/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 21 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [01:20] <karlcow> http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2010/04/22/dont-talk-about-users/
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  18. # [01:42] <roc> karlcow: we fought against the results of the 2004 workshop (and earlier decisions) as much as we could
  19. # [01:43] <roc> I hope you're not suggesting that no-one had the foresight to see that the W3C's detour down the XML road was a mistake
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  38. # [04:35] <zcorpan_> i guess flock 3 beta can't play h.264
  39. # [04:46] <zcorpan_> has anyone tested vp8 in flash 10.1?
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  42. # [05:03] <roc> does flash 10.1 support vp*?
  43. # [05:03] <roc> vp8?
  44. # [05:03] <roc> I'd be surprised
  45. # [05:04] <karlcow> it was a "will" in May http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplatform/2010/05/adobe_support_for_vp8.html but I do not think it is the case now.
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  47. # [05:16] <zcorpan_> yay, minefield has -76
  48. # [05:16] <zcorpan_> let's see how it fares on my tests
  49. # [05:19] <zcorpan_> hmm, they have .URL
  50. # [05:19] <roc> websockets?
  51. # [05:19] <zcorpan_> yes
  52. # [05:20] <roc> how does it fare on your tests?
  53. # [05:21] <zcorpan_> you should look over the handling of the opening handshake, most tests there fail
  54. # [05:21] <zcorpan_> broken utf-8 in messages fail
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  56. # [05:23] <zcorpan_> 87 passed out of 159
  57. # [05:26] <zcorpan_> at least it doesn't crash like chrome
  58. # [05:29] <zcorpan_> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100603#l-706
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  63. # [05:35] <roc> zcorpan_: hmm, so your tests aren't publish?
  64. # [05:35] <roc> public?
  65. # [05:36] <zcorpan_> not yet, no
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  67. # [05:46] <zcorpan_> i don't get any close event for invalid handshakes
  68. # [05:52] <franksalim> zcorpan_, hey that's exciting. not the missing close events, but -76 support
  69. # [05:52] <zcorpan_> franksalim: yes
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  133. # [11:18] * gsnedders finds out about the lexical enviroment scope of event handlers
  134. # [11:18] <gsnedders> Wow, that's so much more screwed up than
  135. # [11:18] <gsnedders> I thought it was just the element's object.
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  149. # [12:59] <gsnedders> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#event-handler-content-attributes requires the form owner to be on the lexical scope
  150. # [12:59] <gsnedders> WebKit does this, Gecko and Presto don't
  151. # [12:59] * gsnedders wonders why it's needed
  152. # [13:00] <jgraham> WDIED?
  153. # [13:00] <gsnedders> Dunno, don't have IE
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  159. # [13:49] <zcorpan_> maybe we should allow xmlns:xlink on html elements?
  160. # [13:51] <annevk> SVG should just get native href/src already
  161. # [13:51] <annevk> that's in the planning for quite a while now, at which point everything else will be moot
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  163. # [13:54] <zcorpan_> hmm. so now what, the hybi decides to ignore all feedback that's sent to whatwg?
  164. # [13:55] <annevk> I somewhat doubt Hixie agreed to all what that guy said
  165. # [13:55] <jgraham> HyBi are moving so slowly they are in real danger of being irrelevant
  166. # [13:56] <zcorpan_> maybe the whatwg should declare that the hybi version is unofficial :)
  167. # [13:59] <jgraham> The best part about that email was how they declared that everyone had to move from the WHATWG mailing list to the IETF one but didn't actually CC the email to WHATWG
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  170. # [14:03] <hsivonen> what's the upside of having hybi involved in Web Socket?
  171. # [14:04] <annevk> it's somewhat unclear at this point
  172. # [14:04] <annevk> aiui
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  174. # [14:10] <zcorpan_> jgraham: sending emails to whatwg is counter productive
  175. # [14:11] <annevk> jgraham, yeah, noticed that too; wtf
  176. # [14:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: depends on the content of the emails :-)
  177. # [14:18] <jgraham> hsivonen: AFAICT the value proposition is that IETF has been around a long time. I'm not sure exactly what value that is bringing though
  178. # [14:19] * hsivonen fails to see how having been around is a value proposition
  179. # [14:19] <jgraham> Well that seems to be the major difference between IETF and WHATWG
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  181. # [14:21] <jgraham> I presume the value proposition that implies is having a preexisting concentration of expertise
  182. # [14:21] <jgraham> Not sure how that is panning out with websockets though
  183. # [14:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: so far, I'm unimpressed by "expertise" value propositions around HTML5
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  185. # [14:51] <franksalim> zcorpan_, the IETF version already declares itself unoffical: "NOTE! THIS COPY OF THIS DOCUMENT IS OBSOLETE."
  186. # [14:53] <franksalim> which i now see is mentioned in the latest email to HyBi
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  188. # [14:55] <franksalim> has any of the feedback from the HyBi working group been incorporated? some of it was quite good, in my opinion
  189. # [15:01] <zcorpan_> franksalim: i see some hybi on the list of pending emails in http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#websocket
  190. # [15:02] <zcorpan_> franksalim: i agree some feedback from hybi was good
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  199. # [15:58] <zcorpan_> bufferedAmount doesn't seem to work so well in chrome and firefox -- if i use variants of the bufferedAmount example in the spec, both chrome and firefox send lots of messages in the beginning while almost no messages at all after a short while
  200. # [15:59] <zcorpan_> opera seems to more evenly send messages
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  204. # [16:08] <annevk> I think it's a bit sad there's been more time to consider the handshake feedback a little better
  205. # [16:09] <annevk> not having an HTTP-based handshake and integrating the handshake for TLS connections in the TLS layer would have been nicer I think
  206. # [16:09] <annevk> but getting there now seems rather hard
  207. # [16:09] <annevk> though I suppose yet one more change could be ok, if it happens quickly enough
  208. # [16:16] <franksalim> annevk, are you talking about next protocol negotiation in TLS?
  209. # [16:17] <annevk> the email from Adam Barth
  210. # [16:17] <jgraham> annevk: I think I would hate to write a server with that handshake
  211. # [16:17] <jgraham> At least I would expect it to be much harder
  212. # [16:18] <annevk> jgraham, there would be a far simpler handshake for non-TLS connections in my vision of how it ought to be...
  213. # [16:18] <annevk> jgraham, without all the HTTP crap
  214. # [16:18] <jgraham> annevk: Different handshakes depending on the connection type? Sounds odd
  215. # [16:18] <franksalim> i think that is a good design, however http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-agl-tls-nextprotoneg-00 is deployed almost precisely nowhere
  216. # [16:18] <franksalim> and is in draft stage
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  218. # [16:19] <annevk> franksalim, the "it is in draft stage" is how some W3C groups end up designing formats on top of XSL:FO rather than CSS
  219. # [16:19] <annevk> franksalim, it's not really a compelling argument in my view :)
  220. # [16:19] <franksalim> fair enough
  221. # [16:20] <jgraham> "it's deployed almost precisely nowhere" is a good argument though
  222. # [16:20] <franksalim> but one of the appeals of websocket, imho, is that it works with a lot of what we already have
  223. # [16:20] <franksalim> we would need updated TLS libraries
  224. # [16:20] <franksalim> and that means you wouldn't be able to do the nice little python/perl/* websocket servers
  225. # [16:20] <franksalim> in a few dozen lines
  226. # [16:21] <franksalim> but when nextprotoneg is everywhere, we can do websocket2 very easily
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  230. # [16:23] <franksalim> or not, since nextprotoneg everywhere probably implies SPDY
  231. # [16:25] <annevk> well, if TLS is going to be the dominant form as some people seem to indicate, it would be nice if it didn't require more roundtrips than needed
  232. # [16:26] <annevk> and for the real simple deployment scenario you can have a non-TLS handshake that is simpler than what we have now
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  263. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Where's your HTML5 default UA stylesheet? Google isn't helpful right now.
  264. # [18:54] <JonathanNeal> Heyo
  265. # [18:54] <JonathanNeal> http://www.iecss.com/whatwg.css
  266. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> Excellent, thank you.
  267. # [18:54] <JonathanNeal> I'm sure it could use some revisioning, but that's the one you guys reviewed most recently, based on our last conversations.
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  277. # [19:24] <JonathanNeal> Whatcha up to, TabAtkins?
  278. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> Someone on the CSS lists asked for an HTML5 UA stylesheet, is all.
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  281. # [19:29] <JonathanNeal> Ah, I was getting excited for new critisms and requests.
  282. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> Heh, nah.
  283. # [19:29] <JonathanNeal> *criticism
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  290. # [19:47] * invariable is now known as variable
  291. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> Yay, I'm glad the PDF announcement made its way to the chromium blog. I hate not knowing what things are confidential and what things aren't.
  292. # [19:54] <gsnedders> linky?
  293. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> http://blog.chromium.org/2010/06/bringing-improved-pdf-support-to-google.html
  294. # [19:57] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  295. # [19:59] <JonathanNeal> That's awesome, TabAtkins.
  296. # [20:00] <gsnedders> Does it actually use WebKit for rendering?
  297. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> I dunno.
  298. # [20:01] <TabAtkins> I somewhat doubt it, reasoning from some of the things I've heard about it.
  299. # [20:01] * Joins: Dashiva^2 (~magnusrk@nat/google/x-kbbffpoktcwihzzo)
  300. # [20:02] <Dashiva^2> Yarr
  301. # [20:02] <TabAtkins> Sock puppet!
  302. # [20:02] * TabAtkins can't see joins/quits/renames, and so doesn't know if this is a new Dashiva or the old one with a new name.
  303. # [20:03] <gsnedders> It's a new Dashiva
  304. # [20:03] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@128.12.155.36) (Quit: Leaving)
  305. # [20:04] <Dashiva^2> New and improved?
  306. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> You tell us.
  307. # [20:05] <Dashiva^2> I just thought I
  308. # [20:06] <Dashiva^2> would flag my new colors in the interest of openness and transparency
  309. # [20:08] <JonathanNeal> Does something like audio[controls] exist yet that would actually work, in Chrome or some other?
  310. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> In terms of a selector, or a replacement, or what?
  311. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> Or an audio with controls?
  312. # [20:09] * Joins: mitnavn (~mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn)
  313. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> I know <audio controls> works in Firefox, and I suspect in webkit and opera.
  314. # [20:13] * Joins: jlebar (~jlebar@rescomp-09-168109.Stanford.EDU)
  315. # [20:20] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal, <audio controls="controls"/> works.
  316. # [20:21] <erlehmann> HA HA, I AM USING THE XML SYNTHAX
  317. # [20:21] <JonathanNeal> I meant in terms of the selector.
  318. # [20:21] <erlehmann> why shouldnt it ?
  319. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> Synthrax is like anthrax, only worse.
  320. # [20:21] <erlehmann> afaik you can even make up selectors on the fly
  321. # [20:21] <erlehmann> attribute selectors, that is
  322. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> Indeed, you can. You can select based on data-* attrs, fre.
  323. # [20:22] <erlehmann> <span lol="internet">rofl</span> is matched by span[lol]
  324. # [20:22] <annevk> Dashiva^2, new colors meaning Google?
  325. # [20:22] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, i am selecting based on RDFa
  326. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> That works too.
  327. # [20:22] <erlehmann> which is nice :3
  328. # [20:24] <JonathanNeal> Okay, then our previous discussion this remains true, cool.
  329. # [20:24] <Dashiva^2> annevk, yes
  330. # [20:24] <JonathanNeal> In the whatwg css file I had that.
  331. # [20:24] <annevk> Dashiva^2, congrats
  332. # [20:26] <Dashiva^2> So if anything suddenly breaks, it
  333. # [20:26] <Dashiva^2> 's not my fault
  334. # [20:26] <Dashiva^2> Although I could blame it on this new and strange keyboard
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  336. # [20:30] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-bfnongxpesrukhuj)
  337. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> Re: WYSIWYG editors using <em> instead of <i> at all times - "That made me think of adopted foreign words, too, and how completely douchey your computer would sound reading out je nais c’est quoi or something with added emphasis, all like “Ooooh, look at me, I’m a computer and I speak French.”"
  338. # [20:34] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-135-219.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  339. # [20:36] <JonathanNeal> haha
  340. # [20:37] <Dashiva^2> I would be impressed
  341. # [20:37] <JonathanNeal> I was also using something like :section and :heading in that, not sure if that will ever be valid either.
  342. # [20:40] <erlehmann> http://github.com/wordpress/
  343. # [20:40] <erlehmann> this
  344. # [20:40] <erlehmann> I WILL FORK NOW
  345. # [20:40] <erlehmann> and change all <em>s to <i>s.
  346. # [20:40] <Dashiva^2> If you liked it then you shoulda made a fork of it
  347. # [20:40] <erlehmann> THAT WILL TELL THEM.
  348. # [20:41] <erlehmann> Dashiva^2, forking is the new poking.
  349. # [20:41] * Joins: kpx (~chatzilla@149.169.144.91)
  350. # [20:42] <erlehmann> hardcore forking action in progress.
  351. # [20:42] <kpx> HI I wanted to know that is there a javascript function that can read HTML as a binary safe string.... and dont say innerHTML that is not binary safe....
  352. # [20:43] <Dashiva^2> Are you sure binary safe is the phrase you mean?
  353. # [20:43] <erlehmann> trinary safe !
  354. # [20:44] <JonathanNeal> hey erlehmann, how about innerHTML!
  355. # [20:44] <JonathanNeal> :D
  356. # [20:44] <erlehmann> i actually used that function.
  357. # [20:44] <erlehmann> once.
  358. # [20:44] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  359. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> I use it all the time, implicitly.
  360. # [20:45] <gsnedders> kpx: How is anything not binary safe? JS has no concept of binary data, only of Unicode.
  361. # [20:47] <kpx> gsnedders: Well you are right, I meant "Unicode" safe actually....
  362. # [20:47] <gsnedders> kpx: In what way?
  363. # [20:47] <gsnedders> kpx: Any string returned by DOM is nessisarily a Unicode string?
  364. # [20:47] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yeah, I could totally write that America infobox without a table. However, a table is the correct thing to use for the middle half of it.
  365. # [20:48] * Quits: othree (~othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  366. # [20:48] <kpx> gsnedders: I was trying to save pages as in a data base as innerHTML and examining some of it... Turned out there was some data missing....
  367. # [20:48] <erlehmann> Receiving objects: 6% (4871/81182), 1.19 MiB | 4 KiB/s
  368. # [20:48] <gsnedders> How did data get from innerHTML to the database?
  369. # [20:49] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Hell yeah.
  370. # [20:49] <erlehmann> this will take a while
  371. # [20:49] <kpx> gsnedders: web databases
  372. # [20:50] <kpx> gsnedders: Is that normal to actually loose some data? technically if you see it on the page and you save it it should be there....
  373. # [20:50] <kpx> I calculated a SHA1 of the data also
  374. # [20:51] <Dashiva^2> What exactly was missing?
  375. # [20:53] <kpx> Well some tags were entirely gone...Some chars were sometimes gone.... I think SQLite backend should store the Unicode data safely...
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  377. # [20:53] <kpx> Weird...
  378. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> That doesn't sound like an issue caused by unicode-related failures.
  379. # [20:53] <kpx> TabAtkins: Well i am not processing the data at all
  380. # [20:54] <kpx> as in document.getElementsByTagName('HTML')[0].innerHTML and then insert that into a webdatabase BLOB column in a table...
  381. # [20:55] <kpx> Any ways if someone had such an issue and all then would appreciate if you let me know....
  382. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> Shrug. I dunno what the problem is, I'm just saying what I think the problem *isn't*.
  383. # [20:55] <kpx> :)
  384. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> Try pushing the data into something else and seeing if the problem persists.
  385. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Try using TEXT and not BLOB?
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  393. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> When defining classes in Python, do you really have to define a class before it can be used, even if it's defined later in the file?
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  397. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, could you de-tablefy something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Protected_Areas_of_Colorado
  398. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> Also, yes, of course you do. In what language is that *not* the case?
  399. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> Same with functions.
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  404. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: You dont' need to in Lisp. The object system is designed such that it will throw warning for unimplemented things, but then slot in the proper class references when you define them later.
  405. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: That looks like it should be a table too.
  406. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> I don't get how that would work in a typical object-oriented language. You might have a constructor, for instance, so how could you process $foo = new MyClass(); without knowing the definition for MyClass()?
  407. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> Lisp is partly functional, and functional languages are weird like this.
  408. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> If you try to *use* the class before it is defined, sure, it's a problem.
  409. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> What are you trying to do?
  410. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> I have a big batch of classes in a file. I want to organize them in a particular logical order such that the more important classes are near the top, and the little helper classes are at the bottom. But I can't do that, because the little classes are used by the important classes, and thus must come before them.
  411. # [21:33] * Quits: plainhao (~plainhao@mail.xbiotica.com) (Quit: plainhao)
  412. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Maybe it deliberately requires that earlier classes not use later classes, to avoid infinite loops?
  413. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> That's just as silly. It's perfectly fine to have classes hold references to each other (other than the GC problems such causes).
  414. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Do other totally-non-functional languages permit this kind of thing?
  415. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> I have no idea. Lisp's object system *is* generally more advanced than most other languages'.
  416. # [21:36] * AryehGregor discovers that he's supposed to spend like two hours going down to Courant and back to fill out some form . . . yay.
  417. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Got to go, I guess.
  418. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> kk
  419. # [21:37] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net)
  420. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> Anyway, Lisp's object system is totally normal and not functional-polluted. Lisp is a multi-paradigm language, and is perfectly happy integrating things like OO into it without having to do backflips to fit it into a functional mold.
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  422. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> Everyone else's object system is just weak and annoying, is all.
  423. # [21:39] * TabAtkins grumps.
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  427. # [21:57] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  428. # [22:02] <gsnedders> You mean you don't love JS? :o
  429. # [22:02] <gsnedders> :P
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  432. # [22:14] <JonathanNeal> Someone tweeted about my http://www.iecss.com/whatwg.css so I'd like to append some notes to it, especially about imaginary selectors that do not yet exist. Anyone wanna help, chime in?
  433. # [22:14] <JonathanNeal> http://twitter.com/PageRankSEO/status/16710927231 is that you TabAtkins?
  434. # [22:15] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Javascript hoists the function definitions to the top of the scope so you don't have to define things in order there
  435. # [22:15] <jgraham> But in python you can do all kinds of stuff like
  436. # [22:15] <jgraham> class Foo(Bar):
  437. # [22:16] <jgraham> if baz:
  438. # [22:16] <jgraham> def __init__(self):
  439. # [22:16] <jgraham> (and so on)
  440. # [22:16] <jgraham> else:
  441. # [22:16] <jgraham> def __init__(self):
  442. # [22:16] <jgraham> (some other stuff)
  443. # [22:17] * Quits: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221) (Quit: roc)
  444. # [22:18] <jgraham> Not claiming that is really useful, but I have changed the metaclass based on whether logging is enabled by putting an if statement in the class body
  445. # [22:18] <jgraham> Dunno if this really interferes with the ability to lazily resolve symbols though
  446. # [22:19] <broquaint> There's also Joose, inspired by Moose, which was inspired by "The Art of the Meta Object Protocol" which in turn describes Lisp's CLOS :)
  447. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: No, not me. Dunno where that came from. ^_^
  448. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> jgraham: In Lisp all this talk of "methods" is silly. You just have functions specialized on certain arguments. You can certainly define different versions of a function in an if.
  449. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> (That said, Lisp certainly has "methods". It reuses that name for functions specialized on their arguments. ^_^)
  450. # [22:31] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal, what is "img:complete" ?
  451. # [22:31] <erlehmann> also "video:metadata" ?
  452. # [22:34] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann, well complete is a state of img
  453. # [22:34] <erlehmann> loaded ?
  454. # [22:34] <JonathanNeal> Yes, but someone told me it would be complete.
  455. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> "would be" = "has been proposed to be at least once on the CSS list".
  456. # [22:39] * Quits: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  457. # [22:40] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you don't have to define classes in perl before you use them
  458. # [22:40] <Hixie> AryehGregor: it's all late-dispatch
  459. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> So Python's the stupid stepchild of dynamic languages here.
  460. # [22:41] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you can even make a method that takes as an argument the name of the method that was called and have it dynamically make up the method as it goes
  461. # [22:41] <Hixie> and even in typed languages you don't have to give the full definition -- e.g. in objectpascal so long as you declare that the identifier will be defined as a class later, you can use it as a class before it's defined
  462. # [22:42] <Hixie> (the compiler does two passes, one to get the types and then one to get the code, or something)
  463. # [22:43] * Joins: LoneStar99 (~dmontalvo@adsl-76-211-223-50.dsl.hrlntx.sbcglobal.net)
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  465. # [22:45] <LoneStar99> what is the simplest way to draw a line from one mouse point to anohter?
  466. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> Use <canvas>?
  467. # [22:46] <LoneStar99> oh yeah meant using canvas...
  468. # [22:47] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, thank you for the correction.
  469. # [22:47] <JonathanNeal> These are the types of things I want to add in a notes section.
  470. # [22:47] <JonathanNeal> Now that people are distributing it.
  471. # [22:49] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: have the following
  472. # [22:50] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: the code seems to work, but on mouse up, and try to draw another line, the previous one is deleted
  473. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Yes, every time you draw to <canvas>, it's completely fresh. If you want to keep the old lines around, you have to remember them and redrew them in the next draw step.
  474. # [22:51] <jgraham> TabAtkins: You can bind any function to a class in python. Methods are just bound functions
  475. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Or, um...
  476. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> That's wrong. But anyway! I suspect that's your issue.
  477. # [22:52] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: here is the complete code
  478. # [22:52] * Parts: mitnavn (~mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn)
  479. # [22:52] <LoneStar99> http://pastebin.com/jqxZyqMV
  480. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Hmm, I wonder if the problem is with Django, actually.
  481. # [22:52] <jgraham> TabAtkins: What problem?
  482. # [22:52] <jgraham> In general it is a requirement that you declare things before you use them
  483. # [22:53] <jgraham> in python
  484. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> Whereby it reports an error because one of my models uses another model declared later in the file.
  485. # [22:53] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: what is the best way to remember all the lines drawn?
  486. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> And so I have to order the classes in the file in a suboptimal way.
  487. # [22:53] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Possibly, yes
  488. # [22:54] <jgraham> TabAtkins: You could split it into several smaller files, maybe
  489. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> LoneStar99: The problem is that clearRect() call you have. It... clears the canvas every time you move the mouse.
  490. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Could, but that's even more trouble.
  491. # [22:55] * Quits: justicefries (~gerred@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  492. # [22:57] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: yeah, with out "clearRect()" the line draws like the following: http://admin.work.lonestarbeer.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/funky.png
  493. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> I can't connect to your computer there.
  494. # [23:02] * Joins: justicefries (~gerred@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
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  498. # [23:07] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: is it still not working the link above?
  499. # [23:08] <erlehmann> i should be considered a hero http://github.com/erlehmann/wordpress/commit/f1d3dec90eb2ec18e973aa1e374ce78944a2fd68
  500. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> LoneStar99: Yeah. It keeps saying your computer is offline.
  501. # [23:08] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  502. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> LoneStar99: Are you drawing it in the mouseMove so that the user can see the line before clicking the second time?
  503. # [23:10] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: ok try this link http://freagair.com/RON/funky.png
  504. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's what I thought.
  505. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> Everything is acting normally, then. You're just doing it wrong. ^_^
  506. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> So, you're drawing it in the mouseMove so that people can see the line before releasing their mouse and committing to a second point.
  507. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> This means that, yes, you do indeed need to clear the canvas between draws and redraw the line, since you don't want the previous "preview" lines to persist.
  508. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> But that means that, obviously, you're clearing the canvas, and thus have to redraw *everything* you want to persist.
  509. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> So save the points of previous lines in an array or something and redraw them at every drawing step.
  510. # [23:13] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-lfvvbputyycrxhzw) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  511. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> This is the downside of immediate-mode graphics like <canvas>. They have *no memory* of what's inside of them. They're just a bag of dumb pixels.
  512. # [23:14] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: ok, makes sense....
  513. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> If you want to manipulate lines by themselves without worrying about previous lines you've drawn, you want a retained-mode graphics. That is, SVG.
  514. # [23:14] <erlehmann> they kicked me out of #wordpress for this.
  515. # [23:14] <erlehmann> wtf
  516. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> In SVG, you'd just create a <line> or whatever element on mousedown and adjust its attributes on mouseMove. Then when they mousedown again, you're creating a new element, which doesn't interact with the old one.
  517. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: Hahaha.
  518. # [23:15] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.176.147) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  519. # [23:15] <aho> you can of course also render your stuff onto another off-screen canvas, update that one, then draw it onto the whole thing onto the visible one
  520. # [23:15] <aho> (dirty rectangles etc)
  521. # [23:15] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, thats not funny.
  522. # [23:15] <erlehmann> ;_;
  523. # [23:15] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: so the only way is to save previous points, and redraw them right?
  524. # [23:16] <erlehmann> i'll go join the habari cabal right after gsoc. hello gsnedders.
  525. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> True that, aho. To clarify, you can use the visible canvas as "scratch", copying the hidden canvas at every redraw (rather than just clearing the canvas). Then, when the user commits to a particular line, draw that final line to the hidden canvas.
  526. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> That way the hidden canvas is only manipulated in an additive way, and never needs to be cleared, while the visible scratch canvas can be manipulated as much as you want.
  527. # [23:17] <aho> http://kaioa.com/k/ct/image_combine/index.html <- that renderToCanvas function creates such an off-screen canvas for example
  528. # [23:17] <erlehmann> wait i do not even know, where to apply.
  529. # [23:18] <erlehmann> then i'll probably have to hack my own blog system, using tinyldap, C and libowfat.
  530. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: I recommend the latter. Only build it on top of Markdown, like I'll do someday when I'm not lazy.
  531. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> <3 Markdown.
  532. # [23:19] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins and aho -> thanks
  533. # [23:19] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, i'd probably use python anyway.
  534. # [23:19] * Quits: franksalim (~frank@adsl-75-61-93-123.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  535. # [23:21] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: this is the orginal code sample http://devfiles.myopera.com/articles/649/example5.html
  536. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> That seems to work fine now.
  537. # [23:22] <LoneStar99> it works, fine on the browser, but not in "mobile app"
  538. # [23:23] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  539. # [23:24] <paul_irish> You think a data uri cache.manifest file would work?
  540. # [23:25] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  541. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: Do cache manifests have any sort of origin restrictions?
  542. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> (Remember that data uris are automatically unique-origin.)
  543. # [23:25] <paul_irish> yup
  544. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Then, presumably, no, it wouldn't.
  545. # [23:26] <paul_irish> Hmmm true.. though data uri fonts are allowed in FF where cross origin fonts are not.
  546. # [23:26] * TabAtkins thinks we need more exceptions for places where data uris are same-origin as the embedding page.
  547. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: Probably a bug. ^_^
  548. # [23:26] <paul_irish> Def.
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  554. # [23:40] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: how would you recommend making the dynamic array to keep previous "x, y" values?
  555. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> LoneStar99: By... making an array? Something on a long-lived object storing [x,y] pairs? Just push the final [x,y] onto the array on every mouseUp.
  556. # [23:42] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: ok thanks
  557. # [23:46] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
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  561. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, Hixie: looks like PHP also doesn't mind "$x = new A(); class A {...}".
  562. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> It runs the constructor and everything.
  563. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> Oh well, Python is picky.
  564. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Excellent.
  565. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> It seems PHP just reads the whole file before it actually executes anything.
  566. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> This delays three seconds, prints "1\n2\n", then delays another three seconds: (echo '<?php echo "1\n";'; sleep 3; echo 'echo "2\n"; sleep(3);') | php
  567. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> (second delay to ensure that it's not just buffering output)
  568. # [23:59] * Philip` can't think of any serious languages that don't read the whole file before actually executing anything
  569. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> I assume "serious languages" is intended to exclude shells. :)
  570. # Session Close: Tue Jun 22 00:00:00 2010

The end :)