/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-15 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 15 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] * Joins: markp (n=markp@adsl-77-239-73.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  4. # [00:10] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  5. # [00:31] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  6. # [00:31] * Quits: dev0_ (i=Tobias@unaffiliated/icefox0) ("dev0_ has no reason")
  7. # [00:37] * Quits: markp (n=markp@adsl-77-239-73.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  8. # [00:38] * Quits: tndH_ (i=Rob@87.102.74.242) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  9. # [00:53] * Joins: om_sleep (n=mjs@17.255.104.182)
  10. # [00:53] * Quits: om_sleep (n=mjs@17.255.104.182) (Client Quit)
  11. # [00:54] * Joins: om_sleep (n=mjs@17.255.104.182)
  12. # [01:00] * Joins: markp (n=markp@adsl-77-239-73.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  13. # [01:05] * Quits: BenWard (n=BenWard@87-194-62-78.bethere.co.uk) ("Fades out again…")
  14. # [01:18] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com) (".")
  15. # [01:19] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-5d0dfa13a16a2f91) ("The computer fell asleep")
  16. # [01:26] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
  17. # [01:28] * Quits: kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  18. # [01:37] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  19. # [01:51] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-227-221-48-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  20. # [02:15] * Quits: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  21. # [02:15] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.182)
  22. # [02:18] <Lachy> Very interesting comment from Joe Clark http://blog.whatwg.org/the-longdesc-lottery#comment-9051
  23. # [02:23] * Joins: om_sleep (n=mjs@17.255.104.182)
  24. # [02:27] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@209-6-168-245.c3-0.arl-ubr2.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com)
  25. # [02:31] <jruderman> Lachy: internal server error
  26. # [02:32] <Lachy> I know
  27. # [02:32] <Lachy> I don't know why the wiki broke
  28. # [02:32] <Lachy> oh, now the blog too!
  29. # [02:32] <Lachy> Hixie, yt?
  30. # [02:38] * Joins: [1]markp (n=markp@adsl-77-239-73.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  31. # [02:44] * Quits: h3h (n=w3rd@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net) ("|")
  32. # [02:44] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  33. # [02:46] <Lachy> error message from the blog: "Fatal error: Out of memory (allocated 4718592) (tried to allocate 19456 bytes) in /home/.hardangervidda/lhunt/blog.whatwg.org/wp-includes/widgets.php on line 610"
  34. # [02:56] * Quits: markp (n=markp@adsl-77-239-73.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  35. # [02:56] * [1]markp is now known as markp
  36. # [03:09] * Joins: om_sleep_ (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-ab90aaddd247f28d)
  37. # [03:20] <Lachy> krijnh, there's a bug in your URL detection code for the logs, '>' should not be included as part of a link. http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070911#l-368
  38. # [03:23] * Quits: markp (n=markp@adsl-77-239-73.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  39. # [03:25] * Quits: om_sleep (n=mjs@17.255.104.182) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  40. # [03:29] * Joins: markp (n=markp@adsl-77-239-73.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  41. # [03:31] * Joins: theunscene (n=chatzill@66.192.31.140)
  42. # [03:32] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-76-88-44-219.san.res.rr.com)
  43. # [03:35] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachy@124-170-114-235.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Remote closed the connection)
  44. # [03:36] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  45. # [03:51] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@posom.com) (heinlein.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  46. # [03:51] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@posom.com)
  47. # [03:52] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  48. # [03:53] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@209-6-168-245.c3-0.arl-ubr2.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  49. # [03:54] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachy@124-170-114-235.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  50. # [03:56] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachy@124-170-114-235.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  51. # [04:02] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  52. # [04:05] * Quits: om_sleep_ (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-ab90aaddd247f28d)
  53. # [04:33] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@203-211-86-61.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  54. # [04:36] * Quits: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-76-88-44-219.san.res.rr.com)
  55. # [04:46] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  56. # [04:56] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachy@124-170-114-235.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  57. # [05:00] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  58. # [05:06] * Quits: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  59. # [06:02] * Joins: polin8 (n=brian@c-75-71-72-175.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  60. # [06:02] * Quits: polin8 (n=brian@c-75-71-72-175.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  61. # [06:27] * Quits: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-8a2541317ad7691c)
  62. # [06:44] <Lachy> the wiki and blog seem to be having intermittent problems. One minute it works, the next it doesn't.
  63. # [06:44] <Lachy> I suppose I should make a backup of the DB ASAP in case something serious should happens to it
  64. # [06:55] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-169-182-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  65. # [06:56] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-169-182-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  66. # [06:56] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-169-182-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  67. # [07:08] * Quits: markp (n=markp@adsl-77-239-73.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  68. # [07:16] <Lachy> it is impossible to make a back up when the server keeps dying every 2 minutes :-(
  69. # [07:29] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  70. # [07:37] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) ("http:/www.csarven.ca")
  71. # [08:06] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-76-88-44-219.san.res.rr.com)
  72. # [08:23] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@209-6-168-245.c3-0.arl-ubr2.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com)
  73. # [08:41] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  74. # [08:53] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  75. # [09:29] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@209-6-168-245.c3-0.arl-ubr2.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  76. # [09:32] * Joins: peepo (n=Jay@host86-153-137-94.range86-153.btcentralplus.com)
  77. # [09:35] * Joins: toolskyn (n=toolskyn@amy.bdick.de)
  78. # [09:40] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-153-137-94.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
  79. # [09:42] * Joins: stelt (n=chatzill@82-170-139-154.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl)
  80. # [09:48] * Joins: om_sleep (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  81. # [09:53] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.123.42.78)
  82. # [09:59] * Quits: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-76-88-44-219.san.res.rr.com)
  83. # [09:59] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-169-182-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  84. # [10:03] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  85. # [10:08] * Joins: peepo (n=Jay@host86-153-137-94.range86-153.btcentralplus.com)
  86. # [10:10] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  87. # [10:10] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  88. # [10:16] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  89. # [10:18] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-153-137-94.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
  90. # [10:56] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  91. # [10:59] * Joins: dev0 (i=Tobias@unaffiliated/icefox0)
  92. # [11:01] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  93. # [11:04] * Joins: Ducki (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980c4.pool.mediaWays.net)
  94. # [11:13] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T7702.t.pppool.de)
  95. # [11:50] * Joins: comster404 (n=comster4@ip72-194-95-68.oc.oc.cox.net)
  96. # [11:52] <comster404> you should check out http://fluidsurfandsport.com surf shop and http://jeffpelton.com
  97. # [11:59] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-211-86-61.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  98. # [12:01] * Joins: Ducki_ (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980d3.pool.mediaWays.net)
  99. # [12:03] * Parts: comster404 (n=comster4@ip72-194-95-68.oc.oc.cox.net)
  100. # [12:24] * Quits: Ducki (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980c4.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  101. # [12:31] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@203-211-80-105.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  102. # [12:31] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-211-80-105.ue.woosh.co.nz) (Remote closed the connection)
  103. # [12:36] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  104. # [12:55] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@87.102.74.242)
  105. # [12:55] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  106. # [13:02] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) ("Don't touch /dev/null…")
  107. # [13:17] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@209-6-168-245.c3-0.arl-ubr2.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com)
  108. # [13:35] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  109. # [13:43] * Quits: gavins (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  110. # [13:53] * Parts: aaronlev (n=chatzill@209-6-168-245.c3-0.arl-ubr2.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com)
  111. # [13:53] * Joins: Dahu (n=dahu@233.211-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
  112. # [13:55] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@203.178.150.98)
  113. # [14:02] * Joins: Ducki (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980d4.pool.mediaWays.net)
  114. # [14:03] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-227-221-48-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  115. # [14:04] * Joins: karlUshi (n=karl@31-35-222.wireless.csail.mit.edu)
  116. # [14:09] * Joins: webben (n=benh@82.153.85.49)
  117. # [14:20] * Quits: Ducki_ (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980d3.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  118. # [14:23] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@219.234.180.244)
  119. # [14:40] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@203.178.150.98) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  120. # [14:42] * Joins: om_sleep (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  121. # [14:42] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  122. # [14:47] <Dahu> Hi, I read this last sentence in the FAQ : "It is important to make the distinction between the rules that apply to user agents and the rules that apply to authors for produce conforming documents. They are completely orthogonal." Knowing that the majority of authors develop by copying examples on the web, and testing in their favorite browsers, how to make them aware of that distinction ?
  123. # [14:48] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-199-87.pool.emnet.ne.jp)
  124. # [14:52] <Dashiva> Badges
  125. # [14:52] <Philip`> I expect the main ways would be conformance checkers and tutorials/guides/books and discussions (on forums etc) with people who understand the rules
  126. # [14:56] <Philip`> (By the way, I think it could be good to have a "Developed with help from the HTML5 conformance checker" badge, since it can be very widespread and effective advertising for that service)
  127. # [14:56] <Dahu> Well, forums/tutorials/books have existed from the beginning. And it has nonetheless led to the poor web we can now experience... And about conformance checkers, wouldn't their implementations differs, as browsers do ? Will there be an official checkers ?
  128. # [14:56] * Quits: om_sleep (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  129. # [14:57] <webben> Dahu: The books and tutorials have not been very good ones.
  130. # [14:57] <webben> Dahu: One of the interesting goals in the HTML WG is to produce semi-official tutorials
  131. # [14:57] <webben> (the current official ones aren't too hot either)
  132. # [14:58] <Dashiva> The current official spec isn't so hot either ;)
  133. # [14:58] <Philip`> Dahu: Conformance checkers should agree on most aspects, since the specification defines what is conforming and the checkers just have to implement that
  134. # [14:59] <Philip`> though there are some requirements which are impossible to check, and implementations will tend to have bugs and missing features, so there would be some differences
  135. # [15:00] <Dashiva> And the differences would lead to those bugs being discovered (in theory)
  136. # [15:01] <Philip`> Given how people have adopted XHTML in the past few years, it looks like a significant number do actually follow expert advice to some extent, so it's not totally hopeless :-)
  137. # [15:02] <karlUshi> for what is worth, there will be news very soon about HTML 5 for Authors
  138. # [15:03] <webben> what exactly is HTML 5 for Authors? a document? a book? a project?
  139. # [15:04] <karlUshi> a document
  140. # [15:04] <webben> ok
  141. # [15:06] <Lachy> karlUshi, are you referring to this? http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ref/ref.html
  142. # [15:08] * webben wonders what the order of elements is based on there. Frequency?
  143. # [15:08] <Philip`> I think he's referring to some secretive cabal, about which I know nothing except that it exists :-p
  144. # [15:08] <karlUshi> Lachy: no
  145. # [15:08] <Philip`> webben: It's the same order as the HTML5 spec
  146. # [15:08] <webben> oh
  147. # [15:09] <webben> Philip`: So are you just stripping out the UA parsing information?
  148. # [15:09] <karlUshi> which is a good starting point but doesn't help that much in the context of authors. It makes a good detailed index though.
  149. # [15:10] <Dahu> Ok. I work with developers who have no IT diploma. When they need to do a tricky stuff, they search on google, usually find a popular horrible browser specific hack, and are just happy with it. So HTML5 is just a bet that it will change ?
  150. # [15:10] <webben> Having no IT diploma isn't some sort of bar to reading the HTML spec.
  151. # [15:11] * karlUshi is off to a F2F
  152. # [15:11] * Parts: karlUshi (n=karl@31-35-222.wireless.csail.mit.edu) ("Leaving")
  153. # [15:11] <webben> Dahu: The solution to that is to work on the search engine visibility and end-user attractiveness of the tutorials.
  154. # [15:11] <webben> And make sure they offer solutions for common problems.
  155. # [15:11] <Philip`> webben: It's more like writing a whole new document, by going through the spec and copying the points that apply to authors (and rearranging some related points so they're described in the same place)
  156. # [15:12] <Dahu> i know, but it's not in their culture to read a spec. They prefer practical solutions and examples.
  157. # [15:12] <Philip`> (Almost all of the text is new, and just a couple of examples were copied from the original spec)
  158. # [15:12] <webben> Dahu: That's a different set of people than they people who "have no IT diploma".
  159. # [15:13] <webben> (some people are doubtless members of both sets)
  160. # [15:13] <webben> Philip`: If you're not reordering the elements alphabetically, perhaps it would help to group them a bit?
  161. # [15:13] <webben> (i.e. with headings?
  162. # [15:14] <Philip`> webben: Like the grouping that the HTML5 spec uses when describing elements?
  163. # [15:14] <webben> yeah maybe
  164. # [15:15] <Philip`> I agree something like that would be good
  165. # [15:16] <Philip`> (though I don't know what'd be the best way to write it)
  166. # [15:17] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@219.234.180.244) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  167. # [15:18] <Philip`> (It should be easy enough to rearrange things, since the element definitions are mostly independent of each other)
  168. # [15:19] <webben> Philip`: If you want to make things really fancy, have you seen the user-customisable draft WCAG 2 quickref
  169. # [15:20] <webben> http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/
  170. # [15:21] <hsivonen> hmm. Google Translator translates the contents of <code>
  171. # [15:21] <hsivonen> so much for semantics
  172. # [15:21] <Philip`> webben: No, but I have now
  173. # [15:21] <hsivonen> <code>old</code>
  174. # [15:21] <hsivonen> (German to English)
  175. # [15:21] <webben> hsivonen: So much for Google Translator.
  176. # [15:22] <webben> Last time I used it, it translated the German for "elderly cats" into "elderly tigers".
  177. # [15:22] <Philip`> webben: Looks kind of like that's designed for printing
  178. # [15:22] <webben> Philip`: I don't /think/ so.
  179. # [15:23] <webben> It's a lot less useful if you can't follow the links.
  180. # [15:23] <Philip`> I'm not sure why you'd want to remove e.g. the Introduction section if you were just reading it on the screen, since it's trivial to scroll past
  181. # [15:23] <webben> I think it's more meant to provide a usable way of getting to content inside the WCAG2 labyrinth.
  182. # [15:23] <webben> Philip`: I think it remembers your settings.
  183. # [15:24] <webben> yeah, last option: Keep these settings when I leave the page.
  184. # [15:24] <webben> Just a thought, it may not help as much with HTML.
  185. # [15:24] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  186. # [15:25] <Philip`> Maybe it could be useful for showing/hiding things like the "Further details: ..." sections
  187. # [15:26] * Quits: webben (n=benh@82.153.85.49)
  188. # [15:31] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) ("Don't touch /dev/null…")
  189. # [15:31] <Dahu> I think the main problem is that developers just test their page on the browser at that's it. If it works, they don't bother if it conforms to the specs. Checking if it conforms to the spec is a waste of time. What can we do against that kind of developping behaviour ?
  190. # [15:38] <Philip`> One of the problems in that case can be solved by making all browsers act the same, so something that's tested in one browser will work in the others (even if it's nasty ugly non-conforming code)
  191. # [15:39] <Philip`> (I can't think of any realistic ways to solve the problem of people writing nasty ugly non-conforming code, though)
  192. # [15:39] <hsivonen> Dahu: the thing to do is the make the notion of conformance useful in such a way that if your document is conforming, you could expect fewer counter-intuitive surprises
  193. # [15:40] <hsivonen> Dahu: in particular, even if browsers are consistent, if they are consistently counter-intuitive, it is still worth flagging
  194. # [15:40] <hsivonen> Dahu: example: forbidden stuff in tables
  195. # [15:42] <Dahu> hsivonen: ok. interesting. Philip: it's forgetting about browsers wars. The most popular always want to add exclusive features (see MNG APNG for exemple), in order to assure its position.
  196. # [15:44] <Philip`> APNG is in the alpha builds of Opera 9.5 as well as of Firefox 3, so it's not really exclusive
  197. # [15:57] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  198. # [16:01] * Joins: Ducki_ (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980c2.pool.mediaWays.net)
  199. # [16:04] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  200. # [16:12] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-199-87.pool.emnet.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  201. # [16:22] * Quits: Ducki (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980d4.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  202. # [16:58] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@58.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  203. # [17:32] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  204. # [17:35] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-222-207.pool.emnet.ne.jp)
  205. # [17:37] <hsivonen> http://plasmasturm.org/log/469/
  206. # [17:44] * Parts: Dahu (n=dahu@233.211-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
  207. # [17:45] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  208. # [17:48] * Joins: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  209. # [17:49] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  210. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - the whole comment that he's quoting is worth reading as well
  211. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2007/09/14/Lousy-Aggregators#c1189816400.193978
  212. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> "it might be time to acknowledge that the problem is the spec instead of the implementors"
  213. # [17:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah.
  214. # [17:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: which is the reason why it might make sense to resist the kind of text/html extensibility that'd bring XML-style namespacing to HTML
  215. # [17:57] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@58.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  216. # [18:01] * Quits: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  217. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I think more people would see value in adding a general extensibility mechanism if it there were any problem cases other than dealing with SVG for which it would address any real market/user demand
  218. # [18:06] * Joins: gavins (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  219. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> extensibility mechanisms that didn't solve any specific existing or forseeable problems were what the SGML guys specialized in
  220. # [18:07] * Joins: Ducki (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980c1.pool.mediaWays.net)
  221. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> and we can see how far it got them
  222. # [18:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I agree. Though I do see a little bit of market demand for MathML integration as well (to the extent there's MathML demand in the first place).
  223. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> but perhaps the HTML case is different in that we know it's going to be around for good while longer, so building extensibility mechanisms for future possible down-the-road problems may not be as much of a waste of time as it turned out to be for SGML (now that SGML is dead and most people think it's good riddance)
  224. # [18:13] <hsivonen> the main problem with Namespaces in XML is that the cure (namespaces) seems to cause more grief than the problem (name collisions in cases where people *actually* merge two vocabularies)
  225. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> yeah, exactly
  226. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> cure is worse than the disease
  227. # [18:14] * Quits: Thezilch (i=fuz007@c-68-52-119-203.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) ("Bye.")
  228. # [18:14] * Joins: Thezilch (i=fuz007@c-68-52-119-203.hsd1.tn.comcast.net)
  229. # [18:15] <hsivonen> (the "problem" of giving a global identity to elements seems less real than the collision issue in the case of an actual merge)
  230. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> design principle: Don't try to get too far ahead of the implementor requirements and user requirements...
  231. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> don't add additional pain/hassles for all users by introducing mechanisms for solving problems that most users don't encounter and aren't asking you to provide a solution for
  232. # [18:26] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  233. # [18:26] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-222-207.pool.emnet.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  234. # [18:29] * Quits: Ducki_ (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980c2.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  235. # [18:30] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  236. # [18:30] * Joins: webben (n=benh@82.153.85.49)
  237. # [18:35] * Quits: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk) (Remote closed the connection)
  238. # [18:35] * Joins: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  239. # [18:54] * Joins: markp (n=markp@adsl-77-239-73.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  240. # [18:56] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  241. # [19:07] * Joins: [1]markp (n=markp@adsl-77-239-73.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  242. # [19:10] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@L9ff5.l.pppool.de)
  243. # [19:10] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T7702.t.pppool.de) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  244. # [19:15] * Quits: markp (n=markp@adsl-77-239-73.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  245. # [19:15] * [1]markp is now known as markp
  246. # [19:26] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-205-147.bredband.comhem.se)
  247. # [19:27] * Joins: grimboy (n=grimboy@85-211-254-202.dsl.pipex.com)
  248. # [19:32] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) ("Don't touch /dev/null…")
  249. # [19:44] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-169-182-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  250. # [19:46] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-169-182-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  251. # [19:46] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-169-182-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  252. # [19:50] * Quits: markp (n=markp@adsl-77-239-73.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  253. # [19:52] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-205-147.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  254. # [19:56] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@scil-socketset2.Stanford.EDU)
  255. # [20:03] * Joins: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b9806a.pool.mediaWays.net)
  256. # [20:08] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-76-88-44-219.san.res.rr.com)
  257. # [20:24] * Quits: Ducki (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980c1.pool.mediaWays.net) (No route to host)
  258. # [20:38] * Joins: grimeboy (n=grimboy@85.211.238.192)
  259. # [20:42] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-0922e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  260. # [20:52] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@58.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  261. # [20:52] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@L9ff5.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  262. # [20:54] * Quits: grimboy (n=grimboy@85-211-254-202.dsl.pipex.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  263. # [20:54] <zcorpan> lol... http://annevankesteren.nl/
  264. # [20:56] <Philip`> Sadly browsers don't sniff that it's meant to be text/plain :-(
  265. # [20:56] <zcorpan> hah
  266. # [21:00] <hsivonen> :-)
  267. # [21:01] <hsivonen> Shouldn't that be 503? :-)
  268. # [21:02] <zcorpan> he wants to loose page rank :)
  269. # [21:02] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-203-221-50.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  270. # [21:02] <hsivonen> 503: Google Please Don't Break My Rank While My Hosting Sucks :-)
  271. # [21:04] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  272. # [21:04] * Joins: karlUshi (n=karl@128.31.35.222)
  273. # [21:04] * Parts: karlUshi (n=karl@128.31.35.222) ("Leaving")
  274. # [21:14] <Philip`> Hmm, I need to write about forty test cases for shadow rendering, because otherwise Opera will still be winning in terms of canvas test passes
  275. # [21:17] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  276. # [21:30] * Quits: grimeboy (n=grimboy@85.211.238.192) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  277. # [21:31] * Joins: grimeboy (n=grimboy@85-211-246-45.dsl.pipex.com)
  278. # [21:37] <zcorpan> Philip`: that would be really bad :)
  279. # [21:47] * Quits: toolskyn (n=toolskyn@amy.bdick.de) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  280. # [21:51] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@scil-socketset2.Stanford.EDU)
  281. # [21:53] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-203-221-50.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  282. # [21:55] <Philip`> Oh, that's not fair - Opera is passing about a third of the cases, despite not implementing the feature at all
  283. # [21:57] <zcorpan> perhaps you need a baseline test such that if that doesn't pass, the rest are invalid
  284. # [22:00] * Joins: Ducki (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980dc.pool.mediaWays.net)
  285. # [22:02] <Philip`> Since shadows (and gradients) are meant to be optional, I suppose browsers should be able to get a perfect score without implementing them at all, so it would be useful to determine whether the browser is attempting support for the feature before counting all the tests that rely on that feature
  286. # [22:02] <Philip`> but that sounds like slightly more effort, and it wouldn't be as good at encouraging people to implement the optional features
  287. # [22:03] <Philip`> (I don't understand why they're optional, though - it would be easier if everything was just required...)
  288. # [22:16] * Quits: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b9806a.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  289. # [22:30] <zcorpan> hmm, expanding the allowed characters for unquoted attributes might make conformance checking not catch some mistakes, e.g. alt=="foo bar"
  290. # [22:31] <zcorpan> though i guess they could emit a warning
  291. # [22:33] <Philip`> They could emit a warning for all unquoted attributes, because unquoted attributes look kind of ugly and people don't use them much anyway
  292. # [22:34] <zcorpan> naw
  293. # [22:34] <zcorpan> i use them :)
  294. # [22:35] <Philip`> I occasionally try using them, but then I rediscover that they look ugly so I add the quotes again :-p
  295. # [22:35] <zcorpan> warning about things that aren't mistakes nor conformance violations just makes the checking less useful
  296. # [22:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: have you already tested alt=="foo bar" in browsers?
  297. # [22:36] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  298. # [22:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes, they don't do anything stupid
  299. # [22:36] <zcorpan> same as alt='="foo bar"'
  300. # [22:37] <zcorpan> er
  301. # [22:37] <zcorpan> same as alt='=foo' bar"=''
  302. # [22:38] <zcorpan> alt='="foo' bar"='' even
  303. # [22:38] <hsivonen> I think we should make that non-conforming in order to alert authors
  304. # [22:38] <hsivonen> that is, non-conforming for docs
  305. # [22:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: are you going to send email or should I?
  306. # [22:39] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you can do it if you want :)
  307. # [22:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok
  308. # [22:41] * Joins: peepo (n=Jay@host86-153-137-94.range86-153.btcentralplus.com)
  309. # [22:42] <zcorpan> hsivonen: btw, perhaps the input's title in http://html5.validator.nu/ should drop the last sentence since there are no options to save :)
  310. # [22:42] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  311. # [22:42] * Quits: grimeboy (n=grimboy@85-211-246-45.dsl.pipex.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  312. # [22:42] * Joins: grimeboy (n=grimboy@85-211-246-68.dsl.pipex.com)
  313. # [22:43] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ca%20b%3D%60c%20d%60%3E - IE thinks that's a single attribute
  314. # [22:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: good point. thanks
  315. # [22:48] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-169-182-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  316. # [22:52] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-153-137-94.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
  317. # [22:56] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@scil-socketset2.Stanford.EDU)
  318. # [22:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: email sent
  319. # [22:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: thanks
  320. # [22:59] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.123.42.78) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  321. # [23:07] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@scil-socketset2.Stanford.EDU)
  322. # [23:11] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@58.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) (Connection timed out)
  323. # [23:17] * Quits: webben (n=benh@82.153.85.49) (Remote closed the connection)
  324. # [23:18] * Joins: webben (n=benh@82.153.85.49)
  325. # [23:19] <zcorpan> "HTML is extremely high profile, and everybody knows enough about it to have an opinion. HTML5 is the world's biggest bikeshed." -- http://www.jaim.at/2007/09/14/brendan-taylor-the-flamewars-are-fun-to-read-though/
  326. # [23:20] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  327. # [23:24] <gsnedders> green. _please_.
  328. # [23:26] * Quits: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-76-88-44-219.san.res.rr.com)
  329. # [23:33] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-76-88-44-219.san.res.rr.com)
  330. # [23:34] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@58.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  331. # [23:35] * Quits: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-76-88-44-219.san.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  332. # [23:35] * Quits: webben (n=benh@82.153.85.49) (Success)
  333. # [23:39] <Philip`> I think the bikeshed should be coloured "bogus", since that's a nice shade of red
  334. # [23:41] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-0922e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  335. # [23:43] <Dashiva> Haha, I remember that
  336. # [23:43] <Philip`> (I don't think the HTML5/bikeshed analogy is particularly strong - bikesheds are simple so anyone can know enough to have an opinion; HTML is complex so almost nobody knows enough except about tiny parts of it, and people have opinions about lots of tiny parts of it instead of about the whole)
  337. # [23:44] <Dashiva> But it seems simple enough that people think they can
  338. # [23:44] * Quits: stelt (n=chatzill@82-170-139-154.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  339. # [23:45] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I think the key to the HTML issue is that it isn't obvious to everyone that it is the power plant--not the bikeshed
  340. # [23:45] <Philip`> (so maybe HTML5 is more like a city which has lots of bikesheds and atomic power plants in it, and almost all the discussion focuses on several of the bikesheds)
  341. # [23:45] <Dashiva> That might be closer
  342. # [23:46] <Philip`> (Not that I know of many cities which have "lots of ... atomic power plants" in them)
  343. # [23:46] <Dashiva> sim cities
  344. # [23:57] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@58.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  345. # [23:59] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@58.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  346. # [23:59] * Joins: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980d2.pool.mediaWays.net)
  347. # Session Close: Sun Sep 16 00:00:00 2007

The end :)