/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 25 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] <gsnedders> oh noes! othermaciej following me on Twitter!
  4. # [00:05] * gsnedders hides
  5. # [00:06] <othermaciej> gsnedders: you followed me first dude
  6. # [00:06] <gsnedders> Yeah, sure.
  7. # [00:06] <gsnedders> I never said anything to the contrary :P
  8. # [00:07] * karlcow still wonders if gsnedders needs scripts examples
  9. # [00:08] <gsnedders> karlcow: It would be helpful.
  10. # [00:09] * Quits: bgalbraith_ (n=bgalbrai@72.158.245.34)
  11. # [00:13] <karlcow> gsnedders: SPARQL package in python to do query on an RDF graph http://www.ivan-herman.net/Misc/PythonStuff/SPARQL/Doc-SPARQL/
  12. # [00:13] <gsnedders> karlcow: Yeah, I saw that. Only issue: I don't know SPARQL at all
  13. # [00:16] <karlcow> SPARQL looks like a lot SQL
  14. # [00:17] <karlcow> and if you don't want to go through the insanity of parsing RDF with XSLT (aka headaches guaranteed) you should use SPARQL
  15. # [00:17] <karlcow> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/j-sparql/
  16. # [00:17] <karlcow> in this article there are very basic examples
  17. # [00:17] <karlcow> the first example is
  18. # [00:17] <karlcow> PREFIX foaf: <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/>
  19. # [00:17] <karlcow> SELECT ?url
  20. # [00:17] <karlcow> FROM <bloggers.rdf>
  21. # [00:17] <karlcow> WHERE {
  22. # [00:17] <karlcow> ?contributor foaf:name "Jon Foobar" .
  23. # [00:17] <karlcow> ?contributor foaf:weblog ?url .
  24. # [00:18] <karlcow> }
  25. # [00:19] <gsnedders> karlcow: How do I deal with not knowing what element is the child of root (e.g., it might be WD, it might be REC, etc.)?
  26. # [00:19] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host86-134-106-105.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
  27. # [00:21] * tantek wonders rhetorically if there might be a better IRC channel for RDF discussions.
  28. # [00:21] <gsnedders> Peh. Being on-topic would be logic, and we're meant to leave that at the door when coming in here.
  29. # [00:21] <gsnedders> s/logic/logical/
  30. # [00:25] <tantek> being logical can often improve the economic use of your resources such as time, assuming that is part of your self-interest.
  31. # [00:27] <danbri> I guess SQL is in scope nowadays?
  32. # [00:28] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host86-134-106-105.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
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  34. # [00:28] <karlcow> gsnedders: I just created one for you
  35. # [00:28] <karlcow> so you can understand
  36. # [00:28] <karlcow> Use the SPARQL endpoint http://sparql.org/sparql.html with the form
  37. # [00:28] <karlcow> and type
  38. # [00:28] <karlcow> PREFIX dc: <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/>
  39. # [00:28] <karlcow> PREFIX rec: <http://www.w3.org/2001/02pd/rec54#>
  40. # [00:28] <karlcow> SELECT ?title
  41. # [00:28] <karlcow> FROM <http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/tr.rdf>
  42. # [00:28] <karlcow> WHERE {
  43. # [00:28] <karlcow> ?spec a rec:REC .
  44. # [00:28] <karlcow> ?spec dc:title ?title .
  45. # [00:29] <karlcow> }
  46. # [00:29] <danbri> i've been nudging the http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/rdb2rdf/ folk (working on sql / sparql mappings) to look at html5 sql apis
  47. # [00:29] <karlcow> here I'm asking to display the title of all documents which are a Rec
  48. # [00:29] <danbri> eg. in last week's semweb cg call
  49. # [00:30] <karlcow> tantek: you can ignore the lines too ;) I very rarely read the logs of this channel for example, and that's fine.
  50. # [00:31] <tantek> karlcow, focus / and on-topic scales better in terms of communication for more people, rather than telling everyone to ignore lines and speak whatever in whatever context.
  51. # [00:32] <danbri> tantek, are you new here? #whatwg isn't famed for ontopicity...
  52. # [00:33] * Quits: svl_ (n=me@69.Red-88-2-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  53. # [00:33] <tantek> danbri, I lurk often, and most of the time see quite on topic discussions between Hixie, hsivonen, et al
  54. # [00:33] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-43-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  55. # [00:35] <karlcow> tantek giving a meta class related to good use of channel (not respecting the channel topic then) aka respecting the topic (here html5). Conclusion: eat your own dog food. :)))
  56. # [00:36] <karlcow> gsnedders: I realize that I have forgotten to give you the link to the description of the vocabulary so you can play with other items of the graphs. http://www.w3.org/2001/02pd/rec54#
  57. # [00:36] <tantek> karlcow, html5 being ontopic I presumed that semantic use of HTML4 was also ontopic - pardon me if that was an error.
  58. # [00:36] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@mobile-166-214-057-167.mycingular.net)
  59. # [00:37] <tantek> for microformats specific discussions I do redirect folks to #microformats
  60. # [00:37] * karlcow is just talking about the meta discussion we are just having now about IRC usage ;)
  61. # [00:37] <Hixie> there's no topic in this channel
  62. # [00:37] <Hixie> people can talk abotu whatever they want to
  63. # [00:37] <Hixie> it's just a place for people who work on html5 to wind down
  64. # [00:38] * karlcow doesn't really care. gsnedders is a nice chap. He asked for help, I'm giving a bit of help. And it might benefit others. end of the metadiscussion on my side.
  65. # [00:38] <gsnedders> karlcow: I'll have a look at all that tomorrow
  66. # [00:38] <Hixie> helping people is always welcome on this channel :-)
  67. # [00:38] <gsnedders> karlcow: I have to go sleep now
  68. # [00:38] <karlcow> gsnedders: have a good night
  69. # [00:39] <gsnedders> Besides, I could always go back to discussing it with MikeSmith in #html-wg where it almost certainly is off-topic :P
  70. # [00:39] <karlcow> hehe
  71. # [00:40] <tantek> Hixie, apologies, for some reason I gotten the impression that the purpose/focus of this channel was HTML5 ;)
  72. # [00:40] <Hixie> nah the purpose is just so i have a rapturous audience to listen to my rants
  73. # [00:40] * Hixie ducks
  74. # [00:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: Re: your email, that means I can please both you and Anne at once. Wow. :)
  75. # [00:41] <Hixie> gsnedders: such a rare opportunity!
  76. # [00:42] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) ("Leaving")
  77. # [00:45] * Philip` wonders how off-topic he could attempt to drag the channel before it just got very irritating to everyone
  78. # [00:45] <Philip`> So, is anyone else waiting for the TF2 scout update?
  79. # [00:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: Oh come on. Try harder.
  80. # [00:46] <Hixie> Philip`: no but I _am_ waiting for Half-Life 2 Episode 3
  81. # [00:47] <Philip`> The double-Payload map looks quite interesting
  82. # [00:48] <Philip`> Hixie: That's not quite the same type of waiting, since Ep3 is a lot of months away and the TF2 update is hours away :-)
  83. # [00:48] <Hixie> :-)
  84. # [00:49] <gsnedders> Anyone else got GTA IV: TLAD yet?
  85. # [00:50] <Philip`> (They seem to have totally failed at the idea that episodic content is meant to be faster to produce than a full game)
  86. # [00:50] * gsnedders on the whole thought it was a bit short only taking seven hours to get through
  87. # [00:50] <gsnedders> Though, to be fair, that isn't actually that much shorter than GTA IV itself (11 hours, IIRC)
  88. # [00:51] * karlcow is kicking gsnedders to bed
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  90. # [00:51] <gsnedders> Oh, yeah. I did mean to do that
  91. # [00:51] * gsnedders thanks karlcow for the reminder, and goes
  92. # [00:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: You should play TF2! I must have spent well over three hundred hours on it, which is pretty good value for money
  93. # [00:51] <Hixie> Philip`: indeed
  94. # [00:51] <Hixie> bbiab
  95. # [00:52] <gsnedders> karlcow: Molly sends a hug and kiss, FWIW
  96. # [00:55] <karlcow> yeeeha
  97. # [00:56] * karlcow wonders if gsnedders goes to bed with Molly. hmmmm no no don't answer. TMI
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  100. # [01:22] <ehird> Am I to assume you guys have seen the source of http://www.apple.com/safari/?
  101. # [01:22] <ehird> (Hint: it's html5. It uses header, nav, section, all those things, too, not just the doctype.)
  102. # [01:24] <Philip`> It's not even valid, though :-(
  103. # [01:25] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-d9d974bd025e9149)
  104. # [01:25] <ehird> Philip`: The header looks controled by the site-wide CMS.
  105. # [01:25] <roc> anyone here got IE8 handy to try a testcase for me?
  106. # [01:25] <ehird> Even so, wow. Oh, wait, I forgot, we have to wait until 2012. Nevermind, HTML5 isn't ready yet.
  107. # [01:27] <Philip`> roc: I have a possibly slightly old ("RC1" apparently) copy of IE8
  108. # [01:27] <roc> how about for me *and* dhyatt?
  109. # [01:27] <roc> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/18
  110. # [01:27] <roc> hmm, that may need to be massaged to trigger IE8 standards mode
  111. # [01:27] <roc> give it a standards-mode doctype
  112. # [01:28] <roc> then, when you scroll down, at the bottom there should be a yellow background, with "hello world" in black drawing over it, and with "This text overlaps" on top of that.
  113. # [01:29] <roc> the question is ... is the scrollbar under or over the yellow background?
  114. # [01:29] <roc> thx
  115. # [01:29] <Philip`> roc: The scrollbar is hidden behind the yellow background
  116. # [01:30] <roc> ok
  117. # [01:30] <roc> the "hello world" is visible over the yellow background?
  118. # [01:30] <Philip`> Yes
  119. # [01:30] <Philip`> overlapping the word "This"
  120. # [01:30] <roc> great thanks
  121. # [01:31] * jwalden should install IE8 on his Windows box
  122. # [01:31] <jwalden> after I finish debugging this patch :-)
  123. # [01:31] <Philip`> Compatibility View has the scrollbar and the "Hello world" text all behind the yellow background
  124. # [01:31] <Philip`> (as does quirks mode)
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  127. # [01:39] <roc> yeah thanks
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  151. # [03:16] <Hixie> a <section> in a <header>? sheesh
  152. # [03:17] <Hixie> html5 being abused already :-(
  153. # [03:17] <Hixie> oh lord, an <h3> in a <footer>, too
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  156. # [03:25] <annevk> Hixie, who is wm?
  157. # [03:25] <Hixie> wellington
  158. # [03:25] <Hixie> he pointed out the problem in #content on irc.mozilla.org
  159. # [03:25] <annevk> ta
  160. # [03:27] <jcranmer> you can lead a web developer to semantic paradise, but you can't make him write it :-)
  161. # [03:28] <Hixie> i love that when i edit the websocket part of the spec, the ID gets automatically updated and submitted
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  165. # [03:51] <annevk> yum, Google Search Appliance reminds me of cheese
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  174. # [04:43] <takkaria> crikey, this accessibility hoo-haa over canvas is saddening
  175. # [04:44] <takkaria> it seems to follow from the idea that all content should be equivalent across viewing media
  176. # [04:45] <takkaria> s/viewing//; I guess
  177. # [04:46] <takkaria> but the kinds of things that canvas is there for seem to be basically stuff that can't be equivalent across media
  178. # [04:52] <roc> I wonder why accessibility people haven't shut down the entire games industry
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  183. # [05:17] <annevk> http://280atlas.com/ is pretty cool
  184. # [05:19] <heycam> annevk, you have "© 2003-2008" at the bottom of annevankesteren.nl. i guess it should be 2009?
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  187. # [05:19] <heycam> i couldn't play the video properly on 280atlas.com, so i have no idea what the site does :/
  188. # [05:20] <annevk> it's a WYSIWYG editor for applications
  189. # [05:20] <annevk> Web applications
  190. # [05:21] <heycam> so like the cocoa Interface Builder plus a way to add script or something?
  191. # [05:21] <karlcow> annevk: indeed super impressive. The world of visual basic finally on the Web, with all the bad/good things of it ;)
  192. # [05:21] <karlcow> heycam: yes
  193. # [05:21] <heycam> sounds nifty
  194. # [05:24] <heycam> annevk, in case you missed it just before your irc closed: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090225#l-184
  195. # [05:24] <annevk> ah
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  198. # [05:29] <annevk> ta, fixed
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  201. # [05:45] <annevk> heycam, btw, for SVG you could just say that for all SVG elements transform-origin has a different default value, no?
  202. # [05:46] <annevk> heycam, just like HTML elements have some default style
  203. # [05:46] <heycam> annevk, yes that could be said
  204. # [05:46] <heycam> might be confusing though, having some elements (HTML ones) using the centre as the origin, while SVG elements use the viewport origin
  205. # [05:47] <annevk> with "viewport origin" you mean the x,y of the outermost SVG <svg> element?
  206. # [05:47] <heycam> i think we will likely make transform a property in SVG, so that we can reuse/unify CSS transforms
  207. # [05:47] <heycam> annevk, not the outermost, but the closest ancestor
  208. # [05:47] <annevk> k
  209. # [05:48] <annevk> ideally transforms are the same in CSS/SVG/<canvas>
  210. # [05:48] <heycam> yep
  211. # [05:48] <annevk> with CSS having transforms that affect layout in addition, I suppose
  212. # [05:49] <heycam> svg definitely needs to have viewport-origin or some way of easily rotating objects about their centre points
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  250. # [08:52] <annevk> http://twitter.com/Stormchild/statuses/1248400981
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  261. # [09:36] <Hixie> shockingly, despite a browser having come out today, my site has stayed up
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  274. # [10:38] <Lachy> Hixie, can you provide a way to turn off that new floating status box in the spec? I'm finding it really irritating
  275. # [10:38] <Hixie> oh?
  276. # [10:38] <Hixie> why is it irritating?
  277. # [10:39] <Lachy> because it doesn't scroll along with everything else and is distracting
  278. # [10:40] <Hixie> is there some way i can make it less distracting while still making the information available?
  279. # [10:41] <Lachy> well, one thing you could do is either make them narrower, or increase the left margin on the green element summary boxes, so they don't overlap the edge of them.
  280. # [10:41] <annevk> maybe only show it after scrolling has finished?
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  282. # [10:43] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "Error: Required attributes missing on element script." for <script type="text/javascript" charset="utf-8"> ... </script>
  283. # [10:43] <Philip`> zcorpan: src is missing
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  285. # [10:44] <Lachy> Hixie, maybe make them semi-transparent, and then opaque when they're hovered
  286. # [10:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it would be more helpful if it said that charset is not allowed if there's no src
  287. # [10:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  288. # [10:45] <Hixie> oh god, my cat turned on voiceover
  289. # [10:45] <Hixie> how the heck do you turn it off
  290. # [10:45] <Lachy> Hixie, in System Preferencs is the only way I know of
  291. # [10:45] <zcorpan> Hixie: ask the cat
  292. # [10:45] <Lachy> how did your cat turn it on?
  293. # [10:46] <Hixie> sat on the keyboard
  294. # [10:46] <Hixie> command-f5 apparently
  295. # [10:46] <Hixie> man what a horrifying experience when you're not expecting it
  296. # [10:46] <Hixie> ok what were y'all talking about
  297. # [10:46] * Hixie reads up
  298. # [10:48] <Hixie> annevk: it waits 100ms before showing already
  299. # [10:48] <Hixie> Lachy: green element summary boxes?
  300. # [10:49] <Hixie> i suppose i could hide it while scrolling is happening
  301. # [10:49] <Hixie> and fade it back in
  302. # [10:50] <annevk> transitions ftw
  303. # [10:50] <Lachy> Hixie, these big green boxes that summarise the elements http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-html-element
  304. # [10:51] <Hixie> ooh, hmm
  305. # [10:52] <Hixie> ok let me poke around the css a bit
  306. # [10:52] <Hixie> this'll give me an opportunity to play with the new transition css stuff, too
  307. # [10:52] <Hixie> just gonna listen to a bit more developer's commentary in hl2ep2 first
  308. # [10:53] <zcorpan> Hixie: "I'm not familiar with the Shims browser and didn't find anything worthwhile about it." - http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4050#4821
  309. # [10:53] <Hixie> -_-
  310. # [10:53] <Hixie> any idea what else to call it?
  311. # [10:53] <Hixie> Plugins maybe?
  312. # [10:53] <zcorpan> what do you mean with it?
  313. # [10:53] <Lachy> Hixie, .status { opacity: .4; -o-transition: 1s; -webkit-transition: 1s; } .status:hover { opacity: 1; }
  314. # [10:54] <Hixie> it's supposed to be for anything that's not a browser that might help, JS libraries, Gears-like plugins, IE add-ons, whatever
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  316. # [10:54] <zcorpan> Hixie: how about "JS libraries, plugins, etc"
  317. # [10:55] <Lachy> Hixie, where is the new Shims icon? I can't see it in any of the status boxes
  318. # [10:55] <Hixie> zcorpan: too long
  319. # [10:55] <annevk> Shims? wtf
  320. # [10:55] <Hixie> zcorpan: well
  321. # [10:55] <Hixie> zcorpan: i guess not
  322. # [10:55] <Hixie> zcorpan: i can try
  323. # [10:55] <Hixie> thanks
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  338. # [12:00] <hsivonen> wow. I wrote an interesting bug: the characters in foster-parented text are rotated right by one
  339. # [12:00] <hsivonen> so "bar" becomes "rba"
  340. # [12:00] <nessy> don't apply that to real people
  341. # [12:04] <karlcow> hsivonen: already done by marketing people… :) fcuk
  342. # [12:12] * mpt__ is now known as mpt
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  347. # [12:58] <hsivonen> was there a reason why the spec chose to do the taint management thing like Gecko does instead of doing the per flush tainting like WebKit does?
  348. # [12:58] <Lachy> Hixie, I just got an undeliverable mail error when trying to reply to a thread on whatwg. Has something gone wrong with the mailing list?
  349. # [12:59] <Hixie> not to my knowledge, what does the message say exactly?
  350. # [12:59] <Lachy> I'll forward you a copy
  351. # [13:00] <Lachy> sent.
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  356. # [13:23] <Hixie> Lachy: looks like the mail server in question ran out of disk space, i expect dreamhost will fix it in due course
  357. # [13:28] <Lachy> ok
  358. # [13:30] <Hixie> i filed a support ticket just in case
  359. # [13:30] <Hixie> thanks
  360. # [13:31] <Hixie> btw try the spec now
  361. # [13:31] <Hixie> is it still as distracting?
  362. # [13:33] <Lachy> that's much better. I like how the floating status box doesn't overlap any of the non-floating status boxes any more
  363. # [13:33] <Lachy> except, I still don't like how they're overlapping the edge of the green element description boxes.
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  365. # [13:35] <Hixie> yeah the green thing is next
  366. # [13:35] <yecril71> events in 1923 are already covered, and table of Roman emperors is Wikipedia-specific.
  367. # [13:36] <Lachy> eek, resizing my browser now with the spec open makes it hang for about 10 seconds
  368. # [13:36] <Lachy> not sure if that's anything to do with the scripts or just the size of it
  369. # [13:37] * yecril71 has to wait about 90 sec until he can click out to multipage
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  371. # [13:41] <Hixie> Lachy: calculations for resizing are deferred until 500ms after you stop resizing, so it shouldn't be the script
  372. # [13:41] <Hixie> yecril71: use http://whatwg.org/html5 as the direct link
  373. # [13:42] <yecril71> Tell it to W3C.
  374. # [13:42] <Hixie> ?
  375. # [13:42] <Hixie> what's the w3c got to do with it
  376. # [13:42] <yecril71> The spec stored at W3C, in its status section, refers to the single page document.
  377. # [13:43] <Hixie> so don't read the w3c one :-) it's always going to be slightly more out of date anyway
  378. # [13:43] <yecril71> I dont.
  379. # [13:44] <yecril71> Just the click path for W3C users goes through single-page.
  380. # [13:44] <Lachy> so?
  381. # [13:44] <Hixie> i thought you said YOU had to wait 90 seconds
  382. # [13:44] <yecril71> So,
  383. # [13:45] <yecril71> Me and the handicapped 60% of the world.
  384. # [13:45] <Lachy> wtf?
  385. # [13:45] <yecril71> The people using MSIE.
  386. # [13:45] <rubys> lol
  387. # [13:45] <Lachy> yecril71, just load the single or multipage version directly. Don't even try using IE to read teh sepc
  388. # [13:45] <Lachy> *the spec
  389. # [13:46] <Hixie> yecril71: i thought you said you didn't read the w3c version.
  390. # [13:46] <yecril71> I do not.
  391. # [13:46] <Hixie> so why do you have to wait 90 seconds?
  392. # [13:46] <yecril71> For the WHATWG version to become clickable.
  393. # [13:47] <Lachy> Hixie, the floating status box doesn't seem to be working in Opera
  394. # [13:47] <Hixie> yecril71: why do you go through the single page version?
  395. # [13:47] <yecril71> Because this is what the W3C version advises to use.
  396. # [13:48] <yecril71> I am trying to show you the experience of a first-time surfer.
  397. # [13:48] <Hixie> ok, i am hereby giving you better advice: use http://whatwg.org/html5
  398. # [13:48] <Lachy> wtf? Why does the W3C version matter if you're not looking at it?
  399. # [13:48] <yecril71> Give that advice to W3C.
  400. # [13:48] <yecril71> The W3C version matters because it can be used to go to WHATWG.
  401. # [13:49] <yecril71> And the W3C version matters because it is stored in the central repository
  402. # [13:49] <yecril71> for Web technology documents.
  403. # [13:49] <Hixie> i should stick some google analytics into the spec and see what browsers people really use on the spec
  404. # [13:49] <Hixie> yecril71: ok, i've updated the link
  405. # [13:49] <yecril71> Thx
  406. # [13:53] <hsivonen> whoa! IE8 behavior in cases where I expected foster parenting surprises me
  407. # [13:53] <Lachy> Hixie, I can't figure out why the status box isn't showing in Opera. there doesn't seem to be any script errors and the CSS looks fine
  408. # [13:53] <jgraham> Hixie: The load time of the spec is already abysmal without adding in google-cruft
  409. # [13:53] <hsivonen> apparently the IE8 mode does not foster parent
  410. # [13:53] <hsivonen> neither in the DOM nor in the CSS box tree
  411. # [13:54] <Hixie> it creates fake captions
  412. # [13:54] <Hixie> whose tagname is ''
  413. # [13:54] <Hixie> iirc
  414. # [13:54] <Lachy> Hixie, doesn't the Dreamhost panel give you sufficient statistics to get a rough idea, without using google analyitics?
  415. # [13:54] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah that's the main reason i haven't added anything
  416. # [13:54] <Hixie> Lachy: that doesn't give me the numbers of the w3c copy
  417. # [13:55] <hsivonen> and Opera is visually compatible with the IE 5.5 mode
  418. # [13:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: this whole tainting business seems less and less useful
  419. # [13:55] <yecril71> The copy at W3C is readable.
  420. # [13:55] <yecril71> The problem with it is that it is not the latest, of course.
  421. # [13:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: oh?
  422. # [13:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'll send email
  423. # [13:56] <Hixie> k
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  425. # [13:59] <Hixie> Lachy: i don't know either. it works in firefox and safari, no error messages in opera.
  426. # [13:59] <Hixie> the editing also seems to not work
  427. # [14:00] <Hixie> in fact clicking anywhere doesn't seem to work
  428. # [14:00] <Hixie> wtf
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  433. # [14:21] <Hixie> Lachy: well the boxes no longer overlap the element green boxes anymore... technically...
  434. # [14:22] <Hixie> i'm actually mildly impressed with myself for the currently look
  435. # [14:22] <Hixie> not because it looks particularly cool
  436. # [14:22] <Hixie> but because it's non-trivial to get that effect using css :-)
  437. # [14:22] <Hixie> or rather, non-obvious
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  441. # [14:26] <Hixie> holy crap, it even worked as is in opera and firefox without my having to do anything
  442. # [14:26] <Hixie> go standards!
  443. # [14:26] <Hixie> (i developed it in webkit)
  444. # [14:28] <jgraham> Hixie: The status blox blinking in and out of slight is really quite annoying.
  445. # [14:28] <jgraham> *box
  446. # [14:28] <rubys> slight? <grin>
  447. # [14:29] <jgraham> :p
  448. # [14:31] <Hixie> aw man, y'all are hard to please
  449. # [14:31] <Hixie> lachy said it was annoying when it stayed there
  450. # [14:32] <jgraham> Hixie: Would it fade in and out if I found a CSS transitions capable browser?
  451. # [14:32] <Hixie> yeah
  452. # [14:32] <Hixie> i assume you have firefox
  453. # [14:32] <Hixie> in opera it doesn't appear at all for some reason
  454. # [14:32] <jgraham> Oh well I guess I could do that then
  455. # [14:32] <Lachy> Hixie, have you seen how it looks in Firefox now? It looks broken
  456. # [14:33] <Hixie> Lachy: does it look different than other browsers?
  457. # [14:33] <rubys> Just so I understand what we are talking about, we are talking about the box on the left in places such as here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/dom.html#sectioning-content
  458. # [14:33] <Hixie> Lachy: i didn't say it was pretty...
  459. # [14:33] <Hixie> rubys: yeah, though it now stays on the left wherever you are
  460. # [14:33] <Lachy> I think WebKit showed the effect you were trying to achieve, with the heading sticking out to the left a little
  461. # [14:34] * Hixie looks at firefox again
  462. # [14:34] <Hixie> my gecko trunk build shows it exactly almost pixel for pixel like my webkit trunk build
  463. # [14:34] <Hixie> are you using some old version of firefox?
  464. # [14:34] <Lachy> Firefox 3 is broken
  465. # [14:34] <Hixie> oh well yes, firefox 3 is ancient
  466. # [14:34] <Hixie> doesn't have abs pos generated content
  467. # [14:35] <Hixie> i suppose you're going to say i should support the latest official release huh
  468. # [14:35] <Lachy> well, I don't like using an unstable browser for general use
  469. # [14:35] <Hixie> ff3 is far less stable than ff trunk imho :-)
  470. # [14:35] <Lachy> although, it's probably stable enough to start using minefield now
  471. # [14:35] <rubys> I found that confusing for other reasons. The implementation status is vacant, though if I view the screen from a rather oblique angle I can see that there are supposed to be icons there. The links (e.g. zcorpan) say not implemented, and I have no idea what the triangle at the bottom means.
  472. # [14:36] <rubys> Of course, it could be that the problem is that I'm using FF 3.0.6.
  473. # [14:36] <Hixie> rubys: the triangle at the bottom means your browser doesn't support positioned generated content (probably, like lachy, an old firefox build like ff3)
  474. # [14:36] <Hixie> rubys: the icons being not visible means the browsers don't implement the feature
  475. # [14:37] <Hixie> rubys: and the links with the people's names give the names of the last person to edit the data, and the link is supposed to show the history, but i haven't implemented that yet
  476. # [14:37] <Hixie> i guess i can make them not links for now
  477. # [14:37] <Lachy> In Opera, it looks a little better than FF3, but not quite as good as WebKit
  478. # [14:37] <rubys> to me, an icon with a red x over it would be clearer... I don't know how to interpret a vacant area
  479. # [14:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: to amend my email: as far as I can tell, the only case where taint helps is foo<!-- --> <!-- -->bar which isn't exactly the most important concern
  480. # [14:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: taint was intended to help <table> <tr> <td> vs <table>x y<tr>x y<td>
  481. # [14:38] <rubys> Any thoughts on what more could be done to prevent h3's in footers?
  482. # [14:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: the WebKit solution addresses that case
  483. # [14:38] <Lachy> Hixie, why don't you lost the fancy border and return to having a straight edge that was there before?
  484. # [14:39] <Hixie> Lachy: because then it would overlap the box like you didn't like
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  486. # [14:39] <Hixie> rubys: not sure how to render a red cross using css
  487. # [14:39] <Lachy> can't you just indent the whole thing?
  488. # [14:39] <Lachy> why does the heading need to be indented less than the rest?
  489. # [14:39] <Hixie> Lachy: i can't indent the <h4> because i don't have :matches() in selectors
  490. # [14:40] <Hixie> Lachy: the class="element" element comes after the heading
  491. # [14:40] <Lachy> oh, ok. either I have to put up with overlapping or a wonky edge?!
  492. # [14:42] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@217.39.2.13)
  493. # [14:43] <Lachy> Hixie, the other alternative is to make the status boxes slightly narrower instead
  494. # [14:44] <Lachy> although, perhaps that depends on the width of the icons inside them
  495. # [14:44] <Lachy> hmm. I will think about it and find a solution later
  496. # [14:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: at the cost of preventing incremental text, yeah. that was an invariant i was trying not to violate. but i guess maybe we should violate it.
  497. # [14:46] <jgraham> rubys: Of course we can't break apple.com so we have probably already lost that battle...
  498. # [14:47] <Hixie> Lachy: i can't make them narrower now that we have five icons without making them disproportionally tall
  499. # [14:47] <Hixie> Lachy: and making the margin wider, the other option, is something i'd rather avoid
  500. # [14:47] <Hixie> holy crap, even IE8 renders the wonky borders correctly
  501. # [14:47] <Hixie> go standards indeed
  502. # [14:48] <Hixie> IE8 actually handles the spec pretty well compared to earlier versions
  503. # [14:48] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@217.39.2.13)
  504. # [14:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think it's ok to violate the incremental text assumption when the element on the stack is table, thead, tbody, tfoot or tr
  505. # [14:50] <hsivonen> at least for now, I'm not doing incremental text at all
  506. # [14:50] <Hixie> hm i guess i could buy that
  507. # [14:50] <Hixie> Lachy: these wonky borders are kinda growing on me
  508. # [14:51] <Lachy> loading the spec in IE8 is an extremely painful process
  509. # [14:51] <Hixie> really? wasn't that bad for me
  510. # [14:51] <Lachy> it's so slow and unresponsive
  511. # [14:51] <Hixie> and i'm in a low-memory VM
  512. # [14:51] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  513. # [14:51] <Lachy> I always find IE slow and unresponsive on every machine I use it on, so it's not really a surprise
  514. # [14:57] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  515. # [14:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: Your public-html mail confuses Gmail's content-sensitive ads
  516. # [14:59] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  517. # [15:00] <Philip`> "World's First Surrogacy Agency Helping make babies since 1979"
  518. # [15:00] <rubys> jgraham: do we have anybody here who works at apple? :-) I don't presume that apple.com is unchanging...
  519. # [15:00] <Philip`> "Shampooing a Toddler can be Tough. Lil'Rinser The Hair Washing Helper"
  520. # [15:01] <rubys> Philip`: another success story for NLP! <ducks>
  521. # [15:02] <Lachy> Philip`, I'm surprised you don't have an ad blocker enabled so you don't see google's ads.
  522. # [15:03] * Lachy can't handle using the web without an ad blocker these days. The number of ads everywhere is just too much
  523. # [15:03] <hsivonen> Philip`: Natural Language Processing FTW
  524. # [15:04] <Philip`> Lachy: I use Opera's content blocker thing, and I think I do block Google ads (because there was an incredibly irritating giant orange one on the MySQL site), but it doesn't work on Gmail
  525. # [15:04] <Lachy> really? Why not?
  526. # [15:05] <Philip`> Probably because they're not served the same way as normal Google ads
  527. # [15:05] * rubys finds ThunderBird to be pleasantly ad-free
  528. # [15:05] * Philip` uses Thunderbird too, but prefers Gmail's web interface for mailing lists
  529. # [15:06] <Lachy> hmm, interesting. Opera's content blocker isn't blocking it for me either, but the AdBlock Firefox plugin does. I must have some differences between my filter lists
  530. # [15:07] * Philip` doesn't mind since the ones on Gmail are unintrusive
  531. # [15:07] <rubys> apparently not :-P
  532. # [15:08] <Philip`> Well, they're not completely invisible, and sometimes I look over in that direction to see how amusingly wrong it is :-)
  533. # [15:08] <Philip`> but they don't distract me when I'm trying to read mail
  534. # [15:09] <rubys> I also use gmail for other mailing lists (ASF), but for some reason not this one (yet).
  535. # [15:10] <rubys> I'm just pleased that I was finally able to stop using my employer provided email address on the W3C list.
  536. # [15:10] * Philip` also blocks Flash ads as a side-effect of not having worked out how to make the Flash plugin work in Opera
  537. # [15:11] * hsivonen hopes the inevitable canvas and SVG ads will be less annoying thanks to native integration with the browser event loop
  538. # [15:12] <Philip`> Don't forget <video>
  539. # [15:12] <Hixie> anyone know a css hack that targets firefox 3 but not ff trunk?
  540. # [15:12] <Philip`> I don't see why being integrated with the browser will make them less annoying - the content will be the same, and it's easy to make browsers go horribly slow when making them render animated stuff
  541. # [15:13] <Hixie> eh screw it, ff3.next will be out soon enough
  542. # [15:13] <Philip`> Hixie: <script>if(navigator.userAgent=='...')document.write('<style>...')</script>
  543. # [15:13] <Hixie> sadly this would have to be from within the css file
  544. # [15:13] <Hixie> i guess if people complain i'll add some script or something
  545. # [15:14] <Hixie> i'm going to bed now...
  546. # [15:14] <Hixie> nn
  547. # [15:14] <hsivonen> nn
  548. # [15:14] * Philip` complains
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  550. # [15:18] <Philip`> (...just out of principle, not any personal need)
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  556. # [15:37] <yecril71> Big red cross: <SPAN STYLE="FONT-SIZE: X-LARGE; COLOR: RED" >+</SPAN >
  557. # [15:37] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-eb944c5900b84744)
  558. # [15:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you have a test case that shows that ie8 doesn't do the foster-parent-emulation?
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  561. # [15:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: IIRC, <table>a<td>b</td>c</table>
  562. # [15:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: with <!doctype html>
  563. # [15:51] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i get a and c above b in live dom viewer
  564. # [15:52] * hsivonen reopens the VM
  565. # [15:52] <zcorpan> with "no name" elements as parents of a and c
  566. # [15:52] <zcorpan> (that are styled as captions)
  567. # [15:53] <hsivonen> saved as #19
  568. # [15:55] * zcorpan sees "b" and "d" captioned
  569. # [15:55] <zcorpan> i.e. rendering order is a b d c e
  570. # [15:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: regarding <style>, see my message in http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-March/014148.html
  571. # [15:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/screen/ie8-no-foster-parent.png
  572. # [15:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: weird
  573. # [15:57] * Philip` wonders if zcorpan has compatibility mode switched on
  574. # [15:58] <zcorpan> nope
  575. # [15:58] <Philip`> Oh, okay then
  576. # [15:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: this is the build that shipped with the public beta of Windows 7
  577. # [15:58] * Quits: grimboy (n=grimboy@78-86-152-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  578. # [15:58] <zcorpan> i have the rc1 build
  579. # [16:00] <zcorpan> i think the build that shipped with windows 7 was the partner preview build
  580. # [16:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i don't mind changing <table><style> parsing though
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  585. # [16:22] <yecril71> Philip`, do you have IE8 @hand?
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  588. # [16:26] <Philip`> yecril71: I don't
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  605. # [17:30] * Philip` notes in regards to Lachy_'s <![dD][oO][cC][tT][yY][pP][eE]\s+[hH][tT][mM][lL]\s*> complaint that the HTML5 spec itself said (until quite recently) "1) A U+003C LESS-THAN SIGN (<) character. 2) A U+0021 EXCLAMATION MARK (!) character. 3) A U+0044 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D or U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D character. ..."
  606. # [17:32] <Philip`> so at least the regexp is simpler than what the spec said (at least for people who understand regexps), which is admittedly a low bar but it's better than nothing :-)
  607. # [17:39] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  608. # [17:43] * syp is now known as syp_
  609. # [17:43] <Lachy_> Philip`, the spec doesn't purport to be optimised for web developers, unlike the markup spec
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  612. # [17:45] <Philip`> Lachy_: It does purport to be intended for them (among others)
  613. # [17:45] <Philip`> ("This specification is intended for authors of documents and scripts that use the features defined in this specificaton ...")
  614. # [17:46] * Philip` wonders if a specificaton is kind of like a megaton
  615. # [17:47] * Dashiva wonders if there exist specifications aren't intended for users of the specification
  616. # [17:47] <Philip`> Hixie: I don't care enough to send email, so if you don't miss this in the log then s/specificaton/specification/ in #audience
  617. # [17:49] <Philip`> Dashiva: How about e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/ which looks like it's intended for maybe tool authors and not for normal people?
  618. # [17:50] <Philip`> (and the user-friendly stuff is split into a separate document which is not part of the specification)
  619. # [17:50] <syp> Hixie: I'm getting the unresponsive dialog script with Firefox 3.1/3.2 on the html5 spec. in status.js, findStatusByPosition the (high-low > 0) condition is never false.
  620. # [17:51] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  621. # [17:56] <Dashiva> Philip`: Different use of 'uses' then
  622. # [17:58] <Philip`> Dashiva: I assume you meant to user the term 'users'?
  623. # [18:00] <Dashiva> I had already rephrased the question in my head, but the sentence never reached my fingers
  624. # [18:03] <Philip`> You should type with your nose instead
  625. # [18:03] <Philip`> Much less distance for the nerve signals to travel
  626. # [18:03] <Philip`> and correspondingly less chance of them getting lost in transit
  627. # [18:05] <jgraham> I am slightly freaked out by the fact that I made a post to public-html on @summary and no one has replied within 24 hours.
  628. # [18:07] <jgraham> I am assuming that the reason was not that my arguments had a undeniable brilliance and so could not be refuted
  629. # [18:07] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  630. # [18:07] <virtuelv> html turns adult this year
  631. # [18:07] <virtuelv> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-talk/1991SepOct/0003.html
  632. # [18:08] <Philip`> You can't really expect every post to get a reply - it's like a pyramid scheme, and someone has to get stuck at the leaf nodes
  633. # [18:08] <jgraham> Philip`: You can reply to multiple posts at the same time so preventing the exponential growth
  634. # [18:08] <jcranmer> Philip`: I take it you've never seen newsgroup threads?
  635. # [18:08] <Philip`> (I know pyramids don't have leaves but I don't know the term for the blocks you put at the very bottom of a pyramid :-( )
  636. # [18:09] <jcranmer> cornerstones?
  637. # [18:09] <jcranmer> one sci.math thread is up past 1.5K messages
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  639. # [18:09] <Philip`> I would tend to assume that cornerstones are at corners
  640. # [18:10] <Philip`> and pyramids only have four corners at the bottom
  641. # [18:10] <Philip`> which is hardly exponential
  642. # [18:10] <jcranmer> it's a fractal pyramid :-)
  643. # [18:10] * Philip` tries to visualise it
  644. # [18:10] * Philip` fails
  645. # [18:11] <jcranmer> Sierpinski (sp?) Pyramid!
  646. # [18:11] <gsnedders> virtuelv: TimBL said at TPAC that it was 18 and a half then
  647. # [18:11] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/apng/sierpinski.png
  648. # [18:11] <Philip`> Someone needs to make a 3D version of APNG
  649. # [18:11] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  650. # [18:12] <gsnedders> Philip`: A3DPNG?
  651. # [18:12] * zcorpan_ is glad that the xml core wg seem to be opposed to normalization checking in xml
  652. # [18:12] <virtuelv> gsnedders: I'm counting public mention, not inception
  653. # [18:12] <gsnedders> virtuelv: hehe
  654. # [18:13] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-43-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  655. # [18:13] <gsnedders> I did feel rather inappropriate sitting beside timbl when he mentioned that in the HTML WG/TAG joint meeting at TPAC
  656. # [18:13] <jcranmer> bah, display doesn't like APNG
  657. # [18:14] * jgraham suggests that HTML might follow wizarding rules and come of age at 17 rather than muggle's rules of 18
  658. # [18:14] * gsnedders suggests that HTML might follow Scottish law and come of age at 16
  659. # [18:15] <Philip`> jcranmer: There's this neat image display tool called Firefox that might work better
  660. # [18:15] * gsnedders tries to come up with a reason for it to be Scottish
  661. # [18:15] <jcranmer> Philip`: not for 24K×12K images!
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  677. # [18:48] <gsnedders> Is there any easy way to get a graphic RDF graph?
  678. # [18:48] <gsnedders> (from RDF/XML?)
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  681. # [18:49] <Philip`> gsnedders: Dump the triples into Graphviz .dot format?
  682. # [18:50] <gsnedders> Philip`: I don't want to write code that does that
  683. # [18:50] <jgraham> gsnedders: Surely someone already wriote code to do that?
  684. # [18:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: Where?
  685. # [18:50] <Philip`> gsnedders: Isn't it, like, a single print statement?
  686. # [18:50] <Philip`> in a loop
  687. # [18:51] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/2001/11/IsaViz/
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  689. # [18:52] <jgraham> http://librdf.org/raptor/
  690. # [18:53] * Parts: yael (i=c0647cdb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-abb714478e4ab9e2)
  691. # [18:55] <jgraham> http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/frodo/RDFSViz/
  692. # [18:56] * jgraham was coping for adulation for his ability to use Google
  693. # [18:56] <jgraham> hoping
  694. # [18:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: thx
  695. # [18:59] * gsnedders blatantly doesn't know what to search for
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  698. # [19:13] <gsnedders> Wow. Most of these suck for any large graph.
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  711. # [19:39] <gsnedders> RDF and Sparkle are crazy.
  712. # [19:40] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  713. # [19:41] <gsnedders> s/Sparkle/SPARQL/
  714. # [19:41] * gsnedders is having thought -> audio -> text loop failing him
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  719. # [19:56] <yecril71> Dashiva! OpenXML is a specification that is not intended for anyone to use.
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  723. # [20:09] <zcorpan_> jgraham: does html5lib's sanitizer make things safe for browsers that do a reparse in comments or (r)cdata elements?
  724. # [20:09] <zcorpan_> jgraham: or title=``onclick=doEvil()
  725. # [20:09] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-246.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  726. # [20:10] <zcorpan_> (hmm equals sign is not allowed in unquoted attributes)
  727. # [20:11] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: Due to it being serialized the output will include --> even if the input doesn't
  728. # [20:11] <gsnedders> Likewise with (R)CDATA
  729. # [20:12] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: yes but the server could still be DoS-attacked causing an early EOF
  730. # [20:12] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  731. # [20:12] <gsnedders> Then none of those three things is safe
  732. # [20:12] <zcorpan_> which is the third thing you're referring to?
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  789. # [22:48] <sicking> Hixie, ping
  790. # [22:49] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) ("going back to danbri.org")
  791. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Oh noes, it's sicking
  792. # [22:49] * gsnedders hides
  793. # [22:50] * sicking slaps gsnedders with a wet salmon
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  795. # [22:51] * gsnedders grabs the salmon, cooks it, eats it, and thanks sicking for his supper
  796. # [22:51] <sicking> enjoy :)
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  800. # [23:29] <Hixie> sicking: here
  801. # [23:31] <sicking> Hixie, so i had a brief talk with Sam about the svg-in-html situation when he was here (a few weeks ago)
  802. # [23:31] <sicking> and so I had some feedback. However I don't really know what the status of the whole sitation is
  803. # [23:32] <sicking> don't want to start a war if i can avoid it
  804. # [23:32] <Hixie> the status is that there's a commented out bit that is getting implemented by some people, and the svg wg is supposed to send feedback on what their requirements are, either commenting on the commented out proposal, or suggesting a new one
  805. # [23:33] <heycam> we are going to be sending comments based on the commented out version
  806. # [23:33] <Hixie> they did suggest some proposal at one point but it had issues that i commentd on
  807. # [23:33] <heycam> that should be sent to the HTML WG within a week, at a guess
  808. # [23:33] <Hixie> cool
  809. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Is the SVG WG list member only?
  810. # [23:34] <heycam> gsnedders, nope
  811. # [23:34] <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/
  812. # [23:34] <Hixie> syp: yt?
  813. # [23:34] * gsnedders wonders whether he should subscribe, knowing he already has way too many subscriptions
  814. # [23:34] <heycam> :)
  815. # [23:34] <syp> Hixie: yes
  816. # [23:34] <Hixie> syp: you still getting that slow script dialog?
  817. # [23:35] <heycam> gsnedders, in fact i am not sure if it is possible for non-WG members to subscribe to it
  818. # [23:35] <sicking> Hixie, cool, i'll wait for the svg group to comment first then
  819. # [23:35] * heycam tries, from a different email address
  820. # [23:35] <gsnedders> heycam: Yeah, I just noticed that
  821. # [23:35] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  822. # [23:36] <syp> Hixie: yes
  823. # [23:36] <syp> Hixie: did you change something?
  824. # [23:37] * syp clears cache
  825. # [23:37] <Hixie> syp: no... but i can't work out why you're seeing it
  826. # [23:37] <heycam> hmm, no response to sending mail to public-svg-wg-request
  827. # [23:37] <Hixie> syp: do you have a slow pc?
  828. # [23:38] <syp> no, pretty fast (on Linux). I could reproduce it on Windows with Firefox 3.1
  829. # [23:45] <syp> Hixie: it happens after the document is loaded and you try to scroll somewhere.
  830. # [23:47] <Hixie> maybe it's a ff3.1 bug fixed on trunk?
  831. # [23:48] * syp tries trunk
  832. # [23:49] <syp> yeah maybe, it works there.
  833. # [23:50] <Hixie> ok weird
  834. # [23:50] <Hixie> wtf did i use that's ff3.1 only!
  835. # [23:51] <Hixie> ok my vm has ff2, let's see how it handles it
  836. # [23:51] <syp> I thought about some floating point behavior that changed with the new js engine.
  837. # [23:51] <Hixie> no problem in ff2 even
  838. # [23:51] <Hixie> must be something like that yeah
  839. # [23:52] <Hixie> while i'm there let me fix the styling issues in ff2
  840. # [23:56] <syp> hm, works with 3.1 nightly. So it should be fixed on the next beta3.
  841. # Session Close: Thu Feb 26 00:00:00 2009

The end :)