/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-08-28 / end

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  126. # [16:54] <krijnh> Ping!
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  128. # [16:55] <Philip> Pong!
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  130. # [16:56] <krijnh> Hmm
  131. # [16:57] <Lachy> krijnh, are you humming for a reason?
  132. # [17:00] <krijnh> It is sucky connection day today :)
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  137. # [17:05] <DanC> hmm... safari 3.1 doesn't grok catch(e if e instanceof ... ) ?
  138. # [17:07] <DanC> JSC should support conditional catch blocks https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9913
  139. # [17:07] <Philip> Seems to be a non-standard extension to ECMAScript
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  141. # [17:09] <Philip> Does anyone except Mozilla support it?
  142. # [17:13] <DanC> do you have a favorite reference site for js, Philip ?
  143. # [17:14] * DanC was using mozilla's , but finds himself deploying on safari...
  144. # [17:14] <DanC> the conditional catch looked a lot like python's except
  145. # [17:14] <Philip> I normally just use developer.mozilla.org
  146. # [17:15] <DanC> yeah, I was using http://developer.mozilla.org/en/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Guide/Exception_Handling_Statements/try...catch_Statement
  147. # [17:15] <DanC> is there a "this isn't standard" clue that I missed?
  148. # [17:16] <Philip> There's always the ECMAScript spec, if you are crazy
  149. # [17:16] <DanC> just tried that. indeed, not as friendly
  150. # [17:17] <Philip> DanC: The only clue I've found is http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:http://devmo.dekiwiki.mozilla.org/en/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference/Statements/try...catch saying "Note: This functionality is not part of the ECMAScript specification."
  151. # [17:17] <Philip> which is not absolutely the most obvious place to look
  152. # [17:18] <smedero> of course documents like this suggest that it is a standard feature: http://www.devarticles.com/c/a/JavaScript/Exception-Handling-in-JavaScript-Introduction-to-Core-Concepts/2/
  153. # [17:18] <smedero> yay!
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  155. # [17:19] <smedero> actually, no it doesn't. i lied. :(
  156. # [17:19] <smedero> there's no nesting there....
  157. # [17:20] <DanC> is there a re-throw mechanism?
  158. # [17:20] <smedero> like: http://developer.mozilla.org/En/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference:Statements:throw
  159. # [17:22] * Quits: heycam (cam@80.187.148.74) (Quit: bye)
  160. # [17:22] <Philip> DanC: SpiderMonkey implements catch(e if c) only when JS_HAS_CATCH_GUARD is defined to true, which http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/js/src/jsconfig.h#96 indicates doesn't happen when it's in ECMAv3 mode
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  171. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  172. # [18:02] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  173. # [18:02] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  174. # [18:02] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-irc
  175. # [18:02] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  176. # [18:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  177. # [18:02] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  178. # [18:02] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  179. # [18:02] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
  180. # [18:02] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
  181. # [18:02] <trackbot> Date: 28 August 2008
  182. # [18:03] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  183. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  184. # [18:03] <anne> MikeSmith, I will make sure I make next week, I have to go now :/
  185. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P4
  186. # [18:03] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  187. # [18:03] <oedipus> zakim, ??P4 is Steve_Faulkner
  188. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Steve_Faulkner; got it
  189. # [18:03] <anne> Lachy, could you or zcorpan join to replace me?
  190. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> anne: OK
  191. # [18:03] * Joins: Gez (chatzilla@81.129.28.140)
  192. # [18:03] <anne> Lachy, thanks in advance :)
  193. # [18:03] * anne leaves
  194. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  195. # [18:04] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  196. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Mike
  197. # [18:04] * Stevef hey laura
  198. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Laura
  199. # [18:04] * oedipus gez, do you need the code
  200. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  201. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Steve_Faulkner, Mike, Laura
  202. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aaaa
  203. # [18:04] * Joins: Josh (Josh@87.198.192.206)
  204. # [18:04] <dsinger> zakim, 398.aaaa is me
  205. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '398.aaaa'
  206. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P6
  207. # [18:05] <dsinger> zakim, +1 408.398.aaaa is me
  208. # [18:05] <Zakim> I don't understand '+1 408.398.aaaa is me', dsinger
  209. # [18:05] <oedipus> zakim, +1.408.398.aaaa is dsinger
  210. # [18:05] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  211. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Julian
  212. # [18:05] <dsinger> thx oedipus
  213. # [18:05] <oedipus> no problem dsinger
  214. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P13
  215. # [18:05] * oedipus G e z L e m o n
  216. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P6 is Gez
  217. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Gez; got it
  218. # [18:05] <Josh> zakim, ??P13
  219. # [18:05] <Zakim> I don't understand '??P13', Josh
  220. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P13 is Josh
  221. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Josh; got it
  222. # [18:06] <dsinger> someone needs to mute their phone
  223. # [18:06] * oedipus josh you may need to mut
  224. # [18:06] <Josh> Thanks Mike
  225. # [18:06] <Josh> yup
  226. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  227. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Steve_Faulkner, Mike, Laura, dsinger, Gez, Julian, Josh
  228. # [18:06] <Josh> zakim, mute me
  229. # [18:06] <Zakim> Josh should now be muted
  230. # [18:06] <oedipus> zakim, who is making noise?
  231. # [18:06] <dsinger> aaaaaah
  232. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.425.646.aabb
  233. # [18:06] <Josh> mae culpa
  234. # [18:06] <Zakim> oedipus, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Laura (7%), Gregory_Rosmaita (9%), Mike (55%)
  235. # [18:06] <Josh> No worries
  236. # [18:06] <smedero> zakim, +1.425.646.aabb is me
  237. # [18:06] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  238. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: yoohoo
  239. # [18:07] <ChrisWilson> yeah, I'm joining now - had to kick someone out of my office.
  240. # [18:07] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  241. # [18:07] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  242. # [18:07] <Zakim> +DanC
  243. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  244. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Steve_Faulkner, Mike, Laura, dsinger, Gez, Julian, Josh (muted), smedero, DanC (muted)
  245. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  246. # [18:07] <Josh> am in internet cafe with trad tunes in the background..
  247. # [18:07] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
  248. # [18:07] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  249. # [18:07] <oedipus> zakim, mute me
  250. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  251. # [18:07] <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
  252. # [18:07] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
  253. # [18:08] * oedipus there is grass cutting going on right outside my window
  254. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: if you have time and interest in the headers discussion, would be happy to have you on the call
  255. # [18:08] <Lachy> I'm here now, I suppose I can call in
  256. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Lachy: thanks
  257. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> agenda?
  258. # [18:08] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
  259. # [18:09] <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
  260. # [18:09] <smedero> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  261. # [18:09] <oedipus> scribeNick: oedipus
  262. # [18:09] * oedipus yup
  263. # [18:09] * oedipus i'm on mute
  264. # [18:09] <DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008JulSep/0027.html
  265. # [18:09] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode
  266. # [18:09] <Zakim> I don't understand 'passcode', Lachy
  267. # [18:09] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode?
  268. # [18:09] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy
  269. # [18:09] <Laura> ACTION 72 and ISSUE 57 headers:
  270. # [18:09] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  271. # [18:09] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 72
  272. # [18:09] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
  273. # [18:09] * oedipus homer the blind poet, oedipus the mute scribe
  274. # [18:09] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/57
  275. # [18:09] <Laura> Action 72 Deliverable:
  276. # [18:09] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  277. # [18:09] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 72
  278. # [18:09] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
  279. # [18:09] <Laura> Discussion on public-html for Deliverable for Action 72 @headers
  280. # [18:09] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/thread.html#msg518
  281. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> reviewing issues from tracker?
  282. # [18:09] <Laura> table headers - clear description of problem
  283. # [18:09] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/thread.html#msg679
  284. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P7
  285. # [18:09] <Laura> Previous teleconf discussions:
  286. # [18:09] <Laura> 17 July 2008 meeting (Rough IRC Teleconf minutes only):
  287. # [18:09] <oedipus> TOPIC: ACTION 72 - Table Headers
  288. # [18:09] <Laura> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20080717#l-394
  289. # [18:09] <Laura> 7 July 2008 meeting:
  290. # [18:09] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-minutes.html#item06
  291. # [18:09] <Laura> Bug Report 5822:
  292. # [18:10] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5822
  293. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> action-72?
  294. # [18:10] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-72
  295. # [18:10] <trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Joshue O Connor to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-08-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  296. # [18:10] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
  297. # [18:10] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P7
  298. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  299. # [18:10] <Laura> Recent Testing:
  300. # [18:10] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
  301. # [18:10] <Laura> Previous Testing:
  302. # [18:10] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableAccessibility
  303. # [18:10] <Laura> @headers Issue History:
  304. # [18:10] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
  305. # [18:10] <Laura> @headers has been an issue since May 2007 (Issue is over 15 months old):
  306. # [18:10] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-bac4baeb0cd0ea09b7f76ff9c409740257566408
  307. # [18:10] <Josh> Thanks Laura :-)
  308. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> q?
  309. # [18:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  310. # [18:10] * oedipus someone came prepared
  311. # [18:10] * Julian stop it
  312. # [18:10] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  313. # [18:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  314. # [18:10] * DanC isn't helped by a screenful of URIs that I have no bandwidth to explore
  315. # [18:10] <ChrisWilson> okay, pausing for a moment.
  316. # [18:10] * MikeSmith wonders if Julian will be calling in
  317. # [18:11] * oedipus votes that they are good for the record and i will be pushing minutes so people can look at that
  318. # [18:11] * Julian I'm in the call
  319. # [18:11] <oedipus> MS: what needs to be reviewed?
  320. # [18:11] <oedipus> LC: deliverable
  321. # [18:11] <Josh> The deliverable is on the wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
  322. # [18:11] <smedero> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0518.html
  323. # [18:11] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
  324. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> s/MS: what/CW: what/
  325. # [18:11] * oedipus oops
  326. # [18:12] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  327. # [18:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  328. # [18:12] <Josh> yup
  329. # [18:12] <oedipus> SF: difference is that @headers be allowed on TD
  330. # [18:12] <oedipus> LC: just add "or TD"
  331. # [18:12] * oedipus chrisW are you chairing this week?
  332. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> yes
  333. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> sorry, I'm reading.
  334. # [18:13] <oedipus> chair: Chris_Wilson
  335. # [18:13] * oedipus just administrivial pursuits -
  336. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> q?
  337. # [18:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  338. # [18:13] <oedipus> CW: discussion - pros cons - concerns about this as solution?
  339. # [18:13] <Gez> q+
  340. # [18:13] * Zakim sees Gez on the speaker queue
  341. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> ack Gez
  342. # [18:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  343. # [18:13] <oedipus> q+ to say plus 1
  344. # [18:13] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  345. # [18:13] <Lachy> I'm not clear about what the proposal/issue is
  346. # [18:14] <Laura> The current spec contains a feature that is not implemented by any assistve technology, so there is no method in HTML5 for marking up complex and irregular data tables accessibly. headers/id is well supported by AT and is used to ensure that accessibility of complex irregular data tables. If in the future a new feature becomes well supported by AT's, then remove headers/id feature from the spec. (It is a two word edit)
  347. # [18:14] <Laura> Legacy and current AT's do not support the new HTML5 way of associating header cells and data cells. But they do support headers/id.
  348. # [18:14] <Laura> We know AT implementers support headers/id:
  349. # [18:14] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
  350. # [18:14] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableAccessibility
  351. # [18:14] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-33a3d0ffbf5c6936b165f1ef92a80d98015073fb
  352. # [18:14] <Laura> For AT backwards compatibility alone, Action 72 should be accepted and the definition of the headers attribute be extended to allow the headers attribute to reference a td.
  353. # [18:14] <Lachy> were there example tables provided as evidence that require @headers to reference a TD?
  354. # [18:14] <Laura> Complex and irregular tables cannot be marked up in HTML5 according to the cuurent draft. The current spec does not provide current and legacy AT with the required information about relationships between headers and data. So to support AT's that do not implement the HTML5 algorithms, authors who want to use HTML5 will be forced to write non-conformant code. headers/id needs to be grandfathered into the spec.
  355. # [18:14] <oedipus> GL: concerned that the specification needs to be amended to include multiple references to TD - impossible to mark up an reasonably complex table - ATs already support it, and is lightweight solution, so i would ask it be put back in
  356. # [18:14] <oedipus> ack me
  357. # [18:14] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say plus 1
  358. # [18:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  359. # [18:14] * DanC encourages Laura to slow down a bit and keep IRC notes in sync with audio part of the meeting
  360. # [18:15] <Josh> +1 to Gez
  361. # [18:15] <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 to adding "to TD"
  362. # [18:15] <ChrisWilson> Lachy, did you want to discuss the con side?
  363. # [18:15] <Stevef> +1 to gez
  364. # [18:15] * Lachy notes that my headset isn't working properly, so I will have to type everything and stay on mute
  365. # [18:15] <ChrisWilson> ok, type away.
  366. # [18:16] <Lachy> can someone answer the above question I wrote? --> were there example tables provided as evidence that require @headers to reference a TD?
  367. # [18:16] <Lachy> if so, where are they documented?
  368. # [18:16] <DanC> (anybody have a summary of the arguments against? ah... I find "Why Headers Should Not be Included" part of http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders )
  369. # [18:16] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
  370. # [18:16] * oedipus josh, can you answer lachy's query
  371. # [18:16] <Josh> There are Gez samples?
  372. # [18:17] <oedipus> DC: confused about heirarchical TH
  373. # [18:17] <Josh> Hierarchical headers are not allowed in HTML 5 ..
  374. # [18:17] <Laura> As hierarchical headers are not allowed in HTML5, this means that conceptual headers (cells that contain data and have their own header, but act as a header for other cells in the table) must be marked up as a td. As these cells are conceptually headings, the headers attribute should be able to reference the id attribute of these cells.
  375. # [18:17] <Josh> THanks Gez ..
  376. # [18:17] <oedipus> GZ: if have TH can't have nested TH - will put example in IRC and talk WG through it
  377. # [18:17] <Gez> http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/complexdatatable.html
  378. # [18:17] <Josh> here tis http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/complexdatatable.html
  379. # [18:17] <Josh> snap :-)
  380. # [18:18] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  381. # [18:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  382. # [18:18] * ChrisWilson is processing these examples...
  383. # [18:18] <DanC> <td headers="col9 col9b row1 col8-1b">11,012.34</td>
  384. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> so this is a table with rowspans
  385. # [18:18] * Quits: ed (ed@80.187.147.106) (Quit: ed)
  386. # [18:19] <Lachy> I'd argue that those dates should be marked up as TH, because they are headers
  387. # [18:19] <DanC> odd... <td> for 12/12/2005 and Budgeted
  388. # [18:19] <oedipus> GZ: table which might be used by investment company - small table that demonstrates point of why headers necessary - for each datum, screen reader user needs to know values (has actual headers) - "running cost" is a pure header, but "partner portal" is not a TH, but should be a TD; all data need to be marked up as TD, but need @headers associations for assistive tech to work with such a simple table
  389. # [18:19] <ChrisWilson> but what about budgeted, actual, etc - they can't be THs/
  390. # [18:20] <Lachy> and they're even styled to look like headers, despite using <td> in the markup
  391. # [18:20] <ChrisWilson> @DanC why odd?
  392. # [18:20] <Lachy> so they should just use TH
  393. # [18:20] <oedipus> lachy, style is irrelevant - separate content from presentatio
  394. # [18:20] <Laura> Regarding the idea of nested headers: The headers attribute can reference a th, so if the tds are changed to ths, the relationship would be complete. But that isn't allowed in the editor's draft, as nested headers aren't allowed. It also creates a new problem of what is the automatic scope association of a th in the middle of a table. Does it apply to the row (to the left?, to the right?, both directions?), does it apply to the column (above? below? both
  395. # [18:20] <oedipus> s/presentatio/presentation
  396. # [18:20] <oedipus> DC: look like headers
  397. # [18:20] <oedipus> CW: running dates headers, but not budgeted, actual, etc.
  398. # [18:20] <Lachy> oedipus, I know. But the fact that, to a sited user, they're made to look as if they are headers, then it means the author is trying to convey that they are headers
  399. # [18:21] <Gez> They could have been styled on thead, but that's just how our client styled it
  400. # [18:21] <Lachy> s/sited/sighted/
  401. # [18:21] <oedipus> lachy, not really - they are just "important" to the author
  402. # [18:21] <Josh> These relationships need semantic hooks that AT can use.. hence the suggestion.
  403. # [18:21] <oedipus> MS: table header cell is exact language
  404. # [18:21] <oedipus> MS: not defined in much detail beyond that
  405. # [18:21] <oedipus> CW: could argue that anything that should be considered a header should be a TH?
  406. # [18:22] <Lachy> yes
  407. # [18:22] <oedipus> CW: forecasted in example would then be TH
  408. # [18:22] <oedipus> DC: that would be my first guess
  409. # [18:22] <Josh> tds will act as virtual headers - as such - if their ids can be referenced by headers.
  410. # [18:22] <Josh> By *true* headers, as such.
  411. # [18:23] * Joins: ed (ed@80.187.147.106)
  412. # [18:23] <oedipus> GZ: if had more data in table, total cost of ownership etc. in extreme right column; if ended up with budgeted anual forcast as TH, would look like that is header for rest of row, which isn't correct; nested headers don't make such sent
  413. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about solution of restructuring the data into a different table
  414. # [18:23] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  415. # [18:23] <oedipus> CW: additional content to the right of running cost - essentially making running cost a nested table containing running cost over time, but can't carry table alignment across multiple partner portals
  416. # [18:23] <Josh> At the very least this example shows a deficiency in the current spec that needs to be addressed,
  417. # [18:23] <DanC> (while in this case, "Budgeted" looks like a <th> to me, it seems like there's an established state-of-the-art that uses <td>, and it works, and I don't see much reason to stop them.)
  418. # [18:24] <oedipus> GZ: yes - if sighted easy, if using AT have to drill into table - massive disadvantage
  419. # [18:24] * oedipus drilling into talbes with speech is an uber-drag
  420. # [18:24] <Josh> yes.
  421. # [18:24] <oedipus> q?
  422. # [18:24] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  423. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest that one assessment of this particular table might be that it's simply poorly designed, regardless of what class of user needs to use it
  424. # [18:24] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  425. # [18:24] <ChrisWilson> yes, but we're not in person, so don't see a better way
  426. # [18:24] <ChrisWilson> ack MikeSmith
  427. # [18:24] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about solution of restructuring the data into a different table and to suggest that one assessment of this particular table might be that it's simply
  428. # [18:24] <Zakim> ... poorly designed, regardless of what class of user needs to use it
  429. # [18:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  430. # [18:24] * Julian now at least understands what the issue is about
  431. # [18:24] <Laura> Gez: Most of the examples of complex data tables that require headers/id associations have not been built by hand. They're usually built server-side, after analysts select the data they want to report on, and generating the relationships is easy for the software. When composite data is included, headers are usually required, as the composite data has a finite range that might not run for the remaining column/row. This can sometimes be overcome (if there a
  432. # [18:25] <Josh> Quering and interogating data tables is a complex task for many users of AT.
  433. # [18:25] <Stevef> q+
  434. # [18:25] * Zakim sees Stevef on the speaker queue
  435. # [18:25] <Gez> q+
  436. # [18:25] * Zakim sees Stevef, Gez on the speaker queue
  437. # [18:25] <oedipus> MS: part of discussion and solutions that have been advanced for some cases - don't know if this table falls into that case - there are certain tables that are fundamentally badly designed - not fixing poor design by adding features for AT software - better solution is to redesign table
  438. # [18:25] <oedipus> q+
  439. # [18:25] * Zakim sees Stevef, Gez, oedipus on the speaker queue
  440. # [18:25] <DanC> q+ to wonder about "poorly designed" vs established norms
  441. # [18:25] * Zakim sees Stevef, Gez, oedipus, DanC on the speaker queue
  442. # [18:26] <oedipus> MS: do wonder about case of fixing via markup versus fixing data into more appropriate form; nested rowspans can be presented in other ways that don't rely on rowspans
  443. # [18:26] <oedipus> DC: true
  444. # [18:26] <Laura> "It may be true that it is possible to restructure many complex data tables by adding rowgroup or colgroup elements to the table and by altering the spans of cells in such a way that the scope attribute can specify the header cells for all data cells. I am not convinced but it is true for some of the "classic" examples. That process is complicated and cumbersome. It basically requires rewriting the table. Compare that with the headers/id approach. ANY Tab
  445. # [18:26] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0103.html
  446. # [18:26] <ChrisWilson> s DC/CW
  447. # [18:26] <oedipus> MS: not helping by enabling bad design
  448. # [18:26] <oedipus> q?
  449. # [18:26] * Zakim sees Stevef, Gez, oedipus, DanC on the speaker queue
  450. # [18:27] <oedipus> CW: suggesting re-design table model to take into account compound data scenarios
  451. # [18:27] <oedipus> MS: right
  452. # [18:27] <Josh> @MS: The mark up should facilitate how authors *will* mark up tables, though I agree that tables are often very badly designed.
  453. # [18:27] <smedero> Gez, do you have an URL for an unmodified "complexdatatable" example available? (with the additional rows and such to the right of the "running cost")
  454. # [18:27] <oedipus> CW: not sure if suggesting way solving problem in example - can understand why this set of data would be presented in this manner - is a compound data scenario - not representible today, so authors have to use hack; are you saying authors shouldn't do this or improve the table algorithm
  455. # [18:28] <Josh> Note that headers/id association are rather well supported by much current AT so Gez's solution is rather simple and elegant.
  456. # [18:28] <oedipus> MS: case-by-case stuff comes up and have to decide if real solution is restructuring the data
  457. # [18:28] <ChrisWilson> q?
  458. # [18:28] * Zakim sees Stevef, Gez, oedipus, DanC on the speaker queue
  459. # [18:28] <ChrisWilson> ack Stevef
  460. # [18:28] * Zakim sees Gez, oedipus, DanC on the speaker queue
  461. # [18:28] <oedipus> MS: don't know if would be right solution for majority of cases, but been discussed on list
  462. # [18:29] <Josh> Will authors change the way that they mark up tables that much as we transition to HTML 5? Probably not.
  463. # [18:29] * Quits: ed (ed@80.187.147.106) (Quit: ed)
  464. # [18:29] <DanC> q-
  465. # [18:29] * Zakim sees Gez, oedipus on the speaker queue
  466. # [18:29] <DanC> (Steve is making the point I was queued to make)
  467. # [18:29] <oedipus> SF: understand MS' argument, but this table is an example of a table that came from a custormer - generated by database into multiple formats, all quite complex - shouldn't be in business of telling people how to order data, rather than providing binding so data can be presented in accordance with author's wishes/client's needs
  468. # [18:29] <oedipus> SF: cannot markup tables in this way" proscription will be ignored
  469. # [18:30] <Josh> +1 Steve and Dan.
  470. # [18:30] <ChrisWilson> q?
  471. # [18:30] * Zakim sees Gez, oedipus on the speaker queue
  472. # [18:30] <ChrisWilson> ack Gez
  473. # [18:30] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  474. # [18:30] <Josh> Real world cases will define how the language should behave to a degree..
  475. # [18:30] <oedipus> SF: need to provide way to mark up so is accessible - people are doing this, and that isn't going to change
  476. # [18:31] <ChrisWilson> ack oedipus
  477. # [18:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  478. # [18:31] <oedipus> GZ: user-generated table - generated on options user has determined - user should be able to exert control over data - this is what people are asking for: information in the order that they want to see it - if marked up like this SR users will be disadvantaged
  479. # [18:31] <DanC> (I'm not interested in using HTML conformance to enforce some idea of "good style". if the software out there groks @headers -> <td> and people are making use of it, seems OK to me. I don't see much reason to upset this applecart.)
  480. # [18:31] <oedipus> zakim, unmute Greogory_Rosmaita
  481. # [18:31] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Greogory_Rosmaita
  482. # [18:31] <oedipus> zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
  483. # [18:31] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
  484. # [18:33] <Josh> @GJR: Tables are presentational. They only have meaning by the semantic associations that are given to them. The user should be able to control the data to get what they need. User needs will vary. One size does not fit all.
  485. # [18:33] * oedipus thanks josh
  486. # [18:33] <Laura> People who use screen readers listen to information, without any visual cues. They currently rely on the headers/id mechanism to be able to comprehend complex table data.
  487. # [18:33] <oedipus> CW: enforcing an association with tables being presentational not understand
  488. # [18:33] * Quits: Dan (1@86.155.6.211) (Quit: Dan)
  489. # [18:33] <Stevef> q+
  490. # [18:33] * Zakim sees Stevef on the speaker queue
  491. # [18:34] <oedipus> GJR: purely presentational
  492. # [18:34] <oedipus> CW: want to steer away from TABLE as presentational and semantic
  493. # [18:34] <oedipus> CW: semantic needs to be conveyed which is point of @header
  494. # [18:34] <Josh> @Chris: Yes.
  495. # [18:34] <dsinger> (sorry guys I have to drop off the phone...and step away from IRC...)
  496. # [18:34] <Zakim> -dsinger
  497. # [18:35] <ChrisWilson> Lachy, did you have any comments on the example?
  498. # [18:35] <Lachy> no
  499. # [18:35] <Josh> GJR: Tables are presentational. By definition of the X/Y relationships the explicit associations must be programatic..
  500. # [18:35] <ChrisWilson> do you accept it as an interesting example?
  501. # [18:35] <ChrisWilson> ack Stevef
  502. # [18:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  503. # [18:36] <oedipus> GJR: no gestalt view, no semantic info from TABLE
  504. # [18:36] * DanC nak
  505. # [18:36] <Zakim> -Steve_Faulkner
  506. # [18:36] <oedipus> GJR: hence need for headers/id bindings
  507. # [18:36] * tlr is now known as tlr-bbiab
  508. # [18:36] <oedipus> CW: SF was asking downside of taking this on
  509. # [18:36] <Josh> Is there a down side to the proposal?
  510. # [18:37] <jgraham> Hmm. looks like I might have had an opinion here
  511. # [18:37] <Lachy> ChrisWilson, sure, it's interesting. I don't agree with the way it's all marked up, as pointed out before, but it still has some interesting issues
  512. # [18:37] * jgraham is working on other things atm
  513. # [18:37] <Josh> +1 Chris
  514. # [18:37] <Laura> +1
  515. # [18:37] <ChrisWilson> is there any dissenting opinion?
  516. # [18:37] <oedipus> CW: good example we've been discussion - should explicitly link-to in ACTION - makes enough sense to me to say we should extend definition of headers to included TDs - need demonstrated, no compelling counter agruments advanced
  517. # [18:37] <oedipus> GJR: plus 1
  518. # [18:38] <Julian> +1
  519. # [18:38] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8) (Ping timeout)
  520. # [18:38] <oedipus> CW: explicitly said would be discussed and polled here - if had strong opinion, expected people to show up or articulate position on list
  521. # [18:38] <Josh> Good stuff.
  522. # [18:38] <oedipus> CW: would like to close this
  523. # [18:38] * Joins: Stevef__ (chatzilla@82.44.69.8)
  524. # [18:38] * Stevef__ is now known as Stevef
  525. # [18:38] <oedipus> CW: with no formal objections to why this is a good idea, would like to close
  526. # [18:38] <Zakim> +??P3
  527. # [18:38] <Lachy> all of this discussion needs to be summarised and posted to the mailing lists where I and others, can have more time to analyise it thoroughly
  528. # [18:38] <jgraham> Can someone fill me on briefly on what the idea is
  529. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P3 is Steven
  530. # [18:39] <Zakim> +Steven; got it
  531. # [18:39] * oedipus lachy, consult the esw wiki pages - they are very conscientiously updated
  532. # [18:39] <DanC> Lachy, I'm pretty confident all the arguments made on the phone today are already in email
  533. # [18:39] <Stevef> zakim, ??P3 is steve_f
  534. # [18:39] <Zakim> I already had ??P3 as Steven, Stevef
  535. # [18:39] <Josh> @James: See http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers#head-14f006a74dc57f338be03afe43e7409e9828a86f
  536. # [18:39] <oedipus> CW: no one yet objected with good arguement; in lack of counter argument, feel this should be considered right solution
  537. # [18:39] <oedipus> LC: thanks
  538. # [18:39] <Lachy> DanC, good. But I still don't think that making a binding decision like this on a telcon is the right approach
  539. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> jgraham: idea is that there are cases where @headers seems to be needed on th
  540. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> not just on td
  541. # [18:40] <Josh> thats it.
  542. # [18:40] <Gez> It's the opposite of what Mike Smith just said
  543. # [18:40] <Lachy> wait, I thought it was just about having headers reference a TD, not that it should also be usable on TH?
  544. # [18:40] <oedipus> TOPIC: ACTION ITEM REVIEW
  545. # [18:40] <DanC> Lachy, I suppose the decision isn't binding until it's been put to the WG
  546. # [18:40] <jgraham> Oh, I have already explained why I think that is a bad approach in general
  547. # [18:40] <oedipus> CW: MikeSmith, you have 2 due
  548. # [18:40] <Josh> sorry, long day..
  549. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/complexdatatable.html is the example under discussion
  550. # [18:40] <oedipus> CW: reviewed agenda tracker, disposed of first item
  551. # [18:41] <Josh> zakim, unmute me
  552. # [18:41] <Zakim> Josh should no longer be muted
  553. # [18:41] <jgraham> MikeSmith: For that particular example it is not needed as far as I can tell
  554. # [18:41] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  555. # [18:41] <oedipus> TOPIC: Issue 57 not a Duplicate of Issue 20
  556. # [18:41] <ChrisWilson> item 3 - discuss why issue-57 is not a dupe of issue-20
  557. # [18:41] <Stevef> q+
  558. # [18:41] * Zakim sees Stevef on the speaker queue
  559. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> to jgraham - Stevef and Gez have pointed out that table is an actual table from one of their customers
  560. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> q?
  561. # [18:41] * Zakim sees Stevef on the speaker queue
  562. # [18:41] <jgraham> (although my alternative proposal is also a modification of the current sec)
  563. # [18:41] <jgraham> s/sec/spec/
  564. # [18:41] <ChrisWilson> ack stevef
  565. # [18:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  566. # [18:41] <oedipus> JOC: discussion we just had was sufficient to explain difference - lot of discussion same as table issue - markup versus design; bit of non-issue for me, really
  567. # [18:42] <Josh> zakim, mute me
  568. # [18:42] <Zakim> Josh should now be muted
  569. # [18:42] <oedipus> SF: process point: discussed and said "right thing to do" - how will progress?
  570. # [18:42] <Josh> @james: Rationale for Changing the Spec
  571. # [18:42] <Josh> * The constraint that the headers attribute can only reference the id attribute value of a header cell is of very little use, and makes it impossible to define most complex data tables accessibly.
  572. # [18:42] <Josh> * A mechanism to associate data cells with conceptual header cells and pure headings is required to determine content relationships.
  573. # [18:42] <Josh> *
  574. # [18:42] <Josh> For further rationale and history of this issue consult the reference section below.
  575. # [18:42] <Josh> HTH
  576. # [18:42] * MikeSmith wondering if jgraham has URL to his alternative proposal
  577. # [18:42] <oedipus> CW: took action item assigned to josh and will figure out how to ensure edit gets made in timely fashion
  578. # [18:42] <oedipus> SF: thank you
  579. # [18:42] <oedipus> CW: missing alt issue (31)?
  580. # [18:43] <ChrisWilson> topic: briefly discuss missing-alt issue-31
  581. # [18:43] <oedipus> TOPIC: Issue 31 - Missing @alt issue
  582. # [18:43] <DanC> action-54?
  583. # [18:43] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-54
  584. # [18:43] <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-08-29 -- OPEN
  585. # [18:43] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  586. # [18:43] <Laura> Action 54: First Draft
  587. # [18:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  588. # [18:43] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 54
  589. # [18:43] * RRSAgent records action 1
  590. # [18:43] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action54AltAttribute
  591. # [18:43] <Laura> Action 54: Second Draft
  592. # [18:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  593. # [18:43] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 54
  594. # [18:43] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action54AltAttributeSecondDraft
  595. # [18:43] * RRSAgent records action 2
  596. # [18:43] <Laura> Action 54: Third Draft
  597. # [18:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  598. # [18:43] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 54
  599. # [18:43] * RRSAgent records action 3
  600. # [18:43] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action54AltAttributeThirdDraft
  601. # [18:43] <oedipus> DC: action 54 - chris collecting info from PF WG - latest from AlG chair of PF is not done yet - ETA?
  602. # [18:43] <oedipus> CW: that is on my list of things to discuss with Al
  603. # [18:44] <Stevef> q+
  604. # [18:44] * Zakim sees Stevef on the speaker queue
  605. # [18:44] <Laura> The Third Draft takes a minimalist apporach because the cuurent editor's draft includes guidance on how authors should include text alternatives for images, and some of the guidance is incorrect; such as suggesting that it's not always reasonable to provide alt text, which will become open to abuse. That guidance needs to be removed from the HTML5 specification, and the specification should instead point authors to WCAG, authoring tools to ATAG, and user
  606. # [18:44] <oedipus> DC: input pending from PF still; other piece of state-of-art is ...
  607. # [18:44] <DanC> recent summary from the editor http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0759.html
  608. # [18:44] <Laura> The second draft version is still waiting for a reply from the PFWG regarding our March and April requests:
  609. # [18:44] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0408.html
  610. # [18:44] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0234.html
  611. # [18:44] <Laura> I emailed Al for an update a while ago:
  612. # [18:44] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Aug/0024.html
  613. # [18:44] <DanC> and new proposal
  614. # [18:44] <jgraham> Josh: did you see my laternative proposal? I think it's much easier for authors in that case and, given a choice between the two (they are not mutually exclusive) a better win for accessibility on the whole web
  615. # [18:44] <Josh> @James: No, will have a look. Have you a ref?
  616. # [18:44] <oedipus> DC: 15 or so options
  617. # [18:44] <DanC> [[
  618. # [18:44] <DanC> F. We could say that for these "key content without alt text" cases, we
  619. # [18:44] <DanC> have the alt="" attribute omitted, but there must be at least one of the
  620. # [18:44] <DanC> above, and the first of the above that is present must include sufficient
  621. # [18:44] <DanC> information to orient the user.
  622. # [18:44] <DanC> ]]
  623. # [18:44] <Laura> We still need their input on all three drafts.
  624. # [18:45] <oedipus> q+
  625. # [18:45] * Zakim sees Stevef, oedipus on the speaker queue
  626. # [18:45] <DanC> [[
  627. # [18:45] <DanC> Are there cases where the image is lacking good alt text that wouldn't be
  628. # [18:45] <DanC> covered by one of the following?:
  629. # [18:45] <DanC> - title="" attribute on the <img> itself
  630. # [18:45] <DanC> - <legend> of the <figure> that contains the <img>
  631. # [18:45] <DanC> - heading of the section that contains the <img>
  632. # [18:45] <DanC> F. We could say that for these "key content without alt text" cases, we
  633. # [18:45] <DanC> have the alt="" attribute omitted, but there must be at least one of the
  634. # [18:45] <DanC> above, and the first of the above that is present must include sufficient
  635. # [18:45] <Laura> Karl's proposal:
  636. # [18:45] <Laura> "All img elements must have the alt content attribute set. The accessibility requirements on the possible values of the alt attributes are defined by WCAG 2.0 and not HTML 5."
  637. # [18:45] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0437.html
  638. # [18:45] <DanC> information to orient the user.
  639. # [18:45] <DanC> ]]
  640. # [18:45] <oedipus> q?
  641. # [18:45] * Zakim sees Stevef, oedipus on the speaker queue
  642. # [18:45] <jgraham> Josh: I'm just looking
  643. # [18:45] <oedipus> CW: anything to discuss on call, DanC?
  644. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> q+ to just note that the alt="{photo}" stuff is gone now
  645. # [18:45] * Zakim sees Stevef, oedipus, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  646. # [18:45] <ChrisWilson> ack stevef
  647. # [18:45] * Zakim sees oedipus, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  648. # [18:45] <oedipus> DC: no, but others have input
  649. # [18:45] <smedero> There was also T.V. Raman's proposal (based on Ian's proposal "F"): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/att-0829/image-alt.html
  650. # [18:46] <Josh> @James: Why not add your idea to the tracker?
  651. # [18:46] <oedipus> SF: this action has been open for a while, but the spec has changed significantly a number of times since issue officially opened - this last one just last week -- PF has to re-evaluate every time a change occurs - PF is now dedicating weekly telecons to HTML5 issues so should expedite feedback from PF to HTML WG
  652. # [18:46] <ChrisWilson> ack oedipus
  653. # [18:46] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  654. # [18:47] <Josh> @Steve: Yes.
  655. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
  656. # [18:47] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to just note that the alt="{photo}" stuff is gone now
  657. # [18:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  658. # [18:47] <ChrisWilson> unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
  659. # [18:47] <oedipus> GJR: working on @role for media specific and all objects
  660. # [18:48] <oedipus> GJR: legend maps to @alt; desc to @longdesc - http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/RoleAttribute
  661. # [18:48] <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/MediaSpecificElements
  662. # [18:48] <jgraham> Josh: It's roughly explained in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0561.html and the sample implementation is http://tinyurl.com/624mko (it's not clear what markup changes I made there)
  663. # [18:48] <oedipus> DC: TV Raman's input - make @alt optional - @role for graphical elements
  664. # [18:48] <Josh> @thanks James.. Do add to tracker.
  665. # [18:49] <oedipus> GJR: please consult the 2 esw wiki pages above - my phone is somewhere on the floor
  666. # [18:49] <oedipus> GJR: flickr case is server-side tool problem, not spec problem
  667. # [18:50] <oedipus> CW: confused - camera do provide metadata, but of limited/no use
  668. # [18:50] <oedipus> LC: date data could be useful
  669. # [18:50] <oedipus> DC: allows you to tell photo from screen shot
  670. # [18:50] <Lachy> I already posted my comments about the EXIF metadata issue to the list. TV Ramen failed to provide any use cases, or explain why a DOM API is useful at all, as opposed to a a UA specific UI for accessing it
  671. # [18:50] <oedipus> CW: not really - allows you to tell picture taken from digital camera, but not screen shot which could be output of a digital device
  672. # [18:51] <oedipus> CW: if access data is there, may be useful and interesting - it not being there, though is the common case and lack of it doesn't tell anyone anything
  673. # [18:51] <ChrisWilson> q?
  674. # [18:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  675. # [18:51] * tlr-bbiab is now known as tlr
  676. # [18:51] <oedipus> CW: like to discuss more - pretty lively discussion - would be glad to hold over for another week
  677. # [18:51] <oedipus> CW: any other comments?
  678. # [18:51] <oedipus> [no comments]
  679. # [18:52] <ChrisWilson> topic issue-54
  680. # [18:52] <oedipus> TOPIC: ISSUE 54
  681. # [18:52] <oedipus> CW: MikeS had action
  682. # [18:52] * DanC Zakim, is julian here?
  683. # [18:52] * Zakim probably, DanC; Julian arrived 47 minutes ago
  684. # [18:52] <oedipus> MS: talked with julian about it last week; julian argued that cases henri brought up were edge cases; other issues around why can't produce HTML5 conformant output with current XSLT schemas
  685. # [18:53] <Lachy> Those are problems that need to be addressed in the XSLT specification, not the HTML5 spec
  686. # [18:54] <oedipus> MS: ready to bring proposal to group: optional public identifier on DOCTYPE - julian posted to list on overlapping issue - don't know the events associated with empty elements in HTML5 - in text/html not going to produce empty elements; wanted to ask julian if wants to go ahead with idea of adding public id to doctype as optional part of doctype
  687. # [18:54] <oedipus> JR: should do - discussion on how to produce empty element should be discussed - concerned that more pieces of code in world than XSLT engines that make decisions about empty elements that cannot be represented as start text with end text
  688. # [18:55] <oedipus> JR: should be discussed as 2 issues
  689. # [18:55] <Lachy> No, it is not a good idea to place constraints on the development of HTML based on the flaws of other tools/langauges
  690. # [18:55] <oedipus> MS: will go forward with them as 2 separate issue
  691. # [18:55] <oedipus> JR: ok
  692. # [18:55] <ChrisWilson> topic: discuss issue-55
  693. # [18:55] <ChrisWilson> (head-profile issue)
  694. # [18:55] <oedipus> TOPIC: @profile for HEAD (Issue 55)
  695. # [18:55] <oedipus> DC: question hasn't been put, so not much to discuss
  696. # [18:55] <Julian> Lachy, the flaw is in HTML (requiring out of band knowledge about the format)
  697. # [18:55] <oedipus> CW: dependent upon an action item?
  698. # [18:56] <DanC> action-75?
  699. # [18:56] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-75
  700. # [18:56] <trackbot> ACTION-75 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion -- due 2008-08-28 -- OPEN
  701. # [18:56] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75
  702. # [18:56] <ChrisWilson> any other items for discussion?
  703. # [18:56] <oedipus> [fyi] plus 1 to leave @profile IN
  704. # [18:56] <oedipus> CW: move to adjourn
  705. # [18:56] <ChrisWilson> move to adjourn?
  706. # [18:56] <oedipus> DC: seconded
  707. # [18:56] <Julian> bye
  708. # [18:56] <Lachy> Julian, no, I disagree
  709. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Julian
  710. # [18:56] <Lachy> bye
  711. # [18:56] <ChrisWilson> thanks all.
  712. # [18:56] <Josh> Bye
  713. # [18:56] <oedipus> ADJOURNED
  714. # [18:56] <Stevef> see ya!
  715. # [18:56] <Zakim> -smedero
  716. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Lachy
  717. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Gez
  718. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  719. # [18:56] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  720. # [18:56] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  721. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Mike
  722. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  723. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Steven
  724. # [18:56] * oedipus will push the minutes - hope i can find the phone on the floor
  725. # [18:57] <ChrisWilson> heh
  726. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Laura
  727. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> oedipus: thatnks
  728. # [18:57] <ChrisWilson> Thanks for scribing, Gregory.
  729. # [18:57] <oedipus> zakim, drop Gregory_Rosmaita
  730. # [18:57] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita is being disconnected
  731. # [18:57] <ChrisWilson> 1
  732. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  733. # [18:57] <Laura> bye
  734. # [18:57] <oedipus> no problem guys - good meeting
  735. # [18:57] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  736. # [18:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  737. # [18:57] <oedipus> zakim, please part
  738. # [18:57] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Steve_Faulkner, Mike, Laura, dsinger, Julian, Gez, Josh, smedero, DanC, ChrisWilson, Lachy, Steven, Cynthia_Shelly
  739. # [18:57] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  740. # [18:57] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  741. # [18:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  742. # [18:57] <DanC> Zakim, drop DanC
  743. # [18:58] * oedipus any regrets, DanC or MS or CW?
  744. # [18:58] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  745. # [18:58] * oedipus no, not personal regrets, regrets for the meeting
  746. # [18:58] <ChrisWilson> umm, I don't think I saw any, no.
  747. # [18:58] * oedipus just wanted to check
  748. # [18:58] <ChrisWilson> (heh. yeah, we aren't going THERE.)
  749. # [18:58] <oedipus> lol
  750. # [18:59] * oedipus there are a bunch of faux action items - should i try and kill them using rrsagent?
  751. # [18:59] <ChrisWilson> 1
  752. # [18:59] <oedipus> [NEW] ACTION: 54 to First Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
  753. # [18:59] <oedipus> [NEW] ACTION: 54 to Second Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
  754. # [18:59] <oedipus> [NEW] ACTION: 54 to Third Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]
  755. # [19:00] * oedipus think they were residue of agenda input/topic input
  756. # [19:00] * Quits: Josh (Josh@87.198.192.206) (Quit: Quitting!)
  757. # [19:00] <ChrisWilson> go for it
  758. # [19:00] * oedipus rrsagent and script very sensitive to action-XX and issue-YY
  759. # [19:00] <oedipus> ok, will do
  760. # [19:00] * Quits: Gez (chatzilla@81.129.28.140) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208])
  761. # [19:00] <oedipus> rrsagent, drop action 1
  762. # [19:00] <RRSAgent> removing action 1, 54 to First Draft
  763. # [19:00] <oedipus> rrsagent, drop action 2
  764. # [19:00] <RRSAgent> removing action 2, 54 to Second Draft
  765. # [19:00] <oedipus> rrsagent, drop action 3
  766. # [19:00] <RRSAgent> removing action 3, 54 to Third Draft
  767. # [19:01] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  768. # [19:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  769. # [19:01] * oedipus thanks, chris
  770. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> Lachy: Let your soul stand cool and composed before a million universes
  771. # [19:02] <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
  772. # [19:02] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
  773. # [19:02] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
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  775. # [19:03] <Lachy> MikeSmith, what?
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  800. # [22:01] <anne> Julian, or maybe it was a flaw of XSLT to try to deal with HTML :)
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  802. # [22:28] * Quits: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251) (Quit: smedero)
  803. # [22:29] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.214.167) (Quit: dsinger)
  804. # [23:12] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  805. # [23:12] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.185.239.97) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  806. # [23:22] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.226.143.3) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.1a2pre/20080827031643])
  807. # Session Close: Fri Aug 29 00:00:01 2008

The end :)