/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-23 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 23 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:01] <jgraham_> Philip`: I don't think that's a particularly good analogy. It's like having a public meeting any being annoyed if someone records it
# [00:01] <Hixie> actually it's like being annoyed at the google street view van taking a picture of you
# [00:01] <Hixie> which plenty of people are
# [00:02] <Hixie> but they're wrong to be :-)
# [00:02] <jgraham_> The objections make no sense because anyone can be privately logging the channel and no one would be any the wiser
# [00:02] <Hixie> yup, as i've been doing for years now
# [00:02] <jgraham_> If they need to have secret discussions they should do so elsewhere
# [00:02] <Hixie> like #css-secret
# [00:02] <jgraham_> (or make the channel private again)
# [00:03] <Philip`> #css-secret-treehouse
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# [00:06] <Philip`> jgraham_: It's like having a public meeting and being annoyed if someone releases a recording that loses all the subtleties of context so things can get misinterpreted easily, instead of waiting for the official minutes which everyone present can agree are representative of the meeting
# [00:06] <jgraham_> Philip`: Not at all. The only context that's lost is the realtime nature.
# [00:06] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [00:07] <Philip`> jgraham_: That context is often significant
# [00:07] <jgraham_> If you recorded a physical meeting there would be information loss from body language, etc.
# [00:07] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
# [00:07] <jgraham_> (assuming audio onlly recording)
# [00:08] <Philip`> e.g. references to current mailing list activity, or to conversations in other IRC channels, would no longer make sense when taken out of the temporal context
# [00:08] <jgraham_> Philip`: I haven't found it to be a problem with the logged channels
# [00:08] <Philip`> Oh, okay then
# [00:09] <Hixie> i agree that it would be like having a public meeting and being annoyed if someone releases an audio or video recording of it
# [00:09] <Dashiva> People have been taking full advantage of #whatwg being logged, and we aren't objecting, are we?
# [00:09] <Hixie> and i think it's dumb to be scared of that
# [00:09] <Hixie> though many people are
# [00:10] <jgraham_> Dashiva: Quite.
# [00:10] <Dashiva> The ACM put pictures of me playing vocalist on the internet, but they removed the context of what song I'm singing, so I just look silly.
# [00:10] <Hixie> we look silly a lot in the #whatwg archives :-D
# [00:11] <Dashiva> Indeed
# [00:11] <Dashiva> Say Hixie, do you still play lggwg?
# [00:11] <Hixie> haven't for a while
# [00:11] <Hixie> waiting for the next version
# [00:11] <Philip`> Dashiva: We aren't objecting, but maybe we should be, since experience shows that people get upset/annoyed/etc by things in the logs that wouldn't have been a problem if those people were part of the conversation
# [00:12] <Dashiva> Philip`: It's a minor inconvenience compared to the improved communication
# [00:12] <Hixie> Philip`: those people find things to be annoyed at whatever we do
# [00:12] <Hixie> Philip`: we shouldn't optimise for them
# [00:12] * jgraham_ notes that Google suggests lggwg might be a misspelling of "logging"
# [00:13] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
# [00:13] <jgraham_> Philip`: I would be opposed to the logs being removed
# [00:13] <Philip`> I suppose I don't notice how useful the logs are for communication since I'm connected constantly anyway
# [00:13] <Hixie> hah
# [00:13] <jgraham_> they have good cost/value
# [00:13] <Dashiva> Yeah, that sounds likely
# [00:13] <Philip`> (Irssi uptime: 186d 6h 31m 50s, yay)
# [00:13] <Hixie> (hah @ lggwg/logging)
# [00:14] * Joins: mcarter__ (n=mcarter@ip-12-22-56-126.hqglobal.net)
# [00:14] <Hixie> my uptime is 4 days, but only because someone cut through the trondheim powerlines 5 days ago
# [00:14] <Hixie> killed power to half hte city or something
# [00:14] <Hixie> even the traffic lifghts were out
# [00:14] <gavin_> our shell server was rebooted 13 days ago :(
# [00:14] <Hixie> apparently that delayed the repair people from going to fix it
# [00:14] <Hixie> as they were stuck in traffic
# [00:15] <gavin_> (for kernel updates)
# [00:15] * Quits: mcarter_ (n=mcarter@ip-12-22-56-126.hqglobal.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [00:16] <Philip`> (My server is sufficiently old that the recentish Linux root exploit, introduced in 2.6.17, didn't affect it at all, so I didn't have to reboot for that)
# [00:17] <Dashiva> Security through obsoletedness
# [00:17] <Philip`> (Please don't tell me about any other root exploits that are in 2.6.11, because I'll have to ignore you)
# [00:18] <Lachy> it would be good if systems could be updated without restarting ever
# [00:19] <Philip`> What would you do when there's a bug in the live update code?
# [00:19] <Dashiva> Overwrite it in place
# [00:20] <Lachy> start up a new process, kill the live updater, overwrite the live updater, restart the updater, kill the new process from before and cleanup
# [00:21] <Lachy> basically, any individual component should be able to be killed, updated and restarted without restarting the entire system
# [00:21] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [00:21] <Philip`> How do you overwrite the live updater, when the live updater is the thing that overwrites files with their updated versions?
# [00:22] <Philip`> ...and when the live updater is buggy, hence the need to update it
# [00:22] <Philip`> (where 'buggy' means 'doesn't work')
# [00:22] <Dashiva> What if there were two processes, one kickstarting the other to overwrite itself and then restart it?
# [00:22] <Lachy> I already answered that. You start a seperate updater program specifically for updating the main live updater
# [00:22] <jgraham_> You download new code that implements a new live updater and uses it to replace to old live updater with itself
# [00:23] <Philip`> If you split things into restartable components, how do you make a component restart without losing all the data contained within that component?
# [00:23] <Lachy> Philip`, magic
# [00:23] <Philip`> (particularly if e.g. its internal data structures have been redesigned)
# [00:23] <Hixie> back in the old days, there were computers that could have their motherboards updated without rebooting
# [00:24] <Philip`> Lachy: Magic is merely sufficiently advanced technology, so you should still be able to explain it :-p
# [00:24] <Hixie> Philip`: that's not what clarke said!
# [00:24] <hsivonen> Philip`: IBM mainframe programmers don't write bugs
# [00:25] <jgraham_> I was under the general impression that lisp proponents cited the ability to update running code in place as one of the big lisp advantages
# [00:25] <Philip`> Hixie: You can still do that in modern computers, if you have sufficient money
# [00:25] <Hixie> Philip`: he didn't say magic was technology, he said sufficiently advanced technology was indistinguishable from magic
# [00:25] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, haven't heard of it recently though
# [00:25] <Lachy> Philip`, there are live update programs that update themselves already. that particular problem is already solved
# [00:25] <Philip`> Hixie: If two things are indistinguishable, you might as well say they're the same thing
# [00:26] <Hixie> Philip`: they could be indistinguishable because of insufficient precision in the measuring instrument
# [00:26] <Lachy> e.g. the Apple Software Updater and Norton Anti-virus Live Update
# [00:26] <Hixie> all updaters pretty much support that
# [00:27] <Philip`> I have a C++ wxWidgets GUI application which was kind of painful to compile/link/run/test, so I've rewritten lots of the GUI stuff into JS, and it automatically reloads the code at runtime when you change it, which is really a much nicer way of developing GUI applications
# [00:27] <hsivonen> even Validator.nu build.py now selfupdates and execs its new self over its old self
# [00:28] <Philip`> but that just throws away all the GUI state when it reloads, which is sometimes a bit of a pain
# [00:28] <Lachy> Philip`, remembering previous states from before the update is also a solved problem
# [00:28] <Hixie> bbl
# [00:29] <Philip`> Lachy: Not when the data structures storing the state have changed incompatibly
# [00:29] <Lachy> Just record sufficient information to disk before closing, and when restarting the updated app, run a conversion program to convert the older data to a new format if necessary and reload
# [00:29] <Lachy> Philip`, changes can be made incrementally to avoid having to throw it all away and start again
# [00:31] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-217-60.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
# [00:32] <Philip`> For an OS kernel, it's hard enough to make suspend-to-RAM work reliably, so I don't hold out much hope for being able to suspend and then rewrite all the data into a new format and then resume a new kernel version :-(
# [00:33] <Philip`> (Hmm, lots of bugs - I shouldn't have left my window open)
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# [00:34] <Philip`> (I hate things that fly at me in bed :-( )
# [00:34] <Dashiva> Make sure you make testcases for each one
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# [00:36] <Lachy> Philip`, the kernel would be written by an infallible intelliegent designer so that it is perfect just the way it is. It never needs updating!
# [00:36] <Philip`> I should employ one, and then I can say it WORKSFORME
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# [00:38] <Dashiva> Lachy: That's why intelligent sort is so awesome
# [00:39] <Lachy> what's intelligent sort?
# [00:39] <Lachy> is that like quick sort?
# [00:39] <Philip`> Is it like bogosort?
# [00:40] <Philip`> The easy way to sort a list of integers is to redefine the order relation so that all integers are equivalent and therefore all lists of integers are already sorted
# [00:43] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
# [00:45] <Lachy> Quantum Bogosort is better
# [00:47] <Dashiva> Lachy: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/intelligentdesignsort.html
# [00:49] <Lachy> Dashiva, you are Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed in here! ;-)
# [00:50] <Lachy> intelligent sort breaks the 2nd law of bogodynamics!
# [00:50] <Philip`> The problem with the theory of sorting is that it contradicts the second law of thermodynamics - an ordered list has lower entropy than an unordered list, and scientists all agree that the laws of thermodynamics are inviolable, so clearly it is not possible to sort a list
# [00:50] <Dashiva> Philip`: It only seems violated to our imperfect minds
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# [00:58] <Lachy> Dashiva, intelligent sort would mean that it's impossible to ever generate a random number, since the intelligent sorter is always sorting. So the next number in sequence is always predetermined, even if we primitive humans fail to understand how
# [00:59] <annevk> Hixie, I'm still somewhat confused with the process / technical distinction and get flamed enough as it is...
# [01:01] <Dashiva> Lachy: Wonderful, isn't it?
# [01:02] <Lachy> Dashiva, indeed.
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# [01:05] * Lachy goes to join the church of numerology and spread the mathematics of the divine academic
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# [01:07] <Dashiva> Al'Gebra
# [01:07] <Philip`> Lachy: I don't think numerology has much to do with maths
# [01:07] <Philip`> Dashiva: Is he a relation of Al-Khwārizmī?
# [01:10] <Lachy> Philip`, numerology: "The study of the occult meanings of numbers and their supposed influence on human life." - Just because we don't understand the mathematics of the divine, doesn't mean he isn't using maths to control our lives
# [01:11] <roc> you must have taken physics --- you know he's using maths to control our lives
# [01:11] <Philip`> Lachy: Fair enough
# [01:13] <Lachy> roc, quantum physics is the work of the devil! You know he's just messing with you whenever you get close to figuring anything out :-)
# [01:13] <Philip`> roc: Physics only taught me maths that was a horribly crude approximation of reality, and seemed to be hacked together just to match our observations, so I can't tell what really controls our lives
# [01:14] <roc> God loves physicists, and he wanted to give them something to do in the 20th century
# [01:16] <roc> I have to say that physics seems a lot more elegant than, say, the Web
# [01:17] <annevk> maybe in 500 years the Web will seem logical too
# [01:18] <Philip`> Many compost heaps seem more elegant than the Web
# [01:18] <roc> if I try to think about the accumulated cruft of the Web in 500 years, I think I will pass out
# [01:19] <Dashiva> Don't worry, the oil crash will make sure that doesn't happen
# [01:22] <Philip`> Someone will build something that runs on top of the web, but doesn't depend on the web, and then it will become really popular, and nobody will care about the web since it's an implementation detail behind a layer of abstraction, and then the web can be replaced by a new cleaner more appropriate system
# [01:22] <Lachy> given the exponential growth of the web in the last 15 years, which is likely to continue, I wonder if it could ever surpass the limits of a ZFS file system (if that in itself didn't require boiling the oceans)
# [01:23] <Philip`> (See e.g. the internet on top of the old voice phone system, where now nobody cares about the phone system and it's all replaced with high-bandwidth fibre optics and IP)
# [01:23] <Lachy> in fact, I wonder what the physical limit of the web's capacity will be
# [01:24] <annevk> we hit a limit with IP
# [01:24] <Philip`> Lachy: What do you mean by "the web's capacity"?
# [01:24] <annevk> but that's being resolved in some way
# [01:24] <Lachy> there's only so much data that could ever be stored in any possible storate system, given the limits of quantum mechanics
# [01:25] <Philip`> I can make a site that serves a billion files that are each a gigabyte, but that isn't increasing capacity in any useful way
# [01:25] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah http://pastebin.ca/992541 is a good start, thanks
# [01:26] * annevk saves the text in a file somewhere
# [01:26] <Lachy> Philip`, yeah, I'm only considering data that is actually stored and not generated on the fly
# [01:27] <Lachy> but I suppose, the universe is big enough such that the limit won't be reached before human civilisation dies out
# [01:27] <Philip`> Lachy: So you could measure its upper bound as the combined storage space used by all devices connected to the internet? That sounds kind of reasonble
# [01:27] <Philip`> s//a/
# [01:28] <Lachy> yes
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# [01:29] <Philip`> Lachy: You may be underestimating exponential growth
# [01:30] <Hixie> annevk: i just recommend always starting threads publicly :-)
# [01:31] <Philip`> Search engines index about 10^10 pages, and if that doubles every year then in 236 years you'll get 10^80 pages, which is about the number of atoms in the universe
# [01:31] <Dashiva> But how many of those 10^10 are generated?
# [01:31] <Philip`> and civilisation might survive that long
# [01:31] <Lachy> But the IPv4 address range will run out in a few years, and the web will either level off or die out soon after
# [01:32] <annevk> Hixie, fair enough
# [01:32] <Philip`> Dashiva: Search engines cache those pages, so even if they were generated once then they're statically served now
# [01:32] <Dashiva> Does google index e.g. live search?
# [01:33] <annevk> Lachy, if that happens and IPv6 doesn't work we should start working on IPv5 :)
# [01:33] <Dashiva> Recursion! :D
# [01:33] <Lachy> annevk, ipv6 has already failed
# [01:33] <Hixie> ipv6 hasn't failed as much as you might think
# [01:33] <Philip`> Dashiva: archive.org says it has 10^11 pages already, and they're actually stored somewhere
# [01:34] <Lachy> For it to succeed, ISPs should have been distributing IPv4 and IPv6 addresses to subscribers for the past 10 years
# [01:34] <Hixie> e.g. comcast is deploying it internally and most of their set top boxes use it exclusively, because they've run out of IP addresses already for their customers
# [01:34] <Hixie> ipv6 can be used without end-users seeing it
# [01:34] <Philip`> but a few orders of magnitude aren't important, when we're multiplying it by 2^236
# [01:35] <Lachy> does http://ipv6.google.com/ work for anyone here? (I'm assuming it'll work for Hixie)
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# [01:36] <Lachy> it doesnt work for me, so my ISP isn't supporting IPv6 at all
# [01:38] <annevk> I hope IPv6 does have some kind of extension mechanism so we never hit some wall again...
# [01:39] <Philip`> We'll hit plenty of scalability walls before running out of IPv6 addresses
# [01:40] <Philip`> largely in things that are nothing to do with IP
# [01:40] <Lachy> annevk, ipv6 won't need it. It's 128 bit address space is large enough to last for billions of years
# [01:40] <Lachy> 3.4×10^38 addresses
# [01:40] <annevk> We never know what kind of thing needs an IP going forward...
# [01:40] <Hixie> the problem isn't the number of addresses
# [01:41] <Hixie> it's the way they are given out
# [01:41] <Philip`> Lachy: Not really, since you can't just pick the next unused number and give it to somebody
# [01:41] <Hixie> e.g. with ipv6, isps can and probably will give out 1000 IPs to their users
# [01:41] <Philip`> since it has to be split up hierarchically
# [01:41] <Philip`> Uh, like what Hixie's saying
# [01:41] <Lachy> Philip`, yeah, I know, but ipv6 has better allocation strategy than ipv4
# [01:42] <Hixie> that's possible
# [01:42] <Hixie> i'm just saying it's not a matter of numbers
# [01:43] <Philip`> There seems to have been some concern in the internet routing world in the past few years, because autonomous networks get a unique 16-bit ID, and they're running out of numbers
# [01:43] <Philip`> and they don't have a nice way of transitioning to an updated version of the protocol
# [01:44] <Philip`> but at least there's 2^16 fewer people involved than with IP
# [01:44] <Hixie> 16 bits isn't much for that kind of thing
# [01:44] <Hixie> wow
# [01:46] <Philip`> http://bgp.potaroo.net/cidr/autnums.html
# [01:46] <Philip`> Each number is usually a fairly big organisation
# [01:46] <Hixie> woot AS15169
# [01:46] <Philip`> but the world has too many fairly big organisations
# [01:47] <Philip`> AS36561 too
# [01:47] <Lachy> Philip`, that site won't load for me
# [01:47] <Hixie> damn microsoft has a ton of these
# [01:48] <Hixie> AS6432 too
# [01:48] <Hixie> hehe
# [01:48] <Philip`> Google has at least 9
# [01:48] <Hixie> oh?
# [01:48] <Philip`> On that page, search for "google" :-p
# [01:49] <Lachy> hmm. weird. It will load in Safari, but in Firefox it just gives up
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# [01:49] <roc> these are not fairly big organizations
# [01:50] <roc> they are every man and his dog
# [01:50] <Hixie> Philip`: oh i guess the page hadn't loaded yet
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# [01:52] <Lachy> I don't understand what those numbers are representing
# [01:52] <Philip`> roc: At least they're fairly big compared to individual IP address users
# [01:52] <Philip`> and I say anything larger than me is big
# [01:53] <roc> how big is this page?
# [01:54] <roc> ah finished
# [01:54] <Hixie> less than 64k lines, i guess
# [01:54] <Philip`> Lachy: They're the numbers used to identify nodes in the routing graph of the internet
# [01:55] <Philip`> Lachy: (where each node is actually a whole network, usually administered by a single entity)
# [01:55] <roc> it's at least 128K lines, there's all these AS1.xxxx numbers plus some random other stuff at the end
# [01:58] <Hixie> roc: ah
# [01:59] <Philip`> ASxxxx.xxxx is from the new 32-bit extension, but I have no idea how widely deployed or usable it is yet
# [01:59] <Philip`> Someone should place bets on which fixed-size integer field in an internet protocol is going to run out of space next
# [02:00] <Hixie> oh hey, i finally got that e-mail to which i received a reply two hours ago
# [02:00] <Hixie> (al's e-mail about alt="")
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# [02:56] <Hixie> woah
# [02:56] <Hixie> this e-mail suggests adding elements for all the following:
# [02:56] <Hixie> verbs, proper nouns, words that score over 30 in Scrabble, palindromes, words that can be written upside-down on calculators, words defined in the Oxford English Dictionary
# [02:56] <Hixie> (ok so it's being sarcastic. but still.)
# [02:57] <Philip`> Hixie: It would have been clearer that it was sarcastic if you hadn't rejected the <sarcasm> element
# [02:58] <Hixie> -_-
# [02:59] <Hixie> i still love the question i got from the xhtml2 camp when i gave my talk at xtech in 2004
# [02:59] <Hixie> (or 2005?)
# [02:59] <Hixie> 2005 i think
# [02:59] <Hixie> after explaining how we were doing things in the open, etc
# [02:59] <Hixie> they were like "well, how are you going to handle people who ask for an <irony> element???"
# [03:00] <Hixie> apparently the concept of just saying "no" to requests hadn't come up before
# [03:00] <Dashimon> Hixie: Maybe they were being ironic
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# [03:01] <Hixie> maybe
# [03:01] <Philip`> Hixie: If you keep saying no to requests, you'll work yourself out of a job since there won't be any unrejected requests left to work on
# [03:02] <Hixie> same happens if i say yes: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html
# [03:03] <Philip`> Either you have been processing issues very chaotically and travelling backwards and forwards in time, or Opera 9.2 has canvas bugs
# [03:04] <Dashimon> I'm seeing two green lines in 9.2
# [03:04] <Philip`> Hopefully at some point people will start writing test cases, and finding lots of issues in the spec, so the line will start shooting up again
# [03:05] <Dashimon> 9.5 gets the green line right, but only shows blue for the very latest week
# [03:05] <Philip`> That's because the blue data only exists for the last week
# [03:07] <Dashimon> How non-buggish
# [03:08] <Hixie> heh
# [03:09] <Hixie> if anyone wants to go back and pull every version of the spec back to last september and count the number of XXX/big-issue markers over time, be my guest :-D
# [03:09] <Dashimon> I'm sure Philip` is already doing it
# [03:10] <Hixie> on the extreme off-chance that some crazy person wants to do this, the times and dates for which i have green dots are the times and dates in this file: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.csv
# [03:10] <Philip`> I think I'll go to bed instead :-p
# [03:10] <Hixie> :-)
# [03:11] <Philip`> (Does XXXX count as one?)
# [03:11] <Philip`> (Not that I really care since I'm not going to do anything with this)
# [03:12] <Hixie> my algorithm is: ... @issues = $spec =~ m/(XXX|big-issue)/gos; return scalar @issues;
# [03:12] * Dashimon hides from the perl
# [03:12] <Hixie> also, if you did want to do this, but not do it for every day, the script already supports just having data for a few random days
# [03:12] <Philip`> <p class=big-issue>Big Issue! Get yer Big Issue here!</p>
# [03:12] <Hixie> it'll just draw the line straight across any points its missing
# [03:12] * takkaria chuckles
# [03:12] <Hixie> it's
# [03:14] * Philip` once saw someone trying to sell the Big Issue by saying "spare a shekel for an old ex-leper" repeatedly
# [03:15] <Philip`> (I'm not sure how successful that strategy was)
# [03:17] <Dashimon> Hixie: So if it were to be done (which it won't) it would only be worthwhile to check points that have email data?
# [03:18] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-880b3d7d0e932ba9)
# [03:18] <Philip`> Hixie: When Dashimon implements this, what should happen on days that have multiple commits and multiple distinct XXX counts?
# [03:19] * Dashimon is now known as Dashiva
# [03:19] <Philip`> s/Dashimon/Dashiva/
# [03:19] <Dashiva> I figured I would simply (except I won't) take the commit closest to thet email ts
# [03:20] <Hixie> Dashiva: well, if we get more data out of this than the precision of the green line, i'll have to rewrite the script that generates the graph to handle missing green dots too
# [03:20] <Hixie> Dashiva: which would be work for me :-)
# [03:20] <Hixie> Philip`: the .csv file has exact timestamps
# [03:20] <Hixie> Philip`: so there's no ambiguity
# [03:20] <Philip`> Ah
# [03:20] <Dashiva> Man, we have it all figured out, too bad we aren't going to do it
# [03:23] <Hixie> indeed
# [03:23] <Hixie> how about if i give 15 points to someone for doing it
# [03:23] <Dashiva> Nooo
# [03:24] <Dashiva> I'm secretly going to do it in secret without telling anyone in a few days, but now it'll seem it was for the points
# [03:24] <Hixie> lol
# [03:24] * Hixie makes a note to secretely not do any work in a few days since his server is going to be crushed by the load of 1000+ checkouts
# [03:25] <takkaria> secretly doing it in secret without telling anyone seems like a lot of secrecy for one person to maintain. :)
# [03:25] <Dashiva> How did you know I was going to do a new checkout for each timestamp?
# [03:25] <Hixie> Dashiva: how else would you do it?
# [03:26] <takkaria> svn update to a given time would be more efficient
# [03:26] <Hixie> on your side maybe :-P
# [03:26] <Hixie> svn update requires the server to do a diff :-P
# [03:26] * takkaria grins
# [03:27] * Hixie makes a note to increase his RAM allocation for a bit
# [03:27] <Philip`> Use svnsync to make a local copy of the repository, then do checkouts on that
# [03:27] <Hixie> heh
# [03:28] <takkaria> even better, Hixie should just tarball up the repo and put it online briefly
# [03:28] <Hixie> not sure how to do that
# [03:28] <Dashiva> I recould reverse the commit timeline using the archive of commit-watchers
# [03:28] <Hixie> heh
# [03:28] <Hixie> i guess you could!