/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 19 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  41. # [00:43] <paul_irish> data-* attributes are gone from all current specs, right?
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  44. # [00:45] <Dashiva> No?
  45. # [00:45] <paul_irish> oh its in html5.. embedding-custom-non-visible-data
  46. # [00:45] <Dashiva> Yup
  47. # [00:45] <paul_irish> i thought it was thrown out with the microdata bathwater. phew.
  48. # [00:46] * AryehGregor begins reading through a two-week backlog of spec mail
  49. # [00:46] <Dashiva> Have fun
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  55. # [01:06] <AryehGregor> Why does <http://wiki.whatwg.org/favicon.ico> not have a transparent background?
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  63. # [01:33] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, yea what gives
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  65. # [01:38] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/wiki.whatwg.org.favicon.ico There you go, AryehGregor, you go ahead and enjoy a favicon with a transparent background
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  68. # [01:39] * AryehGregor remembers that he has shell access to wiki.whatwg.org
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  74. # [01:40] <AryehGregor> Yay, works.
  75. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, thanks. :)
  76. # [01:41] * JonathanNeal can finally tell his kids one day, "Kids, your dad took the white background off the whatwg's wiki favicon once."
  77. # [01:41] <JonathanNeal> They'll say "Wow, it looks so much better in Chrome, Father dearest."
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  79. # [01:42] <JonathanNeal> Haha, I didn't even realize you already have a png!
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  82. # [01:43] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it's mainly in Chrome that it looks ugly. Blue background and all.
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  85. # [01:45] <JonathanNeal> I had no idea you would actually use that ... okay I took it a little more seriously. Refresh my favicon and use that one, it's actually a 16x16 ico of your png.
  86. # [01:45] <JonathanNeal> Otherwise, you'll have these little tiny white edges on your favicon and I'll just kill myself.
  87. # [01:46] <JonathanNeal> Then Marty will never be born, and there'll be no one to go back and warn Doc Brown.
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  89. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> Done.
  90. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> Looks the same to me.
  91. # [01:47] <AryehGregor> But that's why I'm a programmer, not a designer. :P
  92. # [01:47] <JonathanNeal> np, lemme know if you ever need stuff like that, it takes but 20 seconds.
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  94. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> I could probably have done it myself, actually, although not in 20 seconds.
  95. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> In fact, it was more of a random gripe, but then when you gave the improved version, I remembered I have shell access, so . . .
  96. # [01:49] <JonathanNeal> Now I can die in peace, ty AryehGregor. :P
  97. # [01:51] * JonathanNeal is now known as JonathanNealFavi
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  102. # [01:53] * AryehGregor heartily endorses http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html-bidi-20100304/
  103. # [01:54] <JonathanNeal> just supporting dir in all elements?
  104. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> No, it has a detailed list of bidi problems that should be fixed.
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  106. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> I've run into a lot of them.
  107. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> (since I know Hebrew, and occasionally write it on computers, although not often)
  108. # [01:56] * AryehGregor got through six days' worth of spec mail in the last hour or so, ten days to go . . . but bedtime now
  109. # [02:02] <JonathanNeal> Nite nite!
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  197. # [09:37] <annevk> MikeSmith, I think our process for going out of Last Call is not having outstanding issue/discussion threads for a while
  198. # [09:38] <annevk> though ultimately, just like with the W3C, it'll be a judgment call
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  208. # [10:14] <hsivonen> it's really sad that I felt compelled to file http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9279
  209. # [10:14] <hsivonen> the effects of putting UI strings in the DOM and the html5lib test suite...
  210. # [10:16] <annevk> that UI strings can be generated by the HTML parser is insane to begin with...
  211. # [10:17] <asmodai> http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/mathml/msup.html <-- needs html 5 + mathml
  212. # [10:18] <hsivonen> I guess privacy features that mask the UI language should also emit the isindex prompt in en-US
  213. # [10:18] <hsivonen> mask the UI language from servers that is
  214. # [10:18] <asmodai> bottom two look horrendous, the third from the bottom looks the best but is probably not the way the mathml is supposed to be, and the fourth, well, definitely not how it should
  215. # [10:19] <hsivonen> IIRC, some folks in the IETF argued that you can ethnically profile people from their UI language and then ethnically discriminate
  216. # [10:19] <hsivonen> (no, I don't have a link to email archives at hand)
  217. # [10:20] <annevk> hsivonen, oh yeah, hadn't even considered that the HTML parser leaked privacy information therefore
  218. # [10:20] <annevk> only slightly insane o_O
  219. # [10:21] <hsivonen> I should make a note for this for Mozilla's security review of the HTML5 parser
  220. # [10:22] <asmodai> hsivonen: yeah, using 'here' is such a bad usability string.
  221. # [10:22] <jgraham> Why do people care about leaking UA language information?
  222. # [10:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: see above: ethnic profiling and discrimination
  223. # [10:24] <asmodai> Is it scary that I never even considered discrimination based on UI language? I wonder if that makes me naïve, idealistic, or just plain dumb.
  224. # [10:25] <hsivonen> it's not a given that everything perceived to be a threat at the IETF actually is
  225. # [10:26] <jgraham> That sounds farfetched, illegal, and easilly worked arounf
  226. # [10:27] <jgraham> So not really something I would be that concerned about
  227. # [10:27] <annevk> but some people are
  228. # [10:28] <jgraham> Right, but some people are concerned with lots of things
  229. # [10:28] <jgraham> Doesn't make them all equally worrysome
  230. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks (for the clarification about whatwg last call)
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  233. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> annevk: but I think in the community there remains some unproductive confusion about what it means for the whatwg HTML5 spec to be in last call
  234. # [10:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what's the "community" in this case?
  235. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> the community represented by the several people so far who have asked me personally about this
  236. # [10:38] <hsivonen> ok
  237. # [10:38] <annevk> MikeSmith, maybe you should suggest them to add a question to the FAQ
  238. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> I guess
  239. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> or maybe somebody who understands what it does mean can just go ahead and add the question and the answer
  240. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> because I have to say I personally don't know what the answer should be
  241. # [10:40] <annevk> you can just add a question without giving an answer
  242. # [10:40] <annevk> i.e. by putting a ? there
  243. # [10:42] <hsivonen> list of Frequently Asked Questions. no one promised answers.
  244. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> true
  245. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> anyway, the simple and candid answer that I give to people who ask me in person is that they can safely ignore the fact that the whatwg version is in last call
  246. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> but I don't think that's a suitable answer to put into the FAQ
  247. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> also, it's not even clear to me if it is actually still in last call
  248. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> e.g., the section on the device element clearly is not
  249. # [10:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: for a candid answer, see also http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20091029#l-273
  250. # [10:46] * MikeSmith looks now
  251. # [10:47] * MikeSmith waits
  252. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> heh
  253. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> yeah, well, that's also probably not the answer we'd want to put in the FAQ
  254. # [10:48] <jgraham> Isn't the answer just that all the subsections that are considered "HTML5" are individually in LC status?
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  260. # [11:01] <jgraham> I hate javascript, it has made me reflexively write === everywhere
  261. # [11:02] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@wlan.csie.ntu.edu.tw) (Quit: kennyluck)
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  263. # [11:07] <virtuelv> jgraham: then I'm wondering what you think of Perl
  264. # [11:07] <virtuelv> cause it makes me reflexiely write @_#!¤#&%! everywhere
  265. # [11:07] <annevk> jgraham, you're in the ideal position to fix it!
  266. # [11:07] <annevk> virtuelv, lol
  267. # [11:10] * asmodai shoots Perl.
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  271. # [11:14] <jgraham> virtuelv: I try not to think of Perl
  272. # [11:16] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  273. # [11:23] <hsivonen> Will Perl6 be released before 2022?
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  276. # [11:29] * Philip` predicts yes
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  280. # [11:53] <no_mind> well HTML5 will be released before Perl6 :)
  281. # [11:57] <Philip`> Depends what "released" means, I guess
  282. # [11:58] <Philip`> http://use.perl.org/~pmichaud/journal/39411
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  287. # [12:21] <no_mind> So is Perl like Osho ? Never born never dead, visiting the planet earth. ?
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  293. # [12:29] <gsnedders> http://pegjs.majda.cz/ — a parser generator for JS
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  313. # [13:14] <lazni> how can I tell opera not to apply its feed view for http://hdh.dyn-o-saur.com/plos/plos.xhtml?
  314. # [13:16] <lazni> http://hdh.dyn-o-saur.com/plos/plos.html would show the text, but the CSS PI isn't applied in text/html
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  316. # [13:16] <asmodai> hahaha, nice bugtracking category @ Opera: ALIEN? :)
  317. # [13:19] <karlcow> lazni: plos.xhtml is viewed as an xml document as well in Firefox
  318. # [13:19] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@2002:d106:d41b:1234:219:e3ff:fe08:8ad3) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
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  320. # [13:22] <lazni> but firefox doesn't apply its feed view
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  322. # [13:23] <lazni> (because .xhtml doesn't contain "<feed"
  323. # [13:24] <lazni> hm, maybe I should try writting it polyglottically instead of XSLT
  324. # [13:30] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  325. # [13:31] <zcorpan> lazni: http://simon.html5.org/dump/html+js+css+atom.html
  326. # [13:33] <lazni> great, thanks
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  331. # [14:03] <annevk> asmodai, oooh, that's secret
  332. # [14:03] <annevk> at least so we were told by the Norwegian and American government
  333. # [14:05] <Philip`> annevk: I think you meant "whopping", not "whooping"
  334. # [14:06] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
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  336. # [14:11] <annevk> that is too bad, since "whooping" sounds a lot nicer
  337. # [14:11] <annevk> thanks though
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  342. # [14:35] <asmodai> annevk: hahaha
  343. # [14:35] <asmodai> annevk: http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2010/03/13/opera-10-51-rc1-for-windows
  344. # [14:35] <asmodai> annevk: Not so secret eh? ;)
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  348. # [14:48] <annevk> asmodai, they must have missed the memo
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  353. # [15:06] <hsivonen> this is exciting. I've tested three browser engines for w.document.readyState immediately after var w = window.open(...
  354. # [15:06] <hsivonen> so far three different results
  355. # [15:06] <hsivonen> will the fourth engine have a fourth value
  356. # [15:06] <hsivonen> readyState has four possible values...
  357. # [15:08] <jgraham> (theoretically)
  358. # [15:09] <hsivonen> boohoo. IE had the same value as Safari
  359. # [15:09] <hsivonen> aside: the value given by IE and Safari is the least useful
  360. # [15:10] <hsivonen> Minefield: uninitialized; Safari 4.0.5 and IE8: complete; Opera 10.50: interactive
  361. # [15:10] <hsivonen> w00t. got a fourth value out of IE8!
  362. # [15:10] <hsivonen> depends on caching!
  363. # [15:11] <hsivonen> interop FTW!
  364. # [15:12] * annevk wonders if the rules of the channel have been violated
  365. # [15:12] * annevk can't believe we all went ahead and implemented the crime that is document.readState in the first place
  366. # [15:13] * hsivonen can't see a way to empty the cache in IE8's UI
  367. # [15:14] <hsivonen> found it now.
  368. # [15:14] * Joins: garbeam_ (~arg@212.13.194.175.rev.bitfolk.com)
  369. # [15:15] <hsivonen> maybe IE doesn't depend on caching but on something else more random
  370. # [15:15] <garbeam_> I'm reading this http://dev.w3.org/html5/eventsource/ and stumbled across section 8: "Authors are also cautioned that HTTP chunking can have unexpected negative effects on the reliability of this protocol[..]" - any evidence for that?
  371. # [15:15] <hsivonen> like network speed or something
  372. # [15:15] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  373. # [15:16] <hsivonen> does IE have an equivalent of document.documentURI?
  374. # [15:16] <annevk> garbeam_, prolly more effective to mail public-webapps@w3.org with that question
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  377. # [15:26] <jgraham> Hmm, I live in the wrong country
  378. # [15:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: Because there's too much ice and snow here?
  379. # [15:27] <garbeam_> annevk: ok done, thx
  380. # [15:27] <gsnedders> It's kinda sad that's apparently WONTFIX BYDESIGN
  381. # [15:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: Because I just saw the lineup for the latitude festival, and now I am glum
  382. # [15:28] <jgraham> Moreso than usual I mean
  383. # [15:29] <gsnedders> Yeah, I was going to say. When are you not glum?
  384. # [15:29] <annevk> garbeam_, you posted to the WHATWG list, but that works too
  385. # [15:29] <gsnedders> But oh dear, I have to put up with an even more glum jgraham…
  386. # [15:29] <garbeam_> annevk: yes, I try to avoid W3C
  387. # [15:30] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
  388. # [15:31] <asmodai> gsnedders: Nothing a tranq dart can't cure.
  389. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> garbeam_: me too, but I'm not always so successful at it
  390. # [15:31] <garbeam_> MikeSmith: it's a matter of self-discipline ;)
  391. # [15:32] <jgraham> I'm not sure tranquiliser darts are a cure for glumness
  392. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> garbeam_: in my case, I guess it's more a matter of masochism
  393. # [15:32] <jgraham> At the best they are a temporary respite
  394. # [15:35] <asmodai> jgraham: It will keep you from going totally over to the dark side and starting to cut yourself and all that.
  395. # [15:38] <jgraham> jgraham: No, gsnedders is the emo kid
  396. # [15:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: I AM NOT EMO.
  397. # [15:38] * gsnedders wonders how he can prove to jgraham he is not emo.
  398. # [15:38] <jgraham> No, your're not *emu*, you are emo
  399. # [15:39] <asmodai> gsnedders paints his nails black and all that?
  400. # [15:40] <gsnedders> No, I don't.
  401. # [15:40] <gsnedders> Oh, jgraham's saying something. Maybe I ought to take my headphones off. On second thought, he's probably just calling me emo, so there's little point.
  402. # [15:42] <asmodai> rofl
  403. # [15:42] * TabAtkins stole a girl fomr someone as a result of painting his nails black + black lipstick. That was goth, though, not emo.
  404. # [15:42] <gsnedders> fomr?
  405. # [15:43] <Philip`> "for"
  406. # [15:43] <TabAtkins> "from".
  407. # [15:43] <gsnedders> See, if jgraham just called me goth all the time, I wouldn't complain anywhere near so much. I'm a lot closer to being a goth than being emo…
  408. # [15:43] <gsnedders> jgraham would never accept that.
  409. # [15:43] <Philip`> He runs a girl thievery business for clients
  410. # [15:43] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-176-223.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  411. # [15:43] <TabAtkins> That would be lucrative!
  412. # [15:43] <gsnedders> He has to call me emo just to annoy me
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  416. # [15:44] <gsnedders> I guess the fact that I'm wearing black entirely and have pale skin is cause for jgraham to think I'm emo…
  417. # [15:45] <gsnedders> There again, I have a ponytail, so I can't be emo.
  418. # [15:46] <asmodai> goth++
  419. # [15:47] <asmodai> And that said, time for some Trail of Tears
  420. # [15:47] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-65-96-162-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  421. # [15:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: You're no more goth than I am
  422. # [15:48] <gsnedders> Yet I'm more emo? Okay…
  423. # [15:49] <jgraham> I you were goth, I would expected, died, straightened, black hair, at the very least
  424. # [15:49] <asmodai> Aside from the goatee and the moustache and semi-long hair I doubt I'd pass as remotely metal ;)
  425. # [15:49] <jgraham> *If
  426. # [15:49] <asmodai> s/died/dyed I hope
  427. # [15:49] <jgraham> Oh
  428. # [15:50] <jgraham> Well yes
  429. # [15:50] <jgraham> Although dead hair would be even more goth
  430. # [15:50] <TabAtkins> Goths don't require black hair. Clothing and makeup will do.
  431. # [15:50] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  432. # [15:50] <TabAtkins> Your hair is presumably already dead?
  433. # [15:50] <jgraham> gsnedders has clothing, I'm happy to say
  434. # [15:50] * asmodai always has to laugh at those folks who put on face paint
  435. # [15:50] <jgraham> Not very goth, but enough to cover himself
  436. # [15:51] <jgraham> makeup not so much
  437. # [15:51] * gsnedders has eyeliner at home, as well as black lipstick…
  438. # [15:51] <TabAtkins> See? Goth it is.
  439. # [15:51] <jgraham> Not *at home*
  440. # [15:51] <jgraham> *Note
  441. # [15:51] <gsnedders> And black clothes, plenty of black.
  442. # [15:51] <TabAtkins> Or punk metal, I suppose.
  443. # [15:51] <jgraham> He probably means "in Scotland"
  444. # [15:51] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Oh, I am no way punk metal
  445. # [15:51] <jgraham> i.e. not even important enough to bring with him
  446. # [15:51] <jgraham> Not goth
  447. # [15:52] <gsnedders> In Linköping, actually
  448. # [15:52] <jgraham> Wear it or I don't believe you
  449. # [15:53] <TabAtkins> Tits or gtfo.
  450. # [15:53] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Sorry, I'm not getting a sex change just for the sake of that
  451. # [16:00] <gsnedders> Is it bad I'm now arguing against the existance of rationale?
  452. # [16:01] <gsnedders> Or does the belief in emotion over rationale make me emo, somehow?
  453. # [16:03] <jgraham> Yes, yes it does
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  457. # [16:05] <gsnedders> _How?_
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  469. # [16:31] <jgraham> It's not self evident?
  470. # [16:32] <gsnedders> No. I obviously don't self-harm…
  471. # [16:33] <JonathanNeal> http://html5gallery.com/ woo Liferay!
  472. # [16:33] <jgraham> I don't think that's the only criterion
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  477. # [16:45] <erlehmann> how would you name „emotion over reason“, gsnedders ?
  478. # [16:46] <Dashiva> "Shrill"
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  480. # [16:56] <gsnedders> erlehmann: I wouldn't, I'd just use such a phrase :P
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  492. # [17:17] <boblet> JonathanNeal: congrats :)
  493. # [17:17] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.106.124) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  494. # [17:17] <JonathanNeal> thanks boblet
  495. # [17:18] <boblet> that reminds me I have some sites to submit too
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  498. # [17:20] <lazni> does mime a/x+x always force standard mode?
  499. # [17:20] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
  500. # [17:21] <gsnedders> lazni: Yes, quirks mode exists only for text/html content
  501. # [17:21] <JonathanNeal> This brought up an interesting question though, how do you organize preview content.
  502. # [17:22] <JonathanNeal> What if you show part of an article that takes you to its own page, is that preview "intended to be independently distributable or reusable"?
  503. # [17:22] <JonathanNeal> If not, what is it, is it part of the outline?
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  506. # [17:24] <jgraham> I would use <section> YMMV
  507. # [17:24] <JonathanNeal> You Make Me Vomit?
  508. # [17:24] <jgraham> Well that too
  509. # [17:24] <JonathanNeal> Your Milage May Vary?
  510. # [17:25] <jgraham> I guess we should go with the latter on the basis of public hygine
  511. # [17:26] <gsnedders> We need namespaces for acronyms.
  512. # [17:26] <gsnedders> s/acronyms/abbrevations/
  513. # [17:26] <JonathanNeal> :) yea I could see how they could belong to a section.
  514. # [17:26] <JonathanNeal> It's a section containing links to other sections and articles.
  515. # [17:26] <JonathanNeal> I s'pose.
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  517. # [17:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: I suggest a namespacing syntax in which you put disambiguating lowercase letters after each of the acronym's letters
  518. # [17:34] <jgraham> Philip`: That doesn't appear to involve URIs and therefore doesn't allow for Distributed Extensibility
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  521. # [17:47] <adactio> Can I just quickly check with you guys that I'm understanding the script element correctly: if you're linking off to a file using the src attribute, you don't need to use the type attribute but if you are putting code between the opening and closing script tags insetad, you *must* use the type attribute?
  522. # [17:48] <gsnedders> No, that's wrong
  523. # [17:48] <gsnedders> You never need the type attribute
  524. # [17:48] <gsnedders> Except if the script isn't JS
  525. # [17:49] <adactio> This bit of the spec: "When used to include data blocks, the data must be embedded inline, the format of the data must be given using the type attribute, and the src attribute must not be specified." makes it sound like type is mandatory when not using src.
  526. # [17:50] <adactio> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/scripting-1.html#script
  527. # [17:50] <Dashiva> The sentence before it explicitly says it isn't
  528. # [17:50] <AryehGregor> "When used to include data blocks"
  529. # [17:50] <AryehGregor> JavaScript isn't data blocks.
  530. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> I was never sure what that section of the spec was meant to refer to.
  531. # [17:51] <adactio> The sentence before it refers only to scripts referenced with the src attribute, not inline scripts.
  532. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> Some hypothetical usage, or do people actually do that?
  533. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> "When used to include dynamic scripts, the scripts may either be embedded inline or may be imported from an external file using the src attribute. If the language is not that described by "text/javascript", then the type attribute must be present, as described below."
  534. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> That covers all usage of JavaScript, since you're including dynamic scripts, not data blocks.
  535. # [17:51] <Dashiva> adactio: "either embedded inline or..."
  536. # [17:52] <adactio> Sounds like the sentence that's confusing me could be clarified by adding the words "non-JavaScript" i.e.: "When used to include non-JavaScript data blocks..."
  537. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> I think the intent is that all data blocks are non-JavaScript, but it's sort of vague about what "data blocks" means.
  538. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> I don't know why the distinction is drawn.
  539. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> I suggest you file a bug or post to whatwg.
  540. # [17:53] <Dashiva> Data is not code
  541. # [17:53] <adactio> I'll post a comment.
  542. # [17:53] <jgraham> Sum Ruby might disagree
  543. # [17:54] <jgraham> *Sam
  544. # [17:54] <jgraham> argh
  545. # [17:54] <AryehGregor> adactio, that's the same as filing a bug.
  546. # [17:54] <gsnedders> The sum of all rubies?
  547. # [17:54] <adactio> comment/bug posted/filed
  548. # [17:55] <Philip`> Data blocks are things like <script type="text/glsl-vs">here's some text that other scripts can extract, and it can say x < y etc safely</script>
  549. # [17:56] <Philip`> You could do something like put JSON data in there too
  550. # [17:56] <Dashiva> Or XML...
  551. # [17:56] <jgraham> Or HTML
  552. # [17:56] <Philip`> or even put JS code which should be accessible to the rest of the page and should not be executed
  553. # [17:56] <Philip`> though then you'd have to come up with a new content-type for it
  554. # [17:57] <Dashiva> text/not-javascript-I-promise
  555. # [17:57] <Philip`> Dashiva: XML is not great because it might include the string "</script>" and you can't escape that at all
  556. # [17:58] <Philip`> but I think some people use it for that anyway
  557. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> JSON might also include the string "</script>".
  558. # [17:59] <Philip`> You can write "<\/script>" then
  559. # [18:00] <jgraham> Philip`: Presumably you can escape the XML
  560. # [18:00] <Philip`> Then it wouldn't be XML
  561. # [18:00] <Philip`> It'd be XML in some wrapper format
  562. # [18:01] <jgraham> Yes, if you're being pedantic
  563. # [18:02] <jgraham> (although strictly I don't know if you can embed XML in some other format and call it XML anyway._
  564. # [18:02] <jgraham> )
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  566. # [18:03] <AryehGregor> Random thought: how long until browser JITs implement speculative execution and branch prediction so they can use multiple cores for single-threaded JS? :)
  567. # [18:04] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-ybvlxpqxfyqibwde)
  568. # [18:06] <Philip`> I imagine the synchronisation overhead would make that kind of fine-grained concurrency impossible
  569. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> What if you did it while the script was blocked on something, like a network read?
  570. # [18:08] <Philip`> The script is almost certainly going to use the read data almost immediately
  571. # [18:08] <Philip`> so you couldn't speculate ahead very far
  572. # [18:08] <AryehGregor> What if it's a long-running app like Gmail and you can guess the read data?
  573. # [18:09] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  574. # [18:09] <gsnedders> And there are relatively few cases where you are blocked on network
  575. # [18:09] <Philip`> If you're blocked on the network then your performance is terribly anyway
  576. # [18:09] <Philip`> and nobody's going to notice a few extra milliseconds
  577. # [18:09] * AryehGregor just realized that once IE9 is released, he should update his website to use inline SVG-in-HTML someplace, so that his site is once again so standard that it no longer works interoperably.
  578. # [18:10] <AryehGregor> It will be awesomely ironic if my site is so standards-compliant that it only works properly in IE.
  579. # [18:10] <AryehGregor> Actually, it wouldn't work properly in any browser, since IE won't support CSS gradients (probably). Even better.
  580. # [18:10] <Philip`> I suppose they could do more things as background optimisations, like guess parameters for functions that haven't been called yet and call them in a separate thread in order to get traces and statistics for the JIT
  581. # [18:10] * Quits: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol) (Remote host closed the connection)
  582. # [18:11] <Philip`> though the actual execution of code would still be single-threaded
  583. # [18:11] * AryehGregor realizes he doesn't really know anything about SVG, and should read the spec.
  584. # [18:11] <AryehGregor> What spec should I start with?
  585. # [18:11] <Philip`> I suggest the SVG spec
  586. # [18:11] <AryehGregor> There are multiple SVG specs, as far as my understanding goes.
  587. # [18:11] <AryehGregor> Like multiple versions? Profiles? That kind of thing?
  588. # [18:12] <Philip`> I believe http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/ is what most browsers target
  589. # [18:12] <Philip`> i.e. 1.1
  590. # [18:12] <JonathanNeal> A Question about HTML5 outlines for those interested in particulars: I have a collection of blog previews, like 10 titles each with the first paragraph and a "click to read more" link. Are each of these previews an article, or do they all belong to one article/ section and have no individual outlining weight of their own?
  591. # [18:12] <Philip`> (not 1.2 Tiny)
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  595. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> An IE person responded here, but ignored questions asking about <canvas>: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/03/18/svg-in-ie9-roadmap.aspx
  596. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> I'm guessing they haven't fully decided whether they'll do <canvas> yet or not.
  597. # [18:24] <paul_irish> you saw the amd press release that hinted at it, yes?
  598. # [18:24] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  599. # [18:24] <paul_irish> http://blogs.amd.com/developer/2010/03/16/ie9-takes-advantage-of-the-gpu/ " The <canvas> element will be accelerated on the GPU via Direct2D and...."
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  601. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  602. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> I wonder if AMD knows what it's talking about.
  603. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> That looks like a blog post, not a press release.
  604. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> "The information presented in this document is for informational purposes only and may contain technical inaccuracies, omissions and typographical errors. Links to third party sites are for convenience only, and no endorsement is implied."
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  606. # [18:26] <paul_irish> hah. true.
  607. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> Google isn't clear on whether Robin Maffeo works for Microsoft or AMD.
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  610. # [18:32] <JonathanNeal> Any responses / opinions about article previews?
  611. # [18:33] <JonathanNeal> I'm hoping this question clears up future decisions I make about how to organize my content.
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  613. # [18:47] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Or they've decided but don't want to announce it quite yet
  614. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> I guess.
  615. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> Maybe they don't want to announce plans for anything they haven't implemented, in case they have to scrap it.
  616. # [18:48] <Philip`> Need some extra features to keep people interested in future releases
  617. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> I expect that if they knew for sure they wouldn't implement it, they'd probably say so.
  618. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> They've said that for other things, like Acid3.
  619. # [18:49] <Philip`> They've announced <video> but not shipped it in the preview build
  620. # [18:49] <Philip`> so the current version is definitely not the complete set of features
  621. # [18:51] <Philip`> They'd probably never say no to anything, but they'd probably do what they did before IE8 and avoid the quesion by just saying they're going to implement things based on customer demand
  622. # [18:52] <Philip`> instead of the current approach of avoiding the question by not responding to it or (if they can't avoid it that way) saying to wait and see
  623. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> They demoed <video>.
  624. # [18:54] <Philip`> (It's fun trying to reach conclusions based on non-information, even if it's not a very accurate method)
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  626. # [18:56] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
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  629. # [19:03] <adactio> I believe the plan is for Microsoft to release updates to the developer preview of IE9 at regular intervals. I suspect each release will include more updates.
  630. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> I'd assume that they wouldn't make a new release with no updates.
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  633. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> It's every eight weeks, by the way.
  634. # [19:06] * ap_ is now known as ap
  635. # [19:07] <Philip`> Roughly every eight
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  637. # [19:10] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  638. # [19:11] <Philip`> (... i.e. they're not committing to a fixed schedule in the style of other browsers' nightly builds)
  639. # [19:12] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  640. # [19:12] <Philip`> (Not that that makes much difference, as long as you're not marking the dates on your calendar in advance)
  641. # [19:12] * GPH-Laptop is now known as GPHemsley
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  643. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> You mean you're not? :(
  644. # [19:23] <Philip`> I don't have a calendar
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  646. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> "For years, Viacom continuously and secretly uploaded its content to YouTube, even while publicly complaining about its presence there. It hired no fewer than 18 different marketing agencies to upload its content to the site. It deliberately "roughed up" the videos to make them look stolen or leaked. It opened YouTube accounts using phony email addresses. It even sent employees to Kinko's to upload clips from computers that couldn't be traced
  647. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> to Viacom. And in an effort to promote its own shows, as a matter of company policy Viacom routinely left up clips from shows that had been uploaded to YouTube by ordinary users. Executives as high up as the president of Comedy Central and the head of MTV Networks felt "very strongly" that clips from shows like The Daily Show and The Colbert Report should remain on YouTube." http://youtube-global.blogspot.com/2010/03/broadcast-yourself.html
  648. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> Wow.
  649. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> Of course, it was posted by a lawyer and relates to an ongoing legal case, so possibly it's all lies, but still.
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  655. # [19:44] * JoePeck_ is now known as JoePeck
  656. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> Is there a standards-compliant way to tell whether a page has already finished loading from JavaScript, if the script might be executed after the load event has fired (e.g., from a bookmarklet)?
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  660. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> I mean a standards-compliant way that's not completely hackish, needless to say.
  661. # [19:57] <paul_irish> document.readyState though it doesnt have great support.
  662. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> (apropos: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1588514&cid=31536576)
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  665. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> Oh well, I guess he was right then.
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  669. # [20:35] * AryehGregor finds that when working through his spec mail backlog, he only gets to the really long threads later on
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  706. # [21:56] <zcorpan> http://flashisdead.tumblr.com/
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  711. # [21:59] <Dashiva> Google finance doesn't look like it uses any magical aspects of flash, but maybe I'm missing advanced features
  712. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> Analytics seems similar. It looks like it would work fine with canvas and/or SVG.
  713. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Chatroulette is fair until <device> works.
  714. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Dunno about the others.
  715. # [22:01] <Dashiva> Homestar runner is fair enough, flash is made for animation. But it's not that it's impossible, there just aren't any tools to do it the HTML5 way
  716. # [22:01] <MikeSmith> "let's see your html5 do this" is a nice slogan
  717. # [22:01] <Dashiva> Sound mixing has been requested several times, so that's fair too
  718. # [22:02] <Dashiva> Image editors... seems like canvas could handle that fine
  719. # [22:04] * zcorpan wants to see html5 do those things
  720. # [22:04] <Dashiva> Important difference between html5 can do x, and someone has actually done the work to create a html5 tool doing x
  721. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> Wait until IE < 9 has, let's say, under 5% market share.
  722. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> So, I don't know, 2026?
  723. # [22:04] <zcorpan> Dashiva: indeed
  724. # [22:05] <Dashiva> As long as flash has 98% or whatever, most people will be happy using existing tools
  725. # [22:05] <Dashiva> Or at least grudgingly accepting :P
  726. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> Not if they know HTML+CSS but not Flash.
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  728. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> They have to learn HTML+CSS+JS anyway, so if they no longer have any reason to use Flash, they'll stick with a unified setup.
  729. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> That's our major advantage.
  730. # [22:06] <Dashiva> I mean the users
  731. # [22:06] <Dashiva> As long as there exist tools that solve their problems, there's reduced demand for creating equivalent html5 tools
  732. # [22:07] <JonathanNeal> If I want to say my page is in english in HTML5, where should I place the attributes that dictate this?
  733. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> It's the authors who will control the switch. Users aren't going to know or care whether you use HTML5 or Flash, on the whole.
  734. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Existing tools have to be maintained, maybe rewritten occasionally.
  735. # [22:07] <Dashiva> Authors respond to demand, though
  736. # [22:07] <JonathanNeal> <html lang="en-US"> ? <meta http-equiv="content-language" content="en">
  737. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> They'll fade over time.
  738. # [22:07] <JonathanNeal> Both?
  739. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Authors will adopt HTML5 over Flash because it makes their lives easier or improves the quality of their product, not because their users explicitly demand it.
  740. # [22:07] <zcorpan> JonathanNeal: just <html lang>
  741. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, <html lang> is the better bet.
  742. # [22:08] <JonathanNeal> So <html en-US></html> ?
  743. # [22:08] <Dashiva> Again, not direct demand
  744. # [22:08] <JonathanNeal> Oh!
  745. # [22:08] <JonathanNeal> <html lang="en-US">, got it.
  746. # [22:09] <zcorpan> yep
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  751. # [22:11] <JonathanNeal> So <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> became <meta charset="UTF-8">? If so, does this only affect http-equiv="content-type", or any other http-equiv?
  752. # [22:12] <Dashiva> Only content-type
  753. # [22:13] <Dashiva> It's the result of supporting <meta http-equiv=content-type content=text/html; charset=utf-8>
  754. # [22:14] <JonathanNeal> So meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" became meta charset="UTF-8" and meta http-equiv="content-language" content="en-US" became html lang="en-US" ... cool.
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  756. # [22:14] <Dashiva> No, lang appeared on its own
  757. # [22:14] <Dashiva> The header content-language and @lang are different in subtle and confusing ways
  758. # [22:15] <Dashiva> (Otherwise we might've been saved the thread about it...)
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  767. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> I've spent more than two hours reading all my spec mail. :(
  768. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> But I'm finally done.
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  776. # [22:45] <JonathanNeal> Question about writing out Element Attributes; should they always be arranged alphabetically? href="@page-url@" title="@go-to@ @page-title@", content="@site-author@" name="author", or do they have an arrangement written somewhere?
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  782. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> What?
  783. # [22:47] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, what to me?
  784. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> Element attributes are logically unordered. Use whatever order you like.
  785. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure what your question is, exactly.
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  787. # [22:48] <JonathanNeal> Okay, you answered my question, I didn't know if I'm supposed to write id="myId" class="myclassname" or if class="myclassname" id="myId" was just as correct, sorting alphabetically.
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  791. # [22:51] <JonathanNeal> Thanks, I was wondering if there was a logical order.
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  793. # [22:51] <JonathanNeal> Because if element attributes are logically unordered, we could order them alphabetically, like we do with CSS properties.
  794. # [22:51] <Philip`> That doesn't sound logical
  795. # [22:51] <Philip`> You'd end up writing <a class="foo" href="bar"> etc
  796. # [22:52] <Philip`> when clearly it should be <a href...>
  797. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> Any order is fine.
  798. # [22:53] <miketaylr> i never alphabetize my css
  799. # [22:54] <Dashiva> The only CSS that's alphabetical is the indexes :P
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  801. # [22:54] <miketaylr> :)
  802. # [22:56] <Philip`> I line up my DVDs in order of increasing height of the age rating icon on the spine, but even I don't alphabetise CSS
  803. # [22:57] <JonathanNeal> What's up with meta content="IE=8;chrome=1" http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" not validating?
  804. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> X-UA-Compatible is a non-standard extension.
  805. # [22:57] <JonathanNeal> You don't alphabetize your css properties? Huh.
  806. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> So it's not supposed to validate as standard.
  807. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> Also, will that value actually work?
  808. # [22:58] <AryehGregor> It seems like you could just leave out the IE part, unless you specifically don't want your site to work in IE9 for some reason.
  809. # [22:59] <JonathanNeal> Well, no the issue is that IE runs in IE7 mode on intranets, so I just learned from paul_irish
  810. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> Oh, right.
  811. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> That's true.
  812. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> If it's an intranet, you could just reconfigure them all, couldn't you?
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  814. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> I'm told that's easy on Windows intranets.
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  818. # [23:00] <JonathanNeal> Sure.
  819. # [23:01] <JonathanNeal> So, writing <body><div id="document" role="document"></div></body> is the worst idea ever and standards-breaking, or valid and at my descretion?
  820. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> It seems to be technically valid as far as HTML5 is concerned, unless I missed the part that bans it.
  821. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> It seems pointless, though.
  822. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> <body> has implicit document semantics.
  823. # [23:07] <JonathanNeal> Right, but I think this could be useful when you're in a modx, Facebook, or another portal based page where you have a dock or a chat application that sits aside the div#document.
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  825. # [23:07] <Philip`> JonathanNeal: If you use x-ua-compatible, you should use "IE=edge" so that it always uses the latest version
  826. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> Are you testing the effect that role is having here in an actual UA that supports role, or just speculatively adding markup in case maybe for someone it would be better than not having the markup?
  827. # [23:08] <Philip`> (so that you benefit from improved performance and standardiness in future versions)
  828. # [23:09] <paul_irish> Philip`: yah i was thinking the same.
  829. # [23:10] <JonathanNeal> Philip`, good call.
  830. # [23:10] <Dashiva> Or so you contribute to IE=edge becoming frozen as IE8 because too many people use it and depend on quirks~
  831. # [23:10] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, both.
  832. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, don't do the latter, ever. Do not add features you can't test. They'll probably make things worse. UAs can deal with you ignoring their existence, they can't deal with you giving them explicit instructions that turn out to make no sense because you didn't test them.
  833. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> I've learned this the hard way.
  834. # [23:11] <JonathanNeal> Dashiva, I have corrected this.
  835. # [23:11] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, what tools do you recommend I use to test these?
  836. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, I don't know. But if you aren't testing, don't use the feature, period. You *will* do it wrong and your site *will* break when someone finally does implement the feature. Guaranteed.
  837. # [23:13] <Philip`> Dashiva: He should use IE=edge and not depend on quirks
  838. # [23:13] <JonathanNeal> I take the red pill, AryehGregor.
  839. # [23:13] <Philip`> and should test in various browsers and in IE betas
  840. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, what?
  841. # [23:14] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, http://izanbardprince.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/red-pill-or-blue-pill.jpg
  842. # [23:14] <Dashiva> Philip`: Yeah. The problem is that if enough other people don't, his site will still be affected.
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  845. # [23:15] <Philip`> Dashiva: He'll be affected less than if he uses IE=8
  846. # [23:15] <Dashiva> That's true
  847. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, I've seen The Matrix. I have no idea what you mean in context.
  848. # [23:17] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, I mean that I'm risky and I wanna see what happens --- but really if no tool exists to evaluate this then I can theorize.
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  850. # [23:18] <JonathanNeal> The spec says I can, and it makes sense to me this way, so the only reason I could provide against it would be that someone implements it differently.
  851. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> No, that is an absolutely terrible idea. Drop it immediately. You're doing a disservice to yourself and your users and the web as a whole. Deploying a feature that hasn't yet been implemented is almost guaranteed to break, and that either 1) hurts your users if their site breaks, or (worse) 2) hurts browsers because they get complaints from users that the site breaks in the new version, since the new version implements the feature you're u
  852. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> sing brokenly.
  853. # [23:19] <AryehGregor> What will happen is that either you will misunderstand the spec somehow, or else the implementation will have some quirk you weren't expecting. I have had this happen to me *multiple* times.
  854. # [23:19] <AryehGregor> When I learned that Opera supposed datalist, I added support to MediaWiki and tested in Opera -- only to find out that actually there was a slight quirk I never would have predicted that made it behave worse than the non-datalist functionality.
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  856. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> When I learned that Opera supported attributes like pattern on inputs, I added pattern to lots of inputs, and tested. It turned out that if a password field fails a constraint, it will print the value of the password field in plaintext.
  857. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> In both cases, if I had blindly added the feature without testing it in any actual user-agent, it would have caused significant *harm* to users when Opera added the feature.
  858. # [23:21] <JonathanNeal> You could test, what do I have to test? JAWS?
  859. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> In another case, when I was young and stupid and didn't yet realize the absolute necessity of testing, I added a handheld stylesheet to MediaWiki without having any mobile UA handy, figuring something was better than nothing. This actually broke Opera Mobile (or Mini or something), to the point that they went to the effort to dig up wikitech-l and ask there for us to remove our handheld stylesheet because it was broken.
  860. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> If you care about blind users, then yes, absolutely test in JAWS.
  861. # [23:22] <JonathanNeal> Just because I'm pushing back doesn't mean I'm disregarding what you're saying, just developing with you.
  862. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> Add whatever features demonstrably make your users' experience better.
  863. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> Do not add features that don't do anything and might or might not do something in the future just because you can.
  864. # [23:24] <JonathanNeal> Right, change for change sake. I'm trying to take advantage of meaning to enforce existing standards. For instance, most folks need a <div id="wrapper" /> or something like that on their site. Something that wraps all the pages content and separates it from another application on the page.
  865. # [23:24] <JonathanNeal> And that lead me to look into the role document and application, which seemed to fit perfectly in this paradigm, and describes itself as such.
  866. # [23:24] <JonathanNeal> And goes as far as to say this scope doesn't apply to the whole page, but part of the page.
  867. # [23:25] <JonathanNeal> So I thought, let's take this great thing and mix it in with the existing need for a wrapper, consolidating the two.
  868. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> Semantics for semantics' sake is just as bad.
  869. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> Keep this in mind: if you use role nowhere at all, your page will be like 99.9% of pages out there. Screen readers for the blind will be able to handle that.
  870. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> So it will work fine.
  871. # [23:26] <JonathanNeal> What about consolidation by means of semantics?
  872. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> If you use role *incorrectly*, your site will work *worse*. It might become unusable, even.
  873. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> The gains are not worth the risk from any kind of practical standpoint.
  874. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, that's a string of buzzwords, not an actual reason.
  875. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> An example of a reason to use role="something or other" would be "so JAWS does X instead of Y".
  876. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> Where X is better than Y.
  877. # [23:27] <JonathanNeal> As we get to know each other more, you'll learn I'm not a buzzword guy.
  878. # [23:30] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Quit: miketaylr)
  879. # [23:30] <JonathanNeal> I think there's a balance, and sometimes you have to edge past the 99.9% paradigm, get the test results, learn, and develop. Then progress is made. And it looks like I have good counsel in this room to remind me how dangerous it can be to force users to adopt my suggestions :)
  880. # [23:33] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.22)
  881. # [23:33] <AryehGregor> I've added a whole lot of HTML5 features to MediaWiki (thus to eventually be deployed on Wikipedia), and I have always followed this maxim: only add something if I can clearly spell out a user-visible benefit.
  882. # [23:33] * Joins: vladikoff (~dsadasd@bas1-woodbridge48-1176128613.dsl.bell.ca)
  883. # [23:33] * Joins: grimboy (~grimboy@89.242.190.93)
  884. # [23:35] * AryehGregor remembers he needs to work out something about validation of HTML5 with non-HTML5 doctype, ugh
  885. # [23:38] <othermaciej> Hixie: are you around?
  886. # [23:39] <JonathanNeal> I like that AryehGregor, and thanks for taking the time to chat about it with me.
  887. # [23:39] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-176-223.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  888. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> You can look at <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/HTML5> for a list of features we (I) have implemented.
  889. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> I have to go now, though.
  890. # [23:40] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: neat
  891. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, it might be enabled on Wikipedia soon, but I've been saying that for like six months. :P
  892. # [23:41] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: just use http://html5.validator.nu/
  893. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> Code review has been very slow lately, and since I'm not a sysadmin I can't sneak in my changes without a full deployment, but 1.16rc1 has been released, and a deployment of 1.16 to Wikimedia is supposed to follow before 1.16 final.
  894. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, I can, but other people use validator.w3.org.
  895. # [23:43] <zcorpan> if (ua == 'validator') echo '<!doctype html><title></title>'; else { ...
  896. # [23:43] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, yea the long term elements will be an interesting piece of tackle, since many yesterday mobile browsers won't work with html5 elements, even with the "shiv" javascript hack.
  897. # [23:43] <JonathanNeal> I look forward to seeing how that goes, have fun.
  898. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, . . . that is so evil that I never even thought of it, but it just might work.
  899. # [23:44] * AryehGregor will keep it in mind.
  900. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> Won't work on Wikipedia, though, Squid caching.
  901. # [23:48] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Leaving)
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  906. # Session Close: Sat Mar 20 00:00:00 2010

The end :)