/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 15 00:00:01 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:07] <scherkus> silly question, but I've never thought about it before
  6. # [00:07] <scherkus> is there anywhere in the spec that says _not_ to apply default styles to an element?
  7. # [00:07] <scherkus> someone was wondering if <video> could have border: 1px solid black; applied by default
  8. # [00:08] <gsnedders> It could. The spec says nothing normatively about rendering.
  9. # [00:09] <scherkus> I suppose it's one of those "user agents reach consensus" sort of thing
  10. # [00:10] <gsnedders> The informative advice in the spec for video is…
  11. # [00:10] * gsnedders looks
  12. # [00:11] <gsnedders> video {}
  13. # [00:11] <gsnedders> So no style :P
  14. # [00:11] <scherkus> :P
  15. # [00:11] <scherkus> where is that btw?
  16. # [00:12] <scherkus> ...or are you referring to how nothing is mentioned at all :)
  17. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Nothing is mentioned, so implicitly that is what the rendering section says for it :)
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  21. # [00:32] <jacobolus> http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/video.php?v=crockford-json
  22. # [00:32] <jacobolus> skip to 40 minutes
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  24. # [00:32] <jacobolus> that ~3 min of the talk made my day, a couple weeks ago
  25. # [00:39] <Xanthir> Bwahahaha
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  28. # [00:50] <Philip`> jacobolus: Do you have a transcript of that?
  29. # [00:50] <Philip`> (or a summary)
  30. # [00:50] * Philip` is currently incapable of viewing video
  31. # [00:51] <jacobolus> Philip`: scroll down
  32. # [00:51] <jacobolus> Philip`: search for "needed to put a software license"
  33. # [00:51] <Philip`> jacobolus: Oh, okay, I didn't actually open the link
  34. # [00:51] <jacobolus> and read the next few ¶s
  35. # [00:52] <jacobolus> I'm the "Audience member" in the transcript; my shouted question is inaudible in the video ;)
  36. # [00:56] <inimino> haha
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  38. # [01:04] <Hixie> annevk42: why does XHR use Origin and not Sec-From? What's the difference?
  39. # [01:04] <Hixie> (trying to work out which websocket should use)
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  42. # [01:09] * Hixie blinks at the teleconference recordings discussion
  43. # [01:18] <othermaciej> trying to prevent information from being shared at all on accessibility grounds is the sort of thing that gives accessibility people a bad reputation
  44. # [01:20] <hober> indeed
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  46. # [01:21] <Hixie> i'm very confused, to be honest
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  49. # [01:21] <Hixie> we have textual transcripts of the calls. Someone offers to provide audio recordings to make the group even more transparent.
  50. # [01:21] <Hixie> This is faced with the following responses:
  51. # [01:21] <Hixie> - the w3c doesn't have the resources to do it
  52. # [01:21] <Hixie> - it makes people feel uncomfortable
  53. # [01:21] <Hixie> - there might be legal implications
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  55. # [01:22] <Hixie> - it would be unfair to people to have the audio recordings but not have equally good transcripts, and so we shouldn't do it at all
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  57. # [01:23] <Hixie> this is like the _definition_ of "stop energy".
  58. # [01:25] <othermaciej> well, I can understand people being uncomfortable with being recorded, but I think as a public working group, our mandate for maximum public information sharing should take precedence
  59. # [01:29] <Hixie> the entire reaction just baffles me
  60. # [01:29] <Hixie> a healthy environment would have been one in which people just said "sounds great! go for it!"
  61. # [01:30] <Philip`> In the same healthy environment, could someone propose a terrible idea and then people would say "sounds great! go for it!"?
  62. # [01:30] <Hixie> dunno, give it a try
  63. # [01:31] <Hixie> (btw, the irony of people complaining that a transcript isn't available when we have minutes is not lost on me)
  64. # [01:35] <othermaciej> the scribes should take offense
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  120. # [08:19] <hsivonen> wow. Crockford seems unrepentent for wasting people's time by getting lawyers review an instance of gratuitous license proliferation
  121. # [08:28] <annevk42> Hixie, I hope Sec-From is renamed to Origin once we sort out how redirects have to work for CORS
  122. # [08:29] <annevk42> Hixie, that was the idea anyway as I understood things
  123. # [08:40] <annevk42> Lachy, many about URLs also take a fragment identifier
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  126. # [08:54] <othermaciej> hsivonen: eh?
  127. # [09:04] <annevk42> othermaciej, Crockford uses the MIT license with "Don't use it for evil." appended to it
  128. # [09:04] <annevk42> othermaciej, when e.g. IBM lawyers ask for a different license if they want to use his code he gives them "IBM can use it for evil." and everyone is happy...
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  130. # [09:07] <othermaciej> annevk42: wheee
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  133. # [09:13] <annevk42> Lachy, emailed comments instead
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  136. # [09:24] <hsivonen> annevk42: everyone is not happy. I, for instance, have sought alternatives to Crockford's software to avoid using code under an unusual license with a FOU restriction that lacks clear definitions
  137. # [09:27] <othermaciej> the current poll has now officially received more total votes than any previous HTML WG poll
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  139. # [09:30] <hsivonen> annevk42: moreover, if you have been permitted to use code under a set of licenses (e.g. OSI-approved licenses) and someone has a different license, it sucks to have to go through some kind of approval procedure even if you believe Crockford's addition not to carry any legal weight
  140. # [09:30] <jacobolus> seriously?
  141. # [09:30] <jacobolus> eep
  142. # [09:31] <jacobolus> hsivonen: if you write to him, you could probably get a special license, like IBM :)
  143. # [09:31] <hsivonen> jacobolus: yes. custom licenses are not funny
  144. # [09:31] <jacobolus> I think it's pretty funny; but then, I don't have to worry about it
  145. # [09:31] <hsivonen> jacobolus: not good enough unless the custom license is the MIT license verbatim
  146. # [09:32] <jacobolus> I think it's likely he'd do it if you made the case
  147. # [09:33] <hsivonen> jacobolus: unlikely, when I decided not to waste my time trying, I already knew he hadn't fixed the license after having given a one-off license to IBM and having been criticized by an IBM employee for it
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  161. # [11:03] <vvv> What is "An absolute IRI "? A typo?
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  163. # [11:15] <Philip`> vvv: It's probably easiest to think of IRI as a complicated way of saying URL :-)
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  175. # [12:53] <Hixie> could someone explain to me why the minutes aren't an acceptable transcript of the meetings anymore?
  176. # [12:53] <Hixie> i'm somewhat shocked to discover that the information i've been relying on for the past god knows how many years has suddenly stopped being adequate
  177. # [12:54] <Philip`> Because it's generally impossible to work out what was said during the meeting based on the minutes
  178. # [12:54] <Hixie> but this only becomes a problem if we also provide an audio transcript?
  179. # [12:55] <Dashiva> See mark's talk from earlier
  180. # [12:55] <Dashiva> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090814#l-510
  181. # [12:55] <Lachy> Hixie, it's because providing the audio for those who can hear it is perceived as providing more information to such people, than is available to the deaf. Whereas with the minutes only, everyone is at an equal disadvantage
  182. # [12:56] <Hixie> why is it acceptable that people can actually call in then?
  183. # [12:56] <Hixie> surely currently people who can't call in are at a disadvantage too
  184. # [12:56] <Dashiva> But calls aren't on the web, so it's okay
  185. # [12:57] <Lachy> yes, they are, but accessibility guidelines aren't so extreme as to restrict the use of technology that is inherently inaccessible.
  186. # [12:57] <Dashiva> Also: http://twitter.com/diveintomark/status/3310162153
  187. # [12:57] <Hixie> this is some sort of special mode of thinking that i can't wrap my head around
  188. # [12:58] <Lachy> although, there are relay services that deaf people can use to make phone calls, and could in theory use that for the telcon
  189. # [12:58] <Hixie> there are other reasons to not be able to attend the calls
  190. # [12:58] <Hixie> like not having a phone, or being asleep
  191. # [12:58] <Hixie> (both of which affect me)
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  193. # [13:00] <Lachy> yeah, that's why we still do the important stuff asynchronously
  194. # [13:01] <Lachy> I personally find the telcons to be of questionable value, and usually choose not to attend. But there are some people who do find them valuable for whatever reason, and there's no reason to restrict them from doing that
  195. # [13:02] <Hixie> sure, just like there's no reason to restrict publication of audio recordings without transcripts
  196. # [13:02] <Hixie> but apparently that's not allowed these days
  197. # [13:03] <Hixie> someone should go tell the podcast industry, btw, that they're all displaying quite unacceptable behaviour
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  199. # [13:04] * Hixie calls "not it"
  200. # [13:05] <Lachy> some podcasters do publish transcripts
  201. # [13:06] <Hixie> i wonder if radio suddenly becomes unacceptable if they start broadcasting on the web, too
  202. # [13:07] <Philip`> Maybe it's like "You're not having any dessert until you've eaten your greens" where some authority is enforcing rules so that your incentives are aligned with wider benefits than the benefits you care about yourself
  203. # [13:07] <Lachy> wcag has guidelines about live broadcasts over the internet
  204. # [13:07] <Philip`> (where dessert is audio recordings, greens is transcripts, and your mother is the W3C)
  205. # [13:08] <Philip`> (I presume this is related to what Wikipedia says is the principal-agent problem)
  206. # [13:10] <Hixie> i don't think anyone in their sane mind would consider comparing listening to audio recordings of htmlwg telecons to my mother's deserts.
  207. # [13:10] <Hixie> but maybe my mother's deserts are just unusally good.
  208. # [13:13] <Lachy> the problem I see with the arugments about it on public-html is that the accessibility advocates are simply taking the moral high ground, rather than explaning what the actual value of a full text transcript will be in this case and evaluating the cost/benefit ratio
  209. # [13:15] <Lachy> and they're ignoring the issue that arguments from morality don't carry that much weight with pragmatists
  210. # [13:15] <Hixie> i am shocked that they would proffer such unnuanced arguments.
  211. # [13:16] <Philip`> I thought the point of accessibility was that it fails when you evaluate the cost/benefit ratio - if it didn't, everyone would make things accessible because it's good business sense, but they don't, and legislation is often needed to skew the ratio
  212. # [13:17] <Philip`> (Cost/benefit ratios aren't sufficient because they ignore unmeasurable benefits like respecting human rights)
  213. # [13:17] <Lachy> often, the problem is just that people fail to perceive the benefits of making things more accessible
  214. # [13:18] <Philip`> s/sufficient/a sufficient measure/
  215. # [13:19] <Hixie> the problem i have with the arguments is that we already have transcripts, and if the transcripts aren't good enough, then that should have been a problem already, and doesn't suddenly become a problem when someone volunteers to provide an additional format.
  216. # [13:20] <Hixie> that and the fact that it's one hell of a horrible way to run a community if you tell someone who volunteers to do something "sorry but that's not good enough"
  217. # [13:20] <Hixie> when someone volunteers to do something, the right response is "thank you" and "how can i help you"
  218. # [13:23] * Philip` volunteers to rob a bank
  219. # [13:23] * Philip` waits for someone to ask how they can help
  220. # [13:24] <Hixie> well i was assuming i was talking about people volunteering to do things that actually benefit, or at least affect, the community :-P
  221. # [13:25] <Philip`> I'll donate half the money to the members of the WHATWG and HTML WG
  222. # [13:25] <Hixie> sweet!
  223. # [13:25] <Hixie> how can i help?
  224. # [13:25] <jacobolus> Hixie: my mother always preferred the mountains to the desert
  225. # [13:26] <jacobolus> maybe transcripts are like an oasis?
  226. # [13:26] <Hixie> aw man, i hate that word. I always forget there's two "s"s because I pronounce it "dizurts"
  227. # [13:28] <Philip`> Hixie: I'd like a face mould so I can disguise myself as you with a latex mask
  228. # [13:28] <Philip`> (You shouldn't get in trouble because you'll have a great alibi, being in a different continent)
  229. # [13:28] <Hixie> wouldn't that be illegal for me to do
  230. # [13:28] <Philip`> Why would it?
  231. # [13:29] <Hixie> aiding and abetting, conspiracy to commit, you name it
  232. # [13:29] <Philip`> I can tell you it's for a fancy dress party, and you won't know any better
  233. # [13:29] <Hixie> luckily for me, i'm not so good with the masks
  234. # [13:29] <Hixie> now if you want some normative text...
  235. # [13:29] <jacobolus> wow, Hixie would be in great company if they start making latex masks of him. Nixon, Salinas, ...
  236. # [13:30] * Philip` was thinking more of Tom Cruise
  237. # [13:30] <Hixie> maybe i could send some people wearing masks of me to commitee meetings at TPAC
  238. # [13:30] <Hixie> that would save me a lot of time
  239. # [13:31] <jacobolus> Philip`: you should just wear one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Richard_Nixon_mask.jpg
  240. # [13:32] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon_mask - "A Richard Nixon mask is a mask with the features of Richard Nixon." - wow
  241. # [13:32] <jacobolus> no one ever said wikipedia wasn't pedantic
  242. # [13:40] <Lachy> Hixie, leaving pubdate in is silly because it's a bad solution to the problem, regardless of whether or not there's another existing way to solve the problem
  243. # [13:40] <Hixie> it's not _that_ bad a solution
  244. # [13:40] <Lachy> we shoud remove pubdate and then focus on finding a better solution, rather than doing it the other way
  245. # [13:41] <Lachy> it has all the problems of duplicated, hidden metadata
  246. # [13:41] <Lachy> how is that good in any way?
  247. # [13:41] <Hixie> the perfect is the enemy of the merely good enough. Or in this case, the good is the enemy of the barely ok, but still.
  248. # [13:41] <Hixie> duplicated hidden metadata is to be discouraged where possible, but dates in general are always hidden data
  249. # [13:41] <Hixie> even <time> hides the time
  250. # [13:41] <Hixie> it's not a black-and-white world
  251. # [13:42] <Hixie> and other assorted aphorisms
  252. # [13:42] * gsnedders sees grey, too
  253. # [13:42] <Hixie> (sorry, it's late and i've been watching too much west wing.)
  254. # [13:42] <Lachy> no, time annotates visible data with an unambiguous version
  255. # [13:42] <Hixie> that's duplication of information with a hidden copy
  256. # [13:42] <Lachy> anyway, I must go. i will respond to your e-mail later with improved arguments
  257. # [13:42] <Hixie> k :-)
  258. # [13:44] * gsnedders wonders what he was going to buy today… something he needed to buy, but keeps forgetting…
  259. # [13:44] <Philip`> Paperclips?
  260. # [13:45] <gsnedders> No.
  261. # [13:45] <Philip`> Salt?
  262. # [13:46] <gsnedders> No, but maybe it was pepper…
  263. # [13:46] <Philip`> Hmm, I'm all out of ideas
  264. # [13:47] * gsnedders needs to work out quite what he's doing this year
  265. # [13:57] <Dashiva> Hixie: Wouldn't <time rel=something> unambiguously link it to the article?
  266. # [13:57] <Hixie> <time> doesn't have a rel=""
  267. # [13:57] <Hixie> (rel="" is for links)
  268. # [13:58] <Dashiva> I know, but inventing an attribute that does the same (even or rel)
  269. # [13:58] <Hixie> i thought the problem was that we were using an attribute
  270. # [13:59] <Dashiva> That's part of it, another part is that it often duplicates the date
  271. # [14:00] <Hixie> adding an attribute that basically duplicates class="" but with special keywords seems a bit heavy-handed for this small use case
  272. # [14:00] <Hixie> but it might be the only solution that makes sense
  273. # [14:00] <Hixie> anyway, i really must sleep
  274. # [14:00] <Hixie> nn
  275. # [14:00] <Dashiva> Well, that's like pubdate duplicates time, isn't it?
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  280. # [14:11] <Dashiva> I'm surprised Sam says this working group [htmlwg] has a lot of communication problems, considering other WGs like PF are unable to communicate at all outside telcons
  281. # [14:11] <Dashiva> How far does the scale go?
  282. # [14:11] <Philip`> Maybe you are mistaking quantity of communication for quality
  283. # [14:13] <Dashiva> Communication that doesn't happen is the worst quality of all
  284. # [14:15] <Philip`> Worse than e.g. offensive communication that causes people to stay away and avoid communicating again in the future?
  285. # [14:17] <Dashiva> Yes, better to try and fail than never to try at all.
  286. # [14:18] <Dashiva> Besides, we know from experience that these people tell other people about staying away, so we'll find out about it.
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  305. # [19:23] * hsivonen tries to find Big Buck Bunny as VLC-compatible 1080p Dirac but fails
  306. # [19:24] <annevk42> http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/index.php/download/ ?
  307. # [19:24] <annevk42> oh, Dirac
  308. # [19:24] <annevk42> sorry
  309. # [19:25] <hsivonen> I'm intrested in comparing 1080p CPU loads between Dirac, Theora and H.264
  310. # [19:28] <annevk42> is Dirac still interesting once Google does the non-evil thing?
  311. # [19:28] <hsivonen> I don't know
  312. # [19:31] * Joins: archtech (n=sv@83.228.56.37)
  313. # [19:32] <annevk42> I still have a hard time seeing how not publishing data can be considered a good thing
  314. # [19:34] * Xanthir_sleep is now known as TJAtkins
  315. # [19:35] <hsivonen> I have a hard time understanding the absurdity of painting the HTML WG as an accessibility offender for suggesting publishing recordings of telecons when the telecon mode of communication is inaccessible before you hit the record button, and the HTML WG charter deliberately tries to downplay telecon and telecons are part of the traditional W3C/WAI communication culture
  316. # [19:38] <annevk42> it is indeed total crap
  317. # [20:01] <virtuelv> hsivonen: url?
  318. # [20:02] <virtuelv> annevk42: with regard to Google and on2?
  319. # [20:02] <virtuelv> I'm more worried about the shareholder lawsuit
  320. # [20:02] <hsivonen> virtuelv: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0764.html
  321. # [20:03] <hsivonen> virtuelv: is a shareholder lawsuit in a case like this something that may actually derail things or business as usual in the U.S.?
  322. # [20:06] <TJAtkins> They could always just trade the shareholders for GOOG shares. ^_^
  323. # [20:07] <hsivonen> TJAtkins: isn't the suit simply about some shareholder wanting more GOOG shares?
  324. # [20:07] <virtuelv> hsivonen: unknown
  325. # [20:07] <virtuelv> I would assume it's for the purpose of raising the final price
  326. # [20:08] <hsivonen> virtuelv: hence, more GOOG shares, since it's a stock swap
  327. # [20:08] <virtuelv> yeah
  328. # [20:08] <TJAtkins> Oh, buh, I'm dumb. Sorry, wasn't aware that there was an actual lawsuit going on *right now*.
  329. # [20:09] <TJAtkins> My impressions is that that sort of thing is business-as-usual here in the US, but it could always blow up.
  330. # [20:10] <annevk42> TJAtkins is Tab Atkins?
  331. # [20:10] <TJAtkins> yeah
  332. # [20:10] <annevk42> welcome
  333. # [20:10] <annevk42> (unless I missed something I haven't seen you here before)
  334. # [20:10] <TJAtkins> Yo. ^_^ I've been sitting around with a different name for a while, but figured it was more productive to use the name I'm known by.
  335. # [20:10] * TJAtkins is now known as TabAtkins
  336. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> Might as well take it all the way
  337. # [20:11] <annevk42> heh
  338. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> I've been trying to watch the chat more often lately, get a little more involved in WHATWG stuff.
  339. # [20:12] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  340. # [20:26] <annevk42> From that document Adam pointed out about cookie history (see http-state archives): ".3.1 Fixing the Incompatibility. Because the two extant major browsers dis-agreed on how to treat unfamiliar attributes, we were inexorably led to introduce one or more new headers to resolve the problem."
  341. # [20:26] <annevk42> I'm glad we're no longer doing that now and whenever someone proposes it we oppose it
  342. # [20:26] <annevk42> I hope one day someone writes a paper on writing "modern" standards...
  343. # [20:28] <virtuelv> I've read that transcript bit
  344. # [20:28] <virtuelv> I find the whole argument to be utterly bizarre
  345. # [20:28] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  346. # [20:29] <virtuelv> the choice is between making no data available, and making data available so that third-parties, if they so choose, can transcribe, and have 100% accuracy on what is being said
  347. # [20:29] <virtuelv> and some would prefer to see zero-data available
  348. # [20:30] <virtuelv> please tell me I misread these people
  349. # [20:30] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  350. # [20:33] <annevk42> sorry
  351. # [20:34] <annevk42> another interesting quote from that document: "RFC 2965, HTTP State Management Mechanism, took 5 1/2 years to become a Proposed Standard, and yet the major vendors largely ignore it"
  352. # [20:36] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  353. # [20:42] <hsivonen> interestingly, this guy doesn't focus on HTML5 and MPEG-LA issues: http://seekingalpha.com/article/154160-google-on2-deal-debunking-myths-questioning-vp8-s-quality
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  357. # [20:55] <hsivonen> what's a "four-screen strategy? desktop, phone, TV, ???
  358. # [20:56] <inimino> TV, desktop, laptop, phone
  359. # [20:56] <inimino> it's some marketing BS from some mobile phone company or other
  360. # [20:57] <hsivonen> hmmkay. What's the point of counting desktop and laptop as distinct?
  361. # [20:58] <inimino> mobility, leading up to the main point of our glorious cell-phone-enhanced future
  362. # [20:58] <hsivonen> ok. thanks
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  364. # [21:10] <gsnedders> Settlers' II is damned addictive.
  365. # [21:14] <Philip`> Isn't that like 15 years old?
  366. # [21:14] * Philip` remembers playing it like 15 years ago
  367. # [21:15] <TabAtkins> Hell, I'm still sort of addicted to Civ 2.
  368. # [21:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yes
  369. # [21:15] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Likewise.
  370. # [21:15] * gsnedders got both of them back in '97 or so
  371. # [21:16] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@adsl-75-36-149-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  372. # [21:16] <gsnedders> (Civ2 is probably my number one reason for booting Windows)
  373. # [21:16] <gsnedders> (And it saddens me it is 16-bit and doesn't run natively on 64-bit Windows)
  374. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> Heh, just virtualize it.
  375. # [21:17] <TabAtkins> You can run that thing on W95
  376. # [21:17] <gsnedders> Win 3.1, too, IIRC
  377. # [21:17] <gsnedders> S2 runs in DOSBox fine :P
  378. # [21:18] <inimino> hsivonen: I just remembered, it's actually cinema, TV, PC, phone
  379. # [21:18] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Find a copy of Master of Magic. DOSBoxes wonderfully, and it's a *great* game.
  380. # [21:19] * gsnedders wonders if he really needs more timewasters
  381. # [21:19] <TabAtkins> You do.
  382. # [21:20] <hsivonen> inimino: oh, I see. what codecs do digital cinema systems use?
  383. # [21:21] <inimino> the over-the-top Nokia marketing video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V-2qQS3NY0
  384. # [21:21] * Philip` likes http://www.gog.com/ since their installer automatically includes stuff like DOSBox to make things work
  385. # [21:22] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: My diary's already, uh, three months and a half months behind
  386. # [21:22] <TabAtkins> Simple solution: cut it loose!
  387. # [21:26] <hsivonen> inimino: i can see what nokia's marketing speak means, but codec strategy-wise, the cinema case seems different from the cases where the decoder is shipped to the viewer rather than to a theater
  388. # [21:26] <TabAtkins> Agreed - I'm not sure how the two necessarily have to be related.
  389. # [21:27] <hsivonen> maybe my strategy mindset isn't broad enough
  390. # [21:31] * gsnedders contemplates what to do
  391. # [21:36] <hsivonen> btw, why do people seem to assume that purchasing transcripts is an issue?
  392. # [21:37] <hsivonen> if the W3C has a policy requiring transripts, surely it would be sensible for the W3C to already have a mechanism for sending audio to a service provider and getting text back
  393. # [21:37] <hsivonen> does the policy exist withou such a mechanism in place? what's the issue here?
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  398. # [22:10] <hsivonen> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-ig-charter
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  405. # [22:31] <jacobolus> gsnedders: isn't settlers II too easy?
  406. # [22:31] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: and likewise Civ II?
  407. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Too easy? You're not playing it on a high enough difficulty.
  408. # [22:31] <gsnedders> jacobolus: No
  409. # [22:32] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Depends on the dificulty
  410. # [22:32] <jacobolus> I suppose at Deity level, it's a bit slow to finish a game
  411. # [22:32] <gsnedders> s/Tabtkins/jacobolus/
  412. # [22:32] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: the one city challenge is pretty tough, I guess
  413. # [22:32] <jacobolus> I never managed to do that one
  414. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> I've never been able to win a one-city challenge in Civ4 FfH...
  415. # [22:32] <jacobolus> but I didn't ever put too much time in on it
  416. # [22:33] <jacobolus> ffh?
  417. # [22:33] <jacobolus> Civ II was certainly harder than Civ III, to be sure
  418. # [22:34] <gsnedders> Civ2 IMO is the best of the Civ games
  419. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Fall From Heaven - the absolute best mod for civ4.
  420. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I'd agree for the vanilla game.
  421. # [22:35] <jacobolus> gsnedders: I was always a bit partial to SMAC
  422. # [22:35] <jacobolus> it's been quite a while though
  423. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> A mid-dev version of FfH is actually included in the Civ 4 release. The full version is better, though.
  424. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> Oh man, SMAC. I always forget to include that in the list of Civ games, because to me it was just "Alpha Centauri".
  425. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> So good...
  426. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> I just love SMAC's government system.
  427. # [22:39] <kristallpirat> Civ II very good, AC very good, Civ IV with Beyond the sword mod very good
  428. # [22:40] * gsnedders should play Civ IV more probably
  429. # [22:40] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  430. # [22:40] * gsnedders ought to get The Settlers II 10th Anniversary Edition too
  431. # [22:40] <gsnedders> (Basically Settlers II with 3D graphics)
  432. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> If I ever sat down to make a game, I'd reproduce Master of Magic with more modern graphics. And less bugs.
  433. # [22:41] * TabAtkins remembers when he had an invisible decaying lizardman/airship that couldn't transport cargo and was immune to damage.
  434. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> It had some... issues... with buffer overflows overwriting game data.
  435. # [22:45] <gsnedders> Oh well, back to S2 for me.
  436. # [22:45] <jacobolus> gsnedders: anyway, how do you make settlers II hard?
  437. # [22:46] <gsnedders> jacobolus: By being shit at it :)
  438. # [22:46] <jacobolus> haha
  439. # [22:46] <jacobolus> my advice: just expand using as many of the cheapest mil. buildings as you can, and lots of wood choppers
  440. # [22:46] <gsnedders> Huh?
  441. # [22:47] <jacobolus> huh what?
  442. # [22:47] * gsnedders thinks jacobolus is thinking of some other game
  443. # [22:47] <gsnedders> You don't buy mil. buildings
  444. # [22:47] <jacobolus> gsnedders: we're talking about the one with the little roads and people walking back and forth along them?
  445. # [22:47] <gsnedders> Or am I missing what you mean?
  446. # [22:47] <gsnedders> Just loads of barracks?
  447. # [22:47] <jacobolus> there are like 4 types of buildings
  448. # [22:47] <jacobolus> military buildings
  449. # [22:48] <jacobolus> you expand fastest if you buy only the cheapest ones
  450. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Yeah, right
  451. # [22:48] <jacobolus> and then destroy half of them afterward
  452. # [22:48] <jacobolus> if you're especially ambitious you can go replace them with very spaced out castles much later on
  453. # [22:48] <jacobolus> but that's not really necessary
  454. # [22:48] <jacobolus> then once you get close to enemies you build guardhouse thingums
  455. # [22:49] <jacobolus> er, watchtowers?
  456. # [22:51] <jacobolus> gsnedders: I imagine that playing settlers ii against humans is harder, but I never tried it
  457. # [22:52] * Quits: kristallpirat (n=kristall@c-base/crew/kristall) ("Wünsche weiterhin guten Flug")
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  462. # [23:11] <Philip`> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/rad/2009/08/html5.html
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  467. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Any browser dev have any clue if/when XBL2 will ever be supported in your browser?
  468. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> Wondering about it's use in styling new input types, and if I should instead go ahead and get some work going on the CSS list for them.
  469. # [23:35] <gsnedders> jacobolus: The difficulty is establishing yourself on another continent
  470. # [23:37] <jacobolus> gsnedders: any particular map that's tricky?
  471. # [23:37] <jacobolus> I only ever spent about two weeks playing settlers ii, and it was very long ago
  472. # [23:37] <jacobolus> but I have some hazy recollection of some of them
  473. # [23:39] <gsnedders> jacobolus: Just any that involves establishing yourself on another land mass
  474. # [23:39] <gsnedders> Primarily avoiding your first mil. building being overrun almost straight away
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  476. # [23:40] <jacobolus> oh, hmm. I think you might just have to go somewhere there's no enemy right next door
  477. # [23:40] <jacobolus> gsnedders: what if you build a big mil. building, so that a bunch of troops get shipped there?
  478. # [23:41] <gsnedders> jacobolus: There are maps where that isn't an option :)
  479. # [23:41] <gsnedders> jacobolus: I guess my issues then are normally not enough gold :)
  480. # [23:42] <jacobolus> gsnedders: the trick to that is to train as many of your troops as possible in big military buildings
  481. # [23:42] <jacobolus> it's much cheaper
  482. # [23:42] <jacobolus> the tiny ones are useless for training, and should have gold shipments turned off
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  486. # Session Close: Sun Aug 16 00:00:00 2009

The end :)