/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 22 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [09:16] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  4. # [09:16] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  5. # [09:16] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  6. # [09:16] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
  7. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> yay, krijnh is back
  8. # [09:25] <krijnh> Yay :)
  9. # [09:25] <krijnh> Sorry for being down
  10. # [09:25] <krijnh> Are the logs reachable from the outside?
  11. # [09:34] * Disconnected
  12. # [09:34] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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  14. # [09:34] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  15. # [09:34] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
  16. # [09:34] <krijnh> Grr
  17. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> annevk, krijnh: I have incomplete logs from last few days
  18. # [09:35] <krijnh> MikeSmith: can you mail them to me?
  19. # [09:36] * krijnh hopes they're in the same format
  20. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> krijnh: OK, but I reckon probably Hixie or another screen user has more complete ones
  21. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> anyway, will send you what I have for now
  22. # [09:36] <krijnh> My connection is pretty shitty btw.. I think I'll disconnect a lot today
  23. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> krijnh: can I send you the complete logs and let you figure out which parts are needed? my logs are cumulative XChat logs
  24. # [09:38] <krijnh> Depends on the format
  25. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> e.g., whatwg one is 8.1MB
  26. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> or I can just post them at URL for you to download
  27. # [09:38] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  28. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> xchat format
  29. # [09:39] <krijnh> No idea what that is ;)
  30. # [09:39] <krijnh> You can also ftp it to me
  31. # [09:40] <krijnh> User: up / Pass: load
  32. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> krijnh: example of format:
  33. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> May 22 16:36:08 <krijnh> No idea what that is ;)
  34. # [09:40] <krijnh> One moment, I'll see how that's handled
  35. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> will ftp them to you
  36. # [09:41] <krijnh> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080520
  37. # [09:42] <krijnh> Probably acceptable :)
  38. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> [[
  39. # [09:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: i agree with raman and would go even further and require that the <input> element be used to make checkboxes, so... i don't plan to reply to the e-mail in question
  40. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> mput 01_freenode-#whatwg.log? y
  41. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> 421 Service not available, remote server has closed connection
  42. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> ]]
  43. # [09:43] <krijnh> Huh
  44. # [09:44] <krijnh> Shitty connection, shitty ftp software, sorry :)
  45. # [09:44] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.103.211)
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  47. # [09:44] <annevk> I didn't quite get raman, the <span> example is quite different from the <input> one
  48. # [09:44] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-33-67.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  49. # [09:45] <annevk> The <input> one represents a control where the <span> example represents something that fakes a control to AT
  50. # [09:45] <krijnh> MikeSmith: mail then?
  51. # [09:46] * krijnh is now known as krijn
  52. # [09:50] * Joins: deane (n=dean@121.98.128.155)
  53. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> krijn: http://people.w3.org/mike/logs/
  54. # [09:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: I agree that <input type=checkbox> is preferable. ARIA just seems necessary considering what people out there do (including GWT it seems)
  55. # [09:51] <Hixie> annevk: (re xhr/ac) ah. i recommend just making a decision and replying to the e-mail -- not replying leaves people without the ability to help you since we don't know that you're stuck :-)
  56. # [09:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: what on that list (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008May/0087.html) isn't architectural?
  57. # [09:52] <othermaciej> Hixie: " The use of imperative definitions rather than abstract definitions with the requirement of black-box equivalence in implementations"
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  61. # [09:52] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  62. # [09:52] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
  63. # [09:52] * Quits: deane (n=dean@121.98.128.155) (Remote closed the connection)
  64. # [09:53] <Hixie> othermaciej: ah, yeah, i figured i should include that since it seems like the kind of thing the tag would complain about
  65. # [09:53] <annevk> i replied to raman
  66. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: as I understand it, people want to make checkboxes that look like they want and they don't like the way the native ones look
  67. # [09:53] <othermaciej> Hixie: ok I will grant they may mistake it for architecture
  68. # [09:53] * Quits: krijn (n=krijnhoe@ktk.xs4all.nl) (Nick collision from services.)
  69. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: and they want to do it in a way that doesn't require all browser vendors to participate for the solution to work
  70. # [09:54] * krijnh is now known as krijn
  71. # [09:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's pretty ironic that with ARIA, the top 4 vendors *are* participating all of a sudden
  72. # [09:54] <Hixie> othermaciej: my goal here is to preclude the tag from coming back in 2 years and telling us we have to do X and that it's ok that they are sending the feedback late because we didn't ask for feedback earlier (as they recently did with aria)
  73. # [09:55] <annevk> othermaciej, the TAG has in fact given comments on imperative definitions to quite some extent on the Access Control specification
  74. # [09:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: seems to me the assumptions underlying the ARIA work have been invalidated
  75. # [09:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: so better CSS and XBL2 don't fit the requirements
  76. # [09:55] <annevk> othermaciej, it went so far that one of them started drafting text for doing it in a different way
  77. # [10:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: actually, it may be that all browser vendors participated precisely because ARIA was set up in such a way that no vendor could block it by not participating
  78. # [10:13] <Hixie> annevk: i hope they try to do that with the "navigate" algorithm
  79. # [10:13] <othermaciej> annevk: the TAG seems to be a force of randomness
  80. # [10:13] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-166-106.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  81. # [10:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: maybe
  82. # [10:13] <annevk> implementation ARIA is much more trivial than finding a solution for customizing form controls
  83. # [10:13] * Joins: deane (n=dean@121.98.128.155)
  84. # [10:13] <annevk> And also more short term as authors can use it directly without having to worry about legacy
  85. # [10:13] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  86. # [10:13] <Hixie> i can't wait for people to start using aria on pages that don't need it
  87. # [10:13] <annevk> To be clear, I agree that it's far from optimal. At this point it just seems sort of convenient for everyone...
  88. # [10:13] <othermaciej> I feel like for every part of ARIA we implement, we have to tithe by adding appropriate equivalent HTML5 functionality and/or needed additional form control stylability
  89. # [10:13] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
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  91. # [10:13] <othermaciej> but I think even with the right high-level semantic elements, a low-level accessibility feature like ARIA makes sense
  92. # [10:13] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  93. # [10:13] <annevk> Hixie, so I think AC is good as is, apart from the warning for IIS servers which I will add today
  94. # [10:13] <othermaciej> back shortly
  95. # [10:13] <Hixie> annevk: cool
  96. # [10:13] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.103.211)
  97. # [10:13] <annevk> Hixie, XHR2 has some of the issues XHR1 has which makes it more problematic
  98. # [10:13] <Hixie> annevk: solve the xhr1 issues. :-)
  99. # [10:13] <annevk> I initially thought we needed the method/header whitelist from the server but Bjoern convinced me that Jonas didn't make sense...
  100. # [10:13] <annevk> Hixie, indeed :)
  101. # [10:13] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
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  103. # [10:22] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-a822beb016d57e30)
  104. # [10:22] <hsivonen> can anyone think of notable legacy HTML attributes that aren't conforming in either of HTML 4.01 Transitional or HTML5?
  105. # [10:22] <Hixie> hsivonen: <marquee speed>
  106. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
  107. # [10:22] <Hixie> actually that's not a valid attribute
  108. # [10:22] <Hixie> wikipedia says <marquee scrolldelay>
  109. # [10:22] * hsivonen tries to find Philip`'s marquee stats
  110. # [10:22] <Hixie> <img lowsrc> probably was never valid either
  111. # [10:22] <Lachy__> hsivonen, <table height>
  112. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Lachy__: height is a conforming name in other contexts
  113. # [10:22] <hsivonen> I'm looking for unique strings
  114. # [10:22] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  115. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah, I need to add lowsrc
  116. # [10:22] <Hixie> what's this for?
  117. # [10:22] <Hixie> if it's for ui, you probably just should look at common attribute names in stats
  118. # [10:22] <Hixie> i expect <Script languaje=""> is used more than <img lowsrc>
  119. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: for efficient magic handling of attribute names
  120. # [10:22] <hsivonen> in the parser
  121. # [10:22] <annevk> http://www.eskimo.com/~bloo/indexdot/html/tagpages/attributes/data.htm
  122. # [10:22] <annevk> http://www.eskimo.com/~bloo/indexdot/html/tagpages/attributes/editing.htm
  123. # [10:22] <Hixie> given the effort you're expending on optimisation work, i expect your parser to be able to parse the html5 spec in milliseconds :-P
  124. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: so far benchmarking suggests that having magic knowledge of element names was a win
  125. # [10:22] <annevk> onbounce, onfinish, etc.
  126. # [10:23] <annevk> from http://www.eskimo.com/~bloo/indexdot/html/tagpages/attributes/events.htm
  127. # [10:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: I need this code for some attributes anyway in order not to make the common cases suck
  128. # [10:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: once the code is there, I might as well put less common cases on the fast track, too
  129. # [10:23] <Hixie> cool
  130. # [10:24] <annevk> Hixie, add <ruby> support if you don't want to do parsing :)
  131. # [10:25] <Hixie> <ruby> support is going to be a pain because the css side doesn't support what i need
  132. # [10:26] <Hixie> iirc
  133. # [10:26] <Hixie> either that or i couldn't work out how to do IE compat on parsing, or something
  134. # [10:26] <Hixie> there was some complication
  135. # [10:27] <hsivonen> but doing this attribute work in a way that isn't very naïve is surprisingly tedious
  136. # [10:27] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  137. # [10:27] <hsivonen> I think I'm going to suspend this task in order to avoid starving higher-layer conformance checking work
  138. # [10:28] <annevk> Hixie, I thought it was the parsing and that you decided an approximation would be enough
  139. # [10:28] <Hixie> probably
  140. # [10:29] <Hixie> ruby is on my list
  141. # [10:29] <krijn> MikeSmith: downloaded your logs, will put them online today
  142. # [10:30] <Hixie> it's about half way down my priority list, whether i sort by number of e-mails, number of e-mails per thread, age of feedback, or whatever
  143. # [10:31] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  147. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> krijn: OK
  148. # [10:33] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks for the bloo links. is anyone actually using the IE4 dataformatas stuff?
  149. # [10:33] <krijn> And still 855 mails behind on public-html :/
  150. # [10:34] <hsivonen> I hope we could go back in time and make SVG use hyphens instead of camelCase
  151. # [10:36] <hsivonen> getting attributes right is such a mess
  152. # [10:36] <hsivonen> and most of the mess is due to Namespaces and xml:lang
  153. # [10:36] <hsivonen> compared to those, the camelCase fixup is a lesser mess
  154. # [10:36] <roc_> hmm
  155. # [10:37] <roc_> SVG *does* use hyphens
  156. # [10:37] * roc_ is now known as roc
  157. # [10:37] <roc> I guess it uses both :-(
  158. # [10:37] <hsivonen> roc: SVG uses many things
  159. # [10:37] <Hixie> SVG is as bad as HTML
  160. # [10:37] <hsivonen> roc: the hyphen is benign
  161. # [10:37] <Hixie> it uses runtogether, camelCase, hyphen-ated, and mixtures of those
  162. # [10:37] <roc> I actually prefer camelCase
  163. # [10:37] <hsivonen> xlink:foo and the camelCase suck really badly for me
  164. # [10:38] <Hixie> oh and with:namespace, too
  165. # [10:38] <hsivonen> I mean if I end up writing lot of corner case code *anyway* I think I should make it performant, too.
  166. # [10:38] <Hixie> html at least has the defence of having been designed by many people
  167. # [10:38] <Hixie> svg is inconsistent for no good reason
  168. # [10:38] <hsivonen> but then there are so many situations that need different handling
  169. # [10:38] <hsivonen> aargh
  170. # [10:39] <hsivonen> I've decided I'm going to drop some marginal elegance and correctness
  171. # [10:39] <roc> hyphens in names need to be mangled when you convert them to DOM attribute names etc
  172. # [10:39] <hsivonen> roc: good point. But *my* code doesn't deal with that. :-)
  173. # [10:40] <Hixie> html is case-insensitive, so anything with uppercase letters becomes a mess
  174. # [10:40] <annevk> hsivonen, dunno
  175. # [10:40] <annevk> Hixie, SVG is designed by many people too I think :(
  176. # [10:41] <Hixie> yeah but they're in one wg, so that's no excuse
  177. # [10:41] <roc> yeah, not so much
  178. # [10:41] <annevk> Hixie, hmm, maybe Policy-Path is a bigger issue, do you think it would still be worth it if it was only for the entire domain?
  179. # [10:42] <Hixie> probably not
  180. # [10:43] <hsivonen> so we have: 1) plain attribute foo, 2) camelCase in no namespace fooBar, 3) legacy colons: xlink:href, 4) lang vs. xml:lang, 5) default namespace talisman: xmlns, 6) XLink talisman xmlns:xlink, 7) other prefix cruft: xmlns:foo, 8) the id attribute
  181. # [10:43] <hsivonen> that's pretty insane
  182. # [10:43] <hsivonen> and then some of those have contextual XML mappability constraints
  183. # [10:43] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acah173.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  184. # [10:44] <hsivonen> I think the count goes up to at least 11 different situations
  185. # [10:45] <hsivonen> and only 3 of them aren't the fault of Namespaces
  186. # [10:46] <Hixie> so i have an e-mail here saying that GBK should be treated like GB2312
  187. # [10:46] <hsivonen> every time I write code that touches this area, I can't but think that Namespaces was a huge mistake
  188. # [10:46] <Hixie> but wikipedia says GBK is a superset of 2312
  189. # [10:46] <Hixie> *confused*
  190. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: GB2312 should be treated as GBK
  191. # [10:46] <Hixie> ok that makes more sense
  192. # [10:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: Gecko does something a bit weirder which amounts to that as a black box and WebKit simply aliases it, IIRC
  193. # [10:47] <gsnedders> hsivonen: yeah, that's right
  194. # [10:48] <Hixie> i wonder how to test if euc-kr and win-949 are being treated the same
  195. # [10:48] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-a822beb016d57e30) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  196. # [10:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm so glad you didn't add xml:id to the fixups
  197. # [10:49] <Hixie> that was intentional
  198. # [10:49] <hsivonen> it would raised the case count from 11 to 13
  199. # [10:49] <hsivonen> oops. 14 actually
  200. # [10:49] <krijn> hsivonen: is there a way to use validator.nu on a page with http authentication?
  201. # [10:50] <hsivonen> krijn: not directly.
  202. # [10:50] <krijn> Tried putting in the uri, but that's deprecated :)
  203. # [10:50] <hsivonen> krijn: but you can retrieve the bytes and the HTTP header yourself and POST it to V.nu
  204. # [10:51] <Philip`> hsivonen: If this is just for performance, why do you care about specified / legacy attributes rather than about the most commonly used attributes?
  205. # [10:51] <hsivonen> I don't want to ask people to send credentials to my server
  206. # [10:51] <krijn> hsivonen: I understand
  207. # [10:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: you are right. I should also care about the most commonly used
  208. # [10:52] <Philip`> hsivonen: Why "also", rather than "only"?
  209. # [10:53] <annevk> so access control could help with validating authenticated sites (though you'd still be sharing data with henri one way or another)
  210. # [10:53] <hsivonen> Philip`: theory, I guess
  211. # [10:54] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://www.dia.wa.gov.au/ has a dataformatas attribute (though it doesn't seem to be used correctly or usefully)
  212. # [10:55] * Quits: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  213. # [10:56] <Philip`> hsivonen: I could get a list of the most commonly used attribute names, if that'd be useful
  214. # [10:56] <hsivonen> Philip`: it would be useful, yes
  215. # [10:56] <Philip`> (http://www.oyak.com.tr/ uses a dataformatas too)
  216. # [10:59] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  217. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: making xmlns talismans allowed contextually adds to the attribute craziness pain
  218. # [11:01] <Hixie> i imagine
  219. # [11:04] <annevk> actually, Hixie, how is Policy-Path vulnerable in the cases Jonas and Bjoern mention?
  220. # [11:04] <hsivonen> Namespaces is such a white elephant
  221. # [11:05] <annevk> I don't quite get it, because it requires value equivalence it should be more safe
  222. # [11:05] <hsivonen> makes things harder for authors to grok and makes thing harder to implement
  223. # [11:05] <Hixie> annevk: if you OPTIONS http://example.com/foo/ and it says that there is a policy-path for all of /foo/
  224. # [11:06] <Hixie> annevk: and you then do a POST to http://example.com/foo/bar and due to a misconfiguration on the server that is treated as equivalent to http://example.com/baz
  225. # [11:06] <annevk> oh right, it's about the requests after that, never mind :(
  226. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm so glad you aren't trying to emulate the AVNormalize stuff
  227. # [11:07] <Hixie> annevk: of course you could similarly argue that HTTP in general is a security risk because what happens if when you do a GET to http://example.com/test, the server, being misconfigured, instead does an rm -rf of all the data in the directory for example.org which happens to be hosted on the same virtual host
  228. # [11:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: ?
  229. # [11:07] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  230. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: making the attribute *value* change contextually, too
  231. # [11:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: o_O
  232. # [11:08] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  233. # [11:08] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  234. # [11:08] * hsivonen referst to XML spec fragment ids: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#AVNormalize
  235. # [11:08] <annevk> true
  236. # [11:08] <annevk> grmbl
  237. # [11:08] <annevk> i don't like having to resolve these issues as i don't really know the right answer
  238. # [11:09] <Hixie> well someone has to resolve them :-)
  239. # [11:09] * Hixie has this problem all the time with html5
  240. # [11:09] <Hixie> hsivonen: oh, attribute value normalisation
  241. # [11:09] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, screw that, who cares :-)
  242. # [11:10] <Hixie> annevk: in practice if you make the wrong choice, someone tells you, and you change it
  243. # [11:10] <Hixie> annevk: it's pretty simple :-)
  244. # [11:11] <annevk> well, if only one person speaks up, such as Julian, it's more tricky, because i often disagree with him :)
  245. # [11:11] <annevk> but the XHR issues are more trivial anyway
  246. # [11:11] <annevk> except for dealing with him
  247. # [11:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: Is it more useful to know the number of pages each attribute appears on, or the total number of times the attribute appears on all pages?
  248. # [11:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: I suppose the latter in principle but the former may be better in order to avoid weird selection biases
  249. # [11:18] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/attr/t gets somewhat skewed by Topix
  250. # [11:19] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  251. # [11:19] <hsivonen> Philip`: should I add csobj to the element list?
  252. # [11:19] * Lachy__ is now known as Lachy
  253. # [11:20] <Hixie> annevk: well, if you need backup don't hesitate to let me know you want a reply
  254. # [11:21] <Hixie> and i'll deal with it :-)
  255. # [11:21] <annevk> heh, thanks
  256. # [11:22] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e180228089.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  257. # [11:23] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://philip.html5.org/data/attr-count-pages.txt http://philip.html5.org/data/attr-count-total.txt
  258. # [11:23] <Hixie> aw man
  259. # [11:23] <Hixie> marginheight
  260. # [11:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  261. # [11:23] <Hixie> totally didn't think of that
  262. # [11:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: if you make it conforming, it's easier to remember :-)
  263. # [11:24] <Hixie> i've already made style="" conforming, don't push your luck :-P
  264. # [11:26] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://philip.html5.org/data/tag-count-pages.txt http://philip.html5.org/data/tag-count-total.txt if you want to see where csobj is
  265. # [11:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: thank you
  266. # [11:27] <Philip`> (The page counts are still strongly biased by a few sites that have thousands of pages in the list)
  267. # [11:27] <hsivonen> I know the Web is weird and still these stats tend to surprise me in some ways
  268. # [11:28] <Philip`> (but most of the pages are still from sites with only one page in the list, if I remember correctly)
  269. # [11:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: how so?
  270. # [11:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: like claris cruft
  271. # [11:29] <Hixie> ah
  272. # [11:30] <Hixie> NYT is a big enough site that i see NYT-specific cruft in my data
  273. # [11:30] <Hixie> <nyt_copyright> and the like
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  275. # [11:30] <Hixie> and ebay is big enough that it skews certain things, like the most common absolute url for <img src=""> is a 1x1 pixel GIF on ebay
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  277. # [11:31] <hsivonen> I wonder what CDN load that gif causes
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  281. # [11:37] <Philip`> Most EBay pages seem to only get a dozen viewers, so it shouldn't be as much load as the occurrence count would suggest
  282. # [11:38] * Philip` realises that when he said "start tag" he was totally wrong, since he forgot the distinction between the tokeniser and the SAX-mode parser
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  284. # [11:40] <Philip`> Hixie: s/occurance/occurrence/ in latest checkin
  285. # [11:41] <Hixie> thx
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  315. # [12:24] <zcorpan> styles on html and body in the outer document would apply to each seamless iframe
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  319. # [12:27] <zcorpan> perhaps doc='' should be an "in body" fragment
  320. # [12:28] <zcorpan> <iframe innerhtml=''>
  321. # [12:28] <Philip`> <iframe body=''>
  322. # [12:30] <zcorpan> yeah body is better
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  326. # [12:30] <zcorpan> optionally used together with type=''
  327. # [12:31] <zcorpan> wonder if there's a case where one'd want to have a full html document and not just in body
  328. # [12:31] <zcorpan> and not the xml syntax
  329. # [12:33] <Philip`> Seamless framesets!
  330. # [12:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: style sheet link?
  331. # [12:33] <hsivonen> that's something from outside the body
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  333. # [12:33] <hendry> can't one assume utf-8 nowadays? http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/moving-to-unicode-51.html
  334. # [12:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: <style scoped>@import works though
  335. # [12:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but yeah
  336. # [12:34] <hendry> i was just thinking why <meta charset="UTF-8"> is really needed
  337. # [12:34] <hsivonen> hendry: nope
  338. # [12:34] <hendry> hsivonen: reasoning? :)
  339. # [12:34] <hsivonen> hendry: we are talking about parsing a DOMString that is already UTF-16
  340. # [12:34] <zcorpan> hendry: i have set my browser to fall back to utf-8 and it breaks a number of pages
  341. # [12:35] <hendry> zcorpan: for example?
  342. # [12:37] <hendry> another silly question. how do I track the actual HTML rendering of this change? http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1660&to=1661 in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
  343. # [12:37] <Hixie> how do you spell "cyclable"? As in, something that can be cycled.
  344. # [12:37] <hsivonen> Re: earlier ODF links: I think Adobe made a mistake when it tried to protect its direct Acrobat sales by asking MS not to build PDF export into Office by default
  345. # [12:38] <Hixie> hendry: how do you mean?
  346. # [12:38] <Philip`> Hixie: You look on Google to see if many other people have spelt it that way, and if they have then it's probably adequately legitimate :-)
  347. # [12:39] <Hixie> doesn't work
  348. # [12:39] <hendry> Hixie: i want a link of that diff to the particular section of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work. so i can get more context.
  349. # [12:39] <Hixie> "cyclable" is a common french word
  350. # [12:39] <Hixie> hendry: oh
  351. # [12:39] <Hixie> hendry: just search for the added text
  352. # [12:40] <zcorpan> hendry: e.g. https://ladda.telenor.se/topup.asp
  353. # [12:41] <Philip`> Hixie: Alternatively, you spell it whatever way you think looks sensible and then see if anyone suggests that's wrong and justifies an alternative :-)
  354. # [12:42] <hendry> Hixie: searching around http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ is hard work for my Thinkpad ;) but OK. Another silly question. How do I see the revision number on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
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  357. # [12:42] <annevk> hendry, svn.whatwg.org/webapps/
  358. # [12:43] <Philip`> hendry: You can use http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1660&to=1661&context=20 if you want more context
  359. # [12:45] <hendry> was expecting a little SVN r1663 printed somewhere on the spec
  360. # [12:45] <Hixie> hendry: use a better browser :-)
  361. # [12:45] <hendry> Philip`: ah thanks. though I still prefer to read er "rendered HTML".
  362. # [12:46] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  363. # [12:47] <annevk> since Hixie makes markup mistakes about every week, reading the diffs is easier :p
  364. # [12:47] <hsivonen> markup is tough :-)
  365. # [12:49] <Hixie> hendry: the one on the site isn't in subversion
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  367. # [12:49] <Hixie> hendry: it's the working copy
  368. # [12:49] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  369. # [12:49] <Hixie> hendry: so it's always rX where X = N+1 where N is rHEAD
  370. # [12:53] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/WebCore/platform/text/TextCodecICU.cpp#L61 if you haven't already see that
  371. # [12:55] <Hixie> gsnedders: anything specific?
  372. # [12:55] <gsnedders> Hixie: No, just the general list of encodings there
  373. # [12:55] <Hixie> seems to match basically what's in the spec now
  374. # [12:56] <Hixie> except for TIS-620
  375. # [13:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM119-72-22-154.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  376. # [13:03] <annevk> has anyone checked whether this alias stuff also applies to text/plain and text/xml ?
  377. # [13:04] <Hixie> i imagine it applies to text/plain, yes
  378. # [13:04] <Hixie> really we should just get IANA updated
  379. # [13:05] <annevk> that's what i was getting at
  380. # [13:05] <Hixie> i'm happy to remove this stuff once IANA is updated. :-)
  381. # [13:05] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
  382. # [13:06] <gsnedders> But are we going to get it updated? Unlikely.
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  384. # [13:06] <gsnedders> annevk: text/xml certainly
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  395. # [13:28] * Philip` disapproves of the Americanization like s/serialise/serialize/ :-p
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  398. # [13:29] <hsivonen> annevk: should the "I've read the changes!" button take me to the next diff?
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  401. # [13:30] <Hixie> could someone who has an implementation of the encoding sniffer let me know if my latest checkin is correct?
  402. # [13:31] <Hixie> Philip`: me too, but i have to be consistent at least
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  405. # [13:33] <annevk> hsivonen, no
  406. # [13:33] <hsivonen> ok.
  407. # [13:33] <annevk> hsivonen, maybe someone could add a "next diff" thingie...
  408. # [13:33] <hsivonen> reading diff from my mailbox then
  409. # [13:33] <annevk> hsivonen, it stores a cookie for your next visit
  410. # [13:38] * hsivonen finds that feature additions aren't always annotated [c]
  411. # [13:40] <hsivonen> apparently <script charset> and data-* escaped my script for this reason
  412. # [13:40] <Hixie> yeah i'm pretty flaky
  413. # [13:41] <Hixie> i often don't really know what to annotate things with
  414. # [13:41] <Hixie> sorry about that
  415. # [13:43] * hsivonen notes language attribute participates in processing but is not conforming
  416. # [13:44] <hsivonen> I wonder if I've missed anything else
  417. # [13:44] <hsivonen> my cursory reading suggests no
  418. # [13:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you make type attribute required for inline scripts? http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=186
  419. # [13:48] <annevk> if he did, it's a bug
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  423. # [13:48] <Hixie> not intentionally, why?
  424. # [13:48] <Hixie> oh
  425. # [13:48] <Hixie> i made it required if it's not javascript
  426. # [13:48] <Hixie> or something like that
  427. # [13:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: "When used to include script data, the script data must be embedded inline, the format of the data must be given using the type attribute"
  428. # [13:48] <Hixie> shouldn't affect you
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  430. # [13:48] <Hixie> right
  431. # [13:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: not as clear as it could be
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  433. # [13:49] <hsivonen> I take it that there's no actionable change in http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=186 then?
  434. # [13:49] <Hixie> send mail saying what's confusing :-)
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  437. # [13:49] <hsivonen> ok
  438. # [13:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: depends what you are testing
  439. # [13:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: if the type="" is application/xml or some such, you should probably test xml well-formedness or something, if you want to be perfect and cool
  440. # [13:50] <Hixie> but if you're treating script as a black box for now, then no, probably not
  441. # [13:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: black box for now
  442. # [13:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: except it is a text-based black box
  443. # [13:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't support theoretical XML tree-based languages
  444. # [13:54] * hsivonen sees Hixie defined iWeb as legitimate
  445. # [13:56] <Hixie> hm?
  446. # [13:56] <Hixie> iWeb does a lot of bad things
  447. # [13:56] <Hixie> i doubt i've made its output valid
  448. # [13:56] <hsivonen> "However, WYSIWYG tools are legitimate. WYSIWYG tools should use elements they know are appropriate, and should not use elements that they do not know to be appropriate. This might in certain extreme cases mean limiting the use of flow elements to just a few elements, like div, b, i, and span and making liberal use of the style attribute."
  449. # [13:57] <Hixie> something to that effect has always been there, no?
  450. # [13:58] <hsivonen> not sure
  451. # [13:58] <Hixie> i mean, we used to have a whole _section_ justifying wysiwyg editors
  452. # [13:58] <annevk> yeah, before it was <font>
  453. # [13:58] <hsivonen> I wasn't complaining :-)
  454. # [14:03] <Philip`> Hmm, IE has much stricter charset parsing than other browsers
  455. # [14:05] <Hixie> ok i'm going to bed now
  456. # [14:05] <Hixie> nn
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  478. # [15:30] * Lachy regrets jumping in to the alt debate again :-(
  479. # [15:32] <hsivonen> I'm so glad I promised myself that I stay out of it
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  498. # [16:13] <takkaria> I love Rob Burns
  499. # [16:14] <takkaria> he appears to be applying literary deconstruction to Namespces in XML
  500. # [16:14] <Dashiva> We'll just redefine everything and have a wizard handle the backwards compatability problems
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  502. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> yes
  503. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: there you have stumbled upon the solution to all our problems
  504. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> a wizard or magic fairy
  505. # [16:17] * Philip` grabs the fairy and bites its head off
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  508. # [16:20] <Dashiva> I think a message saying "Can we please keep the 'how to represent missing alt data' and 'is missing alt data conforming' issues separate, and not start arguing about one in a thread actually making progress on the other?"
  509. # [16:20] <Dashiva> would be in order about now...
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  511. # [16:21] <annevk> i like it how RB puts the blame for everything on these horrible implementors
  512. # [16:21] * takkaria bingles Philip TAYLOR (Ret'd) for his latest opine
  513. # [16:21] <Dashiva> takkaria: Feel free the write the mail outlined above ;)
  514. # [16:23] <takkaria> Dashiva: the three-line posts that he makes are often not replied to, so I'll just sit and hope that's the case here
  515. # [16:26] * MikeSmith is nostalgic for Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster) .. and for that brief moment in time when we had Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)
  516. # [16:29] <takkaria> I think he's very often wrong, but at least he's short and to the point. :)
  517. # [16:34] <Lachy> The wizard and magic fairy solution is intriguing.
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  524. # [16:56] <Lachy> hmm. It looks like the machine-checkable vs. non-machine-checkable conformance criteria debate is yet another bikeshed to avoid.
  525. # [16:57] <Philip`> It's not a bikeshed, since it's a significant issue
  526. # [16:57] <annevk> someone just mentioned the semantic web in that context
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  536. # [17:50] <takkaria> I'm not quite sure how JJ's machine-checkable idealism would be implemented, even after his previous posts on the issue
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  538. # [17:50] <takkaria> cos it seems to me that if he had his way, HTML5 would require much more verbosity and have little default styling, such that no-one would actually write it over HTML4
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  543. # [17:57] <gsnedders> takkaria: Implication is that it has to have _no_ default styling
  544. # [17:57] <gsnedders> takkaria: Thereby going against the principle of backwards compat.
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  546. # [17:59] <takkaria> gsnedders: that too :)
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  548. # [18:00] <takkaria> my point is really that the increased verbosity it would require would mean that you need more bytes to get the same effect so no one would actually use it
  549. # [18:01] <Dashiva> And someone would then implement <body default-style> to use HTML4 styles :)
  550. # [18:01] <Philip`> That's why browsers have to remove support for HTML4 features so that everyone will rapidly transition into the exciting new world of the semantic web
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  554. # [18:04] <takkaria> someone should probably point him towards XHTML2...
  555. # [18:05] <annevk> HT doesn't seem to be willing to accept reality just yet... :(
  556. # [18:10] <annevk> I wonder if HT is suggesting that browsers dispatch on nodeName rather than localName + namespaceURI
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  558. # [18:11] <annevk> That's near insane
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  560. # [18:13] <Philip`> Seems kind of odd to throw out the whole namespace URI thing just so you can keep something that looks the same as the colon syntax
  561. # [18:14] <Dashiva> It's to preserve the integrity of namespaces that we're rewriting namespaces
  562. # [18:14] <Dashiva> Isn't that obvious?
  563. # [18:15] <takkaria> the first rule of namespaces is that you do not follow Namespaces
  564. # [18:15] <Dashiva> What's the second rule?
  565. # [18:15] <Lachy> there is no second rule
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  568. # [18:16] <Dashiva> Is that a rule?
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  571. # [18:17] <Philip`> It's more of a guideline
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  574. # [18:20] <takkaria> except for the evil implementors
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  576. # [18:23] <Dashiva> The vast browser-wing conspiracy
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  578. # [18:25] <Philip`> Does there exist a list of conspiracies that were actually real, and worked successfully for quite a while?
  579. # [18:25] <Dashiva> Yes
  580. # [18:25] <Dashiva> I read an article about it yesterday, actually
  581. # [18:25] <Philip`> It'd be interesting to see how vast a conspiracy could get, and how the probability of keeping it secret varies with size
  582. # [18:27] <takkaria> Mozilla is especially to blame for the browser conspiracy. they only look like they're open
  583. # [18:28] <Philip`> But Opera is closed source and for-profit so it must be transmitting all your browsing details to the NSA
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  585. # [18:29] <Dashiva> Don't forget that they all send your browsing data to these so-called "anti-phising" services
  586. # [18:29] <Philip`> Firefox doesn't (by default) :-p
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  588. # [18:30] <Dashiva> That's what they want you to think
  589. # [18:30] * Philip` assumes Opera does, but isn't sure
  590. # [18:30] <Dashiva> It just means they hide it
  591. # [18:30] <Philip`> Dashiva: Where do they hide it?
  592. # [18:30] <Dashiva> ICMP
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  594. # [18:30] <Philip`> ...
  595. # [18:30] <takkaria> they actually install a trojan network stack on Windows machines so you can't detect it
  596. # [18:30] <Dashiva> The payload of PING can be used for data transfer just fine
  597. # [18:30] <Philip`> takkaria: I'm running Linux
  598. # [18:31] <takkaria> Philip`: they don't do so well there
  599. # [18:32] <Philip`> Also I'll claim that I'm running Gentoo and compiled Firefox from source, so I wouldn't be affected by secret hidden code in the distributed binary
  600. # [18:32] <Dashiva> And you read the source? :)
  601. # [18:33] <Philip`> No, but millions of other eyes have
  602. # [18:34] <Dashiva> Yeah, and those millions of eyes totally caught that debian vuln last week ;)
  603. # [18:34] <Philip`> (Actually I used Gentoo's mozilla-firefox-bin package which downloads the official Mozilla binary instead, because I didn't fancy waiting an hour for it to compile after every minor version upgrade...)
  604. # [18:34] <Philip`> Dashiva: Indeed, they did catch it last week, which proves that vulnerabilities always get noticed :-)
  605. # [18:34] <Dashiva> In other news, Henry is quite optimistic about HTML5 it seems
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  673. # [22:11] <Dashiva> "Oh, sure, everyone on the entire internet uses flickr, but it's only one site so we'll ignore it"
  674. # [22:12] <Lachy> I would respond, but I don't want to fuel the fire any more
  675. # [22:13] <Lachy> John just doesn't realise there is a difference between choosing not to optimise for a situation and choosing not to deal with it at all
  676. # [22:13] <Dashiva> I guess specs are an edge case too, then :)
  677. # [22:14] <Lachy> every site is an edge case, since it's only one out of billions :-)
  678. # [22:15] <jgraham> Hey it's marginally more sane that Rob Burns explaining why the sky is green if you squint at it just right
  679. # [22:15] <Lachy> but it's not just Flickr. It's photobucket, my opera, .mac and every other site that publishes user generated content
  680. # [22:15] <jgraham> I should emphasise the *marginally* there :)
  681. # [22:15] <Lachy> jgraham, it depends on the defintion of "green".
  682. # [22:15] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  683. # [22:16] <Dashiva> Don't come here with your fancy "facts", Lachy. We don't need any of those.
  684. # [22:17] <Lachy> and it also depends on whether you're referring to the whole sky at all times during the day, or the brief moment it transistions from blue to orange at sunset
  685. # [22:17] <hober> yes, we all need to mind the /topic :)
  686. # [22:18] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  687. # [22:20] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.105.221)
  688. # [22:21] <jgraham> Well didn't his last email basically say that the fact that the sky is blue should be ignored because the process for deciding sky colour should favour whatever colour he likes and he likes green therefore the sky is green
  689. # [22:22] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  690. # [22:23] <Lachy> I haven't read that mail yet. Is it a recent one or old one?
  691. # [22:27] <Philip`> Lachy: I think it's several of them
  692. # [22:30] <tndH> apparently Boris Zbarsky is underestimating implementors...
  693. # [22:32] <gavin_> Boris Zbarsky is an implementor
  694. # [22:33] <tndH> yeah, not sure if Robert Burns is taking that into account though.
  695. # [22:33] <Philip`> It's not impossible for people to underestimate themselves :-)
  696. # [22:35] <othermaciej> maybe Boris is just being humble
  697. # [22:35] <jwalden> I don't think so
  698. # [22:38] <syp_> jwalden: hello, did you see my reply to your mail about the browser tests?
  699. # [22:38] <jwalden> syp_: I noticed it when skimming through email, problem being it got caught at the end of an existing thread and thus didn't show up as visible -- sec, I'll read
  700. # [22:39] <syp_> yes, I replied on the implementors list while the original was on the other list
  701. # [22:40] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  702. # [22:41] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  703. # [22:41] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e180228089.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 3.0/2008051206]")
  704. # [22:46] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-2d905a6d89782d74) ("The computer fell asleep")
  705. # [22:46] <Hixie> am i totally misunderstanding cwilson's attack vector in waf
  706. # [22:47] <Hixie> or is he just describing something that's a subset of a much bigger problem
  707. # [22:48] <annevk> he is, and that was already pointed out some time ago when Maciej brought that issue up
  708. # [22:49] <annevk> having said that, I'm not too comfortable yet with DNS rebinding / man-in-the-middle / etc.
  709. # [22:49] * Joins: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acah173.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  710. # [22:50] <annevk> I should put a filter in place for RB
  711. # [22:51] <annevk> I get annoyed when reading his e-mails and that's not good
  712. # [22:51] <Hixie> hehe
  713. # [22:52] <othermaciej> from last time I don't think there is a DNS rebinding vulnerability but I guess I'll have to slog through his email
  714. # [22:52] <Hixie> he's not very detailed and i already replied
  715. # [22:52] <Hixie> but if you can find something i missed, pelase let me know
  716. # [22:53] <annevk> though Chris understanding of the vulnarability is different from Maciej's
  717. # [22:53] <annevk> Maciej's was about being able to do POST after a DNS rebinding attack on the OPTIONS
  718. # [22:54] <annevk> Chris seems to be talking about exposing credentials which seems to imply he didn't even read the proposal carefully
  719. # [22:54] <Hixie> yeah
  720. # [22:54] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  721. # [22:55] <othermaciej> I think Chris is describing what I described, but in a more vague and handwavey way
  722. # [22:55] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  723. # [22:55] <othermaciej> "This enables the vector of DNS attacks - the idea being that between those two connections, an attacker could insert themselves in to the stream. (Actually, more likely it would be the other way around - an attacker would insert themselves into the stream, give back "it's okay to do x-domain", then release and let the real site give back data."
  724. # [22:55] <othermaciej> I don't remember how we concluded that this was not a real vulnerability
  725. # [22:56] <othermaciej> Hixie: DNS rebinding works in reverse
  726. # [22:56] <othermaciej> Hixie: the DNS infrastructure does not have to be compromised to do a DNS rebinding attack
  727. # [22:56] * jgraham considers replying to Justin James, realises that insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results, decides not to bother
  728. # [22:56] <Hixie> it does against HTTP 1.1 servers
  729. # [22:57] <Hixie> Host: safeguards against DNS rebinding from other names
  730. # [22:57] <othermaciej> checking the Host header is indeed a full defense against DNS rebinding
  731. # [22:57] <othermaciej> if you check it
  732. # [22:57] <othermaciej> which many (most) existing servers don't
  733. # [22:57] <Hixie> if you don't check it, XHR is the _least_ of your problems
  734. # [22:57] <annevk> "RE: Work that would be required to revert Internet Explorer 8 to 'aria:'" wtf!
  735. # [22:57] <othermaciej> checking the Host header is indeed a defense against the DNS rebinding attack against the preflight chec
  736. # [22:57] <annevk> why is the W3C so fucked up?
  737. # [22:58] <Hixie> if you don't check Host:, the simplest attack vector is just to serve the JS file from hostile.com and the rest of the resource from victim.hostile.com
  738. # [22:58] <Hixie> no need for XHR
  739. # [23:00] <annevk> (fortunately Chris is not interested in the idea)
  740. # [23:00] <Lachy> how does checking Host: prevent an attacker from intercepting a request and serving a hostile JS file?
  741. # [23:01] <othermaciej> ok let me do the short lecture on DNS Rebinding
  742. # [23:01] <othermaciej> DNS rebinding works like this
  743. # [23:01] <othermaciej> you access http://attacker.com/
  744. # [23:01] <othermaciej> attacker.com has a very short DNS expiration time
  745. # [23:02] <othermaciej> a little while after access, a DNS change propagates so that attacker.com points to the same IP as victim.com
  746. # [23:02] <othermaciej> attacker.com loads some victim.com resources
  747. # [23:02] <othermaciej> in general this only works when the only access control to victim.com is network position (for example it is behind a firewall)
  748. # [23:02] <othermaciej> since you end up sending attacker.com cookies, not victim.com cookies
  749. # [23:03] <othermaciej> if victim.com checks the Host header, then even this is ineffective
  750. # [23:03] <othermaciej> for the same reason, a DNS rebinding attack against the method check preflight would be ineffective, because attacker.com cookies would be sent for the POST, not victim.com cookies
  751. # [23:03] <othermaciej> so you could only do what XDR would always let you do (POST without credetials)
  752. # [23:04] <jwalden> Host: checking is required by HTTP/1.1 -- are servers just non-compliant?
  753. # [23:04] <Dashiva> You can have a * host that catches everything
  754. # [23:05] <Hixie> it's not so much that com cookies would be sent for the POST, so much as a DNS rebinding attack against the method check preflight would not grant you any more access than simply doing a 1995-era cross-site <form> submit
  755. # [23:05] <annevk> jwalden, are browsers just non-compliant? madness!
  756. # [23:05] <othermaciej> is anything compliant to anything?
  757. # [23:05] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  758. # [23:05] <Lachy> othermaciej, I thought the problem was if attacker.com impersonated victim.com. So that when a user loads victim.com in their browser and then attacker.com uses DNS rebinding to intercept some of the requests and send back malicious files
  759. # [23:05] <jwalden> well, browsers didn't have a spec
  760. # [23:05] <jwalden> and you have to check to do vhosting correctly
  761. # [23:05] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  762. # [23:06] <jwalden> when you have it set up to serve many origins from one server
  763. # [23:06] <annevk> everything is probably inherently imperfect due to human nature
  764. # [23:06] <othermaciej> Lachy: yeah, that's not DNS Rebinding
  765. # [23:06] <Lachy> ok
  766. # [23:06] <annevk> that's man-in-the-middle iirc
  767. # [23:07] <othermaciej> Lachy: that would require compromising DNS itself, and if you have that, you don't need any form of cross-site access
  768. # [23:07] <othermaciej> (running a malicious DNS server on an open wireless network would be one form of this attack)
  769. # [23:07] <Hixie> if you can mitm the last router, you can just inject whatever you want straight into the http stream
  770. # [23:07] <othermaciej> generally SSL protects against that, unless the user blindly clicks through on invalid certs
  771. # [23:07] <Hixie> (poking with dns would be far more complicated)
  772. # [23:08] <annevk> oh, i guess man-in-the-middle is more a malicious proxy
  773. # [23:08] <Lachy> othermaciej, the problem is the users do blinding accept invalid certs
  774. # [23:08] <Lachy> *blindly
  775. # [23:08] <Hixie> ff3 makes it nigh on impossible to click through an invalid cert
  776. # [23:08] <othermaciej> Lachy: I'd really like to make Safari always reject self-signed certs but I am not sure marketing would agree
  777. # [23:08] <Hixie> othermaciej: just do what ff3 does :-)
  778. # [23:08] <jwalden> it's just five clicks or so :-)
  779. # [23:09] <jwalden> through arcane security UI :-)
  780. # [23:09] <Hixie> five pretty unobvious clicks
  781. # [23:09] <Hixie> yeah
  782. # [23:09] <Hixie> i've had to do it numerous times :-)
  783. # [23:09] <jwalden> "feature, not bug" :-)
  784. # [23:10] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acah173.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Connection timed out)
  785. # [23:11] <annevk> if it happens often for the user he'll make a habbit out of it and you'll have the same problem
  786. # [23:11] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I've got a couple of bug reports through SP not accepting self-signed certs, but something like Saf has the advantage of being able to prompt the user at least
  787. # [23:11] <othermaciej> we do prompt
  788. # [23:11] <othermaciej> prompts are kinda useless
  789. # [23:13] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Yeah, well all something like SP can do is either outright accept it or outright refuse it.
  790. # [23:14] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  791. # [23:14] <Hixie> i'm pretty sure i just saw an e-mail on this alt thread claiming 50 years of experience
  792. # [23:14] <Hixie> the web has only been around for 18...
  793. # [23:15] <Dashiva> Accessible file cabinets, maybe?
  794. # [23:16] <gsnedders> I can't even claim 18 years of experience of life
  795. # [23:16] <Dashiva> Not even counting the pre-birth months?
  796. # [23:16] * gsnedders wonders how many under 18 y/os there are
  797. # [23:16] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Not even
  798. # [23:17] <gsnedders> (I was born on 19920420)
  799. # [23:17] <Dashiva> Well, then... get off my lawn!
  800. # [23:18] <gsnedders> I'm not on a lawn, yet alone your lawn.
  801. # [23:18] <Dashiva> You're a young'un, you're always on my lawn
  802. # [23:24] <Philip`> Dashiva: I think you need to do some gardening, since lawns really shouldn't look like carpet tiles
  803. # [23:24] <Dashiva> I thought the British prided themselves on lawns that were suitable for any kind of activity
  804. # [23:25] <Philip`> Only croquet is permitted
  805. # [23:25] <jgraham> And even that only during the summer
  806. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Hahaha
  807. # [23:27] <gsnedders> See, that's why you to college that actually allows you to use the lawn.
  808. # [23:27] <gsnedders> (Apart from for croquet)
  809. # [23:28] <Lachy> he must have been referring to the time when the web was implemented over snail mail and alt text was written on the back of photos called "postcards"
  810. # [23:29] <gsnedders> Oh, the passage we had in the French exam stated something like (to translate the French): "She posts a blog on the internet…"
  811. # [23:29] <gsnedders> Unlike all these people who blog on paper
  812. # [23:29] <Dashiva> gsnedders: intranet
  813. # [23:29] <Dashiva> duh
  814. # [23:30] <hendry> /away sssssssssleep
  815. # [23:30] <gsnedders> I should do that, too.
  816. # [23:30] * annevk tries campaigning against <timerange>
  817. # [23:30] <gsnedders> Especially seeming I have a physics exam and Hixie is "suggesting" I do physics at uni
  818. # [23:31] <Philip`> Sleep is a waste of time that could be used for last-minute revision
  819. # [23:31] <jgraham> Last minute revision is a waste of time that could be used for sleep
  820. # [23:31] <annevk> what's up with all these linux security updates
  821. # [23:31] <gsnedders> Philip`: Apart from when you have CFS and would therefore fall asleep during the three hour exam
  822. # [23:31] <gsnedders> annevk: Linux is insecure?
  823. # [23:32] <annevk> tthe changelogs are also completely incomprehensible
  824. # [23:32] <annevk> i can't believe i talked my mom into this, though I guess Windows updates are just as bad
  825. # [23:33] <Philip`> The Windows updates just hide all the technical details, which isn't really an improvement
  826. # [23:33] <gsnedders> OS X is reporting 0KB free on /. I don't think that' good.
  827. # [23:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: Slashdot has run out of space?
  828. # [23:33] <jgraham> annevk: This is ubuntu, right? I think I have had three batches of security updates recently including the original SSL one
  829. # [23:34] <annevk> indeed
  830. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: No, on root, followed by full-stop
  831. # [23:34] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acah173.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  832. # [23:34] <jgraham> Philip`: When slashdot runs out of space all the intertubes run out of space </bagpuss>
  833. # [23:35] <annevk> I wonder what my mom will think of it
  834. # [23:35] <annevk> if she even notices the difference :)
  835. # [23:35] <jgraham> annevk: I guess security updates tend to come in batches as one hole is noticed any then everyone else goes on a security audit for a bit
  836. # [23:36] * Quits: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  837. # [23:38] * gsnedders is rather amazed by the fact he's only ever got one security hole found in SP. There have to be more!
  838. # [23:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: Maybe you have too few users for anyone to care :)
  839. # [23:39] <gsnedders> jgraham: We have plenty of users :)
  840. # [23:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: Maybe you published the wrong email address for reporting security vulnerabilities, so all the reports are getting lost
  841. # [23:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: No
  842. # Session Close: Fri May 23 00:00:00 2008

The end :)