/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jan 03 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  17. # [01:14] <brandon> I am guessing this is several days late, but I ran into a limitation I wasn't expecting (assumed it was in the spec). The problem I am having is placing a background of rgba(0,0,0,.2) OVER a background image... but background colors are only allowed to be declared last (after all other images)... The only other solution (without adding more markup or changing the image itself) is to set a...
  18. # [01:14] <brandon> ...transparency to the background (with a background color of black)... Is there any way of getting something similar into the spec? Or is there something I'm missing?
  19. # [01:18] * brandon is now known as brandonFrohs
  20. # [01:19] * brandonFrohs is now known as bfrohs
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  25. # [01:58] <bfrohs> Anyone?
  26. # [02:01] <Lachy> bfrohs, yeah, be with you in a minute...
  27. # [02:01] <bfrohs> Thanks.
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  29. # [02:05] <Lachy> bfrohs, try using the ::before pseudo-element, which you can style and position on top of the element with the background image.
  30. # [02:05] <bfrohs> Very good idea, thanks. I'll let you know how it works out.
  31. # [02:06] <Lachy> here's a quick demo http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/338
  32. # [02:09] <bfrohs> Doesn't work with content inside the tag
  33. # [02:09] <bfrohs> Pushes it down - also doesn't work with liquid element
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  35. # [02:10] <bfrohs> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0Adiv%20{%20height%3A%2099px%3B%20width%3A%20200px%3B%20background%3A%20url%28image%29%20}%0Adiv%3A%3Abefore%20{%20display%3A%20block%3B%20height%3A%2099px%3B%20width%3A%20200px%3B%20background%3A%20rgba%280%2C0%2C255%2C.5%29%3B%20content%3A%20%22%22%20}%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Cdiv%3Ehai%3C%2Fdiv%3E
  36. # [02:10] * MikeSmithXX is now known as MikeSmith
  37. # [02:16] <Lachy> bfrohs, set position: absolute; on the ::before
  38. # [02:17] <bfrohs> I already did that, but it doesn't account for the fact that it doesn't work with liquid content
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  40. # [02:17] <bfrohs> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/339
  41. # [02:18] <bfrohs> Well, hold on.
  42. # [02:18] <bfrohs> Yeah, even with Overflow:hidden, it doesn't work
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  44. # [02:22] <Lachy> bfrohs, set position: relative; on the div, so that the absolute positioning on the ::before is contained within it
  45. # [02:24] <bfrohs> Setting position to relative hides the :before completely (with 100% width and height to account for fluid elements)
  46. # [02:25] <bfrohs> And it also pushes the content down when any other height is set (5em for example)
  47. # [02:26] <Lachy> huh?
  48. # [02:26] <Lachy> seems to work for me. But I'm not sure what exactly you're doing
  49. # [02:31] <bfrohs> Could you send me your file?
  50. # [02:32] <bfrohs> I may have just mistyped something.
  51. # [02:32] <Lachy> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0D%0Asection%20%7Bdisplay%3Ablock%3B%20background%3A%23f00%3B%7D%0D%0Adiv%20%7B%20background%3A%20url(image)%3B%20position%3A%20relative%3B%20%7D%0D%0Adiv%3A%3Abefore%20%7Bposition%3Aabsolute%3Bdisplay%3A%20block%3Bheight%3A100%25%3Bwidth%3A%20100%25%3B%20background%3A%20rgba(0%2C0%2C255%2C.5)%3B%20content%3A%20%22%22%20%7D%0D%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Csection%3E%
  52. # [02:32] <Lachy> 0D%0A%3Cdiv%3Exxx%0D%0A%3Cp%3Ehai%3Cp%3Ehai%3Cp%3Ehaifdsli%20fdsajfdkls%20ajflkdsj%20afldsja%20fldsjaflkds%20jflsdj%20afdsjlfdjsl%3Bfdjslfds%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3C%2Fsection%3E
  53. # [02:35] <bfrohs> You're a life saver! Thanks!
  54. # [02:35] <Dashiva> "A PublicIdentifier SHOULD NOT be used unless the content is being managed in a controlled environment where the intended version is known"
  55. # [02:36] <Dashiva> Isn't it sort of redundant to specify the version in the doctype if one of the premises is that the version is already known?
  56. # [02:38] <Lachy> bfrohs, be sure to use :before with one colon instead of two, if you want it to work in IE. Though, I'm not sure what other issues might crop up with it since I haven't tested it at all with what I did
  57. # [02:39] <bfrohs> Yeah, always do. And I'll be sure to test it, thanks Lachy.
  58. # [02:44] <bfrohs> Lachy, I've run into a problem with it. It applies the background (of the :before) on top of the text as well (hence why I'm using rgba vs opacity)
  59. # [02:51] <Lachy> oh, then I think the only solution would be to use 2 elements. One with the background image and the other on top with the background colour and text
  60. # [02:53] <Lachy> or, maybe not. one sec...
  61. # [02:54] <Lachy> bfrohs, set z-index: -1; and specify the background image on on ::before, and then specify the colour on the element. That will give you the correct layering of text, bg colour, bg image
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  64. # [03:03] <bfrohs> Doesn't work either. Only works if there isn't a parent with a declared background
  65. # [03:04] <bfrohs> Thanks though Lachy! I'll get ahold of the CSS wg
  66. # [03:28] <TabAtkins> bfrohs: It should still work, you'll just need to be more careful and explicit about z-ordering.
  67. # [03:28] <TabAtkins> Your problem is that the parent with the declared background is layering on top of the ::before
  68. # [03:35] <bfrohs> Yes, I know, but it's not just a signle element (nor a fixed size). It's built into a web application (programmed myself) that would have several elements (all at different depths in the DOM) with this class.
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  71. # [03:59] <TabAtkins> bfrohs: Ah, then you're in trouble. Obvious (though annoying) hack around this: a 1px partially-transparent image.
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  96. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the ABNF for the text content of the style element doesn't seem to allow <style><!--></style>
  97. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> but back in the "escaping text span" days, that was conformant
  98. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> is it intentional that it should be non-conformant now?
  99. # [07:18] <Hixie> it's non-conforming according to CSS anyway
  100. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> OK
  101. # [07:18] <Hixie> but off-hand i don't know if zcorpan (or hsivonen? i forget who came up with what the rules should be) wanted that to conform or not
  102. # [07:18] <Hixie> i don't see a use case for having it conforming though, so...
  103. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> OK, I'll ask them later if they have any cases
  104. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> was asking because I'm attempting right now to write a mechanism for validator.nu to check style contents, based on that ABNF
  105. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> if that were to be conforming, it'd mean adding an additional state
  106. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, why "c-start" and "c-end" ?
  107. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> what's the "c" for?
  108. # [07:21] * Hixie looks at what c-start is
  109. # [07:22] <Hixie> comment-start
  110. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> ah
  111. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> well, it's not a comment...
  112. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> it's more of an escape
  113. # [07:23] <Hixie> it's just an opaque string really
  114. # [07:23] <Hixie> the only thing in that ABNF that matters is "style"
  115. # [07:23] <Hixie> everything else is a spec implementation detail
  116. # [07:23] <Hixie> could be "a", "b", "c", etc
  117. # [07:25] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know.. was asking because I wanted to have state names that are less opaque
  118. # [07:25] <MikeSmith> so I'm using ESCAPE
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  127. # [08:26] <Hixie> mjs: "We follow a similar process for Safari, except that we don't usually test if a site works in Chrome first, since that rarely comes up"
  128. # [08:26] <Hixie> ooh, burn :-)
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  131. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> Hixie: is "<style><!-- </style --></style>" meant to be conformant?
  132. # [08:39] <Hixie> yes
  133. # [08:39] <Hixie> the only requirement is that each <!-- be followed by a --> before the end and before another <!--
  134. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> OK
  135. # [08:39] <Hixie> no even that's wrong
  136. # [08:40] <Hixie> the only requirement is that each <!-- be followed by a --> before the end
  137. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> OK
  138. # [08:40] <Hixie> (ignoring <!--s between a <!-- and a -->)
  139. # [08:40] <Hixie> it's hard to say in english
  140. # [08:40] <Hixie> hence the ABNF :-)
  141. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> yeah
  142. # [08:40] <Hixie> <style> is the one with the wacky rules
  143. # [08:40] <Hixie> er
  144. # [08:40] <Hixie> <script>
  145. # [08:40] <Hixie> i'm still on vacation. my brain will be turned on on monday. :_)
  146. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> heh
  147. # [08:41] <Hixie> good luck with implementing 4.3.1.2 and 4.3.1.3 at the same time btw
  148. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> well, I wonder if hsivonen might need to make change to his HTML parser
  149. # [08:41] <Hixie> (i.e. i hope you're doing it from code and not some schema language that only accepts one abnf per element)
  150. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> Hixie: doing it from a normal state machine
  151. # [08:42] <Hixie> well for <script> in certain cases you have to check it against two grammars
  152. # [08:42] <Hixie> and i ain't merging them
  153. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> heh, OK :)
  154. # [08:42] <Hixie> i had enough trouble writing them as it is :-P
  155. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> I will leave <script> for after <style>
  156. # [08:43] <Hixie> i think the reason i didn't call c-start "escape" is because i did the script one first and it already has an "escape", btw
  157. # [08:43] <Hixie> and a "comment"
  158. # [08:44] <Hixie> and i was trying to keep them vaguely off each other's toes
  159. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> ok, np .. I can see that for the spec it's not a problem for it to just be opaque
  160. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> had been just trying to decide on something meaningful to put in the code
  161. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> so, seems like hsivonen parser gets to "<style><!-- </style " and switches to before-attribute-name state
  162. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> or before that gets to tag-name state, I guess
  163. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> I guess I'll ask him about it when he gets back
  164. # [08:48] <Hixie> oh i didn't think of that
  165. # [08:48] <Hixie> yes, that sounds right
  166. # [08:48] <Hixie> sorry i was thinking about it from a DOM point of view
  167. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> oh
  168. # [08:48] <Hixie> and assuming that you meant a "style" element with "<!-- </style -->" as its only text node child
  169. # [08:49] <Hixie> the literal markup, even assuming it had a DOCTYPE and all, wouldn't be valid because "--" isn't a valid attribute and there's an unexpected </style>
  170. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> OK
  171. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> so the current parser behavior is right?
  172. # [08:51] <Hixie> it sounds right but what do i know
  173. # [08:51] <Hixie> i only work here
  174. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> heh
  175. # [08:51] <Hixie> ask me again in a few days if you want a more coherent answer :-)
  176. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> ok, sure
  177. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> OK, fwiw, what I have for <style> checking is live on http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/
  178. # [08:52] <Hixie> cool
  179. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, take a look at http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.w3.org%2Fhtml5%2Ftests%2Fvalidation%2Ffull%2Finvalid%2Fmissing-attributes%2Flink-missing-href.html&showsource=yes
  180. # [08:53] <Hixie> ooh, much nicer
  181. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> yeah, that one took some work
  182. # [08:54] <Hixie> i hope henri hides notes #1 and #2 from the default UI at some point
  183. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> I guess those don't bother me since I've just habituated to reading past them
  184. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> but I can see that for new users they might be not optimal
  185. # [08:55] <Hixie> well at some point i assume this will get some more serious UI review and testing... but that can wait until the backend is solid :-)
  186. # [08:55] <Hixie> i hope we get some competition for henri
  187. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> yeah, but he has set the bar pretty high
  188. # [08:56] <Hixie> this luvvy-duvvy w3c working with henri thing is ruining the plan for making validation into a tool rather than an authority
  189. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> heh
  190. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> btw, about that required-attributes reporting, whether it actually gets deployed will depend on if hsivonen thinks how I implemented it is sane
  191. # [08:57] <Hixie> heh
  192. # [08:57] <Hixie> bbiab, dinner
  193. # [08:57] <jtbandes> What language is used to implement the validator?
  194. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> ttyl
  195. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> jtbandes: a couple different things
  196. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> but basically Java
  197. # [08:58] <jtbandes> obligatory: ew java :P
  198. # [08:58] <jtbandes> Why java?
  199. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> for one thing, because the validator architecture is based on SAX, and Java has solid SAX support
  200. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> and for another thing, because of the abundance of useful libraries in Java
  201. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> but those are just my understanding
  202. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> if you want the real details, ask hsivonen
  203. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> jtbandes: or read his thesis
  204. # [09:00] * MikeSmith goes to find URL for hsivonen thesis
  205. # [09:00] <jtbandes> Hm
  206. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker.xhtml
  207. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> jtbandes: platform portability was another concern, I think
  208. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> Hixie: (when you get back) as far as 4.3.1.2 and 4.3.1.3, I think from the pov of the v.nu backend, those can be implemented as two different checkers (separate classes) .. so hopefully no need code-wise to merge handling of those
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  216. # [10:18] <hsivonen> jtbandes: see 3rd question under http://about.validator.nu/#faq
  217. # [10:20] <zcorpan> hmm, <style><!--> opens an escape in opera, so i don't mind it being invalid :)
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  219. # [10:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: I imagine it's only because Chrome hasn't been around long enough yet for sites to depend on its quirks - I expect it may start happening at some point
  220. # [10:31] <Hixie> oh i wasn't disagreeing with you :-)
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  222. # [10:50] <zcorpan> whatwg spec has dropped in google results for "html5"
  223. # [10:51] <zcorpan> probably due to the title change
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  230. # [11:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: what's the difference between a personal opinion of a chair and an official opinion of a chair? i'm confused.
  231. # [11:40] <annevk> maybe he thought you meant the position of the chairs
  232. # [11:40] <Hixie> ?
  233. # [11:40] <Hixie> as opposed to what?
  234. # [11:40] <annevk> his position
  235. # [11:41] <othermaciej> to use a particularly flame-baiting analogy, the pope does not always speak ex cathedra
  236. # [11:42] <othermaciej> in other words, I stand by my opinion, but I haven't even asked my co-chairs about it, let alone gotten their sign-off, so it's a little dicey to call it "guidance from the chairs"
  237. # [11:43] <Hixie> dude if every time i ask you a question you need to get two other people to sign off on it, our conversations aren't going to be very quick.
  238. # [11:43] <othermaciej> definitely not required every time
  239. # [11:43] <othermaciej> but I need space for posting purely personal opinions
  240. # [11:44] <othermaciej> otherwise I'll either end up posting much less, or make people mad for making improper official statements
  241. # [11:45] <othermaciej> in this case, no one asked me a question at all, I just provided my opinion unasked
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  244. # [11:47] <Hixie> man i miss the days where we didn't have to worry about having personal opinions vs official opinions vs charters and so forth and we could just worry about what we thought the right thing for the web was
  245. # [11:50] <othermaciej> in this case I wouldn't have worried about the difference if you hadn't cited what I meant to be "Maciej's opinion" as "guidance from the chairs"
  246. # [11:50] <othermaciej> that being said, I realize I took on that sort of hazard when I agreed to accept a political position
  247. # [11:51] <Hixie> i hadn't realised there was a difference, i assumed when one of the chairs gave guidance, it was guidance from the chairs :-)
  248. # [11:51] <othermaciej> that's like saying every time Joe Lieberman gives a speech, that's guidance from the US Senate
  249. # [11:52] <Hixie> yes
  250. # [11:52] <Hixie> which it is
  251. # [11:52] <hsivonen> seems more correct to refer to guidance from Maciej or guidance from Joe Lieberman
  252. # [11:53] <Hixie> certainly more precise, dunno about more correct
  253. # [11:53] <hsivonen> what I say here isn't guidance from Mozilla
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  255. # [11:56] <Hixie> what's the difference?
  256. # [11:56] <othermaciej> there are times when what I say is on behalf of some group or organization of which I am a member, but it certainly can't be on behalf of all of them every time
  257. # [11:57] <Hixie> i guess the difference is that i don't see input from a company or from a random person as being any different, but i see the chairs as having authority
  258. # [11:58] <nessy> so are all your opinions opinions of Google?
  259. # [11:58] <Hixie> google's employees have many opinions, all of which are often aired in public
  260. # [11:58] <Hixie> s/'s//
  261. # [11:59] <othermaciej> indeed, the chairs have authority, and many times when I speak I do not intend to wield the authority of the chairs
  262. # [11:59] <Hixie> nessy: but certainly google managers assume that everything we say reflects on google, i don't get to say "oh well i didn't mean that as a google employee"
  263. # [11:59] <othermaciej> whether it is realistic to expect that is another matter
  264. # [12:02] <annevk> I don't get Larry's real world... If it's his real world, surely he'd know the answer?
  265. # [12:02] <nessy> just being facetious - I we're all in the same position with the companies that we represent :-)
  266. # [12:03] <Hixie> nessy: yes, that's why i was surprised by maciej's e-mail
  267. # [12:03] * nessy goes checking out email
  268. # [12:04] <Hixie> othermaciej: i guess i still think that there's a difference between a random person describing their opinions, and a chair describing their opinion, and i would consider the latter guidance regardless of whether it was a proclamation of chair consensus or not
  269. # [12:05] <othermaciej> Hixie: fair enough, and if you said "guidance from one of the chairs", I would not complain
  270. # [12:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: because in the absence of more data, all we have so far is a bunch of people arguing about what the group should do, and one chair saying what their opinion is
  271. # [12:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: and at the ond of that day, the chairs get to decide
  272. # [12:05] <othermaciej> (unless I tried to draw some clear distinction that I'm speaking in some other role, such as representing Apple)
  273. # [12:06] <Hixie> fair enough
  274. # [12:06] <Hixie> it's sad that we can't necessarily assume that our chairs are of one mind on matters as key as what the target audience of the main wg deliverable is, though :-)
  275. # [12:07] <nessy> maybe they are, but maciej is just careful?
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  277. # [12:08] <nessy> I find that thread weird anyway … but that's just me :)
  278. # [12:08] <othermaciej> I've never actually asked them because it hasn't often been a relevant point of debate
  279. # [12:08] <othermaciej> I think Larry is trying to establish some basic points that would support his argument that HTML5 should have an optional version indicator
  280. # [12:10] <othermaciej> I doubt he'll get everyone to agree, but it beats his original approach of not stating a rationale at all
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  314. # [15:24] <Huvet> hi, did someone remove the documentation? http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/wiki/UserDocumentation
  315. # [15:24] <Huvet> linked from the startpage
  316. # [15:35] <Huvet> or, I could ask what I wanted to know instead :)
  317. # [15:36] <Huvet> how do I strip all HTML from a page with html5lib?
  318. # [15:36] <Huvet> (python version)
  319. # [15:46] <TabAtkins> Different question: whitespace collapse is just a display effect, right? The original whitespace is still present in the DOM?
  320. # [15:50] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: it's in the DOM
  321. # [15:50] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: however, CRLF normalization takes place before the DOM
  322. # [15:50] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Excellent.
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  324. # [16:01] <cardona507> hey TabAtkins - how are you doing? Did you have a nice holiday? Did you ever post the CSS3 presentation from TPAC? I still haven't seen it.
  325. # [16:02] <TabAtkins> Yo, cardona507. I finished it up and sent it off to TBL. He put up an early cut without the slides, but I haven't heard anything about it since then either.
  326. # [16:04] <TabAtkins> http://www.vimeo.com/7480616
  327. # [16:04] <TabAtkins> ^^^ Early one.
  328. # [16:04] * Joins: mikekelly (i=mikek@s3x0r.biz)
  329. # [16:04] <mikekelly> hi fans
  330. # [16:06] <mikekelly> been trying to figure out why there's no @rel attribute for form elements
  331. # [16:07] <mikekelly> anyone got any idea why that might be the case?
  332. # [16:07] <cardona507> what exactly is HTML5lib?
  333. # [16:10] <jgraham> cardona507: Is that a deep philosopical question or do you want a simple answer like "a set of implementations of the html5 parsing algorithm for various languages (principally python, also PHP, formerly ruby), and some associated utilities for working with HTML trees"
  334. # [16:11] <cardona507> jgraham - :) - not it isn't a philiosophical question - I actually am interested in what it is - thanks for the answer
  335. # [16:11] <mikekelly> is a form not considered a type of hyperlink?
  336. # [16:14] <Philip`> mikekelly: No - <a href> and <area href> and some <link href>s are the only hyperlinks
  337. # [16:14] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#hyperlink-elements
  338. # [16:16] <mikekelly> Philip`: Ok - I was wondering more about the reason that distinction is held
  339. # [16:17] <mikekelly> i.e. a form links the UA to another URL .. seems like a hyperlink to me
  340. # [16:18] <Philip`> I'd guess it's because those are the only things that directly provide a URL for users to visit
  341. # [16:18] <Philip`> whereas form URLs aren't useful by themselves, since they require form data to be passed too
  342. # [16:18] <Philip`> (and lots of other URL attributes (<img src> etc) aren't followed by users)
  343. # [16:19] <mikekelly> so rel='search-result' wouldn't be an appropriate link relation for the google search box?
  344. # [16:19] <mikekelly> the link is variable
  345. # [16:19] <mikekelly> but it's constrained
  346. # [16:19] <Philip`> How would any consumer make use of that rel information?
  347. # [16:20] <mikekelly> the variable parts of a GET action are all search parts
  348. # [16:20] <Philip`> If the search form had rel="next" then what should happen in a UA which provides a 'next page' button in its UI based on rel=next links?
  349. # [16:20] <mikekelly> Philip`: a machine would be able to insert data into that form and understand the semantics of the resulting requesdt
  350. # [16:22] <Philip`> That wouldn't work on e.g. Google's search box because the semantics of the response depend on the parameters, e.g. if you click "I'm Feeling Lucky" then it sends different parameters and the result is a redirection to a result page instead of a list of results
  351. # [16:23] <mikekelly> what is the difference between those two submit buttons?
  352. # [16:23] <mikekelly> is that html?
  353. # [16:26] <Philip`> <form action=...><input type=submit name=btnG value=Search><input type=submit name=btnI value=Lucky></form>
  354. # [16:26] <Philip`> Oh dear
  355. # [16:26] <Philip`> If I click "I'm Feeling Lucky" with no text in the search box, it looks like an old Geocities page with fireworks everywhere :-(
  356. # [16:27] <mikekelly> er.. right
  357. # [16:27] <mikekelly> and that would be perfectly valid HTTP response
  358. # [16:27] <mikekelly> the redirect is a 'search-result'
  359. # [16:27] <mikekelly> a search result that redirects you..
  360. # [16:27] <cardona507> :-/ oh my - those google fireworks are nice
  361. # [16:28] <Philip`> They're terribly slow in Opera
  362. # [16:28] <mikekelly> Philip`: I don't see any problem with that at all.
  363. # [16:28] <mikekelly> infact, there is no problem with that at all
  364. # [16:28] <daedb> what fireworks?
  365. # [16:28] <mikekelly> take the URL that feeling luckky button generates
  366. # [16:28] <mikekelly> and put it in CURL
  367. # [16:28] <Philip`> Oh, they're much faster in Opera 10.50
  368. # [16:28] <cardona507> daedb - go to google and click i'm feeling lucky
  369. # [16:29] <mikekelly> and see what you get
  370. # [16:29] <Philip`> Hooray for faster Opera
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  372. # [16:29] <cardona507> +1 to that!
  373. # [16:29] * Philip` eagerly awaits one that's fast and also stable
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  375. # [16:30] <Philip`> mikekelly: Do you think the rel should be a per-form thing, or a per-submit-button thing?
  376. # [16:31] <mikekelly> Philip`: per form..
  377. # [16:31] <mikekelly> the 'problem' you've identified doesn't exist
  378. # [16:32] <daedb> cardona507: I just get a page that explains the I'm feeling lucky function, no fireworks.
  379. # [16:32] <cardona507> daedb - I am logged in to my google account also - I don't know if that affects it - Philip`, are you logged in to your google account when you see the fireworks?
  380. # [16:33] <Philip`> mikekelly: It seems like a problem if the buttons do more differing things, or if you want to assign more specific semantics to the form, which don't seem like uncommon situations
  381. # [16:33] <mikekelly> Philip`: when you click I'm feeling Lucky - it's still making the resulting request to a search-result on google server
  382. # [16:34] <Philip`> mikekelly: (The specific case of search forms can be handled by <input type=search> anyway, so I'm assuming you want something more general)
  383. # [16:34] <mikekelly> so what can you actually change with an html form button?
  384. # [16:34] <Philip`> cardona507: I am both logged in and not logged in
  385. # [16:34] <mikekelly> all you can do is add another parameter to the search part of a URI
  386. # [16:34] <daedb> cardona507: I logged in... doesn't seem to make a difference
  387. # [16:35] * Philip` goes away for a bit
  388. # [16:35] <mikekelly> Philip`: yeah something more general.. almost like.. a platform for development :)
  389. # [16:35] <mikekelly> *shock horror*
  390. # [16:35] * daedb wants to see the fireworks too :(
  391. # [16:38] <cardona507> daedb - http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7306/googlenewyear.png - enjoy :)
  392. # [16:38] <cardona507> just imagine that animated across the screen over and over
  393. # [16:38] <mikekelly> Philip`: I guess you could add in a more specific link relation for specific buttons..
  394. # [16:40] <Huvet> any clue about my question? how do I remove all HTML with html5lib?
  395. # [16:40] <Huvet> and second question, where did the documentation go?
  396. # [16:41] <daedb> oh, now I got it to work... had to click the "Google in english" link (but switching language in prefs did nothing) for it to work.
  397. # [16:43] <Philip`> Huvet: I'd guess it might be something like
  398. # [16:43] <Philip`> from lxml import etree
  399. # [16:43] <Philip`> parser = html5lib.html5parser.HTMLParser(tree = html5lib.treebuilders.getTreeBuilder('lxml'))
  400. # [16:43] <Philip`> doc = parser.parse(open(filename), encoding='utf-8')
  401. # [16:43] <cardona507> so google isn't showing those nice effects to our multilingual brothers and sisters - such a shame :)
  402. # [16:44] <Philip`> (untested)
  403. # [16:44] <Philip`> text = etree.tostring(doc, method='text')
  404. # [16:44] <Philip`> Huvet: and then escape all the "<"s and "&"s if you're going to display it in an HTML page
  405. # [16:44] <Huvet> ah, I'll try that, thanks
  406. # [16:44] <Huvet> I don't want any HTML at all
  407. # [16:44] <Huvet> just remove all the tags
  408. # [16:45] <Huvet> I just want to show the raw text content from a HTML page
  409. # [16:46] <Huvet> I guess you could mean that I still have to replace all < chars? Even though all HTML is removed?
  410. # [16:46] <daedb> cardona507: Maybe Google is just anti-Sweden, they're scared of our awesomeness :D
  411. # [16:46] <cardona507> :)
  412. # [16:47] <Huvet> <- fellow swede :)
  413. # [16:47] * cardona507 is feeling overwhelmed with awesomeness
  414. # [16:48] <Philip`> Huvet: Yeah, if the input is like "&lt;<b>foo&gt;" it should return "<foo>" etc - it's just extracting the text from the parsed document
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  455. # [19:41] <jwalden> I'm sure I've read something about the preferred DOM for a block quote with an embedded authority (like "All the world's a stage<NL>-Shakespeare"), but I don't see any examples of it in the HTML5 spec for <blockquote> -- could anyone point me at what's the proper way?
  456. # [19:44] <zcorpan> "Content inside a blockquote must be quoted from another source" says the spec
  457. # [19:45] <zcorpan> so presumably <blockquote>All the world's a stage</blockquote><p>-Shakespeare</p>
  458. # [19:47] <jwalden> that would seem to treat -Shakespeare as semantically at the same level with any surrounding paragraphs of information, which doesn't seem right
  459. # [19:51] <zcorpan> hsivonen would probably do something like <blockquote>"All the world's a stage" -Shakespeare</blockquote>
  460. # [19:52] * Joins: workmad3 (n=workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  461. # [19:54] <Philip`> Use cite and point it at Shakespeare's FOAF file URI
  462. # [19:54] <jwalden> I was thinking of maybe doing <blockquote><p>All the world's a stage</p><p class="attribution">Shakespeare</p></blockquote> with some styling to right-align, "-"-prefix, etc.
  463. # [19:54] <zcorpan> anyone found any bugs with opera's <video> impl yet?
  464. # [19:55] <zcorpan> why use css to "-"-prefix?
  465. # [19:55] <gsnedders> <blockquote cite="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_You_Like_It">All the world's a stage<br>And all the men and women are merely players;<br>They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts,<br>His acts being seven ages....</blockquote>
  466. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> Surely you mean "–"-prefix.\
  467. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> s/\\//
  468. # [19:56] <gsnedders> Then the browser can add the citation magically! :P
  469. # [19:56] * gsnedders checks, and to his amazement actually quoted it correctly
  470. # [19:57] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: ?
  471. # [19:57] <jwalden> en dash versus hyphen
  472. # [19:57] * gsnedders wonders why he can't type non-ASCII characters from this computer into irssi.
  473. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Actually, an em dash might be best.
  474. # [19:57] <gsnedders> em dash, surely?
  475. # [19:57] <gsnedders> An en dash for that would be completely inappropriate
  476. # [19:58] <jwalden> wikipedia's dash article, strangely, doesn't suggest a "correct" dash there as far as I could tell
  477. # [19:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: That doesn't look right to me - surely you need a <br> before "And one"
  478. # [19:58] <jwalden> \2015 is the "quotation dash", but it's apparently used to *introduce* quotes, not to terminate them, from what I could tell
  479. # [19:58] * gsnedders can't tell the difference between en and em dashes in this monospace font
  480. # [19:58] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ah, woops
  481. # [19:58] <jwalden> I had to /eval a copy-paste to determine code points :-)
  482. # [19:59] <gsnedders> jwalden: Yeah, it controls the spacing for it, as well as giving a slightly longer length than a em dash, IIRC
  483. # [19:59] <Philip`> gsnedders: Even I know that Shakespeare used narrow columns :-p
  484. # [19:59] <gsnedders> (the spacing is the most obviously different point to the em dash)
  485. # [20:00] <Philip`> gsnedders: Also, s/women are merely/women merely/ apparently
  486. # [20:00] <Philip`> gsnedders: You can't just get it wrong and then say you got it correct :-p
  487. # [20:01] <gsnedders> Yeah, definitely needed, otherwise it breaks from meter
  488. # [20:02] <gsnedders> Oh well, <q>The course of true love never did run smooth</q>.
  489. # [20:02] * gsnedders hides
  490. # [20:02] <jwalden> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/bq.html is suggesting <bq/><div class>, abbreviating a bit
  491. # [20:02] <gsnedders> :P
  492. # [20:02] <gsnedders> Not <bq>!
  493. # [20:03] <gsnedders> bq is just _so_ HTML 3.
  494. # [20:03] <zcorpan> opera supports bq... i mean supported
  495. # [20:03] <jwalden> wait...was there actually a bq element? I was just avoiding the typing!
  496. # [20:03] <gsnedders> In HTML 3
  497. # [20:03] <jwalden> whaaa...
  498. # [20:04] <gsnedders> zcorpan: We still support it in the latest stable release, with our buggy implementation of HTMLQuoteElement!
  499. # [20:04] <gsnedders> (the only special attribute on HTMLQuoteElement over HTMLElement is cite, which should return an absolute URL, but returns the attribute value in O10.10 for blockquote and bq)
  500. # [20:04] <zcorpan> who cares about the latest stable release
  501. # [20:04] <gsnedders> (and in 10.50 doesn't exist on bq)
  502. # [20:05] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Me, as I had nothing to do with it, so any bugs in it aren't my fault, ever.
  503. # [20:09] <Philip`> zcorpan: Users? :-)
  504. # [20:09] <Huvet> Philip`: the html stripping code you proposed crashes on unicode characters I'm afraid
  505. # [20:09] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah
  506. # [20:09] <Huvet> somewhere inside lxml.etree
  507. # [20:10] <Huvet> oh, hi zcorpan :)
  508. # [20:10] <zcorpan> hi Huvet
  509. # [20:11] <gsnedders> etree.tostring(Element, encoding=unicode, method='text', with_tail=False)
  510. # [20:11] <Huvet> thx
  511. # [20:12] <jwalden> aargh, <bq> plus <credit> in HTML3 are exactly the solution I desire for this; if only they'd been kept in later versions...
  512. # [20:13] <zcorpan> gsnedders: found any blog software with a serializer yet?
  513. # [20:13] <gsnedders> zcorpan: no
  514. # [20:13] <zcorpan> jwalden: we could add <credit> to html5--i mean html6
  515. # [20:13] <gsnedders> zcorpan: s/6//
  516. # [20:13] <gsnedders> :P
  517. # [20:13] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  518. # [20:14] * jwalden wonders if there was a whatwg@ thread about it that he didn't read, probably given how many threads there have been on everything under the sun
  519. # [20:14] <zcorpan> html > html5
  520. # [20:14] <jwalden> I would be astounded if no one had ever mentioned it
  521. # [20:15] <zcorpan> hence,
  522. # [20:15] <zcorpan> > 5
  523. # [20:15] <jwalden> [EVAL-IN] "html" > "html5"
  524. # [20:15] <jwalden> [EVAL-OUT] false
  525. # [20:15] <jwalden> ;-)
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  527. # [20:16] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Why, you found any decent blog software?
  528. # [20:16] <zcorpan> no
  529. # [20:17] * gsnedders really wants something sane for thereshouldbenored.com
  530. # [20:18] <jwalden> looks green to me!
  531. # [20:18] <jwalden> (after a handful of reloads)
  532. # [20:20] <jwalden> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/dashes.html suggests em dash for -Shakespeare
  533. # [20:20] <zcorpan> i'd like something for spacergif.mobi
  534. # [20:20] <Huvet> heh, that has got to be one of the worse domain names ever :)
  535. # [20:21] <Huvet> worst*
  536. # [20:21] <Huvet> I like it!
  537. # [20:23] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Hey, I at least have something at spacergif.mobi
  538. # [20:23] * jwalden waits for the IF TLD so he can steal spacerg.if
  539. # [20:23] * gsnedders still wants photos from the toilet there
  540. # [20:23] <gsnedders> (to make a joke very few will get)
  541. # [20:24] <zcorpan> gsnedders: what do you have at spacergif.mobi?
  542. # [20:24] <zcorpan> gsnedders: i have it on my phone
  543. # [20:24] <gsnedders> Oh, it's a gif
  544. # [20:25] <gsnedders> You could have something I could _see_!
  545. # [20:25] <zcorpan> you aint supposed to see spacer gifs
  546. # [20:26] <gsnedders> But there's no red, so I guess it passes.
  547. # [20:26] <gsnedders> jwalden: I'd never seen it green until a colleague sat around for a while reloading it.
  548. # [20:26] <gsnedders> zcorpan: What resolution?
  549. # [20:27] <zcorpan> gsnedders: blank is usually not a pass
  550. # [20:27] <jwalden> gsnedders: you still at opera, or back at school yet?
  551. # [20:27] <gsnedders> jwalden: At Opera
  552. # [20:27] <zcorpan> gsnedders: probably 640x480 or less
  553. # [20:27] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Or more to the point: can you read the sign?
  554. # [20:27] <zcorpan> yes
  555. # [20:27] <gsnedders> And see red?
  556. # [20:27] <jwalden> nice, must have been longer than the three-month periods I'm used to in the US
  557. # [20:27] <zcorpan> yes
  558. # [20:28] <jwalden> unless my sense of time is just shot
  559. # [20:28] <gsnedders> jwalden: Oh, I ended up staying on after internship for a gap year
  560. # [20:28] <jwalden> ah
  561. # [20:30] <gsnedders> But some people don't want me to leave at the end of my gap year
  562. # [20:30] <gsnedders> :P
  563. # [20:30] <jwalden> heh
  564. # [20:31] <gsnedders> (And I don't mean my father ;P)
  565. # [20:31] <jwalden> this is before college (I think), so I wouldn't recommend it, since I doubt you're planning to go to some sort of vocational/technical school
  566. # [20:32] <gsnedders> But education means exams, and exams suck. :P
  567. # [20:33] <AryehGregor> Tell me about it, I have my writtens in three days. >:(
  568. # [20:34] <zcorpan> gsnedders: it's 1200x1600 apparently
  569. # [20:34] <jwalden> I can take exams as an acceptable cost to pay for gaining the knowledge, mostly :-)
  570. # [20:35] <gsnedders> zcorpan: email it to me (me@gsnedders.com)
  571. # [20:36] <zcorpan> wonder if i can email files with opera mini
  572. # [20:41] <zcorpan> hmm the <input type=file> control does nothing
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  574. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> jwalden, the knowledge or the degree? You could always study by yourself and skip the exam bit if not for the "grades" part.
  575. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> Like just audit every course.
  576. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> Unless you can't bring yourself to study without exams.
  577. # [20:47] <jwalden> I'm not convinced you can learn as much just by self-study; doing it with others, struggling through it with them, is significant additional value
  578. # [20:48] <Huvet> gsnedders: thanks for that encoding attrib, works great :)
  579. # [20:48] <gsnedders> Huvet: That's literally what Anolis uses, so it should work
  580. # [20:49] * Huvet googles Anolis
  581. # [20:49] <Huvet> ah, nice
  582. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> jwalden, you could go to college but just audit all your courses, and not take the tests. The only reason to actually take courses is if you want the degree.
  583. # [20:50] <jwalden> a degree's certainly a useful signaling mechanism
  584. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> Right, that's the key thing. You don't need exams to learn things, you need exams to prove to others that you've learned things.
  585. # [20:50] <Huvet> yeah, and don't forget the networking possibilities... lots of people get a job through their uni. network
  586. # [20:51] * gsnedders got a job through #whatwg :P
  587. # [20:51] <Huvet> :)
  588. # [20:53] <gsnedders> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081116#l-188
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  596. # [22:36] * jgraham notes that Shakespeare often deviates from meter
  597. # [22:36] <jgraham> I also note that I just pushed some changes to html5lib that should fix some stuff but probably doesn't because I have a cold
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  604. # [23:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: So is taht 121
  605. # [23:06] <gsnedders> too?
  606. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Oh,y ou commented there
  607. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Just didn't close it
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The end :)