/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-11 / end

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  70. # [10:25] <hsivonen> hmm. does C# allow switch() {} with any string values or just interned strings?
  71. # [10:25] <hsivonen> just curious after glancing at the Twintsam source link for [imps]
  72. # [10:25] <hsivonen> from [imps]
  73. # [10:29] <Lachy> hsivonen, check the language spec http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/Aa645596(VS.71).aspx
  74. # [10:33] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like any string is allowed
  75. # [10:38] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  76. # [10:58] <zcorpan> another case where serialization needs to throw: an element in the "http://www.w3.org/2000/xmlns/" namespace
  77. # [11:01] <zcorpan> and an unclear case: two attributes that have the same namespace and local name
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  87. # [13:20] * zcorpan looks at http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#NT-AttValue
  88. # [13:21] <zcorpan> where does it say that attribute have to follow the Char production?
  89. # [14:00] <hsivonen> what's the mediawiki way to say <code>?
  90. # [14:01] <hsivonen> bah. <code> according to http://diberri.dyndns.org/wikipedia/html2wiki/index.html
  91. # [14:15] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  92. # [14:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: is there a way to permanently convince the whatwg wiki that I am not a bot and to suppress the math test?
  93. # [14:29] <Lachy> hsivonen, maybe.
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  96. # [14:34] <Lachy> hsivonen, it should only ask you that when you attempt to add a URI to the page
  97. # [14:36] <hsivonen> Lachy: ah.
  98. # [14:36] <hsivonen> Lachy: I have namespace URIs
  99. # [14:36] <Lachy> ok
  100. # [14:37] <Lachy> I may be able to turn it off for some additional user groups, I'm just trying to find out what group I can put you in to do it
  101. # [14:41] <Lachy> hsivonen, I made you a Sysop and Bureaucrat so you have more rights now and won't see the captcha
  102. # [14:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
  103. # [14:45] <Lachy> does anyone know if it's possible to delete users? I want to get rid of known spammers completely
  104. # [15:03] <Lachy> I'm upgrading wordpress on the blog, so it may break a little bit during the process
  105. # [15:04] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz)
  106. # [15:05] <met_> hi
  107. # [15:05] <met_> http://blog.whatwg.org/ gives some php errors
  108. # [15:07] <Philip`> met_: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070911#l-104
  109. # [15:08] <met_> oh, haven't read yesterday log, ok
  110. # [15:08] <met_> no today, i am blind
  111. # [15:08] <met_> completelly 8-)
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  113. # [15:08] <Philip`> It was a minute before you joined :-)
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  115. # [15:09] * aaron_ is now known as aaronlev
  116. # [15:22] <Lachy> blog is working again
  117. # [15:31] <Lachy> wordpress update is complete, now with a comment preview function
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  126. # [15:38] <hsivonen> http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/List_Rules
  127. # [15:38] <hsivonen> public-html might benefit from adherence to those rules
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  129. # [15:43] <Philip`> Do they have a new secret hideout where things like "Greg's draft" of the list rules were circulated?
  130. # [15:45] <Lachy> I finally upgraded my own blog too :-)
  131. # [15:45] <Lachy> I think I was running an obsolete and insecure version of WP for a while now
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  136. # [16:04] <hsivonen> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_XML_Output
  137. # [16:04] <hsivonen> comments welcome before I implement
  138. # [16:09] * zcorpan would suggest to rename the uri attribute to url, though doesn't feel strongly about it
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  140. # [16:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. done.
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  143. # [16:15] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is it not allowed to have <code><a> or <a><code> in <message>?
  144. # [16:15] <zcorpan> i.e. nest them
  145. # [16:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: <a><code> should be allowed by the prose.
  146. # [16:15] <zcorpan> ah, right
  147. # [16:16] <zcorpan> why not the other way around?
  148. # [16:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: simplicity
  149. # [16:16] <zcorpan> ok
  150. # [16:17] <Lachy> why put the url attribute on each info, error and non-document-error element instead of just once on their parent messages element?
  151. # [16:17] <hsivonen> Lachy: because messages may pertain to schema or DTD files
  152. # [16:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: defining inheritance could save bytes, though
  153. # [16:18] <Lachy> ok
  154. # [16:18] <zcorpan> the m element is in the v.validator.nu... namespace?
  155. # [16:18] <Lachy> yeah, I'd do <messages url=".."> for the default url and then allow url="" on other elements if its different for some
  156. # [16:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: in the n.validator.nu...
  157. # [16:19] <hsivonen> Lachy: makes sense
  158. # [16:20] <Lachy> so if someone submits an IRI, will the output include the punycode version?
  159. # [16:20] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
  160. # [16:20] <Lachy> ok. what's the reason for not outputting IRIs?
  161. # [16:21] <Lachy> for better compatibility with legacy software?
  162. # [16:21] <hsivonen> Lachy: 1) I don't have the code to do that. 2) It would be less compatible with IRIless clients.
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  165. # [16:25] <Lachy> does this "implementation may count column numbers in terms of UTF-16 code units instead of characters." mean that characters above the basic multilingual plane, which use more than 16 bits, would be counted as 2 characters instead of 1?
  166. # [16:26] <zcorpan> looks good to me
  167. # [16:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
  168. # [16:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  169. # [16:28] <Lachy> hsivonen, would a Content-Type issue be emitted as a <non-document-error>?
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  171. # [16:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: hmm. IIRC, not
  172. # [16:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: IIRC, that's an IOException internally
  173. # [16:30] <Lachy> so wouldn't that qualify for <non-document-error type="io">?
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  175. # [16:33] <hsivonen> Lachy: doh. yes
  176. # [16:34] <hsivonen> I should have said yes, above. sorry
  177. # [16:34] <Lachy> hsivonen, did you look at the XML output available from validator.w3.org and base any of this of that?
  178. # [16:34] <hsivonen> Lachy: I did
  179. # [16:34] <hsivonen> Lachy: it is non-streamable
  180. # [16:35] <hsivonen> or they are, rather
  181. # [16:35] <hsivonen> "I think there are two problems with the SOAP and Unicorn formats: they are unnecessarily complex and they don’t support streaming output."
  182. # [16:36] <hsivonen> though it is possible that I overvalue streaming
  183. # [16:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: also, the W3C validator format uses the entity-escaped HTML anti-pattern
  184. # [16:42] <Lachy> what does that mean?
  185. # [16:43] <hsivonen> Lachy: it's like RSS
  186. # [16:43] <Lachy> like the <![CDATA[ stuff with escaped HTML?
  187. # [16:43] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
  188. # [16:45] <Lachy> oh I see, like in the <m:explanation> and <m:source> elements where it should just use XHTML.
  189. # [16:45] <Lachy> http://validator.w3.org/docs/api.html
  190. # [16:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: are clients expected to reject responses where the root element is "messages" in some other namespace?
  191. # [16:46] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes
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  193. # [16:48] <hsivonen> and now it is time to spec a JSON format...
  194. # [16:48] <Lachy> I don't understand the <parse-tree> section
  195. # [16:49] <hsivonen> Lachy: if I didn't salt the namespaces and someone loaded it in a browser, it would be a script injection bug to the validator.nu domain
  196. # [16:50] <zcorpan> how can you serialize the parse tree to xml if you parsed html that is not serializable as xml?
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  199. # [16:50] <Lachy> no, I understood the reason for the namespace change, but not how you serialise a parse tree
  200. # [16:50] <Lachy> wouldn't that just be the entire document?
  201. # [16:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I intend to cheat
  202. # [16:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: in the case of white space
  203. # [16:51] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what about e.g. colons in local names?
  204. # [16:51] <hsivonen> with non-NCName names, I guess I'm going to drop the parse tree
  205. # [16:51] <zcorpan> ok
  206. # [16:51] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
  207. # [16:52] <zcorpan> perhaps the parse tree could be serialized as http://simon.html5.org/specs/sdf instead? :)
  208. # [16:52] <hsivonen> I expect the parse tree part to be the least useful and the most controversial
  209. # [16:52] <Lachy> how do you intend to represent the parse tree of HTML documents, especially for the cases where HTML and XML differ
  210. # [16:52] <zcorpan> though i need to support character escaping for that format
  211. # [16:53] <hsivonen> Lachy: I intend not to
  212. # [16:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah, perhaps I should use SDF instead
  213. # [16:54] <Lachy> hsivonen, yeah, sdf would make sense
  214. # [16:55] <gsnedders> http://simplepie.org/support/viewtopic.php?id=1167 —that's so typical of PHP bugs.
  215. # [16:55] <zcorpan> "\u000C" for a form feed?
  216. # [16:56] <zcorpan> perhaps i should look at how css escapes characters and do the same
  217. # [16:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: if you want to represent arbitratry DOMs, you should probably represent UTF-16 code point sequences
  218. # [16:56] <hsivonen> not character sequences
  219. # [16:57] <hsivonen> \uXXXX
  220. # [16:57] <hsivonen> is fine
  221. # [16:57] <zcorpan> ok
  222. # [16:57] <hsivonen> with surrogates as two escapes
  223. # [16:57] <zcorpan> makes sense
  224. # [16:58] <Lachy> yeah, \uXXXX would be compatible with JavaScript escape sequences too
  225. # [16:58] <Lachy> which might be useful
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  227. # [17:03] <zcorpan> perhaps the whole spec should talk about utf-16 code points instead of characters
  228. # [17:03] <hsivonen> yeah
  229. # [17:04] <hsivonen> code units, actually
  230. # [17:04] <Lachy> zcorpan, in SDF, do all attribute nodes have to occur before any other child nodes of an element?
  231. # [17:04] <zcorpan> Lachy: no
  232. # [17:04] <zcorpan> U+0022 QUOTATION MARK -> 0x0022 UTF-16 code unit ?
  233. # [17:05] <hsivonen> yeah
  234. # [17:05] <hsivonen> but saying QUOTATION MARK is still useful
  235. # [17:05] <Lachy> so this would be conforming:
  236. # [17:05] <Lachy> e "div"
  237. # [17:05] <Lachy> t "foo"
  238. # [17:05] <Lachy> a "class" "bar"
  239. # [17:05] <zcorpan> yes
  240. # [17:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan: any particular reason for not have exactly one way of doing it? (so that results would be byte-wise comparable for equality)
  241. # [17:06] <zcorpan> i haven't thought much about serializing to sdf yet
  242. # [17:07] <Lachy> I would have expected that to be non-conforming and for each node to represented in document order
  243. # [17:08] <zcorpan> yeah, although attributes are unordered :) and if you implement it using dom methods it doesn't really matter if an attribute appears after other nodes
  244. # [17:09] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-27aa47ee32f37ef1)
  245. # [17:10] <zcorpan> if you write sdf by hand you might not want to care about what order you place the attributes (though it makes sense to put them before child nodes of the element)
  246. # [17:10] <zcorpan> but when serializing and comparing you'd probably sort the attributes
  247. # [17:15] <Lachy> hmm. sdf is a lot nicer than the format onsgmls outputs, which emits attributes before the element
  248. # [17:17] <zcorpan> is there a good character that would be encoded as a surrogate pair in utf-16 that i can use in the examples?
  249. # [17:18] <Lachy> zcorpan, U+1047E
  250. # [17:19] <zcorpan> thanks
  251. # [17:19] <Lachy> that's the one that appears in Hixie's email sig
  252. # [17:19] <zcorpan> noticed (by googling for it) :)
  253. # [17:27] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@c-66-31-86-217.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007072518]")
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  261. # [17:39] <zcorpan> ok, specced escaping
  262. # [17:42] * zcorpan hopes he got the example right
  263. # [17:43] * Joins: markp (n=markp@adsl-221-31-154.rmo.bellsouth.net)
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  265. # [17:44] <Lachy> zcorpan, can CR and LF occur anywhere within a string?
  266. # [17:45] <Lachy> so if a text node spans multiple lines, it's just represnted like this:..
  267. # [17:45] <zcorpan> they can
  268. # [17:45] <Lachy> t "this string contains
  269. # [17:45] <Lachy> a new line"
  270. # [17:46] <zcorpan> yes
  271. # [17:47] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  272. # [17:47] <Lachy> you should probably change "It is not intended for data exchange, but rather intended to be used for test suites.", especially if Henri ends up using it for the validator's parse tree output
  273. # [17:48] <Lachy> maybe say that it's primarily intended for test suites
  274. # [17:48] * Quits: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-76-88-44-219.san.res.rr.com)
  275. # [17:51] <hsivonen> communicating DOMs on XML without using XML doesn't quite feel right
  276. # [17:52] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@c-66-31-86-217.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  277. # [17:52] * hsivonen likes the images of the JSON spec
  278. # [17:53] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9027.l.pppool.de)
  279. # [17:53] <zcorpan> Lachy: changed
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  282. # [18:08] <zcorpan> how is "0x000A" generally pronounced? oh-ecks-... or zero-ecks-... ?
  283. # [18:09] <Lachy> zcorpan, I pronounce it zero-ecks...
  284. # [18:09] <zcorpan> ok
  285. # [18:09] <Lachy> why?
  286. # [18:09] <zcorpan> "A 0x..." vs "An 0x..."
  287. # [18:10] <gsnedders> zcorpan: I pronounce it oh-ecks-…
  288. # [18:10] <zcorpan> oh well :)
  289. # [18:11] <gsnedders> zcorpan: though normally only in my head. I have little occasion to actually talk about such things :)
  290. # [18:12] <zcorpan> yeah, but it might be annoying to read text that assumes the other pronounciation (by having "a" or "an" in front of it)
  291. # [18:12] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  292. # [18:13] <zcorpan> "a FAQ" vs "an FAQ" is the same
  293. # [18:13] <Lachy> whenever I read something like that, I just change it mentally to read it how I like it
  294. # [18:14] <zcorpan> yeah, that's what is annoying (not very but still)
  295. # [18:14] <Lachy> "an FAQ" is correct because I pronounce it F-A-Q rather than "Fack"
  296. # [18:15] * zcorpan pronounces it as "fack"
  297. # [18:17] <gsnedders> F-A-Q
  298. # [18:19] <Lachy> zcorpan, SDF should probably say something about character encodings
  299. # [18:20] <Lachy> should a consumer assume SDF files are encoded as UTF-8 or is that left explicitly undefined?
  300. # [18:21] <zcorpan> dunno
  301. # [18:23] <zcorpan> haven't thought much about it, but so far i've just used bomless utf-8
  302. # [18:23] <Lachy> maybe say encoded as UTF-8 or UTF-16 (with an appropriate BOM) or otherwise specified by a higher level protocol or container format
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  304. # [18:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: why bother with UTF-16 if you have a chance of mandating UTF-8?
  305. # [18:27] <Lachy> dunno
  306. # [18:28] <zcorpan> thinking about it, perhaps the spec should talk about characters instead of code units for the things that are integral to the syntax itself, and that it's just the \uXXXX escaping that should talk about utf-16 code units
  307. # [18:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the language itself should probably be defined in terms of characters but the string values it encodes should be strings of UTF-16 code units
  308. # [18:29] <zcorpan> yeah
  309. # [18:30] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net)
  310. # [18:33] <hsivonen> are there any guides on JSON design patterns?
  311. # [18:33] <hsivonen> I tried to google, but I only found references to the use of JSON itself being an Ajax design pattern
  312. # [18:35] <Lachy> you should be able to just do a 1:1 mapping between elements in the XML format and objects in JSON, with attributes represented as properties.
  313. # [18:36] <hsivonen> Lachy: wouldn't such a JSON format suck compared to one designed as JSON?
  314. # [18:36] <Lachy> maybe
  315. # [18:36] <hsivonen> Lachy: how do you do mixed content in JSON?
  316. # [18:37] <Lachy> what kind of mixed content?
  317. # [18:37] <hsivonen> the kind that mixes text and inline markup
  318. # [18:37] <hsivonen> as far as I can tell, JSON doesn't do mixed content
  319. # [18:38] <hsivonen> which means no document-style XML
  320. # [18:38] <hsivonen> only "data"-style XML
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  322. # [18:38] * zcorpan isn't really sure how to spec the escaping part
  323. # [18:38] <hober> "foo ", {"bar": [{}. "baz"]} " quux" is something like "foo <bar>baz</bar> quux"
  324. # [18:38] <Lachy> yeah, you'd have to represent xml as strings
  325. # [18:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I suggest escaping everything except code units that correspond to printable ASCII
  326. # [18:39] <hober> (assuming you fix the missing commas, typos, etc. in my example)
  327. # [18:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: assuming you want something that is hard to break and unambiguous for byte comparisons
  328. # [18:40] <zcorpan> ok
  329. # [18:40] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
  330. # [18:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: though that would make the format suck big time as a human-readable tree dump for real pages
  331. # [18:43] <hsivonen> as opposed to ASCII-dominated test cases
  332. # [18:43] * Joins: Ducki (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b98062.pool.mediaWays.net)
  333. # [18:43] <zcorpan> indeed
  334. # [18:45] <zcorpan> though mixing utf-16 escapes and utf-8 characters seems error prone
  335. # [18:46] <zcorpan> also, if all non-ascii is escaped it doesn't matter much what encoding is used for the format itself
  336. # [18:47] <Lachy> hsivonen, something like this could work http://tinyurl.com/ytldcz
  337. # [18:47] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("Pike!")
  338. # [18:47] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes, except I'm going to leave elaboration out
  339. # [18:48] <Lachy> ok
  340. # [18:50] <hsivonen> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_JSON_Output
  341. # [18:51] <Lachy> what's extract-offset?
  342. # [18:52] <hsivonen> a pointer to the character of interest inside extract
  343. # [18:52] <hsivonen> since <m> and mixed content is not JSON-like
  344. # [18:54] <Lachy> ok, so it's value would have to give start and end points or start and length
  345. # [18:55] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  346. # [18:57] <hsivonen> no, only offset to the character of interest
  347. # [18:58] <hsivonen> <m> conceptually only designates one character, but it will have to expand not to cut a sequence of a base character plus combining characters
  348. # [18:58] <hsivonen> an offset in JSON does not have that problem
  349. # [19:02] <Lachy> ok, I thought <m> would mark the whole section. e.g. for an invalid attribute, it would mark the whole thing: &lt;p <m>align="right"</m>&gt; ...
  350. # [19:03] <hsivonen> Lachy: no, it is just for indicating which part of the extract corresponds to line & col
  351. # [19:03] <Lachy> ah
  352. # [19:03] <hsivonen> attribute errors will point to the last > of the start tag
  353. # [19:05] <Lachy> oh, that's unfortunate
  354. # [19:05] <hsivonen> I need to figure out how to do this without letting a huge string of combining diacritics to be used as a DoS attack
  355. # [19:05] <Lachy> that means for something making use of the API which wants to highlight the attribute itself would need to search the string itself
  356. # [19:06] <hsivonen> Lachy: SAX only allows source locations on a per-event basis
  357. # [19:06] <Lachy> oh right
  358. # [19:06] <hsivonen> Lachy: and the whole start tag is the event
  359. # [19:07] <Lachy> I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to use a regex to find the attribute in most cases
  360. # [19:08] <hsivonen> Lachy: well, in the case of elements, the element may be implied so you wouldn't find anything matching in the source
  361. # [19:08] <hsivonen> at least SAX does some source location
  362. # [19:08] <hsivonen> the DOM does none
  363. # [19:09] <hsivonen> which is one of the reasons why I wrote my own tree model
  364. # [19:09] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9027.l.pppool.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  365. # [19:09] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T6fa5.t.pppool.de)
  366. # [19:10] <Lachy> I updated my example based on the current description in the wiki http://html5.lachy.id.au/clipboard
  367. # [19:11] <hsivonen> Lachy: is it OK to copy that into the wiki under the MIT license?
  368. # [19:13] <Lachy> as long as you comply with my copyright licence <http://lachy.id.au/about/copyright>, then sure
  369. # [19:13] * Joins: kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com)
  370. # [19:13] <zcorpan> ok, rewrote the escaping part
  371. # [19:16] <zcorpan> hmm
  372. # [19:16] <hsivonen> Lachy: unfortunately, I'm not at liberty to release my changes to the Public Domain
  373. # [19:16] <Lachy> no worries
  374. # [19:17] <Lachy> everything after the first paragraph is basically a non-binding suggestion
  375. # [19:17] <Lachy> maybe I should update it to say "or a free licence"
  376. # [19:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: I realized it was non-binding
  377. # [19:19] <hsivonen> speccing this stuff is so much more tedious than just implementing it and telling people to view source and guess
  378. # [19:21] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  379. # [19:22] <zcorpan> there, i think i got it right now
  380. # [19:23] <Lachy> I updated it
  381. # [19:27] <Lachy> hsivonen, I think you should change "extract-offset" to "offset"
  382. # [19:27] <Lachy> and consider shortening "non-document-error"
  383. # [19:30] * Philip` updates http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ref/ref.html so all the examples get automatically conformance-checkered when the HTML is generated
  384. # [19:32] <hsivonen> Lachy: any suggestions for "non-document-error"? it won't waste too many bytes as there will be unlikely to be more than two per result
  385. # [19:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: with what software?
  386. # [19:35] <Philip`> hsivonen: It's using the validator.nu API (with text output)
  387. # [19:35] <Philip`> (via httplib)
  388. # [19:37] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
  389. # [19:37] <Lachy> my example had syntax errors, I fixed them and updated the wiki
  390. # [19:37] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
  391. # [19:40] <Lachy> hsivonen, probably best to avoid "-" characters in property names because it allows scripts to use this notation: result.messages[0].line, which can't be done with result.result.parse-tree
  392. # [19:40] <Lachy> authors would have to use result.result["parse-tree"] instead
  393. # [19:41] <hsivonen> Lachy: ok. is any of the names a reserved word by any chance? e.g. "class" is a usual suspect
  394. # [19:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: should I use camelCase instead?
  395. # [19:42] <Lachy> yeah, that would work
  396. # [19:44] <hsivonen> class will be reserved in the future
  397. # [19:44] <hsivonen> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference:Reserved_Words
  398. # [19:45] <hsivonen> should I have type and subtype instead of class and type?
  399. # [19:45] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  400. # [19:46] <Lachy> yeah
  401. # [19:49] <virtuelv> (mildly OT: What is the status of selector support in Firefox 3? does http://virtuelvis.com/download/2007/09/backgammon/ render correctly?)
  402. # [19:53] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-ba24589dbc728c92)
  403. # [19:56] <Philip`> virtuelv: Doesn't work in a build from a few days ago
  404. # [19:57] <Philip`> http://www.css3.info/selectors-test/test.html indicates that everything from nth-child to nth-last-of-type is unsupported
  405. # [20:00] <hsivonen> What technical change to HTML5 is called for in the message about braille printing charts?
  406. # [20:02] * Joins: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980c6.pool.mediaWays.net)
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  410. # [20:21] <Lachy> wow, IE only has 63.86% market share now according to http://www.itproductivity.org/browser.htm
  411. # [20:30] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-d391e355.022-154-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  412. # [20:33] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T6fa5.t.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  413. # [20:35] <Philip`> Lachy: And apparently Netscape has 10% - that sounds a bit odd
  414. # [20:36] <Lachy> yeah, it's nowhere near the vales wikipedia lists from several other sources
  415. # [20:36] <zcorpan> krijnh: would be nice to pick up on /me lines also :)
  416. # [20:38] <Lachy> krijnh, it would be nice to not use grey text on a green background also. it's so hard to read
  417. # [20:38] <zcorpan> /^.{8}\* ([^ ]+)/
  418. # [20:38] <Philip`> "The survey is accurate to +/- 1.0%" is peculiar - that number of decimal places doesn't really seem justified
  419. # [20:39] <kingryan> any idea of the survey's methodology?
  420. # [20:39] <Philip`> "a majority of the NS users are on version 4.x"!
  421. # [20:41] <Lachy> see what slashdot readers have to say about it http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/11/1222256
  422. # [20:42] <zcorpan> the change is also percent units, not percents
  423. # [20:42] <Philip`> http://www.e-janco.com/Samples/BrowserSample.pdf lists the sites they got data from
  424. # [20:43] <Philip`> (I like how their you-must-register-to-download-it form is circumvented by disabling JavaScript)
  425. # [20:44] <Lachy> hmm. 9 web sites isn't really a reasonable sample size
  426. # [20:44] <Philip`> By the way, how can they say 63.86% +/- 1.0%?
  427. # [20:44] <zcorpan> e.g. opera had 0.78% in 2006 and 1.87% in 2007 according to that table, that's a change of +240%
  428. # [20:46] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-ba24589dbc728c92) ("The computer fell asleep")
  429. # [20:46] * Joins: peepo (n=Jay@host86-153-137-94.range86-153.btcentralplus.com)
  430. # [20:46] <zcorpan> Philip`: i would guess they rounded the numbers arbitrarily and picked 1.0% out from the blue :)
  431. # [20:47] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-153-137-94.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) (Client Quit)
  432. # [20:47] * Joins: Philip`_ (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk)
  433. # [20:48] <markp> re: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070906#l-554
  434. # [20:48] <markp> html5lib does NOT have a validator
  435. # [20:48] <markp> it has a prototype of an idea of a concept of a half-baked scheme of a validator
  436. # [20:48] <markp> i hope that clarifies things
  437. # [20:48] <Philip`_> How come Netscape usage increased from 6.3% to 10.2% in the past two years, when a majority of Netscape users are (apparently) Netscape 4.x? Does that mean everybody was using NS4 two years ago, or more people have started using NS4 now than two years ago?
  438. # [20:49] <markp> and a disturbing amount of it was written on a red-eye flight from CA to NC
  439. # [20:49] <Hixie> netscape usage isn't anywhere near 6% or 10%
  440. # [20:49] <kingryan> markp: I didn't mean to overrepresent it as something useful :)
  441. # [20:50] <markp> :)
  442. # [20:50] <zcorpan> some bots might identify themselves as nn4
  443. # [20:50] <zcorpan> though i wouldn't expect that to change the number much
  444. # [20:51] <Philip`_> The numbers don't seem entirely convincing
  445. # [20:52] <Philip`_> and I'd prefer to not be convinced that people still actually use Netscape 4 :-)
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  449. # [21:04] * Quits: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  450. # [21:04] * Philip`_ is now known as Philip`
  451. # [21:07] * Quits: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-27aa47ee32f37ef1)
  452. # [21:27] * zcorpan is unsure how to implement the escaping with javascript
  453. # [21:28] <Dashiva> What kind of escaping?
  454. # [21:29] <zcorpan> in sdf
  455. # [21:29] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/specs/sdf
  456. # [21:29] <zcorpan> see the last example at the bottom
  457. # [21:32] * Joins: briansuda (n=briansud@85-220-20-116.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is)
  458. # [21:33] <Dashiva> Newlines are serialized as actual newlines?
  459. # [21:34] <zcorpan> LFs, yes
  460. # [21:35] <Dashiva> Isn't that likely to cause trouble outside browsers?
  461. # [21:35] <zcorpan> why?
  462. # [21:36] <Dashiva> Could be misinterpreted as a line separator?
  463. # [21:37] <Lachy> zcorpan, see http://lachy.id.au/dev/mozilla/sidebar/Unicode/character-tools.html
  464. # [21:38] <Lachy> that has the code to deal with parsing \uXXXX
  465. # [21:38] <zcorpan> Dashiva: you mean you would parse line for line instead of character by character?
  466. # [21:38] <zcorpan> Lachy: thanks
  467. # [21:39] <Dashiva> I just know I've used text editors that do weird stuff when faced with both CR and LF mixed
  468. # [21:39] <Lachy> String.fromCharCode(codepoint) where code point is XXXX
  469. # [21:40] <zcorpan> Lachy: but will that work correctly with surrogate pairs?
  470. # [21:40] <Lachy> you have to do each one separately, JS can't deal with astral characters
  471. # [21:40] <zcorpan> Dashiva: but this format will only have LFs
  472. # [21:41] <Dashiva> Oh! I missed that
  473. # [21:41] <zcorpan> Lachy: oh. well then that makes it simpler
  474. # [21:41] <Lachy> zcorpan, you should probably make that clearer about LFs, even though that's actually specified in HTML5
  475. # [21:41] <Dashiva> What's the reason for not escaping them inside strings, though?
  476. # [21:42] <Dashiva> It makes the code more complex, after all
  477. # [21:42] <zcorpan> Lachy: html5?
  478. # [21:42] <Lachy> doesn't HTML5 specify how to serialise a DOM
  479. # [21:43] <zcorpan> umm. to html and xml using innerHTML
  480. # [21:43] <Lachy> well, actually, it defines that CR and CRLF wil be replaced with LF in the input stream, so CRs won't appear in the output
  481. # [21:43] <Lachy> unless they're added later
  482. # [21:43] <zcorpan> Lachy: right, but the dom can have CRs
  483. # [21:44] <zcorpan> Lachy: CRs have to be escaped in sdf
  484. # [21:44] <Lachy> why?
  485. # [21:44] <zcorpan> to avoid ending up with a mix of CRs and LFs
  486. # [21:45] <zcorpan> some text editors will be smart and make sure the file has consistent line endings
  487. # [21:46] <zcorpan> Dashiva: i'm not sure what is more complex by having LFs in strings
  488. # [21:47] <Dashiva> You need an additional check if ( c == 0x000A ) { emit LF }
  489. # [21:47] <Lachy> zcorpan, this works http://html5.lachy.id.au/output?data=%3Cscript%3E%0D%0Avar+c1+%3D+parseInt%28%22D801%22%2C+16%29%3B%0D%0Avar+c2+%3D+parseInt%28%22DC7E%22%2C+16%29%3B%0D%0Avar+chars+%3D+String.fromCharCode%28c1%29+%2B+String.fromCharCode%28c2%29%3B%0D%0A%0D%0Adocument.write%28chars%29%3B%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E&type=text%2Fhtml%3B+charset%3DUTF-8
  490. # [21:47] <Philip`> LFs in strings would mean you couldn't use a text editor to indent a chunk of SDF
  491. # [21:48] <zcorpan> Philip`: why not?
  492. # [21:48] <Dashiva> And from the syntax, it seems like SDF strings are intended to be JS-parseable, which the LFs break
  493. # [21:48] <Lachy> zcorpan, because you'd introduce extra spaces into the string
  494. # [21:48] <Philip`> Because the editor would add indentation at the start of each line, and if the start of a line is the inside of a string, then you'd be modifying the inside of the string unintentionally
  495. # [21:49] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
  496. # [21:49] <zcorpan> good points
  497. # [21:49] * zcorpan takes out the LF special case
  498. # [21:49] <Lachy> zcorpan, maybe allow \n and \r to occur within strings
  499. # [21:50] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-34ab702a2051cf0b)
  500. # [21:50] <zcorpan> maybe. if i do then i could also allow the other shorthands
  501. # [21:50] <Lachy> like \t?
  502. # [21:51] <zcorpan> yeah, and \f
  503. # [21:51] <Lachy> oh right
  504. # [21:51] <Lachy> yeah, those are compatible with various libraries and programming languages, so that shouldn't add too much complexity
  505. # [21:52] <Philip`> Can you just define it to be a JSON string?
  506. # [21:52] <Dashiva> That's pretty much what it is
  507. # [21:52] <zcorpan> well then :)
  508. # [21:52] <Dashiva> http://pastebot.nd.edu/3535
  509. # [21:53] <zcorpan> i guess i could simplify my parser after these changes
  510. # [21:53] * Quits: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980c6.pool.mediaWays.net) ("Weq")
  511. # [21:55] <Dashiva> One concern about the current form is that it uses a lot of bytes for non-printables inside the ascii range, but that's hardly a big deal
  512. # [21:58] * zcorpan puts sdf in version control
  513. # [22:00] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if a reply from me is expected to John Foliot's public-html follow-up to my message
  514. # [22:05] * Joins: weinig_ (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-f0aac82fc526a5fc)
  515. # [22:06] * Quits: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-34ab702a2051cf0b) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  516. # [22:06] <zcorpan> ok, changed string to JSON string
  517. # [22:09] <Hixie> any italians able to translate this for us? :-) http://scaccoalweb.vnunet.it/2007/09/html-5-ritorno-.html
  518. # [22:09] <zcorpan> google translate seems to work :)
  519. # [22:09] <Lachy> Hixie http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fscaccoalweb.vnunet.it%2F2007%2F09%2Fhtml-5-ritorno-.html
  520. # [22:10] <Hixie> wow, a translation service that works? *skeptical*
  521. # [22:11] * zcorpan points to http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/translate.html
  522. # [22:14] <zcorpan> i use that bookmarklet a lot :)
  523. # [22:14] <Hixie> :-)
  524. # [22:14] <Hixie> it doesn't work on my portal
  525. # [22:14] <Hixie> i guess encodeURIComponent() doesn't work on IDN uris
  526. # [22:29] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=lachlan_@124-170-134-71.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  527. # [22:29] * Parts: Lachy_ (n=lachlan_@124-170-134-71.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  528. # [22:51] <Hixie> www.satogo.com has a pretty cool AT tool
  529. # [22:51] <Hixie> seems on par with JAWS in many ways
  530. # [22:52] <Hixie> (there's a free trial if you want to try it)
  531. # [22:52] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-ed411acc0b675fdf) ("The computer fell asleep")
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  535. # [23:32] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  536. # [23:45] * Quits: markp (n=markp@adsl-221-31-154.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  537. # [23:50] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  538. # [23:52] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  539. # [23:54] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  540. # [23:54] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  541. # [23:57] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@c-66-31-86-217.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  542. # Session Close: Wed Sep 12 00:00:00 2007

The end :)