/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-01 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Dec 01 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <Lachy> don't go with Trebuchet MS. That's one of the ugliest fonts ever
# [00:00] <BenMillard> Philip`, got any from the Lucida family?
# [00:00] <heycam> or take a look at http://www.webfonts.info/wiki/index.php?title=Fonts_available_for_%40font-face_embedding#Fonts_with_an_Apache_Licence
# [00:00] <heycam> (not necessarily with that fragid tho)
# [00:01] <Philip`> BenMillard: Only Lucida Grande, which looks a bit boring and/or ugly
# [00:01] <Philip`> Lachy: What's wrong with it? :-)
# [00:02] * hsivonen uses Gill Sans on the default Steve background when presenting
# [00:02] <BenMillard> Philip`, how about Georgia? That's a tidy yet attractive (imho) serif which is quite common.
# [00:03] <Philip`> BenMillard: It seems unnatural to use a serif font for a presentation
# [00:04] <gsnedders> Lachy: um, yeah. bug in my code.
# [00:04] <BenMillard> Philip`, you could try browsing around Joe Clark's various websites and stylesheets, see if any fonts he lists float your boat.
# [00:06] <gsnedders> Lachy: yt?
# [00:06] <Lachy> yes
# [00:07] <Lachy> when will you have time to fix the bug?
# [00:08] <heycam> Lachy, do you have any objection to my following the approach (for idl module -> package mapping) in http://www.w3.org/mid/20081129021607.GF16515@arc.mcc.id.au ?
# [00:09] <Lachy> heycam, do you mean the hard coded prefix approach you described?
# [00:10] <heycam> yeah
# [00:10] <heycam> with ability to override it with [Prefix]
# [00:10] <Lachy> so if I understand correctly, then I wouldn't need to make any more changes to selectors api?
# [00:10] <heycam> what's in there at the moment? just: module dom { interface ... } ?
# [00:10] <Lachy> using: module dom {...} is enough?
# [00:10] <heycam> then yes
# [00:10] <heycam> no changes required
# [00:10] <Lachy> ok. That's fine with me
# [00:10] <heycam> :)
# [00:10] <heycam> ok thanks
# [00:12] <gsnedders> Lachy: committed and pushed
# [00:15] <gsnedders> Lachy: http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/archive/85a6d32479c4.tar.bz2
# [00:15] <gsnedders> (or .zip or .tar.gz)
# [00:16] <Lachy> gsnedders, ok, now it's complaining that there is no module named "adjustheadings". So I guess I'm doing something wrong
# [00:18] <Lachy> I have a file named adjustheadings.py in my working directory, which contains this:
# [00:18] <Lachy> import sys
# [00:18] <Lachy> import os
# [00:18] <Lachy> from anolislib.processes import outliner
# [00:18] <Lachy> class adjustheadings:
# [00:18] <Lachy> """Change the heading elements to use the backwards compatible, numbered headings"""
# [00:18] <Lachy> def __init__(self, ElementTree, **kwargs):
# [00:18] <Lachy> self.ElementTree = ElementTree
# [00:18] <Lachy> def adjustheadings(self, ElementTree, **kwargs):
# [00:18] <Lachy> print "test"
# [00:19] <gsnedders> it'll be relative to the installed generator.py, or absolute
# [00:19] <gsnedders> easy solution: put it in an absolute location
# [00:19] <gsnedders> where: python -c "import sys; print sys.path"
# [00:20] <Philip`> Lachy: Maybe run 'PYTHONPATH=. anolis ...'
# [00:21] <gsnedders> Philip`: That won't help. It's relative to the anolislib file.
# [00:21] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
# [00:22] <Lachy> ok, so if I just place a copy in the same directory as anolis is installed in it should work.
# [00:22] <Lachy> I just have to find where that is
# [00:23] <gsnedders> Lachy: No, it's easier if you place it in the normal python location
# [00:23] <gsnedders> Lachy: On OS X? Using default Python install (and not a macport/fink one)?
# [00:23] <Lachy> ok, which location exactly?
# [00:24] <gsnedders> Lachy: /Library/Python/2.5/site-packages
# [00:24] <Lachy> I think its the macports one
# [00:24] <Lachy> how do I tell?
# [00:25] <gsnedders> Lachy: which python
# [00:25] <Lachy> ah, that's where anolislib is installed
# [00:25] <gsnedders> Lachy: Just put it in that folder
# [00:26] <Lachy> do you mean the site-packages folder, or the site-packages/anolislib folder?
# [00:26] <gsnedders> Lachy: site-packages
# [00:26] <Lachy> ok
# [00:28] <gsnedders> Now, I'm really not here till after school tomorrow
# [00:29] <Lachy> it's running without errors now. I'm not sure if it's actually working though
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# [00:29] <gsnedders> is adjustheadings.__init__ being called?
# [00:30] <Lachy> I wonder if it'll work if I place a symlink in there instead, so I can keep the actual file in my working directory
# [00:30] <Lachy> I don't know. what's the easiest way to find out?
# [00:30] <Lachy> is there some way to output debug messages?
# [00:30] <gsnedders> print "magic foo" in that method?
# [00:30] <gsnedders> now, I really really really must go
# [00:31] <gsnedders> Ask Philip`. He's clever. He's got a degree. He's finished this whole school thing. :)
# [00:31] <Lachy> yes
# [00:31] <Lachy> alright, now I just have to learn the ElementTree API
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# [01:06] <Philip`> Don't accuse me of knowing things!
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# [01:08] <Lachy> LOL
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# [05:10] <Hixie> i wonder if this troll is the same one we have: http://www.amazon.com/review/R26708FG38OUJA/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?%5Fencoding=UTF8&cdMsgNo=6&cdPage=1&cdSort=oldest&cdMsgID=MxJUKSB9JZMAUQ#MxJUKSB9JZMAUQ
# [05:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie: no clue, but poking around there, it's interesting to see that Amazon is asserting a trademark on the term "Real Name"
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# [07:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: not being allowed to use width/height on img for dimentionless svg is not nice
# [08:03] <zcorpan> Hixie: consider <img alt=":)" src="http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/svg/smileys/smile" width="15" height="15">
# [08:04] <zcorpan> maybe i could make my smileys have dimentions but dimensionless svg is nice in general, imho
# [08:10] <heycam> is it known that some links from attributes (in the green boxes) to their definitions are broken in the multipage version of the spec?
# [08:11] <heycam> e.g. i notice that clicking on 'width' from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#the-img-element takes me to something unrelated
# [08:12] <zcorpan> heycam: how is it unrelated?
# [08:13] <heycam> oh, i see it isn't unrelated
# [08:13] <heycam> sorry for the noise
# [08:13] <heycam> i just got confused that it didn't go to the closest mentions of width/height from that point
# [08:14] <heycam> and noticed it jumped to the-canvas-element.html
# [08:14] <heycam> (but i guess it is known that those filenames aren't the best)
# [08:15] <heycam> zcorpan, where is the text that would disallow your width/height on dimensionless svg?
# [08:16] <Hixie> zcorpan: img { height: 1em; }
# [08:16] <Hixie> zcorpan: height=15 is wrong.
# [08:17] <zcorpan> heycam: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2473&to=2474
# [08:17] <zcorpan> Hixie: it would look weird when stylesheets are disabled
# [08:17] <heycam> ok
# [08:18] <zcorpan> Hixie: but i digress
# [08:18] <Hixie> zcorpan: and height=15 would look weird when i zoomed the text in, so what?
# [08:18] <heycam> what's the purpose of "The two attributes must be omitted if the resource in question does not have both an intrinsic width and an intrinsic height"?
# [08:18] <zcorpan> Hixie: browsers have full zoom these days :)
# [08:19] <heycam> why not word it in terms of an intrinsic aspect ratio instead?
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# [08:19] <Hixie> heycam: i guess we could, send feedback
# [08:20] * zcorpan goes to add width="15" height="15" to his smileys
# [08:21] <Hixie> zcorpan: that's the wrong solution. it won't work when you change the font size.
# [08:22] <zcorpan> Hixie: i mean in the svg
# [08:22] <Hixie> right, me too
# [08:22] <zcorpan> Hixie: so what's the right solution?
# [08:23] <Hixie> having a viewBox="" coordinate space defined, and giving the dimensions in css
# [08:23] <Hixie> (in the svg and the html respectively)
# [08:23] <Hixie> that was not my most eloquent answer ever
# [08:24] <zcorpan> you could still specify dimensions in css, i just want a reasonable default
# [08:24] <Hixie> i don't know that there's a solution to that. what does '1em' mean in the <svg height=""> attribute? i guess the font-size doesn't inherit through the <img>, huh
# [08:25] <zcorpan> not sure
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# [08:25] <heycam> i think it *should* result in the same as height:1em in the html
# [08:26] <heycam> since width/height on <svg> are hints to the container on how it wants to be sized
# [08:26] <heycam> (not that it's defined properly, but that's the intent i believe)
# [08:26] <zcorpan> in opera it doesn't inherit
# [08:27] <roc> there's no way it inherits
# [08:27] <zcorpan> 1em means 16px
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# [09:11] <zcorpan> BenMillard: "For each token, both algorithms scan the document (via getElementById) for the first element with matching id." -- html5 doesn't scan the document, it scans the table
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# [09:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: the code in Gecko seems to associate legends with forms, but I have no idea if the association is used for anything
# [09:26] <zcorpan> exposing to AT maybe?
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# [09:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: generally i recommend black-box testing your assertions, as apparently the code is quite misleading :-)
# [09:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: I didn't mean to assert that legend behaves as like HTML5 form-associated elements. I meant to assert that it is associated with a form. Wondering about the consequences was about not knowing why.
# [09:41] <hsivonen> I suppose I should ask in a Mozilla newsgroup
# [09:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it might be that it gets exposed to AT that way
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# [09:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: ah
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# [09:48] <gavin> the legend doesn't appear in form.elements, but you can get legend.form
# [09:49] <gavin> because that's how it was defined at http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/idl-definitions.html , apparently
# [09:49] <hsivonen> that explains it. thanks
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# [10:36] <Hixie> huh
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# [10:43] <Hixie> well i guess we can form-associate them easily enough
# [10:45] <hsivonen> now I've got a Minefield build with a leaky HTML5 parser, but there are issues with getting the layout started, so it's no good for demo yet
# [10:53] * hsivonen wonders if Apache 1.3 and 2.0 are still supported, since links to documentation are shown prominently on http://httpd.apache.org/
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# [11:26] * Philip` sees http://code.google.com/p/flot/http://code.google.com/p/flot/ - <canvas> seems quite popular for drawing graphs
# [11:26] <Philip`> Uh
# [11:26] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/p/flot/
# [11:28] <hsivonen> on a related note: do the dojo graphics part use canvas or SVG in Safari?
# [11:28] <hsivonen> s/do/does/
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# [11:51] * hsivonen learns that the W3C has 50 WGs http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/
# [11:51] <roc> Philip`: that is pretty cool
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# [11:58] <Hixie> i thought we established it was 70
# [11:58] <Hixie> or was that members of staff
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# [11:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: are there still WGs that don't operate under the Patent Policy?
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# [11:59] <Hixie> dunno
# [11:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: or does 70 include Incubators and Interest Groups?
# [11:59] <Hixie> maybe
# [12:00] <Hixie> http-wg isn't in that list, but i guess it's covered by ietf patent policy?
# [12:00] * hsivonen wonders how many groups are focusing on things pertaining to "the Web"
# [12:00] <Hixie> 50, apparently
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# [12:05] * hsivonen thinks "humanity connected" is too vague to be a useful definition for "the Web"
# [12:06] <Philip`> The postal system already connects humanity
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# [12:12] <Hixie> so does e-mail
# [12:13] <Hixie> and that's not the Web either
# [12:13] <Hixie> (though it is The Internet)
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# [12:15] <hsivonen> also, the name Semantic Web implicitly concedes that it's a different web (a semantic one)
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# [12:21] * hsivonen signs up to lecture about HTML5 for 1.5 hours in the spring
# [12:24] <Lachy> how do you define what exactly is part of the web and what isn't?
# [12:25] <Lachy> and I thought the Semantic Web was supposed to be a subset of the whole web, not a completely different web
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# [12:26] <hsivonen> Lachy: I think "the Web" is the system what people access using a Web browser
# [12:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: so the Semantic Web could technically become a part of it more easily than e.g. Web Services
# [12:27] <virtuelv> hsivonen: or "whichever services are accessed over http(s) using any software"
# [12:27] <virtuelv> which makes both the «browser web» and the «semantic web» a subset of the web
# [12:27] <hsivonen> virtuelv: I don't think any HTTP service is part of "the Web"
# [12:28] <hsivonen> virtuelv: also, I think files served by FTP can be part of the Web
# [12:29] <Philip`> The web is anything with "www." at the start of its domain name
# [12:29] <hsivonen> I don't believe that from a user perspective, "the Web" has expanded to be more than the browsable Web it was in the beginning
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# [12:30] <Lachy> by that definition, does web based email become part of the web, or do you draw a line between the web interface and the email system?
# [12:30] <Philip`> hsivonen: I thought the user perspective was that "web" and "internet" meant the same thing, so the more useful perspective is that of developers who are providing useful services to users
# [12:31] <hsivonen> Lachy: I think email and Usenet aren't part of the Web, but you can build Web UIs for both
# [12:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: would you consider an SVN repo whose authentication method precludes browsing to be part of "the Web" if it's on HTTP?
# [12:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: is Google Earth part of "the Web" if it requires a special client but downloads stuff over HTTP?
# [12:32] <hsivonen> Is the Flickr API part of the Web even though you need an API-specific client?
# [12:35] <hsivonen> note that I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with not being part of "the Web". I'm just suggesting that it's not very useful to have an all-encompassing definition that doesn't match perception outside the W3C.
# [12:35] <Philip`> hsivonen: I don't have a sufficiently well-developed perspective to have any confident answers to those questions :-)
# [12:40] <hsivonen> I think it's much easier to draw the line between Google Earth and the Web than to draw the line between an intranet and the Web or to draw the line between an operator-specific "mobile web" and the Web
# [12:40] <Hixie> i disagree that ftp is part of the web
# [12:40] <Hixie> similarly, nor is my local filesystem
# [12:41] * Hixie wonders if hsivonen has seen microsoft's virtual earth
# [12:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: I haven't
# [12:41] <Hixie> it's an activex implementation of something like google earth
# [12:41] <Hixie> where's your line now? :-)
# [12:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: so if I follow a link from the unicode.org HTTP site to the definition files on ftp.unicode.org, and your browser Just Works, did you browse off the Web?
# [12:42] <Hixie> yes
# [12:42] <Hixie> imho
# [12:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm inclined to draw the line at browser built-in feature set plus Flash
# [12:43] <Hixie> so my local file system and my mail client are part of the web?
# [12:43] <Hixie> as is my text editor?
# [12:43] <Hixie> and my shell?
# [12:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: no, your local mail client isn't
# [12:44] <Hixie> "browser" is highly ill-defined
# [12:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: coming up for a reason why your local file system isn't but Gmail is is harder
# [12:44] <Hixie> if i load seamonkey and open mozilla mail in a tab, it sure looks like mail in my browser
# [12:44] <hsivonen> Intuitively, your file system isn't but Gmail is
# [12:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's not a browsing context
# [12:45] <Lachy> hsivonen, someone's local file system generally isn't available over the internet, so there seems to be a clear line there
# [12:45] <Hixie> it has a Window object :-)
# [12:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: so how do *you* define the Web?
# [12:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: ok, so should some version of IP be involved?
# [12:45] <Hixie> i engineer my life around not having to answer that question
# [12:45] <Hixie> e.g. by not making mistakes like putting the word "web" into my mission statements
# [12:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: but you ofter say that something isn't part of the Web
# [12:46] <hsivonen> s/ofter/often/
# [12:46] <Hixie> if pressed, i would define the web as anything accessible via HTTP over TCP/IP from the majority of nodes on the internet
# [12:47] <Hixie> and would define the internet as the largest collection of publicly accessible tcp/ip nodes
# [12:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: even if you need a service-specific client like Google Earth?
# [12:47] <Hixie> yes
# [12:47] <hsivonen> interesting
# [12:47] <Hixie> but my definition isn't intended to be useful
# [12:49] <Hixie> it's possible that you might be able to exclude google earth from my definition by defining "accessible via HTTP" as meaning accessible in a manner that doesn't involve any proprietary extensions
# [12:49] <Hixie> though if google earth doesn't use any, then yeah, it's definitely part of the web
# [12:49] <hsivonen> I'm interested in a definition for the reason why I tried to define the Web somewhat unsuccessfully on a panel at TPAC
# [12:50] <Hixie> which is?
# [12:50] <hsivonen> there are various things that purport to be quasi-normative about efforts that pertain to "the Web" but that clearly are talking about something else
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# [12:51] <hsivonen> e.g. AWWW doesn't read like it's describing "the Web"
# [12:52] <Hixie> can you give an example?
# [12:52] <Hixie> there are things in AWWW that i think are wrong, but i wouldn't have said it was clearly inapplicable to the web
# [12:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#xml-qnames
# [12:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: it has a whole section on XML issues
# [12:53] <Hixie> so? xml is used on the web
# [12:53] <Hixie> quite a lot, though nothing resembling the amount that, say, ms word is used on the web
# [12:54] <Hixie> e.g. Atom is on the Web
# [12:54] <hsivonen> it's used on the Web, but a document that has such a focus on XML and is mostly silent about HTML, JS and CSS doesn't look like a document whose focus is on what I understand the Web to be
# [12:54] <hsivonen> it's more like a document on W3C activities at the time of writing
# [12:55] <Hixie> well don't forget that at the time of writing, html had been declared dead for 6 years
# [12:55] <Hixie> and the people who were involved in its creation are not well-versed in JS or CSS issues
# [12:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: is Word used "on the Web" because it can load stuff over HTTP?
# [12:56] <Hixie> i think you are mistaking a natural bias caused by the environment in which it was written and the knowledge space and opinions of its authors, for an error in the intended scope of the document
# [12:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: is your local drive on the Web if you access it over WebDAV on localhost but no one else is allowed to do that?
# [12:57] <Hixie> Word is used on the Web because people can upload files and download files to and from the web
# [12:57] <Hixie> i would define the web as anything accessible via HTTP over TCP/IP from the majority of nodes on the internet. so no.
# [12:57] <hsivonen> Word files can even contain HTTP hyperlinks
# [12:57] <Hixie> correct
# [12:58] <Hixie> (i would probably clarify my definition of "HTTP" to exclude all extensions to HTTP, not just proprietary ones.)
# [12:58] <Hixie> (thus excluding uPnP, WebDAV, and the like)
# [12:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: should the W3C work on getting a public RF spec for .doc in /TR/ ?
# [12:59] <Hixie> based on what principle?
# [12:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: so are intranets on the Web if they are reachable from anywhere on the Internet but require login?
# [13:00] <Hixie> is the member-only space of the W3C on the Web?
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# [13:01] <Hixie> if you can get to an intranet from a random internet node using nothing but HTTP, then it's an extranet, not an internet.
# [13:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: if Word docs are part of the Web and we need the Web to be openly specified so that client can be implemented
# [13:01] <Hixie> extranet, not intranet, rather
# [13:01] <Hixie> and if it's an extranet, i don't know how to distinguish it from a private section of what is definitely on the web
# [13:01] <Hixie> so i'd say yes
# [13:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: I thought an extranet is open to one's business partners but an intranet to empoyees
# [13:02] <Hixie> clients can already implement all they need to do to handle Word documents, that's just downloading a file
# [13:02] <hsivonen> I think Gmail isn't very different from an extranet
# [13:02] <hsivonen> and the difference between an extranet and an intranet is who has logic credentials
# [13:03] <Hixie> hm, yes, seems my definition of extranet was wrong
# [13:03] <Hixie> anyway. i think the whole discussion is a rathole
# [13:03] <Hixie> just rephrase whatever it is that makes you need a definition for "web" to avoid the concept altogether.
# [13:03] <hsivonen> btw, I think the biggest bug in my definition at TPAC pertained to excluding intranets
# [13:05] <hsivonen> clearly, it's a rathole, but not knowing what the Web is seems to cause a whole bunch of ratholes
# [13:06] <hsivonen> how does one know if a particular activity is leading the Web to its full potential without a definition for the Web?
# [13:07] <hsivonen> I'm still not convinced that HTTP reachability from the largest set of IP nodes is a sufficient criterion, because intuitively, SOAP systems aren't on the Web
# [13:08] <Hixie> the problem is not the lack of definition of the web. the problem is with the mission "leading the Web to its full potential".
# [13:08] <hsivonen> can anything that isn't resource-oriented be *on* the Web?
# [13:08] <Hixie> HTTP only works with resources, so, by my definition, no
# [13:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: so what's the Open Web? :-)
# [13:10] <krijn> Leading the Rathole to Its Full Potential
# [13:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: if you could be the Decider, how would you bound the scope of the W3C activities?
# [13:12] <Hixie> if i was the decider, i'd close the w3c altogether and spin off smaller groups like the whatwg for each core technology, covered by a patent policy from an umbrella group like the open web foundation
# [13:13] <Hixie> the idea of a standards organisation having paid staff and a budget is ridiculous, imho, since it leads to the organisation focusing on what makes money to perpetuate the organisation and keep the people employed, rather than on making the technology better
# [13:13] <hsivonen> I still think that navigability with a browser is a key characteristic of the Web even though saying so leaves the boundaries fuzzy
# [13:13] <Hixie> i think that saying so is flat out wrong
# [13:13] <Hixie> RSS/Atom are a key part of the web
# [13:14] <Hixie> and it just leads to an even bigger problem, namely, defining "browser"
# [13:16] <hsivonen> indeed, defining a browser in general is harder, but the browsers actually define what can be authored are few and well-known
# [13:17] <Hixie> not really
# [13:17] <Hixie> e.g. googlers were using chrome for months before anyone outside google new about it
# [13:18] <hsivonen> at that time, Chrome clearly wasn't setting bounds of possibility to Web authoring
# [13:18] <Hixie> it was for people at google :-)
# [13:19] <hsivonen> perhaps browsers need to be reachable from a large set of nodes, too :-)
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# [13:19] <Hixie> then you need to define browser again
# [13:19] <Dashiva> Walled garden browser :)
# [13:19] <Hixie> so you can determine what the market you're going to be comparing to is
# [13:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: I guess browsers could be defined like SCOTUS defines porn :-)
# [13:21] <Hixie> well then you might as well just define the Web that way
# [13:21] <hsivonen> true
# [13:22] <hsivonen> however, I still think people are in more agreement of recognizing a browser when they see one than in recognizing a part of the Web when they see one
# [13:23] <hsivonen> (The bad thing with going on a panel with short notice is not having time for this kind of review in advance...)
# [13:23] <hsivonen> s/with/on/
# [13:23] <hsivonen> (the latter with)
# [13:33] <Hixie> the panel was a waste of time -- the premise of the panel was flawed
# [13:34] <Hixie> (namely, that there was clear disagreement on whether AWWW should exist, and that that disagreement was on philosophical lines rather than strictly technical liens)
# [13:34] <Hixie> but then, i said that before the panel, that's why i refused to go on it :-)
# [13:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm not philosophically opposed to a document that describes the architecture of the Web if it read like a description of the architecture of the Web
# [13:36] <Hixie> right, so your feedback is just "awww is fine, but could you focus more on [list of topics]"
# [13:36] <Hixie> which isn't something you can have a useful panel about
# [13:36] <Hixie> it's the kind of thing that belongs in simple e-mail
# [13:36] <Hixie> where someone can then just go ahead and do what you ask for
# [13:38] <Philip`> hsivonen: If your use case is that you want to argue against things that talk about the web but ignore HTML/JS/CSS, then you don't need a complete definition of the web, you just need a sufficient fragment of definition that says it includes HTML/JS/CSS and doesn't say anything about what is excluded
# [13:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, practically, I'm not convinced that allocating resources to writing a document that describes the architecture is a priority
# [13:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: I also feel I should exclude e.g. my cactus pot which isn't on the Web
# [13:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: since everyone working on it is a volunteer, that doesn't seem like a problem.
# [13:40] <hsivonen> Philip`: although I agree that in order to make a point, my cactus pot's being on the Web can be undefined
# [13:41] * Philip` suddenly sees a whole new meaning in the phrase "awww isn't that cute", just like that thing with the faces/candlestick
# [13:41] <Hixie> hm, happy mailman mailing list memberships reminder day everyone
# [13:42] <Dashiva> How many did you get?
# [13:42] <Hixie> three so far
# [13:42] <Hixie> and it's only 4:40am here!
# [13:42] <Dashiva> I've only got two
# [13:43] <hsivonen> gotta remember to browse to different URIs for W3C list archives, too
# [13:43] <Hixie> just use /latest
# [13:43] <Dashiva> Yeah, it would be far too easy if the "next message" link actually went to the next month
# [13:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: that's not what my browsers pick up and remember automatically
# [13:43] <Hixie> yeah i hate how they don't support linking threads cross-month
# [13:43] <Hixie> that loses me so much time
# [13:44] <Hixie> especially since i'm always replying years later
# [13:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: damomow.com/portal :-)
# [13:44] <Hixie> according to my script, whatwg-bounces@lists.whatwg.org is the second-most prolific author on the whatwg list. that seems wrong.
# [13:44] * hsivonen tests if domowmow is mobile ok
# [13:44] <Hixie> i wonder why i'm getting that.
# [13:44] <Hixie> works on my ipod
# [13:45] <hsivonen> my phone OS doesn't have any recent browser releases available :-(
# [13:46] <hsivonen> except Mini
# [13:46] <hsivonen> damowmow portal works better on my phone than in IE8 :-)
# [13:46] <Hixie> that's not hard
# [13:46] * Hixie recently totally redesigned the portal's look
# [13:47] <Hixie> i like the new look
# [13:47] <Hixie> especially in safari
# [13:47] <hsivonen> a couple of days ago, Opera.com gave me false hope by telling me that Opera 9.62 for Symbian is available
# [13:47] <hsivonen> I think the opera.com update announcer script is broken
# [13:47] <Hixie> i wish opera would just autoupdate
# [13:47] <Hixie> anyway
# [13:47] <Hixie> bed time
# [13:47] <Hixie> nn
# [13:47] <hsivonen> because they offered me a Windows version when following the link
# [13:48] <hsivonen> nn
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# [13:59] <Dashiva> What? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5822#c16
# [14:01] <Philip`> Dashiva: Spam - see #html-wg ten hours ago
# [14:02] <Dashiva> And still there...
# [14:03] <Philip`> Does Bugzilla make it possible to delete comments?
# [14:06] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I looked for a way that I could delete it myself, but couldn't find any
# [14:06] <zcorpan> let's hope bugzilla doesn't get the same amount of spam as the forums...
# [14:06] <zcorpan> back when it was spammed i.e.
# [14:06] <MikeSmith> I've got some level of admin perms on it, but apparently not enough to do things like delete users or comments
# [14:07] <Philip`> http://trac.edgewall.org/prefs/pygments - the HTML5 doctype seems to be growing in popularity
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# [14:32] <Philip`> BenMillard: If you're reading logs: s/thier/their/ in your comparison document
# [14:36] <Lachy> I thought the smart headers algorithm interpreted <td><b>...</b></td> and <td><strong>...</strong></td> as being equivalent to <th>
# [14:37] <Lachy> at least, that's the impression I got from jgraham's table inspector UI
# [14:38] <Lachy> hmm, testing it shows that it doesn't. Only the Experimental option uses that logic. jgraham why is that?
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# [14:58] <jgraham> Lachy: That was jsut bad UI
# [14:59] <Lachy> but why doesn't smart headers use that logic anyway?
# [14:59] <jgraham> Because it doesn't work very well in practice
# [14:59] <Lachy> oh, ok. I thought it was relatively common for people to fake headers using <td><b>
# [15:00] <Lachy> are there more false positives though?
# [15:00] <jgraham> The false positives are an issue (according to Ben)
# [15:00] <jgraham> s/an/a serious/
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# [15:02] <zcorpan> i've seen a number of tables that use <th> as if it were a caption for the table and then <td> for table headers
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# [15:32] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should revise my doctype advice to suggest the HTML5 doctype as sooner than I've previously indicated
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# [15:34] <hsivonen> I think I will be out of gloom scenarios regarding the doctype once IE8 has shipped
# [15:35] <hsivonen> that is, I'd be more inclined to hit the brakes with stuff like <dialog> than with the doctype
# [15:35] * hsivonen wonders if <dialog> is already beyond the point where it could change to mean an app dialog box
# [15:38] <Lachy> hsivonen, it depends of there's any content out there using it
# [15:39] <hsivonen> that's the thing. HTML5 <dialog> has already been hyped
# [15:39] <Lachy> and I suspect there's very little of it, except possibly on sites of early adopters like Sam Ruby
# [15:39] * hsivonen wonders if it's too late to fix the XML 1.1, xml:id and Namespaces usage of DFXP
# [15:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: maybe v.nu should give warnings on features authors shouldn't use yet
# [15:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: warning about stuff that hasn't shipped could be good, yes
# [15:41] <Lachy> hsivonen, do you mean this? http://www.w3.org/TR/ttaf1-dfxp/
# [15:41] <Lachy> I'd never heard of that before but it was the first result for DFXP
# [15:41] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
# [15:42] <Lachy> so I guess you mean "usage in" instead of "usage of"
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# [15:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
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# [15:44] <Dashiva> Doesn't look like the "valid html5" badge has taken hold
# [15:44] <Lachy> Dashiva, that's a good thing
# [15:45] <Lachy> but what are you basing your assertion on?
# [15:45] <Dashiva> Google image search for "valid html5"
# [15:46] <Lachy> the reason is probably that v.nu doesn't issue such badges of honour, like the w3c validator does
# [15:47] <zcorpan> and maybe that the badge that exists has a disclaimer next to it saying you shouldn't use it
# [15:48] <Dashiva> Which badge is that?
# [15:49] <Lachy> where is that badge located?
# [15:49] <Lachy> ah, on simon.html5.org
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# [15:49] <Dashiva> zcorpan: The majority of places don't include the disclaimer :)
# [15:51] <zcorpan> Dashiva: where are the other places?
# [15:52] <Dashiva> http://datadriven.com.au/2007/03/08/the-new-html-working-group/ and http://dashiva.net/
# [15:56] <zcorpan> well if there are only 3 pages to find it then it's not so bad
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# [16:23] <Philip`> The W3C validator doesn't give badges for HTML5 pages - is that an intentional following of the philosophy that badges are bad, or is it just because they haven't got around to building a badge image yet?
# [16:25] <Lachy> it's probably because they haven't made a badge for it yet, or because the spec isn't finalised and the validator is still unstable
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# [16:25] <annevk3> it does issue a warning when you validate HTML5, that it's still experimental
# [16:26] <Philip`> It says "Passed, 1 warning(s)" but the list of potential issues has an "Info" and not a warning
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# [16:42] <gsnedders> Lachy: get what you want working?
# [16:43] <Lachy> gsnedders, no, I can't figure out what type of object is returned by the outliner.
# [16:43] <gsnedders> Lachy: section(list)
# [16:43] <Lachy> wtf?
# [16:43] * gsnedders notes he is now in a good mood and may be kind enough to write what Lachy wants
# [16:44] <gsnedders> Lachy: a subclass of the builtin list object called section
# [16:44] <Lachy> this is what I have, mostly copied from toc.py:
# [16:44] <Lachy> class adjustheadings:
# [16:44] <Lachy> """Change the heading elements to use the backwards compatible, numbered headings"""
# [16:44] <Lachy> def __init__(self, ElementTree, **kwargs):
# [16:44] <Lachy> # Build the outline of the document
# [16:44] <Lachy> outline_creator = outliner.Outliner(ElementTree, **kwargs)
# [16:44] <Lachy> outline = outline_creator.build(**kwargs)
# [16:44] <Lachy> # Get a list of all the top level sections, and their depth (0)
# [16:44] <Lachy> sections = [(section, 0) for section in reversed(outline)]
# [16:44] <gsnedders> Lachy: pastebin!
# [16:44] <Lachy> section, depth = sections.pop()
# [16:44] <Lachy> too much effort
# [16:45] <Lachy> I don't understand what this syntax means: [(section, 0) for section in reversed(outline)]
# [16:46] <gsnedders> Lachy: it creates a list of items (section, 0) for each section in outline, backwards
# [16:47] <Philip`> Lachy: It's like "r = []; for section in reversed(outline): r.append( (section, 0) ); return r"
# [16:47] <Lachy> oh, that makes more sense. why wasn't it just written like that?
# [16:48] * gsnedders shrugs
# [16:48] <gsnedders> too verbose
# [16:48] <Philip`> Because that's three lines, which is horribly verbose when you can write it in one
# [16:49] <Lachy> gsnedders, I think I may have spotted a bug in your code too, from line 66 in toc.py:
# [16:49] <Lachy> while i <= 6:
# [16:49] <Lachy> header_text = section.header.find(u"h" + unicode(i))
# [16:49] <Lachy> if header_text is not None:
# [16:49] <Lachy> break
# [16:49] <gsnedders> Lachy: where's the bug?
# [16:49] <Lachy> that seems to be an infinite loop, since i isn't incremented anywhere?
# [16:50] <gsnedders> and it should be .//h
# [16:52] <Lachy> what's ".//h" mean?
# [16:52] <gsnedders> Lachy: Also, what you want in complicated by the header element
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# [16:53] <gsnedders> also, what do I do with headers within blockquote and tds?
# [16:53] <gsnedders> (i.e., in other sectioning roots)
# [16:54] <Lachy> I think in <blockquote>, the heading would have to be left unchanged
# [16:54] <Lachy> not sure what the problem is with TDs
# [16:54] <gsnedders> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#sectioning-root
# [16:54] * gsnedders blames Hixie
# [16:56] <Lachy> at least for the first version, you could leave them unchanged in <td> too, since for what it's being designed for, headings in <td> is unlikely to occur anyway
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# [16:57] <Lachy> <header> is a bit of a problem too, especially if there are subheadings
# [17:00] <Lachy> for now, I think the important features to handle for the initial version are <section>, <article> and <aside>
# [17:00] <gsnedders> Yeah, that's easy
# [17:00] <Lachy> ok. How long do you expect it to take you to write that much?
# [17:01] <gsnedders> I just did in around a minute :P
# [17:02] <Lachy> oh, ok. that's a lot quicker than it would have taken me, since I find python to be ab extremely confusing language
# [17:02] <Lachy> s/ab/an/
# [17:03] <Lachy> can you send me the code for that then, so I can test it?
# [17:03] <annevk3> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?p=465#465 is spam
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# [17:04] * gsnedders finishes tweeking it
# [17:04] <gsnedders> Lachy: (it was more than just a minute)
# [17:04] <gsnedders> Lachy: http://pastebin.ca/1272410
# [17:04] <gsnedders> The only real problem is it runs the outliner both for that and for the TOC, and the outliner is slow
# [17:05] * jgraham wonders what Lachy is trying to achieve
# [17:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: "Replace numeric headings with the correct numeric headings for their
# [17:06] <gsnedders> depth regardless of sectioning content elements."
# [17:07] <jgraham> I don't understand. I would understand if you said "accounting for sectioning content elements"
# [17:09] <gsnedders> like <section><h1></h1><section><h1></h1></section></section>
# [17:09] <gsnedders> becomes:
# [17:09] <gsnedders> <section><h1></h1><section><h2></h2></section></section>
# [17:09] <Lachy> gsnedders, it doesn't seem to work
# [17:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: That's to be expected. I wrote it quickly.
# [17:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: OK, that makes sense. I don't see how that is irrespective of sectioning content elements though :)
# [17:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: it ignores them when numbering them
# [17:11] <Lachy> I put in in a file called replaceHeadings.py, added it to that python directory, and ran: anolis --enable=replaceHeadings test.src.html test.html
# [17:11] <jgraham> But it uses them to deduce the numbering
# [17:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: yeah, sure
# [17:11] <gsnedders> :P
# [17:12] <Lachy> gsnedders, test.src.html looks like this: http://pastebin.ca/1272420
# [17:14] <gsnedders> hmm, yeah
# [17:16] <gsnedders> Lachy: oh, == and not =
# [17:17] <Lachy> on which line?
# [17:18] <gsnedders> Lachy: http://pastebin.ca/1272422
# [17:18] <gsnedders> Lachy: But http://pastebin.ca/1272424 is cleaner code
# [17:19] <gsnedders> (no unicode(depth + 1), just unicode(depth))
# [17:19] <jgraham> What's a DifferentParentException?
# [17:19] <gsnedders> oh gawd
# [17:20] <gsnedders> copy/paste error
# [17:20] <gsnedders> s/DifferentParentException/TooDeepException/
# [17:21] <gsnedders> final version (hopefully): http://pastebin.ca/1272427
# [17:21] <jgraham> Also I guess section.header.tag[1].isdigit() should be section.header.tag in ("h1", "h2" [...]) but using a set for better performance
# [17:21] <jgraham> So that it works when Hixie introduces the new h1b element
# [17:21] <gsnedders> frozenset ideally
# [17:21] <jgraham> yes, frozenset
# [17:22] * jgraham is on;y guessing that a set will perform better for n=6
# [17:23] <Lachy> gsnedders, will you be including this in the releases as an optional feature, or will I need to keep my own separate copy?
# [17:23] <gsnedders> Lachy: I'll include it with 1.1
# [17:23] <Lachy> ok
# [17:24] <gsnedders> Lachy: I don't want to include it with 1.0, with that so close to shipping
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# [17:24] <Lachy> that'll give me time to learn more python and try and fix bugs in it
# [17:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: for Lachy's test doc it's too small to make any diff :P
# [17:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: 0.000s for both
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# [17:27] * gavin___ is now known as gavin
# [17:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: no diff for HTML 5 either
# [17:28] <Lachy> gsnedders, is there any way to avoid running the outliner twice?
# [17:29] <gsnedders> Lachy: not really
# [17:29] <Lachy> could you somehow cache the outline and return that for subsequent calls?
# [17:29] <gsnedders> Lachy: Yeah, I'll do that for 1.1
# [17:29] <Lachy> ok
# [17:29] <gsnedders> Lachy: That's part of the reason why I don't want to ship this in 1.0
# [17:30] <gsnedders> it's the third most expensive method on HTML 5 of all of Anolis
# [17:30] <jgraham> gsnedders: The frozenset version is about 1x10^-7 seconds faster
# [17:31] <jgraham> (per loop)
# [17:31] <gsnedders> jgraham: with what uncertainty?
# [17:31] <jgraham> Dunno
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# [17:32] * gsnedders expects the uncertainty is so big that the result is more or less irrelevant
# [17:33] <Lachy> gsnedders, for 1.1, can you make it possible for anolis to read directly from standard input rather than requiring an input file, so that I can maintain a collection of source files and run: cat section1.html section2.html ... | anolis output.html
# [17:34] <Lachy> otherwise, I need to write to a temporary file first
# [17:34] <jgraham> gsnedders: Dunno. It seemed to be about 5x10^-8 but I only ran it twice
# [17:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: That's still 50% uncertainty, which isn't very certain at all
# [17:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: But still quicker all the time, interestingly
# [17:35] * gsnedders shrugs
# [17:35] <gsnedders> Lachy: Yeah, I've been thinking about that too
# [17:36] <gsnedders> Lachy: The question is how I tell apart the first argument
# [17:36] <Lachy> jgraham, what are you using to measure the execution time down to a milliionth of a second?
# [17:36] <Lachy> gsnedders, use a command line parameter that means read from standard input
# [17:37] <gsnedders> Lachy: yeah, that's probably simplest
# [17:37] * gsnedders motions towards http://bugs.gsnedders.com/projects/show/anolis
# [17:38] <Lachy> and also add one to allow it to be output directly to standard output too
# [17:38] * Lachy will flood that with feature requests later
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# [17:59] * Philip` finds Google SearchWiki to be actually useful for once
# [17:59] <Philip`> since it lets me delete the really annoying search results on faqs.org for RFCs, since it's HTML and an ugly font and I just want the IETF text versions
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# [18:38] <gsnedders> Lachy: Fixed the infinite loop
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# [22:03] <yecril71> Images are similar to embedded media only if they are also embedded.
# [22:03] <yecril71> Images from IMG tags are not logically similar to embedded media.
# [22:04] <yecril71> Their behaviour with respect to aspect ratio can be different.
# [22:04] <gsnedders> is there any way to turn off section numbering for all sections in a document in LaTeX?
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# [22:06] <yecril71> Sure, you just have to redefine a hidden macro with 5 @�s in the name :-)
# [22:06] <gsnedders> ah, \setcounter{secnumdepth}{0}
# [22:06] <gsnedders> :P
# [22:08] <Philip`> gsnedders: Edit menu, Find "\section", Replace "\section*", I think
# [22:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: That doesn't work for me.
# [22:09] <Philip`> Oh
# [22:09] <gsnedders> Philip`: The section occurs in a file \input{}'d into two documents, and only one of them doesn't want numbering
# [22:10] <Philip`> gsnedders: Write a Makefile that duplicates the file and calls sed on one copy
# [22:10] <gsnedders> Philip`: No.
# [22:10] <gsnedders> :)
# [22:10] <gsnedders> \setcounter{secnumdepth}{0} works fine
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# [22:54] * Hixie gives dmitry a link to http://www.google.com/sponsoredlinks?q=programmers
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# [22:56] <Dashiva> He could hire one of those teams that offered to build an application solving the halting problem
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# [23:10] <Lachy> Hixie, why would you bother responding to Dmitry at all?
# [23:10] <Hixie> politness
# [23:10] <roc> SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET IS WRONG
# [23:12] <yecril71> That shows one result: EEPROM / Flash Programmer.
# [23:14] <Hixie> hm, there's a lot of results herein the US
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# [23:14] <Dashiva> I get lots in Norway too
# [23:14] <yecril71> Not stretching is not a use case for IMG, right.
# [23:16] <yecril71> That is why IMG-loaded images are stretched.
# [23:16] <Lachy> Dashiva, all my results seem to be US sites. Does google redirect you to google.no?
# [23:16] * Lachy hates when Google does that
# [23:16] <Dashiva> No, I've set it to not redirect
# [23:17] <Dashiva> But you can go to .no and it'll give lots of .no answers :)
# [23:17] <Lachy> and its especially annoying since my google cookie seems to expire frequently and I keep getting redirected back to google.no
# [23:17] <Dashiva> That's a feature
# [23:17] <Lachy> I only got one result from the google.no
# [23:17] <Dashiva> There was lots of anger when google had cookies that lasted to 2038 :)
# [23:18] <Dashiva> http://www.google.no/sponsoredlinks?q=programmerere&btnG=S%C3%B8k+i+sponsede+koblinger
# [23:18] <Lachy> oh, yeah, the expiring cookie is ok for that reason. But the fact that google redirects is a bug
# [23:18] <yecril71> I think the keyword should be in Norse.
# [23:18] <Dashiva> We stopped speaking Norse a few centuries ago, alas
# [23:18] <Lachy> Google should provide a way to respect Accept-Language headers.
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# [23:19] <Lachy> I wonder if it would work if I set Accept-Language: en-au,en,no;q=0
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# [23:19] <svl> Lachy: google _does_ respect accept-language. For all languages except for en-* :(
# [23:20] <Lachy> aargh!
# [23:20] <Lachy> that's so damn annoying!
# [23:20] <svl> Yeah. I hate, hate, hate it.
# [23:20] <Dashiva> I'm already sending en,nb-NO;q=0.9,nb;q=0.8,no-NO;q=0.7,no;q=0.6
# [23:20] <Lachy> then we need a way to tell google that i really mean I only speak english
# [23:20] <Lachy> what's nb-NO?
# [23:20] <svl> Frequently tried to contact them to at least honor en-au, en-nz, en-ca e.a. which won't be set by default anywhere. but no.... :(
# [23:20] <Dashiva> bokmål
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# [23:23] <Dashiva> How's your Norwegian coming along, Lachy?
# [23:24] <Lachy> jeg forstår ikke norsk, men jeg snakker bare litt
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# [23:25] <jcranmer> translation for those of us not acquainted with Nordic languages?
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# [23:25] <Lachy> I can read a few words, and understand spoken words like polse and kvittering
# [23:25] <Dashiva> "I don't understand norwegian, but I only speak a little" (bad wording included)
# [23:25] <Lachy> *pølse
# [23:26] <Lachy> Dashiva, what's the correct way to phrase that in norwegian?
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# [23:26] <jcranmer> I guess Nordic languages aren't big on capitalizing proper nouns/adjectives, are they?
# [23:26] <Dashiva> What exactly did you want to say?
# [23:26] <Dashiva> jcranmer: proper nouns, yes
# [23:26] <Lachy> that I don't understand it, but I can say a few words
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# [23:26] <Dashiva> "men jeg kan litt/kan noen ord"
# [23:27] <jcranmer> I'd love to learn a Nordic language someday, but I suppose I should work on other languages in my list
# [23:27] <Dashiva> Although "forstår ikke" is a fairly strong way of not understanding
# [23:27] <Lachy> is there another way?
# [23:27] <Dashiva> "snakker ikke" might fit better
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# [23:28] <Dashiva> "Jeg snakker ikke norsk, men jeg forstår en del ord og uttrykk" perhaps
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# [23:29] <Lachy> ok, that sort of works
# [23:29] <Lachy> it's weird that google translate translates "norsk" into "English" though
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# [23:30] <Dashiva> That is weird
# [23:31] <Lachy> is "Jeg kanne har cheezburger" the correct translation for "I can has cheezburger"?
# [23:31] <jcranmer> I'll use the only foreign lang I know: "Je ne comprends pas <insert language here>, mais je peux <insert correct direct object pronoun here> parler un peu."
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# [23:31] <Dashiva> "kan har"
# [23:32] <Lachy> jcranmer, is that French?
# [23:32] <Dashiva> (kanne isn't a valid conjugation in any case)
# [23:33] <jcranmer> yep
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# [23:34] <BenMillard> zcorpan, I could make that text less specific. How about: "Search for a header cell with matching id in that table." (re: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081201#l-162)
# [23:34] <Dashiva> Although the have duality own/receive isn't present in Norwegian 'ha'
# [23:34] <gsnedders> jcranmer: I always think comprendre is spelt wrong :\
# [23:35] <BenMillard> zcorpan, or rather "For each token, search for a header cell with matching <code>id</code> in that table."
# [23:35] <jcranmer> surprendre looks wrong to me until I look at the past participle... surpris
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# [23:49] <BenMillard> Philip`, 4 instances of "their" changed to "thier". (re: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081201#l-422)
# [23:49] <BenMillard> (uploading)
# [23:49] <Lachy> BenMillard, I hope you meant "thier" changed to "their" :-)
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# [23:52] <Lachy> BenMillard, re the table header sniffing <td><b> discussion earlier, were there really a lot of cases where that resulted in false positives?
# [23:54] <Lachy> and would there be no way to distinguish them. e.g. by only detecting them in the first row or column?
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# Session Close: Tue Dec 02 00:00:00 2008

The end :)