/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-09-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 11 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:04] <anne> hsivonen, your suggestion for looking up and returning false if one of the columns does not contain a header does not work for my table; I'm not sure how important that use case is, but I'm interested in seeing a table with a data cell with colspan that has several different col headers when going up
  4. # [00:04] <anne> (and is still meaningfull or trying to do something meaningfull)
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  6. # [00:12] <anne> krijnh, may I suggest putting rel="nofollow" on the referrer links
  7. # [00:17] <anne> does anyone share the vision Leif has on rowgroup? jgraham?
  8. # [00:17] * anne thinks it's completely wrong
  9. # [00:21] <anne> (in unrelated news, in the last three days three people left the HTML WG, nobody joined)
  10. # [00:25] <jgraham> anne: I think I see where he's coming from but it's impossible to tell what the "correct" interpretation of HTML 4 is.
  11. # [00:26] <anne> oh well, doesn't matter
  12. # [00:26] <anne> I'll wait for actual data
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  14. # [00:26] <anne> or provide more samples with "incorrect" usage
  15. # [00:29] * jgraham hopes to have time to work on the tables stuff tomorrow
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  18. # [00:50] <anne> lol: http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000266.html
  19. # [00:50] <anne> beware of the great Opera conspiracy against accessibility
  20. # [00:53] <anne> also funny: http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000267.html
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  27. # [01:30] <mjs_> yes, actual testing counts for more than the opinion of an official expert
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  29. # [01:30] <mjs> the shocking secret is out
  30. # [01:31] <anne> I wonder where we claimed to have "the one truth"
  31. # [01:31] <anne> or are they still making LotR jokes?
  32. # [01:31] <mjs> no idea
  33. # [01:32] <mjs> I'm not sure how they managed to spin discussing testing and design input as something sinister
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  35. # [01:51] <Philip> hsivonen: Is it bad if I get "org.w3c.dom.DOMException: NAMESPACE_ERR: An attempt is made to create or change an object in a way which is incorrect with regard to namespaces." when using a HtmlDocumentBuilder(XmlViolationPolicy.ALTER_INFOSET) ?
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  37. # [01:59] <Philip> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/tables/sometables.xml - here's some tables
  38. # [01:59] <Philip> If someone can suggest a way to find the ones that are data tables, that'd be handy
  39. # [02:00] <anne> filtering out those whose cell just contains <img> might be a start
  40. # [02:02] <anne> hmm, inventing new HTML tags, btw?
  41. # [02:03] * anne -> bed
  42. # [02:04] <Philip> The <survey> and <header> bits? That's just because I stuck the HTML headers onto the original XML output in a text editor :-)
  43. # [02:06] <anne> I'm not sure why "top of the document" is presentational. Surely class="header" also appears at the top in the source?
  44. # [02:06] <anne> hmm, -> bed
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  46. # [02:21] <Philip> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/tables/th.xml - the ones with <th>
  47. # [02:28] <Philip> jgraham: http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcanvex.lazyilluminati.com%2Fmisc%2Ftables%2Fth.xml&source=&algorithm=html4&scope=1&headers=1 is weird and outputs lots of </tbody> and very few </table>
  48. # [02:32] <emeriste> Dear friends, please make html have a <math> tag so that marking up mathematical equations in HTML will be every bit analogous to making a table or any other rudimentary html thing.
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  50. # [02:39] <Philip> hsivonen: The NAMESPACE_ERR comes when I try parsing a document that says <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
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  52. # [02:40] <Philip> (Crazy HTML authors...)
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  55. # [02:45] <Philip> and on another two sites with xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40", and one site with loads of xmlns=""
  56. # [02:45] <Philip> and I was only running it on 256 sites in total
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  58. # [02:47] <Philip> http://www.google.com/search?q=xmlns%3D%22http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40%22 - oh, it's Microsoft Office again
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  78. # [08:15] <hsivonen> anne: which table? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070911#l-3
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  84. # [08:39] <hsivonen> Philip: re: org.w3c.dom.DOMException: NAMESPACE_ERR : the tree builder lets you do things that vanilla DOM doesn't (see javadoc). So the error might be by design. However, depending on the situation, you may have found a bug.
  85. # [08:39] <hsivonen> Philip: do you have a test file the causes this problem?
  86. # [08:40] <hsivonen> Philip: also, either way it might be a bug if the DOMException leaks without getting wrapped into a SAXException
  87. # [08:41] <hsivonen> Philip: I now saw http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070911#l-50
  88. # [08:42] <hsivonen> Philip: what you are seeing is by design, but by bad design, apparently
  89. # [08:57] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like I need to have two policies for completeness
  90. # [08:59] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should break the API at this point to get better naming or keep the current API and add something with an clumsy name...
  91. # [09:05] <hsivonen> gotta love how this xmlns stuff complicates a *parser* that actually does mapping to an XML infoset...
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  108. # [10:43] <anne> hsivonen, http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/09/tmb-overview (though I was later thinking that if you don't do header -> header it doesn't matter)
  109. # [10:44] <hsivonen> anne: the rule I suggested doesn't apply to your table, because every column in your table has a th spanning it
  110. # [10:44] <hsivonen> so there's no way for a data cell to partially occupy a headerless column
  111. # [10:45] <jgraham> Philip: Oh, I thought I'd fixed that bug :( OK, I'll look at it later
  112. # [10:45] <anne> the question is about the 4 column headers, hsivonen
  113. # [10:45] <anne> do they get associated (or maybe only the first) with the <thead> stuff
  114. # [10:46] <hsivonen> anne: I can't see how that table could ever invoke the rule I suggested
  115. # [10:46] <hsivonen> anne: as there are headers in each col
  116. # [10:47] <anne> I think that's my point
  117. # [10:47] <anne> the "Day ..." headers should not get associated with those headers above
  118. # [10:47] <hsivonen> oh.
  119. # [10:48] <hsivonen> well, the rule I suggested is does not cause bad disassociations for your table
  120. # [10:48] <hsivonen> it just doesn't cause all the disassociations you want
  121. # [10:52] <hsivonen> anne: for associating headers with other headers, it may make sense to require the higher headers to be at least as wide
  122. # [10:53] <anne> hmm ok
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  124. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Philip: fix checked in and new version released
  125. # [11:00] <hsivonen> (not deployed on validator.nu yet)
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  127. # [11:22] <mjs> hmm
  128. # [11:22] <mjs> was my last email to public-html worded too strongly?
  129. # [11:26] * zcorpan_ thinks it was in place
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  134. # [11:50] <marcos> Hey, quick question, if applying the rules for parsing non-negative integers ( http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#rules), would "000200" return 200? (ie, the leading 000 would be dropped in the result ?)
  135. # [11:53] <anne> the result is an integer
  136. # [11:54] <anne> (I think the answer to your question is yes, but I'm not sure I understand the question)
  137. # [11:55] <marcos> The question is not relevant for HTML5.... I'll write it up in WAF :)
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  158. # [13:41] <krijnh> anne: Done (rel="nofollow" for referrers)
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  168. # [14:59] <anne> hmm, takes about a week to move .nl domains around
  169. # [14:59] <anne> pity
  170. # [15:06] <Philip> hsivonen: Thanks!
  171. # [15:07] <Philip> (Looks like it's working for me now)
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  180. # [16:05] <Philip> Someone should find the OCR code that people use to break CAPTCHAs, and use that to generate alt text for images that contain words
  181. # [16:06] <hsivonen> Philip: I thought MTurk-like arrangements are used
  182. # [16:06] <anne> heh, my manager is member of the html4all cabal
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  184. # [16:07] <anne> hsivonen, I'd suggest putting the message to implementors@ also on the blog
  185. # [16:07] <anne> hsivonen, more likely you reach the right people there
  186. # [16:07] <hsivonen> anne: ok
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  189. # [16:30] <Philip> Hmm, ocrad does alright on a few images
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  209. # [18:43] <Philip> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/imgs.xhtml - open-source OCR technology is sadly imperfect :-(
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  211. # [18:57] <gsnedders> Philip: what makes you think that?
  212. # [18:59] <Philip> Something like "Homepage Equipment Emall us cllck hQ_ ror o_ __d handl u__d NDT aqu pmam" starts well but then kind of degenerates into garbage; it'd be better if I could find a way to strip out things that are obviously not useful words
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  245. # [23:32] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  246. # [23:33] * Joins: Bob_le_Pointu (blp@80.248.208.232)
  247. # [23:33] * Quits: Bob_le_Pointu (blp@80.248.208.232) (Quit: Et merde)
  248. # [23:35] * Joins: Bob_le_Pointu (blp@80.248.208.232)
  249. # [23:50] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.139.120.102)
  250. # [23:54] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  251. # [23:54] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Connection reset by peer)
  252. # [23:56] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.14.215) (Ping timeout)
  253. # Session Close: Wed Sep 12 00:00:00 2007

The end :)