/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Mar 22 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Philip`> <text style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:14.00;"> - doesn't it need to quote the string?
  4. # [00:01] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> no
  6. # [00:01] <Philip`> Oh
  7. # [00:01] <Hixie> it does, however, need units on the font-size
  8. # [00:02] <Philip`> Oh
  9. # [00:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: in SVG?
  10. # [00:02] <Hixie> yup
  11. # [00:02] <Hixie> unless you use the font-size="" attribute
  12. # [00:03] <hsivonen> in retrospec, it might have been good to make unitless default to px in CSS even in the standards mode
  13. # [00:03] <Hixie> except that would clash with unitless numbers in line-height, font, and other properties
  14. # [00:03] <hsivonen> unitless line-height is redundant with %
  15. # [00:04] <Hixie> nope
  16. # [00:04] <Hixie> they inherit differently
  17. # [00:04] <hsivonen> too difficult :-)
  18. # [00:04] <Hixie> (numbers allow lines to expand to fit children with bigger font sizes, %s don't)
  19. # [00:04] <Hixie> i'm not defending the design of the language
  20. # [00:05] <Hixie> just explaining why the svg group got it wrong
  21. # [00:07] <Philip`> http://www.gerv.net/security/link-fingerprints/ - "half a loaf is better than no bread" - I think that's not true in general - the half loaf might be covered in mould, and it'd be better if you didn't have any bread at all
  22. # [00:08] <Hixie> i think we already discussed fingerprints on the list once
  23. # [00:08] <hsivonen> http://mindforks.blogspot.com/2008/03/aria-templateid-explained.html
  24. # [00:08] <Hixie> and came to the conclusion it wasn't a good idea
  25. # [00:08] <Hixie> i was hoping someone would find the reference and reply to him before i had to :-)
  26. # [00:08] <hsivonen> I wonder how aria-templateid scales on the time axis given the update cycle of AT
  27. # [00:08] <hsivonen> compared to the update cycle of Web 2.0 apps
  28. # [00:08] * Hixie wonders what happens if he sets aria-templateid="google.com/gmail" on his blog
  29. # [00:08] * Quits: anttik_ (n=antti@17.255.105.109) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  30. # [00:09] <othermaciej> what's aria-templateid?
  31. # [00:09] <Hixie> <hsivonen> http://mindforks.blogspot.com/2008/03/aria-templateid-explained.html
  32. # [00:10] * Philip` tends to download files by copying the URL and pasting it into wget, and then getting bash errors and doing it again with quotes around the URL argument, which would avoid the benefits of link hashing
  33. # [00:10] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acbh19.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  34. # [00:10] <othermaciej> that sounds like an amazingly bad idea
  35. # [00:10] <Hixie> othermaciej: you hate blind people!
  36. # [00:11] <hsivonen> othermaciej: you are not the first person with that initial reaction
  37. # [00:12] <takkaria> I can't imagine AT vendors actually implementing support for it
  38. # [00:12] <Philip`> Hixie: If you did that, it would make your blog less usable to some people with AT, and there are much easier ways you can cause problems for those people, so I don't see why it matters
  39. # [00:13] <Hixie> Philip`: it seems like reducing the ways that authors can (accidentally) screw over their users would be a good thing
  40. # [00:14] <Hixie> Philip`: and, similarly, increasing the number of ways that authors can screw over their users would be a bad thing
  41. # [00:14] <Philip`> Why would someone accidentally set aria-templateid="google.com/gmail" on their site?
  42. # [00:14] <othermaciej> the saddest thing about it is that it seems to presume that web sites themselves won't use ARIA to give a good enough accessibility experience, so that AT needs special-case hacks for different sites
  43. # [00:14] <Hixie> Philip`: why would someone accidentally put <!DOCTYPE PHP PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD PHP 4.01//EN"> as their doctype?
  44. # [00:14] <Hixie> othermaciej: firevox shows that this is already happening
  45. # [00:15] <Hixie> othermaciej: though why a site would care enough to put an aria-templateid attribute but not enough to make their site usable, i dunno
  46. # [00:15] <Dashiva> I find the AT upgrade cycle a much more persuasive argument :)
  47. # [00:16] <othermaciej> we have indeed heard many times that the brutally slow AT upgrade cycle makes changing accessibility features fruitless
  48. # [00:16] <Philip`> Hixie: There's an infinite number of errors like that that people can accidentally introduce; but there's only a (pretty small) finite number of aria-templateid="..." strings that any AT would care about, so there's a vastly smaller chance of that happening by accident
  49. # [00:16] <othermaciej> for instance that a new table header association algorithm was worthless, since it would be forever until AT supports it, and twice forever until users who need it have that version
  50. # [00:17] <Hixie> Philip`: except that the sites that would use it are those most likely to be held up as examples to learn from
  51. # [00:17] <Hixie> othermaciej: way to rain on what i'm doing on my other monitor :-P
  52. # [00:18] <Philip`> aria-templateid allows competition in (e.g.) the Gmail-usability space, because lots of vendors (and extension developers etc) can all try to make it work as well as possible; otherwise only Google could improve Gmail usability, so they're going to do less well than when there are many competing attempts
  53. # [00:19] <Hixie> nonsense
  54. # [00:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm not saying I agree with such sentiments
  55. # [00:19] <Hixie> Philip`: ATs could easily just hardcode the gmail uris
  56. # [00:19] <Dashiva> Philip`: Replace templateid with the URL and you have a user script system that works today
  57. # [00:20] <Philip`> Maybe Google Maps is a better example, since that often gets embedded in other web pages and you can't hardcode the page URLs
  58. # [00:20] <Philip`> (Yay mashups!)
  59. # [00:21] <Hixie> that might hypothetically work, if templateid is on a per-subtree level, but that would need extremely careful definition
  60. # [00:22] <hsivonen> (the visual part of Google maps is very visual though)
  61. # [00:22] <Hixie> horrah, ms feedback on storage
  62. # [00:23] <Philip`> I suppose the ARIA spec is a little vague on aria-templateid, but maybe someone will blog about it in an extremely careful detailed way
  63. # [00:23] <Hixie> man, i should use that model to write html5
  64. # [00:23] <Hixie> that would be so much easier
  65. # [00:23] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.108.173)
  66. # [00:24] <Philip`> hsivonen: (There are many disabled people who aren't blind, so AT improvements on primarily visual content would still help some users)
  67. # [00:24] <hsivonen> Philip`: you are aware of the wiki guide, right?
  68. # [00:25] <Philip`> hsivonen: I'm not, and Google just tells me about a science fiction manga
  69. # [00:25] <Philip`> Oh, is that the Mozilla one?
  70. # [00:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_UA_Best_Practices
  71. # [00:26] <Philip`> "aria-templateid: XXX not sure what to do with this one"
  72. # [00:26] <Philip`> Hmm
  73. # [00:30] * Philip` just sees http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-November/thread.html#7825 about the link fingerprint thing
  74. # [00:31] <Hixie> that's the one
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  76. # [00:34] <Hixie> thanks Philip`
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  80. # [00:36] * Philip` thanks the "Search Mail" button
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  82. # [00:41] * Hixie wonders how strange a validator feature request would have to be before hsivonen would just reject it out of hand
  83. # [00:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: so i'm tempted to ask for support for an equivalent of the #line preprocessor directive...
  84. # [00:41] * Philip` wonders what happens if the target of checksummed link is replaced by an HTML file containing a malicious script followed by enough stuff to make a browser want to incrementally render before it's finished downloading and can check the checksum
  85. # [00:41] <Hixie> (i edit a file that is then concatenated to another one before validation, so the line numbers are all 82 lines off for me)
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  87. # [00:42] <Hixie> crap, gotta go
  88. # [00:42] <Hixie> if people want to check it out, i just regenned the spec with the new algorithm for tables
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  90. # [00:42] <Hixie> bbl
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  92. # [00:44] <csarven> Are there any UAs that support inline pseudo-classes?
  93. # [00:46] <andersca> Hixie: cool
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  125. # [03:34] <dglazkov> ping Hixie
  126. # [03:34] <dglazkov> with a cherry on top
  127. # [03:36] * dglazkov yodels in hopes of attracting attention
  128. # [03:39] <dglazkov> alas
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  160. # [09:17] <gsnedders> There are no bugs, only features.
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  170. # [10:45] * Philip` notices that http://www.robbyslaughter.com/blog/?2008-03-21 , saying "You might have noticed that not all websites work perfectly", does not work in Opera since it renders as white text on a white background
  171. # [10:51] <jruderman_> i wonder why that happens
  172. # [10:52] <Philip`> I'd guess it's to do with style inheritance into tables in quirks mode, which no browsers are particularly consistent on
  173. # [10:56] <hsivonen> Unicode and Math really messed up with &phi;. Not good.
  174. # [10:57] <othermaciej> hsivonen: how so?
  175. # [10:57] <hsivonen> Unicode swapped the glyphs for two code points around.
  176. # [10:58] <hsivonen> then Math swapped the entities around to keep the entity-glyph mapping
  177. # [10:58] <hsivonen> now &phi; means different things in Gecko depending on doctype
  178. # [10:59] <othermaciej> oy vay
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  182. # [11:34] <hsivonen> FYI: http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.tech.mathml/browse_thread/thread/e7f7efbb5e161348/9fde74f46fb0b5d2#9fde74f46fb0b5d2
  183. # [11:36] <othermaciej> not sure if preventing grief for Safari is an argument that will fly :-)
  184. # [11:36] <othermaciej> but that does sound like a good idea
  185. # [11:39] <BenMillard> I read the excessive DTD traffic article a few days ago...found it funny in a tragic sort of way.
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  188. # [12:05] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I'm hoping it works in the "do unto others" sense and with the Mission of the Foundation
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  198. # [13:34] <hsivonen> looks like the TAG issue list has even older items than the WHATWG issue list... http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?view=normal&closed=1&type=1
  199. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - do you keep up with the httpbis list?
  200. # [13:50] * gsnedders sighs at the very mention of that list
  201. # [13:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't.
  202. # [13:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is there something going on there that I should be aware of?
  203. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> not that I know of. was just asking because I've got a bunch of unread messages from that and trying to figure out what threads to read
  204. # [13:52] <hsivonen> I see IDNAbis in the subjects. That can't be good.
  205. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> heh
  206. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> yep
  207. # [13:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: the recent discussion is all idealistic as if compat. with current non-conforming impls is irrelevant
  208. # [13:55] <hsivonen> eek. Are they really contemplating allowing non-ASCII on the HTTP "GET" line?
  209. # [13:56] <gsnedders> I dunno. I gave up reading it.
  210. # [13:56] <gsnedders> :)
  211. # [13:57] <hsivonen> It's one thing to insist on a multitude of human scripts in user-readable prose and to insist on non-ASCII in computer-to-computer messages that are text-based for programmer convenience
  212. # [13:58] <hsivonen> s/and/and another/
  213. # [13:59] * hsivonen thinks people who advocate non-ASCII in programming language variable/method names or XML element/attribute names are misguided
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  215. # [14:43] <hsivonen> hmm. does SVG really have no IDREF or IDREFS attributes?
  216. # [14:49] <hsivonen> do UAs actually implement SVG <use> as a DOM tree clone or as an anonymous layout object tree?
  217. # [14:49] <hsivonen> or something else?
  218. # [14:49] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  219. # [14:50] <hsivonen> "Property inheritance, however, works as if the referenced element had been textually included as a deeply cloned
  220. # [14:50] <hsivonen> child of the 'use' element."
  221. # [14:50] <hsivonen> that sounds really bad
  222. # [14:53] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like the SVG WG has created a need for a hashed ID reference in their spec, as well
  223. # [14:53] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  224. # [14:54] <hsivonen> "‚óŹ local URI references, where the URI reference does not contain an <absoluteURI> or <relativeURI> and
  225. # [14:54] <hsivonen> thus only contains a fragment identifier (i.e., #<elementID> or #xpointer(id<elementID>))
  226. # [14:54] <hsivonen> "
  227. # [14:54] <hsivonen> is the xpointer alternative interoperable?
  228. # [14:55] <hsivonen> also, in compound documents, can are "local" references local to the SVG subtree or to the entire document?
  229. # [15:08] <hsivonen> are cross-document <use> and <tref> supposed to work?
  230. # [15:10] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080311#l-655 is relevant about implementation of SVG <use>
  231. # [15:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah. I'm trying to figure out if I should try to validate it as a mere syntactic IRI or as a hashed ID reference whose referent is actually checked for sanity
  232. # [15:13] <hsivonen> I do agree with othermaciej's assessment
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  242. # [18:31] <met_> Just found thant input.click() in some input types elements doesn't call the onclick handler in Firefox. Strange.
  243. # [18:31] <met_> testcase http://a.met.cz/oreilly/flanagan/
  244. # [18:32] <met_> it ignores type text, password, file, hidden - all textlike input elements
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  251. # [19:45] <a-ja> Hixie: ping (when you're done chatting with Bernd....no hurry or anything)
  252. # [19:53] <Hixie> yo
  253. # [19:54] <a-ja> was working on html5'izing a site other day, & noticed i couldn't get valid dir listing pages on an apache 1.3 server...even using custom header and readme files. prob is that they get a pre with a hr inside.
  254. # [19:55] <a-ja> i presume that was valid html 3.2
  255. # [19:56] <a-ja> can get em to work with apache 2.something options. worth a special case in 5?
  256. # [19:57] <Hixie> nah
  257. # [19:57] <Hixie> those pages don't have an html5 doctype anyway
  258. # [19:57] * a-ja has to get a _real_ hoster :)
  259. # [19:58] <a-ja> not by default they don't anyway
  260. # [19:59] <a-ja> tend to agree......real edge case
  261. # [20:01] <a-ja> 1.3's kind of a dinosaur already (but plenty of em still around, i'd imagine)
  262. # [20:05] <a-ja> on unrelated matter...filed a html5-related moz 1.9 bug the other day you might wanna cc yourself on...which cropped up with the recent parser change
  263. # [20:06] <a-ja> bug 423721 legend child of figure or unknown element should not generate fieldset
  264. # [20:07] <a-ja> feel free to steal /modify the testcase there if you want
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  275. # [21:30] <Philip`> a-ja: About "plenty of em still around": Counting 130K pages from dmoz.org, I see 33K Apache 1.3, 16K of 2.0, 9K of 2.2, 23K unlabelled Apache
  276. # [21:30] <Philip`> so I'd agree there's plenty
  277. # [21:31] <Philip`> (Also I see 22K IIS 6.0, 7K 5.0, negligible other versions)
  278. # [21:31] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  279. # [21:49] <hsivonen> it irks me that the SVG 1.1 and 1.2 Tiny specs don't tell me if they expect <use> and <tref> to work across documents.
  280. # [21:50] <hsivonen> I guess I have to write a test case and find out.
  281. # [21:50] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  282. # [22:00] <hsivonen> findings so far: Cross-doc doesn't work in Firefox, but the impl does URI resolution and isn't just like the hashed ID ref
  283. # [22:01] <hsivonen> SVG still quits Safari on me. Odd
  284. # [22:02] <othermaciej> hsivonen: do you have a specific SVG that does it?
  285. # [22:02] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yes, I have
  286. # [22:03] <hsivonen> Opera appears to implement real cross-doc <use>
  287. # [22:03] <othermaciej> hsivonen: can you file a bug, or mail it to me?
  288. # [22:03] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I've already filed a bug
  289. # [22:03] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I wouldn't be surprised if your <use> impl has bugs
  290. # [22:03] <othermaciej> I freaking hate <use>
  291. # [22:03] <othermaciej> hsivonen: thanks!
  292. # [22:04] <hsivonen> othermaciej: unfortunately, the information I've provided isn't very useful
  293. # [22:04] <othermaciej> hsivonen: if you included the file that crashes, that's useful enough
  294. # [22:05] <hsivonen> oops. I've missed a new comment in the bug
  295. # [22:07] * hsivonen tries to get a backtrace now
  296. # [22:11] <hsivonen> whoa. I have the Adobe Plug-in
  297. # [22:11] <Hixie> http://scripts.indisguise.org/2008/03/22/xhtml-versus-html/
  298. # [22:13] <othermaciej> hsivonen: oh - we'll use ASVG when it's installed
  299. # [22:13] <othermaciej> I think maybe we should stop preferring it without explicit opt-in
  300. # [22:13] <hsivonen> commented: http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17073
  301. # [22:14] <hsivonen> sorry about blaming WebKit. I had no idea I had Adobe residue on the system
  302. # [22:15] <hsivonen> looks like WebKit implement <use xlink:href> as a hashed ID reference
  303. # [22:15] <hsivonen> Firefox does URI-resolution and if it points to a fragment in the same doc, uses the fragment
  304. # [22:16] <hsivonen> Opera actually allows references to different HTTP resources
  305. # [22:16] <hsivonen> yay for interop
  306. # [22:16] <hsivonen> so should Validator.nu allow a full IRI, a full URI or require a hashed ID ref?
  307. # [22:17] <hsivonen> actually, I should rerun the Opera and Firefox tests in case either loaded the Adobe plug-in
  308. # [22:19] <hsivonen> those results hold
  309. # [22:20] <a-ja> Philip`: tks for #'s (was AFK)
  310. # [22:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd love to see some numbers proving an XML parser marginally faster especially in the case that it is reading a DTD (even an abridged local one)
  311. # [22:23] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  312. # [22:24] <othermaciej> I am pretty sure that in WebKit the XML parser is slower than the HTML parser
  313. # [22:24] <othermaciej> at least, I would be very very surprised if this was not true
  314. # [22:26] <weinig> othermaciej: are you claiming that going from UTF-8 to UTF-16 to UTF-8 and back to UTF-16 is slow ;)
  315. # [22:26] <othermaciej> weinig: that's kind of what I am assuming
  316. # [22:27] <othermaciej> (and I hope we can fix it)
  317. # [22:27] <hsivonen> weinig: why do you go once to UTF-8 in between?
  318. # [22:28] <weinig> hsivonen: libxml only operates on UTF-8
  319. # [22:28] <hsivonen> weinig: oh so does your stream decoder always expand to UTF-16 first?
  320. # [22:29] <weinig> hsivonen: yes
  321. # [22:29] <hsivonen> I see.
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  337. # Session Close: Sun Mar 23 00:00:00 2008

The end :)