/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 20 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  4. # [00:01] <annevk> how about implicit rel=cite
  5. # [00:01] <annevk> paragraph scoped or some such
  6. # [00:02] <jgraham> ? In what sense implicit?
  7. # [00:03] <annevk> <p><a href=...>...</a> <q>...</q></p>
  8. # [00:04] <annevk> <a> is cite for <q>
  9. # [00:05] <jgraham> That seems like it could get messy fast <p>When I went to the <a href="">theatre</a>, I was reminded of the shakespeare quote <q>All the world's a stage</q></p>
  10. # [00:07] <jgraham> I guess <a rel=cite> doesn't work so well for replacing @cite because there's no way to attach the attribution to the quotation and it's usually the attribution that would be linked
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  12. # [00:08] <annevk> labeledby!
  13. # [00:08] <annevk> or labelledby
  14. # [00:08] <jgraham> no comment :)
  15. # [00:09] <Dashiva> p contentof div
  16. # [00:09] <annevk> it seems both spellings are used by the accessibility community
  17. # [00:09] <annevk> awesome
  18. # [00:09] <Dashiva> Then you don't have to worry about where you place your stuff
  19. # [00:09] <annevk> http://www.google.com/search?q=labeledby+w3c
  20. # [00:09] <annevk> http://www.google.com/search?q=labelledby+w3c
  21. # [00:10] <annevk> aria ftw!
  22. # [00:10] <Dashiva> labeledby sameas labelledby
  23. # [00:11] <jgraham> Dashiva: Isn't contentof spelled "owns"
  24. # [00:12] <Dashiva> Not sure. Just offhand, I'd assume a div could own an element that wasn't part of its content.
  25. # [00:13] <annevk> Did you mean: pwns
  26. # [00:13] <jgraham> Dashiva: I think aria allows you to do <div id="a">This is my div</div><p owns="a">My div is somehow a child of this</p>
  27. # [00:13] <jgraham> annevk: :-)
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  36. # [00:46] <Hixie> ok my plan is to keep cite="" basically unchanged from html4
  37. # [01:01] <Hixie> can anyone find a word that can be used to describe the category to which the following things belong?: a book, a paper, a song, a movie, a TV show, a painting
  38. # [01:02] <Hixie> ...but that does not include: a person, a boat
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  40. # [01:02] <jgraham> media?
  41. # [01:03] <Hixie> sadly "media" is even more overloaded that the word i've been using so far ("work")
  42. # [01:06] <othermaciej> "a work" is relatively accurate
  43. # [01:06] <othermaciej> particularly if backed by that list of examples
  44. # [01:06] <Hixie> yeah, that's all i could find so far
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  46. # [01:06] <Philip`> Should it include things like plays, where it's not a written or recorded work that can be directly referenced?
  47. # [01:07] * Hixie adds theatre productions, plays, operas, musicals to the list
  48. # [01:07] <jgraham> Most plays are written, no? But there are obviously other examples of oral traditions
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  50. # [01:16] <bradee-oh> other oral traditions are also "works", though a bit more loosely...
  51. # [01:17] <mpt> Hixie, "creative work"?
  52. # [01:18] <othermaciej> has Microsoft announced anything in particular about better DOM/JS support in IE8?
  53. # [01:18] <Philip`> Papers aren't really creative works
  54. # [01:18] <othermaciej> Zeldman keeps mentioning it but I don't see an official announcement or anything
  55. # [01:18] <Hixie> mpt: hm, that might work
  56. # [01:18] <Hixie> oh yeah, creative fails for things like research papers
  57. # [01:18] <Hixie> (cue jokes)
  58. # [01:19] <mpt> Why does it?
  59. # [01:19] <Hixie> but seriously, i think creative would help as much as it hurts here
  60. # [01:19] <Hixie> because people associate "creative" with art
  61. # [01:19] <Hixie> rather than research
  62. # [01:19] <jgraham> Seriously, papers are creative works
  63. # [01:19] <mpt> A more awkward example might be the telephone directory
  64. # [01:20] <jgraham> (although I agree that many people wouldn't use the term in that context, I would strongly disagree with them)
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  67. # [01:24] <Hixie> i'll just stick to "work" with a long list of examples
  68. # [01:24] <Hixie> and an explicit ban on names of people or ships
  69. # [01:24] <jgraham> This is for the <cite> element, right?
  70. # [01:24] <Hixie> yep
  71. # [01:25] * jgraham still doesn't think it's very useful
  72. # [01:25] <Hixie> me either
  73. # [01:25] <Hixie> but it's used more than <dfn>
  74. # [01:25] <Hixie> and you should have seen the hell that the xhtml2 wg received for trying to drop it
  75. # [01:26] <jgraham> Yeah, I accept that people want to use it even though doing so has no obvious benefits
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  77. # [01:27] <annevk> that was because Mark Pilgrim actually used it for something
  78. # [01:27] <annevk> that's no longer the case
  79. # [01:28] <Hixie> i've already spoken to mark about this
  80. # [01:28] <Hixie> (and i'm not saying that the aforementioned wrath is a reason to keep it, i'm just mentioning it)
  81. # [01:29] <annevk> <cite> for ship names though?
  82. # [01:29] <jgraham> I guess doing something interesting with citations will have to be left to the microformats people
  83. # [01:30] <annevk> i guess since it renders in italic it's ok :)
  84. # [01:30] <Hixie> i said ship names were explicitly banned :-P
  85. # [01:30] <Hixie> use <i>
  86. # [01:30] <annevk> (which is btw one of the reasons why <cite>Anne</cite> said: <q>...</q> doesn't make much sense; "Anne" there typically wouldn't be italicized)
  87. # [01:30] <annevk> oops
  88. # [01:31] <annevk> ah, people too
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  90. # [01:39] <Hixie> wow, i didn't realise that the first REC the w3c ever did was PNG
  91. # [01:41] <Hixie> i love the comment on libpng.org:
  92. # [01:41] <Hixie> "(By the way, despite the implications in some of CompuServe's old press releases and in occasional trade-press articles, PNG's development was not instigated by either CompuServe or the World Wide Web Consortium, nor was it led by them. Individuals from both organizations contributed to the effort, but the PNG development group exists as a separate, Internet-based entity.)"
  93. # [01:41] <Hixie> i wonder if we should publish something like that on the whatwg page :-P
  94. # [01:58] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-cite
  95. # [02:01] <annevk> "even if people call that person a piece of work" :p
  96. # [02:04] <annevk> i'd like HTML5 to define this: "window.name = '1'; name = '2'; w(name); w(window.name)"
  97. # [02:05] <annevk> there's some magic going on there
  98. # [02:05] <Hixie> is that the replaceable stuff?
  99. # [02:05] <annevk> well, it seems that some browsers are able to distinguish between window.name and name (both in the global scope)
  100. # [02:06] <annevk> i think that's different from replaceable, but I'm not sure
  101. # [02:07] <Hixie> odd
  102. # [02:07] <annevk> what's not odd is that sites rely on this
  103. # [02:07] <Hixie> when you say "browsers"
  104. # [02:07] <Hixie> which browsers?
  105. # [02:07] <Hixie> firefox doesn't seem to distinguish them
  106. # [02:07] <annevk> Firefox and Internet Explorer
  107. # [02:08] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cscript%3Ewindow.name%20%3D%20%271%27%3B%20name%20%3D%20%272%27%3B%20w(name)%3B%20w(window.name)%3C%2Fscript%3E
  108. # [02:08] <Hixie> window.name = 'a'; name = 'b'; name + ' ' + window.name; on http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/js-eval-window/ evaluates to "b b"
  109. # [02:08] <annevk> I get 2, 1 in the log
  110. # [02:08] <Hixie> i get 2,2
  111. # [02:09] <Hixie> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.9b2pre) Gecko/2007112904 Minefield/3.0b2pre
  112. # [02:09] <annevk> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9b4pre) Gecko/2008021204 Minefield/3.0b4pre
  113. # [02:09] <Hixie> wow, mine is old
  114. # [02:09] <annevk> get "b a" for yours
  115. # [02:11] <Hixie> ff2 gives b b/2 2 too
  116. # [02:12] <annevk> yeah
  117. # [02:12] <Hixie> ff3 nightly crashes on startup
  118. # [02:12] * Hixie nukes his profile
  119. # [02:13] <annevk> heh, I even get 2 2 in IE7
  120. # [02:13] <annevk> maybe I'm testing this wrongly
  121. # [02:13] <annevk> could be that it only applies to nested browsing contexts or so, I guess :(
  122. # [02:15] <annevk> Hixie, btw, could you add "html" and "css" as resources to the live dom viewer?
  123. # [02:16] <annevk> maybe even script that does w('run') or something like that
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  126. # [02:20] <Hixie> adbded
  127. # [02:20] <Hixie> added even
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  132. # [03:45] <Hixie> othermaciej: the workers idea i proposed included a DOMImplementation object, from which you can create a Document
  133. # [03:45] <Hixie> afk bbiab
  134. # [03:46] <othermaciej> Hixie: I haven't read over all the proposals closely yet, but that would indeed raise the same issue as the X part of XHR being present
  135. # [03:47] <othermaciej> I can see how it could be useful but at least in WebKit I think it would significantly increase the implementation complexity
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  140. # [04:26] <roc> eek yes that would be real pain
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  147. # [04:51] <Hixie> really?
  148. # [04:51] <Hixie> huh
  149. # [04:52] <Hixie> i would have thought you could run a DOM on a different thread without problems, what of the DOM implementation is not thread safe?
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  151. # [04:57] <roc> depends on the implementation, but it's easy to imagine that the DOM uses global internal caches
  152. # [04:58] <roc> and it's not just the DOM but everything the DOM touches
  153. # [04:58] <roc> canvas, video, you name it
  154. # [04:59] <Hixie> true
  155. # [05:00] <Hixie> it would be sad if it was not available
  156. # [05:00] <Hixie> creating markup is one of the things i'd expect to happen in a worker
  157. # [05:00] <Hixie> even if it's not manipulating forms, videos, audio, etc.
  158. # [05:01] <roc> strings and innerHTML baby
  159. # [05:01] <roc> gotta save something for HTML6
  160. # [05:01] <Hixie> creating markup with strings is sub-optimal
  161. # [05:01] <Hixie> but maybe e4x can find a use finally :-)
  162. # [05:01] <roc> The JS library writers say it's actually optimal in practice :-)
  163. # [05:01] <Hixie> i didn't mean performance-wise
  164. # [05:01] <Hixie> :-)
  165. # [05:04] <Hixie> bbl
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  208. # [10:10] <Philip`> http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2008/02/19/bloaty-parts-of-the-whatwg-html5-specification-that-should-be-removed/
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  210. # [10:13] <annevk> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/02/19/all-these-years
  211. # [10:14] <krijn> Does he know there's a <mark> element as well now? :)
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  220. # [10:45] <Dashiva> "they’re taking away my right to cite a person"
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  225. # [11:00] <jgraham__> Dashiva: Yeah. I managed to restrain myself from asking which set of laws guaranteed that particular right
  226. # [11:01] * jgraham__ doesn't remember it being part of the EU convention on human rights
  227. # [11:04] <Philip`> A right to life, a right to liberty and security, a right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, a right to use <cite> for people's names?
  228. # [11:04] <Philip`> Doesn't quite fit, I think
  229. # [11:04] <Dashiva> Maybe it fits into the religion part
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  233. # [11:15] <annevk> here's some more from that stuff yesterday: http://wiki.mozilla.org/Gecko:SplitWindow
  234. # [11:16] <annevk> i guess it's unlikely to affect the topmost browsing context
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  238. # [13:13] <Lachy> damn, <cite> should be allowed for people's names. How else is one expected to markup something like: <p><cite>John Smith<cite> said <q>Hello World!</q></p> ?
  239. # [13:13] <Lachy> I use it all the time for people's names when I quote from blog entries. I usually use it for both the author and the article title.
  240. # [13:14] <Philip`> What benefit do people get from you using it like that?
  241. # [13:15] <Lachy> I don't know, it's what I do
  242. # [13:16] <Lachy> maybe I've been using it wrongly all these years. I don't know
  243. # [13:16] <Philip`> So it's superstition? :-)
  244. # [13:17] <annevk> i did that too, but it recently learned that the convention is that those names should not be in italic and other than that there was no apparent benefit
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  246. # [13:18] <Lachy> ok. If there's no typographical convention for people's names, then I guess I'm wrong
  247. # [13:20] <annevk> s/but it/but I/ ...
  248. # [13:21] <hsivonen> Lachy: in Finland, there's a convention in newspapers and magazines (not books) to bold the first instance of each personal name in an article
  249. # [13:21] <hsivonen> Lachy: clearly, not what <cite> is good for
  250. # [13:22] <annevk> <b>
  251. # [13:23] <hsivonen> yes
  252. # [13:35] <annevk> lol, someone wants to put advertisements on a few of my pages for inifinite time for a one-time 200 USD
  253. # [13:36] <Lachy> annevk, I get spam like that occasionally (though usually caught by my spam filter)
  254. # [13:36] <annevk> it's a serious offer
  255. # [13:36] <hsivonen> annevk: was the price disclosed in the initial offer? the people who want to advertise on my site never disclose the money figures up front but promise to make it worthwhile for me
  256. # [13:36] <Lachy> yeah, I even had some serious offers once
  257. # [13:37] <Lachy> It prompted me to publish my advertising policy on my site
  258. # [13:37] <annevk> hsivonen, oh no, I replied
  259. # [13:37] <Lachy> http://lachy.id.au/about/advertising
  260. # [13:37] <annevk> i do run advertising
  261. # [13:38] <annevk> but it's finite time, has limited impact on my software, has zero maintenance cost, and gives me a share that i think is acceptable
  262. # [13:38] <Lachy> on annevankesteren.nl?
  263. # [13:38] <Lachy> I've never seen any ads
  264. # [13:38] <annevk> it's hardly noticable
  265. # [13:39] <annevk> search for "beslist.nl"
  266. # [13:39] <annevk> (inline search)
  267. # [13:39] <Lachy> oh
  268. # [13:39] <Lachy> that's the best advertising I've seen. all sites should do that! :-)
  269. # [13:40] <hsivonen> hmm. seems like they are partly paying for the google juice
  270. # [13:41] <Camaban> google would say those links should have nofollow on them :)
  271. # [13:41] <hsivonen> these advertisers seem to think they are paying for google juice but aren't getting any: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/sup
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  273. # [13:43] <annevk> hsivonen, true
  274. # [13:44] <Camaban> could be debated
  275. # [13:45] <annevk> hsivonen, heh, probably the only w3.org page with "Generic Viagra"
  276. # [13:46] <annevk> or maybe not, check this out: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:w3.org+viagra
  277. # [13:46] <Camaban> have Google stated that links on pages like that pass no link pop?
  278. # [13:46] <Camaban> just ebcause they are told not to follow them, doens't mean they can't take them into account for link pop
  279. # [13:47] <hsivonen> Camaban: IIRC, nofollow is a misnomer and means nopagerank
  280. # [13:48] <Camaban> well, when I first mentioned nofollow, I was on about rel=nofollow, and yes, google suggested using that to combat spam, and have since recommended it for marking up ads as well
  281. # [13:48] <Camaban> because they don't feel those links should pass PR
  282. # [13:49] <Camaban> but the robots meta tag is a bit different
  283. # [13:49] <hsivonen> oh
  284. # [13:49] <hsivonen> the W3C seems to think they aren't selling google juice, though
  285. # [13:50] <Camaban> heh, well it's come up in SEO circles a few timesa about the 'paid links' the W3C has on that page
  286. # [13:50] <hsivonen> but it's pretty obvious that those who buy placement on that page think they are buying it
  287. # [13:50] <Camaban> especially as it's a high authority domain
  288. # [13:51] <annevk> now and then i read something or hear something from these so-called SEO's and i often doubt they know what they're talking about
  289. # [13:51] <Camaban> toolbar suggest that particular page has a PR of 8, a link from like that is worth a fair bit :)
  290. # [13:52] <Camaban> annevk: there are lots of people who call themselves SEO guru's who think meta keywords still make a difference in ranking
  291. # [13:52] <Camaban> on the other hand, there are numerous people who do have a clue :)
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  295. # [14:03] <Camaban> ok, having checked, it seems Matt Cutts has stated that meta nofollow does the same as rel=nofollow, so those links should indeed NOT be passing google juice
  296. # [14:04] <Camaban> the page is indexed, so the links can be found as part of the page, but they aren't benefiting the recipients in terms of link popularity :)
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  310. # [17:07] <zcorpan> Philip`: ping
  311. # [17:09] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/cite.txt in case anyone is interested
  312. # [17:09] <Philip`> zcorpan: Hello
  313. # [17:10] <Philip`> (Is there some WYSIWYG editor that encourages people to use <cite> when they want presentational italics?)
  314. # [17:11] <webben> knowing the general quality of WYSIWYG editors, probably
  315. # [17:11] <webben> that's a lot of support for CITE meaning citation not just title of work.
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  317. # [17:14] <gsnedders> Philip`: (nothing widely used, at least)
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  319. # [17:15] * Philip` is just wondering how <cite><font size="4"> No.. No....please, no electric shocks.</cite></font> comes about
  320. # [17:16] <Philip`> Actually, I guess a WYSIWYG editor usually wouldn't generate misnested tags
  321. # [17:16] <webben> from http://achristiancounselor.com/witness.html ?
  322. # [17:17] <Philip`> Yes
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  324. # [17:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: OpenOffice.org and derivatives produce <cite> for what is labeled as Quotation in the English UI
  325. # [17:22] <webben> and that matches the use on that page
  326. # [17:22] <webben> that's not an uncommon confusion
  327. # [17:22] * webben wonders if that's been filed as a bug
  328. # [17:22] <Philip`> Hmm, that doesn't match the other uses on that page
  329. # [17:23] <hsivonen> Quotation is Zitat is German and OOo was originally developed by a German team
  330. # [17:23] <Philip`> (<FONT color="#FF0000" size=4>Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever</FONT>. He healed then, so He heals now. <cite><b> That was as clear as a bell and simple as pie.</b></cite>)
  331. # [17:23] <zcorpan> Philip`: it seems that two tests in the canvas test suite have no reference image, yet. when you have compared the results, have you skipped them or set them to pass or fail?
  332. # [17:24] <webben> Philip`: It's possible that having inserted a quotation the author then copied and pasted to get the same formatting or something.
  333. # [17:25] <Philip`> zcorpan: I thought there were more than that with no reference image, but only in cases where the result is determined automatically by script and there's no need to manually compare against a reference image
  334. # [17:26] <zcorpan> Philip`: ok, two that i can't determinate if it's a pass or a fail, and they are missing reference images (commented as #TODO)
  335. # [17:27] <zcorpan> Philip`: and they never complete in the runner
  336. # [17:27] <Philip`> 2d.imageData.put.{clamp,round}?
  337. # [17:27] <zcorpan> yes
  338. # [17:27] <Philip`> (I can't see any other TODO-commented ones)
  339. # [17:28] <Philip`> Those really ought to be determined pass/fail by the script
  340. # [17:28] <zcorpan> seems they aren't
  341. # [17:31] <Philip`> In any particular browser/version?
  342. # [17:31] <Philip`> I've not seen it fail anywhere before, and don't see why it would start
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  344. # [17:33] <zcorpan> i'm testing with an opera build
  345. # [17:33] <Philip`> Oh, uh...
  346. # [17:34] <Philip`> Does the page's script have the "# TODO ..." line at the bottom?
  347. # [17:34] <Philip`> like, in JavaScript?
  348. # [17:34] <Philip`> where it's a syntax error
  349. # [17:34] <Philip`> because I had mis-indented my YAML
  350. # [17:34] <Philip`> and I fixed the online HTML files but not uploaded the updated source data
  351. # [17:35] <zcorpan> aha
  352. # [17:35] <zcorpan> yeah, they have # TODO
  353. # [17:36] <Philip`> If you're building from the YAML source, just remove two spaces before the "# TODO: c" lines and it should be happier
  354. # [17:36] <Philip`> I really should upload a fixed version at some point, but it takes a non-zero amount of effort...
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  371. # [19:12] <zcorpan> i think <blockquote>...<credit>-- <a href>Ian</a></credit></blockquote> should replace <blockquote cite>
  372. # [19:13] <zcorpan> and <q cite> just be dropped
  373. # [19:14] <zcorpan> (or maybe even drop <q> completely)
  374. # [19:16] <Lachy> <blockquote>... <cite>Ian</cite></blockquote> is commonly used for that purpose
  375. # [19:16] <Lachy> though, now that's disallowed
  376. # [19:17] <krijn> Wasn't that <blockquote>..</blockquote><p><cite>Ian</cite></p> recently ?
  377. # [19:17] <zcorpan> yeah, but cite doesn't really give you the desired styling, and makes styling a bit more difficult than having a separate element
  378. # [19:17] <zcorpan> krijn: yeah, that also has problems with styling
  379. # [19:17] <krijn> Yeah
  380. # [19:20] <krijn> So that's what you get when you try to work with the draft now :)
  381. # [19:21] <zcorpan> what?
  382. # [19:21] <krijn> http://fronteers.nl/blog/2008/01/commissie-diplomering-zoekt-vragen - I tried following the HTML5 examples there
  383. # [19:21] <krijn> Almost a month ago that was how you should use <blockquote> and <cite> :)
  384. # [19:22] <krijn> Ow, it still is
  385. # [19:22] <krijn> Even though the name there isn't
  386. # [19:22] <krijn> Oh well
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  393. # [19:47] <zcorpan> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20080220#l-423
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  396. # [19:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what's "there"?
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  406. # [20:41] <hsivonen> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/02/19/Odd-Partnerships#c1203530343.647028
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  413. # [21:33] <gsnedders> dbaron: did the table implement HTML 4.0 or HTML 4.01?
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  427. # [22:42] <Hixie> annevk: see my mail to csswg before you change the reference :-)
  428. # [22:47] <annevk> thanks
  429. # [22:47] <annevk> I thought Mark Baker was more pragmatic
  430. # [22:47] <annevk> :(
  431. # [22:49] <annevk> and Mozilla dropping credentials in requests is also beyond me
  432. # [22:52] <hsivonen> annevk: dropping credentials?
  433. # [22:53] <annevk> they suddenly want to do what some people have been advocating, not sending cookies or authentication info
  434. # [22:53] <annevk> no reason has been given
  435. # [22:54] <gavin> where was this announced?
  436. # [22:55] * Hixie decides not to reply to some e-mails from hsivonen and annevk about <section> where they're just responding to other e-mails on the subject without really making suggestions for the spec
  437. # [22:55] <Hixie> (e-mails from 2004/2005)
  438. # [22:55] <annevk> gavin, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2008Feb/0203.html
  439. # [22:55] <annevk> Hixie, if I don't raise questions but just give answers there's no need to either quote or reply to me
  440. # [22:56] <Hixie> :-)
  441. # [22:56] <Hixie> yeah, you and henri have both said that before iirc
  442. # [22:56] <gavin> annevk: http://wiki.mozilla.org/User:Sicking/Cross_Site_XHR_Review provides some rationale
  443. # [22:57] <gavin> the reasons appear to mostly be "it's safer in case something goes wrong"
  444. # [22:57] <annevk> it defeats most use cases
  445. # [22:58] <gavin> I'm not really familiar enough with the usecases to comment
  446. # [22:58] <annevk> gavin, but yeah, that's not a new reason
  447. # [22:58] <annevk> gavin, k
  448. # [22:58] <Hixie> you can already send cookies cross-site using <form>
  449. # [22:58] <annevk> (I read that page earlier fwiw.)
  450. # [22:58] <Hixie> anything that's going to go wrong is already going wrong
  451. # [22:59] <Hixie> the problem is only reading the data back
  452. # [22:59] <Hixie> under anne's fascist "no fancy headers" scheme, you can't even control the content-type!
  453. # [22:59] <Hixie> :-P
  454. # [22:59] <annevk> yeah, lets blame me :p
  455. # [22:59] <gavin> these would be good points to bring up with sicking, I guess
  456. # [22:59] <gavin> maybe you already have
  457. # [23:00] <annevk> Hixie, I have since made a new proposal for headers based on suggestions from Henri, but maybe I should do that again in a separate thread
  458. # [23:00] <Hixie> sicking doesn't sound very convinced based on that wiki page
  459. # [23:00] <Hixie> he even himself raises issues with not sending cookies
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  461. # [23:01] <annevk> probably comes from someone else
  462. # [23:01] * annevk looks at jruderman
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  464. # [23:03] <jruderman> last tuesday, sicking and i were the only ones arguing for sending cookies. most of the others in the meeting were arguing for not sending cookies.
  465. # [23:04] <annevk> wow
  466. # [23:04] <jruderman> it's not very frequent for dan veditz and me to disagree. that was strange.
  467. # [23:04] <jruderman> we spent a whole hour arguing about whether cookies should be sent
  468. # [23:04] <Hixie> if you don't send cookies, it's basicalyl useluss
  469. # [23:04] <Hixie> less
  470. # [23:04] <Hixie> lly
  471. # [23:05] <jruderman> it still works for "public data" without cookies, but yeah
  472. # [23:05] <Hixie> cross-site xhr is not for public data
  473. # [23:05] <Hixie> we can already do that with <script> and json
  474. # [23:05] <Hixie> it's for submitting data (post, etc)
  475. # [23:06] <hsivonen> it seems to me that not sending cookies will lead to site having to exchange tokens and then encoding the tokens in the request URI
  476. # [23:06] <annevk> yeah, and all the non-GET stuff is protected by a preflight request...
  477. # [23:06] <jruderman> <script> and json is less safe
  478. # [23:06] <annevk> hsivonen, the problem with that is that the origin server shouldn't have to know the credentials
  479. # [23:06] <Hixie> jruderman: that _really_ isn't a concern
  480. # [23:06] <hsivonen> at which point the other site has the token and can use it without further participation from the user
  481. # [23:06] <Hixie> jruderman: to most people
  482. # [23:07] <jruderman> hsivonen: or worse, linkedin asking for your gmail password instead of going through the trouble of getting users to send tokens over
  483. # [23:07] <hsivonen> annevk: right, but that seems to be what not sending cookies will lead to
  484. # [23:07] <Hixie> yup
  485. # [23:07] <annevk> hsivonen, true, but that's what we have now
  486. # [23:07] <annevk> hsivonen, so not sending credentials will not give improvements basically
  487. # [23:08] <jruderman> there was also a bunch of discussion of getting users to opt-in to sending cookies for specific (requesting site, target site) pairs
  488. # [23:08] <Hixie> oh lord
  489. # [23:08] <annevk> i saw that
  490. # [23:08] <Hixie> please don't involve the user...
  491. # [23:09] * annevk was also scared about the UI stuff he saw on the wiki
  492. # [23:09] <jruderman> that was the strangest part: dveditz was the one arguing for involving the user
  493. # [23:09] <jruderman> he's usually against asking the user questions
  494. # [23:09] <jruderman> and this question would be especially nonsensical
  495. # [23:09] <jruderman> "may firefox send your cookies for gmail to gmail when linkedin wants something?"
  496. # [23:09] <jruderman> "huh?"
  497. # [23:10] <annevk> heh
  498. # [23:10] <Hixie> "would you like to use another browser instead?"
  499. # [23:10] <jruderman> we're having the third part of the cross-site xmlhttprequest security review at 3pm california time (53 minutes from now). you guys are welcome to join.
  500. # [23:11] <annevk> mpt would make a funny blog post out of that one at least :)
  501. # [23:11] <jruderman> oh man i miss mpt
  502. # [23:11] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  503. # [23:12] <jruderman> i don't really remember what the arguments against sending cookies were, unfortunately
  504. # [23:12] <jruderman> i should have taken better notes
  505. # [23:12] <jruderman> i'm about to walk from my apartment to the mozilla office, which takes about 22 minutes
  506. # [23:13] * jruderman peers out the window to make sure the thunderstorm from last night is gone
  507. # [23:14] <annevk> is there an IRC channel for the meeting?
  508. # [23:14] <annevk> sicking didn't mention any...
  509. # [23:16] * Joins: aroben__ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  510. # [23:18] <jruderman> it's an in-person / telephone conference meeting
  511. # [23:18] <jruderman> sometimes such meetings have irc "back-channels" for pasting URLs and complaining when you get disconnected
  512. # [23:18] <Hixie> anyone know of a good web page that can take a URL to a csv file and chart one of the columns as a line chart?
  513. # [23:19] <jruderman> there's also debate about whether <iframe> should send cookies, btw
  514. # [23:20] <Hixie> i'm not worried about that one
  515. # [23:20] <Hixie> since if you stop sending cookies with iframes, all of google will break
  516. # [23:20] <Hixie> and so that change would never ship
  517. # [23:20] <jruderman> lol k
  518. # [23:20] <annevk> thank god for Google
  519. # [23:21] <annevk> :twisted:
  520. # [23:21] * Hixie fails to find good csv->chart webware
  521. # [23:21] <Hixie> i guess i'll have to do my own
  522. # [23:22] <jruderman> Hixie: knowing that we can never turn off third-party cookies for <iframe> might affect the XHR cookie discussion
  523. # [23:22] <jruderman> so thanks
  524. # [23:22] <Hixie> np
  525. # [23:22] <annevk> Hixie, you could prolly use piechart or something
  526. # [23:23] <Hixie> jruderman: fwiw, google basically also couldn't use cross-domain xhr ("xxx") without cookies either
  527. # [23:23] <annevk> though you'd still have to pull the data through XHR, parse it, and feed it
  528. # [23:24] <Hixie> rendering the chart isn't hard
  529. # [23:24] <jruderman> how does "cross-domain xhr" become "xxx"?
  530. # [23:24] <Hixie> i just hoped someone had done it for me
  531. # [23:24] <Hixie> jruderman: "CROSS-domain eXtensions to Xmlhttprequest"
  532. # [23:25] <jruderman> that's cheating, the second x is 'extensions' and the third is really 'extensible'
  533. # [23:26] <Hixie> bacronyms are all about cheating
  534. # [23:26] <jruderman> hehe
  535. # [23:26] <jruderman> bbiab
  536. # [23:26] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  537. # [23:27] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  538. # [23:31] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  539. # [23:32] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
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  541. # [23:33] * Quits: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  542. # [23:36] <annevk> ok, put a non-fascist header proposal up
  543. # [23:36] <annevk> (i did it before, but this one has its own subject line)
  544. # [23:38] <annevk> > What about Titanic? How should I mark that up?
  545. # [23:38] <annevk> <xhtml2>
  546. # [23:40] <annevk> By the way, the Mozilla discussion jesse outlines above (especially with the <iframe> remark) reminds of the discussion we had at Opera on this very subject
  547. # [23:45] * aroben__ is now known as aroben
  548. # [23:48] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.100.222) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  549. # [23:51] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-921392bdfe468b09) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  550. # [23:59] * Joins: sicking (n=chatzill@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  551. # Session Close: Thu Feb 21 00:00:01 2008

The end :)