/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-05 / end

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1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 05 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: because it's obvious that text is highlighted, but not at all obvious that text is hidden
4. # [00:04] <Hixie> othermaciej: and i needed a way to remind myself that text was hidden when i was in UA mode so i wouldn't spend hours looking for text that was hidden
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9. # [00:20] <othermaciej> Hixie: heh, I see
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24. # [02:03] <jarib> z~
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32. # [02:33] <MikeSmith> are there any command-line utilities that, given a file, will report the character encoding of the file?
33. # [02:35] <jcranmer> file, maybe?
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36. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> jcranmer: indeed
37. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> thanks
38. # [02:44] * MikeSmith did not know about the --mime-encoding switch in file
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43. # [03:03] <Hixie> Philip`: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/pages/tagattr/img/longdesc 500
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65. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> file command doesn't seem to know the difference between a us-ascii file and a utf-8 one
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68. # [04:13] <wirepair> file -bi doesn't work?
69. # [04:15] * MikeSmith tries file -bi
70. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> wirepair: nope
71. # [04:16] <wirepair> and isn't us-ascii part of utf-8? heh
72. # [04:16] <jcranmer> presumably it can't tell if there are no high-bit characters
73. # [04:17] <wirepair> yeah or there's no BOM
74. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> validator.nu seems to be smarter - http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fhtml-markup%2F
75. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> too smart for its own damn good
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78. # [04:21] <wirepair> no it's not
79. # [04:21] <wirepair> it's reading the servers charset tag
80. # [04:21] <wirepair> ;>
81. # [04:22] <wirepair> Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
82. # [04:22] <wirepair> that's why it disagree's i imagine
83. # [04:22] <wirepair> er disagrees
84. # [04:22] <wirepair> i see no bom nor non-ascii codes in that html file
85. # [04:22] <wirepair> only reference to utf-8 is the server's content-type header
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91. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> wirepair: ah
92. # [04:44] <wirepair> just my guess though ;>
93. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> wirepair: I'm not familiar with that part of the validator.nu
94. # [04:46] <wirepair> oh duh it's right there
95. # [04:46] <wirepair> under parser
96. # [04:46] <wirepair> says parser: 'automatically from content-type'
97. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> but the fact that hsivonen has is reporting, "disagrees with the actual encoding of the document", made me think that he must have it doing something to actually check the encoding, not just relying on the headers
98. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> wirepair: I think that only is used for deciding whether to parse is as text/html or as XML
99. # [04:47] <wirepair> gotcha
100. # [04:47] * MikeSmith makes note to ask hsivonen about it when he gets back
101. # [04:48] <wirepair> that site isn't very helpful
102. # [04:48] <MikeSmith> which site?
103. # [04:48] <wirepair> validator
104. # [04:48] <MikeSmith> what's not useful about it?
105. # [04:48] <wirepair> the fact that it doesn't tell you where it decided it matches utf-8
106. # [04:48] <wirepair> and not ascii
107. # [04:49] <wirepair> because i'm looking at the raw bytes, and i see no multibytes just straight up ascii heh
108. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> yeah, it probably could provide more details
109. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> I guess I should just go ahead and look at the htmlparser code and see for myself
110. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> hmm, there's not "ack" macports port, it seems
111. # [04:52] * MikeSmith falls back to find . | xargs grep
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117. # [04:57] <MikeSmith> wirepair: http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/546412142175/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/io/Driver.java
118. # [04:57] <MikeSmith> in case you're curious
119. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> it seems that at the point where it emits that error, it hasn't recorded how it actually determined the encoding
120. # [04:58] * MikeSmith looks at getActualHtmlEncoding()
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122. # [05:04] <wirepair> found something?
123. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> it's using InputSource.getEncoding()
124. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> from org.xml.sax
125. # [05:08] <MikeSmith> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/org/xml/sax/InputSource.html#getEncoding()
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127. # [05:08] <MikeSmith> I have no clue what means getEncoding actually uses to determine the encoding
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129. # [05:09] <wirepair> yeh,, no idea heh
130. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> actually, it's just a simple getter
131. # [05:15] <wirepair> wtf
132. # [05:15] <wirepair> heh
133. # [05:16] <wirepair> so something is supplyin gthe stream with an encoding ?
134. # [05:16] <wirepair> kinda makes the whole validation thing moot doesn't it?
135. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> the magic is here: http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/546412142175/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/io/HtmlInputStreamReader.java
136. # [05:17] <wirepair> i didn't see a BOM so...
137. # [05:17] <wirepair> again, would be better if the validator says where it no longer matches the expected type
138. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> It seems to be using jchardet and/or ICU4J
139. # [05:18] <wirepair> so people wouldn't have to look through the validator code to figure out how it's determining hehe
140. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> true
141. # [05:18] <wirepair> i say just wait ;>
142. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> well, at this point, I'm reasonably sure it is actually doing genuine character-encoding detection, not just relying on the Content-Type header
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144. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> actually, I already knew that, because there are times when it will report that the character-encoding in the Content-Type header doesn't match the actual encoding of the document
145. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> anyway, I need to get some grub
146. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> wirepair: btw, you have a lot of sento in Oota-ku
147. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> a number of which are real onsen
148. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> well, real onsen water
149. # [05:22] <wirepair> ah not much of an onsen person
150. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> http://www21.ocn.ne.jp/~spa-mich/todofuken/tokyo/tokyo.htm
151. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> I am nuts for onsen
152. # [05:23] <wirepair> ha
153. # [05:23] <wirepair> i'll show the wife
154. # [05:23] <wirepair> thanks ;>
155. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> yeah, for some reason you all have more onsen-sento there than any other part of the city, by a wide margin
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157. # [05:25] <wirepair> weird..
158. # [05:25] <wirepair> wonder why that is
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162. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> wirepair: I think one reason might be that Oota-ku is just really big
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164. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> geographically
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168. # [05:56] <wirepair> how long you been in japan mike?
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170. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> wirepair: 8 years
171. # [05:59] <wirepair> wow, quite a bit of time ;>
172. # [05:59] <wirepair> 2x me hehe
173. # [05:59] <wirepair> i imagine your japanese must be pretty damn good by now hehe
174. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> wirepair: my Japanese is actually pretty bad
175. # [06:02] <wirepair> didn't study or gave up studying?
176. # [06:02] <wirepair> hehe
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178. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> I studied some, but mostly learned on the job and from my daughter, who's 12 years old now
179. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> she and I only speak Japanese to each other
180. # [06:04] <wirepair> interesting
181. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> she understands a lot of English, but doesn't speak English much
182. # [06:04] <wirepair> yeah i've seen that, where the child understand what you say, but will just answer in japanese
183. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
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187. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> she is starting to study English more, and will be studying it at school when she starts junior-high in April
188. # [06:05] <wirepair> crazy
189. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> she teaches me a lot of words, actually
190. # [06:05] <wirepair> i imagine her pronounciation will be better than most
191. # [06:05] <wirepair> hehe
192. # [06:06] <wirepair> funny i was teaching a family in laws kid a little english (he's like 3) and his father was there, i said truck in english pronounciation, and his father said it in japanese
193. # [06:06] <wirepair> the kid was like 'which is it?!'
194. # [06:06] <MikeSmith> heh
195. # [06:06] <wirepair> he thought they were completely different words
196. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> yeah, it's like orange, or cake, or many others
197. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> truck is a tough one, though
198. # [06:07] <wirepair> yup
199. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> "tr" is just not amenable to katakana-ized pronunciation
200. # [06:08] <wirepair> chi-a-ru
201. # [06:08] <wirepair> hehe
202. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> but I think it's good for kids to learn that people pronounce the same words in different ways
203. # [06:09] <wirepair> yeah definitely
204. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> it's definitely confusing when they are young, though
205. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> one example is the way some Japanese teachers of English in secondary schools pronounce the word "the"
206. # [06:11] <wirepair> za-?
207. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> which is like "za"
208. # [06:11] <wirepair> yeah
209. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> yeah
210. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> some people think it's just wrong to teach kids to pronounce it that way
211. # [06:12] <wirepair> i don't think too highly of the japanese educational system to be honest though
212. # [06:12] <wirepair> not from the things i've heard
213. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> yeah, the system has some problems, for sure
214. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> but about particular case of "za", I don't think it's a big deal at all
215. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> because for one thing, it's also the way some European non-native-English speakers say it soo
216. # [06:13] <wirepair> yeah, i'm more concerned with my child sitting for 8hours and then being expected to regurgitate the information back
217. # [06:13] <wirepair> ;>
218. # [06:13] <wirepair> not that i have any at the moment, but when i do heh
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220. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> well, my own secondary education wasn't exactly a thrill ride
221. # [06:15] <wirepair> at the time i thought mine was terrible, looking back and hearing other peoples experiences i guess it was pretty damn good
222. # [06:15] <wirepair> heh
223. # [06:15] <MikeSmith> I had teachers who were supposedly better trained and more enlightened, but still most of them sucked at actually teaching
224. # [06:15] <wirepair> i only had a few like that
225. # [06:15] <MikeSmith> teaching well is a rare talent
226. # [06:15] <wirepair> indeed.
227. # [06:16] <MikeSmith> I taught high school on contract for 3 years or so
228. # [06:16] <wirepair> ah so you got to see it firsthand ;>
229. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> well, it was enough for me to realize I couldn't do it well, and needing to find some other way to earn money
230. # [06:17] <wirepair> ahha
231. # [06:17] <wirepair> gotcha
232. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> anyway, in 6 years of primary school, my daughter has had some pretty good teachers, and some pretty bad ones
233. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> the teachers do make a big difference
234. # [06:18] <wirepair> yeah
235. # [06:18] <MikeSmith> last year, her teacher was a young-guy, first-year teacher, and he didn't really know what he was doing, and her grades went down
236. # [06:18] <wirepair> ahh that's a shame
237. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> this year, she had a much older, more experienced, no-nonsense teacher and she learned a lot more and turned all her grades around
238. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> I know there are some good teachers in secondary schools here, too
239. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> along with mediocre and bad ones
240. # [06:21] <MikeSmith> it's partly just the luck of the draw, I guess
241. # [06:21] <wirepair> yeah i'd like to know what the curriculum is like, my understanding is there's little to know real teaching of the scientific process until college
242. # [06:21] <wirepair> s/know/no
243. # [06:22] <wirepair> but hey what do i know, i never even went to college ;>
244. # [06:22] <MikeSmith> I think the system expects -- or even requires -- a lot more personal responsibility on the part of students and their parents
245. # [06:23] <wirepair> yeah, unfortunately what i've seen here is an unbelievable amount of pressure on teachers to take care of kids
246. # [06:23] <MikeSmith> the thing I value most about my college experience was the many opportunities it provided for relaxed dope smoking
247. # [06:23] <wirepair> hahah
248. # [06:24] <wirepair> see i did that in private school for 2 years, i got it out of my system
249. # [06:24] <wirepair> then i got a job during the bubble, it bust, and all my friends got out of college and couldn't find jobs when i had 4 years experience ;>
250. # [06:25] <wirepair> my timing was impeccable
251. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> you planned that well
252. # [06:26] <wirepair> just very lucky
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276. # [08:20] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: check out the status on this: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html-bidi-20100304/#bidi-isolation
277. # [08:20] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: "This document is an editors' copy that has no official standing."
278. # [08:21] <othermaciej> that's probably not right
279. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> oops
280. # [08:21] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: also I surprisingly hadn't heard about that document
281. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> I will fix it in-place now
282. # [08:21] * othermaciej wonders why the proposals in that document weren't proposed to the HTML WG and hopes they will be at some point
283. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I probably should not admit this, but the first I saw of that doc was this announcement
284. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> I think Richard mentioned something about it to me, but it didn't register as being something closely related to HTML
285. # [08:23] <othermaciej> glad it's not just me
286. # [08:24] <othermaciej> Looking at the TransReq Philippe did say it should be be brought to the attention of the HTML WG
287. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> well
288. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> it's odd that they chose to publish it as WD first
289. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> the "bring to attention of the HTML WG" step would seem like it should have better occurred first
290. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> wait
291. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> it's about bidi
292. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> so they are doing everything backwards
293. # [08:27] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.90.41) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
294. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> sorry, not backwards, just different-wards
295. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> it's all relative
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298. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I wanted to ask you about the character-detection mechanism that validator.nu uses
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301. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fhtml-markup%2F
302. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> "Internal encoding declaration us-ascii disagrees with the actual encoding of the document (utf-8)"
303. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> but that document actually has no non-ascii characters in it, and no BOM
304. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> so I assume the character-detection code is actually also using the Content-type header
305. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> not just checking the "actual encoding" of the document
306. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> if so, I'm wondering if that error message might be refined to say, "disagrees with the actual encoding of the document and/or the Content-Type header the document is being served with (utf-8)"
307. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> or something similar
308. # [08:38] <hsivonen> I guess the actual encoding is the one named on the http level in this case
309. # [08:38] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: pong
310. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
311. # [08:39] <hsivonen> maybe 'actual' is a philosophical/onntological question and the message should say something else
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314. # [08:39] <othermaciej> heh, bidi
315. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, the word "actual" is what threw me
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317. # [08:40] <hsivonen> in this case, actual means the encoding that's actually used for decoding
318. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> ah
319. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> that's more like maybe "effective"
320. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> I can't think of any great suggestions other than that one
321. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> which is not great
322. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'm not sure it's worth changing
323. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> I had just been wondering
324. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I wanted to tell you I made some more changes to the markup doc based on the errors you reported a while back
325. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/syntax.html#doctype-syntax
326. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> my rationale for organizing the description of doctypes that way (instead of the way Hixie has it) is that I wanted to try to have the description of what a "normal" HTML doctype is to be as simple as possible
327. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> I don't know if "normal doctype" is the best choice as far a terminology
328. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> but anyway, I did correct the description of "deprecated doctype" to remove any reference to the XML definition of what a docytpe is
329. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/syntax.html#deprecated-doctype
330. # [08:47] <annevk> the piece on W3C news about H:TML says more about what it is not than what it is :/
331. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> heh
332. # [08:47] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9145
333. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> annevk: my fault, since it's word-for-word from the abstract
334. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: looking now
335. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> OK
336. # [08:49] * MikeSmith makes that same change now
337. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: "computed encoding"?
338. # [08:50] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: "Conditionally, depending on whether it is part of a permitted-public-ID-system-ID-combination, the following parts, in exactly the following order:" doesn't say whether the condition is true or false
339. # [08:50] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: maybe "If it (what?) is part of a permitted-..."
340. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> yeah
341. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> problem is, I don't know how to describe that condition
342. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> the condition is basically, if it ends up looking like one of the doctypes in the list below that, then true
343. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> otherwise false
344. # [08:52] <zcorpan> it's a bit confusing
345. # [08:52] <zcorpan> i think Hixie's text is less confusing, at least to me :)
346. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> I may end up changing it to that
347. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> I wanted to first try to see if there were any way to make it any clearer
348. # [08:54] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: maybe you could have two tables, one for html which has optional SI, and one for xhtml which doesn't
349. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah
350. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> that would be slightly better at least
351. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I also changed the description of what a conformant XML document is (the other error you reported)
352. # [08:56] <hsivonen> I wonder if a MacBook can be fooled to switch its VNC resolution to something higher than the res of the built-in screen without connecting anything to the mini-DVI port
353. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/documents.html#syntax-document-xml
354. # [08:56] <othermaciej> annevk: looks like it's about 50/50 between what it is and what it isn't
355. # [08:57] <othermaciej> it is funny that the one document not produced by the HTML WG (and something of a surprise to us) has by far the longest description
356. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I am planning to make a couple more tweaks based on the other message you sent, about "this specification does not define any additional syntax-level requirements"
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358. # [08:59] <annevk> othermaciej, the W3C clearly hates HTML5 much like it hates babies
359. # [09:00] <othermaciej> annevk: I thought that was Adobe
360. # [09:00] <annevk> oh, they're not the same?
361. # [09:00] <othermaciej> heh
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363. # [09:00] <othermaciej> seriously though, HTML5 plus three other documents get less total space in the description than any other drafts
364. # [09:00] * zcorpan wonders what he has to do to see the browser choice screen
365. # [09:02] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html-bidi-20100304/#br-as-separator - wonder if that matches what html5 says
366. # [09:03] <annevk> zcorpan, visit http://www.browserchoice.eu/ ?
367. # [09:04] <othermaciej> I dunno, it's funny that they used HTML4 as their baseline reference
368. # [09:04] <annevk> zcorpan, I think dbaron mentioned that HTML5 should say something about that (iirc)
369. # [09:04] <annevk> zcorpan, not sure if it was followed through
370. # [09:04] <zcorpan> annevk: i thought i'd get something automatically by setting ie to default browser and doing a windows update
371. # [09:05] <annevk> zcorpan, oh like that
372. # [09:05] <annevk> zcorpan, dunno
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375. # [09:06] <zcorpan> how many of the non-top-5 browsers in the screen use trident?
376. # [09:06] <paul_irish> maxthon does
377. # [09:07] <zcorpan> yes, and flock doesn't, what about the others?
378. # [09:07] <zcorpan> k-meleon also doesn't
379. # [09:07] <zcorpan> avant is trident
380. # [09:08] <zcorpan> looks like sleipnir is a trident browser
381. # [09:09] <zcorpan> flashpeak too
382. # [09:09] <paul_irish> and maybe AOL?
383. # [09:10] <othermaciej> there are several trident browsers, according to the news
384. # [09:11] <othermaciej> did they fix the randomization on that page yet?
385. # [09:12] <zcorpan> trident: 6, gecko: 3, webkit: 2, presto: 1
386. # [09:13] <othermaciej> zcorpan: looks like it doesn't match HTML5 - "A br element does not separate paragraphs for the purposes of the Unicode bidirectional algorithm. [BIDI]" http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-br-element
387. # [09:16] * annevk wonders what browsers implement now
388. # [09:16] <othermaciej> according to the bidi requirements draft, WebKit and IE do not implement the HTML5/HTML4 rule but instead do treat <br> as a paragraph break for bidi algorithm purposes
389. # [09:17] <othermaciej> the draft also says this behavior is better (I think)
390. # [09:19] <annevk> I see
391. # [09:20] <annevk> I wonder why they want through the trouble of publishing a separate document rather than sending feedback on HTML5...
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393. # [09:25] <othermaciej> I dunno
394. # [09:26] <othermaciej> this could be, like, 10-20 bug reports
395. # [09:26] <othermaciej> most of which would be uncontroversial except perhaps trivial syntax details
396. # [09:27] <othermaciej> (for example the proposed bdi attribute should be a standard html-style boolean attribute; shouldn't use attributes with underscore; etc)
397. # [09:28] <annevk> some of the guidelines should not be in HTML I think, e.g. the bit about <pre> in http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html-bidi-20100304/#newline-as-separator seems like it should be in CSS
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399. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: how's the following sound?
400. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> [[
401. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> A conformant document in the XML syntax must be a well-formed XML document, as defined in the XML specification [XML], and its root element, as defined in the XML specification [XML], must be an html element.
402. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> ]]
403. # [09:33] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the next paragraph seems to repeat the well-formedness requirement
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405. # [09:34] <roc> 'bdi' is a terrible name
406. # [09:34] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: how about saying it must be namespace-well-formed, once?
407. # [09:34] <roc> some of these issues were discussed briefly on public-html ages ago
408. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: OK
409. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> roc: yeah
410. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> I recall now Richard mentioning the <br> issue to me a while back
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414. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> zcorpan:
415. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> "A conformant document in the XML syntax must be a namespace-well-formed XML document, as defined in the XML specification [XML] and Namespaces in XML 1.0 specification [XMLNS], and its root element must be an html element."
416. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> and I turned the "Documents in the XML syntax must not make use of any features of the HTML syntax that do not follow XML well-formedness constraints (for example, documents in the XML syntax must not use unquoted attribute value syntax and must not omit tags).
417. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> " part into a note
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420. # [09:45] <zcorpan> s/as defined in the XML specification [XML] and //
421. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> OK
422. # [09:46] <zcorpan> isn't the root element required by the content models, btw?
423. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: it's otherwise not explicitly stated anywhere for the XML/XHTML document case
424. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> it is stated explicitly for the text/html case -
425. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> file:///opt/workspace/html5/markup/documents.html#conformant-documents
426. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> oops
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428. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/documents.html#syntax-document-html
429. # [09:51] * zcorpan gets a twitter account
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435. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: "operative encoding"
436. # [09:59] <Philip`> Hixie: The analyse.cgi stuff is intentionally broken since I moved to a new server and don't really want to bother setting up all the databases and everything
437. # [09:59] <Philip`> It's fixable but it depends on whether anybody cares enough
438. # [10:01] * annevk follows zcorpan
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440. # [10:05] <Hixie> Philip`: k
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474. # [11:51] <mut> #
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476. # [11:51] <jgraham> !
477. # [11:51] <annevk> ~
478. # [11:52] <mut> $(':(').show();
479. # [11:52] <jgraham> ‽
480. # [11:52] <annevk> you usually hide sad faces
481. # [11:53] <jgraham> Only if you're a clown
482. # [11:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's a Javascript library, duh. $ is awesome. :P
483. # [11:53] <gsnedders> Normally my eyes are _above_ my mouth.
484. # [11:54] * jgraham is horribly confused
485. # [11:54] * gsnedders is good at making jgraham horribly confused
486. # [11:54] <jgraham> You are quite the confusing person
487. # [11:55] <mut> im about to get trout slappy
488. # [11:55] <beowulf> i haven't been slapped by a wet trout in years
489. # [11:55] <mut> "This program has stopped responding" <----- :(
490. # [11:55] <jgraham> Fun game: read ꦕꦫꦏꦤ꧀
491. # [11:56] <beowulf> does the internet still have such things?
492. # [11:56] <jgraham> (gsnedders isn't allowed to play)
493. # [11:56] <mut> would you like to lose all of your work
494. # [11:56] <gsnedders> Spoil sport.
495. # [11:56] * mut troutslaps beowulf
496. # [11:56] <mut> ;)
497. # [11:56] * workmad3 slaps mut around a bit with a wet trout
498. # [11:56] <mut> haha
499. # [11:56] <gsnedders> jgraham is such a mean guy.
500. # [11:56] <mut> ewwww moist
501. # [11:56] <workmad3> you need to get a troutslap right :P
502. # [11:57] <mut> ah im on a java applet, no troutslaps
503. # [11:57] <workmad3> well, I just type em in manuallp
504. # [11:57] <workmad3> *manually
505. # [11:57] * jgraham feels his game may have been lost in YAMPITS
506. # [11:57] <workmad3> but I think mIRC used to have a /slap command to do it for you :)
507. # [11:57] <mut> show a man a troutslap button, he will troutslap for a day, teach a man /me, and he will troutslap for life
508. # [11:58] <beowulf> lol
509. # [11:58] <gsnedders> jgraham: That's what you get for posting arbitary Unicode codepoints
510. # [11:59] <jgraham> They're not arbitay. That's the point :)
511. # [11:59] <gsnedders> Well, seeming I'm forbidden from playing, you could probably guess I know what they are.
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513. # [12:00] <annevk> jgraham, for that I would have to be funny
514. # [12:00] <beowulf> jgraham: ok, explain the game, i didn't get to kill or blow anyone up
515. # [12:01] <Philip`> Google is worringly fast
516. # [12:01] <jgraham> annevk: Now you confused me
517. # [12:01] <gsnedders> Go annevk!
518. # [12:01] <Philip`> I searched for jgraham's string and it found the IRC logs from here
519. # [12:02] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@vpn2119.itmc.tu-dortmund.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
520. # [12:02] <jgraham> That's how Hixie reads irc
521. # [12:04] * annevk waits for jgraham to implode
522. # [12:05] * mut sidesteps away from jgraham
523. # [12:06] * annevk advices people with nicks starting with a "j" to invoke /nick
524. # [12:07] <zcorpan> jgraham: is it carakan?
525. # [12:07] <gsnedders> zcorpan: yes.
526. # [12:07] <zcorpan> yay
527. # [12:08] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@112-68-244-233.eonet.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
528. # [12:09] <annevk> MessagePort.onmessage is somewhat ugly
529. # [12:09] <annevk> but I guess it works
530. # [12:11] <jgraham> zcorpan: Specifically is is the word "carakan" spelt out in Carakan symbols
531. # [12:13] <jgraham> Sadly I can't find any fonts with support for it
532. # [12:17] <Philip`> jgraham: Could probably make one easily by renumbering the font in http://hanacaraka.fateback.com/dok&down.htm
533. # [12:20] <jgraham> Intersting
534. # [12:21] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
535. # [12:22] <Philip`> Not really, because there's no reason to ever read or write anything in that language
536. # [12:24] <jgraham> Sure there is. Just 30 minutes ago it would have helped you understand this very channel
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538. # [12:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's what I thought yesterday.
539. # [12:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: If you're in school in Java it's useful
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543. # [12:48] <virtuelv> Opera's IRC client has /slap which slaps you around a bit with a wet trout
544. # [12:49] <virtuelv> Aren't google going to start realtime indexing of results, soon?
545. # [12:49] <virtuelv> as in you can use PubSubHubbub
546. # [12:50] <jgraham> Yes
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548. # [12:52] * zcorpan slaps a large trout around a bit with virtuelv
549. # [12:53] * jgraham thinks he has accidentially discovered that there are two bands called Camera Obscura
550. # [12:53] <gsnedders> By Spotify being confused
551. # [12:53] <gsnedders> ?
552. # [12:53] <zcorpan> virtuelv: it's large, not wet
553. # [12:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes
554. # [12:53] <gsnedders> I see that too often
555. # [12:54] <jgraham> It's a little jarring when you go from melodic Scottish pop to... something
556. # [12:54] <jgraham> s/pop/indie pop/ or something
557. # [12:57] <jgraham> Ah "post hardcore" apparentley
558. # [12:57] <jgraham> At least according to wikipedia
559. # [12:57] <gsnedders> Oh dear.
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561. # [12:57] <jgraham> Oh dear isn't even close
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583. # [13:36] <mut> haha sweet, my canvas page works on my android phone! :)
584. # [15:41] * Disconnected
585. # [15:44] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
586. # [15:44] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
587. # [15:44] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
588. # [15:44] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
589. # [15:45] <Lachy> it just seems like the DE proponents won't be happy with anything less than XML-style namespaces, despite having so many extensibility points in HTML5 already.
590. # [15:45] <zcorpan> http://chikuyonok.ru/ambilight/
591. # [15:46] <Lachy> nice.
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593. # [15:48] <gsnedders> Lachy: There's a lot of specs already written that are designed for the current namespace structure within the DOM, and none of the HTML5 extensbility points allow me to put, e.g., dc into HTML5
594. # [15:48] <LoneStar99> Morning all!
595. # [15:49] <Lachy> gsnedders, so? I consider that a feature, not a bug
596. # [15:49] <gsnedders> Lachy: But what do I do when I want to add DC to my markup?
597. # [15:49] <LoneStar99> Can anything be drawn on canvas which does not use " beginPath(); "?
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599. # [15:50] <gsnedders> Lachy: So that I can take my HTML document and pass the DOM into my existing toolchain?
600. # [15:50] <Lachy> what do you want to add DC markup for in the first place, which isn't catered for by existing metadata elements in HTML, or which couldn't be addressed through microformats or microdata?
601. # [15:52] <gsnedders> Lachy: The summary of a section cannot be fetched programmatically; µf and µdata both require forks in my codebase at a DOM level for handling HTML differently to generic XML.
602. # [15:52] <Philip`> LoneStar99: Not sure what you mean
603. # [15:53] <Philip`> LoneStar99: You ought to use beginPath every time you start drawing a new path, but things like drawImage and fillRect don't use paths
604. # [15:53] <Lachy> gsnedders, are you giving a serious use case here and actually arguing that we should support namespaces in HTML, or are you just being hypothetical?
605. # [15:53] <LoneStar99> in other words, can a drawing "sketching" be done without using "beginPath();" "moveTo" and "lineTo"
606. # [15:53] <Philip`> LoneStar99: You could do it by just drawing images or drawing lots of little rectangles, but that'd be a silly way to draw lines compared to using lineTo :-)
607. # [15:53] <gsnedders> Lachy: I'm trying to show you there are serious use cases here, and that people do have codepaths to deal with these things and supporting the HTML 5 way of doing things leads to little gain but a lot of additional complexity.
608. # [15:55] <Lachy> sure, but the additional complexity of trying to support namespaces in HTML, compared with the little gained by supported those largely obscure and insignificant cases in practice, proves it's just not worth it
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610. # [15:55] <gsnedders> No, the additional complexity _depends_ upon the serialization chosen.
611. # [15:56] <Lachy> then don't choose HTML if you depend on XML-specific features
612. # [15:56] <jgraham> Requiring namespaces introduces a lot of complexity for authors
613. # [15:56] <jgraham> By comparison I have rather little sympathy for implementors
614. # [15:56] <gsnedders> Lachy: Feeds online are not an obscure or insignificant case, and currently require duplicated data
615. # [15:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: Indeed, I think there are plenty of ways to cope with namespaces without additional complexity for authors in the pure-HTML case.
616. # [15:57] <Lachy> gsnedders, wtf do feeds have to do with supporting namespaces in the HTML serialisation?
617. # [15:57] <jgraham> e.g. not having namespaces?
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619. # [15:57] <jgraham> (and I also don't get the relevance of feeds)
620. # [15:58] <LoneStar99> Philip`: how would I be able to drawing a sketching "drawing" tons of rectangles?
621. # [15:58] <LoneStar99> with
622. # [15:58] <gsnedders> Lachy: Why do I have to post both an HTML and Atom edition of my blog for feed readers? Why can feed readers not programmatically read content from the HTML?
623. # [15:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: Because HTML parsers are rubbish and buggy
624. # [15:59] <Philip`> or slow
625. # [16:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: They can. There is no problem here
626. # [16:00] <gsnedders> Philip`: All OS X feed readers have a decent HTML parser available at an OS level; I presume the same is true on Windows with mshtml.ddl
627. # [16:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: But they cannot extract all the semantics they can get with Atom
628. # [16:01] <jgraham> But DE wouldn't magically make that happen because in practice no one would use the extensions anyway
629. # [16:01] <Philip`> gsnedders: Does it provide an actual standalone HTML parser than gives you back a DOM and is just as easy to use as XML parser libraries?
630. # [16:01] <jgraham> An author that cares can already use the HTML->Atom conversion algorithm to get almost everything
631. # [16:01] <LoneStar99> Philip': issue I have with "beginPath();" is that my code used to work without a "moveTo();" the code now, needs a " moveTo();" and notice on drawings, line are automatically connected when they should not be connected
632. # [16:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: My memory from when I looked at it before was that it wasn't very hard.
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646. # [16:13] <Lachy> gsnedders, there have been various attempts at doing that (hAtom, the "extract an Atom feed" algorithm in HTML5), but so far it seems the market isn't really interested in pushing those kinds of techniques. Besides having a CMS generate an Atom feed automatically is a solved problem that authors just don't have to worry about.
647. # [16:17] <gsnedders> So duplicated data isn't a problem when we have tools?
648. # [16:20] <Lachy> if it wasn't already a solved problem, I'd care more about the duplication
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651. # [16:29] <Philip`> gsnedders: Data isn't duplicated - there's a single copy of each blog post in the database
652. # [16:29] <Philip`> and so you can avoid all the problems like duplicates getting out of sync with each other
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663. # [16:48] <mut> anyone know of a good canvas tutorial?
664. # [16:53] <LoneStar99> mut: what u trying to do with canvas?
665. # [16:54] <miketaylr> mut: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/html-5-canvas-the-basics/ && https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Canvas_tutorial are pretty good
666. # [16:54] <mut> im drawing staircases in canvas
667. # [16:55] <mut> but just thinking of some other things to do, which are currently beyond me :P
668. # [16:55] <LoneStar99> yeah, try the above links, those are the ones I have uded
669. # [16:55] <LoneStar99> used
670. # [16:55] <mut> thanks mike btw :)
671. # [16:56] <mut> yea im sure I can do what i was planning, but I have had a few more ideas for usablility (zoom and drag functionality ala googlemaps)
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678. # [17:21] <TabAtkins> Oh man, only 5 days before my lightcone envelopes HR222.
679. # [17:23] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-112-7.A163.corp.bahnhof.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
680. # [17:23] <Philip`> http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.00222: - "To prohibit the expenditure of Federal funds to conduct or support research on the cloning of humans, and to express the sense of the Congress that other countries should establish substantially equivalent restrictions."
681. # [17:24] <Philip`> TabAtkins: ^ That HR222?
682. # [17:24] <TabAtkins> No, look for the first one involving stars.
683. # [17:25] <Philip`> Oh
684. # [17:26] <Philip`> Happy almost about 24.3rd birthday, then
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686. # [17:28] <Dashiva> http://twitter.com/heycam/status/10003477514
687. # [17:28] <Dashiva> Maybe I should tell heycam how buses in Norway don't play radio anymore because of inspectors from the local RIAA equivalent
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699. # [17:55] <mut> hmm opera dosent seem to handle save() and restore() when combined with scale()...well not the same as firefox or ie +excanvas
700. # [17:56] <Philip`> The problem might be that it applies the transformation when you call stroke/fill, instead of applying it when you're adding points to the path
701. # [17:56] <Philip`> (so if you change the transformation between constructing the path and stroking/filling then it'll break)
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706. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> Where are the W3C Editor's Drafts?
707. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> They seem to be cunningly hidden.
708. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> Even the link on the HTMLWG page to the latest editor's draft links to a WD.
709. # [18:20] <Philip`> http://dev.w3.org/html5/ ?
710. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait, I get it.
711. # [18:21] <Philip`> I think the ones like http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/ just haven't been changed back to the ED colours yet
712. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> The latest editor's drafts are actually WDs right now?
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714. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> Or something.
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718. # [18:25] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Yes
719. # [18:25] <Philip`> They were changed in e.g. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/index.html.diff?r1=1.807&r2=1.808
720. # [18:26] <Philip`> ("front matter updates for publication this week", 2.5 weeks ago)
721. # [18:26] <Philip`> and will presumably be changed back soon
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724. # [18:34] <LoneStar99> Philip': you know of a tutorial, of how to draw a lines with tons of squares, like you mentioned before?
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726. # [18:35] <Philip`> LoneStar99: I expect there's lots of things talking about how to implement line rasterization algorithms, but it seems like a terrible idea :-)
727. # [18:36] <LoneStar99> Philip: it does, but i know of an app, that does it and works really well...
728. # [18:37] <annevk> omg http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9197
729. # [18:37] <annevk> evil
730. # [18:37] <Philip`> Using beginPath/moveTo/lineTo is the right way to draw lines, and it should be able to do everything you need, so if your code has bugs then you just need to fix those bugs
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732. # [18:38] <LoneStar99> Philip`: the thing it might not be my app, it might be the OS and need to find a work around...
733. # [18:41] <Philip`> That seems unlikely
734. # [18:41] <LoneStar99> tried everything... it just seems that my app randomly begins to connect lines and i think it has to do with "context.moveTo(this.previous_x, this.previous_y);" but it need the line to work...
735. # [18:43] <Philip`> It sounds like you just have a bug somewhere, but I don't know what your code is doing so I have no idea where it might be wrong
736. # [18:45] * jcranmer is now known as jcranmer|away
737. # [18:46] <LoneStar99> Philip' http://pastebin.com/uNxvLdL4
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740. # [18:51] <Philip`> LoneStar99: You need to set previous_x and previous_y in mousedown, otherwise they'll be left as whatever they were in the last mousemove even if you released the mouse, I guess
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743. # [18:54] <LoneStar99> Philip': have tried that and it still begins to screw up after awhile
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745. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> Tried logging the events and the values they see for previous_x and previous_y?
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747. # [18:56] <Philip`> LoneStar99: By the way, why is the drawImage line there?
748. # [18:56] <Philip`> Also, why is the stroke() not at the end of mousemove?
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750. # [18:58] <tantek> Hixie, does microdata itemref permit referencing an id of an ancestor?
751. # [18:58] <tantek> e.g. <span itemscope id=a><span itemprop=turtle itemscope id=b itemref=a></span></span>
752. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> It might run afoul of the cycle-breaking algo, but there's no explicit restriction against such a thing.
753. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> I haven't kept up with the cycle algo, though.
754. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> foolip would have more info, I think.
755. # [18:59] <tantek> TabAtkins - what cycle breaking algo? none specified here: http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/#attr-itemref
756. # [19:00] <tantek> it just says "a list of additional elements to crawl to find the name-value pairs of the item."
757. # [19:01] <tantek> which in the example above, gives you infinitely nested items, each with a turtle property whose value is the next nested item with a turtle property etc.
758. # [19:01] <tantek> turtles all the way down ;)
759. # [19:01] <tantek> when do you stop crawling?
760. # [19:01] <LoneStar99> Philip': i makes things look anti-aliasing
761. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> tantek: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html#associating-names-with-items
762. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> Dunno if this is the latest version of the cycle-breaker. You'd have to ask foolip, or get Hixie.
763. # [19:03] <tantek> ah - ok: If root is in memory, then the algorithm fails; abort these steps.
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767. # [19:03] <tantek> therefore microdata effectively makes referencing an id of an ancestor a NOP
768. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> If the ancestor is already part of the item, yes.
769. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> If it's an ancestor in the DOM, higher up than the start of the item, though, then should be okay.
770. # [19:04] <tantek> sure
771. # [19:04] <tantek> microformats include-pattern has the same restriction
772. # [19:05] <tantek> but I didn't see it in the W3C microdata draft
773. # [19:05] <tantek> so I wondered if Ian had somehow permitted itemref inclusion of ancestors
774. # [19:05] <tantek> apparently not
775. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> Is that algo in the w3c draft, or are the two versions differeing significantly?
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777. # [19:06] <LoneStar99> Philip': Maybe not, the drawImage stuff does nothing from i can see
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779. # [19:07] <tantek> TabAtkins - the w3c draft says the same: http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/#associating-names-with-items
780. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> kk.
781. # [19:07] <tantek> I just didn't find it because it doesn't reference itemref explicitly
782. # [19:07] <tantek> itemref on an ancestor being a NOP is a side effect you have to figure out from the algo
783. # [19:07] <tantek> rather than being explicit
784. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> Yes.
785. # [19:07] <tantek> which is going to confuse authors
786. # [19:08] <tantek> when they ask why doesn't this work
787. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> The simple and obvious answer would be "because that would make an infinite loop, don't do that".
788. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> You don't need to point them at the algo for that.
789. # [19:10] <tantek> much better to describe it up front IMHO
790. # [19:10] <tantek> e.g.
791. # [19:10] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern#in_general
792. # [19:10] <tantek> To prevent infinite loops, if a class="include" refers to itself or to an ancestor in the parse tree, then it is ignored and has no effect on the parser.
793. # [19:10] <LoneStar99> are there any webOS developers here?
794. # [19:11] * aroben is now known as aroben|phone
795. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> tantek: But the situation is more subtle with microdata, because it permits reference to ancestors; it merely prevents such a reference from causing an infinite loop.
796. # [19:11] <tantek> LoneStar99 try #webkit
797. # [19:12] <tantek> TabAtkins - not true - the ancestor is already in memory from the parse in progress
798. # [19:12] <tantek> thus the reference to ancestor immediately fails in step 1
799. # [19:12] <tantek> assuming you're parsing microdata from the root of document downward
800. # [19:13] <tantek> which all the "converting to ..." (insert format here) algorithms do
801. # [19:13] <LoneStar99> tantek: there is a webos channel, but wanted to see if someone could see the issues i see with my code... but anyways time for lunch! thanks for all the help be back later
802. # [19:13] <tantek> LoneStar99 - good to know!
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805. # [19:16] <tantek> btw - given that itemref causes an actual crawl of the targets of the itemref it is not really a "ref" (like href), it is more like a "src" (like <img src>)
806. # [19:16] <tantek> itemsrc would more accurately convey what itemref does
807. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> tantek: I believe that that algo starts by assuming the root is an item, that is, it has @itemscope.
808. # [19:17] <tantek> TabAtkins - sure - but that makes no difference to the breaking of recursion
809. # [19:17] <tantek> or ancestral reference
810. # [19:17] <tantek> alternatively, iteminclude would also better convey what itemref does
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812. # [19:18] <TabAtkins> <div id=foo itemprop=foo>foo <div itemscope itemref=foo></div></div> would affect it, wouldn't it?
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816. # [19:21] <tantek> TabAtkins - yes - not a particularly useful case though
817. # [19:21] <tantek> as typically you get a need in nested objects to refer to (include) a common parent object
818. # [19:21] <TabAtkins> No, but that's the reason why Ian often forgoes prose descriptions of algos - they don't hit all cases.
819. # [19:22] <tantek> sure, but then that makes it harder for authors
820. # [19:22] <tantek> authors don't typically "get" the procedural descriptions of the algos
821. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
822. # [19:23] <tantek> and one of the claims of microdata is that it is "easier" for authors
823. # [19:23] <tantek> thus I would say that claim is refuted by this
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825. # [19:23] <tantek> TabAtkins - if you want to see a discussion of a real world example of nested objects referring to a parent object, /join #microformats
826. # [19:24] <tantek> we're discussing hProduct + hReview there now
827. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> Oh, I don't doubt the use-case. I use circularly-nested data structures all the time.
828. # [19:24] <tantek> all the time?
829. # [19:24] <tantek> or are you being facetious ;)
830. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> No, I really do use them a lot.
831. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> It's very useful to embed a reference to the parent in a child.
832. # [19:26] <tantek> a reference yes. but an include no. and itemref is an include, not a reference. hence my point about terminology.
833. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> That's valid.
834. # [19:27] <TabAtkins> Then suggest some accurate prose, or suggest a change to the algo to reflect the simpler prose.
835. # [19:27] <TabAtkins> Such as disallowing all ancestor references.
836. # [19:27] * TabAtkins goes to lunch.
837. # [19:28] <JonathanNeal_oww> Hey all.
838. # [19:28] * JonathanNeal_oww is now known as JonathanNeal
839. # [19:28] <JonathanNeal> I'm trying to come up with practical naming conventions for the IDs and Classnames in my layout template.
840. # [19:29] <JonathanNeal> I was trying to follow the ARIA roles list to name most of my elements.
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851. # [20:06] <Philip`> JonathanNeal: I suggest using boys' names for classes and girls' names for IDs
852. # [20:06] <JonathanNeal> Ha.
853. # [20:06] <Philip`> Helps to keep them easily distinguishable
854. # [20:06] <JonathanNeal> I found an ARIA name.
855. # [20:06] <JonathanNeal> role="main" so I named it main.
856. # [20:15] <Hixie> tantek: please send microdata feedback to the list or use the review comments tool in the whatwg version to file a bug so i don't lose it -- thanks
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865. # [20:26] <mpilgrim> I don't really understand the purpose of the "fallback" section in a cache manifest file
866. # [20:27] <mpilgrim> i see the use case for the "explicit" section (stuff you need offline)
867. # [20:27] <mpilgrim> and i see the use case for the "online whitelist" section (stuff like tracking CGI scripts that don't make sense offline)
868. # [20:28] <mpilgrim> there's only one example in the spec of using a "fallback" section, and i don't fully understand it
869. # [20:28] <mpilgrim> scratch that, i don't understand it at all
870. # [20:30] <Hixie> imagine a site like flickr
871. # [20:30] <Hixie> which has one page per image
872. # [20:31] <Hixie> now imagine the user, while offline, adds a bunch of images
873. # [20:31] <Hixie> and follows links to those images
874. # [20:31] <Hixie> if we didn't have the fallback section, those links would be dead
875. # [20:32] <mpilgrim> ...
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878. # [20:33] <mpilgrim> ok, so offline flickr
879. # [20:34] <mpilgrim> suppose http://www.flickr.com/photos/f8dy/ links to a manifest file
880. # [20:35] <Hixie> crap meeting gotta go
881. # [20:36] <mpilgrim> http://www.flickr.com/photos/f8dy/327774195/ (and, say, 99 other recent photo pages) is listed in the explicit section
882. # [20:36] <mpilgrim> along with http://farm1.static.flickr.com/142/327774195_2d2b67753e.jpg which is the image on that page
883. # [20:39] <tantek> Hixie, will do. For reference, my feedback items are described here: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100305#l-781 I'll clean up that text and send it to public-html.
884. # [20:40] * tantek was trying to figure out what about that photo of towels over mpilgrim's feed made it "explicit".
885. # [20:40] <mpilgrim> haha
886. # [20:41] <mpilgrim> pooh porn
887. # [20:41] <mpilgrim> rule 34 predicts its existence
888. # [20:43] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
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892. # [20:44] <mpilgrim> a fun fact about the cache manifest: if there are no explicit section headers, all the listed resources are implicitly in the "explicit" section
893. # [20:45] <mpilgrim> i tried to explain this with a straight face for my book, but i failed
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908. # [21:16] <knowtheory> Hey othermaciej :)
909. # [21:16] <othermaciej> hello
910. # [21:19] <knowtheory> are CSS animations incorporated into a component of HTML5 or into a new CSS standard?
911. # [21:19] <knowtheory> I'm trying to figure out the degree of complexity and organizational capaobilities of CSS animations (basically, how one would work w/ 'em for complex examples)
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915. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> knowtheory: CSS Animations are (unsurprisingly ^_^) a CSS Module.
916. # [21:32] <knowtheory> TabAtkins: in HTML5 then? :D
917. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> Haha.
918. # [21:33] <knowtheory> hunh, exciting, http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/ just crashed a bunch of tabs in chrome
919. # [21:34] <knowtheory> yeah freaky, consistent crash on that page.
920. # [21:34] <knowtheory> safari renders it fine though
921. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Huh, no crash for me. Windows, Chrome 4.
922. # [21:35] <knowtheory> yeah osx 5.0.307.11 b
923. # [21:35] <miketaylr> works fine in 5.0.345.0 (40651)/Mac
924. # [21:35] <miketaylr> (well, chromium)
925. # [21:35] <knowtheory> even more exciting! :)
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932. # [21:45] <knowtheory> ah there we go: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-animations/
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935. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> knowtheory: Ah man, I'm sorry, I would have linked you to it immediately if I knew you were looking for it.
936. # [21:51] <knowtheory> TabAtkins: no worries!
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941. # [22:07] <tantek> I did encode actual example uses of CSS3 UI properties in the spec itself - I wonder if that may be causing the crash - certainly was not intentional.
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943. # [22:13] <knowtheory> tantek: it's all your fault!
944. # [22:13] <knowtheory> since someone mentioned that chromium wasn't seeing that behavior
945. # [22:13] <knowtheory> i figure it's just a bug in this version of chrome
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947. # [22:15] <miketaylr> knowtheory: heh, i think you're right: http://miketaylr.com/post/bcbf19c8.png
948. # [22:15] <miketaylr> i crash using the same version of chrome, but am fine in chromium
949. # [22:16] <knowtheory> miketaylr: i filed a bug on the chromium tracker :)
950. # [22:17] <miketaylr> cool
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953. # [22:19] <knowtheory> miketaylr: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=37546
954. # [22:19] <knowtheory> (also for you tantek if you are interested)
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959. # [22:24] <knowtheory> man, that was fast, the bug i reported has already been triaged and assigned
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963. # [22:33] <dglazkov> knowtheory: speed is what we do :)
964. # [22:33] <dglazkov> that didn't come out right
965. # [22:34] <knowtheory> haha :D
966. # [22:35] <mpilgrim> woohoo, i have a working offline web application
967. # [22:36] <mpilgrim> whose sole purpose is to display information on whether or not it is a working offline web application
968. # [22:38] <mpilgrim> it works in 2 browsers!
969. # [22:39] <mpilgrim> my work here is done
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974. # [22:46] <othermaciej> hawt
975. # [22:46] <othermaciej> annevk: does html5-diffs have a bug component?
976. # [22:50] * Quits: robreact (~chatzilla@12.33.239.250) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158])
977. # [22:50] * Joins: jgornick (~joe@199.199.212.242)
978. # [23:00] <mpilgrim> no, scratch that
979. # [23:00] <mpilgrim> i can't get it to register updates in firefox
980. # [23:01] <mpilgrim> http://diveintohtml5.org/examples/clock.html
981. # [23:01] <mpilgrim> manifest is at http://diveintohtml5.org/examples/clock.html5cache
982. # [23:01] <Hixie> why "html5"cache?
983. # [23:01] <mpilgrim> firefox properly downloads it and can use it offline
984. # [23:02] <mpilgrim> but when i update the JS file with new code and update the manifest file with a version-specific comment, it never picks up the updated resources
985. # [23:02] <Hixie> does it try to fetch the manifest when you load the page?
986. # [23:02] <mpilgrim> curl -I confirms that the etag and last-modified headers of the manifest file are changing
987. # [23:03] <mpilgrim> oh bloody hell, my expires headers are wrong
988. # [23:03] <othermaciej> what's the expiration on the manifest?
989. # [23:03] <mpilgrim> yeah, just got there
990. # [23:03] <mpilgrim> hang on
991. # [23:07] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
992. # [23:12] * Joins: temoto (~temoto@89-178-96-49.broadband.corbina.ru)
993. # [23:15] <temoto> Hello. I want to try html5lib instead of BeautifulSoup to parse arbitrary HTML found on the web. What i'm [currently] interested is only about finding <a> elements and taking their href attribute value. (as opposed to keeping Soup interface) So which is the fastest way to iterate all <a> elements?
994. # [23:16] * jcranmer|away is now known as jcranmer
995. # [23:19] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
996. # [23:22] <mpilgrim> woohoo, http://diveintohtml5.org/examples/offline/clock.html works in 2 browsers!
997. # [23:22] <mpilgrim> hixie: i don't know why i called it ".html5cache"
998. # [23:23] <mpilgrim> i needed a unique file extension to set the content-type
999. # [23:23] <Hixie> and you didn't like .manifest like the spec suggests? :-P
1000. # [23:24] <mpilgrim> i missed that
1001. # [23:24] <mpilgrim> that doesn't conflict with anything else in MIME-world?
1002. # [23:24] <Hixie> not to my knowledge
1003. # [23:25] <mpilgrim> ("MIME-world" reminds me of the underwater minus level in Super Mario Bros. -- hard to get into and impossible to win)
1004. # [23:32] <mpilgrim> while we're on the subject, do you have a suggestion for a MIME type for .ttf files?
1005. # [23:32] <Hixie> font/truetype?
1006. # [23:32] <Hixie> might need registering
1007. # [23:32] <mpilgrim> it's one of those MIME-world trick questions, i think
1008. # [23:33] <mpilgrim> AFAICT, there's nothing registered
1009. # [23:33] <mpilgrim> and all the experimental or vendor-specific alternatives are horrific
1010. # [23:33] <Hixie> ah. then you just volunteered to register it!
1011. # [23:33] <mpilgrim> apparently it doesn't matter because font-face-supporting browsers ignore the mime type
1012. # [23:34] <Hixie> yeah well
1013. # [23:34] <mpilgrim> but i got email complaints because my fonts were being served as text/plain, which is arguably the worst default ever
1014. # [23:34] * Hixie wishes we could abandon MIME types for anything that can be unambiguously identified by the leading bytes
1015. # [23:34] <mpilgrim> and judging by the online discussions i've found on the topic, registering it is impossible
1016. # [23:34] <Hixie> why is registering it impossible?
1017. # [23:35] <mpilgrim> maybe not theoretically impossible
1018. # [23:35] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@173-13-232-33-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: taf2)
1019. # [23:35] <mpilgrim> but no one has managed it yet
1020. # [23:35] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
1021. # [23:35] <mpilgrim> despite years of trying
1022. # [23:35] <mpilgrim> and no, i'm not volunteering to register it
1023. # [23:36] <mpilgrim> i don't need any more email from Those People
1024. # [23:37] * Quits: Michelangelo (~Michelang@93-42-13-51.ip84.fastwebnet.it) (Remote host closed the connection)
1025. # [23:38] <Hixie> <img alt="Stamp It" onerror="this.src='/icon.gif';" src="" align="left" border="0" height="32" width="32">
1026. # [23:38] <Hixie> wtf
1027. # [23:38] <mpilgrim> hooray for alt text!
1028. # [23:38] <mpilgrim> does that ever work?
1029. # [23:38] <mpilgrim> (the onerror part, i mean)
1030. # [23:41] <Hixie> apparently
1031. # [23:41] <Hixie> src="" triggers onerror, which sets the icon, or something
1032. # [23:41] <mpilgrim> awesome
1033. # [23:42] <mpilgrim> so you were explaining the fallback section of the manifest
1034. # [23:42] <mpilgrim> using flickr as an example
1035. # [23:42] <Hixie> yes
1036. # [23:42] <mpilgrim> i don't understand it yet
1037. # [23:43] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-60-214.A163.priv.bahnhof.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1038. # [23:43] <Hixie> it lets you cache a small part of a site and have graceful fallback for the rest of the site while offline
1039. # [23:44] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-60-214.A163.priv.bahnhof.se)
1040. # [23:44] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
1041. # [23:45] <mpilgrim> and by "graceful fallback" you mean "a page that says this page is not available offline"
1042. # [23:45] <mpilgrim> in lieu of a browser-level error message
1043. # [23:45] <mpilgrim> ?
1044. # [23:45] <Hixie> not necessarily; if you have the information locally to render the page, e.g. if bugzilla has a copy of the bug in its client-side database, you can just render the page locally
1045. # [23:46] <temoto> Hello. I want to try html5lib instead of BeautifulSoup to parse arbitrary HTML found on the web. What i'm [currently] interested is only about finding <a> elements and taking their href attribute value. (as opposed to keeping Soup interface) So which is the fastest way to iterate all <a> elements?
1046. # [23:46] * Joins: rauchg (~rauchg@75.101.111.130)
1047. # [23:46] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-60-214.A163.priv.bahnhof.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
1048. # [23:47] <mpilgrim> that makes sense for bugzilla because each page is "show_bug.cgi?id=foo" and the only thing that changes is foo
1049. # [23:47] <mpilgrim> earlier you mentioned a hypothetical offline flickr
1050. # [23:47] <mpilgrim> flickr uses unique URLs for each photo page
1051. # [23:49] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.46) (Quit: othermaciej)
1052. # [23:49] <mpilgrim> are you saying that you could set up a wildcard so that all unknown (uncached) URLs got handled by a master page like show_photo.cgi?id=foo
1053. # [23:49] <Hixie> i just meant an image site in general, dunno abotu flickr specifically
1054. # [23:49] <mpilgrim> ?
1055. # [23:49] <Hixie> that's what the fallback stuff does, yes
1056. # [23:50] <mpilgrim> i see
1057. # [23:51] <mpilgrim> that was the missing link
1058. # [23:51] <mpilgrim> i didn't know that fallback URLs could be wildcards
1059. # [23:51] <mpilgrim> now i see the bit about "fallback namespace" and "URLs as prefix match patterns"
1060. # [23:51] <Hixie> they work the same as the online whitelist, but with a fallback url
1061. # [23:52] <mpilgrim> can i declare a specific URL in the explicit section that would also match a fallback namespace?
1062. # [23:52] <mpilgrim> like
1063. # [23:52] <mpilgrim> CACHE MANIFEST
1064. # [23:52] <mpilgrim> CACHE:
1065. # [23:52] <mpilgrim> images/cat.jpg
1066. # [23:53] <mpilgrim> FALLBACK:
1067. # [23:53] * Parts: temoto (~temoto@89-178-96-49.broadband.corbina.ru) ("Leaving")
1068. # [23:53] <mpilgrim> images/ missing.jpg
1069. # [23:53] <Hixie> what do you mean by "can i" exactly?
1070. # [23:54] <mpilgrim> will the browser cache images/cat.jpg and use it when i say <img src="images/cat.jpg"> ?
1071. # [23:54] <mpilgrim> the URL matches a resource listed in the explicit section, and also a fallback namespace listed in the fallback section
1072. # [23:54] <mpilgrim> which one wins?
1073. # [23:54] <Hixie> yes
1074. # [23:54] <Hixie> If a resource is listed in the explicit section or as a fallback entry in the fallback section, the resource will always be taken from the cache, regardless of any other matching entries in the fallback namespaces or online whitelist namespaces.
1075. # [23:54] <mpilgrim> ok
1076. # [23:56] <mpilgrim> now here's another question
1077. # [23:56] <mpilgrim> i've been trying to set up all of diveintohtml5.org as an offline web app
1078. # [23:56] <mpilgrim> but i don't want to do it by default
1079. # [23:57] <mpilgrim> i want you to click a link "go offline" and go to a page that gives a progress bar
1080. # [23:57] <mpilgrim> (in firefox this page would also display the prompt "do you want this site to store local data" or some such)
1081. # [23:57] <mpilgrim> (in safari there is apparently no prompt)
1082. # [23:57] <mpilgrim> IOW, i don't want every page to point to the manifest file
1083. # [23:58] <Hixie> if a page doesn't point to the manifest, it can't be cached for offline use
1084. # [23:58] <mpilgrim> but i want the go_offline.html page to point to ta manifest file that includes all the other HTML pages (and their scripts, stylesheets, and images)
1085. # [23:58] <Hixie> each page that is to work offline has to opt in to working offlien
1086. # [23:59] <mpilgrim> so page A *must* point to a manifest file in order to be used offline?
1087. # [23:59] <mpilgrim> even if page B points to a manifest file that includes page A?
1088. # Session Close: Sat Mar 06 00:00:00 2010

The end :)