/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-29 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Nov 29 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [06:22] <MikeSmith> via markp on #whatwg :
# [06:22] <MikeSmith> http://www.crockford.com/html/
# [06:37] <marcos> re: crockford article, I don't understand why you need a version... seems silly.
# [06:38] <marcos> argh.. I'm not reading any more
# [06:38] <marcos> <meta http-equiv=content-script-type content=application/ecmascript> was enough!
# [06:38] <marcos> :P
# [06:39] <MikeSmith> marcos - I wonder if the <module> idea is worth discussion.
# [06:40] <marcos> yeah, maybe... but still don't think it's any better than Iframe... not that he talks about it in any detail
# [06:41] * marcos takes a look at json module
# [06:41] <MikeSmith> I wonder if he has actually read the HTML5 spec (the real one, I mean)
# [06:41] <MikeSmith> or if he is aware of the related work in the Web API WG
# [06:42] <marcos> from skimming, seems that eventsource does what he what he wants
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# [06:50] * MikeSmith re-reads #public-html logs and finds http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070409
# [06:52] <gavin> you mean #html-wg logs
# [06:53] <MikeSmith> gavin - yeah
# [06:53] <MikeSmith> [[
# [06:53] <MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> was there ever any discussion on the whatwg list of Douglas Crockford's proposal for a <module> tag?
# [06:53] <MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> element
# [06:53] <MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> http://json.org/module
# [06:53] <MikeSmith> <anne> yeah, I think so
# [06:53] <MikeSmith> <anne> but it seems that cross-site XHR and cross document messaging cover both...
# [06:53] <MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> ah, yeah
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <anne> no need for JSONRequest and <module>
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> yeah, I found the thread and reading it now
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> anne - Web API WG is working on spec'ing (or adopting spec for) cross-document messaging? or planning to?
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <anne> nope
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <mjs> what is <module>?
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> mjs - something that Douglas Crockford wrote a proposal for
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> http://json.org/module
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-October/007522.html
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <mjs> sounds like cross-document messaging will work just as well w/o having to introduce a new element
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <mjs> I wish Doug Crockford would follow HTML standards work more closely if he wants to make proposals like that
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <anne> he made that proposal on the whatwg list ages ago
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <anne> i think since then he's sort of convinced that cross-doc is the way to go
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> <anne> but i'm not entirely sure
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> ]]
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> damn, that's longer than I thought it was
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> sorry
# [06:54] <MikeSmith> anyway, it seems that Doug appears to be not yet convinced
# [06:55] <MikeSmith> and also that my memory really sucks
# [06:55] <marcos> I see
# [06:56] * MikeSmith wanders of to eat lunch, which will hopefully improve his memory for the afternoon
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# [08:27] <Hixie> the one thing that d crockford does advocate which i think we will need is data channels that can take data channel end points as data. that basically allows you to create caps-aware components, which would solve many problems.
# [08:29] <mjs> socket passing?
# [08:32] <mjs> (analogue of)
# [08:34] <Hixie> yeah
# [08:36] <mjs> clearly we must amend the charter right away to include this concept
# [08:38] <Hixie> i don't think we should do it in 5.0
# [08:38] <Hixie> we have zero browser experience with the idea
# [08:38] <mjs> true
# [08:39] <mjs> it sounds promising but not solid enough to be a (relatively) late feature addition
# [08:39] <Hixie> yeah
# [08:39] <Hixie> i do think it'd be a good thing for a browser to experiment with though (or gears, or a firefox extension)
# [08:48] <MikeSmith> he writes "... _common capability communication_ mechanism that I am advocating for Google Gears and Adobe AIR"
# [08:48] <MikeSmith> "common capability communication" in ital
# [08:48] <Hixie> yeah that's what i'm referring to
# [08:49] <MikeSmith> search for "common capability communication" turns up zip for me except reddit link to his article
# [08:50] <MikeSmith> so seems like he's not advocated for that publicly, or at least not using that term
# [08:52] <MikeSmith> as an aside, I kinda wonder at times what others at Yahoo think about his evangelism of Gears
# [08:52] <MikeSmith> or maybe evangelism is too strong a word
# [08:52] <MikeSmith> but he does seem to mention it a lot, and always favorably
# [08:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie - btw, do you reckon that having an standard for something Workerpool-like is doable in HTML5 v1?
# [09:10] <MikeSmith> anne - maybe would be good to have a link to the HTML Design Principles doc on html5.org
# [09:11] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, please close ACTION-6
# [09:11] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-6
# [09:11] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-6.
# [09:11] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-6 Create script for building PDF version of HTML5 spec using Prince closed
# [09:11] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, thanks for finally making yourself marginally useful
# [09:13] <shepazu> lol
# [09:15] <Hixie> MikeSmith: "common capability communication" is just a description of what he means, caps-based communication is a pretty well-defined area (though maybe mostly theoretical at the moment)
# [09:15] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
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# [09:16] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i think we're better off pushing worker pools to a 5.x or 6.0 release (or to a webapi spec), they're going to need some pretty detailed new prose and interfaces
# [09:16] <Hixie> MikeSmith: it's also hard to do them before we have caps-based comms or something similar
# [09:17] <Philip> Is http://code.google.com/p/google-caja/ related to that capabilities idea?
# [09:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I see. I guess this does seem like something that would benefit from some browser-implementor experimentation before attempting a standard spec
# [09:20] <MikeSmith> Philip - I see 27 November date on the Caja spec. Is that reflect it being a new project, or just that's the latest update?
# [09:20] * MikeSmith doesn't recognize any of the names on the spec
# [09:20] <MikeSmith> maybe Ben Laurie
# [09:21] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [09:21] <Philip> MikeSmith: The discussion group appears to go back to 30 October
# [09:24] <Hixie> oh is caja public now? yes, that's very much along the lines of what i mentioned. some of the people on that team used to work with douglas
# [09:30] <mjs> MikeSmith: worker pools need a tight definition of what the global scope looks like and which things may work differently than if used on the main thread
# [09:31] <Hixie> worker pools are a three-month project for an experienced spec editor, imho, not counting resolving minor issues in response to later feedback
# [09:35] <MikeSmith> mjs - worker pools seem to help solve some of the fundamental security problems, and if we go by the rule that solving security problems early should always be a priority, I wonder if it's worth trying to drive work on spec'ing and implementing it in the HTML 5.0 time frame
# [09:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie also (above)
# [09:36] <mjs> MikeSmith: I don't think worker pools are really a security solution
# [09:36] <mjs> or at least, that's not the intent
# [09:36] <MikeSmith> OK
# [09:36] <mjs> they are intended to be a concurrency solution
# [09:37] <MikeSmith> right, I do understand that part
# [09:37] <mjs> to avoid blocking the UI with long-running compuation, use convenient sync I/O APIs, and take advantage of increasingly multi-core / multi-cpu hardware
# [09:37] <MikeSmith> about not blocking the UI behavior
# [09:37] <mjs> I think it is a good idea
# [09:37] <mjs> hard to design and implement properly as a core browser feature
# [09:37] <MikeSmith> hmm, OK
# [09:37] <mjs> if we decide to go for it in WebKit, I will give Hixie fair warning
# [09:37] <mjs> many things in a browser are designed around web content mostly doing stuff in a single thread of execution
# [09:38] <mjs> but fortunately Gears worker pools have a good design, shared-nothing threads with message-passing
# [09:39] <MikeSmith> It will be interesting to see what developers end up doing with Gears
# [09:42] * MikeSmith wonders if there is a list somewhere of apps that are actually using Gears (other than Reader)
# [09:44] <Hixie> i agree that worker pools would be good, and the earlier we do them, the better
# [09:44] <Hixie> i just don't think we have the resources to do them at the moment
# [09:44] <Hixie> (standards-wise)
# [09:45] <MikeSmith> I see
# [09:47] * MikeSmith wonders what creative ways could be tried to get some HTML WG and Web API member organizations to volunteer skilled people for spec editing
# [09:48] <Hixie> there are a number of specs far more urgently needed that are in need of editors in webapi
# [09:48] <Hixie> which would be far easier to write than worker pools would
# [09:48] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [09:48] <Hixie> like keyboard events, dom3 events, web dom core, setTimeout, CSSOM...
# [09:49] <Hixie> bindings for dom...
# [09:49] <Hixie> (some of those have putative editors, but they haven't actually done anything in the past few weeks, so...)
# [09:50] <MikeSmith> Yeah, we need to have some good way to punish the wayward editors
# [09:50] <MikeSmith> some stick, along with the carrot
# [09:54] <hober> How many member organizations pay qualified engineers to full-time spec-write?
# [09:55] <MikeSmith> Actually, I'm not sure sometimes what the carrot is this case or how appealing it is; i.e., "Hey! You get to spend months (years) working on writing and tweaking a spec for API X and dealing with potentially massive numbers of comments (including last-call comments) each of which you are expected to take time to respond to in good faith, before it can all be blessed."
# [09:55] <MikeSmith> hober - very few it seems
# [09:55] <MikeSmith> very very few
# [09:55] <hober> right
# [09:55] <hober> I mean, it seems like "lack of qualified and available editors" is a problem readily solved by sufficiently endowed w3c member organizations
# [09:56] <Hixie> actually finding qualified editors is a real problem
# [09:56] <Hixie> there just aren't that many
# [09:56] <Hixie> i've tried finding some to hire, and have basically failed
# [09:57] <hober> Sure. The 90-9-1 breakdown is something like "90% unwilling and unqualified, 9% willing but unqualified, 1% willing and qualified"
# [09:57] <mjs> there's definitely people who are qualified and unwilling
# [09:57] <Hixie> most of the qualified ones are unwilling in this market
# [09:57] <mjs> (due to time constraints)
# [09:57] <Hixie> mjs: also because they know it's a hell of a job
# [09:57] <mjs> that too :-)
# [09:57] <Hixie> same reason i'm qualified to do browser QA but try to do as little of it as possible
# [09:58] <MikeSmith> and I would think the pool of potential spec writers for work related to browsing technologies would be made of largely of people who have probably already been at least somewhat involved in discussions of the HTML5 work and Web API work
# [09:58] <mjs> same reason I'm qualified to do browser engine development by try to -- no, wait, I do it all the time
# [09:58] <mjs> damn
# [09:58] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i think we personally met most of those people in boston
# [09:58] <mjs> it's a hell of a job, but somebody's gotta do it
# [09:58] <Hixie> mjs: that's my approach with spec work :-)
# [09:58] <MikeSmith> clearly what we need here is some kind of cloning device
# [09:59] <Hixie> not sure who you'd want to clone, but at least cloning me wouldn't work
# [09:59] <MikeSmith> let's stop work on HTML5 and get to work on cloning technology
# [09:59] <hober> MikeSmith: actually, public-html would be much more pleasant with lots of hixie clones contributing. :)
# [09:59] <Hixie> since all the clones would want to work on the same part of the same spec :-P
# [09:59] <MikeSmith> heh
# [10:00] <MikeSmith> like when Calvin clones himself to get out of doing his homework and his clone also refuses to do homework, so they make another clone, and another, etc.
# [10:00] <mjs> Hixie: I suspect environmental influence might be enough to make the clones work on slightly different parts
# [10:00] <hober> MikeSmith: yes, exactly what I was thinking of
# [10:02] <MikeSmith> mjs - everybody knows browser development is a joyride
# [10:02] <MikeSmith> especially the bug fixing
# [10:02] <MikeSmith> and the regressions
# [10:02] <Philip> You get to participate in all the fun browser conspiracies
# [10:02] <mjs> MikeSmith: it's almost as exciting as driving a ferarri... into a brick wall
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# [10:11] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-10
# [10:11] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-10.
# [10:11] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-10 Integrate into the Nov. 2007 meeting record the notes that Joshue took during the 2007-11-10 ARIA discussion closed
# [10:16] <MikeSmith> btw, an important decision I made in the last couple days is to try to recruit Kool Keith as the new King of Web Standards
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# [10:18] <Philip> Sadly I have missed out on ever having heard of him before now :-(
# [10:21] <MikeSmith> Philip - you are indeed missing out if you don't know about the many worlds of Kool Keith
# [10:22] <MikeSmith> in case you also missed the excitement of "Blue Beanie Day":
# [10:22] <MikeSmith> http://www.flickr.com/photos/sideshowbarker/2067348343/in/pool-bluebeanieday2007/
# [10:22] <MikeSmith> http://www.flickr.com/photos/sideshowbarker/2067567428/in/pool-bluebeanieday2007/
# [10:22] <MikeSmith> my contributions to that great day in history
# [10:29] <Philip> I am somewhat out of touch with these aspects of the world, I'm afraid
# [10:29] <Philip> Oops, I have to leave five minutes ago
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# [11:03] <MikeSmith> ACTION-19?
# [11:03] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-19
# [11:03] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-19 -- Michael(tm) Smith to work with editors to publish design principles draft -- due 2007-11-22 -- OPEN
# [11:03] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/19
# [11:07] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-19
# [11:07] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-19.
# [11:07] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-19 work with editors to publish design principles draft closed
# [11:17] <hsivonen> Hixie's framing of the FPWD issue on the list makes sense to me
# [11:19] <mjs> me too
# [11:19] <mjs> will probably comment on list later
# [11:19] <mjs> I reread the patent policy today
# [11:19] <mjs> and it seems to me that contents of the charter are completely irrelevant to the patent policy
# [11:19] <mjs> and that review of the FWPD is required no matter what it contains or what the charter says
# [11:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - you mean http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0423.html ?
# [11:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes
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# [12:10] <MikeSmith> close ACTION-5
# [12:10] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-5.
# [12:10] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-5 Make a proposal on the mailing list for the creation of a task force for developer community outreach closed
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# [12:51] <anne> zcorpan, in http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5 you want "and is before the root element" instead of "not after"
# [12:51] <anne> as for letting it depend on the HTML-ness flag, I guess we can try to remove that variable
# [13:03] <zcorpan> anne: what if there isn't a root element?
# [13:03] <zcorpan> yet
# [13:04] <zcorpan> or what's wrong with "not after"?
# [13:08] <anne> <root><?xml-stylesheet ...?> ... </root> <?xml-stylesheet ...?>
# [13:08] <anne> only the second is after, but neither should be applied
# [13:09] <anne> "and is before the root element (if any)"
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# [13:17] <anne> btw, for XSLT it should probably ignore all but the first PI and only adhere href=
# [13:19] <zcorpan> the first isn't child of the Document
# [13:19] <zcorpan> so isn't applied
# [13:19] <zcorpan> yep (re xslt)
# [13:19] <anne> ah, child of Document, missed that
# [13:19] <MikeSmith> Has anybody seen oedipus (Gregory Rosmaita) on here lately?
# [13:20] <MikeSmith> seems like his used to be around but not recently
# [13:20] <anne> you still need to add (if any) to cover the case of not having a root element
# [13:20] <anne> I believe he is only around during telcons
# [13:20] <MikeSmith> anne - kthx
# [13:21] <MikeSmith> close ACTION-26
# [13:21] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-26.
# [13:21] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-26 Work on getting a VCS system set up for storing test cases, by 2007-11-29 closed
# [13:23] <zcorpan> anne: how can it be after the root element when there is no root element? :)
# [13:24] <zcorpan> but i can change the wording to make it clearer
# [13:25] <anne> yeah, it's just that the sentence implies there is a root element
# [13:27] <zcorpan> ok. true
# [13:31] <anne> it would also help I think if the draft mentioned "processing instruction" once
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# [13:44] <zcorpan> yeah. i'll make the spec readable in due course :)
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# [14:05] <smedero> MikeSmith: you are knocking off the ACTIONS today man. go you.
# [14:06] <MikeSmith> smedero - most of them mine own, and overdue
# [14:07] <MikeSmith> so a preemptive strike to avoid getting strafed during the call for having overdue action items
# [14:08] <MikeSmith> and deflect the attention toward all the other slackers who have overdue ones
# [14:11] <smedero> hahaha
# [14:11] * smedero glances over his shoulder... is safe from ACTIONS at the moment.
# [14:12] <smedero> (though I do have some ISSUES i'd like to add... got clear off my real-life job actions first.)
# [14:12] * smedero yawns
# [14:12] <smedero> coffee time
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# [14:22] <Philip> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=405584 - "our preferred browser made all the navigation Icons in out Oracle backed web applications break", hmm, they use <canvas> for that?
# [14:25] <Philip> I guess these people are all relying on Excanvas for IE, which is quite a scary thought
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# [14:54] * Philip hopes IE would be able to implement <canvas> without breaking people who are assuming they'll always get Excanvas behaviour in IE
# [14:59] <zcorpan> should work fine with their versioning idea, no? :)
# [15:07] <DanC> MikeSmith, http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#item03 is missing an action on me to draft a liaison with microformats.org , yes?
# [15:07] <DanC> is the edited IRC log around?
# [15:07] <MikeSmith> reopen ACTION-5
# [15:07] * trackbot-ng attempting to re-open ACTION-5.
# [15:07] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-5 Make a proposal on the mailing list for the creation of a task force for developer community outreach re-opened
# [15:08] <DanC> does it grok "continue ACTION-5", i.e. set the due date to the date of the next meeting?
# [15:08] <DanC> trackbot-ng, help?
# [15:08] <DanC> :-/
# [15:08] <MikeSmith> DanC - no clue on what those minutes might be missing, but IRC log is in the usual place
# [15:09] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-irc.txt
# [15:09] <DanC> that log has any edits you made?
# [15:09] <MikeSmith> DanC - trackbot-ng don't grok continue afaik
# [15:09] <MikeSmith> one "close" and "reopen" verbs
# [15:09] <MikeSmith> I made no edits to the raw logs
# [15:10] <MikeSmith> only the generated minutes
# [15:10] <DanC> oh.
# [15:10] <DanC> ok
# [15:10] <DanC> where are you getting the list of verbs?
# [15:11] * MikeSmith looks for e-mail message from Dom
# [15:12] <MikeSmith> DanC - mail today on w3t-sys
# [15:13] <MikeSmith> you want the URL for archived version?
# [15:15] <DanC> no
# [15:16] <DanC> ACTION: Dan to draft a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with microformats.org regarding @rel values
# [15:16] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [15:16] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-27 - Draft a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with microformats.org regarding @rel values [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-12-06].
# [15:19] <DanC> did Sam Ruby review offline web apps?
# [15:21] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
# [15:23] <MikeSmith> DanC - not as far as I can remember
# [15:24] <DanC> I just reviewed public-html mail from Sam Ruby and I don't see it.
# [15:25] * MikeSmith just did the same
# [15:26] <MikeSmith> only 2 message from him since October, both replies to mjs " A bit of electioneering on the <canvas> charter issue " message
# [15:28] <MikeSmith> DanC - no agenda for today's call posted to list yet
# [15:30] <DanC> yes, there was
# [15:30] <DanC> Subject: HTML WG Teleconference 29 November
# [15:30] <DanC> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:47:27 -0800 (10:47 CST)
# [15:31] <DanC> it didn't go to -announce, and it doesn't have "agenda" in the subject; you can fix both of those if you like
# [15:32] <DanC> I think maybe our list of surveys should go in the nav bar on the WG homepage. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/
# [15:33] <DanC> odd... the tasks survey closed before the formal requirement survey. I think I fat-fingered the dates when I extended the survey
# [15:36] <DanC> ACTION: Dan to consult with the Hypertext CG and W3C management about how much time W3C member organizations should be allowed to study the patent implications of an HTML 5 spec 1st WD
# [15:36] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [15:36] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-28 - Consult with the Hypertext CG and W3C management about how much time W3C member organizations should be allowed to study the patent implications of an HTML 5 spec 1st WD [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-12-06].
# [15:38] <MikeSmith> DanC - I added a Surveys link on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/
# [15:38] <DanC> cool
# [15:39] <MikeSmith> that page is currently in an unfinished state of re-mangling I started on it yesterday and put on the back burner
# [15:42] <DanC> I expect one of us will get an urge to re-mangle it every couple weeks.
# [15:42] <MikeSmith> I changed the heads to blue but olivier and karl then told me some cat named Jakob Nielsen who they seem to sort of worship and whose decrees they accept without question said that blue heads are forbidden
# [15:42] <MikeSmith> but well, I like blue
# [15:42] * DanC is a Nielsen fan too
# [15:42] <DanC> have you read Nielsen's argument?
# [15:43] <MikeSmith> I perused it
# [15:43] * DanC can't find it easily... http://useit.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmFind.exe?QUERY=blue+heading
# [15:44] <DanC> ah... "Never show text in your chosen link colors unless it's a link" -- http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20040510.html
# [15:44] <MikeSmith> I can of wonder whether Neilsen hasn't drifted way off into Yeah, but what have you done for the Web lately? waters
# [15:44] <MikeSmith> yeah, that's the one I guess
# [15:44] <DanC> huh? http://www.useit.com/ shows no sign of reduced activity
# [15:44] <zcorpan> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9611.html ?
# [15:45] * zcorpan is slow
# [15:45] <MikeSmith> not that activity has reduced, just that relevance of it maybe has
# [15:45] <MikeSmith> dude does not have a monopoly on usability these days
# [15:45] <DanC> I prefer classics like the Chicago manual of style to avante guard like MTV (well, even that is old by now) when it comes to visual design.
# [15:46] <DanC> of course he doesn't have a monopoly; I'm interested to see other similarly well-studied opinions
# [15:46] <MikeSmith> Well I guess I kind of thing usability should not equal boring
# [15:47] * DanC supposes the Chicago manual of style has little to say about visual design... maybe more the New York Museum of Art book
# [15:47] <MikeSmith> I mean, look at the http://www.useit.com/ page design
# [15:47] <MikeSmith> not exactly engaging
# [15:47] <DanC> it's engaging to me.
# [15:47] <DanC> especially when I browse from my phone and other devices.
# [15:48] <DanC> noone (sane) argues for boring; he just argues not to sacrifice usability for glitz.
# [15:48] <DanC> if you can do usable _and_ glitzy, more power to you. but few can.
# [15:48] <MikeSmith> I wonder what kind of music he listens to
# [15:49] <Philip> Kool Keith, perhaps?
# [15:49] * DanC wonders what, if anything, a list apart has to say re "Never show text in your chosen link colors unless it's a link"
# [15:49] <DanC> I haven't read the authoring threads in public-html; are you following those, MikeSmith ?
# [15:50] <MikeSmith> Philip - I will pay you several gazillion dollars if you can confirm that he listens to Kool Keith
# [15:50] <MikeSmith> or if he even, say, knows who DJ QBert is
# [15:51] <MikeSmith> DanC - I read everything on public-html
# [15:51] <MikeSmith> though not always in linear fashion
# [15:51] <DanC> ok, then I trust you'll let me know when the authoring thread merits the attention of the chairs
# [15:51] <MikeSmith> and not every message in depth
# [15:52] <smedero> speaking of A List Apart... I've written for them before and they've asked me to write again. I'm kicking around two article ideas... one being closer to my day job (interface design issues) but the other was taken advantage of the forum and do a state of the union type piece on HTML 5. They seem eager to have something like that.
# [15:52] <MikeSmith> and I read public-html sometimes while listening to Kool Keith
# [15:53] <MikeSmith> which helps a lot
# [15:53] <MikeSmith> me an Philip have a plan to promote Kool Keith as a candidate for the new King of Web Standards
# [15:54] <MikeSmith> DanC - the authoring thread merits the attention of the chairs
# [15:54] <DanC> oh.
# [15:55] <smedero> which thread exactly? :)
# [15:55] <smedero> there are like four going at once according to GMail.
# [15:55] <DanC> how can the chairs help with the authoring thread? is there a critical mass of support building around something? is it a candidate for working draft? or note?
# [15:56] <DanC> I wonder if a series of blog articles might be better
# [15:58] <DanC> Ryan king has a point: "If we were to try and reduce these superficial differences, like
# [15:58] <DanC> single versus double quotes versus unquoted attributes, it comes at
# [15:58] <DanC> the cost of working on deeper differences, like parsing and DOM
# [15:58] <DanC> compatibility."
# [15:58] <MikeSmith> smedero - basically starting here:
# [15:58] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0354.html
# [15:58] <DanC> but the cost to the WG of a blog article is much lower; we don't need to develop consensus around it.
# [15:59] <smedero> MikeSmith: Alright, yeah that thread does have some proposals in it.. I think there is another from Doug Jones that pops-up later.
# [15:59] <DanC> MikeSmith? please elaborate on "the authoring thread merits the attention of the chairs"? in what way is the thread not taking care of itself?
# [16:01] <DanC> i gather there's a concrete proposal from Lachy ; I like to assign significant chunks of work to pairs. is Lachy working with anybody closely?
# [16:02] <Lachy> I'm not working closely with anyone in particular
# [16:02] <DanC> hi
# [16:02] * DanC catches up... "
# [16:02] <DanC> I think it would be best if the ultimate goal was to publish a W3C Note"
# [16:02] <MikeSmith> DanC - not sure what it means for a thread to be taking care of itself, but I guess I think any substantive discussions about potential deliverables merit the attention the chairs
# [16:03] <DanC> oh. let me re-set your expectations
# [16:03] <DanC> mostly the WG does the work without the chairs getting directly involved.
# [16:04] <DanC> the chairs only get involved when something turns the corner from the burden being on the proposers to develop support to the burden being on those who want something different to say specifically what changes they want
# [16:04] <DanC> s/only/mostly/
# [16:05] * DanC continues catching up... finds http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Guide/ ...
# [16:05] <MikeSmith> I guess I see a difference between the chairs getting involved and just paying attention to discussios
# [16:06] <DanC> well, I make it a point to pay attention about as much as I expect the average WG member to pay attention; i.e. I only read a little bit of the email
# [16:06] <Lachy> indeed. I don't think there's anything related to the guide that the chairs need to be involved with yet
# [16:06] * DanC wonders how the wiki guide relates to http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
# [16:07] <Lachy> DanC, I'm using the guide to allow more people to contribute since a wiki can manage many contributors much better than granting everyone CVS access
# [16:07] * DanC wrinkles nose at "1.1. Conventions" ; cf "book with user interface" by philg
# [16:07] <DanC> i.e. http://philip.greenspun.com/wtr/dead-trees/story
# [16:08] <Lachy> basically, things in the wiki are proposals which will eventually get revised and incorporated into the CVS version by me later on
# [16:08] <DanC> a link from http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Guide/ to http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/ seems in order. and vice versa
# [16:09] <DanC> this reminds me of the original HTML spec, back in 1991...
# [16:09] <Lachy> DanC, ok. I'll add that later
# [16:09] <Lachy> is the telcon still on in about an hour?
# [16:09] <DanC> hmm... I wonder where /p and /a and /title went... I thought they were under /MarkUp
# [16:10] <DanC> chris w. is chairing today; it's up to him... I suppose our bridge reservation is for a specific time...
# [16:10] <Lachy> ok
# [16:10] <DanC> bridge reservation is 90 minutes http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_2715
# [16:11] <DanC> oh... _in_ about an hour... I thought you were asking about duration
# [16:11] <DanC> 12:00pm-1:30pm/17:00-18:30 UTC
# [16:11] <DanC> that's 2 hours from now, unless I'm screwing up the calculations, again
# [16:12] <DanC> $ date -u
# [16:12] <DanC> Thu Nov 29 15:10:12 UTC 2007
# [16:12] * Philip 's GMT clock agrees with that
# [16:13] <MikeSmith> yeah, 2 hours
# [16:13] <MikeSmith> = 2am MikeSmith time
# [16:14] <MikeSmith> smedero - HTML5 piece published through List Apart would be great to see
# [16:15] <DanC> hmm... I guess they weren't separate pages, just sections on a page... http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/Tags.html#4
# [16:16] <DanC> I went to An Event Apart in Chicago in August and talked with Jeff Z about a series of articles on HTML 5, but the idea hasn't gotten much steam since, AFAIK
# [16:17] <DanC> chuckle... "Much of the HTML actually around has been generated by the NeXTStep editor, which has in fact generated bad HTML. This should not confuse the specification. Some bugs in that output include non-matching open and close tags" -- http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/Future.html
# [16:18] <DanC> I developed a patch for NCSA mosaic that was basically an XML parser. But I moved to Austin to get married and changed jobs and never sent the patch to NCSA. I often wonder how different the web would be if I had sent it back then.
# [16:18] <MikeSmith> wow... I didn't even know about http://www.w3.org/History/
# [16:19] <DanC> it seems that I did contribute the code to libwww... http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/Connolly/MarkUp.html
# [16:20] <MikeSmith> DanC - somehow I suspect we still would have not found ourselves in a rosy wonderland
# [16:20] <DanC> when I get the kinks in my time machine worked out, I'll let you know. ;-)
# [16:21] <MikeSmith> btw, we are also working on cloning technology
# [16:21] <MikeSmith> to produce spec editors
# [16:21] <MikeSmith> and to do our homework for us
# [16:21] <Philip> Is that in our charter?
# [16:22] <MikeSmith> DanC - this /History stuff should be more prominently linked to from somewhere
# [16:22] <MikeSmith> from anywhere
# [16:22] <MikeSmith> how are people expected to find it?
# [16:22] <DanC> people aren't expected to find it.
# [16:22] <MikeSmith> ah
# [16:22] <DanC> people should find the specs on /TR/ and not get confused by archival stuff, mostly.
# [16:23] <DanC> but you should be able to find the W3C@10 stuff, which has a fairly polished view of history
# [16:23] <MikeSmith> well, I think there are a few crazy people who would like to read that stuff
# [16:23] <MikeSmith> and things like the circa 1991 www-talk archives
# [16:23] <DanC> yes, there's a web history cult. it's kinda bizzare, though. do you know about webhistory.org ?
# [16:23] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [16:24] <MikeSmith> sorta
# [16:24] <DanC> the guy came and interviewed a whole bunch of us on video and then never did anything with the material.
# [16:24] <DanC> it really pissed timbl off that he had to start over and do a book himself.
# [16:24] * DanC oops; did I just say that in public?
# [16:25] <MikeSmith> too late now
# [16:25] * DanC oh well
# [16:25] <MikeSmith> candor is encourage on #html-wg
# [16:25] * Joins: myakura (myakura@222.148.7.61)
# [16:26] <MikeSmith> anyway, my interests are not for cultic reasons but more out of "wonder what they were thinking back then" reasons
# [16:26] <DanC> speaking of web history and stuff that I'd like to convince the author to set free... does anybody know how to reach Ted Nelson? I have an HTML version of his "future of information" book based on plain text that he sent me, but we never finished the licensing negotiation
# [16:27] * DanC points MikeSmith at http://www.w3.org/Team/9706/nelson/
# [16:27] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
# [16:28] <MikeSmith> we should try to get Ted Nelson to comment on HTML5
# [16:28] <MikeSmith> to say anything at all about it, good or bad
# [16:29] <MikeSmith> Though I'm sure it would be bad
# [16:29] <MikeSmith> No idea how to get ahold of him
# [16:29] <MikeSmith> I think he's still working on Xanadu 2
# [16:29] <MikeSmith> or Xanadu 3 by now maybe
# [16:30] <MikeSmith> I like his term "hyperhell" a lot
# [16:31] <MikeSmith> .
# [16:31] * MikeSmith reads http://www.w3.org/Team/9706/nelson/nelson06.html#hyperhells-60 section
# [16:31] <MikeSmith> ted was way ahead of his time
# [16:31] <DanC> there's a lot of great stuff in that book, indeed.
# [16:31] <MikeSmith> even with the version numbers
# [16:31] <DanC> if only he weren't such a piss-ant
# [16:32] <MikeSmith> heh
# [16:32] <MikeSmith> yeah, that's it, in so many words
# [16:32] <DanC> of all the supreme arrogance: note not single citation to anybody else's work in the references section
# [16:33] <MikeSmith> hey, he's got "Andrew Pam, proposed definition of <TXT SRC> tag in HTML." as reference 5 in his bibliography
# [16:34] <MikeSmith> references 1-4 all being by somebody named T. Nelson
# [16:34] <Lachy> damn, 401 unauthorised! :-( Why is that restricted?
# [16:34] <DanC> Lachy, please take out "The Working Group intends to publish this document as a Working Group Note. " until the Working Group has actually said something like that.
# [16:34] <anne> Lachy, it is W3C Team-only
# [16:34] * anne has no idea why though
# [16:34] <DanC> it's restricted because Ted Nelson hasn't given me permission to 200 it
# [16:34] <Lachy> DanC, ok
# [16:35] <Lachy> I'll have to fix it later tonight
# [16:35] <DanC> hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson cites "The Future of Information" (1997) but doesn't give a link
# [16:35] <MikeSmith> amazing that that Ted Nelson wrote so elaborately about collaborative technologies but was not actually interested in collaborating with anybody
# [16:36] <DanC> MikeSmith, speaking of getting Ted Nelson to say something about HTML 5, I got him to say something about XML: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/w3j/s3.nelson.html XML.com: Embedded Markup Considered Harmful
# [16:36] <DanC> he's got impossibly high standards, just like timbl. the difference is that timbl is willing to tolerate less than his ideals.
# [16:37] <DanC> so timbl's web is everywhere, and xanadu is a footnote in wikipedia
# [16:37] <MikeSmith> DanC - that article from Ted doesn't actually mention XML
# [16:37] * DanC really should cut it out with the zingers
# [16:38] <MikeSmith> mentions SGML though
# [16:38] <Lachy> DanC, regarding the document licence issue raised here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0292.html - is it possible to use a special license for the guide that doesn't have the restrictions that the standard w3c licence has?
# [16:38] * MikeSmith notices that Ted lists "M.A. in Social Relations from Harvard" at the end
# [16:38] <MikeSmith> social relations..
# [16:39] <DanC> perhaps possible, but not straightforward, Lachy . again, that's one of the things that makes me think a series of blog articles might be better than a /TR/ when it comes to authoring guidelines for HTML 5
# [16:39] <DanC> there was an internal discussion of creative commons licenses for W3C tech reports; I don't recall the outcome; do you, MikeSmith ?
# [16:40] * DanC reads 0292...
# [16:40] <Lachy> maybe there's another solution, like mirroring it on whatwg.org with the whatwg licence, just like the spec.
# [16:40] <MikeSmith> DanC - i recall some discussion but I don't recall any resolution
# [16:41] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156)
# [16:41] * MikeSmith wanders off for a bit
# [16:41] <Lachy> DanC, btw, I'm writing an article for A List Apart at the moment. It will be published in the next issue
# [16:41] <DanC> cool
# [16:42] * MikeSmith is now known as TedNelson5
# [16:42] <DanC> mike, can I assign you an action to look into hsivonen 's suggestion to use a DSFG-happy license for HTML 5 authoring guidelines? his point that it's useful for validation tools is spot on.
# [16:43] <DanC> [well, of course I can assign such an action; the question is whether you accept it.]
# [16:43] * Lachy suggested MIT license, though I'd be happy with any similar non-copyleft permissive license
# [16:44] <Lachy> as long as it's GPL-compatible
# [16:44] * DanC looks for other W3C staff members aboot... wonders if Bert has his ears on
# [16:46] * Bert has a headset on...
# [16:46] <DanC> Bert, wanna take an action to follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring, per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0292.html ?
# [16:47] <DanC> I'm sure your plate isn't full enough ;-)
# [16:47] <DanC> hmm... I don't think you're in the issue tracking task force. never mind
# [16:47] <anne> is Bert in the WG, even?
# [16:47] <DanC> I dunno
# [16:48] <Bert> I'm not in the WG, and action items are not things I like to have :-)
# [16:48] <anne> dbwg says no
# [16:48] <DanC> dbwg should know
# [16:48] <Bert> Looks difficult. Nedd to read back up
# [16:48] <DanC> anne, I'd be happy for you to take the action; you could get it done by bugging me and mike
# [16:49] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@66.30.196.151)
# [16:49] * DanC considers "Anne van Kesteren has 0 actions" a bug ;-)
# [16:49] <anne> I can e-mail spec-prod I suppose
# [16:49] <anne> hah
# [16:50] <DanC> trackbot-ng, status
# [16:50] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 15 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
# [16:50] <DanC> ACTION: Anne follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring, per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0292.html
# [16:50] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [16:50] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-29 - Follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring, per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0292.html [on Anne van Kesteren - due 2007-12-06].
# [16:50] <DanC> mailing me and mike with copy to spec-prod is a fine way to start
# [16:52] <Lachy> anne, can you CC me too so I can keep track of the issue
# [16:52] <anne> actually, I think I know the answer
# [16:52] <anne> oh no
# [16:53] <anne> XBL is not dual-licensed, but has a separate version with a different license
# [16:53] <Bert> If I understand correctly, you want a document that everybody can make derivative works of. In other words, a document that is udner the W3C software license instead of the document license. Seems perfectly doable to me.
# [16:53] <DanC> the right answer is probably a change to some W3C policies. this might take a while, but I think it's probably worthwhile
# [16:54] <Bert> (Pubrules will complain, but pubrules is just a piece of software.)
# [16:54] <Lachy> Bert, yes. It's the authoring guide and it would be useful if software, like validators and authoring tools, could include the information directly in their products
# [16:54] <DanC> yes, that's pretty much what we want, bert
# [16:54] <DanC> and pubrules is not just a piece of software; it's a bunch of policies
# [16:55] <Bert> Sure, what I mean is, don't let pubrules stop you from trying to get it accepted.
# [16:55] <DanC> right
# [16:55] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
# [16:56] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
# [17:01] <anne> done: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2007OctDec/0006.html
# [17:04] <DanC> yup; I forwarded it internally.
# [17:05] * DanC re-assigned ACTION-29 to me, since anne can't really do the next step
# [17:07] <Lachy> anne, I wanted to avoid having my opera address on a public mailing list. Now I'm going to start getting spam :-(
# [17:08] <Philip> Lachy: That's easy to fix - just change your name and get assigned a new email address
# [17:10] <anne> Lachy, that should help in testing the Opera spam filter
# [17:10] * DanC grumbles that tracker doesn't make a link from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/12 to the minutes to give context
# [17:10] * DanC finds http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action12 ...
# [17:11] <Lachy> isn't the telcon supposed to have started?
# [17:11] <Lachy> where's Chris?
# [17:11] <DanC> again: telcon starts at 1700Z
# [17:11] <anne> he messed up the time in the e-mail I think
# [17:12] <DanC> see topic and chris's agenda msg and our zakim res
# [17:12] <DanC> phpht. chris fat-fingered it?
# [17:12] <anne> yes, it said 1600Z iirc
# [17:12] <anne> 16:00-00:00 UTC even :)
# [17:13] <Lachy> oh, right. I believed the email
# [17:13] <DanC> I wonder if 9am Pacific is 1700Z
# [17:13] <anne> no, 9 seems to be 1600
# [17:14] <anne> well, for PDT anyway
# [17:14] <DanC> Seattle Thu 9:00 AM
# [17:14] <DanC> Time is fixed on Thursday, November 29, 2007 at 17:00:00 UTC time
# [17:14] <smedero> Did you authorize ChrisWilson to use your time machine, DanC?
# [17:14] <DanC> -- http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=11&day=29&year=2007&hour=17&min=00&sec=0&p1=0
# [17:14] <DanC> <- http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#D20071129
# [17:14] <DanC> <- http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html <- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16
# [17:15] <anne> yeah, makes sense
# [17:15] <anne> they're in PST now
# [17:15] <anne> which has an 8 hour offset
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# [17:31] <DanC> oh... MikeSmith, the surveys link on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ is a little goofy; try to keep the TOC for this page separate from nearby stuff
# [17:31] <DanC> maybe I'll fix it
# [17:33] * TedNelson5 is now known as MikeSmith
# [17:33] <MikeSmith> DanC - if you have time to fix it they way you want please do
# [17:33] <MikeSmith> one thing I don't like that side bar
# [17:34] <MikeSmith> way too much text there
# [17:34] <anne> ooh, i18n comments on XHR
# [17:34] <MikeSmith> sidebar should just be for navigation, if there is a sidebar
# [17:34] <MikeSmith> anne - i18n comments from whom>
# [17:36] <anne> from the i18n group, of course :)
# [17:36] <Philip> I don't particularly like how the 'Membership and Participation' section has lots of inline links scattered through the paragraphs - it makes it really hard to find e.g. the link to the member list, since I have to read lots of irrelevant text before finding it
# [17:37] <anne> it seems like they're all from Addison Phillips
# [17:37] <Julian> many of these comments seem to confuse the XHR spec with the HTTP spec...
# [17:37] * anne always search "participants"
# [17:38] <anne> yeah
# [17:38] <DanC> I think the inline links are good for the 1st time reader, but I agree they should be repeated in more handy nav structures
# [17:38] <anne> although I wonder why we said that browsers should supply the Accept-Language header
# [17:38] <anne> I'm not sure that makes sense
# [17:38] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.181.108)
# [17:38] * Joins: brianlandau (brianlanda@24.106.184.150)
# [17:38] <DanC> I *hate* pages that say "click the link in the upper right corner for our specials"
# [17:39] <DanC> when they could just say: See _our specials_.
# [17:39] <anne> maybe we can have a bookmarks page that lists all the things you want from the HTML WG
# [17:39] <anne> mailing lists, participant list, surveys, agenda
# [17:41] * Quits: hober (ted@68.107.112.172) (Ping timeout)
# [17:41] <MikeSmith> I welcome anybody volunteering a redesign slash content improvements of that page
# [17:42] <MikeSmith> I think the <blink> and <reversevideo> tages are good for drawing attention stuff
# [17:42] <MikeSmith> and the <red> tag
# [17:42] * Philip guesses it would a bad idea to write the page in HTML5
# [17:42] <Philip> +be
# [17:42] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
# [17:42] <oedipus> worse still, DanC, are those who say "click on the specials button at the top of the page" when they mean the graphically defined hyperlink
# [17:45] <oedipus> Mike(tm)Smith, what page are you referring to -- an internal wg resource? has anyone checked it for WCAG compliance (that would be a start)...
# [17:45] <MikeSmith> oedipus, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/
# [17:46] <MikeSmith> I encourage those who know how to check for WCAG conformance to check such conformance of that page
# [17:47] <MikeSmith> Is there a WCAG conformance checker?
# [17:47] <oedipus> ok, i will and will ask that the drafters of WCAG2 take a pass at it -- that's why that working group exists -- to do inreach as well as outreach
# [17:48] <MikeSmith> hmm, inreach
# [17:48] <MikeSmith> not sure I like the sound of that
# [17:48] <MikeSmith> sounds too close for comfort, that
# [17:48] <oedipus> Mike(tm)Smith - not all WCAG checks can be automated -- for those that can and the wg developing them, check http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER
# [17:48] <MikeSmith> oedipus - OK
# [17:49] <oedipus> Shadi Abou-Zahra is still listed as chair and team contact: <shadi@w3.org>
# [17:49] <MikeSmith> hey, his name sounds familiar
# [17:49] <oedipus> i'm trying to find the ERT list of evaluation and repair tools -- and, there is also EARL
# [17:50] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10-Schema/ or http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL10-Schema/
# [17:50] <oedipus> DanC has had positive experiences with EARL, i believe
# [17:50] <DanC> :)
# [17:50] <MikeSmith> I've seen presentations from Shadi on EARL
# [17:51] <DanC> most recently, I'm interested in mixing EARL with hReview, as discussed in the "story telling and test cases" session. http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html#item01
# [17:51] <oedipus> most likely, you have -- the list of ER tools is at: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/ (haven't checked the "last modified" date)
# [17:51] * DanC wonders if my earlsum.py is in that list of tools...
# [17:52] <oedipus> DanC, i'll check (http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/advanced - search interface for tools)
# [17:52] <DanC> no match for "earlsum" on http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/complete
# [17:52] * Joins: hober (ted@68.107.112.172)
# [17:52] <DanC> nor "connolly"
# [17:53] <DanC> I have sent mail to ERT mailing lists about it
# [17:53] <oedipus> do you have a pointer to it? i'll bug the hell out of them (i'm told i'm good at that sort of thing...)
# [17:53] <MikeSmith> combination of the terms "inreach" and "schema" could be powerful means for extracting confessions during interrogation: If you don't tell us what we want to know, we will publish a normative inreach schema.
# [17:53] <DanC> phpht... the page mentions mailto:public-wai-ert-tools@w3.org but doesn't link the archive
# [17:54] <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-er-tools yields a 404
# [17:54] <oedipus> oops forgot a t
# [17:54] <oedipus> DanC, the archive is located at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tools/
# [17:55] <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2007Feb/0009.html
# [17:55] <oedipus> DanC, i'll follow up -- i'm trying to get all such loose ends tied together so that WAI can work more efficiently with other activities and WGs
# [17:56] <DanC> my tool is pretty geeky; not consumer technology
# [17:56] <oedipus> right now, the geeky tools are the most efficient (in my opinion, but then it's all geek to me)
# [17:56] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.105)
# [17:56] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, start meeting
# [17:56] * trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
# [17:56] * trackbot-ng found 15 users
# [17:56] <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
# [17:56] * trackbot-ng is starting a teleconference
# [17:56] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/29-html-wg-irc
# [17:57] <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot-ng
# [17:57] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [17:57] <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be HTML
# [17:57] <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
# [17:57] <trackbot-ng> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
# [17:57] <trackbot-ng> Date: 29 November 2007
# [17:57] <DanC> Meeting: HTML WG Weekly
# [17:59] * oedipus says to DanC, the content of the ERT tools interface was last modified 17 march 2006 -- will follow up
# [17:59] <DanC> that interface is pretty intimdating. it should list at least a handful of tools on the cover page
# [17:59] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:00] <Zakim> -??P2
# [18:00] <Zakim> +??P2
# [18:00] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
# [18:00] <oedipus> it used to be a lot more user-friendly -- methinks i detect an unmaintained, unowned resource...
# [18:00] <Lachy> Zakim, pointer?
# [18:00] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Lachy.
# [18:00] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode?
# [18:00] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy
# [18:01] <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aaaa
# [18:01] <DanC> darn; didn't get around to hacking on magic namespaces. :-/
# [18:01] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, agenda?
# [18:01] <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
# [18:01] <DanC> let alone prep for TAG discussion of namespaceDocument-8 that immediately follows this telcon
# [18:01] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmiata
# [18:01] * MikeSmith doesn't know what voodoo code Zakim has assigned him
# [18:01] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, ChrisWilson, +49.251.280.aaaa, Gregory_Rosmiata
# [18:02] <DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0405.html
# [18:02] <Zakim> +[LC]
# [18:02] <DanC> (that's the archival agenda; http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda is probably more useful during the meeting; see /topic)
# [18:02] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, 49.251.280.aaaa is Julian
# [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, ChrisWilson, I do not recognize a party named '49.251.280.aaaa'
# [18:02] <Zakim> + +047236aabb
# [18:02] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is Julian
# [18:02] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
# [18:02] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
# [18:02] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
# [18:02] <Zakim> +DanC
# [18:02] <Lachy> Zakim, I am aabb
# [18:02] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
# [18:03] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P2 is MikeSmith
# [18:03] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
# [18:03] <Zakim> -Lachy
# [18:03] <ChrisWilson> Still looking for a volunteer to scribe?
# [18:03] <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
# [18:03] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Julian
# [18:03] <ChrisWilson> I'm chairing
# [18:03] <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
# [18:03] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose MikeSmith
# [18:03] <MikeSmith> heh
# [18:03] <DanC> Chair: ChrisWilson
# [18:03] <MikeSmith> figures
# [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim hates me
# [18:04] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
# [18:04] <MikeSmith> Scribe: MikeSmith
# [18:04] <Zakim> +Lachy
# [18:04] <oedipus> zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita
# [18:04] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita; got it
# [18:04] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [18:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/29-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:04] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see MikeSmith, ChrisWilson, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, [LC], DanC, +047236aacc
# [18:04] <oedipus> zakim, mute me
# [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
# [18:04] <oedipus> zakim, mute oedipus
# [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to oedipus
# [18:04] <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
# [18:04] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
# [18:05] * Lachy will have difficulty typing and holding the phone, since he can't use his broken headset :-(
# [18:05] <MikeSmith> Topic: Open Action Items
# [18:05] * MikeSmith thinks Michael C is not on
# [18:06] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
# [18:07] <oedipus> GJR: notes that PF has invited simon pieters to join to expedite the process
# [18:07] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/8
# [18:07] * Joins: Lachy_ (Lachy@213.236.208.22)
# [18:07] <MikeSmith> "Discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute", on Michael Cooper
# [18:07] <DanC> I updated actions/8
# [18:08] <MikeSmith> keeping Action 8 open pending more talk with Michael Cooper
# [18:08] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/13
# [18:08] <MikeSmith> "Talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion", on chaals
# [18:09] <oedipus> last PF WG meeting (MC's action discussed) - member confidential archive: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/26-pf-minutes.html
# [18:09] <MikeSmith> ChrisW will bring up with HCG
# [18:09] <DanC> updated actions/13 reassigned to ChrisW, due 13 Dec
# [18:09] <MikeSmith> s/bring up/bring up Action 13/
# [18:09] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : what prompted this action?
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> DanC: yeah, Saturday f2f discussion about offline Web apps
# [18:10] <oedipus> zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
# [18:10] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/23
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> "coordinate comparative tests using competing ARIA proposals"
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> oedipus - ran into problem with chair of PF group ...
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> ... they think it's an "undue burden"
# [18:11] * DanC hears an argument to withdraw the action... or maybe continue it...
# [18:11] <MikeSmith> ... there's a push to get it resolved ...
# [18:11] <MikeSmith> ... tomorrow morning there is a meeting with zcorpan (Simon Pieters) to discuss adoption of his ARIA proposal ...
# [18:11] <DanC> (meeting tomorrow? a pointer to mail from whoever is running that meeting would be handy)
# [18:12] <DanC> (er... are we talking about aria-role in substance here or just updating the action status?)
# [18:12] <MikeSmith> oedipus : OK to [declare] a role without declaring a namespace (they agreed to this compromise)
# [18:12] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-14 aria-role
# [18:12] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
# [18:12] <MikeSmith> oedipus : have been working with XHTML2 people ...
# [18:13] <zcorpan> DanC, http://www.w3.org/mid/p06110409c3749ffc266b@%5B192.168.1.102%5D
# [18:13] <MikeSmith> ... now need to broker with developers ...
# [18:13] <MikeSmith> oedipus : I can report back about this [after the meeting tomorrow]
# [18:13] <DanC> (which we agreed?)
# [18:13] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : DanC you noted that you wanted examples
# [18:13] <MikeSmith> DanC : yep
# [18:13] <DanC> (I got the pointers I needed.)
# [18:14] * DanC Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [18:14] * Zakim sees on the phone: MikeSmith, ChrisWilson, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, [LC], DanC, +047236aacc
# [18:14] <DanC> (3 meetings GR just mentioned... pointers please)
# [18:14] <MikeSmith> Zakim, aacc is Lachy
# [18:14] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
# [18:15] <oedipus> friday 30 november 2007 - meeting with simon pieters http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2007OctDec/0257.html
# [18:15] * MikeSmith or maybe it's not Lachy
# [18:15] * Lachy Zakim already recognised me after I redialed, I don't think that's me
# [18:15] <MikeSmith> Zakim, aacc is not Lachy
# [18:15] <Zakim> I don't understand 'aacc is not Lachy', MikeSmith
# [18:15] <DanC> I marked ACTION-23 witdrawn
# [18:16] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Gregory to report back after 11-30 meeting on ARIA syntax
# [18:16] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:16] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:16] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-30 - Report back after 11-30 meeting on ARIA syntax [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2007-12-06].
# [18:16] <MikeSmith> DanC : W3C process requires 7-day notice for meetings
# [18:17] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Connection reset by peer)
# [18:17] <MikeSmith> oedipus : this is an attempt to work with the vendors who are supportive of ARIA
# [18:17] * anne thinks it's Lachy unless there's someone else calling in from NO
# [18:17] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80)
# [18:18] <DanC> q+ to note regrets for next week 6 Dec
# [18:18] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
# [18:18] <Lachy> Zakim, mute me
# [18:18] <Zakim> Lachy should now be muted
# [18:18] <MikeSmith> [discussion of getting "PF ducks in a row" and "mutual reality check"
# [18:18] <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
# [18:18] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
# [18:18] <DanC> ack danc
# [18:18] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note regrets for next week 6 Dec
# [18:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:19] <MikeSmith> DanC notes he won't be here next week; ChrisWilson will chair again
# [18:19] <DanC> next meeting: 6 Dec, Chris W to chair
# [18:19] <MikeSmith> [moving on to discussion of Pending Review AIs]
# [18:19] <MikeSmith> Topic: Issue 7, Video Codecs
# [18:20] <MikeSmith> s/Issue 7/Issue 4/
# [18:20] <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0153.html [homework] summary of the video (and audio) codec discussion
# [18:20] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
# [18:20] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : this seems complete[d]
# [18:20] <MikeSmith> DanC will be at the Video Workshop
# [18:21] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0153.html
# [18:21] <MikeSmith> above is posting from Dave Singer
# [18:21] <DanC> ACTION: Dan see that Singer's summary makes it to the SJC/Dec W3C video workshop, possibly by confirming Singer's attendance
# [18:21] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:21] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:21] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-31 - See that Singer's summary makes it to the SJC/Dec W3C video workshop, possibly by confirming Singer's attendance [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-12-06].
# [18:22] * oedipus notes that dave singer has very fruitful morining with the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines WG at TPAC
# [18:22] <MikeSmith> Topic: ACTION 5, task force for developer community outreach (on Karl)
# [18:22] * DanC encourages MikeSmith to q+ re karl's authoring proposal
# [18:22] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/5
# [18:23] <MikeSmith> q+ to comment on Karl's proposal
# [18:23] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [18:23] <Lachy> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:23] <Zakim> Lachy should no longer be muted
# [18:23] <smedero> fyi: Dave Singer's email was tacked on to the issue for video-codecs: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/7
# [18:24] <DanC> ack MikeSmith
# [18:24] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment on Karl's proposal
# [18:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:24] <DanC> ok by me, action done... now what next... a note and a wiki topic look OK to me
# [18:25] <DanC> q+ to note another idea: an edited series of blog articles
# [18:25] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
# [18:25] <MikeSmith> Lachy - I'm trying to incorporate Karl's proposal into my draft ...
# [18:26] <MikeSmith> ... as well as stuff from Roger
# [18:26] <DanC> ok: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/5 Product HTML 5 authoring guidelines
# [18:27] <DanC> yeah, not a good name. Mike to fix
# [18:28] <DanC> (did lachy take an action)
# [18:28] <MikeSmith> ACTION: MikeSmith to change the product name of "HTML 5 authoring guidelines" in the tracker to sometthing else, eventually
# [18:28] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:28] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - MikeSmith
# [18:28] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [18:28] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to change the product name of "HTML 5 authoring guidelines" in the tracker to sometthing else, eventually
# [18:28] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:28] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [18:28] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-32 - Change the product name of \"HTML 5 authoring guidelines\" in the tracker to sometthing else, eventually [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-12-06].
# [18:28] <Lachy> DanC, what action would you like me to take?
# [18:29] <MikeSmith> Topic: canvas survey questions
# [18:29] <DanC> good question. maybe none, for now
# [18:29] <Lachy> ok
# [18:29] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/
# [18:29] * Lachy is happy to have an action to do nothing
# [18:30] <DanC> trackbot-ng, status
# [18:30] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 15 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
# [18:30] <DanC> . ACTION: Lachy prepare web developer guide for publication as a Note
# [18:31] <DanC> yup, regular web pages or blogs are fine by me
# [18:31] <MikeSmith> Justin: [suggestion about considering blog items]
# [18:34] <MikeSmith> DanC - I consider the series-of-blog items to be a fairly definitive way of publishing this kind of information.
# [18:35] <DanC> s/definitive/comfortable/
# [18:35] * Joins: jgraham_ (james@81.86.218.70)
# [18:36] <DanC> ACTION: Lachy prepare web developer guide for publication as a Note
# [18:36] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:36] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Lachy
# [18:36] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [18:36] <DanC> ACTION: Lachy prepare web developer guide, maybe as a Note, maybe other
# [18:36] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:36] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [18:36] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Lachy
# [18:36] <DanC> (
# [18:36] <DanC> (Lachy, can I add you to the issue tracking task force? i.e. will you be in touch with the chairs regularly?)
# [18:37] <MikeSmith> Lachy : we want to be able to update the info after we publish it
# [18:37] <anne> That's possible with a Note
# [18:38] <ChrisWilson> (i.e. the content will change as the HTML5 spec changes)
# [18:38] <DanC> (I presume so...)
# [18:38] <anne> You just publish another one Note
# [18:38] <ChrisWilson> sure
# [18:38] <anne> s/one //
# [18:38] <MikeSmith> ... blogs are good for describing current state of things but not for things that need to be updated
# [18:38] <DanC> trackbot-ng, status
# [18:38] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 15 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
# [18:39] <DanC> ACTION: ChrisWilson to investigate an HTML WG blog, a la the way the I18N WG does it
# [18:39] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:39] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [18:39] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-33 - Investigate an HTML WG blog, a la the way the I18N WG does it [on Chris Wilson - due 2007-12-06].
# [18:39] <DanC> due jan
# [18:41] <DanC> Zakim, who's making noise?
# [18:41] <Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MikeSmith (9%), ChrisWilson (9%), Lachy (13%), DanC (13%)
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
# [18:41] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 15 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reboot
# [18:41] <Lachy> Zakim, mute me
# [18:41] <Zakim> Lachy should now be muted
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
# [18:41] <trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
# [18:41] * trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
# [18:41] * trackbot-ng found 16 users
# [18:41] <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
# [18:41] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 16 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Lachlan, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
# [18:41] <ChrisWilson> Any interest in discussing any of the other open issues that have seen recent discussion?
# [18:42] <ChrisWilson> (or haven't seen recent discussion?)
# [18:42] <MikeSmith> DanC - yu can assign that issue to Lachlan now
# [18:42] <oedipus> GJR: would like a continuation on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/24 - i've noted in the tracker the steps taken so far, and am in the process of finalizing a tweaked stylesheet for review
# [18:42] <MikeSmith> s/Any interest/Topic: Other current issues being discussion on public-html/
# [18:43] <MikeSmith> [discussion of nonconformance of the style attribute in HTML]
# [18:43] <MikeSmith> s/HTML]/HTML5]/
# [18:44] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : how are we tracking follow-up and resolution on these issues?
# [18:44] <MikeSmith> DanC : there is a new testing task force?
# [18:44] <ChrisWilson> s /tracking/ensuring
# [18:44] <MikeSmith> q+ to talk about testsuite stuff
# [18:44] * Zakim sees DanC, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [18:44] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/
# [18:45] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2007Nov/0001.html
# [18:45] <ChrisWilson> q?
# [18:45] * Zakim sees DanC, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [18:45] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/26
# [18:46] <DanC> ack danc
# [18:46] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note another idea: an edited series of blog articles
# [18:46] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [18:46] <MikeSmith> above is about testsuite stuff
# [18:46] <DanC> ack MikeSmith
# [18:46] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to talk about testsuite stuff
# [18:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:46] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-issue-tracking/2007Nov/0006.html
# [18:46] <DanC> ah... test suite product is already there... http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/4
# [18:47] * Lachy wonders what the new public-html-wg-issue-tracking list is for? Shoud I subscribe to that?
# [18:48] <ChrisWilson> Tracker watching public-html; the public-issue-tracking is for discussing how we do issue tracking.
# [18:49] <ChrisWilson> Above was DanC
# [18:49] <smedero> Lachy: it was primarily for discussion of issues with the Tracker software... and yes... what ChrisWilson said.
# [18:49] <Lachy> ok, so it's not something I need to subscribe to (I'm on too many lists already :-))
# [18:49] <ChrisWilson> I believe that is true, yes.
# [18:49] <ChrisWilson> I don't think I'm subscribed.
# [18:50] <smedero> We just didn't want to clutter public-html with noise on backoffice issues
# [18:50] <Julian> No, I didn't.
# [18:51] <MikeSmith> [discussion about mailing lists and interaction with tracker:
# [18:51] <ChrisWilson> Any other issues?
# [18:51] <ChrisWilson> Motion to adjourn?
# [18:51] <Lachy> bye
# [18:51] <Julian> c u
# [18:51] <Zakim> -Julian
# [18:51] <ChrisWilson> bye
# [18:51] <Zakim> -Lachy
# [18:51] <Zakim> -[LC]
# [18:51] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
# [18:51] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 2.0.0.10/2007111504])
# [18:51] <MikeSmith> [no objections to adjourning heard]
# [18:52] <ChrisWilson> ADJOURN
# [18:52] <MikeSmith> cheers for meetings that don't go a full hour
# [18:52] <MikeSmith> Thanks ChrisWilson
# [18:52] <ChrisWilson> (DanC seconded)
# [18:52] <ChrisWilson> heh. Apparently I should chair more often. Don't tell Dan.
# [18:52] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
# [18:52] <DanC> tracker's agenda-building support is really working well
# [18:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [18:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/29-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:53] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
# [18:53] <MikeSmith> DanC - yeah, thanks to systeam and to Dom in particular probably for the new features
# [18:54] * MikeSmith wanders off for a bit; will publish minutes later
# [18:54] * MikeSmith is now known as Crackbot
# [18:54] <DanC> you are charing more often, ChrisWilson . for which, thanks.
# [18:55] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [18:56] <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
# [18:56] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/29-html-wg-irc#T17-55-13
# [19:36] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in HTML_WG()12:00PM
# [19:36] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
# [19:36] <Zakim> Attendees were ChrisWilson, +49.251.280.aaaa, [LC], +047236aabb, Julian, DanC, Lachy, MikeSmith, Gregory_Rosmaita
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# [20:57] <Hixie> DanC: ping (can i help with ACTION-28?)
# [21:01] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG meets Thu 29 Nov at 17:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: hihttp://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ) '
# [21:01] <DanC> hi
# [21:01] <DanC> (my irc client just did something surprising. oh well.)
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# [21:02] <DanC> I started the internal discussion; one question that came back was: can we do a feature freeze while we're at it? I said: quite possibly, based on http://blog.whatwg.org/html5-snapshot
# [21:03] <DanC> do you want to hear about some of the possible dates after December 2007? speaking them into existence makes them more likely to happen
# [21:03] <Hixie> yeah, other than the rendering section, ruby, and the forms stuff, i'm not aware of anything that isn't in the pending feedback that really needs to be in 5.0
# [21:03] <Hixie> (maybe the namespace / math / svg stuff that has been proposed by sam and others)
# [21:04] <Hixie> (but i don't know that we have enough experience with that yet to put it in 5.0)
# [21:04] * DanC wonders if I should add 3 requirements issue on " rendering section, ruby, and the forms stuff" real quick... stands by...
# [21:04] <Hixie> rendering section = the default rendering of the existing features, it's just that they're defined in a separate section since it's all non-normative stuff
# [21:05] <Hixie> ruby = i18n semantics, just need to reverse engineer IE's implementation to add it
# [21:05] <DanC> right; the current draft says "rendering: TBD", IIRC
# [21:05] <Hixie> and the forms stuff is currently wf2, it's just waiting for the forms task force to come back to us with a conclusion
# [21:06] <DanC> I like to have all the stuff we're waiting for in the tracker somewhere
# [21:06] <Hixie> re other dates, i don't mind discussing dates, but what i really want is (as noted in mail 0423) a clear list of requirements and a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD
# [21:06] <DanC> re namespace/math/svg, I'm fairly optimistic, though I have been saying "maybe not html 5; maybe in the next version" but I also say "i.e. in 2 or 3 years"
# [21:07] <Hixie> i don't mind things getting added to the tracker :-)
# [21:07] <Hixie> ruby is hte only one of the three that doesn't have a placeholder in the spec, fwiw
# [21:08] * Quits: smedero (smedero@158.130.16.191) (Quit: smedero)
# [21:09] <DanC> I don't know if I can come up with a clear list of requirements on behalf of the whole WG, but the biggest issue seems to be the charter and canvas. IBM and Microsoft argue that the charter should be changed before canvas is published in an HTML WG WD.
# [21:09] <Hixie> and a much larger number of people argue otherwise... so...
# [21:09] <DanC> I'm encouraged by your support for the idea of splitting out the 2d graphics API.
# [21:10] <DanC> larger than the collection of IBM and Microsoft employees and customers? I haven't seen that.
# [21:10] <Lachy> DanC, I updated the status of the HTML guide per your previous request
# [21:10] <DanC> thanks, Lachy
# [21:10] <Hixie> DanC: wait, we're basing this on customer and employee counts?
# [21:10] <Hixie> (i think google probably has at least the same number of customers as microsoft)
# [21:10] <DanC> yes, I'm basing it on the position of IBM and Microsoft in the overall marketplace.
# [21:10] <Lachy> DanC, where can I find a template for the status section of a Last Call spec? I need it for selectors api
# [21:10] <DanC> and yes, Google is a force to be reckoned with
# [21:11] <DanC> Lachy, something like that should be near http://www.w3.org/2003/Editors/ .
# [21:11] <Hixie> well, this is a new technique for consensus forming, i wasn't aware of it before
# [21:11] <Hixie> but ok
# [21:12] <Lachy> thanks
# [21:12] <DanC> yes, first came ISO with 1-country-one-vote, then came IETF with one-mailbox-one-vote; W3C is something in between.
# [21:12] <Hixie> DanC: i think i would have to insist that we have a clear list of requirements and a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD, especially if we're going to be using new and undocumented ways of determining that 2 > 43
# [21:13] <DanC> W3C process tries to acknowledge the role of our members in the overall deployment landscape
# [21:13] <Hixie> DanC: otherwise it really does feel like, to use mjs' phrase, we are going into an "unbounded slip"
# [21:13] <Hixie> i certainly haven't seen that be done in the past, or be mentioned in the charter
# [21:13] <DanC> new and undocumented? this is all laid out in the W3C process document. there's nothing new about it.
# [21:13] <Hixie> (i feel my company's management would find such a policy anticompetitive, even given our position in the market)
# [21:14] <Hixie> where?
# [21:14] <Hixie> s/charter/process document/
# [21:14] <Hixie> i've read the process document many times and definitely don't remember anything about market positioning
# [21:14] <Hixie> is this new?
# [21:14] <DanC> things like "In the case (described in paragraph 5g of the Membership Agreement), where a Member organization is itself a consortium, user society, or otherwise has members or sponsors, the organization's paid staff and Advisory Committee representative exercise all the rights and privileges of W3C membership." -- http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/organization.html#Organization
# [21:15] <Hixie> right, that's actually saying that only the direct employees of member companies are w3c members
# [21:15] <DanC> and http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/organization.html#MemberRelated 2.1.2 Related Members
# [21:16] <Hixie> again, that's actually limiting the effect of large companies or groups to avoid exactly what you are proposing
# [21:16] <DanC> (more clearly: only direct employees of w3c member organizations are granted access to member-confidential materials.)
# [21:16] <Hixie> right
# [21:17] <Hixie> i nfact section 3.4 is explicit:
# [21:17] <gsnedders> "The Team must ensure that Member participation agreements remain Team-only and that no Member receives preferential treatment within W3C."
# [21:17] <Hixie> "each organization represented in the group MUST have at most one vote"
# [21:17] <Hixie> and "For the purposes of voting:
# [21:17] <Hixie> * A Member or group of related Members is considered a single organization."
# [21:17] <gsnedders> surely that implies that preferring a member like MS over a member with a smaller marketshare like Apple breaks the process?
# [21:17] <Hixie> certainly seems that way to me
# [21:17] <DanC> yes, but the number of votes is not terribly relevant
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# [21:18] <DanC> one vote from a market leader constitutes a strong argument
# [21:18] <gsnedders> DanC: but that's preferring that member
# [21:18] <gsnedders> DanC: which goes against what I quoted
# [21:18] <DanC> it's not preferring; it's acknowledging the role of that member in the deployment of web technology
# [21:18] <Hixie> DanC: ok, but in that case i think i would have to insist that we have a clear list of requirements and a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD, since otherwise i have no way of determining whether progress is being made, which makes it hard for me to defend my continued participation in the w3c with my management
# [21:19] <DanC> insisting on it won't magically create it.
# [21:19] <Hixie> indeed, i was hoping you might create it
# [21:19] <Hixie> since only you are able to do so
# [21:19] <gsnedders> DanC: under en-gb-oed "acknowledging the role of that member in the deployment of web technology" is most certainly preferring
# [21:19] <Hixie> i am willing to help as much as humanly possible
# [21:20] <DanC> the only listsI can think of set an unrealisitically high bar; e.g. yes votes from 80% of the participating W3C member orgs and no formal objections.
# [21:20] <DanC> it's not unfairly preferring
# [21:20] <Hixie> if the requirements are unrealistically high, that would be something i would like to know, rather than just have us fail to meet the goals without knowing what the goals are
# [21:20] <DanC> the goal is consensus
# [21:21] <gsnedders> DanC: the quote didn't say whether the preference was fair or unfair, just that there was a preference.
# [21:21] <Hixie> danc: as in, everyone in the working group agreeing or abstaining or not voting? or something else?
# [21:21] <DanC> yes, the W3C definition of consensus is "everyone in the working group agreeing or abstaining or not voting", plus lots of actual yes votes
# [21:22] <DanC> the goal is alwas consensus; sometimes we settle for less
# [21:22] <DanC> always
# [21:22] <Hixie> so all it would take to perpetually block the working group's work is for me to juts always vote no? that's certainly an interesting situation given the size of this working group. is that really what you are saying?
# [21:22] <DanC> no; noone has veto power
# [21:22] <Hixie> so when do we settle for less? is there some defined way you determine when we should proceed without consensus?
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# [21:23] <Hixie> truly, i just want to know what we need to do to publish the current spec as a FPWD, and when we can do so
# [21:23] <DanC> we settle for less at the chair's discretion, per our charter and W3C process.
# [21:24] <Hixie> ok, but the chair's discretion so far has seemed arbitrary and biased by a minority. as noted above, if this is to continue, i really think we need a clear list of requirements and a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD.
# [21:24] <DanC> I think Dec 2007 is a good goal, though I give it less than even odds. 6 months is too long. 3 months is what I think we can aim for and hit or beat. Q1 2008.
# [21:24] <Hixie> can we have that as a binding timetable in writing?
# [21:24] <DanC> maybe
# [21:24] <DanC> I haven't finished my internal discussion
# [21:26] <Hixie> any idea when that might happen? i don't mean to push, but it's been 8 months so far, so if 6 months is too long as you say, we've already delayed too long.
# [21:26] <mjs> did someone invoke my name in vain?
# [21:26] <DanC> my internal discussion should finish in 1 to 3 weeks
# [21:26] <DanC> I think you do mean to push, and I appreciate it. :)
# [21:26] <gsnedders> mjs: Hixie used your phrase, "unbounded slip"
# [21:27] <Hixie> DanC: ok, i don't mean to seem to be pushing unreasonably :-)
# [21:27] <gsnedders> mjs: (and references it as being yours)
# [21:27] <gsnedders> s/s/d/
# [21:28] <Hixie> DanC: so in 1 to 3 weeks we can get a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD?
# [21:28] <DanC> yes, I expect so.
# [21:28] <Hixie> ok
# [21:28] <Hixie> what should i do if you won't give a a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD in 3 weeks?
# [21:28] <mjs> DanC: if you're weighting members by financial considerations, could we use market capitalization?
# [21:29] <mjs> DanC: then I think google + apple + nokia outweighs microsoft + ibm
# [21:29] * DanC is conflicted... 2 interesting questions at once...
# [21:30] <DanC> recall the goup from the charter about x% of web pages as measured by N auditing orgs? I'm inclined to capture it along those lines in a requirements issue, mjs. something about # of web pages produced/consumed/affected/etc.
# [21:31] <Hixie> well by that measure google probably easily wins, since we publish every page in the google cache...
# [21:31] <DanC> i.e. something like "if the people who deploy 97% of the web agree, with regret that we couldn't make the rest of you happy, we're moving on"
# [21:31] <Hixie> (heck, google has its own line on the netcraft survey, it has so many sites)
# [21:31] <DanC> we'd factor in popularity somehow; i.e. page views
# [21:31] <mjs> I doubt we could ever get the people who deploy 90% of the web in the working group
# [21:31] <mjs> long tail and all
# [21:31] <DanC> ok, salt the numbers to taste
# [21:32] <Hixie> DanC: if i can possibly be so impolite as to ask again... what should i do if you won't give a a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD in 3 weeks?
# [21:33] <DanC> if I don't deliver on ACTION-28 in 1 to 3 weeks, Hixie , you should expect a darned good explanation. And If I don't have one, you should feel justified in taking extreme measures.
# [21:34] <Hixie> ACTION-28 doesn't require you to come up with a binding timetable
# [21:34] <DanC> if I don't deliver on ACTION-28 in 1 to 3 weeks by coming up with a binding timetable, Hixie , you should expect a darned good explanation. And If I don't have one, you should feel justified in taking extreme measures.
# [21:34] <Hixie> ok
# [21:34] <Hixie> thank you
# [21:34] * Hixie marks his calendar
# [21:34] <DanC> likewise.
# [21:35] <mjs> I would also like to see a timetable or a specific checklist or both
# [21:35] <mjs> my experience in software is that slipping by a predefined amount is tolerable, but day for day slip is doom for the project and torture for everyone working on it
# [21:35] <DanC> indeed; the someday pile is no place to be
# [21:36] <DanC> did you see discussion of Dec/6 months/3 months/Q1 2008?
# [21:36] <DanC> replay: I think Dec 2007 is a good goal, though I give it less than even odds. 6 months is too long. 3 months is what I think we can aim for and hit or beat. Q1 2008.
# [21:38] <mjs> if we pick any of those dates and stick with it I would probably be satisfied
# [21:38] <Hixie> i could live with one of those dates as a date to publish the current spec as FPWD, if it is indeed binding
# [21:38] <Lachy> can someone record this decision in the tracker or on the mailing list or something
# [21:40] <DanC> you can, if you mail public-html with "ACTION-28" in the subject or body
# [21:40] <DanC> i.e. anyone can, yes
# [21:40] <Lachy> ok, will do.
# [21:41] <Lachy> I'll just copy the relevant parts of the IRC log
# [21:43] <Julian> for the record: I didn't see any "decision" here. Dan has promised he'll try to come up with a timetable, that's it. Or did I miss something?
# [21:43] <Lachy> Julian, that's what I was referring to
# [21:43] <DanC> dan has taken ACTION-28 and expects to complete it by coming up with a binding timetable
# [21:44] <Julian> ack
# [21:45] <DanC> by the way, mjs, I was royally pissed off when I read http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0414.html the 1st time. I'm sure glad I deleted my first few draft responses :)
# [21:45] <DanC> and I'm sure glad I had a dentist appointment so I couldn't sit and stew, and then I went to the gym and stuff.
# [21:46] <Hixie> you probably felt much like we did after reading the e-mail to which that was a reply :-)
# [21:46] <DanC> yes, I did provoke it to some extent...
# [21:46] <DanC> ... though really, I feel like I'm caught in the middle
# [21:47] <mjs> DanC: I was royally pissed while writing it, perhaps I didn't do a good enough job of toning it down
# [21:47] <DanC> I'm trying to make both/all sides happy, and I'm getting zinged from all sides. But today I'm back to feeling pretty happy that we're all doing our level best.
# [21:49] <DanC> which reminds me of some suggestions in mail from mjs that I'd like to think about more carefully...
# [21:52] <DanC> mjs, re other organizations, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0427.html has a/the list
# [21:53] * DanC noodles on whether 3 months is enough time to change the chater, if it comes to that... yes... it is.
# [21:57] <Dashiva> Just because it might be enough doesn't mean it's going to be enough in practice, though...
# [21:59] * Dashiva was reading through mail backlog and found "While consensus is always a goal, it is not required for publication" by DanC, talking about the HDP.
# [21:59] <Dashiva> Strange coincidence :)
# [21:59] <DanC> I have a lot of control over how long it takes. the formal process is a 4 week review by the W3C membership, preceeded by an unbounded amount of staff discussion (that I'm confident I can keep to 3 weeks) followed by time for The Director to consider the membership reviews (which is traditionally 2 weeks and which I think I can keep to 3)
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# [22:30] * DanC sent mail to process-issues about whether the process document is clear enough about taking market/community position into consideration
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# [23:52] <anne> told the forms tf that the charter review period is over
# [23:55] <Dashiva> Does that mean you'll start work now?
# [23:55] <anne> we're accepting input now
# [23:55] <anne> I don't personally have a proposal
# Session Close: Fri Nov 30 00:00:00 2007

The end :)