/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-01-29 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 29 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <annevk> .
  4. # [00:03] <Hixie> %
  5. # [00:09] * Quits: weinig|meeting (n=weinig@17.244.17.63)
  6. # [00:11] <Philip`> ※
  7. # [00:11] <hober> @
  8. # [00:11] <xydyx> ♥
  9. # [00:12] <Philip`> hober: You broke the exponential growth of the dots :-(
  10. # [00:12] <Hixie> it didn't take many steps to get out of ASCII
  11. # [00:13] <Hixie> i was tempted to do it myself but i've had bad luck pasting non-ASCII into Terminal -> screen -> irssi
  12. # [00:14] <Philip`> I find it works fine once I've set LANG to be something with utf8
  13. # [00:14] <Philip`> (in the environment into which screen is opened, and also in the environment into which irssi is opened)
  14. # [00:14] <Hixie> ※
  15. # [00:14] <Hixie> i guess it works ok
  16. # [00:14] <Hixie> ※
  17. # [00:15] <Philip`> It'll be nice in the future when we can always take Unicode support for granted
  18. # [00:16] <Hixie> most people already can
  19. # [00:16] <Hixie> it's only in the legacy guts like the command line that we have issues really
  20. # [00:17] <smedero> http://www.google.com/search?rls=en-us&q=%E2%98%83&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
  21. # [00:17] <smedero> that always bums me out
  22. # [00:18] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@csvas05.leeds.ac.uk) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  23. # [00:18] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-236.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk)
  24. # [00:21] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@216.239.45.19)
  25. # [00:22] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-9919bce0823f050f)
  26. # [00:23] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-7d2f2243b2c2976f)
  27. # [00:23] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.17.63)
  28. # [00:24] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-7d2f2243b2c2976f) (Remote closed the connection)
  29. # [00:27] * Joins: dimich__ (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  30. # [00:27] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-dd9e6d6db75b5c72)
  31. # [00:28] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  32. # [00:29] <Philip`> smedero: That's quite impressive - the fairly plain but armed snowman in the search box has turned into an armless but snow-surrounded snowman further down the page
  33. # [00:30] <Lachy> hey, Hixie, I added a scope and audience statment to the authoring guide. Do you think this accurately covers who it's for? http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#scope
  34. # [00:30] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  35. # [00:31] <Lachy> oops, I should either finish or remove that last sentence of the audience section
  36. # [00:31] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  37. # [00:33] <Hixie> seems fine except that last sentence
  38. # [00:34] <Lachy> I'll remove it cause I can't think of a useful way to finish it
  39. # [00:37] * Joins: webben (n=webben@82.153.142.225)
  40. # [00:41] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  41. # [00:42] * Quits: dimich_ (n=dimich@72.14.227.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  42. # [00:43] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  43. # [00:43] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  44. # [00:44] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  45. # [00:44] * Lachy attempts to coax some real use cases for adding namespace support to selectors api. Not having much luck.
  46. # [00:48] * Quits: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  47. # [00:49] * Quits: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.22.36) (Remote closed the connection)
  48. # [00:56] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  49. # [00:56] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-40-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  50. # [00:57] <rubys> namespace as in xml?
  51. # [01:01] <Lachy> rubys, yes. The ability to do document.querySelector("svg|a", namespaceResolver);
  52. # [01:03] <Lachy> so far, my assessment is that the majority of use cases can be done without worrying about namespaces, since most localName's don't clash between HTML, SVG and MathML, and where they do, there are trivial workarounds
  53. # [01:42] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  54. # [01:48] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  55. # [01:50] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  56. # [01:53] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  57. # [01:58] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-f2feab73e5375d17)
  58. # [02:00] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  59. # [02:01] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  60. # [02:08] * Quits: dimich__ (n=dimich@72.14.227.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  61. # [02:12] * Joins: dimich_ (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  62. # [02:13] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@216.239.45.19) ("Leaving.")
  63. # [02:16] * Quits: webben (n=webben@82.153.142.225) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  64. # [02:27] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  65. # [02:39] * Quits: dimich_ (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  66. # [02:39] * Joins: dimich_ (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  67. # [02:48] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-170-73.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  68. # [03:01] * Quits: kingryan (n=kingryan@adsl-99-27-42-97.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  69. # [03:17] <Hixie> man my next checkin is gonna ruffle some feathers
  70. # [03:17] <Lachy> why?
  71. # [03:17] <Hixie> i'm defining the term "xml parser"
  72. # [03:18] <Lachy> ok
  73. # [03:18] <Hixie> the text itself isn't controversial (i hope)
  74. # [03:18] <Hixie> but apparently none of the people i'm worried about complaining actually read the text
  75. # [03:22] <Lachy> I'm trying to find the definition in the spec /current-work/source, but I can't find it.
  76. # [03:22] <Lachy> I'll just wait till you check it in
  77. # [03:24] <Hixie> check /current-work/working-copy
  78. # [03:24] <Hixie> i no longer edit /source live, i edit /working-copy live instead, so that i can resume editing before the update script has finished syncing everything and so that i can them check in the previous changes without the new edits going in as well
  79. # [03:28] <Lachy> oh, so is /source copied from /working-copy and then the scripts use that copy?
  80. # [03:29] <Hixie> yeah
  81. # [03:30] <Lachy> oh, I just saw the note here is missing the ')' from the end. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dynamic-markup-insertion
  82. # [03:30] <Hixie> thx
  83. # [03:31] <Lachy> "An XML parser, for the purposes of this specification, is a construct that follows the rules given in the XML specification to map a string of bytes or characters into a Document object." - doesn't seem controversial
  84. # [03:31] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.17.63)
  85. # [03:32] <Hixie> like i said, the text is fine :-)
  86. # [03:33] <Lachy> well, I guess it is controversial for those who believe an XML parser should be completely independent of the DOM and that it may not output a Document object
  87. # [03:36] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  88. # [03:36] <Hixie> it'll be controversial because "it defines the term xml parser!!! aaah!!!"
  89. # [03:39] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64) ("Leaving")
  90. # [03:40] <Lachy> Hixie, will attributes like name be defined, or at least listed, in the Obsolete Features section? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#obsolete-features
  91. # [03:40] <Lachy> I guess, since it defines some such attributes already
  92. # [03:41] <Lachy> it might be worth pointing that out to Roy
  93. # [03:41] <Hixie> i wasn't planning on making any author-facing statements in that section
  94. # [03:41] <Lachy> oh, ok
  95. # [03:41] <Hixie> i was going to keep it at the bare minimum of implementation requirements
  96. # [03:41] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  97. # [03:42] <Lachy> hmm, I suppose providing authoring information about obsolete features doesn't really benefit anyone
  98. # [03:45] <Lachy> I think it's bed time. Tomorrow, I want to try and make some significant progress on the authoring guide
  99. # [03:45] <Hixie> cool
  100. # [03:45] <Lachy> and finish the blog entry I started tonight about Mike's markup spec
  101. # [03:45] <Lachy> nn
  102. # [03:53] <Lachy> Hixie, wtf happened here? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
  103. # [03:53] <Hixie> the spec is in a poor state right now
  104. # [03:55] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.17.63)
  105. # [03:58] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  106. # [04:18] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  107. # [04:21] <Hixie> ok
  108. # [04:22] <Hixie> if anyone wants to review http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/index-diff while i'm at dinner, that'd be great :-D
  109. # [04:22] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  110. # [04:31] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  111. # [04:34] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  112. # [04:35] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-69-107-13-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  113. # [04:35] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1)
  114. # [04:49] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  115. # [04:52] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-69-107-13-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  116. # [04:53] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  117. # [04:55] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  118. # [05:02] * Quits: dimich_ (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  119. # [05:24] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230)
  120. # [05:24] * Quits: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  121. # [05:30] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.17.63)
  122. # [05:50] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  123. # [05:51] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  124. # [05:53] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-170-73.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  125. # [05:53] * Joins: sverrej_ (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230)
  126. # [05:53] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  127. # [06:08] * Joins: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@u-211130159043.hotspot.ne.jp)
  128. # [06:09] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  129. # [06:11] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
  130. # [06:15] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  131. # [06:36] * Joins: ginger (n=nessy@124-168-147-235.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  132. # [06:45] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-148-77.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  133. # [06:47] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  134. # [06:57] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  135. # [07:15] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-76-102-160-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  136. # [07:16] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  137. # [07:27] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.41)
  138. # [07:34] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  139. # [07:40] * Quits: pergj (n=pergj@cm-84.208.140.163.getinternet.no) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  140. # [07:42] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  141. # [07:46] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  142. # [07:47] * Quits: sverrej_ (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  143. # [07:47] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@u-211130159043.hotspot.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  144. # [07:48] * Joins: sverrej_ (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230)
  145. # [07:49] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  146. # [07:57] * Joins: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  147. # [08:02] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe you should move the doctype stuff in xml from conformance requirements to writing xhtml documents?
  148. # [08:02] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  149. # [08:06] <Hixie> hm, not a bad idea
  150. # [08:13] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  151. # [08:13] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  152. # [08:39] * Joins: hallvors (n=hallvord@cm-84.208.78.204.getinternet.no)
  153. # [08:47] * dave_levin_ is now known as dave_levin
  154. # [08:53] * Joins: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no)
  155. # [08:53] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  156. # [09:04] * maikmerten is now known as maik|meeting
  157. # [09:21] * Quits: hallvors (n=hallvord@cm-84.208.78.204.getinternet.no)
  158. # [09:32] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-42-25.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  159. # [09:39] * maik|meeting is now known as maikmerten
  160. # [09:45] * Joins: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  161. # [09:46] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-203-140.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  162. # [09:58] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  163. # [09:58] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  164. # [09:58] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.108.77.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  165. # [10:03] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  166. # [10:03] * Quits: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.41)
  167. # [10:04] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  168. # [10:04] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-168-90.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  169. # [10:08] * Joins: pauld_ (n=pauld@92.40.169.177.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  170. # [10:12] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  171. # [10:12] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  172. # [10:13] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.41)
  173. # [10:14] * Joins: pauld__ (n=pauld@92.40.136.215.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  174. # [10:21] * Joins: harig (i=opera@121.245.55.129)
  175. # [10:23] * Joins: pauld___ (n=pauld@92.40.225.103.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  176. # [10:23] <zcorpan> hey wait a minute. onclick etc listen for any 'click' events, not only MouseEvents?
  177. # [10:24] <zcorpan> i.e. if i dispatch a 'click' event with the wrong type, onclick will catch it
  178. # [10:25] <zcorpan> geez that makes testing a whole lot easier
  179. # [10:26] <zcorpan> i had started to set up a mapping between event names and their interface and a mapping between interfaces and the appropriate initFooEvent method
  180. # [10:26] <zcorpan> now i can drop both tables and just do createEvent('Event') and then initEvent(e, true, true, window)
  181. # [10:27] <zcorpan> wish someone told me this before
  182. # [10:29] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.108.77.sub.mbb.three.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  183. # [10:29] <zcorpan> i wonder why dom events have so much indirection
  184. # [10:30] <zcorpan> (not to mention that there's initFooEventNS with another level of indirection)
  185. # [10:30] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@213.52.39.8)
  186. # [10:32] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-168-90.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  187. # [10:34] * Quits: pauld_ (n=pauld@92.40.169.177.sub.mbb.three.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  188. # [10:34] <zcorpan> Hixie: might be worth adding a note to the spec saying that the event handler attributes ignore the event's interface
  189. # [10:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: actually the spec is wrong, it says "Must be invoked whenever an abort event is targeted at or bubbles through the element or object." where "abort" is linked to a definition that states a specific interface
  190. # [10:36] <zcorpan> actually i'll just file a bug
  191. # [10:38] * Joins: xydyx (n=hdh@118.71.77.236)
  192. # [10:44] * Quits: pauld___ (n=pauld@92.40.225.103.sub.mbb.three.co.uk) (Connection timed out)
  193. # [10:44] <hsivonen> It seems like <dialog> is more trouble than it's worth. We could say dialog is abbreviated <dl> instead.
  194. # [10:45] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  195. # [10:46] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-203-140.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  196. # [10:46] * Quits: pauld__ (n=pauld@92.40.136.215.sub.mbb.three.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  197. # [10:54] * Quits: sverrej_ (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230) ("Ex-Chat")
  198. # [10:55] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  199. # [10:57] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  200. # [11:07] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230)
  201. # [11:07] <annevk> it's interesting how Leif goes from not optimized for, to unfit, without explaining why
  202. # [11:10] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  203. # [11:10] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  204. # [11:11] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
  205. # [11:11] <annevk> hsivonen, if we want to use it for chat logs as well having a different container would help
  206. # [11:12] <annevk> hsivonen, so you can allow other elements in it as well
  207. # [11:13] <zcorpan> annevk: other elements between dt and dd aren't compatible with ie's parser
  208. # [11:18] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc4-flee1-0-0-cust339.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  209. # [11:18] <annevk> you'd have to require closing tags
  210. # [11:18] <annevk> oh, I guess I see what you mean
  211. # [11:18] <annevk> well, hopefully IE gets a better parser in due course
  212. # [11:20] <BenMillard> it seems people just use <p> and put the speaker name somewhere near the start on the web
  213. # [11:20] <BenMillard> so I guess that's all users need
  214. # [11:20] * Joins: bzed_ (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  215. # [11:21] <BenMillard> some examples: http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2008/dialogue
  216. # [11:21] <BenMillard> oh, some use <dl> instead
  217. # [11:22] <BenMillard> uses <dl>, then stops the <dl> and uses <h4> to change scene: http://greenmethods.com/site/weblog/2001/01/whos-ojectionable/
  218. # [11:23] <BenMillard> then starts a new <dl> after the <h4> scene change
  219. # [11:23] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  220. # [11:24] <BenMillard> there is no container around the dl+h4+dl sequence, so maybe stopping and starting <dl> works fine
  221. # [11:26] <BenMillard> <dl class="dialog"> with <p> and suchlike inside each <dd>: http://xhtml.com/en/web-standards/conversation-with-opera/
  222. # [11:30] <BenMillard> zcorpan, the IRC demos now use #dfd as you suggested: http://projectcerbera.com/!dev/irc-logs/day-telecon
  223. # [11:30] <BenMillard> zcorpan, I got the chance to test it on a range of TFTs and a couple of laptops. It's much more visible on them.
  224. # [11:31] <BenMillard> zcorpan, I find it kinda funny that this huge, hot CRT from 2001 has better colouration than "high-tech" flat screens from 2008. :)
  225. # [11:35] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  226. # [11:36] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Read error: 111 (Connection refused))
  227. # [11:36] * bzed_ is now known as bzed
  228. # [11:37] <zcorpan> BenMillard: maybe you have a pretty low contrast set?
  229. # [11:37] <zcorpan> er
  230. # [11:37] <zcorpan> low brightness
  231. # [11:39] <BenMillard> zcorpan, the TFTs I tested were factory settings
  232. # [11:40] <BenMillard> zcorpan, just played around with contrast setting on this CRT, still great colouration
  233. # [11:40] <BenMillard> TFTs always look grubby compared to this...and yes I did make sure they weren't covered in dust first :P
  234. # [11:40] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  235. # [11:40] * Joins: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  236. # [11:41] <BenMillard> the laptops were LCDs and the most modern one was better than the TFTs but still not as good as this CRT
  237. # [11:41] * BenMillard hugs his screen.
  238. # [11:42] <BenMillard> zcorpan, brightness setting on this CRT is factory default. I see how lowering it makes brighter colours more distinct, though
  239. # [11:48] <jgraham> In general flat panel screens are known to have poorer colour reproduction than CRTs. Although it depends significantly on the panel tech. If you are prepared to pay say $1000 for a flat panel you can get one with good enough colour reproduction for professional print publication
  240. # [11:49] <BenMillard> jgraham, nice to know I'm not going mad, thanks. 8)
  241. # [11:49] <jgraham> Panels costing like 100 GBP use a technology that has good refresh rate (nice for games) but lousy colours
  242. # [11:50] <takkaria> apple displays also tend to have a wider colour gamut than most other TFTs
  243. # [11:50] <jgraham> See http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1039222 for example
  244. # [11:57] <BenMillard> jgraham, enlightening. :)
  245. # [12:03] <Philip`> (Hmm, my new 'grep' takes about one minutes for 130K pages, rather than >10 minutes for the old one)
  246. # [12:03] <Philip`> (I probably ought to multithread it so it's 4x faster, which would be nice)
  247. # [12:09] * Joins: doublec (n=Chris_Do@124.6.219.156)
  248. # [12:10] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc4-flee1-0-0-cust339.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  249. # [12:13] <jgraham> Philip`: Is it CPU limited?
  250. # [12:26] <Philip`> jgraham: Yes
  251. # [12:26] <Philip`> jgraham: (It used to be disk limited, but now there's fewer files and they're compressed so it should all be cached in RAM)
  252. # [12:31] <jgraham> Philip`: Clearly the solution is to rewrite everything in Erlang
  253. # [12:32] <Philip`> jgraham: What advantages would that have over simply adding a ThreadPoolExecutor and a few lines of glue and a synchronized output method? :-)
  254. # [12:40] <jgraham> Philip`: It would have more magic pixie dust.
  255. # [12:40] <Philip`> jgraham: How much more magic pixie dust, as a percentage by mass?
  256. # [12:41] <jgraham> Magic pixie dust has zero mass (and therefore is ruled out as a candidate for dark matter)
  257. # [12:42] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  258. # [12:42] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  259. # [12:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: Gecko ranks kCharsetFromHintPrevDoc higher than kCharsetFromAutoDetection.
  260. # [12:43] <Philip`> jgraham: Magic pixie dust couldn't be a candidate for dark matter anyway, because it glows
  261. # [12:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: so shouldn't HTML5 have that, too, between chardet and the user-set default?
  262. # [12:47] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  263. # [13:00] * Quits: doublec (n=Chris_Do@124.6.219.156) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  264. # [13:01] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-956cd138fdbd4021)
  265. # [13:11] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@81.130.23.37)
  266. # [13:22] * Joins: sicking_ (n=chatzill@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  267. # [13:22] * Joins: gavin___ (n=gavin@people.mozilla.com)
  268. # [13:22] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
  269. # [13:22] * Quits: harig (i=opera@121.245.55.129) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  270. # [13:23] <annevk> wow, never realized that lack of an overview of elements and attributes prevented people from reviewing the specification
  271. # [13:23] <annevk> maybe we should add them then
  272. # [13:34] <zcorpan> annevk: there's an overview at http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements
  273. # [13:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: It's not normative! :-)
  274. # [13:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: an overview in the spec wouldn't be normative, either
  275. # [13:35] * Quits: sicking (n=chatzill@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  276. # [13:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: indeed
  277. # [13:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: more seriously, though, I think your page should be publicized more widely
  278. # [13:36] <zcorpan> some people linked to it a few years ago
  279. # [13:36] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-956cd138fdbd4021) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  280. # [13:37] <karlcow> http://twitter.com/karlpro/status/1158293590
  281. # [13:38] <zcorpan> karlcow: thanks :)
  282. # [13:42] <Lachy> zcorpan, do you have a script that generates that list of elements?
  283. # [13:43] <zcorpan> Lachy: no :(
  284. # [13:44] <Lachy> ok. I could have used it since I think we need an index of elements and attributes for both the spec and authoring guide
  285. # [13:44] <Lachy> but I guess I will have to write my own one day
  286. # [13:45] * Joins: broquaint (i=f57ea083@spc1-brig11-0-0-cust544.asfd.broadband.ntl.com)
  287. # [13:47] <zcorpan> maybe hsivonen or Philip` have something that can be used to generate an index
  288. # [13:48] <hsivonen> I have the thingy that scrapes the spec for element-specific attributes
  289. # [13:50] <zcorpan> Hixie: should we have a dedicated exception for "too few arguments" or "wrong arguments" instead of NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR?
  290. # [13:50] * Quits: broquaint (i=f57ea083@spc1-brig11-0-0-cust544.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) ("leaving")
  291. # [13:51] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  292. # [13:53] <annevk> it should be fairly trivial to write a script since the element definitions are pretty consistent
  293. # [13:53] <annevk> though you might want special code for <input>
  294. # [13:53] <hsivonen> annevk: there are gotchas like the body element appearing twice
  295. # [13:54] <Lachy> I'd need a script that scrapes from the authoring guide, which is structured differently from the spec
  296. # [13:54] <Lachy> and is undergoing a major restructuring right now
  297. # [13:54] * Joins: broquaint (i=c1e2cb87@spc1-brig11-0-0-cust544.asfd.broadband.ntl.com)
  298. # [13:55] <annevk> hsivonen, that one doesn't carry the class
  299. # [13:55] <annevk> i.e. the conforming element definitions carry a class name which can be used to identify them
  300. # [13:55] <hsivonen> annevk: oh. good to know. the observation would have saved me some trouble earlier
  301. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: where does the relative order of last visited charset and frequency analysis come from?
  302. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: as far as I can tell, Gecko seems to have them the other way round
  303. # [14:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: is it intentional that charset inheritance for same-origin iframes isn't specced explicitly?
  304. # [14:11] <Philip`> karlcow: Wow, a Twitter message with a URL that's not using something like TinyURL
  305. # [14:12] <Lachy> Philip`, what twitter message?
  306. # [14:12] * Philip` wonders if anyone is archiving the URL-shortening services' databases, to avoid vast swathes of links all across the web suddenly disappearing when those services shut down
  307. # [14:12] <Lachy> Philip`, I doubt it
  308. # [14:12] <Philip`> Lachy: The one karlcow wrote and linked to
  309. # [14:13] <karlcow> twitter, frienfeed thing is becoming insane, yes I had to click through 4 indirections before going to the page
  310. # [14:14] <annevk> it seems the class name is on the <dl> following the header, by the way
  311. # [14:14] <annevk> however, another difference seems to be is that the second body element header does not have <dfn>
  312. # [14:15] <annevk> the most annoying thing with twitter indirection is that when you click to expand and then click the link you still go to the fricking redirect service
  313. # [14:18] <zcorpan> Philip`: any data on the insertHTML execCommand?
  314. # [14:18] <Philip`> zcorpan: Do you have a regexp for that?
  315. # [14:20] <zcorpan> Philip`: execCommand\s*\(\s*("|')insertHTML ...maybe?
  316. # [14:20] <zcorpan> though the inserthtml part should be case insensitive
  317. # [14:26] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/data/execCommand.txt
  318. # [14:26] * Quits: ginger (n=nessy@124-168-147-235.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  319. # [14:27] <zcorpan> Philip`: interesting
  320. # [14:27] <Philip`> Lots of people using the http://evil.che.lu/2006/9/25/no-more-ie6-background-flicker hack, it seems
  321. # [14:29] <Philip`> (Maybe the more advanced uses of execCommand tend to be hidden in external scripts?)
  322. # [14:30] <zcorpan> Philip`: likely
  323. # [14:32] <annevk> hmm, my extract script gets 96 elements
  324. # [14:32] <zcorpan> annevk: sub/sup?
  325. # [14:33] <annevk> hmm yeah, and mine includes <applet> ;/
  326. # [14:33] <Philip`> Do you cope with h1-h6?
  327. # [14:33] <annevk> me? no
  328. # [14:34] <annevk> it's five lines of Python atm
  329. # [14:34] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements seems to not cope with h1-h6 either
  330. # [14:35] <annevk> what are you implying?
  331. # [14:35] <annevk> oh, those elements
  332. # [14:35] <annevk> duh
  333. # [14:35] <Philip`> Yes :-)
  334. # [14:35] <Philip`> because they're not in the spec as individual elements
  335. # [14:35] <Philip`> so extraction scripts have to be careful to handle them properly
  336. # [14:36] <zcorpan> Philip`: oops.. i thought i had h1-h6
  337. # [14:36] <annevk> I suppose I can add special code for the case where it ends with "elements</h4>\n"
  338. # [14:37] <Philip`> annevk: That seems an unnecessary generalisation - just do the special case "The h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, and h6 elements"
  339. # [14:37] <Philip`> Oh, except for sub and sup
  340. # [14:37] <annevk> right
  341. # [14:38] <annevk> i suppose i'll special case <div> as being the last valid element too
  342. # [14:40] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-73-123.dynamic.amis.net)
  343. # [14:41] <zcorpan> Philip`: fixed, thanks
  344. # [14:42] <annevk> ok, maybe h1-h6, sub and sup need to be special cased
  345. # [14:43] <Lachy> I've published a major restructured version of the authoring guide (temporarily omitting the element reference) http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
  346. # [14:43] <Lachy> This includes a new Overview section describing what the content of each section will be
  347. # [14:48] <Lachy> I'm considering renaming the guide too, since The Web Developer's Guide to HTML 5 is a little long. Possibly something like HTML 5: The Web Developer Reference (or Guide), or HTML 5: Developer's Reference
  348. # [14:49] <Philip`> The former alternative is longer than the current name
  349. # [14:49] <Philip`> The latter seems confusing since "Developer" could mean UA developer rather than web-page developer
  350. # [14:50] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-deefccfbea9ba753)
  351. # [14:51] <Lachy> hmm, yeah. This is hard.
  352. # [14:52] <annevk> HTML 5 for Authors
  353. # [14:52] <Lachy> I need the name to be short, easy to abbreviate (or short enough to not need abbreviation), and convey it's audience as HTML authors or web developers
  354. # [14:52] <Philip`> annevk: That seems confusing because Authors are people who write books, and this isn't for them
  355. # [14:52] <hsivonen> this was also a problem with naming mozilla newsgroups
  356. # [14:53] <hsivonen> who "developers" are, that is
  357. # [14:53] <Philip`> Maybe "HTML 5 for Web Developers"
  358. # [14:53] <zcorpan> http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=594525
  359. # [14:54] <annevk> Philip`, Web Authors then...
  360. # [14:54] <Lachy> does anyone have any feedback about the overview I just wrote? Does what it describes seem like a reasonable structure?
  361. # [14:56] <Lachy> karlcow, gsnedders, ^^
  362. # [14:57] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-deefccfbea9ba753) (Remote closed the connection)
  363. # [14:58] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-06448f080f2e6efa)
  364. # [14:59] <Philip`> Lachy: I can't quite imagine someone who knows nothing about HTML reading through the Introduction and How To Read and Preface sections before reaching the introductory tutorial section that tells them how to write HTML, without them getting bored and giving up before then
  365. # [15:00] <Philip`> (Oh, and the Abstract and Status and TOC)
  366. # [15:01] <Lachy> The Abstract, Status and TOC are required. I'm considering droppin the How To Read section, but right now it's useful for trying to work out how the guide will be marked up.
  367. # [15:01] <Lachy> The Preface will probably merge with the introductory tutorial
  368. # [15:03] <hsivonen> all this charset stuff balloons into a scary amount of code
  369. # [15:03] <hsivonen> just imagine how simple this *could* have been
  370. # [15:04] <karlcow> Lachy: put the how to read section at the end of the document in an appendix and refers to it. aka someone might want to read it once but not necessary over and over again. Powah of hypertext
  371. # [15:04] <Lachy> hsivonen, do you mean if we had developed and standardised on UTF-8 and UTF-16, and never had CRLF from the very beginning?
  372. # [15:05] <Philip`> Lachy: Since they're required, maybe this is an unsuitable format for an introductory tutorial - for people who don't know anything about HTML and want an introductory tutorial, it seems better for them to Google for "html tutorial" and look at http://www.w3schools.com/html/html_intro.asp and immediately get an example and a "Try it yourself" link
  373. # [15:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: even if we'd had multiple encoding with exactly one simple in-file declaration mechanism
  374. # [15:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: but UTF-8-only would of course have been simpler
  375. # [15:05] <karlcow> hmmm maybe Philip` just found the appropriate title
  376. # [15:05] <karlcow> "HTML 5 Tutorial"
  377. # [15:06] <hsivonen> I mean: Gecko needs *16* different charset information source ranks!
  378. # [15:06] <jgraham> Lachy: I think for a non-normative authoring guide the scope section should vanish, the intended audience section should probably vanish, the preface doesn't seem very accurate
  379. # [15:06] <Lachy> karlcow, I don't really want to call the whole thing a Tutorial because that's more like what Dan C is producing
  380. # [15:06] <hsivonen> (15 currently, I'm adding one for HTML5-conformance)
  381. # [15:06] <Philip`> If it had been UTF-8-only, early text-mode web browsers would probably have not bothered implementing that correctly and would just dump the bytes to the terminal, and everyone would write in iso-8859-1 and the plan would fall apart
  382. # [15:06] <Lachy> jgraham, yeah, the preface is still a work in progress. But what specifically is inaccurate?
  383. # [15:07] <jgraham> Specifically I'm not clear that the second paragraph is accurate/useful
  384. # [15:08] <jgraham> The third paragraph is irrelevant
  385. # [15:08] <jgraham> (in that I don't think this document needs to justify its own existance so much)
  386. # [15:08] <Lachy> ah, it was somewhat relevant to the section it was originally in. Now with it being moved around so much, yeah, it has lost its relevance
  387. # [15:09] <zcorpan> Lachy: HTML5 Reference
  388. # [15:09] * karlcow is always surprised how people are harsh in their comments. cf [09:05] <jgraham> The third paragraph is irrelevant
  389. # [15:10] <jgraham> karlcow: Fair enough, I was trying to be brief
  390. # [15:10] <jgraham> But then had to expand anyway so there was no point
  391. # [15:10] <Lachy> maybe I should just merge the scope, audience and overview into a single, more cohesive section
  392. # [15:10] <karlcow> brief can include love ;)
  393. # [15:10] <takkaria> karlcow: harsh or terse?
  394. # [15:10] <karlcow> takkaria: harsh
  395. # [15:11] <Lachy> karlcow, I like receiving harsh comments. It means people are actually thinking about what I'm doing and helping to ensure I don't produce crap
  396. # [15:11] <jgraham> Lachy: I think at this point it is more useful to focus on the content of the document than the ntroductory material. The introductory material can be written at the end and should just say what HTML is and something about what follows
  397. # [15:11] <takkaria> I'm certainly in the habit of being extremely terse when reviewing things, if it's harsh that's a side-effect
  398. # [15:11] <karlcow> Lachy: "I like receiving harsh comments" it has a name ;) the M part of SM
  399. # [15:12] <jgraham> karlcow: This isn't that sort of channel ;)
  400. # [15:12] <Lachy> what's SM?
  401. # [15:12] <karlcow> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadomasochism
  402. # [15:13] <jgraham> karlkow: You were't refferrring to the scientific plotting application SuperMongo
  403. # [15:13] <jgraham> ?!
  404. # [15:13] <karlcow> A new world to explore for Lachy, I think we lost him for a while. To type also in google images ;) if you want more details
  405. # [15:13] <Philip`> Nor to Super Mario?
  406. # [15:16] <Philip`> It'd be interesting to see Google's stats on how many people choose to turn SafeSearch off
  407. # [15:16] <Lachy> I turn it off
  408. # [15:16] <Lachy> I don't like my porn searches being filtered ;-)
  409. # [15:16] <jgraham> Section 1.3.2.2.2 Void Elements, referencing "The XML well formedness requirement" doesn't make much sense since you haven't even explained that XHTML is an XML dialect or what XML is or anything (I think this is a reorganisation artefact)
  410. # [15:17] <Lachy> ok
  411. # [15:17] <karlcow> Lachy it is a good start for refactoring the document
  412. # [15:17] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
  413. # [15:17] <Philip`> Trying to teach HTML and XHTML simultaneously sounds like it's just going to cause confusion
  414. # [15:17] <jgraham> In general it seems hard to deal with XHTML since most people who already understand the difference will think it obvious but most people who don't will skip the introduction
  415. # [15:18] <annevk> hmm, my attribute script fails on <embed>
  416. # [15:18] <jgraham> Although I always think writing things that teach anything well is close to impossible so I don't have the best opinion
  417. # [15:19] <annevk> and I suppose I should keep a list of elements as well besides a dictionary so you can get them in spec order...
  418. # [15:19] <jgraham> 1.3.2.2.1 Attributes - The concept of a boolean attribute and an expanded and minimised form has not been explained
  419. # [15:19] <jgraham> annevk: Ordered dictionary!
  420. # [15:20] <annevk> how do i get one of those?
  421. # [15:20] <Philip`> Use JavaScript
  422. # [15:20] <jgraham> annevk: http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/odict.html
  423. # [15:20] <jgraham> Or write your own
  424. # [15:21] <Philip`> Seems far easier to use a list
  425. # [15:21] * annevk finds http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0372/
  426. # [15:21] * annevk agrees with Philip`
  427. # [15:22] <jgraham> Philip`: Well it depends really; if you have to maintain a list and a dict keeping them in sync is some effort
  428. # [15:22] <annevk> html5lib is actually cited in that pep
  429. # [15:22] <annevk> never knew we were so famous
  430. # [15:23] <Philip`> jgraham: If you're only appending, it's not a problem
  431. # [15:23] <Philip`> particularly if you don't care about asymptotic performance, so you can write "d[k] = v; if k not in l: l.append(k)"
  432. # [15:23] <jgraham> Philip`: If you're only appending it is pretty easy to write your own odict with that code in
  433. # [15:24] <Philip`> It's even easier to not write your own odict :-)
  434. # [15:24] <karlcow> hmmmm "dict -d html5 blockquote" could be handy
  435. # [15:26] <jgraham> Lachy: All the subsections 10 1.3.2.2 seem out of place. You are talking about concepts like attributes before you have even defined what they are.
  436. # [15:27] <jgraham> Which I guess is not a problem for most people assuming your internal audience statement is basically "people with preexisting knowledge of HTML"
  437. # [15:30] * karlcow is trying to guess which document jgraham is talking about
  438. # [15:30] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-73-123.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  439. # [15:31] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-78-121.dynamic.amis.net)
  440. # [15:32] * Joins: supergreg (n=Miranda@unaffiliated/supergreg)
  441. # [15:33] <Lachy> jgraham, which copy of the document are you reading? Are you reading a cached version?
  442. # [15:34] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  443. # [15:35] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  444. # [15:35] <jgraham> Lachy: Maybe. Paste the URL in case I am not looking at the right one
  445. # [15:35] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
  446. # [15:37] <jgraham> OK, the subsections are of 2.1.2
  447. # [15:37] <jgraham> (I had the older version before)
  448. # [15:38] <karlcow> jgraham: it is the how to read
  449. # [15:38] <Lachy> ah, ok. I've moved the How To Read section to the end, as karlcow suggested now, and added an issue stating that it may be dropped
  450. # [15:38] <Lachy> in my local copy. Not checked in yet
  451. # [15:40] <Lachy> hsivonen, from v.nu: "Error: End of file seen and there were open elements." - That would be much more useful if it told me which element wasn't closed
  452. # [15:40] <hsivonen> Lachy: ok
  453. # [15:40] <hsivonen> Lachy: status of this document says HTML 5 is not under /TR/
  454. # [15:43] <Lachy> gsnedders, there's a weird bug with anolis where if a <section> element isn't properly closed, all the heading levels get messed up
  455. # [15:43] <Lachy> using the replaceHeadings plugin
  456. # [15:45] <Lachy> however, I must say that using <h1> for all headings in the source is proving extremely convenient for restructuring purposes
  457. # [15:46] <Lachy> I just wish there were a way to make TextMate recognise the section element, so it could be collapsed in source view like div can
  458. # [15:47] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  459. # [15:49] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-78-121.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  460. # [15:52] <raspberry-lemon> Lachy: i'm pretty sure you can edit textmate's html bundle
  461. # [15:53] <Lachy> raspberry-lemon, I probably can. I just need to figure out which file to edit
  462. # [15:53] <raspberry-lemon> you don't have to edit the file directly
  463. # [15:53] <raspberry-lemon> Bundles -> Bundle Editor -> Show Bundle Editor
  464. # [15:53] <Lachy> I renamed it to "HTML 5 Reference" with the subtitle "A Web Developer’s Guide to HTML 5"
  465. # [15:54] <jgraham> annevk: Not using html5lib is lame :)
  466. # [15:55] <annevk> if html5lib didn't delay processing by sixteen seconds
  467. # [15:56] <Philip`> Use lxml's HTML parser
  468. # [15:57] <raspberry-lemon> Lachy: inside the HTML bundle there's an item called HTML with a little L icon next to it
  469. # [15:57] <jgraham> annevk: It's not like you need to update the list very often
  470. # [15:58] <raspberry-lemon> if you replace the contents with http://gist.github.com/54566 it should let you collapse sections
  471. # [15:58] <Philip`> jgraham: The delay is a huge pain when updating the script during development, though
  472. # [15:58] <jgraham> Philip`: Fair enough
  473. # [16:00] <Lachy> raspberry-lemon, found it and fixed the folding support. I'll have to go through and add all the HTML5 elements later, once I figure out what the rest of the file does
  474. # [16:01] <raspberry-lemon> http://johnmuhl.com/notebook/textmate-html5-bundle looks like someone's on it already
  475. # [16:03] <annevk> jgraham, it was mostly due to what Philip` said
  476. # [16:06] <Philip`> A year ago, 9 pages (from 130K) had <!doctype html>
  477. # [16:07] <Philip`> A few days ago, 16 (from a different 130K) had <!doctype html>
  478. # [16:07] <Philip`> which doesn't seem like huge growth
  479. # [16:07] <Lachy> raspberry-lemon, nice.
  480. # [16:08] <Philip`> http://www.nimh.nih.gov/ is one
  481. # [16:08] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-145-97.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  482. # [16:08] <Philip`> from a year ago
  483. # [16:09] <zcorpan> Philip`: so xhtml is dying and html5 is rising?
  484. # [16:10] <annevk> Philip`, I like how that page also uses <head profile>
  485. # [16:10] <Philip`> http://www.haroldschogger.com/ also has a <!doctype html> if you look carefully
  486. # [16:11] <raspberry-lemon> <!--paste your source code between these comments -->
  487. # [16:12] <raspberry-lemon> there are still a loot of management type people who insist on xhtml no matter what
  488. # [16:12] <Philip`> zcorpan: Yes, based on the incontrovertible evidence of a few dozen pages
  489. # [16:12] <Philip`> But:
  490. # [16:12] <Philip`> Number of pages with doctypes containing the string "xhtml" a year ago: 23231
  491. # [16:13] <Philip`> Number of pages with doctypes containing the string "xhtml" a few days ago: 32078
  492. # [16:13] <raspberry-lemon> do you have the number of pages with no doctype at all?
  493. # [16:16] <Philip`> raspberry-lemon: Number of pages containing the substring "<!doctype" out of total number of pages processed:
  494. # [16:16] <Philip`> A year ago: 65085 / 124986 (52%)
  495. # [16:16] <Philip`> Some days ago: 73385 / 127208 (58%)
  496. # [16:16] <wilhelm> Interesting.
  497. # [16:16] <Philip`> though it's really dangerous to compare these numbers
  498. # [16:17] <Philip`> because the samples are not equally biased
  499. # [16:17] <wilhelm> Brian will do a recrawl with MAMA soon. Will be interesting to see what has changed.
  500. # [16:17] <Philip`> (They're both random samples from dmoz.org, but dmoz.org itself changes a lot, e.g. some sites add tens of thousands of their own pages which can distort the results)
  501. # [16:18] <Philip`> (so I should probably stop trying to compare the numbers, because the results will just be meaningless and misleading)
  502. # [16:19] <Philip`> ((That's "tens of thousands of their own pages" added to the 4.5 million in dmoz.org, so it's only hundreds in my samples))
  503. # [16:21] <Lachy> for the very first example document, in the introductory tutorial, should I begin with the most basic <!DOCTYPE html><title>Foo</title><p>..., or should I include the <html>, <head> and <body>?
  504. # [16:21] <wilhelm> Yeah, cnn.com alone accounts for 5% of the pages on dmoz.
  505. # [16:22] <Lachy> hmm. Perhaps I should do the latter so that it helps readers understand the structure more easily
  506. # [16:22] <Philip`> wilhelm: It doesn't now, and didn't a year ago
  507. # [16:22] <Philip`> wilhelm: but it did at some point a bit earlier than a year ago
  508. # [16:22] <zcorpan> Lachy: don't omit tags, that's a confusing feature you should go into after all else (if at all)
  509. # [16:22] <Philip`> Lachy: Everybody writes <html> and <head> and <body>, so it's just unnecessarily confusing to try to tell them that it's unnecessary
  510. # [16:23] <wilhelm> Our data dump is a bit old. (c:
  511. # [16:23] <zcorpan> at least judging from comments on sitepoint forums
  512. # [16:23] <annevk> tag omission is prolly best learned from the spec itself :)
  513. # [16:24] <Lachy> zcorpan, the guide will cover tag omission
  514. # [16:24] <zcorpan> annevk: if you're serializing yes but not if you're writing markup - the rules for tag omission are not very understandable
  515. # [16:25] <Lachy> it will cover everything. The issue is just how and in what order things will be covered
  516. # [16:25] <Philip`> It particularly gets confusing if you tell people they can omit the tags, but if they want to use lang then they have to add some back in, and if they want a class then they have to too, etc
  517. # [16:25] <Philip`> and it only saves five lines of copied-and-pasted code, so it doesn't seem worthwhile
  518. # [16:26] <zcorpan> Philip`: having to not omit tags on which you want to use attributes seems not so confusing - it's more the rules when they can be omitted
  519. # [16:26] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-71-211.dynamic.amis.net)
  520. # [16:26] <zcorpan> (when having no attributes)
  521. # [16:27] <annevk> zcorpan, indeed, it will ensure that a small elite can still show of at parties with validating pages that omit various tags of which the elements are required
  522. # [16:27] <Philip`> zcorpan: It's the idea that you can omit tags and they implicitly exist even though you can't see them in your code, and that adding the tags into your code won't change the page at all (but will let you add attributes), that seems confusing
  523. # [16:28] <Philip`> zcorpan: since normally if you don't write something, it doesn't exist
  524. # [16:28] <zcorpan> Philip`: true
  525. # [16:28] <jgraham> <tbody>
  526. # [16:28] <jgraham> No one writes <tbody>, ever but it is always there
  527. # [16:28] <jgraham> Which is even more confusing
  528. # [16:28] <Philip`> The difference is that you can survive perfectly happily for many years without ever knowing a <tbody> is there
  529. # [16:28] <zcorpan> annevk: if the tag omission feature is only intended for a small elite (us?) i'd rather see the feature dropped
  530. # [16:29] <Philip`> where you'll need to know about <html> and <body> etc as soon as you add lang or class or style
  531. # [16:29] <annevk> mu
  532. # [16:29] <Philip`> s/where/whereas/
  533. # [16:29] <jgraham> Philip`: Unless you ever write a script or certian CSS selectors that manipulate a table
  534. # [16:30] <jgraham> e.g. table#foo > td doesn't seem so implausible
  535. # [16:30] <Philip`> jgraham: Nobody uses child selectors
  536. # [16:30] <Philip`> And anyway that'd never match anything because you forgot the tr :-)
  537. # [16:31] <jgraham> Philip`: Presumably now IE supports child selectors, people will be more inclined to use them
  538. # [16:31] <Philip`> and if you're writing a script, you'll use the table.rows property
  539. # [16:32] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@208.253.64.131)
  540. # [16:32] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Ex-Chat")
  541. # [16:32] <zcorpan> jgraham: why would you want to write table > td rather than table td ?
  542. # [16:32] <jgraham> Philip`: You would? Learning element-specific interfaces always seems like a lot of effort when you can always use a generic interface to do the same thing
  543. # [16:33] <jgraham> zcorpan: Realistically, because that's how you were thinking about it. Theoretically because it is faster
  544. # [16:33] <jgraham> Or because you have nested tables
  545. # [16:33] <Philip`> jgraham: Two thirds of pages with CSS don't even use descendant selectors
  546. # [16:33] <annevk> table > td is certainly faster, it doesn't match anything normally :)
  547. # [16:33] <Philip`> jgraham: so they're unlikely to flock to even more complex selectors
  548. # [16:33] <jgraham> annevk: :-p
  549. # [16:34] <jgraham> Philip`: Where did you get that data from?
  550. # [16:34] <Philip`> jgraham: http://triin.net/2006/06/12/CSS#figure-30
  551. # [16:34] <zcorpan> jgraham: "table td" is less to type and looks nicer, but i take your point about nested tables
  552. # [16:35] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  553. # [16:35] * jgraham wonders what he was wondering when he first typed "/me wonders"
  554. # [16:36] <Philip`> Just put a class on all your <td>s and then you don't have to worry about this selector mess at all
  555. # [16:36] <jgraham> Oh, I know, it was whether the CSS usage will have changed in the past 2 years or whether IE6 is still too influential
  556. # [16:36] <Philip`> (And I would assume very few people used nested tables that aren't CSSless layout tables)
  557. # [16:37] <Philip`> It'd be interesting to see how many of the non-trivial selectors are used for browser-targetting hacks rather than for anything sensible
  558. # [16:38] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  559. # [16:38] <zcorpan> i guess the most common child selector is html>body
  560. # [16:39] <jgraham> Anyway, the point is that a markup guide should mention tag inference because a) it is not really that hard to understand b) authors often unwittingly use it, specifically in the case of <tbody>
  561. # [16:40] <Philip`> I don't disagree that it should be mentioned :-)
  562. # [16:40] <jgraham> and c) if it is not mentioned it will confuse people who have never heard of <tbody> in HTML 4 and think it is a new concept in HTML 5
  563. # [16:40] <Philip`> I just think it makes sense to promote (via the early text and the examples) a style which is closest to what people do today, e.g. always have html/head/body and never have tbody
  564. # [16:41] <Philip`> because that seems to work alright today
  565. # [16:41] <zcorpan> i think it's ok to be mentioned and even spell out the rules in a more understandable way than the spec (but possibly with less precision), but i wouldn't *start* with it
  566. # [16:42] <jgraham> zcorpan: That sounds sensible indeed.
  567. # [16:42] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  568. # [16:42] * Quits: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.41)
  569. # [16:43] <Philip`> Yikes
  570. # [16:43] <Lachy> can anyone suggest a simple way to describe the meaning or purpose of a DOCTYPE, without going into details about standards mode?
  571. # [16:43] <Philip`> Lots of people use X-UA-Compatible
  572. # [16:43] <Philip`> 237 pages
  573. # [16:45] <Philip`> Lachy: "The <!DOCTYPE html> line tells the web browser that this is a modern web page, and stops it from emulating the bugs that are needed for compatibility with some old web pages" or something like that?
  574. # [16:45] <Philip`> (That's 237 pages with the X-UA-Compatible HTTP header)
  575. # [16:46] <gsnedders> Lachy: Do you have a minimal test-case?
  576. # [16:46] <Lachy> gsnedders, I will make one
  577. # [16:47] <Philip`> Common values:
  578. # [16:47] <Philip`> 120 IE=7
  579. # [16:47] <Philip`> 114 IE=EmulateIE7
  580. # [16:47] <Philip`> 2 IE=EmulateIE8
  581. # [16:47] <Philip`> 1 X-UA-Compatible
  582. # [16:47] <gsnedders> Lachy: The algorithm used for headers is almost certainly correct per spec, and it is HTML 5 that is wrong. If the parsing is b0rked, that's somebody else's problem
  583. # [16:48] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oi
  584. # [16:48] <gsnedders> jgraham: :)
  585. # [16:49] <Lachy> yeah, it could be the parsing. I will certainly blame jgraham for the bug
  586. # [16:49] <Philip`> 644 pages use <meta blah x-ua-compatible>, though over half of those are IMDB and Myspace
  587. # [16:49] <annevk> :/
  588. # [16:51] <Philip`> http://www.hindustantimes.com/ <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=7;FF=3;OtherUA=4" /> - oh dear
  589. # [16:52] <Philip`> http://www.it-production.com/ <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" />
  590. # [16:52] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  591. # [16:53] <Lachy> gsnedders, maybe it's not a bug after all. I'm having difficulty reproducing it. I may have simply miscounted the number of section element start and end tags
  592. # [16:54] <Lachy> if it happens again, I'll investigate more thoroughly
  593. # [16:58] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#getting-started-with-html-5
  594. # [16:58] <Philip`> 413 pages send X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff
  595. # [16:58] <Philip`> but only 59 if you exclude blogspot.com
  596. # [16:59] <Lachy> this is the first document that the tutorial will teach http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/examples/example01.html
  597. # [16:59] <Philip`> Lachy: The meta charset is scary
  598. # [16:59] <Philip`> Also, tabs are ugly
  599. # [17:00] <Lachy> I know, but I'm not going to omit the charset declaration from any document. Authors need to learn to always include it
  600. # [17:00] <Lachy> well, any HTML document. Not XHTML documents.
  601. # [17:00] <Lachy> not sure what I'll do about polyglot documents though
  602. # [17:01] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  603. # [17:03] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  604. # [17:04] * Philip` wonders why he has a weird black pixel in his PDF document, and then realises it's because he accidentally used \dot instead of \bullet
  605. # [17:04] <zcorpan> "This line is used to indicate that the document is an HTML 5 document" hmm
  606. # [17:07] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  607. # [17:07] <Philip`> Lachy: That line (that zcorpan quoted) fails to give any justification to why authors should bother with typing that or why it's "good practice"
  608. # [17:07] <Philip`> and so a sensibly lazy author might decide to not bother with it
  609. # [17:07] <Philip`> I think it's important to say that if they don't have that line, their browser will be even weirder and buggier than it usually is
  610. # [17:08] <Philip`> so they're harming themselves if they don't use it
  611. # [17:08] <jgraham> Lachy: The sentence two before that is wrong when applied to XHTML (which is fine if you are using HTML to mean text/html but it doesn't look like yiou are)
  612. # [17:08] <Philip`> Oh, and if they don't have the doctype then they won't be able to use any new HTML5 features in IE8
  613. # [17:09] <Lachy> jgraham, what makes you think I'm not using HTML to refer only to HTML?
  614. # [17:10] <Lachy> zcorpan, that's an incomplete sentence. I need to say something about validators
  615. # [17:10] <Lachy> or perhaps find some other way to say what the doctype is for
  616. # [17:10] <zcorpan> not sure you need to say anything about validators
  617. # [17:10] <Lachy> I really wanted to avoid the standards vs. quirks mode issue in this section
  618. # [17:11] <zcorpan> Lachy: since standards vs. quirks is the reason we have a doctype at all, it seems not mentioning it when explaining what it's for is going to be misleading
  619. # [17:11] <jgraham> Lachy: The fact that you use it to mean "HTML the abstract language" and "HTML the text/html serialisation of the abstract lanuage"
  620. # [17:11] <Philip`> You wouldn't need to explain the specific issues or the reason why it exists, but I think you need to state that it causes problems if you don't have it
  621. # [17:12] <Philip`> s/the reason/the historical reason/
  622. # [17:12] * Joins: billmason (n=bmason@ip8.unival.com)
  623. # [17:12] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-2d87eb8feaaa93c4)
  624. # [17:20] <Lachy> "The purpose of the DOCTYPE is to ensure that web browsers interpret the document using standards mode, rather than the mode intended for handling legacy content."
  625. # [17:20] <Lachy> is that ok?
  626. # [17:21] <gsnedders> Lachy: "What's standards mode?"
  627. # [17:22] <Lachy> see, this is why I didn't want to go into that yet!
  628. # [17:24] <Philip`> It seems easier to phrase it as a negative, i.e. saying that it makes the browser not implement old bugs
  629. # [17:24] * gsnedders agrees with Philip`
  630. # [17:24] * gsnedders also agrees that it ought to be mentioned tehre
  631. # [17:24] <gsnedders> *there
  632. # [17:25] <Lachy> "For historical reasons, the purpose of the DOCTYPE is to ensure that web browsers do not interpret the document in a way intended for handling legacy content that exists on the web."
  633. # [17:26] <jgraham> The DOCTYPE is a holdover from the early days of the web. Using this doctype will ensure that web browsers do not try to replicate weird behaviour in older browsers that some content came to rely on
  634. # [17:26] <Philip`> Are you going to ignore that IE8 won't support new features at all, if you don't use the doctype?
  635. # [17:27] <Philip`> (so it's not just to prevent weird behaviour; it's to allow modern behaviour)
  636. # [17:27] <gsnedders> The DOCTYPE is required so that browsers do not treat the document as they treat legacy, non-standards compliant, content.
  637. # [17:27] <Philip`> gsnedders: That's just wrong
  638. # [17:27] <wilhelm> What's legacy content?:P
  639. # [17:27] <Philip`> gsnedders: because they'll treat perfectly standards-compliant HTML 3.2 content that way too
  640. # [17:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: How so?
  641. # [17:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: True.
  642. # [17:28] <zcorpan> wilhelm: deployed content
  643. # [17:28] <gsnedders> Philip`: And 4.01 Transitional
  644. # [17:28] <gsnedders> wilhelm: True.
  645. # [17:28] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  646. # [17:33] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  647. # [17:33] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  648. # [17:33] <wilhelm> zcorpan: _I_ know what it means, but I don't think that part of our tribal language equally well understood elsewhere. jgraham's wording is better, I think.
  649. # [17:33] <wilhelm> +is
  650. # [17:37] * Joins: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-11-249.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  651. # [17:37] <Lachy> "The DOCTYPE is a remnant from the early days of the web. For historical reasons, it is needed to ensure that web browsers interpret the document correctly, rather than using a special compatibility mode designed to replicate the behaviour of older browsers, which is intended for handling legacy content."
  652. # [17:38] <Lachy> I'm still not sure what to replace "legacy content" with
  653. # [17:38] <Lachy> I used "legacy HTML content"
  654. # [17:39] <Lachy> I'm sure the meaning of legacy is well understood, and so that should be clear enough
  655. # [17:40] * svl would drop the entire "which is intended" subclause.
  656. # [17:40] <Lachy> why?
  657. # [17:40] <svl> Keep your sentences as short as possible.
  658. # [17:40] <Lachy> ok
  659. # [17:40] <svl> and at first glance I find it confusing what "which" applies to.
  660. # [17:43] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  661. # [17:43] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  662. # [17:43] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@208.253.64.131) ("Leaving.")
  663. # [17:48] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  664. # [17:50] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  665. # [17:54] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-145-97.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  666. # [18:09] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-e63e4f6c77a767e2)
  667. # [18:10] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  668. # [18:11] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  669. # [18:11] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  670. # [18:19] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  671. # [18:21] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@216.239.45.19)
  672. # [18:37] * Joins: pauld_ (n=pauld@host81-130-26-185.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  673. # [18:38] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-76-102-160-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  674. # [18:46] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@81.130.23.37) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  675. # [18:50] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  676. # [18:51] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  677. # [18:53] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  678. # [18:54] * Quits: pauld_ (n=pauld@host81-130-26-185.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  679. # [18:59] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  680. # [18:59] * Joins: rubys2 (n=rubys@216.239.45.19)
  681. # [19:04] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  682. # [19:04] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@216.239.45.19) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  683. # [19:09] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.222)
  684. # [19:10] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  685. # [19:10] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Ex-Chat")
  686. # [19:10] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Client Quit)
  687. # [19:10] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  688. # [19:12] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  689. # [19:13] <Philip`> Trying to see where http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090129#l-588 came from: It looks like someone copied-and-pasted the "IE=8;FF=3;OtherUA=4" from http://www.alistapart.com/articles/beyonddoctype, then manually changed the 8 to a 7, leaving the rest unaltered, and then it spread around a handful of forum postings and web sites
  690. # [19:15] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  691. # [19:15] <Philip`> How can people be so unaware of what they're doing? Do they really think it's sane to have a version string that says any UA other than IE and Firefox should render as if it was version 4?
  692. # [19:16] <Philip`> Lachy: If you have invalid / bad practise examples in your authoring guide, please including some mouse event scripts that make it impossible for anyone to copy-and-paste from those examples
  693. # [19:16] <Philip`> s/including/include/
  694. # [19:16] * Quits: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  695. # [19:17] * Joins: pergj (n=pergj@195.159.61.155)
  696. # [19:18] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  697. # [19:19] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9de7.l.pppool.de)
  698. # [19:21] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  699. # [19:29] * gsnedders wonders how much point there in applying to Opera — accommodation may well be horribly complex to arrange :\
  700. # [19:31] <wilhelm> For an internship?
  701. # [19:31] <gsnedders> Yeah
  702. # [19:31] <gsnedders> (complex because I'm under the age of majority in most of Europe)
  703. # [19:34] <wilhelm> Opera has some apartments available for people staying for shorter periods of time. I'm not sure what the plans are for accomodation for summer interns, but it can't hurt to ask. (c:
  704. # [19:35] <gsnedders> wilhelm: There may well still be the issue of age, meh.
  705. # [19:41] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  706. # [19:43] <takkaria> wilhelm: thanks for mentioning the internship thing, I have an interview next friday :)
  707. # [19:44] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  708. # [19:57] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  709. # [20:00] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9de7.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  710. # [20:02] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9de7.l.pppool.de)
  711. # [20:04] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  712. # [20:04] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  713. # [20:08] * Quits: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  714. # [20:16] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  715. # [20:16] * Joins: jwalden_ (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  716. # [20:16] * jwalden_ is now known as jwalden
  717. # [20:24] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  718. # [20:24] <wilhelm> takkaria: Cool. Who's doing the interview?
  719. # [20:28] * Quits: rubys2 (n=rubys@216.239.45.19) ("Leaving.")
  720. # [20:29] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@216.239.45.19)
  721. # [20:32] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9de7.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  722. # [20:32] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben|lunch
  723. # [20:32] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-06448f080f2e6efa) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  724. # [20:33] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9de7.l.pppool.de)
  725. # [20:40] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  726. # [20:41] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@216.239.45.19) ("Leaving.")
  727. # [20:44] <takkaria> wilhelm: looks like Bibbi Svärd
  728. # [20:45] * Quits: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  729. # [20:45] * gavin___ is now known as gavin_
  730. # [20:47] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  731. # [20:49] <wilhelm> Ah. At the Swedish office.
  732. # [20:50] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  733. # [20:51] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  734. # [20:51] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no)
  735. # [20:51] * gsnedders wonders what to write as a covering letter
  736. # [20:53] <takkaria> why you're interested in working there, highlighting relevant experience from your CV, explaining why you do or don't fit the requirements laid out in the description, roughly
  737. # [20:54] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Connection reset by peer)
  738. # [20:54] <Philip`> You should put some clipart on it too
  739. # [20:54] * gsnedders blatantly sucks at applying :)
  740. # [20:55] * Joins: jwalden_ (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  741. # [20:55] * jwalden_ is now known as jwalden
  742. # [20:56] <gsnedders> takkaria: Fun: I don't really have irrelevant experience on my CV :)
  743. # [20:57] <takkaria> well, you highlight the most relevant bits
  744. # [20:57] <takkaria> if it's all most relevant, choose some of it to highlight and highlight that
  745. # [20:59] <Philip`> You could make up some fake irrelevant experience, and then highlight the rest
  746. # [20:59] <Philip`> and because it's irrelevant nobody will ask you about it and so they'll never notice it's fake
  747. # [21:01] <takkaria> ideally, it should be at a small business whose boss was shot and whose premises were burnt down whilst thieves made off with the employment records for identity fraud purposes
  748. # [21:02] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-5647edb630217804)
  749. # [21:06] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  750. # [21:06] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  751. # [21:07] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  752. # [21:14] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  753. # [21:16] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@216.239.45.19)
  754. # [21:26] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-147-235.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  755. # [21:27] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  756. # [21:28] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  757. # [21:33] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  758. # [21:34] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  759. # [21:36] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.41)
  760. # [21:43] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  761. # [21:56] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9de7.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  762. # [22:07] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@216.239.45.19) ("Leaving.")
  763. # [22:11] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  764. # [22:11] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  765. # [22:14] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@216.239.45.19)
  766. # [22:18] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-e63e4f6c77a767e2) ("The computer fell asleep")
  767. # [22:19] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  768. # [22:21] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  769. # [22:21] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  770. # [22:24] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-42-25.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  771. # [22:25] <Hixie> what's the new access control spec called again?
  772. # [22:25] <Hixie> CSRE?
  773. # [22:27] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@216.239.45.19) ("Leaving.")
  774. # [22:29] <Philip`> CORS?
  775. # [22:30] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  776. # [22:32] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-147-235.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  777. # [22:32] * Joins: ginger (n=nessy@124-168-147-235.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  778. # [22:33] * Quits: ginger (n=nessy@124-168-147-235.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Client Quit)
  779. # [22:33] <Hixie> Philip`: thanks
  780. # [22:36] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  781. # [22:38] * Quits: sicking_ (n=chatzill@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.1b3pre/20090126033406]")
  782. # [22:39] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  783. # [22:41] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.244.17.63)
  784. # [22:43] * Quits: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  785. # [22:44] * Joins: inimino (n=inimino@67.207.138.202)
  786. # [22:44] <Dashiva> So first there are lots of complaints that specifying error handling endorses errors
  787. # [22:45] <Dashiva> Even though the nonconforming attributes and stuff are hidden so Roy Fielding can't find them
  788. # [22:48] <karlcow> former: social effects with regards to browsers in face of authoring, latter: specifications on what has changed or not in a language.
  789. # [22:48] <karlcow> Conflating two different issues. tsss tsss ;)
  790. # [22:49] <Dashiva> If people can't find the nonconfirming stuff in the spec, they can't be confused to believe it's conforming
  791. # [22:50] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net)
  792. # [22:51] <karlcow> Dashiva: the question is not here.
  793. # [22:57] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.222) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  794. # [22:58] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@216.239.45.19)
  795. # [23:00] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no) ("Leaving")
  796. # [23:01] <Philip`> Dashiva: He found enough of the nonconforming stuff (in the description of error handling for that attribute) to think it was a conforming part of the language, and there isn't anything that states it's non-conforming
  797. # [23:08] * Parts: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-71-211.dynamic.amis.net)
  798. # [23:10] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  799. # [23:15] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  800. # [23:16] <Lachy> I like how, so far, that everyone who's whinging about the name attribute being omitted is silently ignoring the arguments that it was XHTML 1.1 that dropped it first.
  801. # [23:18] <slightlyoff> Lachy: most of the web silently ignores XHTML 1.1, so they're just following suit ;-)
  802. # [23:27] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  803. # [23:29] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  804. # [23:29] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  805. # [23:31] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009010213 [Firefox 3.2a1pre/20090127153511]")
  806. # [23:31] <Lachy> Hixie, re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0586.html ...
  807. # [23:31] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  808. # [23:32] <Lachy> with the audience defined as "... individuals wishing to establish the correctness of documents with respect to the requirements it describes.", including DOM APIs doesn't seem necessary
  809. # [23:33] <Lachy> to me, that audience section suggests that it's of more use to HTML conformance checkers, for which the DOM APIs have no relevance.
  810. # [23:33] <Lachy> unless they're going to try and check the conformance of a script too, which is impossible
  811. # [23:34] <roc> what the Web really needs is aesthetic conformance requirements
  812. # [23:36] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  813. # [23:37] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  814. # [23:38] <slightlyoff> roc: I'd like to browse the web through such a filter sometimes...oh, wait, that's what adblock is for
  815. # [23:40] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  816. # [23:40] <Lachy> roc, that's easy. Just add myspace.com/* to your adblock and youll block a significant portion of asthetically displeasing pages
  817. # [23:42] * Quits: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.41)
  818. # [23:43] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  819. # [23:47] <Dashiva> Lachy: There's a firefox extension for myspace
  820. # [23:47] <Lachy> that does what?
  821. # [23:48] <Dashiva> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6067
  822. # [23:49] <Lachy> LOL
  823. # [23:49] <Lachy> I gotta install that one
  824. # [23:49] <Lachy> oh, it doesn't work with FF3
  825. # [23:50] <roc> oh noes
  826. # [23:51] <Philip`> If you block MySpace then you'll block a third of the RDFa namespaces I've seen on the web
  827. # [23:51] <Philip`> which would be a terrible thing
  828. # [23:51] <Lachy> cool, I can kill 2 birds with one stone
  829. # [23:57] * Quits: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-11-249.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  830. # Session Close: Fri Jan 30 00:00:00 2009

The end :)