/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 06 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:01] <Lachy> I couldn't see any example in the spec using autosubmi
  6. # [00:01] <Lachy> was it hidden in a comment?
  7. # [00:01] <Hixie> yes
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  17. # [00:35] * Philip` finally gets his box working again
  18. # [00:36] <Philip`> It kind of stopped networking, and then I guess it didn't like having around a year of software updates without being rebooted so it didn't start up trivially :-(
  19. # [00:36] <jcranmer> O_O
  20. # [00:37] <Philip`> Hixie: Is there some way you could modify your script that calls the multipage generator, so that if e.g. hypothetically the server running the multipage generator was done for some hours, it wouldn't start seven simultaneous requests to generate the multipage spec once it came back up?
  21. # [00:37] <Hixie> yeah, that should be possible
  22. # [00:38] <Philip`> Hopefully it shouldn't ever be necessary, so don't worry if it's a non-zero amount of effort :-)
  23. # [00:40] <Hixie> done
  24. # [00:41] <Hixie> (just changed -t 0 to -t 1 in the wget command line)
  25. # [00:41] * Philip` won't test the changes
  26. # [00:41] <Philip`> so I'll just assume they'll work, and so I'll say thanks
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  37. # [01:54] <Lachy> Hixie, in web workers, this sentence is grammatically incorrect: "The origin and effective script origin of scripts running in workers are both the origin of the absolute URL given by the value of the URL attribute of the worker's WindowWorker object."
  38. # [01:55] <Lachy> it says "are both", but then it only mentions one thing
  39. # [01:56] <Hixie> in english, verbs are conjugated relative to the subject, not the object
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  41. # [01:56] <Lachy> what?
  42. # [01:57] <Hixie> two apples are a pear
  43. # [01:57] <Hixie> not two apples is a pear
  44. # [01:57] <Hixie> similarly, an apple is two pears
  45. # [01:57] <Hixie> not an apple are two pears
  46. # [01:58] <Lachy> my problem is with the word both, not the word are
  47. # [01:58] <SadEagle> May I suggest "Both the origin and effective script origin of scripts running in workers are the absolute URL given by the value of the URL attribute of the worker's WindowWorker object."
  48. # [01:58] <Hixie> the word both in that sentence is also relating to the subjects
  49. # [01:58] <Hixie> a and b are both letters
  50. # [01:58] <Lachy> then SadEagle's suggestion makes more sense
  51. # [01:59] <SadEagle> Yeah, but that's a syntactic ambiguity. My mind parsed is the same as Lachy's.
  52. # [01:59] <Hixie> fair enough
  53. # [01:59] <Hixie> changed
  54. # [02:00] <SadEagle> Hixie: may I abuse you to clarify the definition of CSS2.1's clip property?
  55. # [02:00] <Hixie> you can try but i make no promises of knowing the answer
  56. # [02:01] <SadEagle> It just seems to be defined to be off top-right corner for RTL direction, and everyone seems to implement to alway sbe off the top-left corner... Unless direction:rtl somehow reversed the meaning of left and right borders...
  57. # [02:01] <Hixie> i have no idea how it is supposd to interact with directionality
  58. # [02:02] <SadEagle> fair enough, thanks for your time :-)
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  60. # [02:14] <Hixie> ok sicking has convinced me to remove Window from workers
  61. # [02:14] <Hixie> what should we call the global object?
  62. # [02:26] <Philip`> Linuk
  63. # [02:33] <Hixie> he suggested WorkerGlobalScope, with that object only containing two members, "self" pointing to itself, and "utils" pointing to a separate object with APIs
  64. # [02:33] <Hixie> so you'd do utils.openDatabase() etc
  65. # [02:34] <Hixie> not sure if you'd need to do |new utils.XMLHttpRequest()| or if we'd still have constructors in the global scope
  66. # [02:34] <Hixie> he vanished before i could ask
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  68. # [02:37] <Lachy> Hixie, in step 6 of "When a script invokes the import(url) method...", it says "or gets prematurely aborted by the "kill a worker" algorithm below." - s/below/above/
  69. # [02:38] <Hixie> thx
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  72. # [02:46] <Lachy> Hixie, is URL_MISMATCH_ERR a new exception code that you invented for this, or is it defined somewhere other than DOM3Core?
  73. # [02:46] <Hixie> invented
  74. # [02:46] <Lachy> ok
  75. # [02:47] <Lachy> I guess that's the reason for the "Code 19" issue after it
  76. # [02:47] <Hixie> it's on the list in the wiki :-)
  77. # [02:47] <Lachy> which page?
  78. # [02:48] <Hixie> exception codes
  79. # [02:50] <Lachy> oh, nice. SECURITY_ERR is useful.
  80. # [02:50] <Lachy> but there doesn't appear to be any response to your proposal for it on public-webapi
  81. # [02:53] <Hixie> we so need someone to own DOM Core and actually write the spec
  82. # [02:55] <Lachy> is there anyone in webapps who's supposed to be working on it?
  83. # [02:55] <Lachy> or is zcorpan still intending to write DOM5 one day?
  84. # [02:55] <Hixie> dunno
  85. # [02:57] <Lachy> ok. well, if no-ones working on it by the time I get Selectors API to CR, then I might pick it up.
  86. # [02:58] <Lachy> also, I might have to incorporate :context/:scope directly into Selectors API. I got no response from the CSSWG saying whether or not the proposal has been accepted or rejected, and it really needs to get done before browsers ship with selectors api
  87. # [02:59] <Lachy> I should probably wait till anne gets back, since hes our csswg rep
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  91. # [03:04] <Hixie> i've found that just doing things and letting people know is an effective incentive for them to get their act together
  92. # [03:04] <Hixie> ask for forgiveness, not permission, and all :-)
  93. # [03:07] <jcranmer> hmm, that's the first and, to date, only discussion I've participated in on the W3C mailing list
  94. # [03:09] <jcranmer> (debate over whether or not scoping stylesheets should refer to rerooting the selection tree or merely limiting the possible set of nodes to match)
  95. # [03:11] <Lachy> jcranmer, looks like you've participated in 2 other threads as well
  96. # [03:12] <Lachy> with just one message each, though
  97. # [03:12] <jcranmer> I made a response and didn't follow up
  98. # [03:12] <jcranmer> that doesn't count in my book
  99. # [03:12] <Lachy> ok, so participation requires at least 2 posts per thread?
  100. # [03:12] <jcranmer> well, maybe the later one counts
  101. # [03:13] <jcranmer> since I did rebutt a point
  102. # [03:13] <jcranmer> the other one was "oh, we've already done that, look here:"
  103. # [03:13] <Lachy> I like people who contribute once, say what they need and leave. It makes reading the thread so much easier and non-repetitive
  104. # [03:14] <jcranmer> I guess I prefer my discussions... back-and-forth
  105. # [03:14] <jcranmer> so long as both sides are understanding each other
  106. # [03:14] <jcranmer> if not, it's only a giant shouting match
  107. # [03:14] <Lachy> Hixie, the workers spec would be a lot easier for me to comprehend if the unwritten tutorial section was actually written demonstrated how the API was intended to be used
  108. # [03:15] <Hixie> yeah i intend to write that section tonight
  109. # [03:15] <Lachy> oh good. Then I should have waited a day before reviewing the spec :-)
  110. # [03:15] <Hixie> heh
  111. # [03:15] <Hixie> i just checked in big changes
  112. # [03:16] <Lachy> well, I aint reading it again yet it was hard enough the first time
  113. # [03:16] <Hixie> hah
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  116. # [03:24] <Hixie> hmmmm
  117. # [03:25] <Hixie> one way to solve the problem that was being discussed the other day is to make the first port that a worker receives be automatically assigned to a variable in the global scope
  118. # [03:25] <Hixie> that way you can never hit the case where you GC straight away
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  120. # [03:28] <Hixie> ports could also be simplified by having them queue events until such time as someone enables them manually
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  153. # [08:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: ARIA has aria-hidden=true for irrelevant=''
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  156. # [08:35] <hsivonen> I just realized I broke my promise not to use SVG in hypothetical examples.
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  159. # [09:00] <Hixie> hsivonen: aria-hidden="" isn't accessible, as i understand it (since it doesn't do anything except for ATs)
  160. # [09:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: you are supposed to use it together with *[aria-hidden="true"] { display:none; }
  161. # [09:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: doesn't work with non-CSS non-AT UAs, though.
  162. # [09:03] <hsivonen> unless those UAs start triggering on ARIA
  163. # [09:04] <Hixie> CSS is optional, anything that relies on CSS is not accessible almost by definition :-)
  164. # [09:04] <Hixie> isn't triggering on ARIA specifically counter to ARIA?
  165. # [09:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes and yes
  166. # [09:05] <hsivonen> are there contemporary UAs that support JS but not CSS?
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  177. # [10:09] <Hixie> heycam: can't we have some flag on the interface that says that HasProperty returns true for anything that NamedGetter would find, or something?
  178. # [10:09] <Hixie> i don't want to have to spec this all over the place if i can help it :-)
  179. # [10:10] <heycam> Hixie, but it's more than that. Object.prototype.hasOwnProperty() returns true, too.
  180. # [10:10] <heycam> so they're real properties
  181. # [10:10] <Hixie> ok, well then a flag that says that then
  182. # [10:10] <Hixie> (i have no idea what that means :-) )
  183. # [10:10] * Hixie looks up hasOwnProperty
  184. # [10:10] <heycam> so, ecma-262 defines Object.prototype.hasOwnProperty as just returning true if the object has such a property
  185. # [10:11] <Hixie> so we can define an interface attribute says specifies that the object has, in addition, properties for each of the things that namedgetter would return, or something
  186. # [10:11] <Hixie> or, alternatively:
  187. # [10:12] <Hixie> define a spec "hook" that i can refer to which automatically defines all of NameGetter, IndexGetter, etc
  188. # [10:12] <heycam> yeah i think a spec hook sounds better
  189. # [10:12] <Hixie> e.g. so that I can just write:
  190. # [10:13] <Hixie> "The BlaBla interface is a _Magical Land of Fairies_ in which the properties are the list of blablas, and for which the _Magical Fairy Setter Operation_ is foobarbaz."
  191. # [10:13] <Hixie> or whatever
  192. # [10:13] <Hixie> (not sure exactly what i would need to hook up each time)
  193. # [10:14] <heycam> i think you just need to define a set of (name, value) pairs, and call the hook with that
  194. # [10:14] <Hixie> or alternatively, have an attribute to enable this magic, and then say that the prose must define the _List Of Pixies_ and the _Pixie Getting_ and _Pixie Setting_ operations
  195. # [10:14] <heycam> yeah
  196. # [10:14] <Hixie> i think i need a list and an operation for setting, since that's usually non-trivial on my end
  197. # [10:14] <Hixie> and maybe deleting, if we decide we are ever going to support 'delete foo'
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  201. # [10:16] <heycam> will it be anything more than 'nodes in the document that match these criteria'?
  202. # [10:16] <heycam> anyway, bbl
  203. # [10:17] <Hixie> probably
  204. # [10:17] <Hixie> (e.g. localStorage)
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  212. # [11:00] <Hixie> does anyone have an example of some mathematical sequence that would be useful to calculate, is simple to code, but which takes a disproportionally high amount of processor time to calculate?
  213. # [11:00] <Philip`> Prime numbers?
  214. # [11:00] <Hixie> and for which numbers can be obtained one after the other as computation continues?
  215. # [11:01] <webben> hsivonen: I think http://www.webbie.org.uk/ might be an example.
  216. # [11:01] <Hixie> prime numbers could work
  217. # [11:01] <webben> (it's a weird customization of IE used with Thunder: http://www.screenreader.net/ )
  218. # [11:01] <webben> hsivonen: (example of "contemporary UAs that support JS but not CSS" that is)
  219. # [11:02] <Philip`> http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/ has a lot of sequences
  220. # [11:02] <othermaciej> Hixie: what counts as "disproportionately high"?
  221. # [11:02] <webben> hsivonen: also http://edbrowse.sourceforge.net/ though I'm not sure how actively developed that is.
  222. # [11:02] <othermaciej> the naiive way to code fibonacci is pretty slow
  223. # [11:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: like, something which would take a minute to give 10 numbers
  224. # [11:02] <othermaciej> ackerman is inherently slow
  225. # [11:03] <Hixie> i'm gonna try a very naive prime number search
  226. # [11:03] <Hixie> and see if that's slow enough for a worker demo
  227. # [11:03] <othermaciej> that won't take a minute to give 10 numbers
  228. # [11:03] <Hixie> it might if i start it high enough :-)
  229. # [11:03] <othermaciej> calling ack() with large-ish parameters would though
  230. # [11:03] <Philip`> There's no non-naive algorithm that will take a minute to give 10 numbers
  231. # [11:04] <Philip`> because you could rewrite it as "function f() { return [ 12376, 9162, 649, ... ] }"
  232. # [11:04] <Philip`> which is a less naive algorithm
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  234. # [11:04] <Philip`> so I suppose you'll have to use some artificial pointless example instead
  235. # [11:05] <othermaciej> you can pass in a parameter asking what number
  236. # [11:05] <othermaciej> to ensure a lookup table would have to be impractically large
  237. # [11:06] <othermaciej> numerically estimating a definite integral might be slow enough
  238. # [11:06] <othermaciej> given the right integrand
  239. # [11:06] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
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  241. # [11:09] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  242. # [11:10] * Hixie has just written the world's simplest yet the world's most advanced prime number search program ever
  243. # [11:10] <Hixie> so simple it's 13 lines of JS, so complex it won't work in any Web browser today!
  244. # [11:10] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/compuation/
  245. # [11:11] <Hixie> renamed to http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/primes/
  246. # [11:14] <hendry> Hixie: doesn't work for me. first time i've seen syntax like var worker = createWorker('worker.js');
  247. # [11:14] <Philip`> You should only loop up to i <= Math.sqrt(n) else it's unnecessarily inefficient
  248. # [11:15] <Hixie> Philip`: might that not distract from the point of the code?
  249. # [11:15] <Hixie> hendry: that's how advanced it is
  250. # [11:15] <Hixie> Philip`: (fixed)
  251. # [11:16] <Philip`> It would distract me less than the obvious easily-fixable inefficiency would :-)
  252. # [11:16] <Hixie> :-)
  253. # [11:19] <Philip`> Obviously the next step is to develop a multithreaded general number field sieve in JS
  254. # [11:19] * Joins: iarwain (n=iarwain@ec2-67-202-22-217.compute-1.amazonaws.com)
  255. # [11:20] <Hixie> if that would make a good example, please do so, i can fill in the worker-related bits
  256. # [11:20] <mcarter> Hixie, well, the chicken/egg question is answered -- real people are writing real code with calls to createWorker. so what are the browser vendors waiting for?
  257. # [11:20] <jacobolus> Philip`: because otherwise this is super-efficient code!
  258. # [11:20] <Hixie> mcarter: :-P
  259. # [11:21] <jacobolus> mcarter: you should tell them
  260. # [11:21] <Philip`> Hixie: I wasn't being serious :-p
  261. # [11:22] <Hixie> Philip`: aww :-(
  262. # [11:22] <Philip`> A C++ version at http://factor-by-gnfs.cvs.sourceforge.net/factor-by-gnfs/gnfs/ looks non-trivial
  263. # [11:22] <mcarter> jacobolus, if they don't know now, they should know on their own in the morning. At least some of them.
  264. # [11:22] <iarwain> Sorry for this off-topic question: What IRC logging software does this channel use?
  265. # [11:22] <jacobolus> why in the morning?
  266. # [11:22] <Hixie> iarwain: krijnh rolledh is own, i believe
  267. # [11:23] <iarwain> Hixie: oh, ok. Thanks.
  268. # [11:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@71.218.67.30) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  269. # [11:38] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/#tutorial
  270. # [11:38] <Hixie> first example
  271. # [11:38] <Hixie> is the style ok?
  272. # [11:40] * Lachy is reading it now
  273. # [11:40] <hsivonen> webben: thanks. the first one of those two while a UA is not a browser, it seems
  274. # [11:41] <webben> hsivonen: Not sure quite what distinction you're drawing?
  275. # [11:41] <webben> what's the difference between using it and IE itself in that sense?
  276. # [11:43] <hsivonen> webben: oops. I skipped the word "browser" and saw "Accessible RSS news reader"
  277. # [11:44] <hsivonen> webben: it's for the blind, though, so it presumably is OK for it to key its presentation off ARIA
  278. # [11:45] <webben> hsivonen: It uses Trident so it's conceivably possible it would apply display:none; by not displaying that text; one would have to test that (or email the dev) to confirm I guess.
  279. # [11:45] <Lachy> Hixie, the port variable isn't mentioned anywhere else in the spec, AFAICS
  280. # [11:45] <webben> hsivonen: Yeah, I guess it will get ARIA with IE8.
  281. # [11:47] <Hixie> Lachy: fixed
  282. # [11:48] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  283. # [11:49] <hsivonen> webben: anyway, it seems that Hixie's "not accessible" scenario needs a visual UA that cannot be considered constituting AT in any way that doesn't support CSS and that supports scripting the DOM with JS
  284. # [11:50] <Hixie> e.g. firefox (with styles disabled)
  285. # [11:51] <webben> hmm ... "cannot be considered constituting AT" seems a rather high bar to set (especially since, as Hixie mentioned, rejecting publisher CSS can itself be an accessibility feature)
  286. # [11:52] <webben> I wonder if there's mobile browser that does that though.
  287. # [11:52] <Hixie> links also supports JS, as i understand it
  288. # [11:52] <webben> links doesn't (I /think/) ; but ELinks sort of does.
  289. # [11:53] <hsivonen> that must have been fun to hack in considering the level of documentation in the Links codebase
  290. # [11:53] <webben> but ELinks also supports CSS.
  291. # [11:53] <Lachy> Hixie, where is the MessagePort interface defined? Did it get renamed to something else?
  292. # [11:53] <Hixie> also, ARIA, if i'm not mistaken, is only supposed to be used to expose things to the system accessibility apis, it's not supposed to be natively interpreted by the UA. (but i'm not sure i really follow aria's goals and requirements)
  293. # [11:53] <Hixie> (so i could be wrong)
  294. # [11:53] <Hixie> Lachy: html5
  295. # [11:53] <hsivonen> is ELinks a rewrite or does it actually build on the original Links?
  296. # [11:54] * hsivonen one considered hacking on Links as a weekend project and gave up after seeing the source
  297. # [11:54] <webben> Hixie: Not sure that's right actually.
  298. # [11:54] <hsivonen> s/one/once/
  299. # [11:54] <webben> hsivonen: dunno; ask in #elinks ;) ... I have a vague memory it's a partial rewrite.
  300. # [12:00] <Lachy> Hixie, why is the port property added seperately, instead of being defined in the interface and just set accordingly?
  301. # [12:01] <Hixie> because webidl doesn't yet have the concept of replaceable properties, and i want authors to be able to delete it or replace it or whatever, since it indirectly controls the lifetime of the worker
  302. # [12:01] <Lachy> ok
  303. # [12:04] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
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  309. # [12:15] <Lachy> hsivonen, given the new alt text requirements, how are you intending to adjust your validator? Will it now raise an error when alt is missing?
  310. # [12:27] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  312. # [12:35] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'm going to wait until accessibility advocates come back from vacation and the PFWG responds to the petitions of PFWG participants petitioning the PFWG as HTML WG participants and then Hixie responding to the response.
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  315. # [12:39] <Hixie> can someone look over http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/stocks/ and tell me (a) what parts need explaining and (b) what parts have errors? The intro to this is at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/#a-worker0
  316. # [12:39] <gDashiva> hsivonen: It's a bit disheartening when it sinks in that you're not even joking :)
  317. # [12:41] <gDashiva> Hixie: for..in on an array is kinda meh
  318. # [12:42] <Hixie> fixed
  319. # [12:42] <gDashiva> Not setting button.type that I can see
  320. # [12:43] <gDashiva> li.appendChild(a) should probably be (button)?
  321. # [12:43] <Hixie> doesn't it default to 'button'?
  322. # [12:43] <Hixie> oops, yes
  323. # [12:43] <gDashiva> Hixie: only in IE :)
  324. # [12:44] <Hixie> fixed and fixed
  325. # [12:45] <Philip`> I guess you might miss the first messages sent from the workers, since onmessage isn't set until a later script block after creating them
  326. # [12:45] <Philip`> which sounds suboptimal
  327. # [12:45] <Hixie> the messages are queued until you set onmessage (or call .start() on the port)
  328. # [12:46] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  329. # [12:47] <Hixie> though actually in this case it makes no difference since the workers don't send data until it is requested
  330. # [12:47] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-213-50.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
  331. # [12:47] <Hixie> oh actually, no, you're right, it would make a difference
  332. # [12:47] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  333. # [12:47] <Hixie> since we postMessage() first
  334. # [12:47] <Hixie> nm
  335. # [12:47] <Hixie> but anyway, not a problem
  336. # [12:47] <Hixie> i'll comment on that in the prose
  337. # [12:48] <gDashiva> If stock.cgi is slow (or just slow net), you'll get time shift on the ticker timer
  338. # [12:48] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/stocks/io.js tries to uses async XHR but returns the responseText without waiting for the response
  339. # [12:48] * gDashiva shakes fist at Philip`
  340. # [12:48] <gDashiva> I was gonna say that now :)
  341. # [12:48] <Hixie> time shift?
  342. # [12:48] <Hixie> oh, "true" is async? oops
  343. # [12:48] <Hixie> man who makes APIs with optional arguments that default to true
  344. # [12:48] <gDashiva> Hixie: You'll get updates at 10s, 20s+delay, 30s+2xdelay, etc
  345. # [12:49] <Hixie> gDashiva: that's ok, better than overloading the server :-)
  346. # [12:49] <Hixie> Philip`: fixed, thanks
  347. # [12:49] <gDashiva> kk
  348. # [12:50] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/stocks/ticker.js puts a semicolon after the function statement, which is inconsistent with the rest of the code
  349. # [12:50] <gDashiva> No, it's an assignment
  350. # [12:50] <Hixie> oops fixed, thanks
  351. # [12:50] <Hixie> he means the first one
  352. # [12:50] <gDashiva> Oh, my bad
  353. # [12:52] <gDashiva> Now we just need a script to fake createWorker :)
  354. # [12:53] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d9af8a1c5db28470)
  355. # [12:53] <Philip`> If there's a temporary network error then an exception will be thrown out of get(), and the ticker will permanently silently stop updating
  356. # [12:54] <Hixie> reload io.js
  357. # [12:54] <Hixie> does that work?
  358. # [12:55] <Philip`> I think so
  359. # [13:04] <gDashiva> 500 when you access search.cgi without a query :)
  360. # [13:06] <Philip`> 500 when you access it with a query, too
  361. # [13:06] <Philip`> Oh, no, it worked this time
  362. # [13:06] <Hixie> just finished writing them
  363. # [13:07] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/stocks/search.cgi?%00 gives a peculiar error message
  364. # [13:07] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-4137d0f19e4235ad) (Connection timed out)
  365. # [13:07] <Hixie> heh
  366. # [13:07] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  367. # [13:08] <Hixie> appears to be an apache bug
  368. # [13:08] <Hixie> works ok at the command line
  369. # [13:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: isn't it try/catch, not try/except (in io.js)?
  370. # [13:08] <Philip`> Why does http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/stocks/search.cgi?GO return BGLH?
  371. # [13:09] <Hixie> because it matches "Goodger", which has stock ticker BGLH
  372. # [13:09] <Hixie> zcorpan: fixing
  373. # [13:09] <Philip`> Oh
  374. # [13:09] <Hixie> search with a blank string to see all the symbols it knows
  375. # [13:10] <Hixie> there's no way to determine what labels it is matching them against though
  376. # [13:10] <Hixie> short of a brute force attack
  377. # [13:10] * hsivonen learns that the participant list of some W3C WGs is visible to Members only
  378. # [13:11] <Philip`> It seems kind of bad that http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/stocks/search.cgi?%47 doesn't work
  379. # [13:11] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/stocks/search.cgi?%00 gives 503
  380. # [13:12] <Philip`> zcorpan: Old :-p
  381. # [13:12] <zcorpan> oh
  382. # [13:12] <Hixie> Philip`: for %xx -- eh, whatever :-)
  383. # [13:13] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  384. # [13:19] <hsivonen> I wonder which ones are most common: unquoted, double-quoted or single-quoted attributes
  385. # [13:19] <hsivonen> my guess is double-quoted
  386. # [13:19] <Philip`> Double-quoted, then single-quoted, then unquoted
  387. # [13:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  388. # [13:20] <Philip`> or maybe not
  389. # [13:20] <Philip`> s/maybe//
  390. # [13:22] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/statestats.txt - state transitions from some collection of documents: BeforeAttributeValueState -> AttributeValueDoubleQuotedState: 1505620 BeforeAttributeValueState -> AttributeValueUnquotedState: 137469 BeforeAttributeValueState -> AttributeValueSingleQuotedState: 50487
  391. # [13:22] <Philip`> Argh, why does irssi forget to paste newlines?
  392. # [13:22] <Philip`> BeforeAttributeValueState -> AttributeValueDoubleQuotedState: 1505620
  393. # [13:22] <Philip`> BeforeAttributeValueState -> AttributeValueUnquotedState: 137469
  394. # [13:22] <Philip`> BeforeAttributeValueState -> AttributeValueSingleQuotedState: 50487
  395. # [13:22] <Philip`> suggests double-quoted is most popular by far, and single-quoted is least
  396. # [13:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  397. # [13:23] <Philip`> but I wouldn't necessarily recommend trusting me
  398. # [13:24] <zcorpan> Hixie: it would be nice with a close button on the spec updates box which makes the box disappear and not appear again until there's a later revision again
  399. # [13:24] <Hixie> remind me in a couple of days
  400. # [13:24] <Hixie> or just hit reload :-)
  401. # [13:25] <zcorpan> i've reloaded but it still says "You are reading r2025 but the latest revision is r2026"
  402. # [13:27] <hsivonen> It's fun how document published by Dublin Core Metadata Initiative start excessive visible metadata labeling
  403. # [13:28] <hsivonen> I would never have guessed that "Using Dublin Core" was the title if it hadn't "Title: " in front of it
  404. # [13:29] <Hixie> zcorpan: your browser is caching something
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  406. # [13:31] <Hixie> ok, workers spec is stable for another 12 hours. bed time.
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  409. # [13:38] <zcorpan> oh, 12h, maybe that'll be enough time to implement it
  410. # [13:40] <hsivonen> I wonder if HTML5 should define a mapping to Dublin Core from HTML5 and HTTP 1.1 native data
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  416. # [14:16] <Lachy> hsivonen, why? Does anyone actually do anything useful with Dublin Core?
  417. # [14:17] <hsivonen> Lachy: DC is all the rage for archivists
  418. # [14:17] <hsivonen> Lachy: DC has useful parts like title
  419. # [14:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: DC also has utterly bogus parts like date
  420. # [14:18] <hsivonen> (date isn't a field. it's a datatype)
  421. # [14:19] <hsivonen> Lachy: (I'm not a big metadata believer. Participation in two goverment metadata projects made me a non-believer.)
  422. # [14:19] <hsivonen> government even
  423. # [14:20] <hsivonen> Lachy: we could define the obvious.
  424. # [14:20] <Lachy> I like metadata when it actually serves a useful purpose for users. Like embedding track title, artist and album cover art, etc. in music, videos.
  425. # [14:20] <hsivonen> like: <title> is the DC title
  426. # [14:20] <hsivonen> HTTP Content-Type is the DC format
  427. # [14:21] <Lachy> I just found most of the DC metadata was largely useless for documents on the web
  428. # [14:21] <Lachy> ok, mappings like those could work
  429. # [14:21] <hsivonen> Lachy: of course it is. there's always more value in writing software that looks at <title> than in writing software that look for DC.Title in meta
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  434. # [15:09] <gDashiva> Anyone know the rationale for not allowing html entities in innerHTML on XHTML?
  435. # [15:10] <annevk> innerHTML simply uses an XML parser in that case without anything special
  436. # [15:11] <gDashiva> Yes, but why?
  437. # [15:12] <annevk> to not complicate things require support for things that are optional
  438. # [15:12] <annevk> or require*
  439. # [15:13] <gDashiva> Yet another roadblock to using xhtml
  440. # [15:15] <Lachy> gDashiva, how is missing entity refs a roadblock to using XHTML?
  441. # [15:16] <Lachy> they're not necessary. You can always use the numeric referece or JavaScript's \u#### syntax
  442. # [15:16] <gDashiva> Because innerHTML stops working where it used to work
  443. # [15:17] <Lachy> did any browser ever support entity refs in innerHTML for XHTML?
  444. # [15:17] <gDashiva> Opera does
  445. # [15:17] <gDashiva> I haven't tested safari
  446. # [15:17] <Lachy> even without the XHTML DOCTYPE in the document?
  447. # [15:18] <gDashiva> Yes
  448. # [15:19] <gDashiva> But if there's no doctype, it will error on entities in the initial markup
  449. # [15:21] <takkaria> why can't .innerHTML in XHTML use the html5 parser?
  450. # [15:22] <hsivonen> takkaria: Namespaces and tag inference
  451. # [15:22] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-e1cf91924f432503) (Connection timed out)
  452. # [15:23] <annevk> gDashiva, Opera doesn't use an XML parser for innerHTML afaict
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  475. # [16:48] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/dom/interfaces/HTMLElement/HTMLMediaElement/src/003.htm seems to freeze firefox
  476. # [16:50] <Philip`> Is it intentional that it claims to be testing "absent src=''" but actually has <source src="#">?
  477. # [16:52] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=pilgrim@64.241.37.140)
  478. # [16:54] <mpilgrim> Hixie: for class=note, class=issue screenreader problem -- try putting <span class="type">note</span> before each line, then hide it offscreen with span.type{display:block;position:absolute;top:-500px;width:1px;height:1px}
  479. # [16:55] <mpilgrim> jaws should read it but it won't show up in visual browsers
  480. # [16:55] <mpilgrim> adapted from http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleAccessibility11
  481. # [16:56] <mpilgrim> hmm, that page needs a link back to webaim's skiplinks article
  482. # [16:59] <Philip`> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080805#l-32
  483. # [17:00] <mpilgrim> well, great minds think alike
  484. # [17:00] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah
  485. # [17:00] <zcorpan> Philip`: it doesn't have src on the <video>/<audio> element
  486. # [17:01] <Philip`> zcorpan: Oh, right
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  488. # [17:17] <csarven> HTML5 appears to discontinue rel=section? In HTML4 @rel=section "Refers to a document serving as a section in a collection of documents." http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types.html#type-links -- Would you say this is sort of talking about the common navigation items that lead to main sections of the site?
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  490. # [17:18] <jcranmer> "JS and Flash must have the capacity to be slow... CSS... does not have to be slow"
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  498. # [17:53] <gsnedders> Hixie: DuplicateTermException: dom-messageport-close (i.e., multiple dfns of it)
  499. # [18:00] <annevk> Hixie also made like 150 revisions
  500. # [18:09] <gsnedders> Hmm.
  501. # [18:09] <gsnedders> I still can't see why onreadystatechange isn't being called :\
  502. # [18:14] * gsnedders plays around with null bytes in HTTP headers
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  506. # [18:36] <gsnedders> readystatechange isn't called when async=false in Gecko, as far as I can see
  507. # [18:37] <gsnedders> annevk: you have any idea?
  508. # [18:37] <gDashiva> gsnedders: It's a rather meaningless venture
  509. # [18:37] <gsnedders> gDashiva: Like life itself.
  510. # [18:37] <gDashiva> By the time the event can be handled, the entire request is finished
  511. # [18:38] <gsnedders> gDashiva: It works in Saf and Op and IE!
  512. # [18:40] <annevk> it's a bug
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  544. # [20:53] <takkaria> the guy who's posting to whatwg in an aggressive tone about javascript seem to be an <term ns="http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/08/16/specs">asshole</term>
  545. # [20:53] <takkaria> judging by his website, anyway
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  550. # [21:14] <zcorpan> hah, i was just thinking "hmm, nothing has happened on the whatwg blog for a while" and when i take a look, markp has posted a "This week in HTML 5" that hasn't yet reached my feed reader
  551. # [21:14] <hsivonen> now that Troy McLure is blogging about the new alt, I wonder if there will be comments
  552. # [21:17] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-67-180-49-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  553. # [21:17] <Hixie> hey, mpilgrim++
  554. # [21:17] <Hixie> i hope he does do that regularly!
  555. # [21:18] <zcorpan> hsivonen: pointer?
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  558. # [21:18] <annevk> zcorpan, it's a reference to markp I believe
  559. # [21:19] <zcorpan> ah
  560. # [21:20] <hsivonen> http://blog.whatwg.org/omit-alt#comment-7771
  561. # [21:20] <hsivonen> (should be McClure)
  562. # [21:22] <hsivonen> I feel that Namespaces have hurt me personally
  563. # [21:23] <hsivonen> perhaps I should blog about what proportion of lines of code in my XML serializer is devoted to prefix allocation
  564. # [21:23] <zcorpan> can something obvious be done in xml5 to make it better?
  565. # [21:24] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not as far as I can tell
  566. # [21:28] <hober> how, err, eloquent: http://blog.whatwg.org/omit-alt#comment-8380
  567. # [21:30] <Hixie> i was going to edit it, but wordpress doesn't let me
  568. # [21:30] <Hixie> oh well
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  570. # [21:35] <Hixie> ok i added a 'close' button, for whoever was asking for that
  571. # [21:36] <annevk> what did you want to do with the "fucker" comment?
  572. # [21:36] * annevk can edit it
  573. # [21:36] <Hixie> nah it's ok
  574. # [21:37] <Hixie> i was going to change it to be very polite formal english and then leave a comment saying "edited for language"
  575. # [21:37] <Hixie> but it's a year old, who cares
  576. # [21:37] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks!
  577. # [21:37] <annevk> fair enough
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  579. # [21:37] <Hixie> for reference, how do you edit comments?
  580. # [21:40] <zcorpan> Hixie: though, it pops up again after 30s
  581. # [21:41] <Hixie> oh
  582. # [21:41] <Hixie> heh
  583. # [21:43] * zcorpan wonders if the script could be made to work on the multipage version too, other than the first page
  584. # [21:44] <Hixie> man you people are never happy
  585. # [21:44] <Hixie> it probably could, speak to philip :-)
  586. # [21:45] <zcorpan> :)
  587. # [21:45] <zcorpan> Hixie: if you don't do anything, there's nothing to complain about :P
  588. # [21:46] <zcorpan> Hixie: when you do things there are always things that can be improved :)
  589. # [21:46] <Hixie> i'd complain if i did nothing :-P
  590. # [21:46] <Hixie> ok what simple demo can i do for shared workers
  591. # [21:46] <Hixie> i'm thinking maybe a party line demo
  592. # [21:49] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-46eeb1bb807d9d50)
  593. # [21:49] <annevk> Hixie, log in, hit the edit button next to the comment
  594. # [21:49] <gsnedders> Hixie: DuplicateTermException: dom-messageport-close (i.e., multiple dfns of it)
  595. # [21:50] <Hixie> annevk: i didn't see an edit button
  596. # [21:52] <annevk> Hixie, next to the date?
  597. # [21:52] <annevk> (it's a link, not a button; sorry)
  598. # [21:52] <Hixie> oh yeah!
  599. # [21:56] <zcorpan> didn't the spec have "Big Issue:" markers before?
  600. # [21:56] <zcorpan> i seem to remember Lachy implemented them
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  604. # [22:04] <Hixie> zcorpan: yes, went away when i wrote the annotation stuff
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  606. # [22:05] <Hixie> sam just said it wasn't productive to address feedback on proposals
  607. # [22:05] <Hixie> that's... an interesting opinion
  608. # [22:06] <hsivonen> RDFa would be more importable to HTML5 if it used full URIs instead of CURIEs
  609. # [22:06] <hsivonen> that would remove the Namespace dependency and the qnames-in-content anti-pattern
  610. # [22:07] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i've been told that CURIEs don't depend on namespaces
  611. # [22:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: how so?
  612. # [22:09] <zcorpan> wait let me dig it up
  613. # [22:17] <zcorpan> hmm can't find it in email, but i remember someone (rich?) saying that the xmlns mechanism is just one way to do CURIEs, you could equally well use any other mechanism like <meta> tags or other attributes
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  615. # [22:18] <zcorpan> which left me even more confused
  616. # [22:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ah. no you need a mapping scope even if it isn't established by xmlns
  617. # [22:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it seems that you'd still get all the problems of mapping scopes
  618. # [22:19] <zcorpan> yes
  619. # [22:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: have you considered supporting RDFa with full URIs instead of CURIEs?
  620. # [22:21] <zcorpan> i don't understand what problem curies is trying to solve
  621. # [22:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: they try the solve the problem of URIs being too long to be used as convenient identifiers
  622. # [22:22] <hsivonen> having the cake and eating it too
  623. # [22:22] <zcorpan> well apparently they weren't good enough for aria implementors :)
  624. # [22:23] <zcorpan> aria implementors wanted strings, not URIs
  625. # [22:23] <Lachy> Hixie, can you add one more link the spec update UI, pointing to: "http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=" + current_revision
  626. # [22:23] <hsivonen> I can't blame ARIA implementors for that
  627. # [22:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: to solve what problem?
  628. # [22:24] <Hixie> Lachy: :-P
  629. # [22:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: the problem of overlaying RDF-mappable metadata onto HTML with object literals as visible metadata without tantek's approval
  630. # [22:25] <Hixie> is that a rael problem?
  631. # [22:25] <Hixie> real, even
  632. # [22:25] <hsivonen> I don't know.
  633. # [22:26] * Hixie moves on
  634. # [22:28] <zcorpan> i wonder if i should write a script that handles CURIEs correctly, just to see how ugly it gets
  635. # [22:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: with which XML API?
  636. # [22:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: no with javascript
  637. # [22:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I read DOM as the API :-)
  638. # [22:30] <zcorpan> fair enough :)
  639. # [22:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is it even *possible* to handle CURIEs correctly if the DOM tree has undergone arbitrary scripted mutations?
  640. # [22:30] <hsivonen> unless you do some bookkeeping before any mutations take place
  641. # [22:30] <zcorpan> well i didn't intend it to be performant
  642. # [22:31] <hsivonen> I mean bookkeeping like traversing the DOM tree and storing a snapshot of the namespace mapping scope locally at each element node before mutations
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  644. # [22:33] <Hixie> Lachy: i added the link but it doesn't work, because the html5.org page is out of date (?)
  645. # [22:34] <zcorpan> Hixie: web-apps-tracker just tracks source, not whatwg-header
  646. # [22:34] <Hixie> oh, right, ok
  647. # [22:34] <Hixie> that would explain it
  648. # [22:34] <Hixie> so it'll work for the next revs :-)
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  652. # [22:41] <Lachy> Hixie, thanks
  653. # [22:42] <Lachy> did someone else moderate the 2 comments in the blog's moderation queue already? I got mail about them being there, but they're gone now.
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  656. # [22:45] <hsivonen> http://dubinko.info/blog/2008/07/28/erdf-11-proposal-discussion/
  657. # [22:45] <hsivonen> A new profile string of:
  658. # [22:45] <hsivonen> "http://purl.org/NET/erdf11/profile"
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  663. # [23:02] <Lachy> does eRDF prefixed class names with fixed prefixes, or with prefixes bound to a URI, like xmlns?
  664. # [23:03] <hsivonen> Lachy: bound to URI
  665. # [23:03] <hsivonen> in head
  666. # [23:04] <Lachy> ok. how unfortunate.
  667. # [23:05] <Lachy> it seems like using defined prefixes like foaf.depicts and cc.license would be sufficient
  668. # [23:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: how would that work for less known RDF vocabularies
  669. # [23:05] <hsivonen> ?
  670. # [23:06] <hsivonen> assuming you want to be able to map to RDF
  671. # [23:06] <jgraham> But Lachy what it I wanted to use cc.licese to represent the license plate of my clasic car ?!!
  672. # [23:06] <hober> heh
  673. # [23:07] * jgraham wonders who the end users consuming all this RDF are
  674. # [23:07] <hsivonen> how about eRDF5: like eRDF but with full URIs?
  675. # [23:08] <Lachy> hsivonen, jgraham, it would require communication with the community to settle on a prefix for a common vocabulary
  676. # [23:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: feed RDF into Naked Objects and you get generated UIs: http://www.nakedobjects.org/tutorial/index.shtml
  677. # [23:09] <Lachy> jgraham, the RDF model seems to be built mostly with publishing metadata in mind, rather than actually making use of what's published
  678. # [23:10] <Lachy> I'm yet to see any killer app for RDF metadata, unlike the many that exist for microformats
  679. # [23:11] <hsivonen> I haven't seen a killer app for microformats
  680. # [23:11] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  681. # [23:11] <Lachy> hsivonen, I've seen people extracting hcard information and storing it in a user's address book
  682. # [23:12] <Lachy> there was a tool somewhere that, given a URL to a page with hcard, would spit out a vcard file
  683. # [23:12] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'd call that an application but not a killer one
  684. # [23:13] <Lachy> there's also various calendar webapps.
  685. # [23:13] <Lachy> hsivonen, perhaps not, it's more than I've seen for RDF
  686. # [23:14] <Lachy> we might start seeing more soon. Firefox 3 has built in support for microformats, exposed through some extension api, so extension developers can make use of it
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  690. # [23:24] * Maurice is now known as sniper
  691. # [23:24] * sniper is now known as Maurice
  692. # [23:24] * Hixie agrees with hsivonen
  693. # [23:25] <Hixie> the future of microformat type data as far as i can tell lies in heuristic analysers like those that detect addresses in e-mails in yahoo mail or google mail
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  695. # [23:25] <Hixie> data that isn't explicitly structured, which the computer determines is of a particular type
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  697. # [23:26] <Hixie> certainly so far we as a race have had better luck convincing computers to detect data than we have had convincing humans to mark it up
  698. # [23:27] <roc> depends on the data
  699. # [23:28] <roc> we haven't been successful at getting computers to extract programs from text, for example
  700. # [23:28] <Hixie> sure. i'm talking primarily about the kind of data a microformat or RDF would be used for.
  701. # [23:29] <Hixie> for things for which we typically use a whole format, e.g. documents, programs, images, etc, users seem willing to write data in a semi-structured way (usually using tools, though not always)
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  704. # [23:35] <othermaciej> when it comes to user interface, even a fairly low rate of false-positive detection can be extremely irritating if it has a visible result
  705. # [23:35] <Hixie> indeed
  706. # [23:35] <othermaciej> thus, microformats are valuable as a higher-confidence indicator of particular structured data, perhaps trustworthy enough to decorate the UI
  707. # [23:36] <othermaciej> so far no one has turned this into a good UI
  708. # [23:36] <Hixie> so far it seems you get a better rate of detection if you rely on heuristics than if you rely on authors getting their semantics right
  709. # [23:36] <othermaciej> but it doesn't seem impossible
  710. # [23:36] <othermaciej> and many web sites have decent chunks of interesting microformat data
  711. # [23:36] <othermaciej> well, if microformats lead to a user-visible effect authors will be more likely to get them right
  712. # [23:36] <hsivonen> virtually all data detection in Mail.app is false positives
  713. # [23:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: <title> has a relatively high rate of bogus contents, to the point where google has to run heuristics on the contents of <title> to determine whether to show that or something else
  714. # [23:38] <Hixie> i guess maybe the right approach is more of a hybrid approach
  715. # [23:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: dc:title to rescue!
  716. # [23:38] <othermaciej> lol
  717. # [23:38] <Hixie> with the semantics being somewhat broad (e.g. <title>, as opposed to RDF triples) and the heuristics start from those hints and work from there
  718. # [23:38] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.230)
  719. # [23:38] <Hixie> s/start/starting/
  720. # [23:42] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-101bbf081d0326fd) ("The computer fell asleep")
  721. # [23:48] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.230)
  722. # [23:51] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host-n10-173.homerun.telia.com)
  723. # [23:57] <Lachy> wow, the Aurora concept browser is horribly cluttered. http://labs.mozilla.com/2008/08/introducing-the-concept-series-call-for-participation/ (see the first video on that page)
  724. # [23:58] <Lachy> http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/216897/mozilla-reveals-the-firefox-of-the-future.html
  725. # [23:59] <Lachy> it has some nice hypothetical features in it though, not sure how implementable they are though. But the UI is so bad, it makes it unusable even if they could be implemented
  726. # [23:59] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245)
  727. # Session Close: Thu Aug 07 00:00:00 2008

The end :)