/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-04 / end

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  58. # [02:36] <[bjoern]> http://www.websitedev.de/temp/canvas-heatmap-2.html -- Should this be part of a circle with a solid blue color in the upper left corner (QtWebkit), a colorful circle somewhere on the canvas (Firefox nightly), or a large colorful rectangle (Opera)?
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  82. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> [bjoern]: Safari and Chrome on OSX vote for making it the large colorful rectangle
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  85. # [04:04] <[bjoern]> That suits me, I'll claim that's the correct behavior then. Thanks.
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  93. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/azaaza/status/15383718153
  94. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> "Did you know Apple has a Web Apps directory? You have to be an ADC Premier member to submit. http://www.apple.com/webapps/"
  95. # [04:41] <paul_irish> it's the web app store that gets no traffic!
  96. # [04:41] <paul_irish> \o/
  97. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> :)
  98. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> http://www.apple.com/webapps/utilities/html5reference.html
  99. # [04:47] <miketaylr> link to: http://www.biocourseware.com/iphone/html5/index.htm#1 ?
  100. # [04:48] <miketaylr> bogus, totally isn't working in any browsers on this mac :/
  101. # [04:49] * miketaylr failed to realize its an iphone webapp :(
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  108. # [05:11] <MikeSmithX> http://twitter.com/emilbjorklund/status/15328003664
  109. # [05:11] <MikeSmithX> "Second annoyance of the day: the html5 spec links you get from the validator crashes firefox."
  110. # [05:11] <MikeSmithX> should have v.nu link to the multipage version of the spec
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  141. # [07:59] <zcorpan_> awesome how http://www.apple.com/html5/ refuses to show the demos in any other browser than safari
  142. # [08:00] <zcorpan_> including chrome
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  144. # [08:04] <Peter`> A few months from now they'll have a fair reason to do that with <video>, being the only major browser which doesn't support WebM ;-)
  145. # [08:04] <zcorpan_> i assume chrome is still going to support h.264
  146. # [08:05] <Peter`> As will IE 9 :) Loading the full URL of a test in Chrome doesn't work either ( http://www.apple.com/html5/showcase/typography/ ), redirects to the overview page
  147. # [08:05] <Peter`> Ironically the sliders are broken in Safari
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  166. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> wtf
  167. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML/chapter3.html#id.3.5.1.2
  168. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> allowed values are (top | bottom | center | baseline | axis) [ rownumber ]
  169. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> where [ rownumber ] is an optional number that can be appended to "top", "bottom", etc.?
  170. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> e.g., top3 ?
  171. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> can that really be?
  172. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> attribute align {xsd:string {
  173. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> pattern ='\s*(top|bottom|center|baseline|axis)\s*[0-9]*'}}?
  174. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> wow
  175. # [08:59] * Parts: [bjoern] (~bjoern@dslb-094-222-135-191.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  176. # [09:11] <boblet> sounds funky
  177. # [09:11] <boblet> gsnedders’ outliner doesn’t show implicit sectioning does it
  178. # [09:14] <boblet> hrm… still not sure if I understand implied sections :/
  179. # [09:15] <zcorpan_> <h1>foo</h1><h2>hi, i'm in an implied section</h1>
  180. # [09:16] <boblet> d’oh! gsnedders’ outliner does show implied sections, but only those without typos
  181. # [09:16] <boblet> obviously the mind-reading update hasn’t happened yet
  182. # [09:17] <boblet> zcorpan_: I kinda understand the theory, but I’m not *feelin’ it* ye
  183. # [09:17] <boblet> yet
  184. # [09:18] <boblet> it’s basically an error correction mechanism, right? for UGE
  185. # [09:18] <boblet> (user-generated errors)
  186. # [09:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: curious that they allow whitespace before but not after
  187. # [09:21] <hsivonen> not after the number
  188. # [09:21] <hsivonen> but before the text
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  190. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the more I see of that vocabulary the more it scares me
  191. # [09:24] <boblet> another outlining q: using <body><article><h1>title</h1>… gives a root “Untitled section”. wassup with that? we’re meant to add a heading element outside sectioning content? I don’t get where it’s coming from
  192. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> anyway, it seems clear there are some more deficiencies in that MathML 2.0 rng schema
  193. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> I'm wondering if it would be easier to just start with the MathML 3.0 one and remove stuff
  194. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> maybe I should ping David Carlisle and ask
  195. # [09:25] <jgraham> boblet: Implied sections are basically HTML4
  196. # [09:26] <jgraham> boblet: The <body> element is also a sectioning element
  197. # [09:26] <boblet> jgraham: aah! I forgot about sectioning root. doh
  198. # [09:26] <boblet> thanks
  199. # [09:26] <jgraham> So if you have <body><h1>My funky site</h1><article><h1>My article everything works
  200. # [09:27] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@82.204.83.135) (Quit: reboot)
  201. # [09:27] <boblet> outlining algorithm needs to be communicated by mind-meld. explaining it in writing is brutal
  202. # [09:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: have you filed the scary stuff as spec bugs against MathML 3?
  203. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> no
  204. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> I guess I should
  205. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> I just wonder if any of this stuff is actually supported
  206. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> I mean, what does align=baseline3 even mean?
  207. # [09:29] * hsivonen has no idea
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  211. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, you got my question from the other day about hooking v.nu HTML5 parser into other java apps?
  212. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100602#l-181
  213. # [09:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I've missed that bit in the logs
  214. # [09:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: you need a DocumentBuilderFactory that instantiates HtmlDocumentBuilder
  215. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> OK
  216. # [09:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I haven't supplied one, because I wasn't aware of people actually needing one
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  218. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I was thinking it would be useful for anybody who wants to just use the HTML5 parser in place of whatever existing XML one
  219. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> e.g., with Saxon
  220. # [09:36] <hsivonen> I thought they'd just do new HtmlDocumentBuilder
  221. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> or jing or whatever
  222. # [09:36] <hsivonen> I didn't realize people actually want the factory stuff
  223. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> I mean using it from the command-line
  224. # [09:36] <hsivonen> but yeah, that would be doable
  225. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> OK
  226. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> should I open a bug for it?
  227. # [09:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes, please
  228. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> ok
  229. # [09:39] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Surely there is a combining overbar character somewhere in unicode?
  230. # [09:41] * Parts: davidhund__ (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl)
  231. # [09:41] <zcorpan_> jgraham: with multiple overbars?
  232. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what sax, what would the corresponding SAXParserFactory need to instantiate?
  233. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> sax/HtmlParser ?
  234. # [09:48] <hsivonen> yeah
  235. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> ok
  236. # [09:55] <boblet> does “sectioning element” mean anything specific in the spec? I’d like to use it as a reference for sectioning content and sectioning root elements, but wonder if it’s already being used to mean something else…
  237. # [09:57] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Maybe not
  238. # [09:57] <jgraham> (but you would have thought there would be if you need it for roman numerals)
  239. # [09:57] <boblet> can’t find it in the spec, so maybe I’m safe
  240. # [09:58] <boblet> roman numerals?
  241. # [09:59] <boblet> oh, you mean I should have said “as shorthand for…”?
  242. # [10:00] <jgraham> boblet: I was replying to zcorpan_
  243. # [10:00] <boblet> jgraham: haha, d’oh
  244. # [10:01] <boblet> orz
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  269. # [12:04] <zcorpan_> 'interact with web standards' just arrived to my door
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  273. # [12:21] <sid123> hi I wanted to know about the storage limit of web data bases... There is a size parameter that is provided to the Database initilaization... But is that followed strictly or are there limits on it in any way?
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  275. # [12:40] <Lachy> wow. What a great way to promote HTML5 and web standards, by requiring the use of Safari to view any of their demos http://www.apple.com/html5/
  276. # [12:40] <Lachy> </sarcasm>
  277. # [12:40] <zcorpan_> old news
  278. # [12:40] <Lachy> well, new to me. I only just read my news feeds
  279. # [12:41] <boblet> adactio: thanks for the email (was starting to wonder if I had the right addy :P )
  280. # [12:41] <adactio> boblet: yeah, really sorry it took me so long to respond. :-(
  281. # [12:41] <boblet> heh
  282. # [12:41] <boblet> adactio: not like you’ve been up to much either :|
  283. # [12:42] <adactio> boblet: ;-)
  284. # [12:42] <boblet> thanks for the feedback tho, really appreciated (just finished a big screed on sectioning root today)
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  286. # [12:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'm rather amazed that whoever put the browser sniffing in place didn't notice the mismatch with the message and readjust
  287. # [12:46] <hsivonen> or then, the message isn't really about standards but about Safari vs. Flash
  288. # [12:46] <hsivonen> not even about WebKit vs. Flash
  289. # [12:46] * hsivonen hasn't yet bothered to examine the demos in Safari to see how the VR demo works
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  291. # [12:50] <hsivonen> ah. CSS 3D Transforms
  292. # [12:51] <hsivonen> at least their developer site has the decency to call them "Safari Technology Demos"
  293. # [12:51] <Rik`> in the video example, they're using a CSS mask. It's not yet in any draft, is it ?
  294. # [12:52] <zcorpan_> it's web standards!1
  295. # [12:53] <boblet> bbl
  296. # [12:53] * Disconnected
  297. # [12:54] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  298. # [12:54] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  299. # [12:54] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  300. # [12:54] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  301. # [12:54] <hsivonen> more clever than dealing with a spherical mapping
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  308. # [13:30] <hsivonen> where can I find a signed Chrome extension?
  309. # [13:31] <Peter`> Signed how?
  310. # [13:32] <hsivonen> Peter`: that's what I want to find out
  311. # [13:32] <Peter`> they're just zip files with a certificate to generate an unique hash
  312. # [13:32] <hsivonen> Peter`: where's the cert?
  313. # [13:33] <Peter`> hsivonen: On the computer of the person who packed it, as a .pem file
  314. # [13:33] <Peter`> You can rename .crx to .zip and it'll work as well
  315. # [13:33] <hsivonen> Peter`: where's the signature?
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  317. # [13:34] <Peter`> I think it's only used to generate the extension hash, used for auto-updating and such. It's not in the archive either
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  319. # [13:35] <hsivonen> Peter`: ah. that doesn't match what the intro video on youtube said
  320. # [13:36] <Peter`> I could be wrong, I'm not a Chrome developer, just somewhat familiar with the code. Best place to ask probably would be #chromium
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  325. # [14:08] <hsivonen> well, I just asked on the whatwg list
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  332. # [14:33] <boblet> hey all, more questions on outlining algorithm — what’s it’s raison d'être? does it assist UAs to provide direct access? is it to assist browsers in DOM reflow? something else?
  333. # [14:33] <boblet> I feel like I understand it without really getting it
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  336. # [14:35] <hsivonen> boblet: the primary point is allowing browsers to provide UI for navigating directly a section or getting an overview of teh document structure
  337. # [14:35] <hsivonen> boblet: mainly for screen readers
  338. # [14:35] <hsivonen> boblet: the secondary point is styling based on outline depth
  339. # [14:36] <hsivonen> boblet: which depends on whether browser vendors and the CSS WG add a way of selecting on outline depth
  340. # [14:36] <hsivonen> if such a selector proves to be infeasible, well...
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  342. # [14:49] <boblet> hsivonen: sorry — story time. thanks for your explanation
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  344. # [14:51] <boblet> so for sectioning root elements like figure and blockquote, is it expected they’ll contain large chunks of content with headers, or that UAs will provide access to sectioning root outlines?
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  346. # [14:52] <boblet> I’m not sure why sectioning root outlines don’t contribute to the main outline — perhaps because they normally lack a heading?
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  349. # [14:57] <hsivonen> boblet: the idea is to hide quoted stuff from the main outline
  350. # [15:00] <boblet> hsivonen: quoted stuff (blockquote/figure) and generally non-outline stuff (details, fieldset, td) that sometimes contains headings, right?
  351. # [15:03] <hsivonen> boblet: right
  352. # [15:06] <boblet> hsivonen: ok, thanks for your explanation. I was worried there might have been something else that I wasn’t getting, but it appears not
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  385. # [17:06] * TabAtkins is sad whenever he sees attributes which accept true/false.
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  388. # [17:06] <TabAtkins> Rather than either being binary or giving the values better names for future extensibility.
  389. # [17:08] <Philip`> true/false allows plenty of room for extensibility
  390. # [17:08] <Philip`> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/What_Is_Truth_0x3f_.aspx
  391. # [17:08] <TabAtkins> true/false/file-not-found
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  417. # [18:22] <asmodai> lol
  418. # [18:22] <asmodai> http://i.imgur.com/cT08B.png
  419. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> Is html5test.com actually a competent testing service?
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  421. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> Some of the tests look bogus to me.
  422. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> Like testing for specific audio and video codecs.
  423. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> And it reports that Chrome dev channel doesn't support the autocomplete attribute, which is nonsense -- browsers have all supported that for years, haven't they?
  424. # [18:28] * AryehGregor doesn't trust it
  425. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> Safari and Chrome have practically identical HTML5 conformance if you compare comparable versions, because they both use WebKit.
  426. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> We do different things on top of that base, though.
  427. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> Some things show up in Chrome before we push them all the way back to Webkit, frex.
  428. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> Not ones that are relevant to almost any of the features that html5test.com supposedly test.
  429. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> And presumably the same sometimes happens with Safari.
  430. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> A few, yes, but not many.
  431. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> Yeah, wouldn't know about that.
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  434. # [18:45] <Philip`> It seems the popularity of a test suite is very highly correlated with how easy it is for a random user to run it in their own browser and see a big clear interestingly-designed page indicating the results
  435. # [18:46] <Philip`> and very loosely correlated with the quality or range of its test cases
  436. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> That makes sense. Random users have no idea how to evaluate the quality of tests or their coverage.
  437. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> They *can* evaluate whether or not it runs, and how pretty a results page is.
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  443. # [18:50] <Philip`> (Popularity isn't a particularly important metric for a test suite, though)
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  448. # [19:08] <boblet> is there a section on design principles in WHATWG spec? similar to http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/
  449. # [19:16] <Philip`> boblet: Those principles were mostly just writing down the principles that had been used in the WHATWG process
  450. # [19:16] <Philip`> so there's no difference
  451. # [19:17] <boblet> Philip`: thanks
  452. # [19:17] <Philip`> (They weren't written down explicitly before then)
  453. # [19:17] <Philip`> (mostly since they were already obvious to most WHATWG members)
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  465. # [19:42] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: btw, we don't have a fork of WebKit. All development for Chromium features happens on WebKit ToT. No pushing is involved :)
  466. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> Ah, I am mistaken then.
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  468. # [19:50] <boblet> regarding the accessibility design principle, would you say that “Design features to be accessible to users with disabilities” could be accurately summarised in “accessibility by default”?
  469. # [19:51] <Dashiva> I would say so, but it's not entirely uncontroversial
  470. # [19:52] <boblet> Dashiva: nothing in a11y ever is :)
  471. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> boblet: Subtly different.
  472. # [19:52] <Dashiva> There's the "bolt-on accessibility is a sign of design failure" and "bolt-on accessibility is the way to great accessibility"
  473. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> The former could mean doing something that *can* be accessible if authors take some effort. The latter would avoid doing that in favor of something that is, well, accessible by default.
  474. # [19:53] <boblet> TabAtkins: oh? uhoh
  475. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> Ideally we want to avoid requiring any author interaction whatsoever to acheive good accessibility.
  476. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> That isn't quite possible, so instead we just minimize the amount of author interaction necessary.
  477. # [19:54] <boblet> well I sense a trend towards things being more accessible by default, eg moving attribute-based meta info into main content. but I don’t see anything so nebulous in the design principles :)
  478. # [19:54] <boblet> aah
  479. # [19:55] <Dashiva> Where possible, trick authors into writing accessible content without realizing it
  480. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Got it, Dashiva. ^_^
  481. # [19:55] <boblet> :/
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  483. # [19:56] <boblet> actually… Dashiva, can I quote you on that?
  484. # [19:56] <boblet> ;)
  485. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> Simple, widely-attested truth - the amount of accessible content decreases exponentially with the amount of effort required.
  486. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> (Well, maybe not exponentially - I don't have any numbers to attest that. But super-linear at least.)
  487. # [19:57] <boblet> no doubt
  488. # [19:57] <Dashiva> Re: moving attribute-based meta info into main content, that's not primarily for accessibility, that's because hidden metadata has problems in itself
  489. # [19:58] <Dashiva> But accessibility-targeted hidden metadata is has even more problems
  490. # [19:58] <Dashiva> -is
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  492. # [19:58] <boblet> I was referring to previously a11y-focussed metadata like whatever-it-is on table
  493. # [19:58] <Dashiva> Since it's not only hidden, but it's basically non-existent to users who don't need the extra accessibility
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  496. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> Also: people don't know how to write good @summary text. And auto-generated @summary is useless - if it can be autogenerated by the producer, it can be auto-generated by the consumer equally well.
  497. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> And then the consumer *knows* that it's auto-generated and can treat it differently than custom-crafted text.
  498. # [20:01] <boblet> yeah, I completely agree with the idea
  499. # [20:01] <boblet> did the issue about that get resolved? I should check…
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  501. # [20:04] <boblet> review huh
  502. # [20:06] <AryehGregor> http://beta.html5test.com/ actually looks pretty good.
  503. # [20:07] <AryehGregor> Blech, it tests <device>, is that even specced yet?
  504. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> It *exists* in a spec.
  505. # [20:07] <boblet> I hope someone starts graphing score over time in one of these sometime
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  507. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> It's not "specced" though.
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  511. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> http://damowmow.com/playground/htmlwg/chart.html "Last updated NaN days ago."
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  514. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> var updateStr = ' Last updated ' + (age < 1 ? 'today' : age.toFixed(0) + ' day' + (age.toFixed(0) == 1 ? '' : 's') + ' ago') + '.';
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  517. # [20:31] <Dashiva> Good-ole' NaN
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  522. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> The problem is the toFixed(0) call. It appears to give "NaN" as the result for any number.
  523. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> At least, here in Chrome.
  524. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> Firefox does it right.
  525. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> So, looks like a bug on our end.
  526. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> The display doesn't work for me either.
  527. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah, me neither.
  528. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> What do you want to bet it's toFixed again?
  529. # [20:44] <Dashiva> It errors in Opera on a lineTo call
  530. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> Is this test completely broken, or is it just me? http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/html5/selection/select.htm
  531. # [20:46] <Dashiva> There's a NaN object in there
  532. # [20:46] <Dashiva> Hum
  533. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Looking at the source code, it looks as though it selects the contents of the input, then checks whether the contents are *not* selected, or something similarly crazy.
  534. # [20:49] <boblet> I’m wondering what the big a11y changes in HTML5 are. I know alt text, longdesc, table summary, plus the current video/canvas and interactive element (progress, details etc) issues. anything else I’m missing?
  535. # [20:49] <Dashiva> It looks fine to me, where in the code is the problem?
  536. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, it does input1.select(), then checkDefaultSelectionAttributes(). The latter checks things like null != selection.anchorNode. Why should selection.anchorNode be null if you just selected the input?
  537. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> boblet: Not an expert, but I think that's it.
  538. # [20:53] <boblet> TabAtkins: thanks. more sanity-checking than anything :)
  539. # [20:55] <Dashiva> AryehGregor: Those don't apply to selection in input fields
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  544. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, where does the spec say that? It says that text fields have their own selections, but not that selecting text in text fields doesn't also select it in the browsing context. Am I missing something?
  545. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> It just says that the UA should allow the user to change the selection.
  546. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> "This one selection must be shared by all the content of the browsing context (though not by nested browsing contexts), including any editing hosts in the document."\
  547. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> s/\\//
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  549. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> Firefox and WebKit seem to have the more plausible interpretation to me.
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  551. # [21:35] <Dashiva> AryehGregor: Firefox seems weird to me
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  556. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Ugh, faked browser UI in Chrome: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stewart-abercrombie-baker/smallpox-in-the-garage_b_596340.html
  557. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Evil.
  558. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> They could have done better by using position: fixed.
  559. # [21:42] <Dashiva> AryehGregor: Looks to me like Firefox claims there's a zero-length selection at a random location in the document...
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  561. # [21:43] <Dashiva> When there's no selection at all
  562. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, well, the spec says that the UA should provide a means for the user to change the selection, not that it has to make sense. Clearly, this is merely a quality-of-implementation issue, and everyone passes.
  563. # [21:44] <Dashiva> The spec also says "Returns null if there's no selection."
  564. # [21:44] <Dashiva> Which firefox does not
  565. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> Well, perhaps Firefox has simply chosen to interpret page load as a user choice of selection.
  566. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> This is what happens when you leave UI totally undefined, am I right? :)
  567. # [21:46] <Dashiva> If at any point you (or a script) have selected anything, it never forgets
  568. # [21:46] <Dashiva> E.g. select some random text, remove the selection, and it claims there's a zero-length selection at the start of the ex-selection
  569. # [21:47] <Dashiva> If there is no ex-selection (such as in that test), it picks body for some reason
  570. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Whee.
  571. # [21:48] <Dashiva> Never mind
  572. # [21:48] <Dashiva> It picks the parent of the input the script selected
  573. # [21:49] <Dashiva> But the offsets are 1, not the offset of the input
  574. # [21:50] <Dashiva> http://dashiva.net/test/selection.html
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  594. # [22:29] <dglazkov> nobody wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn. Well said.
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  596. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Haha, yes.
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  600. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> What?
  601. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> On the whatwg list.
  602. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> Ohl
  603. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> Oh.
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  618. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Oh man, using unicode box-drawing characters when doing ascii illustrations is 1000% sexier than using +-|.
  619. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> Though I suppose it no longer qualifies as "ascii". ^_^
  620. # [23:08] <Dashiva> Real men use 1x1 pixel divs
  621. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> Real men use tables with background-colors on the cells.
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  623. # [23:09] <Dashiva> But that isn't _semantic_
  624. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> Box-drawing characters are the answer, then. Just wrap it in a <pre> and you're golden.
  625. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> (Or just send plain-text emails like I do and hope everyone uses a fixed-width font to view emails.)
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  627. # [23:10] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Tables like in http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2010/05/26/10015253.aspx ?
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  629. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> Yes, exactly like that.
  630. # [23:10] <Philip`> Gmail ought to automatically detect ASCII art and switch to a fixed-width font
  631. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> That wouldn't be overly hard, I bet.
  632. # [23:13] <Dashiva> Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to produce a non-edge case that would trigger a false positive
  633. # [23:13] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I will rely on you and await the feature eagerly
  634. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> What's the easiest way to add new key combos on linux? I know on Windows you can just produce a new keyboard layout file.
  635. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> Philip`: I'll send the suggestion upstream.
  636. # [23:13] * TabAtkins wants to put the box-drawing characters on his keyboard.
  637. # [23:13] <Dashiva> Probably depends on the WM
  638. # [23:14] <Dashiva> There are like four layers of stuff between the app and the keyboard
  639. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> That's dumb.
  640. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> The WM shouldn't be taking part in this. >_<
  641. # [23:14] <Dashiva> I'm trying to stay blissfully unaware, but I stumbled across it via a discussion about some laptop key used to switch displays or something
  642. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> Maybe XKB will work?
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  644. # [23:17] * AryehGregor finally gets the LinkedIn joke
  645. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> It's probably not the WM, it's probably the desktop environment.
  646. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> Which certainly has to take part in things like shortcut keys, although it'd be nice if that sort of thing were standardized.
  647. # [23:22] * Quits: jgornick (~joe@199.199.212.242) (Quit: jgornick)
  648. # [23:25] <jgraham> Philip`: Popularity is an important metric for a testsuite if it causes pressure on implementors to fix specific issues
  649. # [23:25] <jgraham> e.g. Acid 3
  650. # [23:25] <jgraham> (for better or worse)
  651. # [23:29] * Joins: Martijnc` (~martijn@91.176.24.181)
  652. # [23:33] <Philip`> jgraham: True
  653. # [23:34] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-ritqgmkkllrhkumv)
  654. # [23:34] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.24.181)
  655. # [23:38] * Quits: m_W (~mwilcox56@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  656. # [23:39] <jcranmer> TabAtkins: xkb; if you're willing to do compose, a .XCompose file lets you add even more compose keys
  657. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> Ooh, interesting.
  658. # [23:45] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@17.246.18.24)
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  660. # [23:45] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  661. # [23:45] * Quits: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-vytgihktclcuhkgm) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  662. # [23:46] * Joins: tabatkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-htatwxzcbrlxtswg)
  663. # Session Close: Sat Jun 05 00:00:01 2010

The end :)