/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2014-12-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 08 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  40. # [14:05] <goetsu> Hi, i'm a newbie here I try to fix some a11y bug in gaia
  41. # [14:06] <goetsu> for some of them I need to add an aria-label, can anyone tell me the way to do it well to handle i18n
  42. # [14:19] <goetsu> if I understand it well it something like <span data-l10n-id="mykey"> and mykey.ariaLabel in the locales
  43. # [14:21] <goetsu> I also see that there is a specific locale file for accessibility, accessibility.en-US.properties, is my ariaLabel going here or not ?
  44. # [14:27] <@yzen> goetsu hi
  45. # [14:28] <@yzen> yes regarding localization and .properties files
  46. # [14:29] <@yzen> accessibility file is for screen reader specific strings like roles, element types etc
  47. # [14:29] <goetsu> ok so not for my case
  48. # [14:30] <@yzen> goetsu correct, in your case , all new strings should go into the .properties file that corresponds to the app you are working on
  49. # [14:31] <goetsu> ok
  50. # [14:31] <@yzen> so for music it will be in music/locales
  51. # [14:31] <@yzen> and then just pick music.en-US.properties, other locales will be triggered when that file is updated
  52. # [14:33] <@yzen> goetsu also, make sure you add a comment like this - https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia/blob/master/apps/ftu/locales/ftu.en-US.properties#L164-L165 in front of you entry
  53. # [14:33] * Joins: Gijs (chatzilla@moz-pnd.q6m.80.5.IP)
  54. # [14:33] <@yzen> if you are just adding a single string it should be mentioned in that comment as such: https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia/blob/master/apps/ftu/locales/ftu.en-US.properties#L164-L165
  55. # [14:33] <goetsu> ok
  56. # [14:34] <@yzen> oops wrong link: https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia/blob/master/apps/ftu/locales/ftu.en-US.properties#L294-L295
  57. # [14:34] <goetsu> any pattern to follow in the value name ?
  58. # [14:36] <@yzen> goetsu also regarding the list semantics, i think the original comment mentioned grid but after going over it again, i dont think it fits either that or list/listbox that's why I think we should drop it and just use button on the actual item
  59. # [14:37] <goetsu> ok as you like
  60. # [14:37] * Joins: slee (chatzilla@moz-93hjmp.range81-132.btcentralplus.com)
  61. # [14:39] <@yzen> goetsu value name ?
  62. # [14:43] <goetsu> the value I use in data-l10n-id
  63. # [14:44] <@yzen> goetsu gotcha, anything sensible goes, the only thing i avoid is actually having a label/name/title/[type] prefix, so correct would be "next" and not "nextBotton" or "nextLabel"
  64. # [14:44] <@yzen> that's about it
  65. # [14:44] <@yzen> i mean postfix
  66. # [14:44] <@yzen> goetsu that accessibility- prefix you saw is really a pattern for the accessibility properties file
  67. # [14:44] <@yzen> only
  68. # [14:45] <@yzen> goetsu so you also wanted to know about rebasing ?
  69. # [14:45] <goetsu> yes
  70. # [14:45] <goetsu> https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia/pull/26568 is a good candidate for this I think
  71. # [14:48] <goetsu> I use the github app and terminal (but If you know a GUI where we can do this kind of things and fetching/merging upstream without the terminal I'm interested)
  72. # [14:52] <goetsu> what do I need to do to rebase my local branch to my up to date master branch and merge all the commit in the PR to one
  73. # [14:53] <@yzen> right
  74. # [14:53] <@yzen> so first thing i guess is to get your local master branch up to date with the upstream(official one)
  75. # [14:54] <goetsu> I know how to do that one
  76. # [14:54] <@yzen> ok goo
  77. # [14:54] <@yzen> d
  78. # [14:54] <goetsu> git fetch upstream
  79. # [14:54] <goetsu> git merge upstream/master
  80. # [14:54] <@yzen> goetsu so you want to have 5 commits merged into 1 right ?
  81. # [14:54] <@yzen> goetsu just and fyi, there's 42 files changed there
  82. # [14:56] <goetsu> to update my branch I need to do git merge upstram/nameofmybranch ?
  83. # [14:57] <@yzen> you generally should not need to do that, only if that branch was updated upstream from somewhere else other than your local branch
  84. # [14:58] * agibson|afk is now known as agibson
  85. # [14:59] <@yzen> goetsu, so here's what you need
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  87. # [15:00] <@yzen> goetsu when you merged master into your branch you need to call git rebase -i upstream/master
  88. # [15:01] <goetsu> ok
  89. # [15:01] <@yzen> goetsu you ll see a prompt with a list of your commits
  90. # [15:01] <@yzen> pick bb2b3b7 Bug-1069614
  91. # [15:01] <@yzen> pick 8d539cb add label to cover without visible artiste/album text
  92. # [15:01] <@yzen> pick a3b6282 respect coding style
  93. # [15:01] <@yzen> pick 49c28a3 update
  94. # [15:01] <@yzen> pick 025adf2 cleaning up PR
  95. # [15:03] <@yzen> goetsu actually before that i think that 'update' commit needs to be removed
  96. # [15:03] <@yzen> so cancel rebase
  97. # [15:03] <@yzen> and call git rebase --abort
  98. # [15:04] <@yzen> goetsu let me know when you aborted the rebase
  99. # [15:05] <@yzen> so the SHA for that commit is 49c28a3
  100. # [15:08] <goetsu> i'm a little lost between commande line and the github app, do I need first to select my working branch on the app because I also can go in the history and rollback or revert
  101. # [15:10] <goetsu> sorry
  102. # [15:10] <@yzen> goetsu no worries
  103. # [15:10] <@yzen> lets see
  104. # [15:10] <@yzen> if you are in your branch
  105. # [15:10] <@yzen> perhaps the app will let you delete a particular commit
  106. # [15:10] <@yzen> you need to get rid of the one with the message 'update'
  107. # [15:10] <@yzen> does the app have that option ?
  108. # [15:11] <@yzen> goetsu one sec ill download it too
  109. # [15:11] <goetsu> no but I can revert or rollack to the previous one
  110. # [15:16] <@yzen> goetsu sure do revert of that commit
  111. # [15:16] <@yzen> (it will show up as another commit)
  112. # [15:19] <goetsu> done but the PR still announce 42 files changed
  113. # [15:20] <@yzen> goetsu yeah, it looks like "respect coding style" was reverted instead of "udpate"
  114. # [15:20] <@yzen> so now we need to revert both "Revert "respect coding style"" commit and "update", which is fine
  115. # [15:21] <goetsu> I don't think I can do that with the app
  116. # [15:21] <goetsu> (both at the same time I mean)
  117. # [15:21] <@yzen> goetsu no problem, i think the best app i tried is source tree, it's free but it might ask to create an account within 30 days
  118. # [15:22] <@yzen> also see if you can do one by one
  119. # [15:28] <goetsu> ok I had it in sourcetree
  120. # [15:28] <goetsu> ok I have it in sourcetree
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  122. # [15:29] * ChanServ sets mode: +ao MarcoZ MarcoZ
  123. # [15:30] <&MarcoZ> Good day!
  124. # [15:30] <@yzen> goetsu cool, so first right click on your last revert commit and click reverse
  125. # [15:30] <@yzen> goetsu then pick 'update' commit and click reverse
  126. # [15:31] <goetsu> done
  127. # [15:33] <@yzen> ok great
  128. # [15:33] <@yzen> if you dont mind switch to command line right now as i dont know for sure how to do it in source tree
  129. # [15:33] <goetsu> ok
  130. # [15:33] <@yzen> and type git rebase -i upstream/master
  131. # [15:33] <goetsu> ok
  132. # [15:33] <goetsu> done
  133. # [15:33] <@yzen> paste here your list of commits
  134. # [15:34] <goetsu> pick bb2b3b7 Bug-1069614
  135. # [15:34] <goetsu> pick 8d539cb add label to cover without visible artiste/album text
  136. # [15:34] <goetsu> pick a3b6282 respect coding style
  137. # [15:34] <goetsu> pick 49c28a3 update
  138. # [15:34] <goetsu> pick 025adf2 cleaning up PR
  139. # [15:34] <goetsu> pick 0b6bdb6 Revert "respect coding style"
  140. # [15:34] <@yzen> cool
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  143. # [15:34] <@yzen> so there are instructions underneath but i can explain what you need
  144. # [15:34] <@yzen> you need pick for the first one (pick bb2b3b7 Bug-1069614)
  145. # [15:35] <@yzen> all the other ones , switch the first word pick to s , that stands for squash
  146. # [15:35] <@yzen> also
  147. # [15:36] <&MarcoZ> Gijs: Hi! Not sure if you still look/work at ChatZilla, but if you do, you should also be aware of bug 1108568. :)
  148. # [15:36] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1108568 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Runtime error "TypeError: client.currentObject is undefined @ <chrome://chatzilla/content/static.js>
  149. # [15:36] <@yzen> for the one we are picking, add a message, so instead of just Bug-1069614, write Bug 1069614 - making albums accessible in the main view. or something like that
  150. # [15:36] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1069614 — ASSIGNED, aurelien.levy@free.fr — Albums are not accessible in main view.
  151. # [15:36] <@yzen> goetsu^
  152. # [15:37] <goetsu> ok
  153. # [15:37] <@yzen> so what will happen is that all changes from the commits you listed will be there, but they will all show up as if they were done in the one we are picking
  154. # [15:37] <@yzen> mind you there might possibly be a conflict so watch the logs if it says rebase failed
  155. # [15:38] <@yzen> you would need to fix that before continuing
  156. # [15:38] <goetsu> but the update commit is still in the list
  157. # [15:38] <goetsu> and my wrong revert too
  158. # [15:39] <@yzen> right so we did not revert taht too
  159. # [15:40] <goetsu> it look like the sourcetree changes isn't seen
  160. # [15:40] <@yzen> goetsu hmm, i wonder if source tree repo is linked to the your original one, or another copy was made
  161. # [15:46] <goetsu> I will abort this command and try again
  162. # [15:48] <@yzen> goetsu sounds good, ill go offline for 15 min and will be right back
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  165. # [15:57] <@firebot> fred.wang@free.fr requested needinfo from jwei@jonathanwei.ca on bug 1001634.
  166. # [15:57] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1001634 — NEW, jwei@jonathanwei.ca — Add MathMLAccessible class
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  168. # [16:04] <goetsu> ok I don't find anyway to clean this so i'm stuck for now
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  171. # [16:08] <@yzen> goetsu back
  172. # [16:09] <@yzen> goetsu see you have all commits revered now
  173. # [16:09] * Quits: clown (clown@moz-v6m.c3o.211.205.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  174. # [16:09] <@yzen> goetsu have you tried git rebase -i upstream/master yet ?
  175. # [16:10] <goetsu> yes but now I have
  176. # [16:10] <goetsu> pick c565996 Bug 1055357 remove role search and replace styling
  177. # [16:10] <goetsu> pick a535f0f BUG 1068713 add textbox
  178. # [16:10] <goetsu> pick 4086345 Revert c565996..a535f0f
  179. # [16:10] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1055357 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Compose message form has a misleading role of "search"
  180. # [16:10] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1068713 — FIXED, nobody@mozilla.org — compose screen: email body should have role textbox
  181. # [16:10] <goetsu> pick 96582c5 Revert "Bug 1055357 remove role search and replace styling"
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  183. # [16:13] <goetsu> I think it's the mess in my local directory now
  184. # [16:16] * Joins: davidb (davidb@moz-5d550r.dsl.bell.ca)
  185. # [16:16] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  186. # [16:16] <~davidb> heyo
  187. # [16:18] <&MarcoZ> Heyo davidb!
  188. # [16:19] <~davidb> hi hi h i
  189. # [16:24] <~davidb> MarcoZ, how accessible is Trello? Is it usable?
  190. # [16:25] <@yzen> goetsu no worries
  191. # [16:26] <@yzen> we can try an alternative
  192. # [16:26] <@yzen> which should work
  193. # [16:26] <@yzen> so you are in your branch
  194. # [16:26] <@yzen> if you do git diff upstream/master, does it only show your necessary changes now ?
  195. # [16:27] <goetsu> no it show me some changes but not mine
  196. # [16:40] <&MarcoZ> davidb: The basics should be, like reading the texts and also creating new cards or so. Haven't actually ever had access to anything more advanced, so don't know if I could rearrange cards or such. It's...well...just another web app with only limited accessibility.
  197. # [16:40] <~davidb> MarcoZ, can you get info about the current column? Cards are arranged in columns.
  198. # [16:41] <&MarcoZ> davidb: I actually wouldn't know where to look for that. I am currently not part of any project on Trello.
  199. # [16:41] <&MarcoZ> Last time was a while ago while coordinating something for a podcast I participated in.
  200. # [16:41] <~davidb> yzen, can you add MarcoZ to the ffos a11y one?
  201. # [16:42] <@yzen> of course
  202. # [16:42] <&MarcoZ> yzen: I should probably get an account with my MoCo e-mail address first.
  203. # [16:42] <~davidb> yeah
  204. # [16:42] <@yzen> MarcoZ ill send you a linke
  205. # [16:42] <goetsu> is there a way to reset my local master branch to fresh source of the remote without breaking the open PR i've done using specific branch ?
  206. # [16:43] <@yzen> sent
  207. # [16:46] <@yzen> goetsu so what you can do is (since you have SHA for all the commits that you actually need) :
  208. # [16:47] <@yzen> goetsu: switch to you local master and make sure it's up to date with upstream
  209. # [16:47] <@yzen> goetsu make a new branch : git checkout -b tmp
  210. # [16:47] <@yzen> goetsu then do the following:
  211. # [16:47] <@yzen> git cherry-pick bb2b3b7
  212. # [16:48] <@yzen> git cherry-pick 8d539cb
  213. # [16:48] <goetsu> it's up to date but with 6 commits ahead due to previous wrong manipulation
  214. # [16:48] <@yzen> git cherry-pick a3b6282
  215. # [16:48] <@yzen> ok
  216. # [16:48] <@yzen> so then switch to branch other than master
  217. # [16:48] <@yzen> and do git branch -D master
  218. # [16:49] <&MarcoZ> davidb: Are the columns these things that have headings such as "Gaia To Do", "Accessibility" etc.?
  219. # [16:49] <goetsu> any other one or a new one ?
  220. # [16:49] <@yzen> any one existing
  221. # [16:49] <~davidb> MarcoZ, probably. cc yzen
  222. # [16:49] <@yzen> just temporarily
  223. # [16:49] <@yzen> then do: git fetch upstream master:master
  224. # [16:49] * ~davidb is perusing platform trello ATM
  225. # [16:50] * Joins: maxli (maxli@moz-fs8bmd.cs.uwaterloo.ca)
  226. # [16:50] <@yzen> MarcoZ you're admin now
  227. # [16:50] <goetsu> done
  228. # [16:50] <&MarcoZ> yzen: Thanks!
  229. # [16:51] <@yzen> goetsu ok great, now go back to that new master branch: git checkout master, it should be up to date
  230. # [16:51] <goetsu> Already on 'master'
  231. # [16:51] <@yzen> goetsu, then proceed starting from where i wrote: "goetsu make a new branch : git checkout -b tmp"
  232. # [16:51] <~davidb> surkov, are you following gecko <picture> implementation?
  233. # [16:53] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afk
  234. # [16:53] <@yzen> goetsu last cherry pick after the 3 above: git cherry-pick 025adf2
  235. # [16:53] <goetsu> ok done
  236. # [16:53] <@yzen> this new tmp branch should now have just your 4 commits if all applied well
  237. # [16:54] <goetsu> yes
  238. # [16:54] <@yzen> goetsu great
  239. # [16:54] <@yzen> now
  240. # [16:54] <@yzen> we try our rebase :)
  241. # [16:54] <@yzen> git rebase -i master
  242. # [16:55] <goetsu> pick 9ef697b Bug-1069614
  243. # [16:55] <goetsu> pick 30ae477 add label to cover without visible artiste/album text
  244. # [16:55] <goetsu> pick 64ec1f1 respect coding style
  245. # [16:55] <goetsu> pick a329774 cleaning up PR
  246. # [16:55] <goetsu> pick the first and s for the oters ?
  247. # [16:55] <@yzen> goetsu, great, mark all except the top one with s instead of pick and change the message for the top one
  248. # [16:56] <@yzen> yes
  249. # [16:56] <@yzen> then proceed
  250. # [16:58] <@surkov> davidb: I didn’t, bug number?
  251. # [16:59] <goetsu> done
  252. # [16:59] <~davidb> surkov, e.g. bug 1017875
  253. # [16:59] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1017875 — ASSIGNED, john@pointysoftware.net — Pref on the picture element by default
  254. # [17:00] <@yzen> goetsu if you then do git log you will only see your new commit, does ?
  255. # [17:00] <@yzen> it look like that
  256. # [17:02] <goetsu> I see mine and three other one but not mine
  257. # [17:02] <goetsu> I see mine and three other one but not comming from me
  258. # [17:03] <goetsu> commit 65e97a2624638c726cce27f0b7af81952a5f312b
  259. # [17:03] <goetsu> Author: Douglas Sherk <github@sherk.me>
  260. # [17:03] <goetsu> commit 913580b0bf4caa5bf6dd2828aebf3e8387833a29
  261. # [17:03] <goetsu> Author: Doug Sherk <github@sherk.me>
  262. # [17:03] <goetsu> commit 1c636b94778d83cabccfa877400941ab4ef776f5
  263. # [17:03] <goetsu> Author: Ryan VanderMeulen <rvandermeulen@mozilla.com>
  264. # [17:04] <@yzen> that's fine
  265. # [17:04] <goetsu> ok
  266. # [17:04] <@yzen> goetsu just to make sure, can you push it so we dont loose anything ?
  267. # [17:05] <goetsu> done
  268. # [17:05] <@yzen> goetsu ok looks good
  269. # [17:05] <@yzen> so lets get rid of the old branch
  270. # [17:06] <@yzen> git branch -D Bug-1069614---Albums-are-not-accessible-
  271. # [17:06] <@yzen> git checkout -b Bug-1069614---Albums-are-not-accessible-
  272. # [17:06] <@yzen> git branch -D tmp
  273. # [17:06] <@yzen> git push -f origin Bug-1069614---Albums-are-not-accessible-
  274. # [17:08] <goetsu> done
  275. # [17:08] * Tomcat|sheriffduty is now known as Tomcat
  276. # [17:09] <@yzen> goetsu nice, so you can see now you only have one commit
  277. # [17:09] <@yzen> with the right changes
  278. # [17:09] * Tomcat is now known as Tomcat|afk
  279. # [17:09] <goetsu> \o/
  280. # [17:12] <@yzen> goetsu cool i think you can ask for a review now again, but i think you would still have to update the commit message before we put it in, if that;s ok with you
  281. # [17:12] <goetsu> ok
  282. # [17:15] <goetsu> How can i do that ?
  283. # [17:17] * Joins: slee (chatzilla@moz-93hjmp.range81-132.btcentralplus.com)
  284. # [17:18] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1108607 filed by jmathies@mozilla.com.
  285. # [17:18] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1108607 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Touch input devices have e10s disabled due to accessibility
  286. # [17:26] <@yzen> goetsu so if you want to change last commit (which is the case here) simply do the following:
  287. # [17:27] <@yzen> (from your branch)
  288. # [17:27] <@yzen> git reset --soft 'HEAD^'
  289. # [17:27] <@yzen> then , optionally, make the changes to the commit, stage them (here not necessary)
  290. # [17:27] <@yzen> and then do
  291. # [17:28] <@yzen> git commit -c ORIG_HEAD
  292. # [17:28] <@yzen> and make sure to change the message up top to something like: Bug 1069614 - making albums accessible in the main view
  293. # [17:28] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1069614 — ASSIGNED, aurelien.levy@free.fr — Albums are not accessible in main view.
  294. # [17:28] <@yzen> and then do git push -f origin {your branch name}
  295. # [17:31] * Quits: slee (chatzilla@moz-93hjmp.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  296. # [17:51] <goetsu> after git reset nothing happen
  297. # [17:52] * Quits: &MarcoZ (marco.zehe@moz-tb35md.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Curing jetlag...)
  298. # [17:53] <~davidb> surkov, hi
  299. # [17:54] <goetsu> in the app the commit appear as uncommited
  300. # [17:55] <goetsu> I can change the name in the app or how to change it with command line ?
  301. # [17:55] <@surkov> hi, davidb
  302. # [17:56] <@yzen> goetsu lets see, so did you do any of the steps starting from git reset --soft 'HEAD^' (in terminal)
  303. # [17:56] <@yzen> ?
  304. # [17:56] <goetsu> i've done the git reset
  305. # [17:57] <@yzen> ok yes
  306. # [17:57] <@yzen> after that step your changes will look like they are uncommitted
  307. # [17:57] <goetsu> yes
  308. # [17:57] <@yzen> so all you need to do now, in terminal is the git commit command
  309. # [17:57] <@yzen> and you ll get another prompt to change the commit message, the same one you'd get if you were just committing
  310. # [17:58] <@yzen> e.g. git commit -c ORIG_HEAD
  311. # [17:59] <goetsu> ok but for info in the app there is two others commits who appear I don't know why
  312. # [18:00] <goetsu> it look to come from previous commits in other branches I don't know why they show up here
  313. # [18:00] <@yzen> i m not entirely sure what state the app shows, but i would trust the terminal that if all goes well , you will only have your one commit on top
  314. # [18:00] <goetsu> ok so i do git commit -c ORIG_HEAD ?
  315. # [18:01] <goetsu> only one appear
  316. # [18:01] <goetsu> Bug-1069614 final cleanup off PR
  317. # [18:01] <goetsu> I change it to Bug 1069614 - making albums accessible in the main view
  318. # [18:01] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1069614 — ASSIGNED, aurelien.levy@free.fr — Albums are not accessible in main view.
  319. # [18:02] <@yzen> goetsu nice
  320. # [18:02] <@yzen> i think that should do it
  321. # [18:02] <goetsu> done
  322. # [18:02] <@yzen> goetsu nice, after that just do git push -f origin Bug-1069614---Albums-are-not-accessible-
  323. # [18:03] <@yzen> to update the remote branch
  324. # [18:03] <goetsu> done
  325. # [18:03] <@yzen> goetsu nice : https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia/pull/26568/commits
  326. # [18:04] <@yzen> goetsu mark your pull request attachment with r? for jim porter and a11y-r? for me, ill test it on device then
  327. # [18:06] <goetsu> done too
  328. # [18:08] <@yzen> goetsu \o/ thanks!
  329. # [18:08] <goetsu> thanks for your patience
  330. # [18:09] <@yzen> no worries, the git workflow is a little tricky, i still dont remember many things myself, and rely on terminal history big time :)
  331. # [18:09] <goetsu> I think I will ask you again for the next one for the rebase thing hopping this time I will have less trouble
  332. # [18:14] <@yzen> goetsu any time
  333. # [18:26] <@yzen> goetsu are you familiar with python ?
  334. # [18:30] <goetsu> not much I'm more a front end a11y expert than backend
  335. # [18:32] * Quits: maxli (maxli@moz-fs8bmd.cs.uwaterloo.ca) (Quit: Leaving.)
  336. # [18:32] <~davidb> tbsaunde, does it make sense to assign bug 1098386 to you?
  337. # [18:32] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1098386 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — talos a11y crashes when run in e10s mode
  338. # [18:32] * Joins: slee (chatzilla@moz-93hjmp.range81-132.btcentralplus.com)
  339. # [18:32] <goetsu> and most of the time I do only audit, teaching and consulting on a11y not the fix myself so still a bit rusty as you see with git and javascript
  340. # [18:38] <tbsaunde> davidb: sure
  341. # [18:41] <~davidb> thnx
  342. # [18:47] <@yzen> goetsu one thing we try to do on gaia atm is to write some ui integration tests to make sure our a11y fixes do not regress, they are however written in python (though there are plenty of examples already). would you be interested to try for this bug ?
  343. # [18:48] <goetsu> I could try
  344. # [18:49] <@yzen> goetsu i think we can actually open a follow up bug for that to not stop this one from getting in
  345. # [18:51] <joanie> surkov: ping
  346. # [18:54] <@surkov> joanie: pong
  347. # [18:54] <joanie> surkov: Hey, so.... subroles! coming to Atk. :)
  348. # [18:54] <joanie> Piñeiro does not want AtkRole explosion
  349. # [18:54] <@surkov> makes sense
  350. # [18:54] <joanie> and what Apple does for AX API seems to work
  351. # [18:54] <joanie> cool
  352. # [18:55] <joanie> so later this week -- maybe even tomorrow
  353. # [18:55] <@surkov> I don’t like strings but it seems nobody invented any better
  354. # [18:55] <@surkov> and it’s extensible
  355. # [18:55] <joanie> We'll they will not be strings
  356. # [18:55] <joanie> they will be added to an enum
  357. # [18:55] <@surkov> ok L)
  358. # [18:55] <joanie> just like is done for AtkRole
  359. # [18:55] <@surkov> that’s c++ish :)
  360. # [18:55] <joanie> The exact API remains to be seen
  361. # [18:55] <@surkov> is there proposal?
  362. # [18:56] <joanie> ish, yes
  363. # [18:56] <@surkov> cool
  364. # [18:56] <joanie> lemme find the bug
  365. # [18:56] <@surkov> is it subroles or many roles?
  366. # [18:56] <joanie> it's not a full proposal yet
  367. # [18:56] <@surkov> that’s ok
  368. # [18:56] <joanie> there's not a patch yet
  369. # [18:56] <joanie> but ....
  370. # [18:56] * joanie looks
  371. # [18:56] <@surkov> I need make sure I cath the idea
  372. # [18:56] <joanie> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=739140 is the full thing
  373. # [18:57] <joanie> btw, it's not really going to be atk_role_stuff_...
  374. # [18:58] <joanie> Piñeiro and I didn't know what to call it
  375. # [18:58] <joanie> but the idea is that there will be an atk_object_get_role_foo()
  376. # [18:58] <joanie> and an AtkRoleFoo
  377. # [18:58] <@surkov> what is Foo?
  378. # [18:58] <joanie> stuff
  379. # [18:58] <joanie> info
  380. # [18:59] <joanie> name we don't yet have
  381. # [18:59] <joanie> the problem is we have one free pad left for AtkObject
  382. # [18:59] <joanie> and we need both subrole and localized role name
  383. # [18:59] <@surkov> like atk_object_get_subrole?
  384. # [18:59] <joanie> the latter for ARIA
  385. # [18:59] <joanie> surkov: that was the original plan
  386. # [18:59] * icaaq|afk is now known as icaaq
  387. # [19:00] <joanie> but we need subrole and we need (for aria) the ability for a "customized" "localized" role name
  388. # [19:00] <joanie> the latter I'm not jazzed about
  389. # [19:00] <tbsaunde> why does localizing the string need to happen on our side? its the same strings for all apps right?
  390. # [19:00] <joanie> but others are
  391. # [19:00] <joanie> no sir
  392. # [19:00] <joanie> the idea is:
  393. # [19:00] <joanie> if we have "chapter" role (dpub)
  394. # [19:01] <joanie> but the publishing industry wants jaws to say "canto" instead of "chapter"
  395. # [19:01] <tbsaunde> where chapter is something atk doesn't now about
  396. # [19:01] <joanie> but just in Dante's Inferno....
  397. # [19:01] <joanie> there will be a chapter subrole
  398. # [19:01] <joanie> this came up at TPAC btw
  399. # [19:02] <tbsaunde> I'm very tempted to just say no
  400. # [19:02] <joanie> anyhoo, the idea is not role registration or role replacement
  401. # [19:02] <joanie> it's a way to provide an speakable string without stomping on a role
  402. # [19:02] <joanie> done by authors via aria
  403. # [19:03] <joanie> but only in specific cases
  404. # [19:03] <joanie> apparently AX API supports it, UIA supports it, MSAA supports it
  405. # [19:03] <joanie> and a lot of people want it
  406. # [19:03] <joanie> so we're going to be stuck with it
  407. # [19:03] <@surkov> are there implementations?
  408. # [19:03] <joanie> not yet because I don't think it's in the spec *yet*
  409. # [19:04] <tbsaunde> well, afaik msaa just uses strings so I think you stomp on the "real" role?
  410. # [19:04] <@surkov> I see
  411. # [19:04] <joanie> tbsaunde: I am not sure
  412. # [19:04] <joanie> but the MS person is fine with it
  413. # [19:04] <tbsaunde> joanie: doesn't mean I have to be fine with us implementing it ;)
  414. # [19:04] <joanie> surkov: anyhoo, for now you would just return an empty/null value for localized role name
  415. # [19:04] <@surkov> yeah, that’s what we do for other APIs :)
  416. # [19:05] <joanie> tbsaunde: then you can continue to return an empty/null value
  417. # [19:05] <joanie> what I really need is subroles
  418. # [19:05] <joanie> and the only reason we are now talking about this other crap is because I wanted to explain why it is probably not going to be atk_object_get_subrole
  419. # [19:05] <joanie> but if making it atk_object_get_subrole would make you give me subroles
  420. # [19:05] <joanie> I'll make it that
  421. # [19:06] <joanie> :)
  422. # [19:06] <joanie> so are we ok with subroles tbsaunde ?
  423. # [19:06] <@surkov> I still don’t follow about naming
  424. # [19:06] <joanie> naming what?
  425. # [19:06] <@surkov> subrole vs role_stuff
  426. # [19:06] <~davidb> (the MSAA role hack is because callers can check variant.vt == VT_BSTR)
  427. # [19:07] <joanie> we have one free pad
  428. # [19:07] <joanie> in AtkObject
  429. # [19:07] <joanie> if we want to have atk_object_get_subrole()
  430. # [19:07] <joanie> AND
  431. # [19:07] <joanie> atk_object_get_localized_rolename()
  432. # [19:07] <joanie> and we have one free pad
  433. # [19:07] <joanie> we cannot have both
  434. # [19:07] <joanie> furthermore
  435. # [19:07] <@surkov> it sounds like you have to deal with it sooner or later
  436. # [19:08] <joanie> why have multiple calls (atk_object_get_role(), atk_object_get_subrole(), and atk_object_get_localized_rolename()
  437. # [19:08] <joanie> ?
  438. # [19:08] <tbsaunde> joanie: I have no objection to the idea of subroles
  439. # [19:08] <@surkov> I meant you will need a new mehtod in a while
  440. # [19:08] <joanie> we could instead have atk_object_get_all_the_freaking_role_crap()
  441. # [19:08] <@surkov> while you evolve
  442. # [19:08] <joanie> which would provide role, subrole, and localized rolename (aka NULL)
  443. # [19:08] <joanie> ;)
  444. # [19:09] * Quits: slee (chatzilla@moz-93hjmp.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  445. # [19:09] <~davidb> heh
  446. # [19:09] <@surkov> one call I think is preferable if you need to fetch all at once
  447. # [19:09] <joanie> davidb: you approve of my new method name?
  448. # [19:09] <~davidb> sure
  449. # [19:09] <@yzen> goetsu bug 1108662 if you are interested :)
  450. # [19:09] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1108662 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Write gaia-ui tests for click on album from main view.
  451. # [19:10] <~davidb> joanie, subrole?
  452. # [19:10] <joanie> surkov: ok, one call it is. And david says I can include the word "crap" in the method.
  453. # [19:10] <joanie> davidb: like AX API has
  454. # [19:10] <@surkov> joanie: yeah, I think I would name it internally somehow else :)
  455. # [19:10] <joanie> Piñeiro does not want role explosion
  456. # [19:10] <~davidb> wait a minute :)
  457. # [19:10] <~davidb> oh atk_object_get_all_the_freaking_role_crap, yeah perfect.
  458. # [19:11] <joanie> davidb++
  459. # [19:11] <joanie> ;)
  460. # [19:11] <~davidb> :)
  461. # [19:11] <goetsu> is there an easy way to know what file to change when you have found the bug in the source code ?
  462. # [19:12] <~davidb> joanie, is the idea that subrole is easily extensible?
  463. # [19:12] <~davidb> (custom roles)
  464. # [19:12] <goetsu> for exemple I try to find where is the <span class="remove"></span> used on the homescreen app in edit mode to remove the app
  465. # [19:12] <~davidb> or just that roles.h is too big
  466. # [19:12] <@surkov> by Piñeiro yes :)
  467. # [19:12] <~davidb> :)
  468. # [19:12] <~davidb> roles1.h roles2.h ...
  469. # [19:13] <joanie> davidb: easily, no more so than role
  470. # [19:13] <~davidb> poop
  471. # [19:13] <joanie> the idea is that we make role a more general (smaller set)
  472. # [19:13] <joanie> and then refine via subrole
  473. # [19:13] <joanie> so given ATK_ROLE_TABLE
  474. # [19:13] <joanie> subroles might be:
  475. # [19:14] <~davidb> i wonder if AT would just end up always checking
  476. # [19:14] <joanie> ATK_SUBROLE_GRID, and
  477. # [19:14] <@surkov> that’s good for web/app extensibility
  478. # [19:14] <@surkov> when no new widgets but all widgets gets more specialized
  479. # [19:14] <joanie> ATK_SUBROLE_LAYOUT_TABLE
  480. # [19:15] <joanie> and ATK_SUBROLE_DATA_TABLE
  481. # [19:15] <joanie> and ...
  482. # [19:15] <~davidb> ATK_ROLE_COMBOBOX, ATK_SUBROLE_FUGLY_CAROUSEL
  483. # [19:15] <~davidb> COMBOBOX/RADIOGROUP
  484. # [19:15] <joanie> for buttons:
  485. # [19:15] <joanie> role: button
  486. # [19:15] <@yzen> goetsu im afraid it's based on what your editor can do, i use sublime so i would search for .remove or even remove across the whole apps/verticalhome
  487. # [19:16] <joanie> subroles: push, toggle, checkbox, radiobutton, ....
  488. # [19:16] <joanie> also color chooser, file upload, ....
  489. # [19:16] <~davidb> ok
  490. # [19:16] <joanie> if you think of all the new HTML input types
  491. # [19:16] <~davidb> what about control patterns?
  492. # [19:16] <joanie> do we really want new entry roles for all of those?
  493. # [19:17] <joanie> you mean UIA stuff?
  494. # [19:17] <~davidb> yeah
  495. # [19:17] <joanie> or AtkAction?
  496. # [19:17] <~davidb> no
  497. # [19:17] <joanie> we're thinking about looking at what UIA does, but it won't happen this release cycle
  498. # [19:17] <joanie> (if I had to bet)
  499. # [19:17] <~davidb> i guess a larger question... should we step back and look at all the desktop APIs, ARIA, IndieUI and go drinking
  500. # [19:18] <tbsaunde> davidb: we shouldn't look and go directly to the gas station
  501. # [19:18] <joanie> yes to booze. I need to work on the stuff I'm in spain for.
  502. # [19:18] <tbsaunde> (to get gas to burn it all down with)
  503. # [19:19] <~davidb> oh right you are in spain
  504. # [19:19] <~davidb> tbsaunde :)
  505. # [19:19] <~davidb> ok well getting surkov's thumb up is important
  506. # [19:19] <~davidb> (if we want convergence)
  507. # [19:19] <goetsu> that what I do but something like more than 700 results :(
  508. # [19:19] <~davidb> (and i know you know this and i am interrupting)
  509. # [19:20] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afk
  510. # [19:21] <@surkov> I think I like the idea of subroles. I would show the proposal to Jamie to see if it’s something we want on IA2
  511. # [19:23] <fredw> Hi everybody. I'm also in Spain with Joanie. The other thing we discussed was about creating "fake accessibles" for the MathML scripted elements.
  512. # [19:23] <fredw> I think tbsaunde said yesterday that it would be doable
  513. # [19:24] <~davidb> mphantom?
  514. # [19:24] <~davidb> or is that something different?
  515. # [19:25] <fredw> davidb: no not mphantom. For mphantom and other invisible things, we probably don't want to expose them at all (at least for ATK)
  516. # [19:25] <~davidb> ok
  517. # [19:27] <fredw> It's for example for <msubsup>BASE SUBSCRIPT SUPERSCRIPT</msubsup> and <msup>BASE SUPERSCRIPT</msup>. We want to create only a single "scripted" role for the two elements and create a fake empty "subscript" for the latter so that they both have the same structure
  518. # [19:27] <fredw> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/accessibility/20141207#l-64
  519. # [19:37] <fredw> davidb surkov tbsaunde these are the notes taken by joanie:
  520. # [19:37] <fredw> Had a very long, but ultimately productive, discussion regarding
  521. # [19:37] <fredw> script-related elements. Under consideration: subrole-only approach,
  522. # [19:37] <fredw> using AtkRelation, fake accessible/parent usage.
  523. # [19:37] <fredw> The problem with <mmultiscripts> is primarily its significant
  524. # [19:37] <fredw> reliance upon DOM child position:
  525. # [19:37] <fredw> * first child (index 0) is the base
  526. # [19:37] <fredw> * odd-indexed children prior to <mprescripts> are post subscripts
  527. # [19:37] <fredw> * even-indexed children prior to <mprescripts> are post superscripts
  528. # [19:37] <fredw> * to preserve the above indexing, <none /> is used for missing post
  529. # [19:37] <fredw> {sub,super}scripts
  530. # [19:37] <fredw> * the presence of <none /> means you have useless/empty accessibles
  531. # [19:37] <fredw> * <mprescripts> cannot have children so the element is a marker
  532. # [19:37] <fredw> * if you do not expose <mprescripts>, the missing marker means ATs
  533. # [19:37] <fredw> don't know when post ends and pre begins
  534. # [19:37] <fredw> * if you do expose <mprescripts>, the even/odd indexing is reversed
  535. # [19:37] <fredw> for prescripts (odd == pre superscript; even == pre subscript)
  536. # [19:37] <fredw> * related aside, there is no <mpostscripts>
  537. # [19:37] <fredw> Given the above, one (ugly) option:
  538. # [19:37] <fredw> * ATK_SUBROLE_MATH_SCRIPTED (there would be no sub/sup subrole)
  539. # [19:37] <fredw> * base is always first child
  540. # [19:37] <fredw> * New AtkRelation types (multiple targets with some targets possibly
  541. # [19:37] <fredw> being null):
  542. # [19:37] <fredw> - ATK_RELATION_PRE_SUBSCRIPT
  543. # [19:37] <fredw> - ATK_RELATION_PRE_SUPERSCRIPT
  544. # [19:37] <fredw> - ATK_RELATION_POST_SUBSCRIPT
  545. # [19:37] <fredw> - ATK_RELATION_POST_SUPERSCRIPT
  546. # [19:37] <fredw> An alternative solution is:
  547. # [19:37] <fredw> * Expose two fake accessibles: One for pre, one for post.
  548. # [19:37] <fredw> * The children of these fakes would be the actual pre and posts
  549. # [19:37] <fredw> * Subroles: scripted, prescripts, postscripts
  550. # [19:37] <fredw> * Additional fake accessibles for missing sub/sup
  551. # [19:37] <~davidb> feel free to http://pastebin.mozilla.org/
  552. # [19:37] <joanie> guys, all the above notes are not what you want/need
  553. # [19:38] <joanie> the problem with multiscripts is all you care about
  554. # [19:38] <joanie> sorry for the noise
  555. # [19:38] <@surkov> fredw: do you have example of it somewhere
  556. # [19:38] <fredw> surkov: example of mmultiscripts?
  557. # [19:38] <@surkov> yes
  558. # [19:38] <fredw> surkov: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/MathML/Element/mmultiscripts
  559. # [19:39] <joanie> the tl;dr version is: the MathML <mprescripts /> screws everything up
  560. # [19:39] <joanie> and the MathML spec should be fixed
  561. # [19:39] <joanie> but until that happens.... ;)
  562. # [19:40] <@surkov> is there proposal for mahtmL somwhere?
  563. # [19:40] <fredw> surkov: proposal for MathML ATK support?
  564. # [19:40] <@surkov> no for changing mathml spec agains mprescripts stuff
  565. # [19:41] <fredw> surkov: no
  566. # [19:41] <@surkov> I’m curious if that’s somethign that should be really changed
  567. # [19:41] <joanie> not yet
  568. # [19:41] <joanie> I plan to email the list soon (MathML WG list)
  569. # [19:41] <@surkov> ok, good
  570. # [19:41] <joanie> I discovered this horrible situation yesterday
  571. # [19:41] <joanie> and fredw doesn't think it will change overnight
  572. # [19:41] <@surkov> what’s wrong with it?
  573. # [19:41] <@surkov> it wont’ I bet
  574. # [19:41] <fredw> surkov: at least for the visual rendering it does not really matter because we browse the whole list of children to place the scripts anyway. That might be different for a11y
  575. # [19:42] <joanie> lemme pastebin just the relevant parts of the notes
  576. # [19:42] <@surkov> it sounds like relations approach works fine, no?
  577. # [19:42] <joanie> surkov: http://fpaste.org/157733/
  578. # [19:43] <joanie> surkov: We do NOT need relations for anything other than -- potentially -- mmultiscripts
  579. # [19:43] <joanie> and if we do NOT do the inverse/reciprocal AtkRelations
  580. # [19:43] <joanie> but just the one-way ones
  581. # [19:43] <joanie> bare minimum
  582. # [19:43] <joanie> we have 4 new relations
  583. # [19:43] <joanie> which we have to implement in Atk
  584. # [19:43] <joanie> and Atspi
  585. # [19:43] <joanie> just for this stupid broken spec
  586. # [19:44] * Joins: slee (chatzilla@moz-93hjmp.range81-132.btcentralplus.com)
  587. # [19:44] <@surkov> technically you can traverse the tree without relations?
  588. # [19:44] <joanie> surkov: when we have proper roles and subroles
  589. # [19:44] <@surkov> ok
  590. # [19:44] <joanie> which is not, btw ATK_ROLE_UNKNOWN
  591. # [19:45] <joanie> any more than it's ATK_ROLE_TEXT ;)
  592. # [19:45] <@surkov> :)
  593. # [19:45] <joanie> i.e. the intern's patch might need some fixin'
  594. # [19:45] <@surkov> sure, I just finally realized that we need to have a base and then polish it
  595. # [19:46] <@surkov> I wasn’t really sure about tree hierarchy approach
  596. # [19:46] <@surkov> I liked to see some text based stuff
  597. # [19:46] <@surkov> like map everything into offsets and then provide sets of attributes for the given offset
  598. # [19:46] <@surkov> like describe where I am
  599. # [19:48] <joanie> surkov: not sure I follow you
  600. # [19:48] <@surkov> joanie: I meant I liked to see different kind of API for mathml
  601. # [19:49] <joanie> like....
  602. # [19:49] <@surkov> like no accessibles for mo mb stuff
  603. # [19:49] <@surkov> just say you deal with raw data x+7=something
  604. # [19:49] <joanie> they might ultimately be "foldable" like <span>
  605. # [19:50] <joanie> but until we know that, I think they are ATK_ROLE_STATIC
  606. # [19:50] <joanie> that is what we're going to do in WebKitGtk
  607. # [19:50] <@surkov> I would write here a more comlex expression if I was allowed to :)
  608. # [19:50] <joanie> later we might flatten
  609. # [19:50] <@surkov> but don’t you need as AT to know this is an operator
  610. # [19:50] <fredw> surkov: like <mfrac><mi>x</mi><mn>7</mn></mfrac>
  611. # [19:50] <@surkov> yeah
  612. # [19:51] <joanie> fredw: good example
  613. # [19:51] <joanie> so what do we do with the x and 7?
  614. # [19:51] <joanie> and how do we speak the localized fraction line?
  615. # [19:51] <@surkov> you would have one accessible object for all of that, but then asking for offset stuff you would receive you’re in fract, numberator, at x
  616. # [19:51] <@surkov> something like that
  617. # [19:52] <joanie> surkov: so AtkMath iface?
  618. # [19:52] <@surkov> yeah, that could be
  619. # [19:52] <@surkov> it would be close to text attributes stuff
  620. # [19:52] <joanie> maybe....
  621. # [19:52] <@surkov> but I never moved far on this way
  622. # [19:53] <joanie> uhhhh.... text attributes?
  623. # [19:53] <@surkov> sort of, just bunch of description for some offsets
  624. # [19:53] <joanie> that sounds like AtkHyperlinkImpl
  625. # [19:53] <joanie> and friends
  626. # [19:53] <@surkov> anyway it sounds we deal with hierarchical approach
  627. # [19:53] <joanie> aka the worst API ever
  628. # [19:54] <joanie> at least for now
  629. # [19:54] <joanie> I'm interested in a possible AtkMath iface
  630. # [19:54] <@surkov> I can try to wrtie down the idea
  631. # [19:55] <@surkov> at least to see if it’s reaonable on the paper :)
  632. # [19:55] <joanie> but anything that resembles what happens with hypertext now in Atk (and object attributes and child offsets and ....) sounds icky
  633. # [19:55] <@surkov> still reaosnable :)
  634. # [19:55] <joanie> brand new iface sounds nice
  635. # [19:55] <joanie> ;)
  636. # [20:00] <joanie> surkov: so back to the fake accessibles.... ;)
  637. # [20:00] <@surkov> ok, what is that?
  638. # [20:00] <joanie> the <mprescripts> really should be the parent of the prescripts
  639. # [20:01] <joanie> right now it's an element that is not rendered and functioning as a marker
  640. # [20:01] <@surkov> is fake accessible supposed to be a replacement of relations?
  641. # [20:02] <joanie> not quite
  642. # [20:02] <joanie> functionally the <mprescripts /> says: "The elements which follow are presecripts"
  643. # [20:03] <joanie> the fact that it's not <mprescripts> my prescripts here</mprescripts> completely boggles my mind
  644. # [20:03] <joanie> and means that the child ordering is different before and after that element
  645. # [20:04] <joanie> before the element, odd indexed children are subscripts and even indexed children are superscripts
  646. # [20:04] <joanie> after the element, odd indexed children are superscripts and even indexed children are subscripts
  647. # [20:04] <joanie> thanks MathML WG!
  648. # [20:04] <joanie> :P
  649. # [20:04] <@surkov> it doesn’t look so from example https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/MathML/Element/mmultiscripts
  650. # [20:05] <@surkov> the order is the same or you talk about something else?
  651. # [20:05] <@surkov> I mean d and b are subsripts tehre
  652. # [20:05] <@surkov> they are both at 1st index
  653. # [20:06] <@surkov> markup is rather crazy I agree
  654. # [20:06] <@surkov> but I still dint’ cath fake accesisbles idea
  655. # [20:06] <joanie> surkov: look at how Gecko exposes Example 1
  656. # [20:06] <joanie> child at index 0 is the base
  657. # [20:07] <joanie> child at index 1 is d (sub)
  658. # [20:07] <joanie> child at index 2 is c (sup)
  659. # [20:07] <joanie> child at index 3 is the prescripts
  660. # [20:07] <joanie> child at index 4 is b (sbu)
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  662. # [20:07] <joanie> child at index 5 is a (sup)
  663. # [20:07] <joanie> so subs are 1 and 4
  664. # [20:07] <joanie> sups are 2 and 5
  665. # [20:08] <joanie> what I think example 1 should really have is
  666. # [20:08] <@surkov> right
  667. # [20:08] <joanie> ...
  668. # [20:08] <joanie> <mprescripts>
  669. # [20:08] <joanie> <mi>b</mi>
  670. # [20:08] <joanie> <mi>a</mi>
  671. # [20:09] <joanie> </mprescripts
  672. # [20:09] <joanie> >
  673. # [20:09] <joanie> if that were how it worked, the prescripts would be children of the mprescripts element
  674. # [20:09] <tbsaunde> joanie: its rather odd, but it does have the advantage of being easier to parse
  675. # [20:09] <joanie> you'd have a groupy-role for the mprescripts
  676. # [20:09] <joanie> and the sub, sup order would be consistent
  677. # [20:09] <tbsaunde> well, maybe not if you require the mprescripts to be the last child I guess
  678. # [20:10] <@surkov> joanie: I still not sure what is plan a) file proposal to change mathml or b) try to find ways to map exisitng mathml inot a11y
  679. # [20:11] <joanie> it's a+b
  680. # [20:11] <joanie> I'm going to do A
  681. # [20:11] <joanie> fredw: thinks it will be a hard (impossible) sell
  682. # [20:11] <joanie> in the meantime, I think we can try to make the a11y tree look like what the MathML tree should look like but fails to look like ;)
  683. # [20:12] <joanie> namely a parent element (mprescripts) with children (the prescripts)
  684. # [20:12] <joanie> until MathML WG does my bidding, we can (I think) create a fake accessible or a fake parent
  685. # [20:13] <@surkov> I would avoid changing a11y tree so hard
  686. # [20:14] <joanie> yeah, I know
  687. # [20:14] <joanie> that was my initial reaction
  688. # [20:14] <@surkov> ok :)
  689. # [20:14] <joanie> but then we looked at the *minimum* required relations
  690. # [20:14] <joanie> and it was 4
  691. # [20:14] <joanie> to hack around this specific MathML Spec bug
  692. # [20:14] <@surkov> still, relations are much easiser to implement I think
  693. # [20:14] <joanie> if you want to sell those to Piñeiro go for it
  694. # [20:15] <joanie> ;)
  695. # [20:15] <@surkov> :)
  696. # [20:15] <@surkov> I know he fights for spec purity
  697. # [20:15] <tbsaunde> surkov: what do you do about multiple pre super scripts say?
  698. # [20:15] <joanie> plus, the target list of these relations would potentially be null AtkObjects
  699. # [20:15] <@surkov> but if it makes implementation a nightmare it’s probably not worth it
  700. # [20:16] <joanie> so it's all sorts of crazy extra work to hack around a single, and not widely used, spec
  701. # [20:16] <@surkov> tbsaunde: sorry, what do you mean?
  702. # [20:16] <tbsaunde> I have no clue what that looks like on screen, or why you'd support it in the first place
  703. # [20:16] <@surkov> joanie: maybe keep it inaccessible for a while :) at least unitl mathml is fixed the way you like?
  704. # [20:17] <joanie> tbsaunde: on screen it looks as bad as it sounds here. But lemme try:
  705. # [20:17] <joanie> given a base X
  706. # [20:17] <joanie> a presuperscript a
  707. # [20:17] <joanie> a presubscript b
  708. # [20:17] <joanie> a post superscript c
  709. # [20:17] <joanie> and a post subscript d
  710. # [20:17] <joanie> on screen you have:
  711. # [20:18] <joanie> X in the middle. A in the upper left, B in the bottom left, C in the upper right, D in the lower right.
  712. # [20:18] <joanie> make (some) sense?
  713. # [20:18] <@surkov> it sounds with me those scripts are sort of common stuff in math
  714. # [20:18] <tbsaunde> joanie: yeah, that makes sense
  715. # [20:18] <@surkov> when math run out of letters :)
  716. # [20:18] <@surkov> symbols
  717. # [20:18] <tbsaunde> joanie: I wonder about case where you have multiple pre super scripts
  718. # [20:18] <joanie> it gets uglier
  719. # [20:18] <tbsaunde> which this spec seems to allow
  720. # [20:18] <joanie> fredw: remind me where the second and third prescripts go
  721. # [20:20] <joanie> the subsequent post ones definitely extend to the right
  722. # [20:20] <joanie> so with c and d being the first post super and first post sub respectively,
  723. # [20:20] <joanie> the second post super C2 would be immediately to the right of C
  724. # [20:20] <joanie> the second post sub D2 would be immediately to the right of D
  725. # [20:21] <tbsaunde> joanie: ok, I guess that kind of makes sense
  726. # [20:21] <joanie> I forget which way the pres extend, and and fredw isn't sure either so he's making a test case so we can look
  727. # [20:21] <tbsaunde> joanie: doesn't really matter
  728. # [20:21] <joanie> ok
  729. # [20:21] <joanie> like I said, it's as ugly spatially as it is spec-y
  730. # [20:22] <tbsaunde> I'm confused that "a b" as one superscript isn't enough and you need to be able to have "a" and "b" as separate scripts, but anyway it exists
  731. # [20:22] <joanie> a is a superscript
  732. # [20:22] <joanie> b is a subscript
  733. # [20:22] <tbsaunde> which seems problematic for relations idea since AT might want to know order of pre superscripts
  734. # [20:22] <joanie> well, we did figure that out, but it's sad
  735. # [20:23] <joanie> btw, you can have empty scripts
  736. # [20:23] <joanie> like no a, but still b, c, and d
  737. # [20:23] <tbsaunde> sure
  738. # [20:23] <joanie> and because it relies upon element child order
  739. # [20:23] <joanie> missing scripts are <none />
  740. # [20:23] <joanie> so the AtkRelation approach needs multiple targets (already supported)
  741. # [20:24] <tbsaunde> yeah, I wasn't really talking in markup that was too much effort with this syntax, and I don't think tex can express this
  742. # [20:24] <joanie> with the target order being precise and corresponding with the element order
  743. # [20:24] <joanie> not sure if that's guaranteed, but I think it might be in practice
  744. # [20:24] <joanie> and some targets can be null
  745. # [20:24] <tbsaunde> yea, I guess its doable, but seems rather ugly
  746. # [20:25] <joanie> and at that point, we have four new relations, target order matters, targets can be null, and all because the MathML WG was smoking crack when they define <mprescripts>
  747. # [20:25] <joanie> or.... we can have a .... (wait for it) single fake parent
  748. # [20:25] <tbsaunde> joanie: well, its just an empty target set, which already exists
  749. # [20:25] <joanie> not target set
  750. # [20:26] <joanie> single target at a specified index
  751. # [20:26] <joanie> i.e. if you have 4 post super scripts
  752. # [20:26] <joanie> and the 3rd post super script is empty
  753. # [20:26] <joanie> getting the target at index 2 would return a null AtkObject
  754. # [20:27] <tbsaunde> hm, wouldn't you try to get RELATION_PRE_SUPERSCRIPT_OF and get the empty set?
  755. # [20:27] <joanie> no
  756. # [20:27] <joanie> well
  757. # [20:27] <joanie> what if we have 3 pre superscripts
  758. # [20:27] <joanie> and the 2nd one is null
  759. # [20:28] <tbsaunde> I'm not sure this is worth discussing, but why do you need the null?
  760. # [20:28] <joanie> btw the super script and sub script pairs on screen are laid out spatially
  761. # [20:28] <joanie> so let's just talk about post scripts
  762. # [20:28] <joanie> and say we have two pair
  763. # [20:28] <tbsaunde> yeah, just though of needing it for alignment info
  764. # [20:28] <joanie> correct
  765. # [20:28] <joanie> but they get elements
  766. # [20:29] <joanie> and if where the superscript is matters
  767. # [20:29] <joanie> the superscript at position 3 needs to be at position 3
  768. # [20:29] <joanie> not at position 2
  769. # [20:29] <joanie> so if position 2 is empty
  770. # [20:29] <tbsaunde> I'm not absolutely sure, the code to update trees is kind of complex, but I think the fake parent stuff should be much easier
  771. # [20:29] <joanie> ok
  772. # [20:29] <joanie> I think it will be as well
  773. # [20:30] <joanie> and I think that convincing Piñeiro to add four relation types to hack around the MathML spec is not going to go well
  774. # [20:30] <tbsaunde> I just wish we could go back 20 years and find a way to use tex instead of inventing mathml
  775. # [20:30] <joanie> and if the MathML WG does what I think they should, the end result will match the proposed accessible hierarchy accomplished via fake parent
  776. # [20:30] <joanie> which means that MathML fixing their bug won't break ATs
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The end :)