/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 08 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:27] <erlehmann__> Hixie: i'd apuse grep for that
  12. # [00:27] <erlehmann__> abuse
  13. # [00:28] <Hixie> how?
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  15. # [00:31] * Philip` would use Perl
  16. # [00:31] <Philip`> perl -lpe'print "Warnings:" if $. == 1' or something
  17. # [00:32] <Philip`> but that's just because I'm too lazy to learn Bash
  18. # [00:35] <zcorpan_> [_] I accept the _terms_*
  19. # [00:35] <zcorpan_> how do you mark that up?
  20. # [00:38] <Hixie> hm, |perl -lpe'print "Warnings:" if $. == 1'| is good.
  21. # [00:38] <Hixie> i didn't think of using $.
  22. # [00:40] <Philip`> Of course you should golf it to be as short as possible, because anything else would be un-Perlish
  23. # [00:41] <Philip`> perl -lpe'$.-1||print"Warnings:"' is the obvious thing to do, but I can't think of how to improve on that :-(
  24. # [00:41] <Hixie> your definition of "improve" needs work. :-P
  25. # [00:42] <Hixie> perl -lpe'$1-1||$_.="Warnings:\n" is even more obscure
  26. # [00:42] <Hixie> er
  27. # [00:42] <Hixie> that puts it on the wrong end
  28. # [00:42] <Hixie> perl -lpe'$1-1||$_="Warnings:\n$_" maybe
  29. # [00:42] <Philip`> The rules don't allow to prouce incorrect output :-p
  30. # [00:42] <Philip`> Uh
  31. # [00:42] <Philip`> The rules don't allow you to produce incorrect output :-p
  32. # [00:43] <Philip`> (It'd be better if I didn't forget to type so many letters)
  33. # [00:43] <Hixie> perl -lpe'$.-1||$_="Warnings:\n$_" even
  34. # [00:43] <Hixie> see this is why one doesn't make things so hard to read!
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  36. # [00:46] <Philip`> If you want hard to read, you'd have to do something more like perl -pe'@.[1]="Warnings:\n";$_=$.[$.].$_'
  37. # [00:47] <Philip`> Uh, that's a bit silly, I should have said perl -pe'$.[1]="Warnings:\n";$_=$.[$.].$_' though it doesn't make any difference in practice
  38. # [00:48] <Philip`> The @ looks prettier anyway
  39. # [00:48] <Hixie> wtf is @.
  40. # [00:48] <Philip`> It's just a variable
  41. # [00:48] <Hixie> oh it's not a magical one?
  42. # [00:49] <Philip`> No, or if it's magic then I'm just clobbering whatever magic value it contained
  43. # [00:49] <Hixie> dude. don't use punctuation as the name of your own variables. :-P
  44. # [00:49] <Philip`> perldoc doesn't say it's magic
  45. # [00:49] <Hixie> it's bad enough that i have to deal with perl's own magical
  46. # [00:49] <Hixie> variables
  47. # [00:49] <Philip`> I just wanted an excuse to write $.[$.].$_
  48. # [00:50] <Philip`> It has a pleasing symmetry
  49. # [00:50] <zcorpan_> looks like a weird smiley
  50. # [00:50] <zcorpan_> $_[^_^]_$
  51. # [00:51] <Philip`> zcorpan_: That looks like a pretty nasty ear infection
  52. # [00:51] <erlehmann__> is that valid perl code ?
  53. # [00:52] <Philip`> erlehmann__: $_[^_^]_$ isn't
  54. # [00:52] <Hixie> m$_[^_^]_$ is
  55. # [00:52] <Hixie> :-D
  56. # [00:52] <erlehmann__> D:<
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  58. # [00:53] <Philip`> #$_[^_^]_$ is too - it's easy if you're allowed to modify the code arbitrarily :-p
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  60. # [00:53] <Hixie> it is an expression that returns true if $_ contains the string "_x_" for any value of x that isn't "_" or "^".
  61. # [00:54] <zcorpan_> wow
  62. # [00:54] <Hixie> note that the occurance of $_ in the expression has nothing to do with the variable $_ though
  63. # [00:55] <zcorpan_> you should go through a list of smileys and try to interpret them as perl
  64. # [00:56] <Philip`> No language is as fun as Perl
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  66. # [00:57] <erlehmann> #_[^_^]_# is too ?
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  68. # [00:57] <Hixie> # starts a comment
  69. # [00:57] <Hixie> so anything starting with # is valid
  70. # [00:57] <Hixie> (except if the # is preceeded by an m or an s or a tr)
  71. # [00:57] <Hixie> (but that's another story)
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  73. # [00:59] <Philip`> s#\##//##\\##/#s
  74. # [00:59] <Philip`> replaces Perl/sh/etc-style comments with C++-style comments
  75. # [01:01] <Hixie> s#\##//##\\##/#s is really "s#\##//#" with a comment
  76. # [01:01] <Hixie> i don't think relying on comments is really fair game
  77. # [01:01] <Philip`> But I want symmetry :-(
  78. # [01:01] <Hixie> (unless you're writing a polyglot in which case at the commented portion should be no a comment in some language)
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  80. # [01:04] <Philip`> On that subject, and just out of interest: is there a nicer/conciser way than
  81. # [01:05] <Philip`> ''/*
  82. # [01:05] <Philip`> document.write("VB")
  83. # [01:05] <Philip`> '*/document.write("JS")
  84. # [01:05] <Philip`> to write a script that can tell whether it's being run as VBScript or JScript?
  85. # [01:05] <Hixie> nicer or conciser?
  86. # [01:05] <Philip`> Conciseness is nice, so both :-)
  87. # [01:06] <sicking> Hixie, got a sec re importScripts?
  88. # [01:06] <Hixie> Philip`: i don't know VB well but i imagine the document. part can be abstracted out
  89. # [01:06] <Hixie> sicking: sure
  90. # [01:06] <Hixie> (i am deep in wf2 edits right now, but i can discuss whatever)
  91. # [01:15] <aboodman> sicking: what's the question?
  92. # [01:16] <sicking> sorry, something came up in another channel, bbiab
  93. # [01:17] <sicking> so the issue is how to specify JS versions
  94. # [01:18] <sicking> something that is important in order for 'yeild' to work for example
  95. # [01:18] <sicking> (ff only for now, hopefully will be implemented cross browser)
  96. # [01:19] <olliej> sicking: you could try { eval("function(){var yield = 1;}") } catch(e) { /* no yield */} or something
  97. # [01:19] <olliej> surely?
  98. # [01:19] <olliej> i''m assuming "yield" is considered a keyword
  99. # [01:19] <sicking> olliej, no, i mean that we as an implementation has to put the JS parser in a special mode when parsing
  100. # [01:19] <sicking> olliej, it's not unless the parser is put in such a mode
  101. # [01:20] <olliej> ah
  102. # [01:20] <sicking> olliej, since introducing keywords breaks stuff
  103. # [01:20] <olliej> true
  104. # [01:20] <othermaciej> I think there should be an in-script way of specifying you want new keywords
  105. # [01:20] <zcorpan_> sicking: can't importScript assume the latest and greatest?
  106. # [01:20] <othermaciej> an external flag is not robust
  107. # [01:20] <zcorpan_> sicking: surely there's no legacy to worry about
  108. # [01:21] <Philip`> You just need to grep the web for all identifiers used in all JS scripts, and then choose keywords which don't conflict with any identifier usage
  109. # [01:21] <sicking> zcorpan_, that means that a page loaded in safari will work, but not in FF
  110. # [01:21] <sicking> zcorpan_, since the 'yeild' in FF will be parsed as a keyword, but in safari/opera/chrome not
  111. # [01:21] <aboodman> sicking: does it even make sense to load a js 1.5 script into a, say, js 1.4 environment?
  112. # [01:21] <olliej> sicking: you forgot ie
  113. # [01:21] <olliej> sicking: ;)
  114. # [01:21] <zcorpan_> sicking: you don't expect authors who write worker scripts to test in firefox?
  115. # [01:21] <sicking> othermaciej, external meaning the server side content-type for example
  116. # [01:22] <othermaciej> sicking: yeah, that seems bogus to me
  117. # [01:22] <sicking> zcorpan_, nope
  118. # [01:22] <othermaciej> sicking: it means if I download the script, it won't work any more
  119. # [01:22] <othermaciej> since there's nothing to provide the Content-Type
  120. # [01:22] <othermaciej> so now I have to remember to set a flag wherever I embed it
  121. # [01:22] <sicking> aboodman, it seems to work in HTML today. You specify version per <script> element
  122. # [01:22] <othermaciej> versioning should be in the script itself, like the proposed "use strict"
  123. # [01:23] <aboodman> sicking: ok, i never use that feature, so i'm unfamiliar. sorry.
  124. # [01:23] <othermaciej> Safari completely ignores the version on the <script> element
  125. # [01:23] <othermaciej> it's basically a Firefox-only feature
  126. # [01:23] <aboodman> sicking: maybe there could be an optional extra param in the ff version
  127. # [01:23] <sicking> othermaciej, how would you deal with yield? 'use yield'?
  128. # [01:23] <Philip`> sicking: Most people specify versions like 1.1 or 1.3, and all browsers treat that as exactly the same as 1.5, so it doesn't seem like a particularly successful feature
  129. # [01:23] <sicking> aboodman, problem is that the function takes a list of uris
  130. # [01:24] <othermaciej> sicking: I think whatever language version introduces it should have a "use es4" or "use harmony" or whatever to request new keywords
  131. # [01:24] <sicking> aboodman, i suppose we could check if the last one looks like a version number, but that seems like a hack
  132. # [01:24] <sicking> othermaciej, makes sense to me. Have you guys talked about this?
  133. # [01:24] <aboodman> or you could support something like:
  134. # [01:24] <aboodman> importScripts([[foo.js, 1.5], [bar.js, 1.3]])
  135. # [01:25] <othermaciej> sicking: I have talked some about how the old-world ES4 approach to versioning was lame, but I am not sure what anyone else thinks
  136. # [01:25] <othermaciej> I'll bring it up on es-discuss
  137. # [01:25] <aboodman> horrific i know
  138. # [01:25] <zcorpan_> why are you concerned about js keywords but not new dom features?
  139. # [01:25] * othermaciej is now known as om_coffee
  140. # [01:25] <sicking> Philip`, the differences between 1.1 and 1.3 doesn't generally matter. 1.5 to 1.8 is different
  141. # [01:25] <zcorpan_> i mean why should authors have to opt in to get new js keywords but not to get new dom features
  142. # [01:26] <sicking> zcorpan_, because introducing new DOM features generally doesn't break existing content
  143. # [01:26] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Because new JS keywords are likely to make perfectly valid not-uncommon scripts written in the old language version fail to compile in the new version, whereas you never get the same problem with new DOM features
  144. # [01:26] <sicking> zcorpan_, introducing new JS keywords does
  145. # [01:27] <sicking> i guess for now we can add something like 'mozilla.importScriptVersion' and let people set that before calling importScripts
  146. # [01:30] <Philip`> If people are setting the script version, presumably they are using features of the new language version, so their scripts won't work in old language versions, so their scripts won't work in any other browsers anyway, so the API doesn't need to be compatible with other browsers
  147. # [01:30] <Philip`> so it could just be a function like mozImportScriptsWithVersion(version, uris...) instead of calling importScripts
  148. # [01:31] <Hixie> sicking: use the same technique as is used for javascript: URLs, or onfoo="" event handlers, or scripts sent over FTP
  149. # [01:32] <Hixie> sicking: which is to say, fix JS so that it is forwards and backwards compatible like HTML and CSS and you don't need a specific out-of-band indicator
  150. # [01:32] <erlehmann> js 5, yay \o/
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  157. # [02:03] <sicking> Hixie, true. I don't think we have a way to use other version in onfoo attributes right now
  158. # [02:03] <sicking> Philip`, exactly, that's why i suggested the mozilla.importScriptVersion syntax. Your syntax would also work
  159. # [02:07] * Hixie has been telling the JS group this for some time now
  160. # [02:07] <Hixie> but they keep pushing back
  161. # [02:07] <Hixie> which is sad, since lack of versioning being the way to go has been proven over and over again to be the only sane way to design web-resistent languages
  162. # [02:08] <Hixie> versions don't work when you have unsynchronised widely-buggy implementations and widely varied content providers that work together without collaborating
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  164. # [02:10] <sicking> Hixie, at the same time, HTML5 has <DOCTYPE HTML>
  165. # [02:10] <sicking> Hixie, i mostly agree though
  166. # [02:10] <Hixie> <!DOCTYPE HTML> is not versioning. it's explicitly no versioning, in fact.
  167. # [02:11] <Hixie> i would have removed it altogether (we did in XHTML5) but then we wouldn't be triggering standards mode
  168. # [02:11] <sicking> Hixie, exactly, so the web needs at least two versions
  169. # [02:11] <Hixie> quirks mode was a huge mistake
  170. # [02:11] <Hixie> we should never have done it
  171. # [02:12] <Hixie> we only "need" four versions (xml, quirks, limited quirks, no quirks) because of historical inertia
  172. # [02:13] <Hixie> we should make as sure as possible that we never add another version again
  173. # [02:13] <sicking> agreed, though there is a 'as possible' there
  174. # [02:13] <Hixie> it's possible with JS
  175. # [02:14] <Hixie> e.g. using special syntax for new keywords, or whatever
  176. # [02:14] <Hixie> or instrumenting browsers to find out what keywords are safe to add, the same way we scanned the web to determine safety for new html5 element names
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  178. # [02:15] <Hixie> or importing new symbols using a page-wide "opt-in" syntax
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  181. # [02:21] <BenMillard> webben, I disagree with that markup for tag clouds: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081007#l-372
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  184. # [02:22] <BenMillard> webben, it makes the content desperately verbose and sighted users don't have a convenient way of getting the actual frequencies
  185. # [02:30] <BenMillard> webben, I'd put the values in the title attribute and it seems "ampz" had the same idea in the final comment to that 24 ways article: http://24ways.org/2006/marking-up-a-tag-cloud#c001139
  186. # [02:31] <BenMillard> webben, the 24 ways markup also puts the link at the end of the item, so it's painful to use linearly
  187. # [02:34] <Dashiva> Geez, what is it with people thinking that just because something is in some order, it has to be an ordered list
  188. # [02:34] <Hixie> the spec is clear that that is not what <ol> means. :-)
  189. # [02:35] <Dashiva> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
  190. # [02:35] <Dashiva> Where's my spec?
  191. # [02:35] <Hixie> it's there
  192. # [02:35] <Dashiva> Oh, there it is. I must've hit the page just before the index.html was generated
  193. # [02:35] <Hixie> looks like
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  195. # [02:41] <BenMillard> Dashiva, "I put my list items in order, therefore it's an ordered list."
  196. # [02:43] <Dashiva> Sounds like a job for intelligent sort
  197. # [02:44] <Philip`> Dashiva: I'd blame Hixie for that - the actual generation (currently performed by me) happens on a different server and it just uploads a .tar.something with the output, so it's Hixie's fault if that doesn't get uncompressed and linked into place atomically :-)
  198. # [02:44] <Dashiva> Hmm
  199. # [02:45] <Dashiva> You could uncompress on the side, but is it possible to redirect a symlink atomically?
  200. # [02:46] <Philip`> How could it possibly be impossible?
  201. # [02:46] <Philip`> Have directories called "001" and "002", symlink multipage to 001, uncompress into 002, replace the symlink, delete directory 001
  202. # [02:46] <Philip`> then repeat next time with 002 and 003
  203. # [02:47] <Dashiva> But replacing the symlink might mean delete + create unatomically
  204. # [02:47] <Philip`> The symlink can't really be doing anything other than pointing at either one of the directories, so it's got to be pretty much atomic
  205. # [02:48] <Philip`> "Replace" is just a renaming operation, and I'd assume all sane filesystems do atomic renaming
  206. # [02:48] <Dashiva> That's what you think
  207. # [02:48] <Philip`> Indeed it is :-)
  208. # [02:50] <Philip`> But anyway, delete+create would still be, uh, molecular even if it's not atomic, and you'd never manage to make an HTTP request in that tiny time period, so it's much better than deleting everything and then letting bunzip2 crunch some megabytes for a few seconds
  209. # [02:51] <Dashiva> But if we leave it at that, Hixie won't have an excuse for not making it work
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  211. # [02:55] <Hixie> I'm getting there. Only <textarea>, <output>, common attributes, validity, and form submission formats to go.
  212. # [02:57] <Dashiva> Poor type=email-list, never to see the light of day
  213. # [02:57] <Hixie> oh well once i've done all this i have 500+ e-mails to reply to with new feature requests
  214. # [02:57] <Hixie> i'm just talking about the wf2->html5 integration
  215. # [02:58] * Hixie decides to drop <textarea pattern="">
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  219. # [03:04] <blooberry> hixie: why so?
  220. # [03:22] <BenMillard> Hixie, now 1,002 entries in my 2008 collection as the "To Do" entries often have several interesting uses of markup in them
  221. # [03:22] <BenMillard> Hixie, maybe we can fit a few sessions to run through it? We can do both planned and impromptu meetings, depending how it goes.
  222. # [03:22] <Hixie> blooberry: what's the use case?
  223. # [03:22] <Hixie> BenMillard: sure
  224. # [03:23] <Hixie> BenMillard: not too long, but i can do an hour or so
  225. # [03:23] <BenMillard> Hixie, my feeling exactly :)
  226. # [03:23] <BenMillard> I don't want to spend all day looking at collected web pages when I'm in the south of France
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  231. # [04:17] <blooberry> hixie: Sorry, was away. Bad word filtering in blog or forum system?
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  261. # [07:20] <Hixie> gah
  262. # [07:20] <Hixie> i missed "textarea" when fixing the parser last time
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  280. # [09:19] * hsivonen_ sees the financial crisis comes to the damowmow portal
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  282. # [09:31] <Hixie> man, why do people watch that page all the time :-)
  283. # [09:32] <olliej> Hixie: ?
  284. # [09:32] <olliej> Hixie: damowmow has a portal? whoah
  285. # [09:32] <Hixie> http://☺.damowmow.com/
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  288. # [09:42] <hsivonen_> krijnh: your linkifying regexp doesn't work with IRIs
  289. # [09:47] <jruderman> or http://www.damowmow.com/portal/ if you want an address you can type
  290. # [09:48] <Hixie> click on the <h1> to go to the idn url
  291. # [09:48] <Hixie> but seriously? you people use that page?
  292. # [09:48] <Hixie> what's with that! :-P
  293. # [09:49] <hsivonen_> Hixie: it has useful links and interesting charts
  294. # [09:49] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
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  296. # [09:53] <Hixie> fair enough :-)
  297. # [09:53] <Hixie> i encourage you to make your own though, it'll be more useful :-)
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  301. # [10:08] <hsivonen_> Hixie: I meant the electoral vote charts--not your portfolio.
  302. # [10:19] <annevk2> krijnh, you fail on http://☺.damowmow.com/
  303. # [10:20] <annevk2> oops, hsivonen_ said that already
  304. # [10:21] <Philip`> krijnh: Thank you for not linkifying http://☺.damowmow.com/, since we don't want to encourage the use of untypeable domain names
  305. # [10:21] <annevk2> Hixie, new Option() takes an optional fourth argument as well
  306. # [10:21] <annevk2> Hixie, it sets the selectedness
  307. # [10:23] <hsivonen_> can async scripts or defer scripts do document.write?
  308. # [10:25] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.60.14)
  309. # [10:26] <hsivonen_> so the first level of document.write is atomic if it doesn't write "<script>"
  310. # [10:26] <hsivonen_> if it does write "<script>", is it supposed to return early and leave the rest of its data in the inputstream?
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  313. # [10:43] <hsivonen_> Hixie: can "script that will execute as soon as possible" execute when parsing document.written data?
  314. # [10:46] <hsivonen_> "If the tree construction stage is being called reentrantly, say from a call to document.write():" Can it be called re-entrantly except from document.write?
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  335. # [11:53] <hendry> has anyone studied how mail should be marked up on the Web? http://natalian.org/archives/2008/10/07/marking-up-mail/
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  374. # [15:17] <Philip`> "IE8 also supports an event named storagecommit that is not part of HTML5 which tells you when the data has been written to an XML backend format IE8 uses." - hmm, XML? I wonder if you can store values that make that XML ill-formed...
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  377. # [15:36] <jcranmer> see if storing '; DROP DATABASE; &-) <!-- fails...
  378. # [15:37] * annevk2 was not planning on booting back into Windows anytime soon, but would be interested in results of such tests :)
  379. # [15:39] * Philip` wishes he had a VM with IE8, that worked in Linux and didn't cause kernel panics, since that'd make it much easier to test
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  388. # [16:39] <erlehmann> how can i style an element that it doesn't disturb the flow of other block elements ?
  389. # [16:44] <annevk2> that sounds confused :)
  390. # [16:44] <erlehmann> okay, i want a layout like
  391. # [16:44] <erlehmann> xxxxxxxx yy
  392. # [16:44] <erlehmann> zzzzzzzz yy
  393. # [16:44] <erlehmann> zzzzzzzz yy
  394. # [16:44] <erlehmann> zzzzzzzz yy
  395. # [16:45] <erlehmann> and in the source, elements are in order <x> <y> <z>
  396. # [16:45] <erlehmann> y has fixed width and floats left
  397. # [16:45] <erlehmann> err, right
  398. # [16:45] <annevk2> use position:absolute for y instead?
  399. # [16:45] <erlehmann> x and z are dynamic
  400. # [16:47] <erlehmann> annevk2: how could that help if i have several <y> class elements ?
  401. # [16:48] <annevk2> you didn't say that
  402. # [16:49] <erlehmann> hihi, but i have
  403. # [16:49] <erlehmann> like <x> <y> <y> <y> <y> <z>
  404. # [16:49] <annevk2> well, group them?
  405. # [16:49] <erlehmann> and i dont want to make a semantic mess of it ?
  406. # [16:49] <erlehmann> group ?
  407. # [16:49] <erlehmann> like, enclosing it in a div ?
  408. # [16:50] <erlehmann> that would mako the layout way too inflexible
  409. # [16:50] <zcorpan> how do you define CharacterData.data?
  410. # [16:51] <zcorpan> "The data attribute must, on getting, return the data of the node, and on setting, must change the node's data to the new value. "
  411. # [16:52] <annevk2> maybe you should have a "data-concept" just like Hixie has a concept for value
  412. # [16:52] <annevk2> erlehmann, then I don't know, good luck! :)
  413. # [16:54] <zcorpan> annevk2: and how do i define that?
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  416. # [17:03] <annevk2> zcorpan, each "1" object has a "2". member "3" of "1" modifies "2"
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  418. # [17:03] <annevk2> or something in that direction
  419. # [17:04] <annevk2> I notice Hixie hasn't actually defined "2" yet :)
  420. # [17:04] <annevk2> (but it's referenced all over the place)
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  428. # [17:57] <zcorpan> when is a node read-only as defined in dom3core?
  429. # [17:57] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/glossary.html#dt-readonly-node
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  431. # [18:01] <annevk2> "As for Entity nodes, EntityReference nodes and all their descendants are readonly."
  432. # [18:01] <annevk2> couldn't find anything else
  433. # [18:02] <annevk2> (though potentially there are other specs that allow you to obtain a readonly DOM node/fragment or some such, but I can't think of any)
  434. # [18:05] <zcorpan> ok
  435. # [18:06] <annevk2> you didn't fix textContent btw, it has setting and getting reversed
  436. # [18:07] <zcorpan> fixed
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  444. # [18:33] <krijnh> hsivonen_, annevk2, Philip`: fixed
  445. # [18:34] <annevk2> ta
  446. # [18:34] <krijnh> (only that case btw :)
  447. # [18:35] <hsivonen_> krijnh: thanks
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  455. # [18:49] <Philip`> krijnh: I didn't want you to fix it :-(
  456. # [18:49] <gsnedders> Fix what?
  457. # [18:49] <Philip`> krijnh: What he just fixed
  458. # [18:49] <Philip`> Uh
  459. # [18:50] <Philip`> s/krijnh/gsnedders/
  460. # [18:50] <gsnedders> Which was?
  461. # [18:50] <gsnedders> linking http://☺.damowmow.com/?
  462. # [18:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: I think so
  463. # [18:55] <zcorpan> Philip`: it's easy to type ☺
  464. # [18:56] <gsnedders> zcorpan: You were saying anolis cut off <http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core>?
  465. # [18:56] <gsnedders> zcorpan: You find what caused that? You got the source file?
  466. # [18:56] <zcorpan> gsnedders: yeah, it did, twice, at different places
  467. # [18:57] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core.src
  468. # [18:58] <gsnedders> zcorpan: But it works now? You know why?
  469. # [18:58] <zcorpan> once after the <!-- TypeInfo dropped --> comment and once before the <!-- Notation dropped --> comment, iirc
  470. # [18:58] <annevk2> zcorpan, shouldn't isEqualNode consider many other attributes as well?
  471. # [18:59] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Odd.
  472. # [18:59] <zcorpan> annevk2: dunno
  473. # [19:00] <annevk2> might be an idea to define the various properties of a node and an element, etc. as definitions first and then "implement" the members of the interfaces using those terms
  474. # [19:01] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e176251255.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  475. # [19:01] <zcorpan> annevk2: can you give an example of what you mean?
  476. # [19:04] <annevk2> e.g., define an element as having a namespace, name, prefix, list of attributes, list of children
  477. # [19:05] <annevk2> then for Node.namespaceURI you say it returns null unless it is an element or attr object in which case it returns namespace-concept
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  479. # [19:05] <zcorpan> ok
  480. # [19:06] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.60.14) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  481. # [19:06] <annevk2> but maybe that's not needed, not sure
  482. # [19:08] <zcorpan> gotta go now anyway
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  492. # [19:43] <BenMillard> Hendry, the markup for mail archives is something I've thought about but not looked into closely.
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  497. # [19:46] <BenMillard> the way Google turns them into somewhat natural web pages seems general approach, although the specific markup they use could be improved a lot. Such as using heading elements around heading-like text: http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Maps-API/browse_thread/thread/c81a00da42bd64d9
  498. # [19:47] <BenMillard> s/seems general approach/seems like the best general approach/
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  503. # [20:03] <ehird> Is profile="" still removed from <head>?
  504. # [20:04] * Joins: topology (n=nick@91.125.67.140)
  505. # [20:07] <smedero> ehird: it is not present in the current draft, no: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/semantics.html#the-head-element
  506. # [20:08] <ehird> smedero: :|
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  510. # [20:15] <smedero> Microformat folks recommend using <a> or <link> + @rel=profile with HTML 5: http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-uris#.3Chead_profile.3E
  511. # [20:15] <BenMillard> Hendry, here's a fascinating UI for mailng lists: http://zesty.ca/zest/out/
  512. # [20:18] <BenMillard> Hendry, putting the most important phrase from a message in the left panel turns skimming a thread into something really usable and convenient.
  513. # [20:18] * BenMillard bookmarks it for future reference.
  514. # [20:21] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-84.bredband.comhem.se)
  515. # [20:21] <hallvors> In the HTML5 draft we're planning to re-use "drop" events for pasting data. Has anyone investigated or tried to standardise what should happen if you paste formatted content that contains images into an online rich text editor?
  516. # [20:21] <zcorpan> BenMillard: here's one for you: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081008#l-18
  517. # [20:22] <BenMillard> zcorpan, I don't understand that :P
  518. # [20:22] <BenMillard> was it plain text?
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  521. # [20:23] <zcorpan> BenMillard: a checkbox with the label "I accept the terms*" where "terms" is a link and "*" indicates required
  522. # [20:23] <BenMillard> zcorpan, ah
  523. # [20:24] <BenMillard> zcorpan, maybe something like this: <input type="checkbox" name id> <label for>I accept the <a href>terms</a> (required)</label>
  524. # [20:25] <BenMillard> (with sensible values for the attributes)
  525. # [20:25] <zcorpan> BenMillard: <label><a href> is not allowed in html5 and clicking the link would check the checkbox
  526. # [20:26] <BenMillard> zcorpan, that isn't how I expect it to work as an author...hmm
  527. # [20:26] <zcorpan> <a href> doesn't stop the event from bubbling up
  528. # [20:27] <BenMillard> zcorpan, could you prevent that from script (or capture it and make it a no-op?)
  529. # [20:27] <zcorpan> yeah you could
  530. # [20:28] <BenMillard> ok, well as an author and a user I expect clicking a link to only click the link :)
  531. # [20:28] <BenMillard> if that's not what happens natively, scripting that to be the behaviour seems OK
  532. # [20:29] <zcorpan> wonder if it's possible to make the default action for <label> have knowledge about whether a descendant link was clicked
  533. # [20:30] <BenMillard> zcorpan, there might be a more general rule there for making nested interactivity work
  534. # [20:30] <BenMillard> I imagine there are sites which rely on what's currently implemented in this area, though?
  535. # [20:31] <zcorpan> changing the default action of <label> to do nothing if a descendant interactive element was clicked seems like a safe change
  536. # [20:32] <zcorpan> whilch probably improves the usability of pages that do the above
  537. # [20:34] <BenMillard> zcorpan, yeah that sounds good, even when implicit label association is being used
  538. # [20:35] <BenMillard> zcorpan, <label><input type=checkbox ...> I accept the <a href>terms</a> (Required)</label>
  539. # [20:36] <BenMillard> clicking <a hreF> shouldn't click the <label>. Clicking <input> shouldn't click <label> since that would only click the <input> again.
  540. # [20:36] <BenMillard> cool :)
  541. # [20:37] <zcorpan> hmm that's a good point
  542. # [20:39] * BenMillard feels good when zcorpan agrees with him.
  543. # [20:39] <BenMillard> 19:30 and I haven't eaten lunch...I need to offset my sleep cycle before the TPAC
  544. # [20:40] <zcorpan> actually this is how it works in opera
  545. # [20:46] <zcorpan> and webkit
  546. # [20:47] <zcorpan> and ie
  547. # [20:48] <zcorpan> well then i don't see a reason for <label> to not accept interactive descendants in html5
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  550. # [20:55] <zcorpan> and actually when reading the spec it seems it allows <label><a href>
  551. # [20:56] * Joins: topology (n=nick@91.125.67.140)
  552. # [20:58] <zcorpan> i found a bug in v.nu
  553. # [20:59] <BenMillard> zcorpan, because the content model permits "phrasing content" and that includes <a href>? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#the-label-element
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  555. # [20:59] <BenMillard> (and <a href> isn't a "labelable form-associated element" afaict)
  556. # [21:00] <BenMillard> it talks about "the platform's label behaviour" being matched, though
  557. # [21:00] <zcorpan> BenMillard: yeah. i thought there was an implicit rule that interactive content can't contain interactive descendants, but that doesn't seem to be the case
  558. # [21:01] <BenMillard> zcorpan, I thought I read that in HTML5 as well, in a different section...
  559. # [21:03] <zcorpan> the content model for <a> is Transparent, but there must be no interactive content descendant.
  560. # [21:03] <BenMillard> zcorpan, the definition for <a> says it mustn't have interactive descendents
  561. # [21:03] <BenMillard> ah, we spotted that at the same time :)
  562. # [21:03] <Philip`> localStorage["foo"] = "\ud800"
  563. # [21:04] <Philip`> IE stores that in an XML file saying <root><item name="foo" value=" /></root> (sic)
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  566. # [21:06] <Philip`> If you have multiple items, the XML serialiser just stops after the first \ud800 and outputs the ' /></root>' immediately
  567. # [21:06] <BenMillard> zcorpan, HTML4 also allows <label><a href> since <a> is part of %special; which is part of %inline; here: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#edef-LABEL
  568. # [21:07] <Philip`> (Same for \ufffe etc)
  569. # [21:07] <BenMillard> and an exception isn't made for it in the prose, that I've seen
  570. # [21:08] <zcorpan> html4 also allows <a href><label>
  571. # [21:09] <Philip`> (annevk2: ^ )
  572. # [21:09] <BenMillard> zcorpan, I wonder if there's a use-case for that...
  573. # [21:10] <BenMillard> I can't think of one off-hand and my 2008 collection hasn't found <a href><label>
  574. # [21:15] <BenMillard> zcorpan, using part or all of a link's text to label a form control seems very confusing to use
  575. # [21:15] <BenMillard> zcorpan, things like <a href>Google <label for=q>Search</label></a>: <input name=q id=q> could be written <label for=q><a href>Google</a> Search:</label> <input name=q id=q> or <label><a href>Google</a> Search: <input name=q></label> and seem more usable for it
  576. # [21:16] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  577. # [21:17] <zcorpan> BenMillard: i agree
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  581. # [21:19] <zcorpan> hmm html5 doesn't allow <label for=a><input id=a></label>
  582. # [21:19] <Philip`> annevk2: I appear to be unable to comment on your blog
  583. # [21:19] <Philip`> annevk2: It keeps saying "What did you do? You tried to pass the comment system with an invalid comment! Note that Opera has a submission bug; it converts entities on submit...", even when I use Firefox
  584. # [21:20] <BenMillard> Philip`, you have to write <p> elements and everything last time I used it.
  585. # [21:21] <Philip`> BenMillard: I did, and the preview thing was happy to accept it
  586. # [21:21] <BenMillard> Philip`, in that case I'm no help to you. :)
  587. # [21:22] <Philip`> BenMillard: I'll just blame anne, then :-)
  588. # [21:24] <Philip`> Clearly XML is hard
  589. # [21:24] <zcorpan> Philip`: you need to break your habit to include invalid byte streams
  590. # [21:24] <Philip`> zcorpan: I wasn't including invalid byte streams at all!
  591. # [21:25] <Philip`> zcorpan: at least, not in the attempted blog comment itself
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  595. # [21:39] <Philip`> Argh
  596. # [21:39] <Philip`> IE8's XSS 'protection' breaks the Live DOM Viewer
  597. # [21:40] <Philip`> If you try a permalink to anything containing <script>, then it complains about XSS and replaces the page's own <script> tags with <sc#ipt>
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  599. # [21:41] <Philip`> Admittedly it's true that the Live DOM Viewer is one giant XSS vulnerability, but that's the whole point of it
  600. # [21:43] <csarven> http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/
  601. # [21:44] <Philip`> IE8 seems to calculate remainingSpace based on the sum of all key and value string lengths, measured in UTF-16 code units
  602. # [21:47] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
  603. # [21:56] <Philip`> which is pretty silly since it takes 61+len(key)+len(value) to store each item, so you can store maybe three hundred thousand items with zero-length value and minimal-length key, taking up about 20MB of file space and maybe 2MB of post-compression disk space, which is much more than the notional 5e5-byte quota
  604. # [21:56] <gsnedders> Today's challenge: Describe me in one to three sentences.
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  606. # [21:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: Are expletives allowed?
  607. # [21:58] <gsnedders> Philip`: yes
  608. # [21:59] <hallvors> hm, so there is actually a use case for the "do not use XSS protection on this page" HTTP header? ;-)
  609. # [21:59] <hallvors> Ian has to add one for the live DOM viewer..
  610. # [22:01] <Philip`> hallvors: Ooh, good idea
  611. # [22:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: I wonder what you're planning now :)
  612. # [22:02] <Philip`> Hixie: Please add X-XSS-Protection: 0 to http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ so that it works correctly in broken browsers like IE8
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  624. # [22:26] <Hixie> the lastweekinhtml5 blog's quality went up a little bit in the last post
  625. # [22:26] <Hixie> if it goes up in quality much more, it'll be good enough for the blog
  626. # [22:33] * Quits: hdh0 (n=hdh@118.71.123.124) (Remote closed the connection)
  627. # [22:33] <Hixie> you know with all the attention on this channel, you'd have thought we'd have been quoted on bash.org by now
  628. # [22:40] <smedero> http://bash.org/?913
  629. # [22:40] <hsivonen_> I guess those who'd quote use http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/search?query=tag%3A%23whatwg instead
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  634. # [22:56] * Philip` would be surprised if anything said on this channel had sufficiently widespread appeal and quality to be suitable for bash.org
  635. # [22:57] * Hixie falls down a hole and gets trapped under quotes.burntelectrons.org
  636. # [22:57] <Hixie> Philip`: have you _read_ bash.org quotes?!
  637. # [22:57] <Philip`> Hixie: Yes :-)
  638. # [22:57] <Philip`> (Far too many :-/ )
  639. # [22:59] <Hixie> and you think we'll have an appeal and quality problem? :-)
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  642. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yes.
  643. # [23:13] <gsnedders> We're a horrible bunch.
  644. # [23:14] <gsnedders> I mean, <http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/> proves it.
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  657. # Session Close: Thu Oct 09 00:00:00 2008

The end :)