/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-28 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 28 00:00:00 2008
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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14. # [00:23] <gsnedders> BenMillard: different classes of cars has its limits. In GT3, I once beat a friend, driving an F1 car, with a Mini.
15. # [00:23] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Yeah, so it seems
16. # [00:24] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
17. # [00:24] <BenMillard> gsnedders, we can arrange how to square up the costs in e-mail
18. # [00:25] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Yeah, seems sane
19. # [00:25] * gsnedders emails smedero with link to the logs
20. # [00:25] <BenMillard> gsnedders, as I won't be there the whole time I guess one of you should do the booking
21. # [00:25] <Hixie> i can drive trucks much more easily than sports cars in gta4
22. # [00:26] <BenMillard> Hixie, we're talking about Gran Turismo, but yes I have the same experience of past GTAs
23. # [00:26] <Hixie> i usually prefer to do the races (against sports cars) in a bus, because the bus can take more damange. :-)
24. # [00:26] <gsnedders> Hixie: Because of them skidding around more, due to their lack of weight?
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26. # [00:26] <Hixie> BenMillard: yeah, same kind of thing with GT
27. # [00:26] * gsnedders much prefers the sports cars, but he can cope with a madly light car
28. # [00:27] <BenMillard> the original CD case for Grand Theft Auto describes the handling as "Hollywood" and "outrageous" which, to a greater or lesser extent, has been true in all editions of it
29. # [00:27] <Hixie> gsnedders: partly, yes, but also with the bus i don't have to be as precise, and i can just plow through the competition and watch them splash into walls and buildings, while i don't even slow down
30. # [00:27] <gsnedders> There again, I don't manage to be within the top 400 around the Nürburgring in Forza 2 by being a bad driver :)
31. # [00:28] <gsnedders> Hixie: Peh. Being precise ain't hard. Though driving buses is fun.
32. # [00:29] <BenMillard> Hixie, do you have and of the 3D GTA's PC? if so, I did a "handling overhaul" for each of them as a mod: http://projectcerbera.com/gta/3/handling-overhaul http://projectcerbera.com/gta/vc/handling-overhaul http://projectcerbera.com/gta/sa/handling-overhaul
33. # [00:29] <BenMillard> s/and of/any of/
34. # [00:29] <Hixie> nice
35. # [00:29] <Hixie> i just have gta:vc and sa for ps2 and gta4 for ps3
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37. # [00:30] <Hixie> haven't played my ps3 in months, it needs to be set up in the new room
38. # [00:30] <BenMillard> Hixie, you're welcome to join the PS2 Gran Turismo part with gsnedders and I :)
39. # [00:30] <Hixie> :-)
40. # [00:30] <BenMillard> I'll be bringing my console as it's in near-perfect running order
41. # [00:30] <BenMillard> feel free to bring memory cards
42. # [00:30] <gsnedders> BenMillard: You have two controllers, I assume?
43. # [00:30] <Hixie> be aware of PAL vs NTSC issues
44. # [00:30] <BenMillard> gsnedders, yes
45. # [00:30] <gsnedders> Hixie: We're both in PAL Europe :)
46. # [00:30] <Hixie> oh right, meeting is in europe
47. # [00:31] <Hixie> cool!
48. # [00:32] * gsnedders ought to bring NFS:HP2 (IMO, the best NFS game)
49. # [00:32] <gsnedders> Crazy Taxi is scratched :(
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52. # [00:33] <Hixie> well if y'all are going to be bringing consoles, that's certainly going to make it more interesting
53. # [00:35] <gsnedders> Bringing a 360 by air is a bit too complicated, so I won't be.
54. # [00:35] <gsnedders> But I'll probably bring one or two PS2 games :)
55. # [00:35] <BenMillard> gsnedders, on closer inspection I have a single PS2 controller and two PS controlls
56. # [00:35] <gsnedders> BenMillard: k, if you remind me, I can bring a PS2 controller
57. # [00:35] <Dashiva> I have a ps2 controller that sends random signals without me pressing buttons
58. # [00:35] <gsnedders> That could be fun.
59. # [00:35] <Dashiva> I'm considering enrolling it in a fight game tournament
60. # [00:36] <Hixie> i have a slim pal ps2 i can bring if necessary
61. # [00:36] <Hixie> and a ps2 controller and some games (like worms 3d, which is great for parties)
62. # [00:37] <Hixie> but the ps3 is bigger than my backpack, which is all i'm planning on bringing
63. # [00:37] <BenMillard> Hixie, I have the slim one
64. # [00:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: I think the simple solution is we let BenMillard bring the console :)
65. # [00:38] <Hixie> i'm just sayin' :-)
66. # [00:38] <BenMillard> unless you know how to connect 2 together, which could be awesome
67. # [00:38] <BenMillard> although one 1 TV...hmm
68. # [00:38] <BenMillard> *only 1 TV
69. # [00:38] <gsnedders> For GT3 at least you can use the Firewire port…
70. # [00:38] <gsnedders> But I don't think that's on the slim console
71. # [00:40] <gsnedders> GT4 supports LAN with ethernet
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73. # [00:53] <BenMillard> LAN requires 1 TV per player: http://www.us.playstation.com/Content/OGS/SCUS-97328/Site/gt4manual.pdf
74. # [00:54] <BenMillard> (page "twenty")
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76. # [01:01] <gsnedders> peh.
77. # [01:03] <BenMillard> Hixie, don't bother bringing your PS2. we'll only have 1 TV
78. # [01:04] <Philip`> Bring a TV
79. # [01:04] <BenMillard> lol
80. # [01:04] <Philip`> as long as it's flatscreen
81. # [01:04] <gsnedders> Actually, I have a video capture thing for my computer!
82. # [01:05] <Philip`> Do any laptops have video-in that's compatible with the PS2's outputs?
83. # [01:05] <gsnedders> Like, one that has next to no lag and can be used with a PS2
84. # [01:05] <Philip`> Ah
85. # [01:05] <gsnedders> And it's what I normally use with my PS2
86. # [01:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: Do bother bringing your PS2. We have two TVs.
87. # [01:06] <gsnedders> We also need two copies of GT4 to do that though
88. # [01:06] <gsnedders> And mine is scratched, but mostly works
89. # [01:06] <gsnedders> Just need to reset the console after every race :P
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93. # [01:14] <Hixie> hey my interview is up
94. # [01:14] <Hixie> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/programming-and-development/?p=718
95. # [01:15] <BenMillard> gsnedders, that's good news :)
96. # [01:16] <BenMillard> do you want to bring the necessary network cable and learn how it all works so I don't have to? :P
97. # [01:16] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I've read this and it seems pretty exhaustive: http://mastergt.250free.com/GT4/LAN_GT4/GT4_LANs.html
98. # [01:17] <BenMillard> Hixie, "While Ian and I have had our disagreements over a few details of the specification, I have come to respect him immensely for the work that he puts into the spec on a daily basis." I think anyone who gives you a chance has that experience.
99. # [01:19] <Hixie> aww
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101. # [01:25] <Dashiva> What a lie. We all know Hixie works most during the night ;)
102. # [01:26] <Hixie> i even mention that in the interview :-)
103. # [01:27] <BenMillard> Hixie, you wrote "I don’t think that realistically speaking HTML5 is going to make people write better markup." Well, simplifying the markup for accessible tables will realistically improve new tables markup written by the sites which try to be accessible, once we have implementations showing how well it works.
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105. # [01:27] <BenMillard> although that's likely to be a minority of the web for some time yet, I must admit
106. # [01:29] <Hixie> yeah i think i go on to mention that we've done some things to make things a little better (like the /> thing)
107. # [01:29] <Hixie> i hope we have some effect, i'm just not holding my breath :-)
108. # [01:29] <Hixie> hsivonen said that in his study so far he has yet to find a single page with zero errors
109. # [01:30] <BenMillard> gsnedders, just saw this: "Can you justify the cost of coming for a whole week now?" hmm, that's an idea
110. # [01:31] <BenMillard> since I'm paying an equal share anyway, I might as well be there for it :)
111. # [01:31] <Dashiva> It feels like beekeeping pops up inordinately often in examples
112. # [01:33] <Hixie> Dashiva: it's not accidental
113. # [01:33] <Hixie> Dashiva: let me know if you can work out why :-)
114. # [01:33] <Hixie> (nothing to do with me or whatwg or html5)
115. # [01:33] <Hixie> though if you look at html5 it'll give you a hint
116. # [01:34] <roc> ooh ooh I know this one
117. # [01:35] <Hixie> it's not very deep or anything
118. # [01:39] <Hixie> man, every time i look at this page i find more errors http://puysl.com/view.htm
119. # [01:39] <Hixie> and note that it was updated this month!
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121. # [01:39] <Dashiva> Is it like herding cats?
122. # [01:39] <Hixie> it's a regularly updated page!
123. # [01:40] <Hixie> Dashiva: it's a reference to something that was mentioned in passing in the late 90s
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125. # [01:42] <BenMillard> Hixie, wow...that wins the prize for stupidest way to mark up table headers :)
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127. # [01:45] <BenMillard> Hixie, you said "A big part of my job ends up being reinterpreting what people are asking for into what they really want." I think that's what causes much of the initial confusion and feelings of being dismissed; it's a necessary but unnatural response.
128. # [01:46] <BenMillard> (I mean, your response to those requests is necessary but unnatural, since they'd normally be taken on face value)
129. # [01:48] <BenMillard> Hixie, I couldn't have put this better myself: "If there’s one thing I’ve learnt through the extensive research we’ve done for HTML5, it’s that authors, on the aggregate, act in very surprising ways that don’t really match my intuition."
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131. # [02:00] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/338
132. # [02:01] <Hixie> BenMillard: yeah, i think you're right (re: why people sometimes feel dismissed)
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134. # [02:01] <Hixie> and sometimes i just do dismiss ideas because i don't understand them, probably :-)
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136. # [02:01] <Dashiva> Hixie: It's obviously just an example of distributed extensibility
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138. # [02:05] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/339 is a saner size
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140. # [02:07] <Hixie> http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/6ycxe/html_youre_doing_it_wrong_based_on/
141. # [02:12] <BenMillard> Hixie, can you remember (or better yet, find) where in the logs we talked about meeting at TPAC 2008? I've spent an hour trying but failed completely.
142. # [02:12] <BenMillard> oh, I guess it's possible the logging was down during the time we were talking about it...
143. # [02:12] <Hixie> i don't recall talking much about it :-)
144. # [02:12] <BenMillard> you only said an entry or two
145. # [02:13] <Hixie> oh that was yesterday iirc
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147. # [02:14] <BenMillard> aha, then it may have been in the small hours when logging wasn't working: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080827
148. # [02:14] <BenMillard> oh well
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153. # [02:30] <guillebravo6> I'm new to this group
154. # [02:30] <guillebravo6> how's it going everybody?
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157. # [02:33] <BenMillard> hello there, guillebravo6
158. # [02:33] <Hixie> welcome, guillebravo6
159. # [02:34] <guillebravo6> thanks guys
160. # [02:34] <BenMillard> it's currently the middle of the night in Europe and quite late in USA, so not many people active AFAICT
161. # [02:34] <guillebravo6> yeah I understand
162. # [02:35] <guillebravo6> this is a reddit group right?
163. # [02:35] <guillebravo6> are people on Digg, StumbleUpon, Delicious, etc.......?
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165. # [02:40] <franksalim> guillebravo6, what do you mean by a reddit group? i use reddit, but not in connection to #whatwg
166. # [02:40] <guillebravo6> ok
167. # [02:40] <guillebravo6> I wasn't sure
168. # [02:40] <Hixie> this is an irc channel for discussing html5 development as part of the whatwg.org project
169. # [02:40] <guillebravo6> I was just browsing around and saw Reddit on this channgel
170. # [02:40] <guillebravo6> *channel
171. # [02:40] <guillebravo6> no biggie
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202. # [03:37] <Hixie> takkaria: yt? did you ever implement the svgwg proposal?
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205. # [03:57] <takkaria> Hixie: no, I didn't. I intended to but then Henri sent his rebuttal and I figured it was definitely not worth it
206. # [03:57] <Hixie> k
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214. # [04:13] <Hixie> right, feedback on the svgwg proposal sent
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225. # [05:33] <Hixie> is there anything i should be working on?
226. # [05:33] <Hixie> i'm out of prioritised stuff, so if there's anything important for me to work on, let me know
227. # [05:33] <Hixie> otherwise i'll just go back to dealing with the oldest feedback
228. # [05:40] <jcranmer> Hixie: specifying what should happen if authors don't comply?
229. # [05:41] <jcranmer> e.g., where should they send their first-borns?
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258. # [08:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, obviously, there are no pages with no errors when you move the goalposts from HTML 4.01 Transitional
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262. # [08:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: oh, right, you're assuming html5
263. # [08:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: do you have the ability to do html4 transitional validation?
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267. # [08:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: I have to the precision validator.nu can now do it
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273. # [09:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: that... wasn't english. but i assume it's a yes? :-)
274. # [09:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: it was a yes. (s/have to/have, to/)
275. # [09:27] <Hixie> ohh, i see what you're saying
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280. # [09:46] * annevk could bring a Wii
281. # [09:50] <annevk> haha, IE8 has a "Compatibility View" button
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286. # [10:30] <annevk> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/programming-and-development/?p=718 is good Hixie
287. # [10:30] <Hixie> cool, glad you like it
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295. # [10:57] <Lachy> From the interview: "Another topic that’s received a lot of feedback is that we dropped acronym in favor of just using abbr, and a lot of people complained, though few could agree on what exactly the two elements would mean if we kept both."
296. # [10:57] <Lachy> the only viable solution if both were kept, is to define both as synonyms of each other
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305. # [11:27] <zcorpan> interesting, instead of setting status to "fixed", microsoft set it to "not reproducable" when a bug i've reported has been fixed in ie8b2
306. # [11:28] <zcorpan> though perhaps that's a good way to get the fix verified by the reporter
307. # [11:31] <Philip`> I've had two marked as Fixed
308. # [11:31] <Philip`> (and they are actually fixed, I think)
309. # [11:32] <Philip`> but one Not Reproducible, and I don't think it's actually fixed but maybe my test case was unreliable
310. # [11:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: interesting typo in "how often the local property is within the namespace"
311. # [11:35] <Hixie> (property is -> properties)
312. # [11:38] <Lachy> OMG, Microsoft's download site for IE8 popped up an ad for me to install silverlight, even though I still have silverlight installed from when I needed it to watch videos on nbcolympics.com
313. # [11:39] <Hixie> lordy, now hsivonen is suggesting that whatwg.org use a CDN. :-P
314. # [11:39] <zcorpan> hsivonen: fwiw, i think you'd save time by learning those 3 namespace URIs
315. # [11:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: instead of looking them up
316. # [11:40] <Hixie> i never learnt the HTML4 DOCTYPE
317. # [11:40] <Hixie> that's the main reason for the HTML5 synax. :-D
318. # [11:40] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml http://www.w3.org/2000/svg http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink
319. # [11:40] <zcorpan> <!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">
320. # [11:41] <zcorpan> gotta to
321. # [11:41] <zcorpan> go
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323. # [11:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: not a typo. artifact of a different text input method
324. # [11:43] <Lachy> I learned all the HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0/1.1 DOCTYPEs. It's not that hard, since the follow a common pattern
325. # [11:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: no, I suggested that only n.whatwg.org be on a CDN
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327. # [11:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: with xmlns dereferencing going on, it seems like a bad idea that W3C isn't separating its ns URIs from the rest on the DNS level
328. # [11:44] <Lachy> hsivonen, wouldn't that be a costly thing to maintain?
329. # [11:44] * annevk read http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/history found http://www.hixie.ch/specs/html/apps/web-apps-1 and realized almost nothing survived
330. # [11:45] <Philip`> Lachy: Pay for it by embedding adverts
331. # [11:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes. the point of what I wrote is to shield people who don't want the Power of RDF from the RDF Tax. However, someone needs to pay for the CDN
332. # [11:46] <hsivonen> Lachy: so to make the cost entirely borne by the RDF community, you'd need a way to make the RDF community to pay the CDN bill
333. # [11:47] <hsivonen> I haven't learden the HTML 4 doctypes either. I always copy them from my doctype page
334. # [11:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah that was intentional when i minted n.whatwg.org
335. # [11:48] <Hixie> hsivonen: speech recognition eh? how is it going?
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338. # [11:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: needs fixing
339. # [11:49] <Lachy> Philip`, adverts on a server intended purely for delivering machine processable data, rather than human consumable data, seems rather ineffective.
340. # [11:51] <Philip`> Lachy: Not at all - you just have to exploit how the machines process that data, so that the adverts get shown to those machines' users
341. # [11:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: speech recognition is more accurate than Ink, though
342. # [11:51] <Hixie> yeah well
343. # [11:51] <Hixie> ink sucks :-P
344. # [11:51] <Lachy> although I don't particularly like the whole idea, one way to pay for it would be to require software that intends to use it, has to pay licence fees. That way it's paid for by those who use it.
345. # [11:51] <Hixie> that would work
346. # [11:52] <Hixie> we could optimise away actually setting anything up if we did that
347. # [11:52] <hsivonen> lol
348. # [11:52] <Philip`> Use Google Cache as a free CDN
349. # [11:52] <Lachy> LOL
350. # [11:53] <hsivonen> speaking of free CDNs, what pays for Coral?
351. # [11:53] <Lachy> or Freenet
352. # [11:53] <hsivonen> is NYU bankrolling it out of the goodness of their hearts?
353. # [11:55] <annevk> CDN?
354. # [11:55] <hsivonen> Content Distribution Network
355. # [11:55] <annevk> ta
356. # [11:56] <Philip`> hsivonen: I think it's running on PlanetLab, which I think is mostly run by universities, presumably from various sources of research funding
357. # [11:57] <Lachy> oh, cool. it works http://lachy.id.au.nyud.net/log/
358. # [12:01] <Philip`> "As of January 2006, it receives about 25 million requests per day from more than 1 million unique clients." - that sounds like it's probably only tens of megabytes a second, which isn't particularly extreme
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363. # [12:31] <hsivonen> hmm. I could put accessibility APIs to use and define Typinator macros for namespace URIs
364. # [12:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: on a.v.n/htmlparser/, "The parser core compiles on Google Web Toolkit and in being made more portable to other programming languages.", s/in/is/
365. # [12:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: fixed. thanks
366. # [12:35] <annevk> Lachy, why the double domain?
367. # [12:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: your TreeBuilder interface is quite an interesting view into what i specced
368. # [12:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: what is startTag() used for?
369. # [12:39] <Lachy> annevk, .nydu.net is the Coral CDN. http://www.coralcdn.org/
370. # [12:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: the tokenizer calls startTag() when it reports a start tag token
371. # [12:39] <Hixie> sure but why?
372. # [12:39] <Hixie> as in, what was your use case?
373. # [12:40] <hsivonen> the code for processing start tag tokens needs to be somewhere
374. # [12:40] <hsivonen> the code structure is inspired by SAX
375. # [12:40] <Hixie> oh you mean that's the method where you have to implement the whole tree construction?
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377. # [12:41] <annevk> Lachy, interesting
378. # [12:41] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
379. # [12:41] <hsivonen> havinge a SAX-inspired structure has certain benefits:
380. # [12:41] <hsivonen> 1) I can make a streaming SAX mode with reasonable ease
381. # [12:42] <hsivonen> 2) I avoid heap-allocating objects for tokens
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383. # [12:42] <Hixie> oh i agree that sax makes sense, and i understand the concept of calling a method for each type of token
384. # [12:42] <hsivonen> 3) the tree builder rules are easier to implement token-major mode-minor than the way the spec puts them
385. # [12:42] <Hixie> i was just looking to see what one would have to implement to get document.write()
386. # [12:43] <Hixie> since you mention having to implement TreeBuilder to get that
387. # [12:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: TreeBuilder and Tokenizer don't implement document.write().
388. # [12:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: they just have capability to get out of the way
389. # [12:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: see gwt-src
390. # [12:44] <Hixie> is that online anywhere?
391. # [12:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: the subclass of TreeBuilder there requests suspensions when it wants a script to run
392. # [12:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: no, not as HTML. only in the .zip
393. # [12:45] <Hixie> ah ok
394. # [12:45] <hsivonen> and in svn
395. # [12:45] <Hixie> oh well no worries, i was just poking around
396. # [12:45] <Hixie> putting off replying about irrelevant=""
397. # [12:45] <hsivonen> when suspension is requested, control returns from the Tokenizer to the driver that pushes data to tokenizer
398. # [12:46] <hsivonen> so that class is responsible for holding onto the remainder of the buffer that was being tokenized
399. # [12:46] <hsivonen> and pushing the document.write stuff meanwhile
400. # [12:46] <Hixie> ah
401. # [12:46] <hsivonen> the code breaks with nested document.write in Gecko and with nested SVG scripts, ATM
402. # [12:47] <Hixie> those are a pain to get right
403. # [12:47] <hsivonen> my next item is figuring out how nested scripts run in XML
404. # [12:47] <Hixie> even in english those were a pain to get right
405. # [12:47] <Hixie> nested scripts fail in html5 right now
406. # [12:47] <Hixie> as in, the spec is wrong
407. # [12:47] <Hixie> in fact <script> in general fails in html5 right now in xml
408. # [12:47] <hsivonen> I think the code exposes a difference in Gecko and WebKit script executino details
409. # [12:47] <Hixie> assuming the parser inserts the element before the element's children
410. # [12:48] <Hixie> (not sure how to fix it, since there's no xml parser spec)
411. # [12:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: SAX to DOM tree building is well understood
412. # [12:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's the exact byte of WF error that is ill-defined
413. # [12:49] <Hixie> yeah i'll probably just say "for html documents: when it is inserted... for xml documents: when you parse the end tag..."
414. # [12:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: conceptually, it would be nice if HTML side inserted early, too, but started execution at end tag
415. # [12:52] <Hixie> we could do that i guess
416. # [12:52] <Hixie> though then we have to handle DOM-append separately from parser-append
417. # [12:52] <hsivonen> yeah.
418. # [12:52] <Hixie> which will make things exciting for you over in GWT land
419. # [12:53] <Hixie> and we have to handle parser-append followed by DOM-append of the same node followed by parser-end-tag
420. # [12:53] <Lachy> woo hoo! A new "interoperable" DRM scheme that invades my privacy by requiring me to register my devices. Just what I wanted! http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080827-open-market-video-drm-aims-to-let-1000-retailers-bloom.html
421. # [12:53] <hsivonen> the gwt land code fakes "start execution on end tag" by inserting a placeholder and replacing it on end tag
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423. # [12:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: nice
424. # [12:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: hope nobody takes a reference to the fake :-D
425. # [12:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: so I naively thought that having one level of placeholders was OK
426. # [12:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: until zcorpan tried to nest SVG scripts
427. # [12:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan always finds holes in my code
428. # [12:54] <Hixie> heh
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434. # [13:13] <annevk> Hixie, any chance the icons for the Web Apps spec can be hosted on whatwg.org? all the extra requests are a bit of a pain
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436. # [13:13] <Lachy> OMG, IE8b2 still hasn't fixed that annoying bug/design flaw with Ctrl+L. It should focus the address bar like a normal browser, instead of popping up the Open URL dialog :-(
437. # [13:13] <Hixie> the reason they aren't is to avoid any suggestion of copyright violation. (why are they a pain?)
438. # [13:13] <Hixie> Lachy: use alt-d, most browsers support that too
439. # [13:14] <annevk> fetching them just seems painfully slow
440. # [13:14] <Lachy> oh, I didn't know that. But I'd prefer if Ctrl+L worked, since that's what I'm used to, and I use Cmd+L for Mac browsers
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442. # [13:21] <Hixie> Lachy: (or f6, in ie)
443. # [13:21] <Hixie> annevk: odd
444. # [13:23] <Lachy> woah, IE's comment handling is buggered up. http://html5.lachy.id.au/output?data=%3C%21DOCTYPE+html%3E%0D%0A%3Ctitle%3EBogus+IE8+Conditional+Comments%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3EYou+should+not+see+anything+below+this+line.%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3C%21--%5Bif+IE+lt+8%5D%3EFAIL%3C%21%5Bendif%5D--%3E&type=text%2Fhtml%3B+charset%3DUTF-8
445. # [13:23] <Lachy> that's an incorrectly written conditional comment, but still, ouputting it like that seems wrong
446. # [13:23] <Hixie> what does it do?
447. # [13:24] <Lachy> It outputs "<!--[if IE lt 8]>FAIL<![endif]-->" literally on the page
448. # [13:24] <Hixie> woah
449. # [13:24] <Hixie> weird
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451. # [13:24] <Lachy> note that the conditional comment should actually be [if lt IE 8] for it to work as intended, but I always get it backwards
452. # [13:25] <Lachy> where do I file bugs for IE?
453. # [13:25] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-178-219.dsl.telstraclear.net)
454. # [13:26] <Hixie> i believe prayer is the most effective method
455. # [13:27] <Dashiva> I seem to recall there being some internal thing that you had to pass through five NDAs to reach, and then needed invitation
456. # [13:28] <Lachy> yeah, there is somewhere, but I can't remember where it is
457. # [13:28] <Lachy> Dear Microsoft Gods, please fix the bugs I have found with your browser. Amen.
458. # [13:29] <Dashiva> Why limit yourself to only the bugs you found? :)
459. # [13:30] <Lachy> it's not as if they're miracle workers. I at least need to give them some info about what is wrong.
460. # [13:31] <Hixie> the gods aren't miracle workers?
461. # [13:31] <Lachy> Hixie, just the microsoft gods.
462. # [13:31] <Hixie> ah ok
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464. # [13:34] <hsivonen> w00t. making typinator macros for ns uris was a good idea
465. # [13:35] * gsnedders sighs
466. # [13:35] <gsnedders> the TPAC is going to be crazy fun. Two PS2, three geeks, are far too much geekery
467. # [13:36] <Lachy> grr. Apparently, it's supposed to be connect.microsoft.com where you can submit bug reports. But after signing in, it asks me to update my profile. I check that everything is ok, click continue and it takes my right back to the beginning.
468. # [13:36] <Lachy> Now, where do i file a bug report about the bug reporting system?
469. # [13:36] <Hixie> q.v. earlier comments
470. # [13:37] <Lachy> maybe I should just complain directly to Chris Wilson
471. # [13:39] * annevk learns about "conundrum"
472. # [13:39] * Joins: itpastorn (n=itpastor@ne.keryx.se)
473. # [13:39] <Lachy> ah, I see. The website only works in IE
474. # [13:41] * gsnedders wonders what you do if an IE8 beta has a bug stopping you from using that site.
475. # [13:45] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
476. # [13:45] <Lachy> I don't know. but I can't actually find the Report a damn bug link, or equivalent anywhere.
477. # [13:46] <Lachy> this is getting annoying
478. # [13:46] <annevk> Hixie, dom-command-ro-hidden is removed from IDL (where it was dom-command-hidden) but not from prose
479. # [13:46] <Lachy> although I can see one bug listed that I had filed in 2006 about another product. Still not fixed :-)
480. # [13:46] <annevk> + title="command-element">command</code>, <code
481. # [13:46] <annevk> + title="bb-command">command</code>.</p>
482. # [13:46] <annevk> also seems wrong
483. # [13:47] <Hixie> dom-command-ro-hidden and dom-command-hidden are unrelated
484. # [13:47] <Hixie> one is gone the other is not
485. # [13:47] <Hixie> fixed the bb issue
486. # [13:47] <annevk> oh, there's a separate Command interface?
487. # [13:48] <Hixie> yeah
488. # [13:48] <Hixie> not quite sure what i'm gonna do with it
489. # [13:48] <Lachy> ah, apparently I need to register as a beta tester to do it. http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/30/wanted-ie8-beta-testers.aspx
490. # [13:48] <Hixie> we'll see
491. # [13:48] <hsivonen> bah. SVG elements don't have innerHTML in Gecko.
492. # [13:49] <annevk> Hixie, I think the thing with the icons is that it takes some time to make the request to all these other servers, which gives quite a bit of overhead over it all coming from whatwg.org
493. # [13:49] <Hixie> annevk: so?
494. # [13:50] <annevk> in Opera that delays search interaction with the document
495. # [13:50] <Hixie> annevk: file a bug
496. # [13:50] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228000031.adsl.alicedsl.de)
497. # [13:51] <Hixie> on a totally different note, wtf is up with my mac's menu widget things. every now and then, the time machine menu, the bluetooth menu, and the wifi menu go totally batshit crazy, reverting to their initial settings and losing all interaction.
498. # [13:51] <Hixie> e.g. the wifi icon disappears and it claims to be offline in the menu, even though wifi is fine
499. # [13:51] <Hixie> and the bluetooth menu reverts to kThisThat menu labels
500. # [13:51] <Hixie> and the time machine menu says no backup ever ran
501. # [13:51] <hsivonen> Gecko and WebKit have XHTML and SVG nested script execution interop
502. # [13:51] <hsivonen> and XHTML and SVG are consistent
503. # [13:51] <hsivonen> Opera does something crazy
504. # [13:51] <Philip`> Lachy: For registering connect.microsoft.com, try not using Opera - I think I had problems with that
505. # [13:52] <Hixie> seems to happen around the same time that iTunes freaks out over my iPod touch and starts not recognising it
506. # [13:52] <hsivonen> demo: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/script-execution.xhtml
507. # [13:52] <Hixie> i wonder what on earth is up with this machine
508. # [14:42] * Disconnected
509. # [14:42] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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511. # [14:42] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
512. # [14:42] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
513. # [14:53] * annevk almost replied to RB
514. # [14:53] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
515. # [14:53] <annevk> I have like 400 e-mails in drafts
516. # [14:53] <annevk> a lot of it is probably due to Opera's autosave feature though
517. # [14:53] <annevk> haha
518. # [14:53] <annevk> blog: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/7585098.stm
519. # [14:53] * gsnedders wonders whether to just call the specGen cameleon and be done with it
520. # [14:53] <Lachy> gsnedders, chameleon is spent with an h, unless the misspelling is intentional
521. # [14:53] <Lachy> in which case, I think it's a bad name
522. # [14:53] * gsnedders yawns
523. # [14:53] <Lachy> pick a name that's easy to spell and is relevant
524. # [14:53] * gsnedders is half-asleep
525. # [14:57] <gsnedders> Lachy: What is relevant though? htmlpostprocessor?
526. # [14:57] <Lachy> call it sg
527. # [14:57] <gsnedders> sg? Why?
528. # [14:57] <Lachy> it's consistent with the linux approach of using the shortest possible, and totally unclear abbreviations for command names
529. # [14:57] <Lachy> sg = Spec Gen
530. # [14:57] <annevk> I thought alonis was quite good
531. # [14:57] <Philip`> You have to have versioning information in case you release another one later, so you'd have to call it SG-1
532. # [14:57] <Lachy> Philip`, that's what I was thinking :-)
533. # [14:57] <annevk> SG-1 wfm
534. # [14:57] <Lachy> I don't like the hyphen in command names though
535. # [14:57] * gsnedders bets SG-1 is a trademark
536. # [14:57] <annevk> use alonis then and move on
537. # [14:57] <Lachy> what is alonis?
538. # [14:57] <annevk> or chameleon
539. # [14:57] <Philip`> Trademarks don't have global scope
540. # [14:57] <gsnedders> sg is bad anyway because it isn't really specific to specs
541. # [14:57] <Philip`> so it's only a problem if someone has released similar software under a trademarked name SG-1
542. # [14:57] <annevk> Lachy, a species
543. # [14:57] <gsnedders> annevk: No anoles is
544. # [14:57] <Lachy> really? what kind of animal?
545. # [14:57] <gsnedders> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoles
546. # [14:57] <gsnedders> Lizard
547. # [14:57] <annevk> oops
548. # [14:57] <gsnedders> anolis is a genera of the anoles though
549. # [14:57] <gsnedders> seemingly
550. # [14:58] <annevk> right, I did mean Anolis
551. # [14:58] <annevk> oh well, need to go somewhere
552. # [14:58] <gsnedders> Anolis it is.
553. # [14:58] <Philip`> Anoliser
554. # [14:58] <gsnedders> But versioning may be useful
555. # [15:00] * Disconnected
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558. # [15:00] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
559. # [15:00] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
560. # [15:00] * Joins: jmb^ (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
561. # [15:00] <annevk> gsnedders, don't worry about versioning too much until it becomes an actual problem
562. # [15:01] * Lachy moans about the choice of a terrible name and moves on. Oh well.
563. # [15:03] <annevk> deployment of this tool is not going to be widespread anyway
564. # [15:24] * Disconnected
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567. # [15:25] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
568. # [15:25] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
569. # [15:32] <Lachy> Hixie, bug in the spec update notification script: "This specification has been updated. You are reading r2120 but the latest revision is r2119 ("Rename the 'irrelevant' attribute to 'hidden'.")"
570. # [15:48] <krijnh> (Sorry for crappy connection & logs)
571. # [15:48] <gsnedders> If anyone finds any bugs in <http://stuff.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/html5.html>, do tell me
572. # [15:48] <Lachy> notice that it things 2120 is older than 2119
573. # [15:48] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
574. # [15:48] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
575. # [15:48] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
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577. # [15:48] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
578. # [15:48] <Lachy> woah, this mail gives some interesting insight into the way authors might abuse workers in inefficient ways. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0823.html
579. # [15:48] <Philip`> gsnedders: The copyright statement is a smaller font than in the whatwg.org version
580. # [15:48] <Philip`> Maybe that's because the whatwg.org version is in quirks mode?
581. # [15:48] <Lachy> Philip`, is that in Opera? It's the same size in Firefox.
582. # [15:48] <Philip`> Ooh, I've found a bug: The new spec-gen uses unquoted attributes and therefore the source looks hideous
583. # [15:48] <Philip`> Lachy: Yes
584. # [15:48] <Lachy> oh, yeah, it should use quoted attributed cause they do look better
585. # [15:48] <Lachy> gsnedders, is the attribute quoting an optional feature?
586. # [15:48] <Lachy> Philip`, in IE, the copyright statement is larger in the whatwg.org version :-)
587. # [15:48] <Lachy> hooray for interopability! ;-)
588. # [15:48] <Philip`> It's called "quirks" for a reason :-)
589. # [15:48] <Lachy> hmm. weird. I just realised that Snickers in Norway have white-coloured nougat, wheras in Australia, they have chocolate-coloured nougat
590. # [15:48] <Philip`> Does anyone happen to know how http://philip.html5.org/docs/quirks.txt would need to be updated for IE8?
591. # [15:48] <Lachy> Philip`, no idea. But if you have a TC, I can run it for you
592. # [15:48] <kangax> Lachy: white-colored in US as well
593. # [15:48] <Lachy> what?! OMG! that's crazy
594. # [15:48] <Philip`> Lachy: I have some code to test quirks/standards, but I'll need to extend that to detect the quirks/IE7-bugs/IE8-bugs modes, which I suppose I'll do at some point in the future
595. # [15:49] <Lachy> kangax, is it the same with milky ways too?
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599. # [15:52] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
600. # [15:52] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
601. # [15:52] <Lachy> Anyway, just 24 days till I get back to eating normal coloured, correctly named chocolate bars :-) Woo Hoo!
602. # [15:52] <Philip`> kangax: Most non-trivial canvas tests don't work in Excanvas at all
603. # [15:53] <krijn> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20080828 - yuk! Does this happen a lot?
604. # [15:53] <Philip`> Also I couldn't get Excanvas to work at all in IE8b1
605. # [15:53] <kangax> damn
606. # [15:53] <Philip`> In any case it's likely to be the same as in IE <8, because nobody uses VML so they wouldn't have put any work into optimising it, I assume
607. # [15:54] <kangax> Philip`: have you heard of any progress about silverlight-based excanvas?
608. # [15:54] <kangax> (their google group seems to be somewhat dead)
609. # [15:55] <Philip`> kangax: I'm not aware of any IE canvas implementations that have got much beyond proof-of-concept stage
610. # [15:59] * Quits: codedread (n=schiller@c-24-13-43-191.hsd1.il.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
611. # [15:59] <kangax> Philip`: I wish I had some time to tackle with it. Currently working on a parser that allows to output "svg path" on canvas.
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615. # [16:07] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
616. # [16:07] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
617. # [16:28] * Disconnected
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620. # [16:28] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
621. # [16:28] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
622. # [16:28] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
623. # [16:29] <Lachy> and that way you don't end up with some attributes having quotes where necessary, and others not, within the same document. Rather, you end up with everything being consistent
624. # [16:30] <gsnedders> Hixie doesn't seem to quote everything either
625. # [16:31] <Philip`> He's crazy too
626. # [16:31] <gsnedders> Whoever thought any of us were sane though?
627. # [16:31] <Philip`> Unquoted attributes are objectively ugly, and if you disagree then you're wrong
628. # [16:33] <jgraham> Philip`: Time for your medication again I see ;)
629. # [16:34] * gsnedders wonders whether he can take more paracetamol yet
630. # [16:34] * jgraham has no objection to changing html5lib defaults here fwiw
631. # [16:34] <jgraham> Nor to leaving them as is
632. # [16:35] * gsnedders notes that changing them will break backwards compatibility, as the option names will have to be changed
633. # [16:35] <gsnedders> Or maybe not
634. # [16:35] * gsnedders headdesks
635. # [16:35] * gsnedders wakes up
636. # [16:35] <gsnedders> The option names in parse.py at least, as --quote-attr-values no longer makes sense if it defaults to True if you want to disable it
637. # [16:36] <Philip`> Add '--no-...' versions of all those options, so people can always be explicit and not rely on the defaults
638. # [16:37] <Lachy> jgraham, if anyone here needs medication, it's the crazy people who leave attributes unquoted, and maybe the leprechauns running around this office making noise. But sane people like Philip` and I don't!
639. # [16:37] <gsnedders> Lachy: Real sprites, or not?
640. # [16:38] <Lachy> gsnedders, what?
641. # [16:38] <gsnedders> Lachy: leprechauns and sprites, no?
642. # [16:38] <gsnedders> *are
643. # [16:38] <Lachy> oh, I didn't realise it meant that too
644. # [16:38] <Lachy> yeah
645. # [16:39] <gsnedders> Because that would be kinda awesome if you did have sprites running around your office :)
646. # [16:40] <Lachy> actually, I should have gone with trolls. I'm told they're a norwegian creation, so it would make more sense than an irish creation :-)
647. # [16:40] <gsnedders> :)
648. # [16:41] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip75.unival.com)
649. # [16:41] * Philip` has a reasonably large collection of trolls (humanoid creatures made of some sort or rubber or plastic, with long brightly-coloured hair) in a box in a cupboard somewhere at home
650. # [16:42] <Lachy> I never had a troll doll. Though they were reasonably popular when I was a kid
651. # [16:42] <Lachy> I think they were more of a girly thing
652. # [16:42] <gsnedders> What does that say about Philip`?
653. # [16:43] <Lachy> gsnedders, nothing. I assumed she was a girl all along. Was I wrong?
654. # [16:43] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_doll - aha
655. # [16:43] <Philip`> They weren't girly! >:-(
656. # [16:43] <gsnedders> Lachy: He doesn't look like one, at lesat
657. # [16:43] <gsnedders> *least
658. # [16:43] <gsnedders> Lachy: And his voice is a bit deep for a girl
659. # [16:43] <gsnedders> s/He/It/
660. # [16:43] <gsnedders> s/his/it/
661. # [16:45] <Lachy> gsnedders, since I've never met him/her in person yet, I'll have to take your word for it. :-)
662. # [16:45] <gsnedders> Lachy: :)
663. # [16:45] <Philip`> I might have hired an actor to pretend to be me, to disguise my real identity
664. # [16:45] <gsnedders> Lachy: Also, I can't show you a photo of it because its reaction to being photographed
665. # [16:47] <Lachy> Philip`, sure, the pink hair and the fact that it was a doll definitely doesn't make it girly. Sorry ;-)
666. # [16:49] <Philip`> Lachy: I don't think I had any with pink hair - they were mostly yellow and green, as far as I can remember
667. # [16:50] <Philip`> And I don't think I ever heard them called "troll dolls" before today - they were just trolls, in the same way that you get Action Mans and not Action Man dolls
668. # [16:52] <Lachy> OMG! found more UI bugs in IE8. this is terrible
669. # [16:53] <Philip`> And anway I think I mostly made cars crash into them, rather than combing their hair or whatever girls would do
670. # [16:53] <Philip`> s/terrible/beta/
671. # [16:53] <Lachy> s/beta/lower-than-alpha/
672. # [16:54] <Lachy> this latest bug is: Resize the window, press Ctrl+W to close all tabs till the window itself closes. Then restart IE, and it reopens at the size it was before resizing it.
673. # [16:55] <Lachy> Do the same, but use the close button instead of Ctrl+W, and it remembers the last size properly
674. # [16:56] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-c237938f5ba014a5)
675. # [16:58] * gsnedders had one or two trolls, and did what Philip` didn't, and did what girls would do
676. # [16:58] * gsnedders ducks
677. # [16:59] <Lachy> gsnedders, fair enough. I'm sure they helped you practice before messing with your own hair.
678. # [16:59] * Lachy ducks
679. # [16:59] <gsnedders> hmm…
680. # [16:59] * gsnedders does have relatively long hair at the moment
681. # [16:59] <Lachy> you should dye it bright green and take a photo for us
682. # [16:59] <Lachy> then I can use that in my next presentation
683. # [17:00] <Lachy> I'll need it before about the end of september. My presentation is on October 7th
684. # [17:00] <gsnedders> A girl at school was saying I ought to dye it green
685. # [17:00] <gsnedders> (bright green, that is)
686. # [17:00] <gsnedders> I don't think my mother would approve, though
687. # [17:01] <Philip`> Wear a hat, so she wouldn't notice
688. # [17:01] <Lachy> well, you've got to give into peer pressure. You don't have a choice about that.
689. # [17:01] <gsnedders> :S
690. # [17:01] <gsnedders> *:D
691. # [17:01] * Joins: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@g226143003.adsl.alicedsl.de)
692. # [17:01] * Philip` also has a large cuddly troll with a hood
693. # [17:01] * gsnedders wonders where he could get green hair dye
694. # [17:02] <Lachy> gsnedders, hair salon
695. # [17:02] * gsnedders realizes he knows people at school who would know
696. # [17:02] <gsnedders> Like, specifically around here
697. # [17:03] <Lachy> or perhaps you can get that spray on stuff from the supermarket that kids often used to wear to school swimming/athletics carnivals at my school, based on their team colours
698. # [17:03] <gsnedders> Lachy: That's boring.
699. # [17:04] * Lachy wonders if gsnedders is actually going to go through with it if he finds out where to get it
700. # [17:04] <gsnedders> Lachy: Quite possibly :)
701. # [17:04] * Joins: heycam (i=cam@80.187.148.74)
702. # [17:04] <gsnedders> But it'll probably end up like all kinds of things I've said I'll do but never do
703. # [17:04] <Lachy> great! I look forward to it.
704. # [17:04] * Lachy changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! - gsnedders promised to dye his hair green, photos coming soon :-)'
705. # [17:05] <gsnedders> hah.
706. # [17:05] <Philip`> gsnedders: Use radium
707. # [17:05] <gsnedders> Philip`: Slightly risky.
708. # [17:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: Sure, but it's worthwhile for glow-in-the-dark hair
709. # [17:06] <Lachy> I think it's home time. I'm going to go pull out my transformers and play with some real boys toys!
710. # [17:06] <gsnedders> Lachy: Like hair straighteners?
711. # [17:07] <Lachy> gsnedders, no. Transformers!
712. # [17:08] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
713. # [17:09] * gsnedders notes the girl at school also said to wait for my hair to longer first
714. # [17:09] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
715. # [17:09] <gsnedders> s/my/his/
716. # [17:09] <Philip`> s//$verb/
717. # [17:10] * gsnedders notes girls are crazy
718. # [17:10] * gsnedders ducks
719. # [17:10] * mpt flees as the channel fills with an infinite number of verbs
720. # [17:11] <Philip`> mpt: I didn't use /g :-p
721. # [17:12] <Philip`> (and it wouldn't be infinite anyway unless there was an external loop)
722. # [17:12] <Philip`> and anyway these are context-sensitive regexps that only apply to the (unspecified) appropriate point of the appropriate line
723. # [17:13] <Philip`> (I don't think even Perl has implemented that much DWIM yet, sadly)
724. # [17:19] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228000031.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
725. # [17:22] * Quits: heycam (i=cam@80.187.148.74) ("bye")
726. # [17:26] * Joins: aboodman7 (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
727. # [17:26] <gsnedders> If I'm going to do this, I may as well do everything else that I wanted to do to change how I look that my mother will disapprove of too
728. # [17:26] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
729. # [17:26] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Client Quit)
730. # [17:26] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
731. # [17:26] <gsnedders> Lachy: No, I haven't yet
732. # [17:27] <Philip`> gsnedders: That does not necessarily make sense, unless she simply has a boolean "approve"/"disapprove" thought process
733. # [17:28] <gsnedders> Philip`: I am aware it doesn't really make sense. But nothing else that I would do to change how I look would have any worse reaction that dying my hair green.
734. # [17:30] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
735. # [17:32] <BenMillard> gsnedders, if you get it done then make sure it's expensive
736. # [17:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: That doesn't make sense either, since disapproval is usually based on an additive function rather than a max function, so one extreme act plus one minor act is worse than just the extreme act by itself
737. # [17:32] <BenMillard> otherwise it's likely to be a lousy job that sucks badly
738. # [17:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: Peh. It gets it over and done with.
739. # [17:32] <Philip`> BenMillard: At least it'd be a lousy job that sucks badly and was cheap
740. # [17:32] <gsnedders> BenMillard: But I have next to no money :P
741. # [17:33] <gsnedders> If I can raise £n, I will dye my hair!
742. # [17:33] <gsnedders> :P
743. # [17:33] <BenMillard> gsnedders, then your finances can act as a throttle to your mother's disapproval :)
744. # [17:33] <BenMillard> i.e. you can only annoy her to the extent you can afford it
745. # [17:33] <gsnedders> BenMillard: :)
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747. # [17:34] <BenMillard> but I should point out that you could try asking first
748. # [17:35] <BenMillard> I imagine she grew up during the 1980's so doesn't have much of a case against you adopting a crazy appearance
749. # [17:36] <gsnedders> BenMillard: My parents are old. Really old.
750. # [17:36] <BenMillard> in that case the playing field is even more in your favour :)
751. # [17:36] <BenMillard> until you get pre1960's, at least
752. # [17:36] <gsnedders> BenMillard: My mother is during WWII :)
753. # [17:37] <BenMillard> oh, lol
754. # [17:37] <gsnedders> BenMillard: And there should be no apos. in either 1960s or 1980s
755. # [17:37] <gsnedders> my father is months after the end
756. # [17:37] <gsnedders> BenMillard: I did say old:)
757. # [17:37] <gsnedders> (hi mum!)
758. # [17:38] <BenMillard> "... all intranet websites display in Internet Explorer 7 Standards mode ..." -- http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/08/27/introducing-compatibility-view.aspx
759. # [17:38] <BenMillard> so much for competition
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763. # [18:04] <Dashiva> The metadata will save us (after the tools save us from the metadata)
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810. # [21:37] <annevk> hmm, IE8 standards mode killed the createElement workaround?
811. # [21:38] <Lachy> annevk, do you mean the one that fixes the parsing of unknown elements?
812. # [21:38] <Xenos> annevk: Doesn't have as much ring to it as "video killed the radio star", but good try
813. # [21:39] <annevk> omg, IE8 killed <canvas>
814. # [21:39] * Lachy tries it
815. # [21:39] <annevk> (though that's not entirely true, <canvas> workarounds existed before the createElement workaround was discovered (again))
816. # [21:41] <Xenos> How did IE8 kill <canvas>? It's not like IE's had any support for it so far?
817. # [21:41] <annevk> people used createElement as part of <canvas> workarounds
818. # [21:41] <Lachy> annevk, it works for me
819. # [21:41] <Lachy> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Edocument.createElement(%22xxx%22)%3B%3C%2Fscript%3E%0D%0A%3Cxxx%3E%3C%2Fxxx%3E
820. # [21:42] <annevk> ok, good
821. # [21:42] <Lachy> in what way did it kill canvas?
822. # [21:42] * annevk read it here http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/08/28/Improved-Namespace-Support#c1219939338
823. # [21:42] <annevk> Lachy, see above
824. # [21:43] <Philip`> annevk: What people used createElement for that?
825. # [21:43] <annevk> (the <canvas> thing was just a more dramatic statement of my initial one for Xenos)
826. # [21:43] <Philip`> (Excanvas just looks for the CANVAS and /CANVAS elements, and replaces that range with a new element)
827. # [21:43] <annevk> Philip`, someone at Google? dunno, only heard this through proxy
828. # [21:44] * Philip` really wishes that pressing tab in IE's address bar would focus the search box, not the refresh button
829. # [21:44] <Lachy> oh, crap. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%3E%0D%0A%3Cstyle%3Exxx%20%7B%20color%3A%20green%3B%20%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Edocument.createElement(%22xxx%22)%3B%3C%2Fscript%3E%0D%0A%3Cxxx%3Etest%3C%2Fxxx%3E
830. # [21:45] <Lachy> while the createElement workaround fixes the parsing, it doesn't seem possible to style it
831. # [21:45] <annevk> meh
832. # [21:47] <Philip`> It seems you can't style psuedonamespaced elements either
833. # [21:47] <Philip`> like <style>a\:b{...}</style><body xmlns:a><a:b>...</a:b>
834. # [21:47] <Philip`> s/ue/eu/
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837. # [21:49] <Lachy> ok. We'll need to make sure they get bugs about these, especially the ones that aren't very forwards compatible with HTML5
838. # [21:50] <Lachy> Philip`, if could you do it, since you're able to? I would, but they haven't got back to me yet
839. # [21:51] <Xenos> https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/Feedback is the place to do it, I think
840. # [21:51] <Lachy> I get page not found
841. # [21:51] <Xenos> And then spam the people here and on the mailinglist to rate up the bugs we consider important
842. # [21:52] <Xenos> Hm, weird. I got there by following a link on https://connect.microsoft.com/site/sitehome.aspx?SiteID=136
843. # [21:52] <Philip`> Lachy: Can do
844. # [21:53] <Lachy> Xenos, it may be because I'm not an authorised beta tester yet. Are you?
845. # [21:53] <Xenos> Nope
846. # [21:53] <Lachy> I get 404 following that other link as well
847. # [21:53] <Xenos> just googled for "internet explorer beta 2 feedback" and clicked the third result, which led me to page above which led on to first link I posted
848. # [21:54] <Lachy> the first result I get for that search is http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/30/wanted-ie8-beta-testers.aspx
849. # [21:54] <annevk> Lachy, you said "No, it is not a good idea to place constraints on the development of HTML based on the flaws of other tools/langauges", just on the flaws of browser tools then?
850. # [21:54] <Xenos> Lachy: third result
851. # [21:54] <Xenos> And try http://connect.microsoft.com/IE/Feedback instead, might be some https issue perhaps?
852. # [21:55] <Lachy> annevk, that was in realtion to XSLT, and I meant authoring tool design flaws
853. # [21:56] <annevk> I don't see how those shouldn't affect us
854. # [21:56] <annevk> in fact, they already have, see eg />
855. # [21:56] <Lachy> well, it's 7th result for me, and I still get 404
856. # [21:56] <annevk> or xmlns="..."
857. # [21:56] <Xenos> Lachy: Much strangeness.
858. # [21:57] <Lachy> they're still complaining about not being able to output <!DOCTYPE html> using XSLT
859. # [21:57] <Lachy> even though it can be done by disabling output escaping and doing it literally
860. # [21:58] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/ie8/cases/unknown-element-styling.html
861. # [21:58] <annevk> wouldn't it be better to get IE fixed so you can simply emit XML from XSLT?
862. # [21:58] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/ie8/x-ua-ie7/cases/unknown-element-styling.html
863. # [21:58] <annevk> what's the use of emitting text/html out of XSLT over text/xml ?
864. # [21:59] <Lachy> Philip`, the 2nd TC passes in IE8
865. # [21:59] <Lachy> the 1st fails
866. # [21:59] <Lachy> annevk, I didn't think anyone said anything about text/xml
867. # [21:59] <Philip`> Lachy: Both pass in IE7
868. # [22:00] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.108.242) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
869. # [22:00] <Philip`> and the second passing in IE8 indicates that IE8's IE7 compatibility mode is compatible with IE7, which is good
870. # [22:01] <annevk> Lachy, I'm just wondering
871. # [22:03] <Lachy> both TCs pass in IE6 too
872. # [22:04] * Joins: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
873. # [22:04] * maikmerten is now known as maik|bath
874. # [22:04] * maik|bath is now known as maik|bathtub
875. # [22:05] <Lachy> the annoying thing about switching to IE running in VMware is making my fingers press the right keyboard shortcuts
876. # [22:07] <Lachy> ha! microsoft.com is in the default list of websites that render in IE7 mode
877. # [22:07] <Philip`> Does anyone have IE8b1 to test in?
878. # [22:07] <Xenos> I must disagree. "the annoying thing about switching to IE" is leaving behind half your IQ :p
879. # [22:07] <Lachy> Philip`, I can install it quickly, if you like
880. # [22:08] <Lachy> well, not quickly. I need to make a copy of the VM, find the installation file if I've still got it, and then spend 20 mintes waiting for it to finsih
881. # [22:08] <Philip`> Lachy: Hmm, probably no need, since I think someone would have noticed if that test case wouldn't have worked in IE8b1
882. # [22:09] <Xenos> No wonder, Lachy: Having microsoft.com working well is a pretty important PR thing, and redeveloping microsoft.com for each beta would be pretty damn expensive :p
883. # [22:09] <Lachy> I should probably install it anyway. But I have a problem, cause I need to maintain separate virtual machines to run each version of IE: IE6, 7, 8b1 and 8b2
884. # [22:10] * Lachy removes it from the list and takes a look...
885. # [22:10] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
886. # [22:13] <Lachy> hmm, interesting. Regardless of whether it's in the list, it seems to always render in compatibility mode and the option to switch it is disabled.
887. # [22:13] <Lachy> I wonder if they've set X-UA-Compatible or something to make it do that (which would be a more forward compatible approach, than effectively hard coding it into the browser
888. # [22:14] <Lachy> yes: X-UA-Compatible: IE=EmulateIE7
889. # [22:15] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
890. # [22:15] <Lachy> oh, they also have an option to display all intranet sites in compatibility mode, selected by default, or all websites in compat mode, unseleced by default
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892. # [22:24] * Parts: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
893. # [22:28] * Quits: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
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895. # [22:31] <Philip`> https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=364356
896. # [22:33] <annevk> nice
897. # [22:33] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
898. # [22:35] * Quits: aboodman14 (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-29d35729b780c0ed) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
899. # [22:35] <Philip`> Does http://philip.html5.org/tests/ie8/cases/dynamic-class-sibling-restyle.html look green to anyone?
900. # [22:35] <Philip`> (in IE8)
901. # [22:38] * maik|bathtub is now known as maikmerten
902. # [22:51] * Philip` wonders what the point is in giving credit to people using two letter initials, so that nobody knows who it is and you're bound to get collisions
903. # [22:52] <annevk> I suspect Hixie can extrapolate the full name
904. # [22:53] <annevk> mine is three letter btw
905. # [22:53] <gsnedders> mine is two letter
906. # [22:53] * hober contemplates "<brb>" for the browser button element... :)
907. # [22:54] <annevk> <browserbutton> would work
908. # [22:54] <annevk> it's not like you'd use it all over
909. # [22:57] <annevk> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/JohnBoyer?entry=the_ubiquity_strategy_for_promoting
910. # [22:57] <annevk> "More importantly, this means that the W3C, not the browser makers, defines the web and its standards."
911. # [22:58] <annevk> (the problem with all his cheering of course is that if you build everything on top of AJAX, you're still limited by what browser engines support)
912. # [22:58] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-424bbc4eb31b2749)
913. # [22:59] * annevk replies
914. # [22:59] <Philip`> If you build everything on top of AJAX, you don't need standards
915. # [23:00] <annevk> that too :)
916. # [23:00] <Philip`> You can just bundle the application with its AJAX scripts and there's no need to put up with the pain of standardisation
917. # [23:00] <annevk> (though you need them for AJAX, to make sure it works in browsers)
918. # [23:00] <gsnedders> I'm not built on top of AJAX, but there's no human standard
919. # [23:00] <annevk> fail
920. # [23:02] <annevk> Philip`, heh, thanks for backing up thoughts by facts :)
921. # [23:03] <Philip`> Facts are easier than thoughts
922. # [23:03] <Philip`> As long as you don't analyse them, you can't be wrong
923. # [23:04] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-424bbc4eb31b2749) ("The computer fell asleep")
924. # [23:08] * Philip` wonders why he keeps getting given mod points on Slashdot even though he let the last ~75 points expire
925. # [23:09] <Lachy> Philip`, go use them to mod me up
926. # [23:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: Because you comment around the median and have good karma
927. # [23:11] <Philip`> Lachy: That would be immoral :-p
928. # [23:12] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
929. # [23:12] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@pool-71-185-239-97.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
930. # [23:12] * gsnedders changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! -- gsnedders promised to dye his hair green, photos coming soon :-)'
931. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Lachy: Double hyphens are used everywhere else in the topic. Please be consistent changing it!
932. # [23:13] <Lachy> Philip`, here's an interesting comment from a user I don't know that should be modded up. http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=914095&cid=24784973
933. # [23:13] * gsnedders had mod points till yesterday
934. # [23:13] <Lachy> gsnedders, sorry, I didn't realise
935. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Lachy: heh.
936. # [23:13] <annevk> /. still popular?
937. # [23:13] * annevk thought it was all reddit
938. # [23:13] <Lachy> annevk, no
939. # [23:14] <Lachy> I never read reddit
940. # [23:14] <gsnedders> /. > digg > reddit
941. # [23:14] <Lachy> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/28/1855213
942. # [23:14] <annevk> digg over reddit?
943. # [23:15] <annevk> crazy
944. # [23:15] <gsnedders> annevk: The content that gets on digg is better, even if the comments are even worse
945. # [23:15] <Philip`> Lachy: Why do you think hard drives would last any longer while unused than DVDs?
946. # [23:15] * annevk looks on /.
947. # [23:15] * annevk finds http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/08/28/1855213.shtml
948. # [23:15] <Lachy> annevk, I just posted that link
949. # [23:16] * Philip` has disabled display of the whole YRO section
950. # [23:16] <Lachy> Philip`, they last longer because as I move the data around to different drives, the data is copied and backed up
951. # [23:16] * gsnedders thinks Philip` has no rights online
952. # [23:16] <gsnedders> You girl!
953. # [23:17] <Lachy> also, after I get a drobo, it will take care of maintaining the data and redundancy for me
954. # [23:17] <Philip`> Lachy: Ah
955. # [23:17] <Philip`> Lachy: -1 Off-topic, since copying data between drives means your point is irrelevant when considering 25-year storage :-p
956. # [23:18] <Lachy> my advice wasn't to use the hard drives in the time capsule. My advice was to stick USB thumb drives in there, and also maintain an unburied copy to cheat
957. # [23:19] * Joins: aboodman14 (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-14692a8a3300e7c5)
958. # [23:19] <Philip`> Because the tiny electronic charge on flash memory is going to last for decades?
959. # [23:20] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
960. # [23:21] <Lachy> Philip`, yes
961. # [23:21] <Lachy> well, I think so. I can't remember what the life of them is, but I thought it was pretty long
962. # [23:22] <annevk> I just hope my various hosting providers copy it all losslessly year after year
963. # [23:22] <annevk> and if that doesn't happen, oh well
964. # [23:22] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226143003.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.1a2pre/20080827031643]")
965. # [23:23] * Quits: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
966. # [23:23] * gsnedders wonders how much eyeliner costs
967. # [23:24] <Lachy> gsnedders, don't tell me someone talked you into wearing eyeliner as well as dying your hair?
968. # [23:25] <gsnedders> Lachy: No, but if I do one, I'm doing both.
969. # [23:25] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
970. # [23:25] <gsnedders> I wanted to do both before anyone started trying to talk me into it
971. # [23:26] <Lachy> gsnedders, don't spoil the fun for us by ruining my delusion that peer pressure made you do it
972. # [23:26] <gsnedders> :P
973. # [23:26] <gsnedders> Lachy: The big duo of you and a girl from school
974. # [23:27] <gsnedders> (Actually, she's quite a bit shorter than me, and I don't know how tall you are)
975. # [23:27] <Lachy> I'm 2m tall
976. # [23:27] <Lachy> I assume you're quite a bit shorter than me :-)
977. # [23:29] <gsnedders> around 20cm shorter
978. # [23:30] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La3b9.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
979. # [23:32] <gsnedders> I ought to write a more sensible about me page
980. # [23:35] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
981. # [23:37] * Quits: aboodman14 (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-14692a8a3300e7c5) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
982. # [23:40] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-bbc4a2454b9099ee)
983. # [23:48] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.60) (Remote closed the connection)
984. # [23:58] <annevk> Would the RDF idea still work good enough if you take out URIs and make it work using the CSS prefix-name model?
985. # [23:58] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
986. # Session Close: Fri Aug 29 00:00:01 2008

The end :)