/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-08-28 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 28 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:01] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.185.239.97) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  4. # [00:38] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  5. # [00:40] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.232.43)
  6. # [00:48] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254) (Quit: Leaving)
  7. # [01:07] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  8. # [01:27] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  9. # [01:34] * Quits: maddiin (mc@87.185.232.43) (Quit: maddiin)
  10. # [02:01] * Quits: smedero (smedero@66.114.145.154) (Connection reset by peer)
  11. # [02:01] * Joins: smedero_ (smedero@66.114.145.154)
  12. # [02:07] * Quits: aroben_ (aroben@71.58.77.194) (Connection reset by peer)
  13. # [02:31] * Quits: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203) (Ping timeout)
  14. # [02:41] * Quits: smedero_ (smedero@66.114.145.154) (Quit: smedero_)
  15. # [02:55] * Quits: adele (adele@17.203.15.174) (Quit: adele)
  16. # [02:59] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.75) (Quit: .)
  17. # [03:01] * Quits: tH (Rob@77.86.6.71) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9/2008061013])
  18. # [03:05] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  19. # [03:07] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@69.140.40.140)
  20. # [03:10] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  21. # [04:16] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@17.244.16.245) (Quit: mjs_)
  22. # [04:29] * Joins: MikeSmith^ (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  23. # [04:30] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  24. # [05:27] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.194)
  25. # [05:38] * Joins: adele (adele@24.7.125.179)
  26. # [05:38] * Quits: adele (adele@24.7.125.179) (Quit: adele)
  27. # [06:04] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.253.193.147) (Ping timeout)
  28. # [06:09] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.253.193.147)
  29. # [07:01] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  30. # [07:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  31. # [07:06] * Quits: MikeSmith^ (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  32. # [07:22] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  33. # [07:40] * Joins: MikeSmith^ (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  34. # [07:42] * Quits: MikeSmith^ (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  35. # [08:13] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@69.140.40.140) (Quit: Leaving)
  36. # [08:48] * Quits: sryo (sryo@190.245.198.94) (Ping timeout)
  37. # [09:05] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  38. # [09:27] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.0.31)
  39. # [09:49] * Joins: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203)
  40. # [09:51] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  41. # [09:59] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  42. # [10:11] * Joins: heycam (cam@88.128.82.166)
  43. # [10:38] * Quits: heycam (cam@88.128.82.166) (Quit: bye)
  44. # [10:43] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  45. # [10:56] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  46. # [11:03] * Joins: heycam (cam@88.128.85.188)
  47. # [11:05] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.194) (Quit: mjs)
  48. # [11:44] * Joins: tH (Rob@77.86.6.71)
  49. # [11:48] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Client exited)
  50. # [11:48] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  51. # [12:01] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  52. # [12:24] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.228.240)
  53. # [12:29] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  54. # [12:40] * Joins: Dan (1@86.155.6.211)
  55. # [12:51] * Quits: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203) (Ping timeout)
  56. # [12:52] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.0.31) (Ping timeout)
  57. # [12:56] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.185.239.97)
  58. # [13:01] * Joins: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203)
  59. # [13:08] * Quits: heycam (cam@88.128.85.188) (Quit: bye)
  60. # [13:13] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Quit: shepazu)
  61. # [13:50] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.0.31)
  62. # [14:41] * Disconnected
  63. # [14:42] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  64. # [14:42] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  65. # [14:42] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  66. # [14:42] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  67. # [14:51] * Disconnected
  68. # [14:51] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  69. # [14:51] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  70. # [14:51] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  71. # [14:51] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  72. # [14:56] * Disconnected
  73. # [14:56] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  74. # [14:56] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  75. # [14:56] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  76. # [14:56] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  77. # [15:10] * Disconnected
  78. # [15:10] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  79. # [15:10] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  80. # [15:10] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  81. # [15:10] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  82. # [15:16] * Disconnected
  83. # [15:16] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  84. # [15:16] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  85. # [15:16] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  86. # [15:16] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  87. # [15:24] * Disconnected
  88. # [15:25] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  89. # [15:25] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  90. # [15:25] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  91. # [15:25] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  92. # [15:31] * Disconnected
  93. # [15:31] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  94. # [15:31] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  95. # [15:31] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  96. # [15:31] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  97. # [15:48] * Disconnected
  98. # [15:48] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  99. # [15:48] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  100. # [15:48] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  101. # [15:48] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  102. # [15:58] * Disconnected
  103. # [15:58] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  104. # [15:58] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  105. # [15:58] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  106. # [15:58] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  107. # [15:58] * Quits: krijnh (krijnhoetm@213.84.148.98) (Ping timeout)
  108. # [16:02] * Disconnected
  109. # [16:03] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  110. # [16:03] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  111. # [16:03] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  112. # [16:03] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  113. # [16:06] * Disconnected
  114. # [16:06] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  115. # [16:06] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  116. # [16:06] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  117. # [16:06] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  118. # [16:28] * Disconnected
  119. # [16:28] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  120. # [16:28] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  121. # [16:28] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  122. # [16:28] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  123. # [16:28] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
  124. # [16:41] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.75)
  125. # [16:42] * Quits: ed (ed@80.187.147.77) (Quit: ed)
  126. # [16:54] <krijnh> Ping!
  127. # [16:55] * Quits: xover (xover@193.157.66.22) (Client exited)
  128. # [16:55] <Philip> Pong!
  129. # [16:55] * Joins: xover (xover@193.157.66.22)
  130. # [16:56] <krijnh> Hmm
  131. # [16:57] <Lachy> krijnh, are you humming for a reason?
  132. # [17:00] <krijnh> It is sucky connection day today :)
  133. # [17:01] * Joins: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@92.226.143.3)
  134. # [17:01] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.0.31) (Ping timeout)
  135. # [17:02] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
  136. # [17:04] * Joins: heycam (cam@80.187.148.74)
  137. # [17:05] <DanC> hmm... safari 3.1 doesn't grok catch(e if e instanceof ... ) ?
  138. # [17:07] <DanC> JSC should support conditional catch blocks https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9913
  139. # [17:07] <Philip> Seems to be a non-standard extension to ECMAScript
  140. # [17:08] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  141. # [17:09] <Philip> Does anyone except Mozilla support it?
  142. # [17:13] <DanC> do you have a favorite reference site for js, Philip ?
  143. # [17:14] * DanC was using mozilla's , but finds himself deploying on safari...
  144. # [17:14] <DanC> the conditional catch looked a lot like python's except
  145. # [17:14] <Philip> I normally just use developer.mozilla.org
  146. # [17:15] <DanC> yeah, I was using http://developer.mozilla.org/en/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Guide/Exception_Handling_Statements/try...catch_Statement
  147. # [17:15] <DanC> is there a "this isn't standard" clue that I missed?
  148. # [17:16] <Philip> There's always the ECMAScript spec, if you are crazy
  149. # [17:16] <DanC> just tried that. indeed, not as friendly
  150. # [17:17] <Philip> DanC: The only clue I've found is http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:http://devmo.dekiwiki.mozilla.org/en/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference/Statements/try...catch saying "Note: This functionality is not part of the ECMAScript specification."
  151. # [17:17] <Philip> which is not absolutely the most obvious place to look
  152. # [17:18] <smedero> of course documents like this suggest that it is a standard feature: http://www.devarticles.com/c/a/JavaScript/Exception-Handling-in-JavaScript-Introduction-to-Core-Concepts/2/
  153. # [17:18] <smedero> yay!
  154. # [17:19] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.183.190)
  155. # [17:19] <smedero> actually, no it doesn't. i lied. :(
  156. # [17:19] <smedero> there's no nesting there....
  157. # [17:20] <DanC> is there a re-throw mechanism?
  158. # [17:20] <smedero> like: http://developer.mozilla.org/En/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference:Statements:throw
  159. # [17:22] * Quits: heycam (cam@80.187.148.74) (Quit: bye)
  160. # [17:22] <Philip> DanC: SpiderMonkey implements catch(e if c) only when JS_HAS_CATCH_GUARD is defined to true, which http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/js/src/jsconfig.h#96 indicates doesn't happen when it's in ECMAv3 mode
  161. # [17:23] * Joins: ed (ed@80.187.147.106)
  162. # [17:26] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  163. # [17:26] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: Leaving)
  164. # [17:26] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  165. # [17:28] * Quits: ed (ed@80.187.147.106) (Quit: ed)
  166. # [17:35] * Joins: ed (ed@80.187.147.106)
  167. # [17:38] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.226.143.3) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.1a2pre/20080827031643])
  168. # [17:54] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.106)
  169. # [17:57] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.214.167)
  170. # [18:02] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8)
  171. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  172. # [18:02] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  173. # [18:02] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  174. # [18:02] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-irc
  175. # [18:02] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  176. # [18:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  177. # [18:02] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  178. # [18:02] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  179. # [18:02] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
  180. # [18:02] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
  181. # [18:02] <trackbot> Date: 28 August 2008
  182. # [18:03] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  183. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  184. # [18:03] <anne> MikeSmith, I will make sure I make next week, I have to go now :/
  185. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P4
  186. # [18:03] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  187. # [18:03] <oedipus> zakim, ??P4 is Steve_Faulkner
  188. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Steve_Faulkner; got it
  189. # [18:03] <anne> Lachy, could you or zcorpan join to replace me?
  190. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> anne: OK
  191. # [18:03] * Joins: Gez (chatzilla@81.129.28.140)
  192. # [18:03] <anne> Lachy, thanks in advance :)
  193. # [18:03] * anne leaves
  194. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  195. # [18:04] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  196. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Mike
  197. # [18:04] * Stevef hey laura
  198. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Laura
  199. # [18:04] * oedipus gez, do you need the code
  200. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  201. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Steve_Faulkner, Mike, Laura
  202. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aaaa
  203. # [18:04] * Joins: Josh (Josh@87.198.192.206)
  204. # [18:04] <dsinger> zakim, 398.aaaa is me
  205. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '398.aaaa'
  206. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P6
  207. # [18:05] <dsinger> zakim, +1 408.398.aaaa is me
  208. # [18:05] <Zakim> I don't understand '+1 408.398.aaaa is me', dsinger
  209. # [18:05] <oedipus> zakim, +1.408.398.aaaa is dsinger
  210. # [18:05] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  211. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Julian
  212. # [18:05] <dsinger> thx oedipus
  213. # [18:05] <oedipus> no problem dsinger
  214. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P13
  215. # [18:05] * oedipus G e z L e m o n
  216. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P6 is Gez
  217. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Gez; got it
  218. # [18:05] <Josh> zakim, ??P13
  219. # [18:05] <Zakim> I don't understand '??P13', Josh
  220. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P13 is Josh
  221. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Josh; got it
  222. # [18:06] <dsinger> someone needs to mute their phone
  223. # [18:06] * oedipus josh you may need to mut
  224. # [18:06] <Josh> Thanks Mike
  225. # [18:06] <Josh> yup
  226. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  227. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Steve_Faulkner, Mike, Laura, dsinger, Gez, Julian, Josh
  228. # [18:06] <Josh> zakim, mute me
  229. # [18:06] <Zakim> Josh should now be muted
  230. # [18:06] <oedipus> zakim, who is making noise?
  231. # [18:06] <dsinger> aaaaaah
  232. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.425.646.aabb
  233. # [18:06] <Josh> mae culpa
  234. # [18:06] <Zakim> oedipus, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Laura (7%), Gregory_Rosmaita (9%), Mike (55%)
  235. # [18:06] <Josh> No worries
  236. # [18:06] <smedero> zakim, +1.425.646.aabb is me
  237. # [18:06] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  238. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: yoohoo
  239. # [18:07] <ChrisWilson> yeah, I'm joining now - had to kick someone out of my office.
  240. # [18:07] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  241. # [18:07] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  242. # [18:07] <Zakim> +DanC
  243. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  244. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Steve_Faulkner, Mike, Laura, dsinger, Gez, Julian, Josh (muted), smedero, DanC (muted)
  245. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  246. # [18:07] <Josh> am in internet cafe with trad tunes in the background..
  247. # [18:07] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
  248. # [18:07] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  249. # [18:07] <oedipus> zakim, mute me
  250. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  251. # [18:07] <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
  252. # [18:07] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
  253. # [18:08] * oedipus there is grass cutting going on right outside my window
  254. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: if you have time and interest in the headers discussion, would be happy to have you on the call
  255. # [18:08] <Lachy> I'm here now, I suppose I can call in
  256. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Lachy: thanks
  257. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> agenda?
  258. # [18:08] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
  259. # [18:09] <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
  260. # [18:09] <smedero> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  261. # [18:09] <oedipus> scribeNick: oedipus
  262. # [18:09] * oedipus yup
  263. # [18:09] * oedipus i'm on mute
  264. # [18:09] <DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008JulSep/0027.html
  265. # [18:09] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode
  266. # [18:09] <Zakim> I don't understand 'passcode', Lachy
  267. # [18:09] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode?
  268. # [18:09] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy
  269. # [18:09] <Laura> ACTION 72 and ISSUE 57 headers:
  270. # [18:09] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  271. # [18:09] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 72
  272. # [18:09] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
  273. # [18:09] * oedipus homer the blind poet, oedipus the mute scribe
  274. # [18:09] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/57
  275. # [18:09] <Laura> Action 72 Deliverable:
  276. # [18:09] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  277. # [18:09] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 72
  278. # [18:09] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
  279. # [18:09] <Laura> Discussion on public-html for Deliverable for Action 72 @headers
  280. # [18:09] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/thread.html#msg518
  281. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> reviewing issues from tracker?
  282. # [18:09] <Laura> table headers - clear description of problem
  283. # [18:09] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/thread.html#msg679
  284. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P7
  285. # [18:09] <Laura> Previous teleconf discussions:
  286. # [18:09] <Laura> 17 July 2008 meeting (Rough IRC Teleconf minutes only):
  287. # [18:09] <oedipus> TOPIC: ACTION 72 - Table Headers
  288. # [18:09] <Laura> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20080717#l-394
  289. # [18:09] <Laura> 7 July 2008 meeting:
  290. # [18:09] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-minutes.html#item06
  291. # [18:09] <Laura> Bug Report 5822:
  292. # [18:10] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5822
  293. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> action-72?
  294. # [18:10] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-72
  295. # [18:10] <trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Joshue O Connor to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-08-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  296. # [18:10] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
  297. # [18:10] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P7
  298. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  299. # [18:10] <Laura> Recent Testing:
  300. # [18:10] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
  301. # [18:10] <Laura> Previous Testing:
  302. # [18:10] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableAccessibility
  303. # [18:10] <Laura> @headers Issue History:
  304. # [18:10] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
  305. # [18:10] <Laura> @headers has been an issue since May 2007 (Issue is over 15 months old):
  306. # [18:10] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-bac4baeb0cd0ea09b7f76ff9c409740257566408
  307. # [18:10] <Josh> Thanks Laura :-)
  308. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> q?
  309. # [18:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  310. # [18:10] * oedipus someone came prepared
  311. # [18:10] * Julian stop it
  312. # [18:10] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  313. # [18:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  314. # [18:10] * DanC isn't helped by a screenful of URIs that I have no bandwidth to explore
  315. # [18:10] <ChrisWilson> okay, pausing for a moment.
  316. # [18:10] * MikeSmith wonders if Julian will be calling in
  317. # [18:11] * oedipus votes that they are good for the record and i will be pushing minutes so people can look at that
  318. # [18:11] * Julian I'm in the call
  319. # [18:11] <oedipus> MS: what needs to be reviewed?
  320. # [18:11] <oedipus> LC: deliverable
  321. # [18:11] <Josh> The deliverable is on the wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
  322. # [18:11] <smedero> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0518.html
  323. # [18:11] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
  324. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> s/MS: what/CW: what/
  325. # [18:11] * oedipus oops
  326. # [18:12] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  327. # [18:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  328. # [18:12] <Josh> yup
  329. # [18:12] <oedipus> SF: difference is that @headers be allowed on TD
  330. # [18:12] <oedipus> LC: just add "or TD"
  331. # [18:12] * oedipus chrisW are you chairing this week?
  332. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> yes
  333. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> sorry, I'm reading.
  334. # [18:13] <oedipus> chair: Chris_Wilson
  335. # [18:13] * oedipus just administrivial pursuits -
  336. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> q?
  337. # [18:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  338. # [18:13] <oedipus> CW: discussion - pros cons - concerns about this as solution?
  339. # [18:13] <Gez> q+
  340. # [18:13] * Zakim sees Gez on the speaker queue
  341. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> ack Gez
  342. # [18:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  343. # [18:13] <oedipus> q+ to say plus 1
  344. # [18:13] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  345. # [18:13] <Lachy> I'm not clear about what the proposal/issue is
  346. # [18:14] <Laura> The current spec contains a feature that is not implemented by any assistve technology, so there is no method in HTML5 for marking up complex and irregular data tables accessibly. headers/id is well supported by AT and is used to ensure that accessibility of complex irregular data tables. If in the future a new feature becomes well supported by AT's, then remove headers/id feature from the spec. (It is a two word edit)
  347. # [18:14] <Laura> Legacy and current AT's do not support the new HTML5 way of associating header cells and data cells. But they do support headers/id.
  348. # [18:14] <Laura> We know AT implementers support headers/id:
  349. # [18:14] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
  350. # [18:14] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableAccessibility
  351. # [18:14] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-33a3d0ffbf5c6936b165f1ef92a80d98015073fb
  352. # [18:14] <Laura> For AT backwards compatibility alone, Action 72 should be accepted and the definition of the headers attribute be extended to allow the headers attribute to reference a td.
  353. # [18:14] <Lachy> were there example tables provided as evidence that require @headers to reference a TD?
  354. # [18:14] <Laura> Complex and irregular tables cannot be marked up in HTML5 according to the cuurent draft. The current spec does not provide current and legacy AT with the required information about relationships between headers and data. So to support AT's that do not implement the HTML5 algorithms, authors who want to use HTML5 will be forced to write non-conformant code. headers/id needs to be grandfathered into the spec.
  355. # [18:14] <oedipus> GL: concerned that the specification needs to be amended to include multiple references to TD - impossible to mark up an reasonably complex table - ATs already support it, and is lightweight solution, so i would ask it be put back in
  356. # [18:14] <oedipus> ack me
  357. # [18:14] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say plus 1
  358. # [18:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  359. # [18:14] * DanC encourages Laura to slow down a bit and keep IRC notes in sync with audio part of the meeting
  360. # [18:15] <Josh> +1 to Gez
  361. # [18:15] <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 to adding "to TD"
  362. # [18:15] <ChrisWilson> Lachy, did you want to discuss the con side?
  363. # [18:15] <Stevef> +1 to gez
  364. # [18:15] * Lachy notes that my headset isn't working properly, so I will have to type everything and stay on mute
  365. # [18:15] <ChrisWilson> ok, type away.
  366. # [18:16] <Lachy> can someone answer the above question I wrote? --> were there example tables provided as evidence that require @headers to reference a TD?
  367. # [18:16] <Lachy> if so, where are they documented?
  368. # [18:16] <DanC> (anybody have a summary of the arguments against? ah... I find "Why Headers Should Not be Included" part of http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders )
  369. # [18:16] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
  370. # [18:16] * oedipus josh, can you answer lachy's query
  371. # [18:16] <Josh> There are Gez samples?
  372. # [18:17] <oedipus> DC: confused about heirarchical TH
  373. # [18:17] <Josh> Hierarchical headers are not allowed in HTML 5 ..
  374. # [18:17] <Laura> As hierarchical headers are not allowed in HTML5, this means that conceptual headers (cells that contain data and have their own header, but act as a header for other cells in the table) must be marked up as a td. As these cells are conceptually headings, the headers attribute should be able to reference the id attribute of these cells.
  375. # [18:17] <Josh> THanks Gez ..
  376. # [18:17] <oedipus> GZ: if have TH can't have nested TH - will put example in IRC and talk WG through it
  377. # [18:17] <Gez> http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/complexdatatable.html
  378. # [18:17] <Josh> here tis http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/complexdatatable.html
  379. # [18:17] <Josh> snap :-)
  380. # [18:18] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  381. # [18:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  382. # [18:18] * ChrisWilson is processing these examples...
  383. # [18:18] <DanC> <td headers="col9 col9b row1 col8-1b">11,012.34</td>
  384. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> so this is a table with rowspans
  385. # [18:18] * Quits: ed (ed@80.187.147.106) (Quit: ed)
  386. # [18:19] <Lachy> I'd argue that those dates should be marked up as TH, because they are headers
  387. # [18:19] <DanC> odd... <td> for 12/12/2005 and Budgeted
  388. # [18:19] <oedipus> GZ: table which might be used by investment company - small table that demonstrates point of why headers necessary - for each datum, screen reader user needs to know values (has actual headers) - "running cost" is a pure header, but "partner portal" is not a TH, but should be a TD; all data need to be marked up as TD, but need @headers associations for assistive tech to work with such a simple table
  389. # [18:19] <ChrisWilson> but what about budgeted, actual, etc - they can't be THs/
  390. # [18:20] <Lachy> and they're even styled to look like headers, despite using <td> in the markup
  391. # [18:20] <ChrisWilson> @DanC why odd?
  392. # [18:20] <Lachy> so they should just use TH
  393. # [18:20] <oedipus> lachy, style is irrelevant - separate content from presentatio
  394. # [18:20] <Laura> Regarding the idea of nested headers: The headers attribute can reference a th, so if the tds are changed to ths, the relationship would be complete. But that isn't allowed in the editor's draft, as nested headers aren't allowed. It also creates a new problem of what is the automatic scope association of a th in the middle of a table. Does it apply to the row (to the left?, to the right?, both directions?), does it apply to the column (above? below? both
  395. # [18:20] <oedipus> s/presentatio/presentation
  396. # [18:20] <oedipus> DC: look like headers
  397. # [18:20] <oedipus> CW: running dates headers, but not budgeted, actual, etc.
  398. # [18:20] <Lachy> oedipus, I know. But the fact that, to a sited user, they're made to look as if they are headers, then it means the author is trying to convey that they are headers
  399. # [18:21] <Gez> They could have been styled on thead, but that's just how our client styled it
  400. # [18:21] <Lachy> s/sited/sighted/
  401. # [18:21] <oedipus> lachy, not really - they are just "important" to the author
  402. # [18:21] <Josh> These relationships need semantic hooks that AT can use.. hence the suggestion.
  403. # [18:21] <oedipus> MS: table header cell is exact language
  404. # [18:21] <oedipus> MS: not defined in much detail beyond that
  405. # [18:21] <oedipus> CW: could argue that anything that should be considered a header should be a TH?
  406. # [18:22] <Lachy> yes
  407. # [18:22] <oedipus> CW: forecasted in example would then be TH
  408. # [18:22] <oedipus> DC: that would be my first guess
  409. # [18:22] <Josh> tds will act as virtual headers - as such - if their ids can be referenced by headers.
  410. # [18:22] <Josh> By *true* headers, as such.
  411. # [18:23] * Joins: ed (ed@80.187.147.106)
  412. # [18:23] <oedipus> GZ: if had more data in table, total cost of ownership etc. in extreme right column; if ended up with budgeted anual forcast as TH, would look like that is header for rest of row, which isn't correct; nested headers don't make such sent
  413. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about solution of restructuring the data into a different table
  414. # [18:23] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  415. # [18:23] <oedipus> CW: additional content to the right of running cost - essentially making running cost a nested table containing running cost over time, but can't carry table alignment across multiple partner portals
  416. # [18:23] <Josh> At the very least this example shows a deficiency in the current spec that needs to be addressed,
  417. # [18:23] <DanC> (while in this case, "Budgeted" looks like a <th> to me, it seems like there's an established state-of-the-art that uses <td>, and it works, and I don't see much reason to stop them.)
  418. # [18:24] <oedipus> GZ: yes - if sighted easy, if using AT have to drill into table - massive disadvantage
  419. # [18:24] * oedipus drilling into talbes with speech is an uber-drag
  420. # [18:24] <Josh> yes.
  421. # [18:24] <oedipus> q?
  422. # [18:24] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  423. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest that one assessment of this particular table might be that it's simply poorly designed, regardless of what class of user needs to use it
  424. # [18:24] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  425. # [18:24] <ChrisWilson> yes, but we're not in person, so don't see a better way
  426. # [18:24] <ChrisWilson> ack MikeSmith
  427. # [18:24] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about solution of restructuring the data into a different table and to suggest that one assessment of this particular table might be that it's simply
  428. # [18:24] <Zakim> ... poorly designed, regardless of what class of user needs to use it
  429. # [18:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  430. # [18:24] * Julian now at least understands what the issue is about
  431. # [18:24] <Laura> Gez: Most of the examples of complex data tables that require headers/id associations have not been built by hand. They're usually built server-side, after analysts select the data they want to report on, and generating the relationships is easy for the software. When composite data is included, headers are usually required, as the composite data has a finite range that might not run for the remaining column/row. This can sometimes be overcome (if there a
  432. # [18:25] <Josh> Quering and interogating data tables is a complex task for many users of AT.
  433. # [18:25] <Stevef> q+
  434. # [18:25] * Zakim sees Stevef on the speaker queue
  435. # [18:25] <Gez> q+
  436. # [18:25] * Zakim sees Stevef, Gez on the speaker queue