/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-21 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 21 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:01] <Lachy> Hixie, re: using HTTP URLs for Microdata itemtype, does it have to be a URL at all? http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-January/024770.html
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5. # [00:03] <Lachy> The problem I have with using URLs for this, and for namespaces in general, is that formats will most likely out-last the organisation that created them and assigned the namespace or itemtype URL
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11. # [00:14] <virtuelv> WTF is a focus ring in a web context
12. # [00:14] <virtuelv> to me a focus ring is something on a camera lens
13. # [00:14] <gavin> it's the dotted border thing that lets you know what you've tabbed to
14. # [00:15] <Philip`> It's a ring around something that's focused, as far as I'm aware
15. # [00:15] <gavin> (blue glow on mac)
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17. # [00:15] * Philip` imagines it looking more like the thick blue border in Opera when you shift+arrow onto things, or the thick yellow one in Flash when you tab
18. # [00:15] <virtuelv> focus outline
19. # [00:16] <virtuelv> or focus highlight
20. # [00:17] <virtuelv> somewhere we use the term spatnav highlight in Opera
21. # [00:17] <virtuelv> (that's for shift-arrow)
22. # [00:17] <virtuelv> either way, focus ring seems wrong
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24. # [00:20] <Philip`> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Projects/Focus_Ring_Cleanup says focus ring so it doesn't seem an entirely novel term
25. # [00:20] <jgraham> virtuelv: I think it is pretty normal
26. # [00:20] <jgraham> I wish you could twist them to bring other parts of the screen into and out of focus though
27. # [00:20] <jgraham> That would be cool :)
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29. # [00:20] * Philip` kind of prefers it when his whole screen is in focus
30. # [00:21] <Philip`> There's no point reproducing physical bugs like blurring into computers
31. # [00:22] <jgraham> Well it would be more useful than half the effects that actually come with compiz
32. # [00:22] <jgraham> You could use it to make non-focused areas less distracting
33. # [00:22] * Philip` only has one of those effects enabled
34. # [00:23] * jgraham should probably give up trying to justify such a clearly useless idea
35. # [00:23] <Philip`> (the zooming one)
36. # [00:23] <Philip`> and I almost never use it, and most of the time I can't use it anyway because OpenGL breaks after I suspend and resume
37. # [00:23] <jgraham> You only have one of the effects enabled or you only have one thing enabled, total?
38. # [00:24] <jgraham> (I mean presumably you must have other parts of compiz enabled for window management, right?)
39. # [00:24] <Philip`> It's actually the KDE desktop effects thingy rather than Compiz
40. # [00:24] * jgraham likes the expose-like thing which is confusingly not the one with the expose-like name
41. # [00:24] <Philip`> and I'm not sure how they relate, though they seem kind of similar
42. # [00:25] <jgraham> Oh
43. # [00:25] * jgraham has no idea about KDE :)
44. # [00:26] <jgraham> (although gnome's default compiz UI is rather useless so I have to install the hideously complicated UI instead, which makes me sad)
45. # [00:27] <virtuelv> on that note, I just read an open letter to leica
46. # [00:27] <virtuelv> it was long
47. # [00:27] <virtuelv> and basically told leica to stop sucking and join this millenium
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72. # [01:42] <Lachy> Does anyone understand the problem that might be solved by poetry markup, as being discussed on public-html?
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74. # [01:43] <Lachy> I just can't figure out what user agents could do with the markup that would make it more useful than just using the existing, more general purpose elements.
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83. # [02:10] <webben> Lachy: I get the impression from LML that Hoffman is concerned with poetry being read aloud differently.
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85. # [02:11] <webben> "Prose is in general text with no specific requirements for the presentation of rhythmic or rhymed content. On the contrary the presentation should not pronounce accidental rhythmic or rhymed fragments."
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91. # [02:24] <webben> Lachy: Not significant, but I think you just missed http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100121#l-83
92. # [02:25] <Hixie> fwiw, in case anyone was wondering, macbooks aren't waterproof.
93. # [02:26] <webben> Lachy: see also http://markmail.org/message/6pxz74sm3zcs4gn3
94. # [02:26] <webben> Hixie: This sounds like wisdom gleaned from bitter experience :(
95. # [02:27] <Hixie> yeah.
96. # [02:28] <webben> Lachy: So: 1) read stuff aloud differently and 2) expose the structure of the poetry itself as visible data.
97. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> Are they water-resistant?
98. # [02:29] <Hixie> what's the threshold?
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100. # [02:29] <Hixie> i.e. how much water would they have to resist for the answer to be yes?
101. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> I don't know, but I assume the terms have some conventional meanings.
102. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> I think "water-resistant" means it will be okay if you take it out in the rain, "waterproof" means it will be okay if you drop it in the bathtub.
103. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> Roughly.
104. # [02:30] <Hixie> ah
105. # [02:30] <Hixie> well
106. # [02:30] <Hixie> where do you think half a glass of water straight into the keyboard fits in this spectrum?
107. # [02:33] <Lachy> maybe laptops should have depth ratings on them, like watches do
108. # [02:33] <Hixie> "rated up to -1cm below water level"
109. # [02:34] <Lachy> where such depth ratings do not correspond with the actual water depth they are capable of handling.
110. # [02:34] <Lachy> like, e.g. a watch rated at "30m" corresponds to roughly splash resistant from, e.g. a tap while washing hands.
111. # [02:34] <Hixie> hah
112. # [02:35] <AryehGregor> Hixie, so I think you're supposed to take out the battery and let it dry out?
113. # [02:35] <AryehGregor> Apparently it will often be okay if you give it a few days to fully dry.
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159. # [02:39] <Lachy> Hixie, you have a terminal. Can't you just use the date command for that?
160. # [02:40] <Hixie> the clock in my irssi window gives me CET time :-)
161. # [02:40] <Hixie> but yes, i could have used terminal too
162. # [02:40] <Hixie> i just happened to already have google open
163. # [02:40] <Lachy> is CET the time zone I'm in?
164. # [02:40] <Hixie> is it 02:39 where you are?
165. # [02:40] <Lachy> I'm guessing Central European Time
166. # [02:40] <Lachy> yes
167. # [02:41] <Hixie> then yes
168. # [02:45] <Lachy> Hixie, maybe you missed this earlier...
169. # [02:45] <Lachy> <Lachy> Hixie, re: using HTTP URLs for Microdata itemtype, does it have to be a URL at all? http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-January/024770.html
170. # [02:45] <Lachy> <Lachy> The problem I have with using URLs for this, and for namespaces in general, is that formats will most likely out-last the organisation that created them and assigned the namespace or itemtype URL
171. # [02:46] <Hixie> what should we use instead? people didn't like the reverse-dns identifiers
172. # [02:46] <Hixie> and urls are what rdf uses already
173. # [02:46] <Hixie> users didn't have any problems dealing with urls in the studies, fwiw
174. # [02:46] <Lachy> I know that, and realise we're stuck with URLs, at least for RDF conversion.
175. # [02:47] <Lachy> I just don't like the idea of tying widely used metadata formats to one particular organisation.
176. # [02:47] <Hixie> *shrug*
177. # [02:47] <Lachy> and one of the problems that has occured with namespaces is that there's no widely used convention for how the URLs should be structured, so we've ended up with a wide range of confusing, non-memorable URLs
178. # [02:48] <Lachy> which often contain effectively meaningless stuff like the years in the older W3C namespaces
179. # [02:50] <Lachy> e.g. compare http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml, http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom (note the unexpected capital A), http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace
180. # [02:51] <Lachy> so I would prefer that we could come up with a simpler, predictable format for itemtype, which identify the format, without identifying the organisation that happened to define it
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184. # [02:52] <Hixie> this is not a battle i want to engage in, but if you can find a solution that i can adopt without having to spend effort defending, i'll happily do so
185. # [02:54] <Lachy> I also assume that using a centralised registry won't go down well either, since one of the claimed benefits I've heard for using URLs, is that it piggy backs on top of the existing DNS registry
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187. # [02:55] <Hixie> long term i think we need to support URLs anyway, given the volume of vocabularies already using them, and if we have to support _two_ mechanisms, that may be worse than URLs, however good the alternative mechanism
188. # [02:55] <Hixie> which may be an argument for not bothering
189. # [02:55] <Hixie> (it was the argument against reverse-dns -- it just wasn't enough of a gain to be worth it)
190. # [02:56] <Lachy> hmm, ok. That does suck that we have to continue to suffer from the mistakes of RDF and namespaces :-(
191. # [02:57] <Hixie> just like we have to suffer from SVG's design mistakes
192. # [02:57] <Lachy> btw, is there any plan to switch the itemtypes from using n.whatwg.org URLs to W3C URLs, or is the intention just to keep those permanently, regardless of whatever eventually happens with microdata?
193. # [02:57] <Hixie> and just like people in the future will have to deal with ours
194. # [02:57] <Hixie> e.g. the storage mutex
195. # [02:58] <Hixie> i don't intend to change anything
196. # [02:58] <Lachy> ok
197. # [02:58] <Hixie> of course if the w3c can provide a better URL (-> shorter, memorable) before that one gains usage, then i don't see why we wouldn't use it
198. # [03:00] <Lachy> it's going to be nice when spammers inevitably take over whatwg.org and start serving ads or even malicious content from those URLs
199. # [03:01] <Hixie> i wish i could renew domains for more than 1 year at a time
200. # [03:01] <Hixie> i'd just renew it for 100 years if i could
201. # [03:01] <Lachy> that depends which provider you register it through
202. # [03:01] <Hixie> dreamhost
203. # [03:02] <Lachy> I thought the maximum permitted by the .com registry was about 10 years
204. # [03:02] <Hixie> that's already pretty miserly
205. # [03:02] <AryehGregor> Maybe DNS won't exist in 100 years, then you wasted your money.
206. # [03:03] <Lachy> but I once saw one registrar use a loophole to allow 100 year registrations, where they would register it for 10 and promise to keep renewing it automatically
207. # [03:04] <Hixie> AryehGregor: it's ok, by then the money would have been worthless anyway :-P
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215. # [03:22] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/201001201816.14025.Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de
216. # [03:22] <Hixie> "Already XHTML2 was considered to be too progressive"
217. # [03:22] <Hixie> i really don't think that's the criticism i would level at XHTML2
218. # [03:24] <AryehGregor> Maybe "too progressive" means "trying to make too much progress".
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220. # [03:30] <Hixie> XHTML2 was one of the slowest moving specs the W3C has ever worked on, so that doesn't seem like a valid criticism either
221. # [03:30] <AryehGregor> I said trying, not succeeding.
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223. # [03:33] <AryehGregor> As in, it tried to improve HTML as much as possible, even regardless of backward compatibility.
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226. # [03:33] <boblet> MikeSmithX: Hey Mike, are you in town today?
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228. # [03:36] <boblet> heh
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247. # [05:20] <othermaciej> so, http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html now lists every issue that's still open
248. # [05:21] <othermaciej> and has per-issue permakinks
249. # [05:21] <othermaciej> *pernalinks
250. # [05:21] <othermaciej> dang it
251. # [05:21] <othermaciej> permalinks
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254. # [05:25] <cardona507> wow - so google is putting HTML5 now into youtube http://youtube-global.blogspot.com/2010/01/introducing-youtube-html5-supported.html
255. # [05:25] <cardona507> very sweet
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257. # [05:27] <othermaciej> I wonder when you can actually enable it (instead of just seeing it on the demo page)
258. # [05:27] <othermaciej> I would love to be done with using Flash for YouTube...
259. # [05:28] <jcranmer> everyone keeps saying that "oh, theora quality sucks", but people have pointed out that theora outperforms youtube at current quality levels
260. # [05:31] <cardona507> jcranmer - I read Chris DiBona from Google say “If [YouTube] were to switch to Theora and maintain even a semblance of the current YouTube quality it would take up most available bandwidth across the Internet.”
261. # [05:32] <cardona507> http://www.betanews.com/article/Stalemate-for-Web-standards-continues-with-no-open-video-for-HTML-5/1248278484
262. # [05:33] <cardona507> othermaciej - I wonder the same - as I am sure you know Youtube has had the sample page up for quite a while - but the announcement from today makes it seem like soon if you are running a modern webkit browser it will just load <video> - I too am waaay over flash for youtube
263. # [05:34] <othermaciej> cardona507: it sounded like you could now enable HTML5 mode on all pages, but it looks like all there is for now is a demo page
264. # [05:34] <cardona507> Here is another article from techcrunch that explains it a bit more http://www.techcrunch.com/2010/01/20/youtube-html5/
265. # [05:35] <cardona507> It sends you to this page to "activate" the feature http://www.youtube.com/testtube
266. # [05:36] <cardona507> but yeah - it only sends me to the original html5 video example page -
267. # [05:36] <jcranmer> cardona507: [citation needed]
268. # [05:36] <cardona507> I guess we will see more and more over the coming weeks
269. # [05:36] <cardona507> jcranmer - I posted the link below
270. # [05:36] <jcranmer> http://people.xiph.org/~greg/video/ytcompare/comparison.html
271. # [05:37] <cardona507> http://www.betanews.com/article/Stalemate-for-Web-standards-continues-with-no-open-video-for-HTML-5/1248278484
272. # [05:37] <cardona507> oh - nice
273. # [05:37] <jcranmer> theora has comparable quality and comparable bitrates under "standard" arguments
274. # [05:38] <cardona507> What is the main argument against using it then? that it "might" have silent patents?
275. # [05:38] <jcranmer> no hardware decoders was a major reason listed
276. # [05:39] <jcranmer> I suspect that's probably the primary reason Apple and Nokia dug in their heels
277. # [05:40] <cardona507> I am really hoping hoping that google gets a codec from it's potential On2 acquisition and makes it open source - that would be great
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280. # [05:44] <cardona507> On an entirely unrelated and unlikely wish- I sure wish that microsoft would scrap Trident and go with Webkit for IE 9 - Hey we can dream can't we?
281. # [05:46] <othermaciej> I think the odds of that are pretty much nil
282. # [05:46] <cardona507> :D
283. # [05:47] <cardona507> webkit is turning into a defacto standard for modern browsers - especially mobile
284. # [05:47] <cardona507> (as you all know)
285. # [05:48] <cardona507> What are the chances of firefox going with webkit? also nil?
286. # [05:49] <jcranmer> yep
287. # [05:51] <jcranmer> I would be remiss if everyone went to one layout engine
288. # [05:51] <cardona507> I guess an entirely homogenous environment (all modern broswers using webkit) could potentially be a security hazard
289. # [05:51] <jcranmer> it would essentially become an innovation graveyard as ewll
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294. # [06:01] <Necrathex> presto 2.5 seems pretty awesome though
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302. # [06:08] <cardona507> Necrathex - yeah - I agree -
303. # [06:09] <cardona507> pretty interesting that opera bought an ad network today
304. # [06:09] <cardona507> or at least the announcement was today
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331. # [07:40] <beilabs> Are there any examples of a basic rails app which syncs offline/online data using HTML5?
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355. # [09:04] <Hixie> hmm
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357. # [09:07] <othermaciej> Hixie: ayt?
358. # [09:07] <othermaciej> Hixie: I guess you are since you just said something
359. # [09:07] <Hixie> hey
360. # [09:07] <othermaciej> I have a hopefully brief question relating to a WebKit bug
361. # [09:08] <othermaciej> someone submitted a patch that would cache the actual NodeList objects returned by getElementsByTagName, getElementsByTagNameNS, getElementsByName, and getElementsByClassName
362. # [09:08] <othermaciej> so if called on the same node with the same parameter twice, they would return the same value
363. # [09:08] <othermaciej> DOM Level 3 Core seems to explicitly forbid this for gEBTN and gEBTNNS
364. # [09:08] <othermaciej> but for the two specified in HTML5, it does not say one way or the other
365. # [09:09] <othermaciej> here is the bug: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33696
366. # [09:09] <othermaciej> my comment links the relevant spec sections: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33696#c17
367. # [09:09] <othermaciej> my question to you is whether HTML5's silence on whether these methods return a new object is meant to intentionally diverge from DOM Core and allow caching, or if it's just an oversight and is actually supposed to match DOM Core
368. # [09:11] <Hixie> the latter
369. # [09:12] <othermaciej> ok
370. # [09:12] <Hixie> can you file a bug for that?
371. # [09:12] <othermaciej> I will
372. # [09:12] <Hixie> thanks
373. # [09:12] <othermaciej> I think it would be better if DOM 3 Core and HTML5 both allowed caching, but it certainly seems bad for them to differ
374. # [09:12] <othermaciej> so probably the right thing to do is fix it in DOM Core first
375. # [09:13] <Hixie> i would rather scripts always get reliably a new object
376. # [09:13] <Hixie> so that they don't start getting non-interoperable behaviour if they're messing with properties on these objects
377. # [09:13] <Hixie> either it should always return the same object or never, imho
378. # [09:14] <othermaciej> that is indeed somewhat safer to always return a new object
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380. # [09:14] <Hixie> it seems like it'd be relatively easy to implement wrappers that make it seem like they're new objects while being mostly the same object internally
381. # [09:14] <othermaciej> the only reason I was enthused about the caching is that I think setting custom properties on NodeLists is kinda rare, and the performance win seems really big
382. # [09:14] <othermaciej> that is in fact what we do currently
383. # [09:14] <Hixie> what's most of the win from?
384. # [09:14] <Hixie> is creating JS objects that expensive?
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386. # [09:15] <othermaciej> I believe most of the win is from not allocating the JS-level wrapper, but it's not my patch and I did not do profiling so I can't say for sure
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388. # [09:15] <Hixie> ah
389. # [09:15] <Hixie> maybe you can do copy-on-write magic or something
390. # [09:16] <othermaciej> that's not really practical to do with JS objects
391. # [09:16] <othermaciej> they can easily share all their innards but be different wrappers, and we do that already (essentially)
392. # [09:16] <othermaciej> but you can't have two pointers to the same JS-level wrapper turn different later
393. # [09:16] <othermaciej> so there's no way to avoid doing an allocation on every call with the current requirements
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395. # [09:17] <Hixie> seems like you should be able to add one level of indirection -- one pointer and one bit, in fact -- but i guess the code complexity would be disproportionate
396. # [09:18] <Hixie> and i guess the cost could be prohibitive
397. # [09:18] <Hixie> relative to the win
398. # [09:18] <othermaciej> it's really the fixed overhead of allocating the JS wrapper that I believe is the expensive part, so adding a level of indirection would not help, since the indirect part would have to be allocated as a JS value itself
399. # [09:18] <othermaciej> to work with the GC
400. # [09:20] <Hixie> ah, yeah
401. # [09:20] <Hixie> surely your JS wrappers are all fixed-size and can be arena allocated really cheaply
402. # [09:21] <Hixie> seems odd that that would be the expensive bit
403. # [09:21] <Hixie> allocating the actual NodeList, sure
404. # [09:23] <othermaciej> GC allocation ain't cheap
405. # [09:23] <othermaciej> allocating the C++-level NodeList might be a big part of the cost too, and in theory we can have distinct wrappers for the same C++-level NodeList
406. # [09:24] <othermaciej> I think our caching right now is of an object that's shared by multiple C++ NodeLists
407. # [09:24] <othermaciej> I can suggest trying that to the contributor and see if returning the same actual JS-level NodeLists still looks like a big win after
408. # [09:25] <othermaciej> filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8792
409. # [09:25] <Hixie> with the caveat that i am talking out of my nether regions, it seems like getting GC structures to allocate fast would be a good win in general
410. # [09:25] <Hixie> but i expect you have experts who are better positioned to work out this kind of thing :0)
411. # [09:25] <Hixie> :-) even
412. # [09:26] * Hixie poured water on his macbook pro yesterday and has been relegated to an X41
413. # [09:26] <Hixie> running Windows
414. # [09:26] <Hixie> what a life
415. # [09:26] <othermaciej> Hixie: I am sure JSC and V8 have both put a good bit of work into tuning our respective GC allocators
416. # [09:27] <othermaciej> there are some fundamental limits
417. # [09:27] <Hixie> yeah
418. # [09:27] <othermaciej> in the case of this test it's not just the allocation, but the fact that you are creating lots of garbage
419. # [09:27] <othermaciej> and every garbage JSNodeList needs to have a finalizer
420. # [09:27] <Hixie> makes sense
421. # [09:27] <othermaciej> that will strain any GC algorithm I know of
422. # [09:28] <othermaciej> anyway I r-'d the patch for now
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424. # [09:29] <othermaciej> I am finding that a lot more WebKit contributors are submitting stuff lately that I have to r- because it directly violates a spec, without apparent compatibility need (or similarly good reason)
425. # [09:29] <othermaciej> I am not sure what to do about this
426. # [09:30] <othermaciej> also I am far from the only reviewer so I wonder how much of that sorta thing is slipping through
427. # [09:30] <othermaciej> not that it's your problem
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429. # [09:30] <Hixie> yeah i dunno what the solution is
430. # [09:30] <Hixie> what other kind of stuff has there been?
431. # [09:32] <othermaciej> one that I specifically recall is someone submitting a patch to implement HTML5 footer that tried to enforce the content model in the parser
432. # [09:32] <othermaciej> i.e. it would actually reparent on an attempt to nest <footer> elements
433. # [09:32] <Hixie> oh yeah, i saw that one
434. # [09:32] <Hixie> that seems like a pretty fundamental failure to read the spec
435. # [09:32] <Hixie> some of the feedback on the mailing lists has been like that too
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437. # [09:36] <othermaciej> standards are complex
438. # [09:36] <othermaciej> and it can take a while to get up to speed on some of the basic concepts
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443. # [09:54] * Hixie is baffled at the apparent lack of online chat or e-mail support for natwest bank accounts
444. # [09:55] <Hixie> can anyone in the UK check for me whether you guys have the internet yet?
445. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I spilled beer on my Macbook keyboard a while back, so I bought one of those newish aluminum bluetooth keyboards, which worked great
446. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> excpet that I split coca-cola on it a while ago, so now several of the keys have this gummy response action
447. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> when I get a new machine, I guess I should probably invest in a keyboard cover
448. # [09:58] <Dashiva> http://twitter.com/sideshowbarker/status/8020153069
449. # [09:58] <Dashiva> Isn't it reasonable to assume anything application/* isn't text?
450. # [09:59] <hsivonen> Dashiva: it's reasonable to assume it's not text in the IETF sense of text
451. # [09:59] <hsivonen> Dashiva: it's not reasonable to assume it's not text in the common-sense sense of text
452. # [09:59] <Hixie> MikeSmith: well for me this is only a temporary inconvenience, since google will just get me a replacement, but still, it's an inconvenience :-)
453. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: the direct problem in my case is that svn refuses to do diffs on anything it thinks is a binary file
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456. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: my problem is that any time I get a new/replacement machine, I lose all my old stickers I have on current one, then I have to spend a bunch of time finding stuff to re-sticker the new one with
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458. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: what hsivonen said
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461. # [10:03] <Dashiva> But would we have that problem at all if XML hadn't decided against being text/*?
462. # [10:04] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.106.4)
463. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> ain't just a problem for XML mime types
464. # [10:05] * Joins: zalan (n=zalan@catv-89-135-110-229.catv.broadband.hu)
465. # [10:07] <Dashiva> I just can't find any obvious examples that aren't XML or XML me-toos.
466. # [10:09] <hsivonen> Dashiva: RELAX NG Compact Syntax
467. # [10:09] <hsivonen> Dashiva: PostScript
468. # [10:09] <hsivonen> Dashiva: a PDF without flate streams
469. # [10:10] <othermaciej> holy crap I'm running HTML5 YouTube
470. # [10:10] <othermaciej> I even checked that there's really a <video> element in the DOM
471. # [10:11] <hsivonen> It's a shame they don't support unencumbered formats
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473. # [10:12] <othermaciej> I am just amazed that it actually works
474. # [10:12] <othermaciej> with the load thermometer and everything
475. # [10:13] <othermaciej> now my only reason to use Flash is Flash games
476. # [10:13] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM111-188-67-117.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
477. # [10:15] <erlehmann> othermaciej, there is a html5 youtube? not only that demo?
478. # [10:15] <othermaciej> erlehmann: now you can enable "HTML5 beta" which gives it to you on all their videos
479. # [10:15] <hsivonen> erlehmann: http://youtube-global.blogspot.com/2010/01/introducing-youtube-html5-supported.html
480. # [10:15] <othermaciej> (earlier it was only the demo page)
481. # [10:16] <Rik`> othermaciej: you could already use youtube with html5 with clicktoflash in Safari
482. # [10:16] <Rik`> btw, the activation page is pretty bad
483. # [10:16] <erlehmann> i'm shocked and appalled ! thanks
484. # [10:16] <hsivonen> Rik`: what's clicktoflash?
485. # [10:17] <Rik`> hsivonen: a Safari plugin similar to flashblock
486. # [10:17] <othermaciej> yeah but I'm not willing to run haxies
487. # [10:17] <hsivonen> Rik`: YouTube was also available as HTML5 in Chromium+encumbered ffmpeg and Chrome using some kind of user script
488. # [10:17] <Rik`> hsivonen: http://rentzsch.github.com/clicktoflash/
489. # [10:17] <Rik`> <p>Right now we support browsers that support both the <video> tag in HTML5 and the h.264 video codec. These include:</p>
490. # [10:18] <Rik`> the <video> tag should be &gt;video&lt;
491. # [10:18] <hsivonen> Rik`: whoa. that goes into ~/Library/Internet Plug-ins/
492. # [10:18] <erlehmann> sadly, no theora ;_;
493. # [10:19] <hsivonen> Rik`: so it's not an input manager? surely NPAPI doesn't offer enough surface for this
494. # [10:19] <hsivonen> Rik`: or does it override Flash's mime registrations or something?
495. # [10:20] <hsivonen> and hosts Flash inside the other plug-in?
496. # [10:20] <Rik`> I think it overrides the mime registration
497. # [10:21] <Rik`> that's what I understand in http://github.com/rentzsch/clicktoflash/blob/master/Plugin/Info-Plugin.plist
498. # [10:21] <othermaciej> it steals Flash's MIME registration
499. # [10:21] <othermaciej> it only works because WebKit plugins take priority over NPAPI plugins
500. # [10:21] <hsivonen> people go to great lengths to avoid Flash
501. # [10:22] <Rik`> clicktoflash blocks flash and add a few nice stuffs like html5 on youtube and special treatment for sifr titles
502. # [10:22] <hsivonen> we had some people over and one person (a physicist, not a software developer) was praising the virtues of not having Flash but having enough Chromium trickery for watching YouTube videos nonetheless
503. # [10:22] <othermaciej> I wish YouTube would stop telling me to download Chrome on every single page though
504. # [10:23] <Rik`> oh, that doesn't work for embedded videos :(
505. # [10:29] <hsivonen> intersting. YouTube shows the Chrome ad in Safari on Mac but not in Minefield on Mac
506. # [10:30] <hsivonen> ad also shown in Opera
507. # [10:30] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
508. # [10:31] <hsivonen> leveraging leadership in one service to promote another product, I guess
509. # [10:35] <Rik`> and so I miss a "Go fullscreen" button in Safari
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512. # [10:43] <Lachy> othermaciej, from what I can tell, it seems that Minefield does return the same object from subsequent getElementsByTagName calls. (Opera and WebKit don't)
513. # [10:43] <Lachy> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cp%3Etest%3C%2Fp%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Avar%20a%20%3D%20document.getElementsByTagName%28%22p%22%29%3B%0Aa.foo%20%3D%20%22FAIL%22%0Avar%20b%20%3D%20document.getElementsByTagName%28%22p%22%29%3B%0Aw%28%22Same%20object%3A%20%22%20%2B%20%28a%20%3D%3D%3D%20b%29%29%3B%0Aw%28%22foo%20property%3A%20%22%20%2B%20b.foo%29%3B%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E%0A
514. # [10:44] <othermaciej> Lachy: ORLY
515. # [10:44] <othermaciej> Lachy: that's a direct violation of DOM Level 3 Core if true
516. # [10:44] <othermaciej> I wonder if it is intentional
517. # [10:44] <othermaciej> Lachy: Minefield only, or also release Firefox?
518. # [10:45] <othermaciej> Lachy: doesn't happen in Firefox 3.5.2 for me
519. # [10:48] <othermaciej> Lachy: cannot reproduce
520. # [10:48] <othermaciej> Lachy: in latest Mnefield on Mac
521. # [10:48] <othermaciej> oh, I gess the w function is not doing anything
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523. # [10:50] <othermaciej> Lachy: seems to be true in Firefox 3.5.2 as well
524. # [10:50] <othermaciej> Lachy: not sure whether to file a Firefox bug or r+ the WebKit patch to do the same now...
525. # [10:51] <othermaciej> I am not sure how to find out if this kind of thing is intentional
526. # [10:51] <othermaciej> wish there were someone here to ask
527. # [10:54] <hsivonen> Boris would most likely know
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531. # [11:00] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I did some hg mining but I didn't find anything obviously intentional in the post-3.5 time frame
532. # [11:00] <othermaciej> hsivonen: the change already exists in 3.5.2, my initial testing was mitsaken
533. # [11:01] <hsivonen> othermaciej: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsContentList.cpp#221
534. # [11:02] <hsivonen> othermaciej: there's a cache whose existence predates the migration to mercurial
535. # [11:03] <hsivonen> othermaciej: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140758
536. # [11:03] <othermaciej> if Mozilla is already doing this for a long time and doesn't have resulting problems, then it's likely not a compat problem to allow it
537. # [11:04] <hsivonen> I don't know about the absence or presence of problems
538. # [11:05] <othermaciej> hsivonen: so it seems intentional and longstanding to return the same NodeList, but there doesn't seem to mention of intentionally violating the DOM spec
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543. # [11:20] <Lachy> othermaciej, the w() function just outputs the value to the log below. It says "Same object: true" for me in Minefield, but false in Opera and WebKit
544. # [11:21] <othermaciej> Lachy: I see the same (after changing to document.write) and Firefox 3.5.2 also has the Minefield behavior
545. # [11:21] <othermaciej> hsivonen also found that this Firefox behavior dates back to 2002
546. # [11:21] <Lachy> wasn't the w() function working for you?
547. # [11:21] * Joins: Heimidal_ (n=heimidal@adsl-64-164-34-54.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net)
548. # [11:21] <othermaciej> I might not have looked in the right place
549. # [11:21] <Lachy> it's in the log at the very bottom of the page, below the rendered view of the page
550. # [11:22] <othermaciej> indeed I did not - since the log was scrolled off the bottom of my window
551. # [11:24] <Lachy> othermaciej, why are we going to do a new CfC for publishing Microdata?
552. # [11:25] <othermaciej> Lachy: the new CfC will be for HTML5, Microdata, 2D Context, and HTML+RDFa to all get first or new Working Drafts
553. # [11:26] <othermaciej> Lachy: reasons for a new CfC are threefold:
554. # [11:26] <othermaciej> (a) some of the objections from the first one will be addressed by Hixie's changes
555. # [11:26] <othermaciej> (b) the HTML5 proposed for publication originally will be materially changed by the further splitting of 2D Context
556. # [11:27] <othermaciej> (c) may as well just have one CfC for everything we want to publish
557. # [11:28] <Hixie> you know, it strikes me that i have no way to describe a string as having to match the HTML or XML syntax
558. # [11:28] <Hixie> this seems like a substantial oversight
559. # [11:28] * Quits: ivan` (n=ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
560. # [11:28] <Lachy> really? How do you state that requirement for innerHTML?
561. # [11:29] <Hixie> there are no conformance criteria for what hte value passed to innerHTML should be
562. # [11:29] <Lachy> ok
563. # [11:30] <Hixie> i guess for this body="" or whatever we end up calling it, i can add a new subsection to the syntax section that describes a document with the doctype made optional
564. # [11:30] <Hixie> and then i can make the <title> section say that it can be omitted for these types of documents
565. # [11:31] <Hixie> i'm leaning towards calling the attribute doc="" or srcdoc="" again, btw, since body="" doesn't really work if it's a full doc (especially in xml)
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567. # [11:32] <Lachy> you could call it content=""
568. # [11:33] <Hixie> that's confusingly similar to <meta content>, especially with microdata
569. # [11:34] <Hixie> it would also screw over RDFa
570. # [11:34] <Hixie> which I'd rather not do
571. # [11:34] <Lachy> ok
572. # [11:34] <Lachy> how would it screw over RDFa? Do they use a content attribute?
573. # [11:35] <Hixie> yeah, iirc
574. # [11:35] * Joins: wakaba_0 (n=wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
575. # [11:35] <Lachy> I don't mind if you screw over RDFa. I'm ignoring their spec entirely
576. # [11:35] * erlehmann_ is now known as erlehmann
577. # [11:37] <Philip`> inlinesrc="..."
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579. # [11:40] <hsivonen> does pagehide fire if the document being navigated away from hasn't fired its onload yet?
580. # [11:42] <hsivonen> hmm. doesn't matter in the case I'm looking at
581. # [11:46] * Joins: Creap (n=creap@vemod.brg.sgsnet.se)
582. # [11:46] <Creap> Is there a place with an easy list of all legal attributes in HTML5? for a syntax checker
583. # [11:47] * Joins: zcorpan__ (n=zcorpan@194.103.203.174)
584. # [11:47] <Lachy> Creap, there's the index of attributes in the spec http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attributes-0
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591. # [12:20] <AryehGregor> HTML5 YouTube, awesome. Now all it needs is fullscreen support.
592. # [12:20] <AryehGregor> Maybe I'll still have to switch from Chrome to Firefox to view YouTube, for the fullscreen support instead of Flash. :P
593. # [12:21] <Necrathex> isn't it possible for youtube to support both h264 and theora, so everyone is happy?
594. # [12:21] <AryehGregor> Hmm, it also doesn't work on lots of videos.
595. # [12:22] <AryehGregor> Necrathex, if they transcode their ridiculously large existing body of content, yes, in theory.
596. # [12:22] <AryehGregor> Oh, right, I can't use Firefox to view YouTube, no H.264 support. Rats.
597. # [12:22] <AryehGregor> Well, I guess I still will sometimes, just using Flash.
598. # [12:22] <Necrathex> well, they did that before with the transition to HQ and HD vids
599. # [12:24] <zcorpan__> AryehGregor: you could use opera on linux if your gstreamer can play h264
600. # [12:25] <AryehGregor> zcorpan__, interesting thought. Does it support full-screen?
601. # [12:25] <zcorpan__> AryehGregor: no, not yet
602. # [12:25] <AryehGregor> Also, YouTube doesn't say it's supported.
603. # [12:25] <hsivonen> a new public draft of XHTML2 is out: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2010/ED-xhtml2-20100113/
604. # [12:25] <AryehGregor> Well, then I may as well keep using Chrome. :)
605. # [12:25] <AryehGregor> Wait, I thought the XHTMLWG had been discontinued?
606. # [12:27] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: the charter of the XHTML2 WG expired at the end of last year, but apparently the WG didn't turn into a pumpkin immediately
607. # [12:27] <AryehGregor> You can publish new working drafts without a charter?
608. # [12:28] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: I've heard you can.
609. # [12:28] <AryehGregor> Obviously so.
610. # [12:28] <AryehGregor> Then what's the point of a charter, though . . . ?
611. # [12:28] <AryehGregor> Could they decide they'd publish a new version of PNG too? That's not outside their charter right now. :)
612. # [12:29] <AryehGregor> Well, I guess we can now go back to telling people who don't like HTML5 to join the XHTMLWG.
613. # [12:29] <hsivonen> the XHTML2 WG
614. # [12:30] <Hixie> zombie wg!
615. # [12:30] <Hixie> actually to be fair they published that note (which they were required to publish) within only a few weeks of the charter running out
616. # [12:31] <Hixie> in w3c terms that's positively timely
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618. # [12:31] <Hixie> contrast with us (the htmlwg), we're at this point something like a year or two behind schedule
619. # [12:32] <hsivonen> did they already publish it as a Note. I thought it was still an ED for a Note.
620. # [12:32] <gsnedders> I guess this is basically because everything published as a FPWD must become a REC or a NOTE
621. # [12:32] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
622. # [12:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: oh i thought that was the note
623. # [12:33] <hsivonen> so pagehide is supposed to fire in all iframes of a pages that is being navigated away from, right?
624. # [12:33] <hsivonen> are there some exceptions to this?
625. # [12:33] <Hixie> how come if i publish an ED that claims to be a WD or NOTE i get told off but they can do it and it's fine?
626. # [12:33] <Philip`> It does say "W3C Note" on the left, and "This document is a Working Group Note. The XHTML2 Working Group's charter expired before it could finish work on this specification.", so I'd assume it's meant to be a Note
627. # [12:34] <Hixie> doesn't seem to have made the TR/ page yet
628. # [12:34] <Hixie> but the 13th was a long time ago
629. # [12:34] <zcorpan__> maybe they just forgot to change the boilerplate
630. # [12:34] <Philip`> Hixie: Maybe because HTML5 is important enough for people to care about, whereas fewer people worry about what happens with XHTML2
631. # [12:34] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote closed the connection)
632. # [12:34] <Philip`> Hixie: Or maybe because everybody hates you and wants to make trouble for you
633. # [12:35] <Hixie> your first hypothesis was better
634. # [12:35] <Hixie> i don't like the other one
635. # [12:35] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
636. # [12:35] <Hixie> it makes me sad
637. # [12:35] <Philip`> Hopefully evidence supports the first one :-)
638. # [12:36] <hsivonen> shouldn't a scientist test both hypotheses?
639. # [12:36] <Hixie> i gave up science after university
640. # [12:37] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, sure. Shall we go find one?
641. # [12:38] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: go ahead :-)
642. # [12:39] <AryehGregor> Bah, Analytics still uses Flash all over the place.
643. # [12:39] * AryehGregor glares at it
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646. # [12:54] <hsivonen> so, pagehide is supposed to be targeted at the document but be dispatched on the window, right?
647. # [12:55] <hsivonen> and then there's another piece of magic that handles the onpagehide attribute on the body element, right?
648. # [12:55] <hsivonen> so the event handler magically goes on window and not on body, right?
649. # [12:56] <zcorpan__> hsivonen: yes, onpagehide on HTMLBodyElement and HTMLFrameSetElement register a listener on window
650. # [12:56] <hsivonen> ok.
651. # [12:56] <zcorpan__> hsivonen: and yes to the first question
652. # [12:56] <hsivonen> and pagehide and unload are sync, and pageshow and load are always async, right?
653. # [12:57] <zcorpan__> i don't know about syncness
654. # [12:57] <hsivonen> ok. thanks
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657. # [13:11] <Lachy> AryehGregor, which videos on YouTube now support HTML5? Have they started rolling out support for that already?
658. # [13:12] <AryehGregor> Lachy, yes.
659. # [13:12] <AryehGregor> http://youtube-global.blogspot.com/2010/01/introducing-youtube-html5-supported.html
660. # [13:12] <AryehGregor> Not all videos, but a lot.
661. # [13:12] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
662. # [13:13] <AryehGregor> You'll have to check if they do browser sniffing or capability testing to exclude Opera. :)
663. # [13:13] <Lachy> awesome, 1080p is coming too! http://youtube-global.blogspot.com/2009/11/1080p-hd-comes-to-youtube.html
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666. # [13:16] <Lachy> where can I find an actual video page using <video>?
667. # [13:16] <Lachy> I clicked the link on http://www.youtube.com/html5 to join the HTML5 beta
668. # [13:17] <virtuelv> Lachy: after you have joined, I think you can go to any video and get html5
669. # [13:18] <Lachy> it doesn't seem to be supported on any video, but I found one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQThSvHiYjU&feature=popular
670. # [13:34] <zcorpan__> has anyone tried it with opera (on linux)?
671. # [13:35] <Necrathex> cant even get it to work in chromium
672. # [13:35] * miketaylr|zombie is now known as miketaylr
673. # [13:36] <Lachy> Hixie, the Save link on the Live DOM Viewer seems to be broken
674. # [13:36] * Joins: yutak_home (n=kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
675. # [13:47] <Hixie> huh
676. # [13:51] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylr|zombie
677. # [13:55] <Hixie> i have no idea why
678. # [13:55] <Hixie> seems sqlite changed
679. # [13:55] <Hixie> but i don't see how
680. # [13:55] <Hixie> i mean, how it is differnet
681. # [14:00] <Hixie> well i did something that shouldn't have made any difference
682. # [14:00] <Hixie> and it seems to work now
683. # [14:01] <Hixie> nn
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685. # [14:04] <ader10> Does the HTML5 doctype tag work in IE5?
686. # [14:07] <hsivonen> ader10: IE 5 doesn't have modes, so mode switching considerations are irrelevant. I haven't tested it for parsing oddities, though.
687. # [14:07] <ader10> Thanks for your helpful answer.
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689. # [14:09] <gsnedders> ader10: For IE5/Mac, which nobody uses, it uses standards mode AFAIK
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691. # [14:11] * miketaylr|zombie is now known as miketaylr
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700. # [14:28] <hsivonen> judging from the YouTube feedback forum, Google now has the kind of fanboyism Apple has had for years
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1107. # [16:04] <AryehGregor> Wow, rumor has it that Bing might become the default search on the iPhone? Microsoft and Apple *teaming up*, against Google? How times change.
1108. # [16:07] <Philip`> If it's true, I'd tend to assume it's more to do with Microsoft offering Apple more money to be the default search provider than Google is offering, rather than being about teaming up with/against anyone
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1110. # [16:08] <Philip`> (I'd assume that's the same reason Opera oscillates between Google and Yahoo and Ask as the default)
1111. # [16:10] <hsivonen> when has Ask been the default on Opera?
1112. # [16:10] <AryehGregor> Eh, there's a lot of strategizing here too. Does Google really pay Mozilla tens of millions of dollars a year just to be the default search provider, or also to get at Microsoft?
1113. # [16:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: It's the default right now, on the Speed Dial page in 10.10
1114. # [16:11] <Philip`> (although "default" probably isn't the right term, because I don't think it's possible to change it to anything else)
1115. # [16:12] <FireFly> Philip`, it's trivial to change it
1116. # [16:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh
1117. # [16:12] <hsivonen> does Ask actually work?
1118. # [16:12] <FireFly> Right click -> manage search engines
1119. # [16:12] <Philip`> FireFly: Ah, right, I just found that
1120. # [16:12] <Philip`> hsivonen: No idea, I never use it :-)
1121. # [16:12] <hsivonen> does Ask do their own R&D or do they outsource to someone else?
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1123. # [16:13] <hsivonen> who is supplying actual search back end stuff other than Google and Microsoft?
1124. # [16:13] <takkaria_> I thought Ask used google's backend
1125. # [16:13] <hsivonen> Opera defaults to Google to me
1126. # [16:13] <Philip`> As far as I'm aware they have their own backend
1127. # [16:13] <hsivonen> is it Ask just for new installations?
1128. # [16:13] <Dashiva> Yandex? :)
1129. # [16:14] <Lachy> oh, I didn't know we'd switched the speeddial search to Ask.
1130. # [16:14] <Philip`> e.g. http://sp.uk.ask.com/en/docs/about/webmasters.shtml talks about their crawler
1131. # [16:14] <hsivonen> oh. it's Ask in Speed Dial and Google in the toolbar
1132. # [16:14] <hsivonen> that's ... interesting
1133. # [16:15] <Lachy> yeah, I think it's a bit silly to have multiple defaults. But AIUI, it's done for financial reasons of some kind, though that's not my department and I have no idea what deals we have with each search engine.
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1135. # [16:17] <AryehGregor> I wonder where Opera gets its revenue. Google, Microsoft, and Apple all have huge non-browser sources of revenue, and Mozilla gets paid by Google.
1136. # [16:17] <zcorpan__> opera ships on lots of devices
1137. # [16:18] <Lachy> AryehGregor, we get lots of revenue from device manufactures who pay us to put Opera on their devices. e.g. Nintendo Wii, HTC phones, Samsung phones, etc.
1138. # [16:18] <FireFly> There's the wii browser
1139. # [16:18] <AryehGregor> Ah, right.
1140. # [16:18] <Dashiva> I seem to recall seeing a press release that the desktop browser was also in black, though
1141. # [16:18] <AryehGregor> The non-desktop market.
1142. # [16:18] <Dashiva> A few years back
1143. # [16:18] <hsivonen> Opera Link doesn't tell me about crypto
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1145. # [16:19] <Lachy> hsivonen, what would you like to know about it?
1146. # [16:19] <Lachy> If we encrypt the connection between you and Opera Link, or whether the data is stored encrypted on our servers?
1147. # [16:20] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I think the idea was Mozilla gets paid by Google for being the default search engine, and so Opera could do exactly the same (with revenue proportional to market share)
1148. # [16:20] <hsivonen> Lachy: those and whether Opera can decrypt it
1149. # [16:20] <Philip`> (and for search engines other than Google)
1150. # [16:20] <hsivonen> and if Opera can't decrypt it, how does Mini work?
1151. # [16:21] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
1152. # [16:21] <hsivonen> (for comparison, the crypto key for Weave residers on the user's devices)
1153. # [16:21] <hsivonen> *resides
1154. # [16:22] <hsivonen> Does Google already have a way for syncing Chrome and the Android browser?
1155. # [16:23] <hsivonen> this sync stuff is clearly going to make browser choices more sticky, because one has to buy into the product family of one vendor for all devices
1156. # [16:23] <hsivonen> (well, the Weave API is documented, but I'm not aware of any non-Gecko-based browsers implementing a sync client)
1157. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> Cross-browser sync would be awesome. Especially if it actually synced my logins and cookies, not just useless stuff like bookmarks.
1158. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> It could sync my currently open pages. Maybe even my history, for things like the awesome bar/omnibox, but that might be a bit much.
1159. # [16:25] <hsivonen> already works if you run one product family across all your devices
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1161. # [16:25] <hsivonen> I have Weave syncing 3 desktop Firefoxes and one Firefox Mobile
1162. # [16:26] <hsivonen> but then I have a device that has Opera Mobile but not Firefox
1163. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> Well, that only works for Firefox, right? Chrome only supports bookmark sync, I think . . .
1164. # [16:26] <hsivonen> but I can't use Opera Mobile as a Weave client
1165. # [16:26] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: right
1166. # [16:26] <Lachy> hsivonen, I asked internally, and was given this as the answer. http://www.opera.com/privacy/#operalink
1167. # [16:26] <Lachy> they don't seem to want to reveal more than that
1168. # [16:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
1169. # [16:27] <hsivonen> can Opera Link sync passwords?
1170. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=812
1171. # [16:27] <hsivonen> syncing passwords is an awesome feature of Weave
1172. # [16:28] <hsivonen> but I wouldn't sync my passwords using a system where the sync server operator could decrypt
1173. # [16:29] <Creap> let's all put our passwords "in the cloud" :)
1174. # [16:29] <hsivonen> Creap: putting passwords in the cloud is fine if your crypto key doesn't travel to the cloud
1175. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> You'd have to copy a private key between all your computers, then. How would that work?
1176. # [16:31] <AryehGregor> I don't see how it could be as convenient as having a central party know your password.
1177. # [16:31] <Philip`> You could type it in
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1180. # [16:31] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: with Weave, I created an insanely long key that I printed and typed in on the other devices once for each
1181. # [16:31] <AryehGregor> Google already knows my Gmail password anyway, and I can use that to recover practically any of my other logins except for my bank, so . . .
1182. # [16:31] <Philip`> (assuming it's like some kind of master password, not a 4096-bit private key)
1183. # [16:31] <Lachy> hsivonen, we do use SSL connections for syncing between the client and the server, but it seems I can't get an answer about what security measures we take to protect the data on the server.
1184. # [16:32] <AryehGregor> Hmm, yeah, a master password would work.
1185. # [16:32] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
1186. # [16:32] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: Weave has a password that you log into the server with
1187. # [16:33] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: and with that password, you can retrieve encrypted data from the server
1188. # [16:33] <hsivonen> and then you decrypt it with a long passphrase that never travels to the cloud
1189. # [16:34] <hsivonen> as far as I can tell, the scariest part of Weave is losing your mobile device
1190. # [16:34] <AryehGregor> Can you choose to skip the extra passphrase if you don't care about hiding from the cloud?
1191. # [16:34] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: IIRC, no
1192. # [16:34] <AryehGregor> Also, is someone working on integrating this with the system so that it automatically unlocks when you log in?
1193. # [16:34] <AryehGregor> Because having to type a password every time you start your browser is obnoxious.
1194. # [16:35] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: you don't need to
1195. # [16:35] * AryehGregor used master passwords on Firefox and doesn't think the feature exists on Chrome, but doesn't miss it much . . .
1196. # [16:35] <hsivonen> each local browser remembers both the password and the passphase
1197. # [16:35] <hsivonen> which is why losing your mobile device becomes scarier
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1199. # [16:36] <hsivonen> but it's so awesome you want to use it on your mobile device anyway
1200. # [16:36] <AryehGregor> Well, I guess if the attacker can't log in, you're safe. Probably an attacker would prefer to just wipe the thing and sell it. A determined one could access everything, but the same is true if you have your browser remember your passwords . . .
1201. # [16:37] <hsivonen> I don't know how safe e.g. Maemo is against an attacker who possesses the device
1202. # [16:37] <zcorpan__> you'd need a way to lock your device from somewhere else if you lose it
1203. # [16:37] <hsivonen> the Maemo security folks work against threats from the network
1204. # [16:38] <hsivonen> or wipe it, like with MobileMe
1205. # [16:38] <AryehGregor> A determined attacker with physical access can probably break anything except an encrypted disk.
1206. # [16:38] <zcorpan__> preferably also a way to find your device again if you lose it
1207. # [16:38] <Lachy> hsivonen, have you tried 1Password? I believe their system does client side encryption before syncing with a server
1208. # [16:39] <Philip`> A determined attacker can grab your device while you're in the middle of using it and are alerady logged in
1209. # [16:39] <hsivonen> Lachy: not with multiple Macs
1210. # [16:39] <Creap> zcorpan__: when I lost my cellphone, someone found "home" and called to return it.
1211. # [16:39] <hsivonen> Lachy: I installed it once on one Mac
1212. # [16:40] <Lachy> hsivonen, I installed it recently to try it out. But I haven't fully learned about how it all works yet, and it seems to have some annoying UI bugs that I don't like
1213. # [16:40] <Creap> android has some PIN:y thing as a screenlock
1214. # [16:40] <hsivonen> Lachy: but I didn't trust the app would always be compatible with everything, so I didn't want to make it part of my routines
1215. # [16:40] <hsivonen> and instead I use Keychain and Firefox password manager
1216. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> Philip`, not necessarily, unless they have a gun or something, or you leave yourself logged in all the time.
1217. # [16:41] <hsivonen> Maemo has a PIN screenlock, too.
1218. # [16:41] <Lachy> the Firefox password manager stores everything in a barely obfuscated password file.
1219. # [16:41] <Lachy> I use that too, but I'm trying to migrate away from it
1220. # [16:41] <Lachy> well, unless you use a master password, but I found that to be rather intrusive
1221. # [16:42] <hsivonen> on Mac, I use Filevault in case immigration officials take my laptop and store it inappropriately
1222. # [16:43] <Philip`> AryehGregor: You don't need a gun to grab a phone out of somebody's hand when they're not expecting it, or from a table when they're not watching it for a few seconds
1223. # [16:43] <AryehGregor> Firefox master passwords are lousy UI. You have a modal dialog popping up at some random point after you restart the browser every time.
1224. # [16:43] <Philip`> AryehGregor: and then you run away before the owner catches you
1225. # [16:44] <AryehGregor> Philip`, okay, granted.
1226. # [16:44] <AryehGregor> Most of us don't face determined attackers, happily.
1227. # [16:44] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Seems a lot simpler than trying to extract passwords from the device's memory
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1229. # [16:46] <AryehGregor> Not memory, disk, unless that's encrypted.
1230. # [16:46] <workmad3> physical device security is always a problem
1231. # [16:46] <AryehGregor> That's the easiest way, if you have any technical know-how.
1232. # [16:46] <workmad3> that is, until we have a keypad that can read and check your fingerprint on every key-press :)
1233. # [16:46] <AryehGregor> Much less risky, you can steal it whenever and however you feel like.
1234. # [16:47] <AryehGregor> And don't have to worry that maybe they weren't actually logged in.
1235. # [16:47] <AryehGregor> workmad3, fingerprints are easy for a dedicated attacker to forge.
1236. # [16:47] <AryehGregor> Your fingerprints are going to be all over the phone.
1237. # [16:47] <AryehGregor> Just make a mold, doesn't even take a day if you know what you're doing.
1238. # [16:47] <workmad3> ok... easy until the devices are implanted directly into our bodies
1239. # [16:47] <workmad3> better? :P
1240. # [16:47] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that would solve the issue.
1241. # [16:48] <AryehGregor> It would also freak out some Christians, particularly if the devices were used for commerce. :P
1242. # [16:48] <workmad3> heh :)
1243. # [16:48] * workmad3 wants a retina implant for his phone display already
1244. # [16:49] <AryehGregor> Should it treat pt as a physical unit? :)
1245. # [16:49] <gsnedders> hehe
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1247. # [16:51] <workmad3> hmm, that's a point (no pun intended)... are there physical differences in the size of rods and cones, and if so, which should be used?
1248. # [16:52] <AryehGregor> What?
1249. # [16:53] <AryehGregor> It seems rods and cones are about the same size.
1250. # [16:53] <AryehGregor> Wait, hmm.
1251. # [16:53] <AryehGregor> Or maybe cones are much larger, the Wikipedia articles are confusing.
1252. # [16:53] <AryehGregor> (as usual)
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1267. # [17:20] <AryehGregor> "User agents may wait for a suitable break in the user's interaction before queuing the task; for example, a user agent could wait for the user to have not hit a key for 100ms, so as to only fire the event when the user pauses, instead of continuously for each keystroke."
1268. # [17:21] <AryehGregor> So I guess this means we need to use onkeypress or onkeyup instead of oninput?
1269. # [17:21] <AryehGregor> If we really want to have it be per key.
1270. # [17:24] <AryehGregor> I guess there's no event that fires after the input has happened, so that it will reliably fire once each keystroke and event.target.value will be the current value?
1271. # [17:25] <Philip`> Why would you want such a thing?
1272. # [17:25] <Philip`> What do you expect it to do with input methods where you use multiple keystrokes to insert a single character?
1273. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> Just give the current value after whatever the user just entered. Really I want an event whenever the contents of the form field change, with the new value of the field.
1274. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> For using <datalist>.
1275. # [17:26] <Philip`> Why is 100ms latency unacceptable?
1276. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> I want to dispatch the new contents to my backend to ask for suggestions.
1277. # [17:27] <AryehGregor> Because the result has to be thrown out if the form value is no longer the same when the suggestion returns, and there already may be a significant round-trip delay.
1278. # [17:27] <Philip`> You'd have to implement some kind of buffering yourself anyway, because you don't want to send a request to the backend after every keystroke if the user's typing really really fast and has a dialup connection
1279. # [17:29] * AryehGregor tries to figure out if MW already buffers
1280. # [17:30] <AryehGregor> It looks like we usually wait 250 ms, except if the user hits the down arrow.
1281. # [17:31] <AryehGregor> We use keyup, keydown, keypress, blur, and focus, but of course we also use a <div> positioning hack right now to generate the results.
1282. # [17:31] <AryehGregor> Probably we don't need to hook blur and focus with datalist.
1283. # [17:31] <AryehGregor> Using datalists via JS is really ugly, by the way.
1284. # [17:31] <Philip`> Given that pages will have to implement some kind of buffering if some browsers don't buffer themselves, it seems silly for the spec to say "may" - it should require buffering for all browsers or none
1285. # [17:32] <AryehGregor> I'd really prefer just input.suggest = ['Foo', 'Bar'] instead of creating a datalist element, making up an id, giving it the id, setting the input's list attribute, and looping through the result list to add <option> children.
1286. # [17:32] <Philip`> (maybe)
1287. # [17:32] <AryehGregor> Anyway, yeah, "may" is a pain.
1288. # [17:33] <Philip`> Author feedback from attempting to use the element is a good thing to have :-)
1289. # [17:34] <Lachy> AryehGregor, datalist is useful to have when the choices are a fixed list, so they can just be listed in the page and not have to worry about being modified by scripts
1290. # [17:34] <Lachy> but maybe we need an optimised API for the scripted use cases that dynamically change the list
1291. # [17:34] <AryehGregor> Lachy, when does that actually happen? I can't think of a real-world page where it would be useful.
1292. # [17:34] <Lachy> html5.lachy.id.au has uses a fixed list
1293. # [17:34] <AryehGregor> The only use-case I can see for this is suggestions generated as the user types.
1294. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
1295. # [17:35] <Lachy> also, another simple case is a form requesting personal details. The title field could offer defaults of Mr, Mrs, Ms, etc. but still allow users to type in their own
1296. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> Okay, granted, it has some uses, but the script use case seems a lot more compelling.
1297. # [17:35] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Normal UI widget systems have combo boxes, which seem to be what this is similar to
1298. # [17:35] <Philip`> and they're used in lots of places
1299. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> I've seen plenty of sites hack up their own absolutely-positioned divs to do dynamic search suggestions, never seen anyone try it to suggest MIME types or honorifics.
1300. # [17:35] <Philip`> like, um,
1301. # [17:36] <AryehGregor> I still don't know what a combobox is.
1302. # [17:36] * Philip` fails to think of compelling examples of static lists
1303. # [17:36] <Philip`> AryehGregor: It's just a dropdown list you can type arbitrary text into
1304. # [17:37] <AryehGregor> Hmm, okay.
1305. # [17:37] <webben> Rationale: maximize conformity of input without enforcing uniformity.
1306. # [17:37] <webben> e.g. by offering a carot against entry of multiple spellings of a thing
1307. # [17:38] <Philip`> Hmm, the only one I can easily find in my currently-open applications is a "Default Graphic Extension" configuration, which offers eps/pdf/png/jpg/tif but lets you type in other values if you want
1308. # [17:40] <Lachy> AryehGregor, a combobox is just a select list, but which also allows users to type in other values. Your browsers address bar is bascially an example of this.
1309. # [17:40] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
1310. # [17:41] <Lachy> ordinarily, they have drop down arrows on the side, but unfortunatley, Opera's datalist implementation omitted this for some reason
1311. # [17:42] <Philip`> Scripted search suggestions typically don't have arrows on the side
1312. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> Maybe there should be an entirely separate JS-only interface for scripted search suggestions?
1313. # [17:42] <Lachy> AryehGregor, HTMLSelectElement contains APIs for add() and remove(), that simply the process of adding and removing options. Would those help if they were available on datalist, or would you like a more optimised alternative?
1314. # [17:42] <Philip`> Seems problematic if the same HTML control is meant to be used for all the cases
1315. # [17:44] <Lachy> yeah, I suppose. Perhaps that issue is best handled with CSS using the 'appearance' property.
1316. # [17:44] <Lachy> appearance: combo-box; is already defined in the spec
1317. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> Lachy, I'd really just like to be able to do input.suggest = ['foo', 'bar']. I don't see why it should need to be more complicated than that.
1318. # [17:46] <Lachy> how would that interact with the suggestions from the datalist element, if both were used together?
1319. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> I'd expect the scripted results would override the datalist ones.
1320. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> But I dunno, just don't use them together. :)
1321. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> Doesn't matter much for authors, it just needs to be unambiguous.
1322. # [17:47] <Lachy> maybe it could merge the two sets of suggestions, like Firefox's search box does, when it lists previous searches, then a separator line, and then the google suggest results.
1323. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> I dunno. It's hard to say without use-cases.
1324. # [17:48] <AryehGregor> I mean, maybe the browser could merge datalist suggestions with its own too, right?
1325. # [17:48] <Lachy> yeah, I think the spec says it can do that
1326. # [17:48] <AryehGregor> Actually, I guess the spec permits that, doesn't it?
1327. # [17:49] <Philip`> Are people really going to use datalist if its behaviour is so unpredictable?
1328. # [17:50] <Philip`> I'd hope it works consistently everywhere, otherwise people would be better off writing their own implementations in JS
1329. # [17:50] <Lachy> for existing scripted implementations, do you know what the responses from the server looks like? Do they commonly just return JSON, or even just an serialised array, and then use eval(...) to parse it?
1330. # [17:50] <AryehGregor> Lachy, that's what mwsuggest.js does.
1331. # [17:50] <AryehGregor> JSON in our case.
1332. # [17:50] <AryehGregor> So allowing a literal list to be assigned would be ideal.
1333. # [17:51] <Lachy> ok. Do you know what Google Suggest uses?
1334. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> No idea.
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1336. # [17:54] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/complete/search?q=what
1337. # [17:56] <Lachy> I found an article explaining it http://serversideguy.blogspot.com/2004/12/google-suggest-dissected.html
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1339. # [17:59] <Philip`> It's changed a little bit since 2004
1340. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> Interesting that they just use a loop instead of key events.
1341. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> Er, right, used.
1342. # [18:02] <Lachy> AryehGregor, does your use case involve replacing the entire suggestion list each time the data is updated, or would you want the ability to selectively add and remove options?
1343. # [18:03] <AryehGregor> Lachy, replacing the whole thing is fine, typically.
1344. # [18:03] <AryehGregor> If it's just a list, I don't see why you couldn't use normal list methods, though.
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1347. # [18:04] <Philip`> Are there any existing list-taking APIs in HTML?
1348. # [18:05] <Philip`> Seems tricky to make the reflection work right
1349. # [18:06] <AryehGregor> Why would it be tricky?
1350. # [18:06] <Philip`> e.g. if people say x=[]; input.suggest=x; x.push('cheese'); // does suggest update?
1351. # [18:06] <Philip`> or x=input.suggest; x.push('cheese'); // does suggest update?
1352. # [18:06] <Philip`> or input.suggest.push('cheese'); // surely this should update?
1353. # [18:06] <AryehGregor> Don't the same questions apply to strings?
1354. # [18:06] <Philip`> No
1355. # [18:06] <Philip`> Strings are immutable
1356. # [18:06] <Lachy> I don't think that would work.
1357. # [18:06] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
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1359. # [18:07] <Philip`> Immutability makes everything easy
1360. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> So every single API in HTML only takes immutable objects?
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1362. # [18:07] <Philip`> (Well, everything except mutations)
1363. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> Just say it copies the list on assignment, if you want.
1364. # [18:08] <Lachy> I'd expect input.suggest to use a specialised interface, not a normal array
1365. # [18:08] <Philip`> AryehGregor: They take immutable strings/numbers, or objects with special interfaces that define their own mutation semantics
1366. # [18:08] <AryehGregor> Lachy, as long as you can assign an array to it and have it work, be auto-converted or such. Does that sound reasonable?
1367. # [18:08] <Lachy> but I would expect the setter for input.suggest to accept an array, and to return a collection on getting.
1368. # [18:08] <Lachy> not sure what type of collection to return though
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1370. # [18:09] <Philip`> AryehGregor: If it copies the list on assignment, would you still expect normal list methods to work? (input.suggest.push etc)
1371. # [18:09] <Lachy> AryehGregor, I suggest you clearly document the use case and problem to be solved, and document the proposed solution along with it.
1372. # [18:09] <AryehGregor> k.
1373. # [18:09] <Lachy> write it up in the wiki
1374. # [18:09] <AryehGregor> I was planning on posting to whatwg.
1375. # [18:09] <Lachy> yeah, that'll do too
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1396. # [18:57] <Dashiva> Arguing about intent with regard to XHTML served as text/html, when XML itself completely ignores intent...
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1402. # [19:35] <JonathanNeal> Heyo
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1448. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> Wait, so the list IDL property of inputs isn't settable?
1449. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> readonly attribute HTMLElement list;
1450. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> That might explain my problems.
1451. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> I assumed it reflected the list DOM attribute.
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1459. # [21:49] <Philip`> AryehGregor: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-input-element-attributes.html#dom-input-list says what it does
1460. # [21:50] <Philip`> and indeed it doesn't say it reflects anything
1461. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I eventually figured that out. :)
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1485. # [23:50] * Quits: JonathanNeal (n=Jonathan@rrcs-76-79-114-213.west.biz.rr.com) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
1486. # [23:52] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@173-13-232-33-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
1487. # [23:57] * Joins: yoshu_ (n=josh@174-18-213-200.tcso.qwest.net)
1488. # Session Close: Fri Jan 22 00:00:00 2010

The end :)