/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-15 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 15 00:00:00 2008
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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6. # [00:26] <hyuuu2> what is the size of whatwg_db? I tried googling and could not find it?
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11. # [00:35] <Hixie> hyuuu2: whatwg_db?
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13. # [00:38] <hyuuu2> Hixie: the client side storage
14. # [00:42] <Hixie> what about it?
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17. # [00:51] <Dashiva> Maybe there's a hidden message in the seemingly unrelated tags mr last week is using
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23. # [01:29] <hyuuu2> Hixie: what is the limit size per domain on that
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31. # [02:20] <Hixie> hyuuu2: depends on the browser, but spec says ~5MB
32. # [02:21] <olliej> hyuuu2: In Safari it starts out at 5mb per domain, but if more is needed the users is asked if more should be allowed
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38. # [02:56] <hyuuu2> Hixie, olliej : thanks
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52. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> blooberry: you around?
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56. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama/
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63. # [04:33] <roc> "Approximately 85% of all of MAMA's pages would be rendered in browsers using their "Quirks" modes."
64. # [04:33] <roc> does that mean "Quirks and Almost-Standards modes"?
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69. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> roc: does Opera have an Almost-Standards mode?
70. # [04:43] <roc> I expect so
71. # [04:43] <roc> those Transitional doctypes better be triggering some kind of mostly-standards-mode rendering
72. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> roc: so about whether it includes both modes, blooberry would be the guy to ask, I guess
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92. # [06:43] <blooberry> roc: that only includes quirks mode. The rest (15%) are in almost standards or standards.
93. # [06:43] <roc> that's strange, because a couple of days ago Hixie told me 50% of the Google index was standards or almost-standadrs
94. # [06:44] <blooberry> roc: I used this chart to judge and built up the counts of the doctypes in the URLs encountered: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/
95. # [06:44] * weinig|away is now known as weinig
96. # [06:45] <blooberry> roc: Google's URL set will differ from the URL set I used...it definitely has more deep-URL representation
97. # [06:45] <blooberry> that could make a difference.
98. # [06:46] <roc> surprisingly large difference though
99. # [06:46] <blooberry> yes. 8-}
100. # [06:46] <roc> I don't know who's right, it's just interesting
101. # [06:47] <blooberry> I think so too on both counts. The DMoz URL set has its known issues. I'd love to hear more about some statistics regarding google's set (do they publish such things?)
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103. # [06:48] <blooberry> I guess I should have expected people might see those articles already...those weren't supposed to "officially" be released until a few hours from now. Guess my blog post will have to wait until after my nap.
104. # [06:51] * blooberry hopes the couple of remaining issues are resolved before I wake up again
105. # [06:53] <hsivonen> blooberry: my page doesn't document thesniffing algorithm. it just has data to show to authors
106. # [06:54] <hsivonen> blooberry: it might be more accurate to apply the algorithm from the HTML5 spec
107. # [06:54] <hsivonen> (which is a fusion of what Opera, Gecko and WebKit do)
108. # [06:55] <blooberry> hsivonen: I thought it was a good guide at the time I made the comparison...I was looking for some way to judge adherence to the spirit of the whole standards/almost/quirks debate.
109. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> blooberry: as far as the timing, the problem with dev.opera.com is that the feed often gets updated before any announcement gets posted to the dev.opera.com home page
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111. # [06:56] <blooberry> our dev.opera gatekeep was up until about 3 in the morning his time fixing a bunch of bugs that were propagated with the posting, so fixing the couple validation errors on the validation article (oops!) will have to wait until morning. ;-}
112. # [06:56] <blooberry> s/gatekeep/gatekeeper/
113. # [06:57] <blooberry> mikesmith: I was surprised at the limitations of the dev.opera site, but I guess timeliness is not one of its problems. 8-D
114. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> heh
115. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> blooberry: anyway, congratulations on putting this stuff together.. it looks great so far, and I'm looking forward to seeing the other specific reports (e.g., the markup on)
116. # [06:58] <blooberry> there are 16 chapters/sections to the markup topic. (hold on to your hat)
117. # [06:59] <blooberry> I'll start small next week covering HTTP headers, and then move on to markup, I think
118. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> wow
119. # [07:00] <blooberry> In some ways it was a lot of fun to gather this data, because I was able to poke into a lot of areas that I hadn't seen poked before.
120. # [07:00] <blooberry> being able to correlate and compare different factors just adds to the festivities. 8-}
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133. # [07:40] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I don't know about the cost of bytecodes except that the 8001st bytecode in a method has a severe cost and makes the execution speed of the method drop to a tenth of what it otherwise would be
134. # [07:41] <BenMillard> blooberry looks like someone I should talk to a lot, reading back the logs.
135. # [07:41] * BenMillard is reading the MAMA articles with breakfast.
136. # [07:44] <BenMillard> "a structural search engine is much smaller, [...] there have been no obvious efforts to address this shortcoming ... until now." surely the studies Hixie has done at Google and the DMOZ crawls Philip` has done use software which is in this category and predate the MAMA one?
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138. # [07:47] <BenMillard> what's with first-letter capitals on CSS property names and HTML attribute names, with uppercase HTML element names? that's a very rare authoring style, in my experience...indeed, the MAMA pages just use lowercase in their HTML and CSS
139. # [07:49] <BenMillard> "it is difficult to know if such tests truly represent how those things are actually used in the real world of the live, evolving Web." indeed!
140. # [07:54] <BenMillard> "markup elements with the lowest MAMA representation are generally phrase elements with defined semantics" cool, this correlates with my 2008 collection :)
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142. # [07:57] <BenMillard> I like how the full numbers are present for everything, like Philip` does
143. # [08:02] <BenMillard> the sentence preceeding each of the 2 tables in this section could be omitted (along with the style attribute for inline CSS) if the <caption> of each <table> was positioned above it: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-key-findings/#structsize
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145. # [08:07] <BenMillard> it's weird how the tables have 2 entries per row...not quite enough space to transpose the table to have 1 entry per column but they could have 1 entry per row
146. # [08:08] <BenMillard> "of the number of sites proudly displaying "W3C validation badges", only ~50% of them actually validate" I'm surprised it's that high
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148. # [08:09] <BenMillard> bold red for positive numbers confuses me a little
149. # [08:11] <BenMillard> ok, making this table (and the one below it) have 2 entries per row is crazy: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-key-findings/#flash
150. # [08:16] <BenMillard> "Control of font characteristics are the dominant use of CSS" nice to see numbers on that, and encouraging to see width and height in the top 10
151. # [08:19] <BenMillard> it's interesting that the validation error is from omitting a </li> tag, which would be completely fine if they were using an HTML doctype: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-markup-validation-report/
152. # [08:19] <BenMillard> (since the documents are text/html they should be using an HTML doctype anyway)
153. # [08:20] <BenMillard> "Many authors "speak" pidgin markup" indeed, in my 2008 collection there seem to be a strata or authoring ability for each general area of HTML
154. # [08:21] <BenMillard> s/strata or/strata of/
155. # [08:24] <BenMillard> "just over 20% of the [W3C Member] companies' URL top pages pass validation" ouch
156. # [08:25] <BenMillard> oh, using Generator to figure out the authoring tool is clever
157. # [08:26] <BenMillard> I hadn't heard of iWeb before
158. # [08:27] <BenMillard> "Strict Doctype flavors pass validation at much higher rates (17.5%) than Transitional (8.4%) or Frameset (7.2%)." heh, even though Strict is more difficult to pass :)
159. # [08:28] <BenMillard> "The most frequent fatal validation error: characters are used that aren't allowed by the detected character set (8.6%)." wow, didn't expect that these days
160. # [08:28] <BenMillard> "Required attribute X not specified" is probably <img alt>, I'd guess
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163. # [08:29] <BenMillard> "We all make mistakes, even the experts." this very much correlates with my collection
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165. # [08:33] <BenMillard> the pagination links at the bottom are better than those at the top: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-w3c-validator-research-2/
166. # [08:35] <BenMillard> "domains can and do die on a distressingly regular basis" indeed, the history of GTA modding is slowly being wiped out because modders' sites are dying out
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168. # [08:37] <BenMillard> the sentence opening "Sticking rigorously to a standard does not necessarily spell success" is used twice in close succession here: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-w3c-validator-research-2/#whatuse
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171. # [08:39] <BenMillard> "people are BAD at this 'HTML thing'" haha, I'll testify to that!
172. # [08:42] <BenMillard> this heading has no id so people can't link directly to it: "Validation rates where select Web-page authoring features are also involved"
173. # [08:42] <BenMillard> surprisingly little increase in validation among authors who use CSS
174. # [08:43] <BenMillard> the difference in validation between IIS an Apache makes sense to me
175. # [08:43] <BenMillard> having audited several sites using each one professionally
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177. # [08:48] <BenMillard> "Put simply, a pessimist might say that a company on [the W3C Member Company] list is just about as likely to drop out of the W3C as it is to achieve a successful validation."
178. # [08:51] <BenMillard> "even though MAMA might be comparing apples to oranges, at least it compares a fairly equal number of apples and oranges" made me giggle, from http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-w3c-validator-research-2/?page=2
179. # [08:52] <hsivonen> iWeb has a high validation rate but also a low rate of non-div/span elements
180. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: does that imply its abusing div and span?
181. # [08:57] <BenMillard> the results about validation on "badged" websites are repeated in several places of the MAMA series, each with slightly different text
182. # [09:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: from what I recall about iWeb output, yes
183. # [09:01] <BenMillard> why is the example of a "typical Doctype statement" an XHTML doctype when HTML was measured as being twice as common? Re: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-w3c-validator-research-2/?page=2#doctype & http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-key-findings/#structsize
184. # [09:03] <hsivonen> ooh. I have iWeb on my hard drive. Looks like my Mac came bundled with it.
185. # [09:09] <BenMillard> "MAMA looked anywhere in the document for a Doctype, but the validator only looks near the beginning of the document. A rather large set of URLs unfortunately fit this description." Philip` found something similar, IIRC
186. # [09:09] <BenMillard> (quoted from http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-w3c-validator-research-2/?page=2#doctype)
187. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> BenMillard: lot of good questions -- here's hoping blooberry will have some time to spend scrolling back through his IRC client buffer (or krijnh's logs)
188. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> but you might want to e-mail him some selected questions
189. # [09:14] * MikeSmith unfortunately finds no iWeb on his Mac
190. # [09:18] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, thanks and I hope so too! I'm continuing the commentary on MAMA which you started here: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081015#l-56
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192. # [09:18] <BenMillard> seems more valuable for it to be public
193. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> BenMillard: yeah, definitely
194. # [09:20] <annevk3> canPlayType, ugh
195. # [09:20] <annevk3> navigator.mimeTypes and friends are all epic fail, why add more?
196. # [09:21] <BenMillard> blooberry, the use of <code> and <strong> is inconsistent through these sections: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-w3c-validator-research-2/?page=2#charset
197. # [09:21] <BenMillard> bloo_sleep, when you awake ^^^
198. # [09:23] <BenMillard> man, this charset stuff is exhausting
199. # [09:25] <BenMillard> the "[Note: ...]" under "Number of failures" has remained inside the previous <p>: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-w3c-validator-research-2/?page=3
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201. # [09:29] <annevk3> Hixie, you have "never\n each" at some point
202. # [09:29] <annevk3> Hixie, that should be "never\n reach"
203. # [09:30] <BenMillard> "What IS of concern is how a page that is less than 250KB in size generates over 26MB from the validator's SOAP output mode." I've seen hsivonen and Hixie talk about combining multiple instances of certain errors and warnings into one entry for with the number of instances.
204. # [09:34] <BenMillard> "How can the Web-at-large strive to do better when these key companies do not seem to be trying harder?" -- http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-w3c-validator-research-2/?page=3#conclusion
205. # [09:37] * MikeSmith wonders which meetings hendry might be attending at the TPAC
206. # [09:39] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
207. # [09:40] <BenMillard> putting the TOC at the bottom makes it hard to navigate the MAMA series: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama/
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209. # [09:43] <BenMillard> this is worth bookmarking on its own merit: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-what-has-come-before/
210. # [09:44] <BenMillard> I think the studies Philip` has done should feature on there as well
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213. # [09:57] <annevk3> BenMillard, feel free to comment on the forum
214. # [09:59] <BenMillard> annevk3, I haven't anything else to say now :P
215. # [09:59] <annevk3> you could provide pointers ;)
216. # [10:00] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, I watched the Standards Suck episode with you in it yesterday and thought you described the various processes very well. I have a better understanding now, so thanks. :)
217. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> BenMillard: I'm glad it was useful to somebody. My main purpose in making that was to get video footage of Lachy laughing, so in personal terms for me it was a success :)
218. # [10:01] <BenMillard> indeed! :D
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221. # [10:20] <zcorpan> - attribute must be set to <a href=#dom-media-loading title=dom-media-LOADING>LOADING</a>.</li>
222. # [10:20] <zcorpan> + attribute must be set to <a href=#dom-media-network_idle title=dom-media-NETWORK_IDLE>NETWORK_IDLE</a>.</p>
223. # [10:20] <zcorpan> Hixie: was that intentional? ^
224. # [10:23] <Hixie> i believe so -- isn't LOADING then set later? (around the progress event_?)
225. # [10:24] * Hixie peers skeptically at his dreamhost invoice summary
226. # [10:24] <zcorpan> i haven't finished reading the diff :)
227. # [10:24] <zcorpan> it just looked like an unintentional search/replace to me
228. # [10:25] <Hixie> Previous Balance: $0.00; New Charges: $59.70; New Payments: $144.20; Balance Due: $10.84
229. # [10:25] * Hixie wonders if dreamhost are using bistromathics now
230. # [10:25] <Hixie> i didn't do any search/replace :-)
231. # [10:25] <Hixie> made all the changes manually :-/
232. # [10:25] * Joins: renke4 (n=user@Lf08d.l.pppool.de)
233. # [10:25] <Hixie> in an attempt to reduce the mistakes
234. # [10:26] <zcorpan> ok
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239. # [10:36] <hsivonen> BenMillard: part of the size problem may be SOAP :-)
240. # [10:37] <hendry> MikeSmith: mobile testing & observing web apps hopefully. later in the week HTML WG.
241. # [10:37] <hendry> hsivonen: are you attending the TPAC?
242. # [10:37] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
243. # [10:37] <hsivonen> hendry: yes
244. # [10:37] <hendry> oh cool
245. # [10:37] <hendry> Hixie: look forward to seeing there too :)
246. # [10:39] <gsnedders> ooo… new XKCD comic!
247. # [10:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: You say that as if it's unexpected for a new one to be released on the constant thrice-weekly schedule :-p
248. # [10:43] <gsnedders> Philip`: Oh, sure. :P
249. # [10:43] <gsnedders> Philip`: But I'm on holiday, and thus have no perception of time beyond the releasing of XKCD comics :)
250. # [10:44] <Philip`> gsnedders: There are more precise web sites for keeping of track of time, like http://www.whattimeisit.com/
251. # [10:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: But I don't look at that normally
252. # [10:46] <BenMillard> hsivonen, from what it said an HTML results page would've been even bigger...
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256. # [10:47] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
257. # [10:47] <hsivonen> BenMillard: &out=gnu FWT! :-)
258. # [10:48] <hsivonen> FTW even
259. # [10:48] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@pD957A226.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
260. # [10:48] * BenMillard looks up what that would produce...
261. # [10:48] <hsivonen> (an validator.nu, that is)
262. # [10:49] <Philip`> Does validator.w3.org's SOAP output guarantee well-formedness yet?
263. # [10:50] <hsivonen> s/an/on/
264. # [10:50] <hsivonen> typo++
265. # [10:50] <BenMillard> hsivonen, yeah I just tried this and it's cool: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accessifyforum.com%2Fforum2%2F&out=gnu
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275. # [11:39] <annevk3> Hixie, what you advocate for <video> with respect to accessibility seems at odds with what YouTube is doing, but maybe I'm missing something
276. # [11:39] <Hixie> what youtube is doing doesn't allow the video to be moved around
277. # [11:39] <Hixie> without losing subtitles
278. # [11:39] <Hixie> (and can be done with <video> without any UA-level support)
279. # [11:39] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
280. # [11:40] <annevk3> and easily without a Flash backend?
281. # [11:41] <annevk3> given e.g. Wikipedia, it seems much easier to have a video file and a separate subtitle file from an editing perspective than have them both in the same file requiring some backend to repackage the whole thing
282. # [11:41] <Hixie> what's flash got to do with it?
283. # [11:41] <Hixie> if you want to do subtitles manually with <video>, it's easy
284. # [11:41] <annevk3> Hixie, dunno, depends on how subtitles in YouTube are implemented
285. # [11:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: without UA support, do you mean script triggering on time-based callback?
286. # [11:42] <Hixie> yeah
287. # [11:42] <Hixie> with overlapped spans or whatever
288. # [11:42] <Hixie> not native subtitles
289. # [11:42] <annevk3> ah ok
290. # [11:42] <Hixie> what you want is real subtitles
291. # [11:42] <Hixie> which survive when you save the video file externally
292. # [11:42] * hsivonen has no idea how video playback integrates with the event loop
293. # [11:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: nothing really special there
294. # [11:43] <hsivonen> do browsers render video and audio on the UI thread?
295. # [11:44] <Hixie> i hope not
296. # [11:44] <annevk3> ok, that solution does work, but requires script
297. # [11:44] <hsivonen> if not, it would seem "special" to me :-)
298. # [11:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: ?
299. # [11:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't see what the actual playback has to do with the event loop really
300. # [11:44] <annevk3> if that's expected to be the common case of subtitles on the Web, and that seems plausible, we might want to do better
301. # [11:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: otherwise, painting is on the UI thread, isn't it?
302. # [11:44] <Hixie> annevk3: the common case should be subtitles in the video file
303. # [11:45] <annevk3> Hixie, that requires advanced editing software
304. # [11:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: sure
305. # [11:45] <Hixie> annevk3: so does making video
306. # [11:45] <annevk3> Hixie, shooting a video is trivial with a phone, camera, etc.
307. # [11:45] <annevk3> see YouTube
308. # [11:46] <Hixie> *shrug*
309. # [11:46] <Hixie> no reason youtube couldn't embed the subtitles in the video files as far as i can see
310. # [11:50] <hsivonen> what does YouTube do for iPhone and AppleTV when it comes to captions/subtitles?
311. # [11:50] <Hixie> exactly
312. # [11:50] <Hixie> (no idea what they do, but that kind of reuse is exactly why you need to have a single video file)
313. # [11:50] <annevk3> I don't see why that is needed for such reuse
314. # [11:50] <annevk3> also, again, if YouTube were to do that, that would require complex software on the server, which seems out of reach if people want to upload videos to their own site, etc.
315. # [11:50] * hsivonen wonders if the 3GPP-oriented video player shipping on S60r3.1 supports 3GPP Timed Text
316. # [11:51] * bloo_sleep is now known as bloo
317. # [11:51] * bloo is now known as blooberry
318. # [11:51] <Hixie> merging subtitles into an MPEG stream on the fly is trivial as i understand it
319. # [11:52] * Joins: Mustafa51 (n=mustafa@122.165.2.34)
320. # [12:01] <blooberry> philip`: yt?
321. # [12:03] <Hixie> ok bed time for the day.
322. # [12:03] <Hixie> nn
323. # [12:07] * Quits: Maghnus (n=Maghnus@68-190-147-184.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
324. # [12:08] * blooberry thinks BenMillard had a lot of great comments on MAMA and wishes he was still on
325. # [12:08] * Joins: Maghnus (n=Maghnus@68-190-147-184.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com)
326. # [12:09] * blooberry is doing the same in reverse: "BenMillard: blooberry looks like someone I should talk to a lot, reading back the logs." :)
327. # [12:12] <wilhelm> Any interesting responses to the MAMA publication yet? (c:
328. # [12:13] <annevk3> see logs for comments from Ben
329. # [12:16] <blooberry> wilhelm: yeah, Ben's comments were great...lots of excellent commentary and I agree with many parts and have many responses. I don't know whether to reply with him in absentia due to the logs ability or wait.8-}
330. # [12:20] <wilhelm> Yeah, read through the backlog now.
331. # [12:23] <mpt> Wow, is that the same blooberry that taught me HTML 4?
332. # [12:26] <blooberry> mpt: maybe? www.blooberry.com/indexdot ?
333. # [12:26] <mpt> indeed :-)
334. # [12:26] <mpt> Many thanks sir
335. # [12:26] <annevk3> gotta love http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2008/10/tpac-what-wg-teamster.html :D
336. # [12:27] <hsivonen> I wonder if there's a page that matches the criteria at http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-the-average-web-page/ (except for mutually contradictory criteria)
337. # [12:27] <blooberry> many welcomes 8-} *wishes I had time lately to update that site for all the latest browsers)
338. # [12:28] <blooberry> hsivonen: I don't know. That was mostly an intellectual exercise that doesn't (of course) hold a lot of water in aggregate
339. # [12:28] <mpt> blooberry, yes, I would have thought Google would have hired you to work on Doctype
340. # [12:30] <blooberry> They grabbed hixie from Opera to work on html5. Good hire. ;-}
341. # [12:31] <Dashiva> I heard it was more like Hixie threw himself at them to get into their pants (i.e. search index) ;)
342. # [12:32] <blooberry> dashiva: Well, one can't argue with "size" envy. 8-} MAMA was much, MUCH smaller at the time and couldn't answer many of his then-pressing questions.
343. # [12:32] * blooberry daydreams of billion-page indices
344. # [12:32] <mpt> ooo
345. # [12:33] <mpt> So there are now at least two people here who can answer a question I've had for the past seven-ish years:
346. # [12:33] <mpt> What is the average number of resources that need to be loaded, in total, to display any HTML page?
347. # [12:33] <blooberry> you mean "just HOW rabid is hixie about stargate?"
348. # [12:34] <mpt> average number of unique resources, that is
349. # [12:35] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
350. # [12:35] <blooberry> We can look at some of those things in isolation first, before combining them
351. # [12:37] <blooberry> like inline images were used in over 90% of pages. average total image usage was ~20, with unique references averaging about 12.
352. # [12:38] <blooberry> I didn't look at image file size this time because I was worried about the performance hit, but I'll probably include that in the future
353. # [12:39] <blooberry> but now we'd also have to look at plug-ins, frames/iframes, external scripts, external css as well.
354. # [12:39] * Joins: hdh0 (n=hdh@58.187.62.19)
355. # [12:40] <blooberry> In the writeup I've tried to address each of these areas in isolation...hopefully an aggregate picture arises from that
356. # [12:41] <mpt> The reason I ask is that it's a clue to giving browsers a page-loading progress bar that is, on average, smooth
357. # [12:45] <blooberry> you mean perhaps giving an indication of the typical state of affairs for the "average" user encountering a web page and their browsing experience?
358. # [12:47] * annevk3 would expect that number to increase over time
359. # [12:47] <mpt> I mean the browser giving a better guess of how much of the overall page has loaded, when it doesn't yet know the sizes of all the resources involved, and may not yet even bet at the point where it knows how many there will be.
360. # [12:47] <blooberry> annevk3: me too. 8-/
361. # [12:48] <mpt> As opposed to the Internet Explorer progress bar behavior of starting out as if the page will have no images etc at all and therefore slowing to a crawl, or the Safari behavior of (as best I can tell) treating the last resource as if it's going to be much bigger than all the others.
362. # [12:49] <mpt> bet -> be
363. # [12:49] <annevk3> Opera isn't great at all with that either
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366. # [12:56] <mpt> afaict Opera doesn't even try to show a progress bar for non-HTML stuff
367. # [12:59] <annevk3> it does
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369. # [13:08] * blooberry is sometimes annoyed by Opera's behavior with some pages where the overall download object count in the progress bar just keeps slowly increasing. It feels like Monty Python and the Spanish Inquisition.
370. # [13:08] * Joins: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
371. # [13:08] <BenMillard> blooberry, hi glad they went down well. :)
372. # [13:08] <blooberry> benmillard: hi!
373. # [13:10] <blooberry> benmillard: I have lots of comments to your comments. 8-}
374. # [13:10] * Quits: Mustafa51 (n=mustafa@122.165.2.34)
375. # [13:11] <BenMillard> blooberry, fire away :)
376. # [13:12] <blooberry> I've seen some of Philip`s results here, but I hadn't (especially at the time of the write up) seen anything "official"...not that that matters much. I'd be happy to list his work but I think when I asked him before he didn't have something over-arching or permanent to give.
377. # [13:13] <BenMillard> blooberry, here's one I remember: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/index
378. # [13:14] <hsivonen> http://www.google.fi/search?q=http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/stats/&filter=0
379. # [13:15] <BenMillard> (with English UI: http://www.google.com/search?q=http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/stats/&filter=0)
380. # [13:15] <blooberry> Cool. I will ask him if he wants to be included and will definitely do so.
381. # [13:19] <blooberry> As for pre-dating MAMA, Ian's published work is similar but was more stats-centric and not so focused on individual cases. Plus when he was with Opera I had worked with him and others in brainstorming ideas for new features. He was just able to leverage Google's set much more quickly than I was (it was a part time project for me back then)
382. # [13:21] <BenMillard> I've seen Ian give specific stats after doing specific crawls, but these were within the past year or two
383. # [13:21] <BenMillard> my understanding of "now" is "at the time these words were published" :)
384. # [13:22] <BenMillard> like, searching for how often headers+id is used and how much of that isn't bogus
385. # [13:22] <blooberry> Regarding the ELEMENT Attribute style, I wanted each to stand out from each other, especially as I'd be mentioning elements and attributes ALL over the place. 8-} and I didn't know the eventual publishing environment. This was a good move now that I know the dev.opera environment a little better (it is terrible, btw 8-/)
386. # [13:23] <BenMillard> blooberry, FWIW I tend to write <element> and either "the foo attribute" or <element attribute>
387. # [13:23] <BenMillard> other people working on HTML5 use attribute=""
388. # [13:24] <BenMillard> <code>title</code> is different enough from <code>&lt;code></code> for me, but that might just be me :P
389. # [13:24] <blooberry> I know he's done more recent incremental studies with (I think) smaller URL sets. Evidently arranging for using/analyzing a bulk of Google's set takes some finagling
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391. # [13:26] <blooberry> It was really just a convention I started using early on to distinguish elements and attributes though. No specific agenda. 8-D
392. # [13:28] <blooberry> <BenMillard> it's weird how the tables have 2 entries per row...not quite enough space to transpose the table to have 1 entry per column but they could have 1 entry per row
393. # [13:28] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66) (Remote closed the connection)
394. # [13:30] <blooberry> ok, THAT one pissed me off yesterday...I originally wrote such tables with a cheesy gutter in the middle to create a 2-column group. Mostly to present enough data in as short a vertical space as possible for larger tables. So when the dev.opera gatekeep tells me yesterday that dev.opera somehow STRIPS OUT rowspans...*shakes head* I don't get it. I guess it isn't allowed. Apparently I'm stuck. But I will pursue a solution because as i
395. # [13:30] <blooberry> hard to read. In some cases in later documents I have *3* groups side by side.
396. # [13:31] <BenMillard> I see...
397. # [13:32] <BenMillard> I think squishing more data into less vertical space is unhelpful for data tables, especially those which are ranked in a specific order
398. # [13:33] <BenMillard> one entry per row would keep the order straight up-and-down
399. # [13:33] <blooberry> bold/red for positive numbers: again, I didn't know the environment the data would live in. I had to choose between keeping a class that actually specified some metadata on the contents...that they were numbers. Or, I could choose appearance. Another dev.opera limitation is that you can't specify your own external stylesheets. So I had to leverage on existing stock classes. Much to my chagrine. ;-}
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401. # [13:35] <BenMillard> blooberry, I guess this feedback should be passed on to those gatekeepers then, as the same editorial choices are likely to be present in other documents they maintain?
402. # [13:35] <BenMillard> Bruce Lawson's message here makes me think changes for the better can happen: http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=10824#62695
403. # [13:36] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-cfb47fcfc17ef116)
404. # [13:36] <BenMillard> (I'm registered as Cerbera on that forum and was giving feedback on the Web Curriculum in that thread.)
405. # [13:36] <blooberry> oh, and the validation errors on the articles were fixed. That was just some 3AM sloppiness on my part. 8-} On the main validation document, since day 1 I had a prominent H1 comment emblazoned at the very type "MAKE SURE THIS DOCUMENT VALIDATES!!!" heheh.
406. # [13:37] <BenMillard> hehe, happens to everyone -- as your research found! :)
407. # [13:39] <blooberry> Totally. The incidental validating evidence I list about reasons for failing to validate actually happened to me yesterday.
408. # [13:40] <blooberry> "Strict Doctype flavors pass validation at much higher rates (17.5%) than Transitional (8.4%) or Frameset (7.2%)."
409. # [13:41] <blooberry> I really like that the people who "do" Strict or "move to" strict really seem to put forth more effort in making things validate. It is like, they've gone THIS far, so they might as well take that long, last big step.
410. # [13:42] <blooberry> ""Required attribute X not specified" is probably <img alt>, I'd guess": I actually wish I could have done more here.
411. # [13:43] <BenMillard> blooberry, there seem to be phases of authoring ability in which the step from Transitional to Strict is like a rite of passage. :)
412. # [13:43] <blooberry> That validation pass was really my first big experiment with the validator...I wasn't at all sure how big the result set would be.
413. # [13:43] <blooberry> So I was ambitious yet conservative.
414. # [13:44] <blooberry> If I had unlimited storage, I would have stored each error, with each error's argument type separately, aggregating the data by those variables.
415. # [13:45] <blooberry> Instead of aggregating by error code, it would be by error code AND the error's variable arguments
416. # [13:45] <blooberry> but that would blossom the error storage requirements. Plus the SOAP output doesn't make that easy. 8-}
417. # [13:47] <blooberry> "the pagination links at the bottom are better than those at the top: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-w3c-validator-research-2/ ": I agree. This was originally 1 long article, but due to more dev.opera constraints it had to be broken up. I actually requested the text links between parts at the top to help top-down random access. So...mostly my fault. ;-}
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463. # [13:49] <annevk3> oops
464. # [13:49] <annevk3> netsplit?
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511. # [13:50] <BenMillard> blooberry, if the top links were in the style of the bottom links, I think it would be fine
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513. # [13:51] <blooberry> "Sticking rigorously to a standard..." on http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-w3c-validator-research-2/#whatuse : Hmm. You are right. I'll get that taken care of.
514. # [13:51] <BenMillard> btw, I think it's very cool how receptive you are to feedback :)
515. # [13:51] <hsivonen> hmm. the word "astronauts" has disappeared from the title and description of session 2 on TPAC day
516. # [13:51] <BenMillard> I want you to know that I appreciate that it's a huge piece of work
517. # [13:51] <annevk3> hsivonen, pointer?
518. # [13:51] <hsivonen> annevk3: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/TPDay-Agenda.html
519. # [13:52] <blooberry> well, the top links were added statically, the bottom navigation thing is produced automatically, I'm told.
520. # [13:53] <BenMillard> blooberry, producing both automatically would be best, imho, as it would improve all paginated articles
521. # [13:55] <blooberry> thanks. 8-} I'm really glad it is finally seeing the light of day.
522. # [13:57] <blooberry> Totally agreed. But Chris (Mills) conveyed that dev.opera just can't do it that way right now/yet. 8-{
523. # [13:57] <hsivonen> it would have interesting to see Hixie on the architecture panel
524. # [13:57] <blooberry> I think my articles are stressing the boundaries of the dev.opera system too much. 8-D
525. # [13:59] <BenMillard> blooberry, that seems to be the case for some Curriculum articles as well...the popularity of these publications should encourage improvements to the system over time?
526. # [14:00] <blooberry> "results about validation on "badged" websites are repeated in several places of the MAMA series, each with slightly different text": I tried not to repeat or rehash too much.
527. # [14:00] <BenMillard> blooberry, it felt like 3 different places covered it...I may have got confused and re-read earlier instances though
528. # [14:00] <blooberry> re: curriculum articles. I hope so. Chris already seems as much an advocate for change as I am just now becoming (are the tenses in that sentence even close to being correct??)
529. # [14:01] <blooberry> The "key findings" document was added recently, and the badges info has repeatedly stood out as being an "interesting" finding of all this and worthy of repeat. But I prefer not to repeat myself repeat myself too much
530. # [14:02] <BenMillard> lol :D
531. # [14:03] * blooberry takes a small break to work on a blog post about MAMA that is overdue
532. # [14:05] <hsivonen> hmm. annoying. the doctype name is an interned string in Gecko, but the spec requires a case-insenstive compare
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553. # [14:06] <Dashiva> split, split
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574. # [14:24] <hsivonen> argh. the damowmow portal doesn't work in IE8
575. # [14:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: the multipage version of the spec tells me it has been updated even if I click Reload
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579. # [14:39] <Philip`> blooberry: I'm here now
580. # [14:40] <Philip`> blooberry: http://philip.html5.org/data.html is the closest thing to a summary of my stuff that's spread all over the place, so it'd probably be the best place to link
581. # [14:41] <Philip`> though maybe I should make it more comprehensive, and/or organise it better so it's easier to find the less rubbish things
582. # [14:41] <Philip`> mpt: If by average you mean mean, then the concept of averages doesn't really make sense - e.g. I could make one page with an infinite number of external resources, and then the average per page will be infinite. So you need a more complex view of the distribution of values, else it'll be silly :-)
583. # [14:42] <blooberry> philip`: Yeah, I found I had to discard some values due to out of control conditions
584. # [14:43] <blooberry> I occasionally ran into pages fed by databases that were caught in infinite loops. Those were fun and crashy before I instituted a max page size. 8-}
585. # [14:43] <Philip`> I had that problem with a radio station, which was streaming MP3 over HTTP and was linked from dmoz.org
586. # [14:44] <Philip`> and I couldn't quite work out how to make the HttpClient library stop downloading after a certain point, so I just had to ctrl-c it and remove that URL from the list :-/
587. # [14:45] <blooberry> philip`: Do you want me to wait or should I use that link then?
588. # [14:47] <Philip`> blooberry: You might have to wait an unbounded amount of time, since I don't plan to actually update that page in the near future; so if you want to link to anything, it'd probably be best to just link to the current version of that page
589. # [14:47] <mpt> Philip`, the mean of all reasonably-measurably-finite pages :-)
590. # [14:47] <blooberry> I'm ok with waiting until you have something you like better/want to put out there...ah, ok.
591. # [14:47] <Philip`> mpt: Then I'll just make a site with an infinite number of reasonably-measurable finite pages, to force the mean to whatever value I want :-)
592. # [14:47] <mpt> Philip`, and weighting pages by popularity would make it even more accurate (but would be correspondingly more difficult)
593. # [14:48] <mpt> Philip`, there are already sites like that, honeypots for spammers
594. # [14:51] <Philip`> Averages destroy almost all of the information anyway, and even if you measured stuff like standard deviation then you'd e.g. be losing the interesting bumps in http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/charts/unique-elements-per-page.svg
595. # [14:54] <blooberry> I had done a bunch of standard deviation calculations for the validation study in MAMA, but a co-worker persuaded me that it was mostly superfluous noise to do so in those cases.
596. # [14:59] <Philip`> It's probably nice to indicate the difference between e.g. an error which lots of pages have several times, and an error which most pages don't have (or almost never have) but a few pages have thousands of times
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598. # [14:59] <Philip`> but I don't know how you can concisely indicate that kind of information to a reader
599. # [15:01] <Philip`> (I suppose for most readers it won't make any difference anyway because they're just reading it for entertainment and you could have made up all the numbers; I'm not sure exactly who would care about the actual data or what they'd want to do with it, so I have no idea how to present it to them)
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601. # [15:01] * blooberry is NOT an expert or even anything like an afficionado of graphing... (but would a 2 plane graph be interesting to present that sort of thing?)
602. # [15:02] <Philip`> Not quite sure what you mean by "a 2 plane graph"
603. # [15:02] <Philip`> I guess you could use a histogram, but they're not very concise
604. # [15:03] <blooberry> me neither 8-} ...trying to find a visualization to describe it
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606. # [15:05] <mpt> Philip`, my original question was for progress bars, not error reports
607. # [15:05] <mpt> oh neat, that's just what I was looking for, thanks :-)
608. # [15:06] <Philip`> mpt: Uh, I don't think that's anything like what you said you were looking for
609. # [15:06] <blooberry> hmm.not finding one based on my searches. What I meant was, you have an ordinary 2d graph of error type versus URL frequency. right angle to that plane you have 2d graph of error type versus quantity, with error type being the common intersection line between the planes. (have no idea if that is clear at all...or if it would even be a helpful visualization)
610. # [15:06] <Philip`> (http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/pages.html is the context)
611. # [15:06] <mpt> oh, *HTML* elements
612. # [15:06] <mpt> bother
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614. # [15:07] <Philip`> mpt: You want to count the total number of distinct images, scripts, iframes, etc, and transitively count all the contents of iframes, etc?
615. # [15:08] <mpt> Philip`, if by transitively you mean recursively, yes
616. # [15:08] <hsivonen> hmm. the Adobe guy on the Open Web Podcast says Adobe would love to be a part of the HTML5 video story
617. # [15:09] <hsivonen> also, some changes in Flash Player licensing
618. # [15:09] <Philip`> blooberry: I think I see what you're saying, but it sounds kind of like it'd turn into a confusing mess of lines when it's rendered on a 2D screen :-(
619. # [15:09] <Philip`> mpt: I do mean recursively
620. # [15:10] * Philip` is thinking too mathsishly
621. # [15:10] <mpt> I know that value would be in the formula somewhere, but I don't know enough maths to know what the formula would be anyway
622. # [15:12] <Philip`> Hmm, am I being confused?
623. # [15:12] <Philip`> I thought the only relevant formula is like "a + b + c + ...", where a is the number of distinct images on the page or whatever, etc
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625. # [15:14] <Philip`> Anyway I expect it'd be pretty hard to count because you want to include all the ads, which are probably commonly document.written in crazy ways, so it's hard to statically determine how much stuff you'll have to load
626. # [15:14] <mpt> hm, true
627. # [15:15] <Philip`> (and the range would be large enough that the average would be pretty useless, and there isn't really any information you can know in advance to do a better prediction for a given page)
628. # [15:16] <mpt> And since waiting for server response is a non-trivial part of the overall time for 3rd-party ads etc, maybe it's best measured by just throwing thousands of pages at a browser rather than throwing millions of pages at a script
629. # [15:16] <blooberry> philip`: yeah, it would probably be pretty visually confusing.
630. # [15:17] * Philip` is happy if the progress bar just animates prettily while it's actively doing work, and stops animating if it's lost the network connection or everything has stalled, and he doesn't care much about knowing the actual progress percentage :-)
631. # [15:17] * Philip` goes away for an hour or so
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642. # [16:24] <gsnedders> hiho
643. # [16:25] <gsnedders> http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2008/10/tpac-what-wg-teamster.html — :D
644. # [16:26] <gsnedders> I do like how he failed to find a horrible photo of me
645. # [16:26] <gsnedders> Though I guess most horrid ones are on private bebo pages :P
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652. # [16:38] <hsivonen> on the TPAC panel, I have a position statement that takes 15 sentences.
653. # [16:39] <annevk3> you're on a panel?
654. # [16:39] * Joins: Morphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
655. # [16:39] <hsivonen> the only way I know how to make slides for those is to make put each sentence on a slide and change slides at sentence pace...
656. # [16:39] <hsivonen> annevk3: yes
657. # [16:40] <annevk3> what other people are on that panel?
658. # [16:40] <hsivonen> annevk3: T.V. Raman, Charles Wiecha and Erik Dahlström
659. # [16:41] <annevk3> topic?
660. # [16:41] <hsivonen> Future of XML ecosystem in W3C client-side work
661. # [16:41] <annevk3> that could be fun :)
662. # [16:41] <zcorpan> Hixie: can't you have playcount='-1' to represent loop forever?
663. # [16:42] <hsivonen> oh. John Boyer is on the panel, too.
664. # [16:42] <annevk3> hsivonen, maybe just provide pointers in your slides or have no slides at all?
665. # [16:42] <annevk3> nice, I hope nobody holds back :)
666. # [16:43] <Philip`> zcorpan: That's not exactly intuitive
667. # [16:43] <Philip`> zcorpan: and nobody reads the documentation
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669. # [16:43] <Philip`> zcorpan: so if they read a page containing playcount=-1 they won't know what it means, and if they want to write an infinitely looping video then they won't be able to guess what they have to type
670. # [16:44] * annevk3 is in favor of dropping loop attributes
671. # [16:44] <annevk3> would still allow configuration of your UA to stop looping
672. # [16:45] * Philip` would have thought infinite looping was much more common than finite looping, so it's odd that the latter is supported while the former isn't
673. # [16:45] <gsnedders> Shows your thought ability.
674. # [16:45] <Lachy> what are the use cases for looping video at all?
675. # [16:46] <annevk3> presentational effects I assume
676. # [16:46] <Philip`> Lachy: Incredibly annoying ads
677. # [16:46] <Philip`> which would want to loop infinitely, to be as annoying as possible
678. # [16:47] <Lachy> but the kind of ads that are produced as videos generally don't loop infinitely.
679. # [16:48] <Lachy> e.g. the Ads inserted by YouTube into their full length TV shows, or the Get a Mac ads published by Apple on their website
680. # [16:48] <Philip`> Those ads aren't intended to be annoying, so they're atypical
681. # [16:49] <Lachy> well, the YouTube ones are reportedly unskippable, so they're a little annoying
682. # [16:49] <hendry> what has happened to clientinformation ? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2007-10-26/multipage/section-browser.html#clientinformation
683. # [16:49] <hendry> it's dissapeared from the current spec or renamed?
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685. # [16:50] <Philip`> I'm thinking of the ones where you visit a web page, and a little box in the corner of the screen starts downloading and displaying ugly low-quality video and probably plays sound effects, to advertise some kind of irrelevant product that you don't care about
686. # [16:51] <Lachy> so you think people will start using <video> as a replacement for Flash?
687. # [16:51] <annevk3> hendry, renamed
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689. # [16:51] * annevk3 looks
690. # [16:51] <gsnedders> hendry: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#system-state-and-capabilities
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694. # [16:52] <Philip`> hendry: Merged into Navigator in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-commits/2008Aug/0110.html
695. # [16:52] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Connection reset by peer)
696. # [16:52] <annevk3> ah, seems gsnedders was already looking :)
697. # [16:52] <gsnedders> annevk3: :)
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702. # [16:55] <zcorpan> Philip`: authors read other authors' code
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706. # [16:56] * gsnedders wonders what will manage to cope with blockquote:only-child *:first-child::before
707. # [16:56] <Philip`> zcorpan: Those authors will see playcount=-1 and not know what it means
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709. # [16:57] <gsnedders> hah.
710. # [16:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: html5 used to case-fold doctype name before the big quirks revamp. iirc, mozilla used to never uppercase, but started to do so at some point (because html5 said to uppercase)
711. # [16:57] <gsnedders> MSN for OS X copes!
712. # [16:57] <gsnedders> No, it doesn't
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714. # [16:57] <gsnedders> It falls down on the ::before
715. # [16:57] <zcorpan> Philip`: no they will se a looping video and go "hmm wonder how they did that" and then copy the <video> tag
716. # [16:58] <Philip`> zcorpan: And then they'll change the -1 to -2 because that's like twice as good
717. # [16:58] <zcorpan> Philip`: so the spec could say that any negative number means infinate
718. # [16:58] <zcorpan> Philip`: compare with tabindex :)
719. # [16:59] <zcorpan> i haven't seen tabindex=-2
720. # [16:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you recall if there was a reason to stop case folding as part of the quirks revamp?
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723. # [16:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i guess Hixie looked at mozilla source code and did what mozilla did
724. # [17:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but i don't know
725. # [17:00] <zcorpan> i also don't know why mozilla started to uppercase it, i'm just guessing :)
726. # [17:00] <annevk3> they did that because of html5lib tests
727. # [17:01] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
728. # [17:01] <annevk3> sayrer implemented that
729. # [17:01] <zcorpan> ok
730. # [17:01] <hsivonen> I must have missed the bugzilla trail
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732. # [17:02] <hendry> are plugins and JS allow to set values on navigator?
733. # [17:07] <Philip`> zcorpan: There's http://www.nhstateparks.org/state-parks/alphabetical-order/annett-wayside-park/ with <iframe tabindex="-32768" ...> :-)
734. # [17:07] <Philip`> (Well, there was some months ago)
735. # [17:07] <zcorpan> Philip`: nice :)
736. # [17:07] <Philip`> (<iframe tabindex="-32768" src="/content/state-parks/alphabetical-order/weather/annett-wayside-park.htm" frameborder="0" height="300" scrolling="auto" width="200"></iframe>)
737. # [17:08] * zcorpan wonders whether that's conforming html5 or if just -1 is conforming
738. # [17:09] <zcorpan> or should be...
739. # [17:12] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
740. # [17:12] <annevk3> in any case, doing what hsivonen suggests makes sense
741. # [17:12] <annevk3> it simplifies code, is more consistent, and he'll fix it for the one correct impl :)
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743. # [17:13] <Philip`> zcorpan: ...but that's the only case I can find with (?i)tabindex=.?-[^1] so I'd have to agree that setting it to -2 is quite rare :-)
744. # [17:13] * blooberry is now known as bloo_sleep
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759. # [17:49] <Philip`> Does <source pixelratio> actually do anything?
760. # [17:50] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-63f3bf670aee9510)
761. # [17:51] * Philip` is wondering whether it would end up get rounded to integers, so 0.909090909 would be identical to 10/11 as long as your video was smaller than five billion pixels
762. # [17:53] <gsnedders> http://gsnedders.com/about-the-author — anyone able to come up with anything good for that?
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764. # [17:54] <Philip`> gsnedders: The topic in this channel should probably be changed at some point :-)
765. # [17:54] <hsivonen> minibios are hard to write
766. # [17:55] <gsnedders> Philip`: I should also probably upload it at some point :)
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768. # [17:58] * Dashiva wonders why Hixie changed OS to "other" to mark a bug as delayed
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778. # [18:12] <annevk3> http://twitter.com/motleyceo/statuses/960778535
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781. # [18:18] <Philip`> For security reasons, I think the 'required' attribute should be renamed to 'required-(but-validate-this-on-the-server-side-too)'
782. # [18:20] <Philip`> At least for the next several years it'll be obvious that you can't rely on WF2's client-side validation, since most client-sides won't implement it and so anyone writing tutorials will include a note to say that; the problems are likely to come much further in the future, when everyone supports client-side validation
783. # [18:21] <gsnedders> Apart from 1337 hack0r browser
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785. # [18:23] <Philip`> zcorpan: Oops, I spoke too soon about tabindex
786. # [18:23] <Philip`> http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/ had <a href="http://fastcounter.bcentral.com/fc-join" target="_top" TABINDEX="-2">
787. # [18:23] <Philip`> and http://web.jaes.tpc.edu.tw/ had lots of <a tabIndex="-32768" href="http://epaper.edu.tw" target="_blank">
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789. # [18:28] <Philip`> gsnedders: You should fix about-the-author to not include </br>
790. # [18:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: Habari's autop has far bigger bugs. meh.
791. # [18:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: And don't distract me from my work!
792. # [18:30] <Philip`> Autop?
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796. # [18:31] <gsnedders> automagically adds p and br tags, but does it too much
797. # [18:32] <Philip`> Oh
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799. # [18:32] <Philip`> It messes up the layout of the page quite badly
800. # [18:33] <gsnedders> not in Safari :P
801. # [18:33] <gsnedders> nor in Fx 3
802. # [18:34] <Philip`> It does in Opera - that blockquote gets indented a lot
803. # [18:35] <gsnedders> Hmm, that's right per HTML 5, I think
804. # [18:35] <gsnedders> (blockquote:only-child stops it from being)
805. # [18:36] <Philip`> Why is it different in the other browsers?
806. # [18:37] <gsnedders> Dunno
807. # [18:37] <Philip`> (But you should use class instead of fancy selectors :-p )
808. # [18:37] <gsnedders> Saf has no <br> in the DOM
809. # [18:37] <gsnedders> so it only has one child
810. # [18:37] <gsnedders> it just ignores the /br
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838. # [20:46] * hsivonen extends his position to 18 sentences
839. # [20:49] * Joins: KrocCamen (n=kroc@80-194-189-199.cable.ubr03.craw.blueyonder.co.uk)
840. # [20:53] <Philip`> Sounds like quite a complex position
841. # [20:54] * bloo_sleep is now known as blooberry
842. # [20:59] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.17.251)
843. # [21:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: the short version is "Let's make the text/html parser insert SVG DOM nodes."
844. # [21:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: the rest is explaining why
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856. # [21:58] <Hixie> hsivonen: why do you think it would be interesting to see me on the arch panel?
857. # [22:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: you clearly have opinions about architecture, and those opinions presumably differ from the opinions of TAG members
858. # [22:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: so it would be interesting to hear how they respond to your opinions and you to theirs
859. # [22:00] <Hixie> we know how they'll respond
860. # [22:00] <Hixie> "sending passwords in the clear is always wrong."
861. # [22:05] <Philip`> They don't seem to be able to agree that it's always wrong
862. # [22:06] <Hixie> which is ridiculous, because it _is_ always wrong, it's just that correctness isn't the only constraint
863. # [22:06] <Hixie> sometimes one has to compromise on ideals
864. # [22:06] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
865. # [22:07] <Hixie> eric_carlson: do you or your colleagues have a position on whether we should keep the looping attributes on <video>?
866. # [22:07] <eric_carlson> Hixie: I was just going to reply to the thread
867. # [22:07] <Hixie> cool, great
868. # [22:08] <Philip`> But if you're writing a normative document with MUSTs and SHOULDs and PROBABLY OUGHT TOs and so on then you shouldn't write down MUST requirements that might have to be compromised on, which seems like it might be their problem
869. # [22:09] <eric_carlson> Hixie: I do think that looping can be useful, and it can be very difficult to make it seamless in script
870. # [22:09] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
871. # [22:10] <eric_carlson> Hixie: "loopstart" and "loopend" aren't essential
872. # [22:10] <KrocCamen> Javascript shouldn't be assumed, it's for joining actions together. One example of a loop might be for a complex animated background of sorts. Ancillary uses of "video".
873. # [22:10] <Hixie> eric_carlson: there are lots of things that fall into that category, the question is are they common enough to warrant supporting in version 1, really
874. # [22:10] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
875. # [22:11] <KrocCamen> Also, if you think of a DVD menu. It has looping animated video buttons / background. (S5+Video õ_o)
876. # [22:12] <Hixie> dvd menus are pretty much the pinacle of what i want to avoid us ever doing :-P
877. # [22:13] <KrocCamen> I'm just thinking broadly, I could cringe too :)
878. # [22:13] <Hixie> i agree that dvd menus have looping
879. # [22:14] <Hixie> does anyone on the web want to do looping of video in that way?
880. # [22:14] <eric_carlson> Hixie: I think a valid use-case for looping is background audio.
881. # [22:15] <Hixie> hmm, very good point
882. # [22:15] <KrocCamen> With the HTML5 changes, I'm thinking of the content / design issues of my site, where I have no classes and no javascript. HTML5 not being Javascript or CSS, should ensure that my site is fully functional without replicating document-structure in Javascript/CSS. (My main complaint-example is the removal of the "type" attribute on OL/UL)
883. # [22:15] <Hixie> so the current features we have totally fail at looping background audio
884. # [22:15] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
885. # [22:15] <Hixie> seems like if that's our use case, we should replace the whole set of features with a single boolean attribute, "loop when you get to the end"
886. # [22:15] <eric_carlson> Hixie: agreed
887. # [22:16] <Hixie> ok that would be nice and easy to do
888. # [22:16] <Hixie> and would get out of our way on the issue of picking the start point
889. # [22:16] <KrocCamen> What about ads? They loop. Would beat using Flash.
890. # [22:17] <eric_carlson> While we are simplifying things, I don't think that "loopstart" and "loopend" are common enough to keep.
891. # [22:18] <Hixie> i would be dropping all five attributes -- start, end, loopstart, loopend, and playcount -- and replacing them with a single attribute, loop, that is either on or off
892. # [22:18] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.244.17.22)
893. # [22:18] <Hixie> at least, that's what i'd like to do
894. # [22:18] <Hixie> leaving just two DOM attributes, one to reflect loop, and one to report the current loop number
895. # [22:18] <Hixie> which starts at zero and increments on end
896. # [22:20] <KrocCamen> What if they were one and the same. 0 = false, >1 = true, count.
897. # [22:20] <KrocCamen> correction >=1
898. # [22:21] <eric_carlson> Hixie: "start" and "end" *can* be very useful
899. # [22:22] <Hixie> eric_carlson: oh i agree, but i think we should use a better story for "start", and it's unclear that "end" really has enough of a solid story and enough use cases for us to really do it in version 1
900. # [22:23] <eric_carlson> Hixie: wasn't it you that was just arguing that addCueRange() needs the pauseOnExit parameter because it is too difficult to stop precisely from script :)
901. # [22:24] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
902. # [22:24] * virtuelv_ is now known as arve
903. # [22:25] * arve is now known as virtuelv
904. # [22:25] <Hixie> eric_carlson: sure, but you can use addCueRange() to implement end="" for that case. :-)
905. # [22:29] <eric_carlson> Hixie: true, but you won't be able to loop a portion of file.
906. # [22:29] <eric_carlson> Hixie: or limit playback to just a portion, eg one chapter.
907. # [22:30] <KrocCamen> What about a game
908. # [22:30] <KrocCamen> ^ What about the SFX for a game. To reduce HTTP requests, put the soundbank in one audio file
909. # [22:31] <KrocCamen> (I'm writing a Javascript/Canvas game, and sound is an unknown atm)
910. # [22:31] <Hixie> eric_carlson: is that needed much?
911. # [22:31] <eric_carlson> Hixie: good question
912. # [22:32] <Hixie> KrocCamen: there has been talk of doing that using archive files
913. # [22:32] <eric_carlson> Hixie: and it is possible if you also don't use the native controls
914. # [22:32] <Hixie> KrocCamen: so you download a zip file of audio files and play them
915. # [22:32] <Hixie> eric_carlson: yeah
916. # [22:33] <KrocCamen> Hixie: Excellent, so good. It'd be nice to support JARs too, so you can include 10 js files all in one or something. Or a whole file structure of js/audio/images in a jar file, all inserted into a virtual file system as if the files were in the website's normal file structure. That sort of thing would be good for web apps / games.
917. # [22:33] <eric_carlson> Hixie: OK, I agree that it is not a common usage, and it is possible to do with a custom controller.
918. # [22:34] <eric_carlson> Hixie: still not possible to do seamless looping of a portion of a file, but I am not sure that is a common need.
919. # [22:35] <annevk3> Hixie, also, it provides a way to get feedback from W3C Members in a way they like giving feedback
920. # [22:36] <Hixie> KrocCamen: yeah, jar=zip
921. # [22:36] <annevk3> Hixie, since you're around anyway losing an hour of HTML editing time doesn't seem much of a loss and there's potential gain
922. # [22:36] <Hixie> eric_carlson: well there's always going to be things we can't do, the key is to make sure we can do the important ones, and do the others later
923. # [22:37] <eric_carlson> Hixie: Agreed
924. # [22:37] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-22-123.dyn.iinet.net.au)
925. # [22:37] <Hixie> annevk3: i see no potential gain (there was no gain from the panels i was in last year, or the year before, or the year before that) and an hour is a lot of time.
926. # [22:38] <annevk3> but it probably has benefited other people
927. # [22:38] <Hixie> i'm unclear on that
928. # [22:39] <annevk3> more mutual understanding helps communication going forward
929. # [22:39] <eric_carlson> Hixie: while we are on the subject of "is that needed much", I am not sure that "pixelRatio" passes the smell test
930. # [22:39] <annevk3> if you're wasting two weeks for that one week (as you mentioned) you might as well lose another hour imo
931. # [22:39] <annevk3> I for one thought the panels were worth listening to
932. # [22:40] <blooberry> eric_carlson: heheh. "passes the smell test" is one of the kindest euphemisms I've heard in quite some time. 8-}
933. # [22:41] <Hixie> eric_carlson: pixelratio came out of feedback from the youtube guys, iirc, apparently there is a lot of misencoded video out there and having a way to fix it would really help such sites
934. # [22:41] <Hixie> eric_carlson: note that it is intentionally done in an obtuse way so as to discourage authors from setting it (e.g. that's why height/width don't override the aspect ratio)
935. # [22:43] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
936. # [22:45] <eric_carlson> Hixie: having width/height only set the canvas size is absolutely the right thing to do.
937. # [22:45] <eric_carlson> Hixie: but aspect ratio is much harder to get right.
938. # [22:45] <Hixie> you'd be surprised how many people beg for width/height to control the aspect ratio
939. # [22:45] <eric_carlson> Hixie: for example, a DV NTSC movie has a Rec.601 pixel aspect ratios (10:11)
940. # [22:46] <eric_carlson> Hixie: but you can't take the 720x480 and multiply by 10:11
941. # [22:46] <eric_carlson> Hixie: you need to crop to clean aperture (CLASP) to 704x480, then multiply by 10:11 and you get the proper 640x480
942. # [22:47] <Hixie> don't think we really want to expose the clean aperture as well
943. # [22:47] <eric_carlson> Hixie: exactly!
944. # [22:47] <Hixie> i mean the main use case here is crappily-encoded videos anyway
945. # [22:47] * Quits: renke2 (n=user@Lf08d.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
946. # [22:48] <Philip`> YouTube has proved that people are perfectly able to put up with 320x240, so we might as well just standardise on that so we don't have to worry about sizes and aspect ratios and all that junk
947. # [22:49] <Hixie> YouTube has shown that people will upload all kinds of anamorphic content without correctly setting the metadata in the files they upload
948. # [22:49] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
949. # [22:49] <Hixie> hence youtube's desire to be able to correct it on the fly later
950. # [22:50] <annevk3> arguably we could have two ints separated by an "x"
951. # [22:51] <annevk3> gives the precision that's not really needed, is already required for <link sizes> and is more compatible with how aspect ratios are usually provided
952. # [22:51] <Philip`> Why does YouTube want to fix anything on the client rather than on the server?
953. # [22:52] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
954. # [22:52] <Philip`> annevk3: I don't think I've ever seen aspect ratios with an 'x' - it's always written like "16:9", as far as I'm aware
955. # [22:52] <annevk3> Philip`, true, if the : is really needed it would be slightly more verbose
956. # [22:53] <KrocCamen> Be wary of copy-paste web-developers too. They'll spoil all your plans.
957. # [22:53] <annevk3> though still doable using mostly the same algorithm as <link sizes>, you'd just have the separator as variable
958. # [22:53] <annevk3> KrocCamen, HTML5 is designed for them :)
959. # [22:53] <KrocCamen> :D
960. # [22:54] <Hixie> Philip`: i believe it's so that they can change things on the fly
961. # [22:55] <Hixie> but if there is pushback on pixelratio, please e-mail the list so that i can point them to the pushback
962. # [22:58] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
963. # [23:00] <nessy> how does YouTube notice the wrong pixel aspect ratio anyway?
964. # [23:00] * Joins: markp_ (n=mark@rrcs-70-63-154-107.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
965. # [23:00] <Hixie> right now they don't
966. # [23:00] * markp_ is now known as pilgrim
967. # [23:00] * pilgrim is now known as mpilgrim
968. # [23:01] <roc> surely there's a great machine learning algorithm for that
969. # [23:01] <nessy> if they don't notice it, how can an attribute fix it?
970. # [23:01] <mpilgrim> hixie: do you object to installing analytics on the whatwg blog?
971. # [23:02] <nessy> are they expecting users to fix it in their embed (uhh video) tags?
972. # [23:02] <KrocCamen> Interesting side note. The CSS @media queries use a slash—16/9.
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975. # [23:03] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@lal69-1-82-67-11-148.fbx.proxad.net) (Client Quit)
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977. # [23:04] <Hixie> mpilgrim: go ahead
978. # [23:06] <gsnedders> mpilgrim: Some of the Atom Autodiscovery tests are broken
979. # [23:06] <mpilgrim> really?
980. # [23:06] <mpilgrim> which ones?
981. # [23:06] * gsnedders checks
982. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Some on remote domain
983. # [23:07] <annevk3> Hixie, why not let <video> be like <img> for .height/.width?
984. # [23:07] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
985. # [23:08] <gsnedders> mpilgrim: 47–50
986. # [23:08] <Hixie> annevk3: i don't really care either way, feel free to send feedback on it
987. # [23:08] <gsnedders> mpilgrim: They fail on both my impl. and your impl, and it really does appear to be broken looking at it
988. # [23:09] <annevk3> I guess I don't either, it just seems that the string behavior is less desirable
989. # [23:10] <Hixie> i just changed it to be consistent with the things it was already consistent with
990. # [23:10] <Hixie> i have no opinion
991. # [23:11] <eric_carlson> annevk3: what do you mean by "be like <img> for .height/.width"?
992. # [23:11] <annevk3> eric_carlson, see http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2332&to=2333
993. # [23:12] <eric_carlson> annevk3: ah, thanks
994. # [23:19] <mpilgrim> hixie: i don't have access to the design section of blog.whatwg.org
995. # [23:19] <mpilgrim> perhaps lachy could give me access?
996. # [23:20] <Hixie> lachy is your man, yes
997. # [23:20] <mpilgrim> gsnedders: i'll try to look into it tonight
998. # [23:20] <annevk3> do you need admin access?
999. # [23:20] <annevk3> or something else?
1000. # [23:20] <gsnedders> mpilgrim: Much thanks
1001. # [23:20] <mpilgrim> i need access to the design section so i can change the template to include the tracking code
1002. # [23:21] <mpilgrim> i don't know much about the different levels of wordpress privileges
1003. # [23:21] <mpilgrim> but i need more than i have right now :)
1004. # [23:21] <annevk3> you're an admin now
1005. # [23:21] <annevk3> feel free to abuse your new power
1006. # [23:21] <annevk3> oh, wait!
1007. # [23:22] <mpilgrim> mwahahahaha
1008. # [23:22] <mpilgrim> that did it, thanks
1009. # [23:22] <Hixie> jesus christ, i got about 50 e-mails on video overnight
1010. # [23:26] <annevk3> seems that "issues" have gained some ground again http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html
1011. # [23:26] <annevk3> guess that was mostly due to WF2
1012. # [23:27] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.52) (Remote closed the connection)
1013. # [23:27] <Hixie> the uptick was when i took the huge mess of notes at the bottom of the html5 spec as well as the list of notes at the bottom of the wf2 spec and merged them into one clean list of notes with XXX markers for each issue
1014. # [23:28] <annevk3> yeah, I meant e-mail issues though
1015. # [23:28] <annevk3> the green line
1016. # [23:29] <Hixie> oh
1017. # [23:29] <Hixie> yeah
1018. # [23:29] <Hixie> six weeks without replying to mail will do that
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1022. # [23:32] <annevk3> sigh
1023. # [23:32] <annevk3> http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ajaxian/~3/421961005/fancyupload-for-flash-10
1024. # [23:32] <annevk3> we need HTMLInputElement.fileList and XHR.send(FileList) soonish
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1029. # [23:39] <KrocCamen> Gtg. Have a nice evening all.
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1032. # Session Close: Thu Oct 16 00:00:00 2008

The end :)