/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-01-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 15 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  6. # [01:11] * Topic is 'HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ ; This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  7. # [01:11] * Set by DanC on Thu Jan 08 18:01:34
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  12. # [03:11] * Set by DanC on Thu Jan 08 18:01:34
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  24. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2009/01/post31_plans.html
  25. # [05:52] <pimpbot> Title: Well, I'm Back: Post-3.1 Plans (at weblogs.mozillazine.org)
  26. # [05:53] <MikeSmith> "Brian Birtles and Daniel Holbert have massively cleaned up and simplified the SMIL patch so that it's ready for landing. This is just the basic SMIL infrastructure --- considerably more work is required to implement all the features of SVG Animation --- but it's a great base to build on."
  27. # [05:54] <heycam> yum
  28. # [05:57] <shepazu> yay!
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  30. # [06:04] <shepazu> MikeSmith: you saw this? http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20090114-nokia-qt-lgpl-switch-huge-win-for-cross-platform-development.html
  31. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> yep
  32. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> they're also making read access to their source repository public
  33. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> and (I think) putting into place some mechanism for enabling chosen non-Trolltech/Nokia committers
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  35. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> similar to WebKit project
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  37. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> shepazu: also, Qt 4.5 ships with the Qt WebKit port as an integrated component
  38. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> so I'd imagine the adoption of LPGL for Qt could mean that WebKit will show up a few more places than it has so far
  39. # [06:15] <shepazu> sweet, MikeSmith
  40. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know I'm sweet.
  41. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> sweet like sorghum molasses
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  43. # [06:20] <shepazu> 3 moles are climbing out of a mole-hole during a picnic... top mole says, I smell honey ... middle mole says, I smell maple syrup... bottom mole says, I only smell molasses
  44. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> shepazu: I think that joke should be title "Missouri Wisdom"
  45. # [06:25] <shepazu> MikeSmith: well, I heard it from a guy from Mississippi, just recently
  46. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> same thing
  47. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> It's all one big happy extended family down there
  48. # [06:26] <shepazu> ok, jetpack... where are you from again?
  49. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> Nishi-Shinjuku
  50. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> right next to Chuo-koen
  51. # [06:27] <shepazu> I thought you were from Ala-bama
  52. # [06:29] <MikeSmith> I lived in Montgomery for 1 year
  53. # [06:29] <MikeSmith> then I lived in Ohio for a while
  54. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> later in Texas
  55. # [06:30] <shepazu> that alabama stink must still be on you, son
  56. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> Texas is actually a separate country, and native Texans allow the rest of the US to consider it a state
  57. # [06:32] <shepazu> don't I wish!
  58. # [06:33] <shepazu> they can have that hick-hole
  59. # [06:33] <shepazu> even austin and san antonio aren't enough to redeem it
  60. # [06:33] <shepazu> I've lived in texas
  61. # [06:34] <shepazu> we should give it back to mexico, as punishment for letting so many immigrants leave their country
  62. # [06:35] <shepazu> although I do like parts of west texas, like palo dura canyon
  63. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> http://cameronmoll.com/archives/2009/01/12_resources_for_html5/
  64. # [06:43] <pimpbot> Title: 12 resources for getting a jump on HTML 5 ~ Authentic Boredom (at cameronmoll.com)
  65. # [06:48] <shepazu> "So far from what I’m learning, the consensus among several of these articles seems to be this: The world isn’t ready for HTML 5 at large just yet, but we can begin preparing for it by using common, semantic selector names"
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  69. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> http://ajaxian.com/archives/chris-wilson-interview-on-tech-luminaries
  70. # [07:28] <pimpbot> Title: Ajaxian Chris Wilson interview on Tech Luminaries (at ajaxian.com)
  71. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2009/01/changes-for-jaiku-and-farewell-to.html
  72. # [07:31] <pimpbot> Title: Google Code Blog: Changes for Jaiku and Farewell to Dodgeball and Mashup Editor (at google-code-updates.blogspot.com)
  73. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> "we are in the process of porting Jaiku over to Google App Engine. After the migration is complete, we will release the new open source Jaiku Engine project on Google Code under the Apache License... With the open source Jaiku Engine project, organizations, groups and individuals will be able to roll-their-own microblogging services and deploy them on Google App Engine. The new Jaiku Engine will include support for OAuth"
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  84. # [10:51] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6438] New: Error in step 9.4 of the internal algorithm for scanning and assigning header cells" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0020.html> ** "[Bug 6437] New: document.location should update when the browsing context is navigated without the Document changing" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0019.html>
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  109. # [13:47] <pimpbot> planet: Using WAI ARIA Landmark Roles <http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=106>
  110. # [13:53] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6440] New: To which elements applies the formatBlock command?" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0022.html> ** "[Bug 6439] New: should stringify href (like )" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0021.html>
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  112. # [14:23] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6440] To which elements applies the formatBlock command?" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0023.html>
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  116. # [14:53] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6439] should stringify href (like )" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0024.html>
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  121. # [15:28] <anne> that comment clearly missed the point
  122. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> anne: which comment?
  123. # [15:39] <anne> in bug 6439
  124. # [15:42] <takkaria> gotta love public bug systems :)
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  132. # [16:59] <Julian> zakim, code?
  133. # [17:00] <anne> the bot is not here
  134. # [17:00] <anne> and it's an hour early
  135. # [17:00] <Julian> is it?
  136. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> yep
  137. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> trackbot, list
  138. # [17:00] <trackbot> Sorry, MikeSmith, I don't understand 'trackbot, list'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  139. # [17:01] <pimpbot> Title: IRC Trackbot (at www.w3.org)
  140. # [17:01] <Julian> oh, it is. sorry.
  141. # [17:01] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  142. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> Zakim, list
  143. # [17:01] <Zakim> I see Math_IG()10:00AM, W3C_(W3F_TF)8:00AM, VB_VBWG()10:00AM, WAI_Team()10:45AM active
  144. # [17:01] <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are Style_XSL FO()10:00AM, WS_WSRA()11:00AM, Team_Global(review)8:00AM, Team_Comm()11:00AM, GA_SVGIG()11:00AM, XML_PMWG()11:00AM, SW_RIF(F2F12)11:00AM,
  145. # [17:01] <Zakim> ... IA_WebApps(Widgets)10:00AM, GA_WebCGM()11:00AM, INC_EMOXG()10:00AM, SW_HCLS()11:00AM, SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM
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  154. # [17:29] <anne> Lachy, will you dial in? I haven't been able to fix Skype
  155. # [17:29] <anne> (I haven't put much effort into it yet, either, tbh)
  156. # [17:34] <Lachy> is there a telcon on tonight?
  157. # [17:34] <anne> yes, 30m
  158. # [17:34] <Lachy> ok. I suppose I can call in
  159. # [17:36] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG telcon 15 Jan 16:00Z http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0001.html ; This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  160. # [17:37] <DanC> close ACTION-92
  161. # [17:37] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-92.
  162. # [17:37] <trackbot> ACTION-92 Ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG closed
  163. # [17:38] <DanC> ACTION-92: dup of ACTION-90
  164. # [17:38] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-92.
  165. # [17:38] <trackbot> ACTION-92 Ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG notes added
  166. # [17:39] <DanC> action-90: Masinter 14 Jan http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0002.html
  167. # [17:39] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-90.
  168. # [17:39] <trackbot> ACTION-90 Ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG notes added
  169. # [17:39] <pimpbot> Title: Action 90 & 92: Ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG - due 2009-01-15 - open from Larry Masinter on 2009-01-14 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from January to March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  170. # [17:40] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  171. # [17:41] <DanC> action-91: Ruby 8 Jan http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0063.html
  172. # [17:41] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-91.
  173. # [17:41] <trackbot> ACTION-91 Propose 'legacy-compat' and report on feedback notes added
  174. # [17:41] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-54: doctype-legacy-compat from Sam Ruby on 2009-01-08 (public-html@w3.org from January 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  175. # [17:41] <jgraham> Isn't the meeting at 17:00Z or am I confused about timezones?
  176. # [17:42] <DanC> agenda says 16:00Z ... checking the bridge reservation system...
  177. # [17:42] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG telcon 15 Jan 17:00Z http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0001.html ; This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  178. # [17:42] <DanC> 17:00 per http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_2715
  179. # [17:43] <anne> jgraham, welcome to Linköping ;)
  180. # [17:43] <DanC> "12noon Boston time." -- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/#telcon
  181. # [17:43] <pimpbot> Title: W3C HTML Working Group (at www.w3.org)
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  183. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> action-75?
  184. # [17:47] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-75
  185. # [17:47] <trackbot> ACTION-75 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion -- due 2009-02-19 -- OPEN
  186. # [17:47] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75
  187. # [17:47] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-75 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  188. # [17:49] * Quits: jwatt (roslea@83.87.4.17) (Ping timeout)
  189. # [17:51] <DanC> wanna give a new ETA on action-87? (semantics-tables)
  190. # [17:52] <DanC> action-29 due 2009-09-30
  191. # [17:52] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-29.
  192. # [17:52] <trackbot> ACTION-29 Follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring due date now 2009-09-30
  193. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> trackbot, comment action-89 plan is to spec Origin header as an IETF Internet Draft, with Adam Barth as editor
  194. # [17:52] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-89.
  195. # [17:52] <trackbot> ACTION-89 Make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor notes added
  196. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> trackbot, close action-89
  197. # [17:53] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-89.
  198. # [17:53] <trackbot> ACTION-89 Make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor closed
  199. # [17:54] <DanC> hmm... maybe mark 89 pending review rather than closed, so we can talk about who takes the ball next on ISSUE-63 origin-req-scope?
  200. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> trackbot, comment action-87 Hixie responded; see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/thread.html#msg175
  201. # [17:55] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-87.
  202. # [17:55] <trackbot> ACTION-87 Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages notes added
  203. # [17:55] <pimpbot> Title: public-html@w3.org from December 2008: by thread (at lists.w3.org)
  204. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> DanC: yep
  205. # [17:56] <DanC> cool. marked 63 open while I'm at it
  206. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> action-89?
  207. # [17:56] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-89
  208. # [17:56] <trackbot> ACTION-89 -- Michael(tm) Smith to make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor -- due 2008-12-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  209. # [17:56] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/89
  210. # [17:56] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-89 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  211. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> action-87?
  212. # [17:56] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-87
  213. # [17:56] <trackbot> ACTION-87 -- Michael(tm) Smith to ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages -- due 2008-12-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  214. # [17:56] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/87
  215. # [17:56] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-87 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  216. # [17:57] <DanC> ACTION-87 due 20 Dec 2009
  217. # [17:57] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-87.
  218. # [17:57] <trackbot> ACTION-87 Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages due date now 20 Dec 2009
  219. # [17:57] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@62.77.173.27)
  220. # [17:57] <DanC> (date to match hixie's msg, for agenda sorting)
  221. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  222. # [17:58] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  223. # [17:58] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  224. # [17:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  225. # [17:58] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  226. # [17:58] <Zakim> "HTML" matches HTML_WG()12:00PM, and Team_(html)16:00Z, trackbot
  227. # [17:58] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  228. # [17:58] <trackbot> Date: 15 January 2009
  229. # [17:58] <anne> DanC, hasn't Hixie done that already?
  230. # [17:59] <DanC> yup
  231. # [17:59] <DanC> action-89 due 6 Jan 2009
  232. # [17:59] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-89.
  233. # [17:59] <trackbot> ACTION-89 Make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor due date now 6 Jan 2009
  234. # [17:59] <DanC> (that's when the plan was figured out, I think)
  235. # [18:00] <Joshue> zakim, code?
  236. # [18:00] <Zakim> sorry, Joshue, I don't know what conference this is
  237. # [18:00] <anne> Zakim, this is html
  238. # [18:00] <Zakim> ok, anne; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
  239. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> Zakim, this will be HTML
  240. # [18:00] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  241. # [18:01] <Zakim> - +049251280aaaa
  242. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  243. # [18:01] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  244. # [18:01] <Zakim> -??P6
  245. # [18:01] <rubys> zakim, who is on the phone?
  246. # [18:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, [Microsoft]
  247. # [18:01] <DanC> ACTION-87 due 20 Dec 2008
  248. # [18:01] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-87.
  249. # [18:01] <trackbot> ACTION-87 Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages due date now 20 Dec 2008
  250. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +049251280aabb
  251. # [18:01] <Julian> Zakim, +049251280aaaa is me
  252. # [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, Julian, I do not recognize a party named '+049251280aaaa'
  253. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  254. # [18:02] * Lachy will call in shortly
  255. # [18:02] <Julian> Zakim, +049251280aabb is me
  256. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  257. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P14
  258. # [18:02] <dsinger> zakim, [Apple] has dsinger
  259. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  260. # [18:02] <Joshue> zaki, ??P14 is Joshue
  261. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Matt_May
  262. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P18
  263. # [18:02] <Joshue> zakim, ??P14 is Joshue
  264. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
  265. # [18:02] <DanC> (ideally, we would have updated those actions and sent out the contents of http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda at T-24hrs, but hey... we'll get there)
  266. # [18:02] <hsivonen> Zakim, ??P18 is me
  267. # [18:02] <Zakim> +hsivonen; got it
  268. # [18:02] <pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  269. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
  270. # [18:02] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  271. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Mike
  272. # [18:02] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  273. # [18:02] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  274. # [18:02] <Zakim> +DanC
  275. # [18:03] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.74)
  276. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P21
  277. # [18:03] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  278. # [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, [Microsoft], Julian, [Apple], Joshue, Matt_May, hsivonen, Mike, DanC, ??P21
  279. # [18:03] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  280. # [18:03] <Lachy> Zakim, I am P21
  281. # [18:03] <Zakim> sorry, Lachy, I do not see a party named 'P21'
  282. # [18:03] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P21
  283. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  284. # [18:03] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is me
  285. # [18:03] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  286. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aacc
  287. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.519.538.aadd
  288. # [18:03] <DanC> Topic: Convene, take roll, review agenda
  289. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  290. # [18:03] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  291. # [18:03] <Zakim> -Mike
  292. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  293. # [18:03] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  294. # [18:04] * DanC Zakim, aadd is MurrayM
  295. # [18:04] * Zakim +MurrayM; got it
  296. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Mike
  297. # [18:04] * DanC Zakim, aacc is LarryM
  298. # [18:04] * Zakim +LarryM; got it
  299. # [18:04] * Joins: masinter (user@192.150.10.200)
  300. # [18:04] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who is on the phone?
  301. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, ChrisWilson, Julian, [Apple], Joshue, Matt_May, hsivonen, DanC, Lachy, MurrayM, LarryM, Mike
  302. # [18:04] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  303. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  304. # [18:04] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  305. # [18:04] <Zakim> -Mike
  306. # [18:04] <ChrisWilson> agenda?
  307. # [18:05] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
  308. # [18:05] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who's making noise?
  309. # [18:05] <DanC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0001.html
  310. # [18:05] <pimpbot> Title: Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2008-11-20 from Sam Ruby on 2009-01-13 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from January to March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  311. # [18:05] <DanC> and this is sorted: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  312. # [18:05] <pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  313. # [18:05] <Zakim> ChrisWilson, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisWilson (5%), Joshue (15%), LarryM (9%), DanC (29%)
  314. # [18:05] <Joshue> zakim, mute me
  315. # [18:05] <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
  316. # [18:05] * Joshue I was typing aggressively
  317. # [18:06] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who's here?
  318. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, ChrisWilson, Julian, [Apple], Joshue (muted), Matt_May, hsivonen, DanC, Lachy, MurrayM, LarryM
  319. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  320. # [18:06] * DanC missed sam joining...
  321. # [18:06] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  322. # [18:06] <Zakim> On IRC I see masinter, ChrisWilson, dsinger, Joshue, MikeSmith, rubys, gavin_, Lachy, Zakim, Sander, laplink, aaronlev, tlr, MichaelC, aroben, Julian, myakura, maddiin, ROBOd,
  323. # [18:06] * DanC Zakim, is sam here?
  324. # [18:06] <Zakim> ... darobin, heycam, sryo, krijnh, gsnedders, anne, timelyx, tH, shepazu, deltab, hober, Shunsuke, Dashiva, matt, Hixie, DanC, gavin, drry, xover, trackbot, inimino, hsivonen,
  325. # [18:06] <Zakim> ... wilhelm, jmb, Philip, RRSAgent, Yudai, phenny, pimpbot, takkaria, jgraham
  326. # [18:06] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  327. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Mike
  328. # [18:06] * Zakim probably, DanC; Sam arrived 6 minutes ago
  329. # [18:06] <rubys> yI'm here: first on the list... :-)
  330. # [18:07] <rubys> ChrisWilson: let's talk about the heartbeat requirement first
  331. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> q/
  332. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> q?
  333. # [18:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  334. # [18:07] <rubys> ChrisWilson: we need to get publication notes detailing changes from the last draft
  335. # [18:07] <rubys> ChrisWilson: any objections?
  336. # [18:07] <anne> Is it realistic to get a detailed changelog?
  337. # [18:07] <rubys> rubys: unknown: do we need a review first?
  338. # [18:08] <Joshue> I would like to see the poll on @summary go ahead before the next iternation of the spec or the draft is published.
  339. # [18:08] * anne will update html5-diff when we decide to publish but doesn't expect it to contain a detailed changelog
  340. # [18:08] <Julian> s/rubys/LarryM/
  341. # [18:08] <Julian> s/unknown/LarryM/
  342. # [18:08] <rubys> ChirsWilson: no, it this isn't a new document
  343. # [18:08] <DanC> an update of html4-diff is much appreciated; i think the level of detail you typically come up with is fine, anne
  344. # [18:09] <rubys> LarryM: if you do an action with no significance, why do the action?
  345. # [18:09] <rubys> DanC: there is a lot of new forms material...
  346. # [18:09] * Parts: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  347. # [18:09] * shepazu Zakim, call shepazu
  348. # [18:09] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  349. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  350. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> Anne, how detailed are you considering pubnotes to be? I wasn't thinking checkin-by-checkin changelog; but the overview, e.g. webforms, would be important imop
  351. # [18:09] <Joshue> I don't like the fact that @summary has been dropped. This was a unilateral decision and I think the wider group should consulted. Without this process @summary wioll have little to no chance of being reinstated.
  352. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> s/imop/imo
  353. # [18:09] <rubys> LarryM: I don't have any more comments...
  354. # [18:09] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  355. # [18:10] * DanC wonders if larry is on IRC...
  356. # [18:10] <masinter> yes
  357. # [18:10] <DanC> Larry, at one point I tried to be sure every section had been reviewed by 2+ HTML WG reviewers: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews
  358. # [18:10] <ChrisWilson> Josh, is that related to current topic or a new topic?
  359. # [18:10] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/SpecReviews - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  360. # [18:10] <Joshue> zaki, unmute me
  361. # [18:10] <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
  362. # [18:10] <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
  363. # [18:11] <Lachy> which attribute is being discussed?
  364. # [18:11] <hsivonen> Lachy, summary
  365. # [18:11] <rubys> Joshue: I think it important to resolve the summary issue before the next heartbeat document
  366. # [18:11] <Lachy> summary was never in the spec
  367. # [18:11] <rubys> DanC: I don't believe that summary was dropped since the last draft
  368. # [18:11] <anne> ChrisWilson, http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/#changelog
  369. # [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 differences from HTML 4 (at www.w3.org)
  370. # [18:11] <DanC> issue-32?
  371. # [18:11] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-32
  372. # [18:11] <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- how to provide a summary of a table, e.g. for unsighted navigation? -- OPEN
  373. # [18:11] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  374. # [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-32 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  375. # [18:12] <anne> ChrisWilson, that's about as much as I can commit to
  376. # [18:12] <rubys> DanC: does issue 32 need to be resolved before the next publication?
  377. # [18:12] <hsivonen> Joshue, why should issue 32 block the heartbeat when none of the other open issues are blocking?
  378. # [18:12] <rubys> DanC: I symphatize for the issue, but don't believe that it need to be solved before publication
  379. # [18:13] <rubys> ChirsW: I would like to move forward towards publishing, Dan, do we need a poll?
  380. # [18:13] <Joshue> Just giving my two cents.
  381. # [18:13] <rubys> DanC: no
  382. # [18:13] <rubys> ChrisW: I will send a mail out
  383. # [18:13] <rubys> zakim, mute Joshue
  384. # [18:13] <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
  385. # [18:13] <masinter> I would like the opportunity to review the draft in detail, and want to make sure that agreeing to publishing the working draft doesn't preclude raising issues
  386. # [18:14] <ChrisWilson> action ChrisWilson send mail to WG saying we will issue new WD due tomorrow
  387. # [18:14] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  388. # [18:14] <trackbot> Created ACTION-95 - Send mail to WG saying we will issue new WD due tomorrow [on Chris Wilson - due 2009-01-22].
  389. # [18:14] <DanC> issue: HTML 5 spec update after 10 June 2008
  390. # [18:14] * trackbot noticed an ISSUE. Trying to create it.
  391. # [18:14] <trackbot> Created ISSUE-65 - HTML 5 spec update after 10 June 2008 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/65/edit .
  392. # [18:14] <anne> masinter, it never does
  393. # [18:14] <anne> masinter, publishing is just sending out a note for wider review
  394. # [18:14] <masinter> thanks, yes
  395. # [18:14] <rubys> ChrisW: publishing the working draft does not preclude raising issues
  396. # [18:15] <rubys> ChrisW: I want to do pending review actions first
  397. # [18:16] <rubys> what list are we all looking at?
  398. # [18:16] * DanC suggests the scribe do: Topic: ISSUE-20 (table-headers): Improvements to the table-headers algorithm in the HTML 5 spec
  399. # [18:16] <ChrisWilson> action-87?
  400. # [18:16] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-87
  401. # [18:16] <trackbot> ACTION-87 -- Michael(tm) Smith to ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages -- due 2008-12-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  402. # [18:16] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/87
  403. # [18:16] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-87 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  404. # [18:16] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-20 (table-headers): Improvements to the table-headers algorithm in the HTML 5 spec
  405. # [18:16] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  406. # [18:17] <Joshue> regarding @summary please note the request from the PF to keep the attribute http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0213.html
  407. # [18:17] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Request for PFWG WAI review of summary for tabular data from Al Gilman on 2008-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  408. # [18:18] <anne> rubys, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda maybe?
  409. # [18:18] <pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  410. # [18:18] <hsivonen> q+
  411. # [18:18] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  412. # [18:18] <DanC> so http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H43.html is still non-conforming?
  413. # [18:18] <rubys> scribe is confused, issue-20 has an action which is due 2009-01-30
  414. # [18:18] <pimpbot> Title: H43: Using id and headers attributes to associate data cells with header cells in data tables | Techniques for WCAG 2.0 (at www.w3.org)
  415. # [18:18] <ChrisWilson> ack hsivonen
  416. # [18:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  417. # [18:19] <gsnedders> DanC: yes
  418. # [18:19] <rubys> DanC: would the validator flag the example?
  419. # [18:19] <rubys> Hsivonen: no
  420. # [18:20] <rubys> DanC: great!
  421. # [18:21] <DanC> "HTML 5 draft allows @headers on td but not on th."
  422. # [18:21] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
  423. # [18:21] <DanC> is th/@headers allowed now?
  424. # [18:21] <rubys> Chris: I'll look into this, but I think we can close it
  425. # [18:21] <anne> DanC, yes
  426. # [18:21] <DanC> spiffy.
  427. # [18:21] <anne> DanC, see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tabular-data.html#the-th-element
  428. # [18:21] <rubys> (many): yes
  429. # [18:21] <pimpbot> Title: 4.9 Tabular data HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  430. # [18:21] <masinter> did Matt_May liaison get on agenda?
  431. # [18:22] <rubys> ChrisWilson: status of 87 is now closed, I'd like to leave 72 open to remind me to review it...
  432. # [18:22] * Joins: cyns (836b004a@128.30.52.43)
  433. # [18:22] <Zakim> + +1.425.467.aaee
  434. # [18:22] <smedero> Zakim, +1.425.467.aaee is me
  435. # [18:22] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  436. # [18:23] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-63 (origin-req-scope): Origin header: in scope? required for this release?
  437. # [18:23] <ChrisWilson> action-89?
  438. # [18:23] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-89
  439. # [18:23] <trackbot> ACTION-89 -- Michael(tm) Smith to make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor -- due 2009-01-06 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  440. # [18:23] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/89
  441. # [18:23] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-89 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  442. # [18:24] <rubys> MikeSmith: consensus is that this doesn't belong in webapps
  443. # [18:24] <DanC> it was in the editors' draft as of http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2524&to=2525
  444. # [18:24] <pimpbot> Title: (X)HTML5 Tracking (at html5.org)
  445. # [18:24] <rubys> MikeSmith: we can close 63
  446. # [18:24] <rubys> DanC: It was (previously) in the draft
  447. # [18:24] <masinter> action is to bring proposal to IETF?
  448. # [18:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  449. # [18:24] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - is
  450. # [18:24] <rubys> MikeSmith: it still is, the plan is to move it out
  451. # [18:24] <anne> MikeSmith, really, did we discuss that? The Origin header is currently defined in a WebApps WG draft, after all...
  452. # [18:24] <rubys> DanC: I wouldn't mid a recorded decision that we aren't doing it
  453. # [18:25] <Zakim> -Mike
  454. # [18:25] <rubys> ChrisW: Is there something we need to do?
  455. # [18:25] <rubys> DanC: the consensus in the IETF liason call is that this belongs in the IETF
  456. # [18:26] <rubys> ChrisW: we can close this item
  457. # [18:26] <masinter> liaison need to track?
  458. # [18:26] <rubys> DanC: I'd like a decision!
  459. # [18:26] <rubys> ChrisW: I'll do that
  460. # [18:26] * Joins: billyjackass (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  461. # [18:26] <rubys> Larry: do we need to track this?
  462. # [18:26] <rubys> DanC: I'm content that this is being tracked
  463. # [18:26] <rubys> ChrisW: I propose closing the issue and action
  464. # [18:27] <rubys> DanC: I think it has had enough attention
  465. # [18:27] <masinter> closing it sounds good to me
  466. # [18:27] <billyjackass> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
  467. # [18:27] <Zakim> ok, billyjackass; the call is being made
  468. # [18:27] <Zakim> +Mike
  469. # [18:27] <rubys> DanC: Sam?
  470. # [18:27] <rubys> Sam: should there be an action to remove it from the spec?
  471. # [18:28] <rubys> Doug: would it be prudent to leave it in the spec pending some action?
  472. # [18:28] <rubys> Larry: I think it would be imprudent to keep it in the spec...
  473. # [18:28] <rubys> Doug: I'm fine either way..
  474. # [18:28] * hsivonen I fixed th@headers in Validator.nu
  475. # [18:28] <rubys> larry: If we are deferring to the IETF, we are saying we aren't doing it.
  476. # [18:28] <DanC> (rubys, we've experimented with hixie carrying tracker actions, and the current status is that he doesn't; somebody else takes an action to work with hixie...)
  477. # [18:28] * ChrisWilson thanks henri
  478. # [18:29] <rubys> MikeSmith: my action is done
  479. # [18:29] <Julian> q+
  480. # [18:29] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  481. # [18:29] <rubys> ChrisW: Is this actually referenced in the HTML spec?
  482. # [18:29] <ChrisWilson> ack Julian
  483. # [18:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  484. # [18:29] <rubys> DanC: it was
  485. # [18:30] <rubys> Julian: the spec currently has this text
  486. # [18:30] <DanC> Zakim, pick a victim
  487. # [18:30] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose hsivonen
  488. # [18:30] <Julian> it's in http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#origin
  489. # [18:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
  490. # [18:30] <rubys> ChrisW: We need an action
  491. # [18:30] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  492. # [18:30] <ChrisWilson> action HSivonen to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec
  493. # [18:30] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  494. # [18:30] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - HSivonen
  495. # [18:30] <rubys> Henri: I can take this action
  496. # [18:31] <rubys> topic: ISSUE-31 (missing-alt): What to do when a reasonable text equivalent is unknown/unavailable?
  497. # [18:31] * ChrisWilson and welcome, Matt
  498. # [18:31] <anne> I'm not sure I agree this is the right course of action. It only affects HTML forms... Didn't we establish this last time this was discussed?
  499. # [18:31] <rubys> Matt: what's the goal here?
  500. # [18:32] <rubys> DanC: I just want the overall plan for having it fixed in general, no need to worry about trying to get it fixed by the next draft
  501. # [18:32] <DanC> (added hsivonen to the issue tracking task force... stand by while I juggle a bit more...)
  502. # [18:32] <anne> Also, the WebApps WG are the ones currently defining the Origin header...
  503. # [18:32] <rubys> Matt: I can come back next week with status
  504. # [18:32] <hsivonen> q+
  505. # [18:32] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  506. # [18:32] <DanC> action: Dan (@@hsivonen) to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec
  507. # [18:32] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  508. # [18:32] * RRSAgent records action 13
  509. # [18:32] <trackbot> Created ACTION-96 - (@@hsivonen) to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec [on Dan Connolly - due 2009-01-22].
  510. # [18:32] <ChrisWilson> ack hsivonen
  511. # [18:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  512. # [18:32] <ChrisWilson> whoops, didn't mean to hit enter yet.
  513. # [18:32] <hsivonen> q+
  514. # [18:32] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  515. # [18:32] <ChrisWilson> just a sec, Henri
  516. # [18:32] <ChrisWilson> thx
  517. # [18:33] * ChrisWilson apparent one cup of coffee isn't enough - or I need to switch to pure decaf.
  518. # [18:33] <DanC> action-96?
  519. # [18:33] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-96
  520. # [18:33] <trackbot> ACTION-96 -- Henri Sivonen to to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec -- due 2009-01-22 -- OPEN
  521. # [18:33] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/96
  522. # [18:33] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-96 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  523. # [18:33] <rubys> Matt: this is a topic I don't expect the HTML spec to solve...
  524. # [18:33] <DanC> feel free to give a different ETA, hsivonen
  525. # [18:33] <DanC> a la: action-96 due 15 Feb 2009
  526. # [18:34] <Joshue> Just for the record http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueAltAttribute
  527. # [18:34] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueAltAttribute - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  528. # [18:34] <DanC> (taking a peek at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueAltAttribute to see how it does with NPOV...)
  529. # [18:34] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueAltAttribute - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  530. # [18:34] <ChrisWilson> ack hsivonen
  531. # [18:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  532. # [18:35] <smedero> This was the last editor's summary on @alt: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0759.html
  533. # [18:35] <pimpbot> Title: The alt="" attribute from Ian Hickson on 2008-08-26 (public-html@w3.org from August 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  534. # [18:35] <rubys> Matt: the current draft doesn't close the door on optional alts, and I'm unsure how to proceed from here.
  535. # [18:35] <DanC> (re HTML/IssueAltAttribute "latest published" is at risk of going stale ...)
  536. # [18:35] <cyns> q+
  537. # [18:35] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
  538. # [18:35] <rubys> hsivonon: what should a piece of software do if a user is uncooperative? what are the sequences of bytes that a validator must flag as nonforming?
  539. # [18:36] <shepazu> q+
  540. # [18:36] * Zakim sees cyns, shepazu on the speaker queue
  541. # [18:37] <Joshue> @Dan, yeah it probably needs updating
  542. # [18:37] <pimpbot> Joshue: Huh?
  543. # [18:37] <rubys> hsivonen: my position is that a data format should allow a signal for an authoring tool to indicate that a user did not provide the data, and that should be conforming
  544. # [18:37] <DanC> Josue, so far, I don't see any critical NPOV problems in that wiki summary, though; we seem to be getting better at using the wiki
  545. # [18:38] <DanC> (it would be nifty if the arguments hsivonen and matt are talking about were easy to find in that wiki summary)
  546. # [18:38] <Joshue> Dan, yeah, it is a pretty good overview of these myriad issues and related offshoots.
  547. # [18:38] <billyjackass> trackbot, comment issue-63 see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081211#l-45 : Hixie: "splitting off the protocol part of websocket, the content-sniffing section, the uri section, and a brief definition of the Origin header, and submitting them as four tentative IDs"
  548. # [18:38] <trackbot> Sorry, billyjackass, I don't understand 'trackbot, comment issue-63 see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081211#l-45 : Hixie: "splitting off the protocol part of websocket, the content-sniffing section, the uri section, and a brief definition of the Origin header, and submitting them as four tentative IDs"'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  549. # [18:38] <ChrisWilson> ack cyns
  550. # [18:38] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
  551. # [18:38] <pimpbot> Title: IRC logs: freenode / #whatwg / 20081211 (at krijnhoetmer.nl)
  552. # [18:38] <pimpbot> Title: IRC logs: freenode / #whatwg / 20081211 (at krijnhoetmer.nl)
  553. # [18:39] * Zakim hears Matt_May's hand up
  554. # [18:39] * Zakim sees shepazu, Matt_May on the speaker queue
  555. # [18:39] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
  556. # [18:39] <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
  557. # [18:39] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-html-wg-irc#T17-37-41
  558. # [18:39] <rubys> cynthia: what worked well in the past is the alt attribute is required, but an empty string is ok, why does that need to change?
  559. # [18:39] <dsinger> the discussion was that the empty string then becomes ambiguous: it's also used to say that an image is, for example, purely decorative
  560. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
  561. # [18:40] <hsivonen> q+
  562. # [18:40] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  563. # [18:40] * Zakim sees shepazu, Matt_May, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  564. # [18:40] <Zakim> +Mike.a
  565. # [18:40] <dsinger> the UA cannot then tell the difference betwen "alt desirable but unavalable" and "alt wasn't needed"
  566. # [18:40] <rubys> cynthia: I agree with Matt that descriptions as to what is a valid alt tag belongs in WAI...
  567. # [18:40] <ChrisWilson> ack shepazu
  568. # [18:40] * Zakim sees Matt_May, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  569. # [18:41] <anne> cyns, why? alt="" is not just an accessibility technique
  570. # [18:41] <anne> cyns, it's important for e.g. text browsers as well
  571. # [18:41] * Quits: darobin (robinb@82.233.247.234) (Ping timeout)
  572. # [18:41] <rubys> Doug: henry? would you agree that if all you are validating is HTML, then you shouldn't flag a missing HTML, but a validator that also also was aware of WCAG would validate more?
  573. # [18:42] <gsnedders> s/henry/Henri/
  574. # [18:42] <rubys> hsivonen: yes
  575. # [18:42] <cyns> slight modification of summary of my statement: what is *good* or *appropriate* alt in a scenario is not a language issue, but an authoring issue. should not be in the language spec.
  576. # [18:42] <rubys> hsivonen: it may be a different class of message
  577. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> trackbot, comment action-96 see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081211#l-45 : Hixie: "splitting off the protocol part of websocket, the content-sniffing section, the uri section, and a brief definition of the Origin header, and submitting them as four tentative IDs"
  578. # [18:43] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-96.
  579. # [18:43] <trackbot> ACTION-96 to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec notes added
  580. # [18:43] <pimpbot> Title: IRC logs: freenode / #whatwg / 20081211 (at krijnhoetmer.nl)
  581. # [18:43] <anne> cyns, the language should tell authors how to write it, no?
  582. # [18:43] <anne> cyns, the language spec...
  583. # [18:43] <rubys> doug: fine, this may be a communication issue; not requiring it in the language doesn't mean that it can't be flagged
  584. # [18:43] <rubys> hsivonen: right
  585. # [18:43] <ChrisWilson> ack Matt
  586. # [18:43] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  587. # [18:43] <cyns> anne, the language should tell the author what is valid, but not necessarily what content is equivalent.
  588. # [18:44] <takkaria> I'm not sure what quite what use defining a language is if you don't define how to use it in certain situations
  589. # [18:44] <rubys> matt: DreamWeaver gives you options, but if you don't make a decision, no alt tag is generated, and I consider that a "pass"
  590. # [18:45] <jgraham> FWIW I guess not putting information about alt usage in HTML 5 will jsut mean fewer authors are exposed to that information
  591. # [18:45] <rubys> matt: not letting you save non-conforming documents is a non-starter in the marketplace
  592. # [18:45] <masinter> q+
  593. # [18:45] * Zakim sees hsivonen, masinter on the speaker queue
  594. # [18:45] <anne> cyns, why not? the author needs to know how to write the language properly
  595. # [18:46] <masinter> this is a case where defining what the language *means* independently of how authors should author and browsers should interpret is a good idea
  596. # [18:46] <anne> cyns, the language specification should tell the author how to properly include an image, imo
  597. # [18:46] <shepazu> q+
  598. # [18:46] * Zakim sees hsivonen, masinter, shepazu on the speaker queue
  599. # [18:46] <anne> masinter, I don't really see why that matters
  600. # [18:46] <shepazu> q-
  601. # [18:46] * Zakim sees hsivonen, masinter on the speaker queue
  602. # [18:46] <rubys> matt: having the validators be the gatekeeper has provided significant value in the past
  603. # [18:46] <masinter> alt="" means something different than 'no alt'.
  604. # [18:47] <dsinger> the assumption that HTML generation is coincident with a person who knows what the non-text content is like, is not tenable
  605. # [18:47] <masinter> different requirements on interpreters and generators
  606. # [18:47] <cyns> anne, examples, yes, but not every possible scenario. fine in an authoring guide, but it and WCAG should be single-sourced in that case
  607. # [18:47] <anne> masinter, sure, that's all in the specification
  608. # [18:47] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.14.201)
  609. # [18:47] <ChrisWilson> ack hsivonen
  610. # [18:47] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  611. # [18:47] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.16.160.96) (Quit: Leaving...)
  612. # [18:47] <anne> cyns, but WCAG is for accessibility, doesn't cover e.g. search engines or text browsers
  613. # [18:47] <takkaria> how can you talk about waht a language means independently of how people should understand it?
  614. # [18:48] <DanC> (pointer to relevant part of ATAG docs, anyone?)
  615. # [18:48] <rubys> hsivonen: authoring tools should do what DreamWeaver does, and believe that that ATAC 2.0 should direct tools to do what DW does
  616. # [18:48] <dsinger> not all HTML is made by interactive tools...
  617. # [18:48] <rubys> s/ATAC/ATAG/
  618. # [18:48] <shepazu> so, if the government requires that content for government web content follow WCAG guidelines, then there will be market pressure for an authoring tool to force/encourage authors to add alt text, regardless of whether it is is for HTML or WCAG validity
  619. # [18:49] <masinter> there are different constraints on the content and on the tools for generating content
  620. # [18:49] <rubys> hsivonen: we shouldn't make HTML5 require that some streams that can be generated using ATAG guides be considered non-conforming
  621. # [18:49] * Julian thinks we're just repeating a discussion that has ben going on for months on the mailing list. Does it really make sense to do that here?
  622. # [18:49] <masinter> different constraints on visual display browsers and screen readers
  623. # [18:49] * ChrisWilson suspects this is the case.
  624. # [18:50] <dsinger> I agree with Julian; weare going over old ground that took hours on the mailing list
  625. # [18:50] <Joshue> +1 to Henri, I agree there should not be rubbish values inserted into content just to satisfy a validator
  626. # [18:50] <ChrisWilson> ack hsivonen
  627. # [18:50] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  628. # [18:50] <ChrisWilson> ack masinter
  629. # [18:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  630. # [18:50] <DanC> (julian, if you can point to a succinct summary, then that might save us time, but otherwise, yes, some redundant discussion is natural)
  631. # [18:51] <rubys> masinter: if you try to do everything in one specification, it will be hard to read and contain a lot of information that is irrelevant to many classes of users.
  632. # [18:51] * DanC is particularly interested to hear from folks who aren't satisfied with the current editor's draft
  633. # [18:52] * rubys seconds Dan's sentiment... can we get people to propose specific spec wording?
  634. # [18:52] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  635. # [18:52] <dsinger> Dan, I fear that no-one is satisfied (not even the editor)
  636. # [18:52] <rubys> matt: the WAI coordination group is planning on discussing this.
  637. # [18:53] <rubys> matt: I can report back next week on this and on summary
  638. # [18:53] <DanC> dsinger, I don't expect the editor to commit text he's not satisfied with... without an explicit note. is there one?
  639. # [18:53] <rubys> chris: I'll update the status
  640. # [18:53] <Joshue> summary attribute http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  641. # [18:53] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-32 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  642. # [18:53] <rubys> topic: ISSUE-37 (html-svg-mathml): Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html
  643. # [18:53] <ChrisWilson> action-94?
  644. # [18:53] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-94
  645. # [18:53] <trackbot> ACTION-94 -- Doug Schepers to report back on SVG WG's integration proposal re: issue-37 -- due 2009-01-22 -- OPEN
  646. # [18:53] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/94
  647. # [18:53] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-94 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  648. # [18:53] * DanC missed it... who has the ball on missing-alt now?
  649. # [18:54] <masinter> and action 90 and action 92 should both be closed
  650. # [18:54] <rubys> @DanC: matt
  651. # [18:54] <pimpbot> rubys: Huh?
  652. # [18:54] <DanC> close action-90
  653. # [18:54] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-90.
  654. # [18:54] <trackbot> ACTION-90 Ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG closed
  655. # [18:54] * ChrisWilson Matt does, to come back next week after the wai coord group.
  656. # [18:54] <rubys> doug: I've moved the action back to next week
  657. # [18:54] <rubys> topic" ISSUE-54 (doctype-legacy-compat): tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html>
  658. # [18:55] * Joshue gotta go bye
  659. # [18:55] <ChrisWilson> action-91
  660. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Joshue
  661. # [18:55] <rubys> rubys: proposed on the list, awaiting feedback from the editor
  662. # [18:55] <DanC> well, the "report on feedback " part isn't done
  663. # [18:56] <rubys> ChrisW: what's the current status
  664. # [18:56] <rubys> rubys: we have a proposed change, and waiting on the editor to make the change
  665. # [18:57] <rubys> DanC: sam, you've seen all the feedback you think you need to see
  666. # [18:57] <rubys> rubys: yes
  667. # [18:57] * DanC suggests: RESOLVED: to address issue-54 by using 'legacy-compat'
  668. # [18:58] * DanC doesn't mind lachy carrying the ball for a bit
  669. # [18:58] <smedero> q+
  670. # [18:58] * Zakim sees smedero on the speaker queue
  671. # [18:58] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-54 (doctype-legacy-compat): tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html>
  672. # [18:58] <ChrisWilson> ack smedero
  673. # [18:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  674. # [18:58] <rubys> ChrisW: what is limited quirks?
  675. # [18:58] <DanC> (rubys, you were close, but the bot looks for topic: , not topic" )
  676. # [18:59] <DanC> +1 empty string, i.e. <!DOCTYPE html "">
  677. # [18:59] <Julian> +1 as well
  678. # [18:59] <anne> ChrisWilson, limited quirks is a new name for "almost standards mode" (because it's now part of to be standard)
  679. # [18:59] <DanC> +0 legacy-compat
  680. # [18:59] * rubys @Danc: fingers off by one
  681. # [18:59] <Lachy> no, it would by <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "">
  682. # [18:59] * Quits: Joshue (Joshue@62.77.173.27) (Ping timeout)
  683. # [18:59] <ChrisWilson> thanks Lachy, I was going to say that.
  684. # [18:59] <Julian> +1 on empty string, +0 on legacy-compat
  685. # [18:59] <hsivonen> sigh, a moment ago we were so close to declaring consensus on "legacy-compat"
  686. # [18:59] <DanC> sorry, lachy, I'm perhaps going too fast
  687. # [18:59] <ChrisWilson> Henri, no I don't think we were
  688. # [18:59] * anne joins hsivonen
  689. # [19:00] <Lachy> I object to using the empty string version
  690. # [19:00] <hsivonen> I'm +1 on "legacy-compat" and -1 on ""
  691. # [19:00] <rubys> Lachland: does not support "", prefers xstl-compat or legacy-compat
  692. # [19:00] <ChrisWilson> s/Lachland/Lachlan
  693. # [19:00] * takkaria thinks there's some bikeshedding going on here
  694. # [19:00] * Lachy rubys, there's no 'd' in my name
  695. # [19:00] <ChrisWilson> takkaria, I disagree
  696. # [19:00] * gsnedders votes for painting the shed pink, and hides
  697. # [19:01] <rubys> rubys: I've yet to hear anybody argue against legacy-compat
  698. # [19:01] <shepazu> how about "processor-compat"?
  699. # [19:01] <gsnedders> I'm +1 on "legacy-compat" and -1 on "" too
  700. # [19:01] <masinter> is the objection that the word 'legacy' is pejorative?
  701. # [19:01] <Lachy> the only problem with legacy-compat is that it's not entirely clear that it's meant for compat with legacy generator tools, like XSLT, rather than legacy consumers like browsers
  702. # [19:01] <rubys> chriswilson: I'm not happy with legacy-compat, it implies that something is wrong.
  703. # [19:01] * Julian likes legacy-compat better than xslt-compat (because that one is incorrect), but prefers the empty string.
  704. # [19:01] <rubys> DanC: "" is better?
  705. # [19:02] <hsivonen> masinter, the string is pejorative on purpose to make people prefer <!DOCTYPE html>
  706. # [19:02] <Julian> +1 on the reasons ChrisW is giving.
  707. # [19:02] <anne> ChrisWilson, but something is wrong...
  708. # [19:02] * shepazu @Julian: you should say that on the record
  709. # [19:02] <rubys> ChrisW: yes
  710. # [19:02] <rubys> ChrisW: I don't understand the goal of being perjorative on purpose
  711. # [19:02] <masinter> if you want to be perjorative, do it on your blog, not in the spec
  712. # [19:02] <Zakim> -MurrayM
  713. # [19:03] <DanC> Zakim, I hung up
  714. # [19:03] <Zakim> I don't understand 'I hung up', DanC
  715. # [19:03] <DanC> Zakim, drop me
  716. # [19:03] <Zakim> DanC is being disconnected
  717. # [19:03] <Zakim> -DanC
  718. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  719. # [19:03] <masinter> pejorative
  720. # [19:03] <Zakim> -LarryM
  721. # [19:03] <masinter> byeee
  722. # [19:03] <shepazu> s/perjorative/pejorative/
  723. # [19:03] <rubys> ChrisW: requests Sam to reply to the previous thread, and keep the action open.
  724. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Matt_May
  725. # [19:03] <rubys> Sam: OK
  726. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Lachy
  727. # [19:04] <rubys> ChrisW: I move that we adjourn
  728. # [19:04] <rubys> numerous seconds
  729. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Julian
  730. # [19:04] <Zakim> -smedero
  731. # [19:04] <Zakim> -hsivonen
  732. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  733. # [19:04] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  734. # [19:04] <rubys> meeting adjourned...
  735. # [19:04] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  736. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Mike
  737. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Mike.a
  738. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  739. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  740. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Sam
  741. # [19:04] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  742. # [19:04] <Zakim> Attendees were Sam, +049251280aaaa, Julian, dsinger, Matt_May, Joshue, hsivonen, Mike, DanC, Lachy, ChrisWilson, +1.408.536.aacc, +1.519.538.aadd, MurrayM, LarryM, Shepazu,
  743. # [19:04] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], smedero, Mike.a
  744. # [19:05] <smedero> rrsagent, generate minutes
  745. # [19:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
  746. # [19:06] <smedero> rrsagent, make log public
  747. # [19:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, smedero
  748. # [19:07] <smedero> Chair: ChrisWilson
  749. # [19:07] <smedero> rrsagent, generate minutes
  750. # [19:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
  751. # [19:07] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 15 Jan 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  752. # [19:08] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  753. # [19:12] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  754. # [19:25] * Quits: cyns (836b004a@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  755. # [19:27] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  756. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> http://benjamin.smedbergs.us/blog/2009-01-15/there-is-no-invalid-html/
  757. # [19:44] <pimpbot> Title: BSBlog Blog Archive There is No Invalid HTML (at benjamin.smedbergs.us)
  758. # [19:53] <anne> my replies are in moderation
  759. # [19:54] * Joins: arne (aj3@84.142.121.237)
  760. # [19:54] <anne> does anyone have pointers to where the alt attribute was first proposed?
  761. # [19:55] * anne is aware of the HTML 2.0 spec; is looking for an e-mail or some such
  762. # [20:03] <smedero> one of the early messages I've found: http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q3/0985.html
  763. # [20:03] <pimpbot> Title: WWW-Talk Jul-Sep 1993: ALT tag used in IMG (at www.krsaborio.net)
  764. # [20:05] <anne> ooh
  765. # [20:05] <smedero> there's also this
  766. # [20:05] <smedero> http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q3/0985.html
  767. # [20:05] <pimpbot> Title: WWW-Talk Jul-Sep 1993: ALT tag used in IMG (at www.krsaborio.net)
  768. # [20:05] <smedero> which is interesting...
  769. # [20:06] <smedero> it is a bit harder to find an email about it earlier archives though
  770. # [20:07] <anne> that's the same e-mail
  771. # [20:07] <anne> but yeah, it suggests alt was never introduced for accessibility but for text browsers, just like I thought
  772. # [20:07] <smedero> bah
  773. # [20:07] <anne> not that it matters much
  774. # [20:08] <smedero> http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q4/0218.html
  775. # [20:08] <pimpbot> Title: WWW-Talk Oct-Dec 1993: ALT attribute & Conformance levels (at www.krsaborio.net)
  776. # [20:08] <smedero> sorry about that
  777. # [20:09] <smedero> i don't believe @alt came up in the original <img> proposal... but someone is welcome to dig through it again: http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q1/0182.html
  778. # [20:09] <pimpbot> Title: WWW-Talk Jan-Mar 1993: proposed new tag: IMG (at www.krsaborio.net)
  779. # [20:10] <anne> guess they didn't think alt and longdesc were that exciting and needed
  780. # [20:11] * anne hides
  781. # [20:12] <anne> http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q1/0183.html suggests <A HREF="..." INCLUDE>See photo</A> which comes close
  782. # [20:12] <pimpbot> Title: WWW-Talk Jan-Mar 1993: Re: proposed new tag: IMG (at www.krsaborio.net)
  783. # [20:12] * anne has the feeling he read this thread before
  784. # [20:12] <anne> timbl had the same idea: http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q1/0186.html
  785. # [20:12] <pimpbot> Title: WWW-Talk Jan-Mar 1993: Re: proposed new tag: IMG (at www.krsaborio.net)
  786. # [20:16] <smedero> http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q3/0703.html
  787. # [20:16] <pimpbot> Title: WWW-Talk Jul-Sep 1993: Re: Lynx (at 1997.webhistory.org)
  788. # [20:16] * Parts: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.77.148)
  789. # [20:17] <anne> http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q1/0257.html they went with <img> rather than <embed> because <embed> was too generic and would allow circular references
  790. # [20:17] <pimpbot> Title: WWW-Talk Jan-Mar 1993: Re: proposed new tag: IMG (at www.krsaborio.net)
  791. # [20:17] <anne> that e-mail also details why we ended up with Content-Type sniffing for <img>
  792. # [20:18] <smedero> yes
  793. # [20:20] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  794. # [20:22] <takkaria> nice
  795. # [20:22] <takkaria> prior art for <video> over <object> there
  796. # [20:32] <DanC> anne, "for text browsers" seems like for accessibility to me. we didn't use the word "accessibility" until later
  797. # [20:32] <Hixie> btw re the various actions for people to ensure i do something -- filing a bug is usually an effective way of making sure i do something
  798. # [20:32] <Hixie> sorry for not following the tracker but there are only so many mechanisms i can use to manage myself
  799. # [20:32] <DanC> makes sense, hixie
  800. # [20:32] <DanC> no need to apologize
  801. # [20:33] <DanC> likewise, I don't follow bugzilla much; I rely on Mike to track it for me
  802. # [20:33] <DanC> and I make no apology :)
  803. # [20:34] <Hixie> :-)
  804. # [20:34] <anne> DanC, fair enough
  805. # [20:35] * Joins: jwatt (roslea@83.87.4.17)
  806. # [20:35] * smedero can't imagine DanC is enjoying us rummaging through the www-talk shoebox
  807. # [20:35] <DanC> oh on the contrary... well, I cringe a bit when I read my own writing, but I very much appreciate poring over archives
  808. # [20:35] <smedero> :-)
  809. # [20:36] <DanC> I wish w3.org's archive of the really early stuff were better
  810. # [20:39] <DanC> Timmy's in the well again. (i.e. my dogs are all wiggly)
  811. # [20:41] <DanC> matt, did your question about liaison mechanics get answered?
  812. # [20:41] <DanC> oh... and did your action on alt get recorded? let's se...
  813. # [20:43] <DanC> you're not in the TF... fixing that...
  814. # [20:45] <DanC> rubys, when you accepted scribe duties, were you aware that "Minutes ... should be sent to public-html-wg-announce within a day or two."? (quoting from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/#telcon )
  815. # [20:45] <pimpbot> Title: W3C HTML Working Group (at www.w3.org)
  816. # [20:47] <DanC> action: matt to discuss missing-alt with the WAI CG and report back
  817. # [20:47] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  818. # [20:47] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - matt
  819. # [20:47] * RRSAgent records action 14
  820. # [20:47] <DanC> trackbot, reload
  821. # [20:47] <DanC> trackbot, status
  822. # [20:47] * trackbot knows about the following 11 users: Chris, Ben, Shawn, Dan, Larry, Michael(tm), Sam, Doug, Steve, Joshue, Julian
  823. # [20:47] <DanC> trackbot, help
  824. # [20:47] <trackbot> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  825. # [20:47] <pimpbot> Title: IRC Trackbot (at www.w3.org)
  826. # [20:48] <DanC> aha... "This can only be called from Team &channels but affects config on all channels."
  827. # [20:49] <DanC> trackbot, status
  828. # [20:51] * trackbot knows about the following 13 users: Michael(tm), Chris, Ben, Matthew, Joshue, Dan, Larry, Henri, Sam, Doug, Steve, Shawn, Julian
  829. # [20:52] <DanC> action: matt to discuss missing-alt with the WAI CG and report back
  830. # [20:52] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  831. # [20:52] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - matt
  832. # [20:52] * RRSAgent records action 15
  833. # [20:53] <DanC> action: matthew to discuss missing-alt with the WAI CG and report back
  834. # [20:53] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  835. # [20:53] * RRSAgent records action 16
  836. # [20:53] <trackbot> Created ACTION-98 - Discuss missing-alt with the WAI CG and report back [on Matthew May - due 2009-01-22].
  837. # [20:54] <DanC> hmm... we didn't talk about "proprietary languages ", even though lmm's action is pending review... it's not connected to an issue. tracker agenda buglet
  838. # [20:54] <DanC> I think the stuff we did talk about it is at least as worthwhile
  839. # [20:56] * DanC wonders if MikeSmith, rubys, or anybody wants to look at the agenda for the coming week
  840. # [20:56] <DanC> e.g.
  841. # [20:56] <DanC> action-62?
  842. # [20:56] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-62
  843. # [20:56] <trackbot> ACTION-62 -- Michael(tm) Smith to get XHTML 2 WG response to edits around name of XML serialization -- due 2009-01-18 -- OPEN
  844. # [20:56] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/62
  845. # [20:56] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-62 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  846. # [20:57] * DanC wonders if that's actually something Mike expects to do by the 18th
  847. # [20:58] <DanC> matt, I don't think it's critical that you attend every week; feel free to revise your action due dates to say "I'm doing something else this week"
  848. # [20:58] <smedero> ACTION-78 ("proprietary languages") is still being discussed on public-html... seems fine that it was skipped this week.
  849. # [20:58] <DanC> yup
  850. # [21:00] * DanC wonders why Mike thinks it will take him so long to finish @profile; considers taking it on... but figures he's got plenty on his plate already
  851. # [21:00] <DanC> action-75?
  852. # [21:00] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-75
  853. # [21:00] <trackbot> ACTION-75 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion -- due 2009-02-19 -- OPEN
  854. # [21:00] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75
  855. # [21:00] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-75 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  856. # [21:00] * DanC would be happy for rubys to take that one
  857. # [21:02] * Parts: arne (aj3@84.142.121.237)
  858. # [21:04] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  859. # [21:04] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  860. # [21:06] <anne> DanC, you're sure matt on IRC is not the W3C Matt?
  861. # [21:06] * anne thinks he his from /whois
  862. # [21:07] <DanC> ah... matt may vs matt womer
  863. # [21:07] <DanC> well, the tracker action has the right matt
  864. # [21:09] <anne> except that Matt is not on the WG afaict
  865. # [21:09] <anne> well, neither is
  866. # [21:15] <DanC> well, adobe joined the WG
  867. # [21:17] <anne> if it works for you I guess it's ok :)
  868. # [21:17] * anne doesn't really care
  869. # [21:17] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.73.153) (Quit: Leaving)
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  871. # [21:34] * Joins: darobin (robinb@81.66.15.230)
  872. # [21:50] <pimpbot> planet: Grandiosity <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/01/15/Grandiosity>
  873. # [21:59] * Hixie learns from rubys' blog that the alt text issue is still being discussed
  874. # [21:59] <Hixie> lordy
  875. # [22:01] <gsnedders> Hixie: You aren't allowed to use lordy. What use does it serve if you don't believe in there being a lordy? :P
  876. # [22:03] <Hixie> i don't believe in feces being holy either, but i use that phrase too
  877. # [22:03] <Hixie> in fact swearing by fictional characters seems far less offensive than swearing by something real :-)
  878. # [22:12] * Quits: darobin (robinb@81.66.15.230) (Ping timeout)
  879. # [22:20] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  880. # [22:21] <Lachy> I was also surprised to hear the alt text issue come up in the telcon. I thought that issue was over
  881. # [22:21] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.74) (Ping timeout)
  882. # [22:24] <Hixie> i certainly haven't heard any new information
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  886. # [22:27] <Lachy> there were no new arguments made on the telcon. I'm not even sure what the purpose of the discussion was.
  887. # [22:27] <Lachy> hsivonen may know. He participated in that discussion more than I did.
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  897. # Session Close: Fri Jan 16 00:00:00 2009

The end :)