/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 03 00:00:01 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <othermaciej> If anyone really had a conscious goal of "delay progress on HTML5", then participating in the HTML WG on that basis would arguably be bad faith
  4. # [00:00] <jgraham> (fwiw I don't see how you could say "ecision about which objections are strong [...] should be consensus based" and not realise that this would have the effect of slowing things down)
  5. # [00:01] <jgraham> (so it is at least true that he must believe that slower progress is acceptable)
  6. # [00:01] <jgraham> (although he could conceviably believe that it would lead to faster progress at a later time for some reason I don't see)
  7. # [00:01] <mbrubeck> He might believe both that it would slow the process and that the slower process would lead to a better ultimate outcome. That wouldn't be bad faith.
  8. # [00:01] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  9. # [00:02] <mbrubeck> Change is not always the same as "progress" - faster change does not magically make things better
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  11. # [00:02] <othermaciej> on the other hand, seeking to improve things along dimensions that others do not care much about is good faith behavior
  12. # [00:02] <jgraham> Yes, I don't claim that he is necessarily acting in bad faith
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  14. # [00:02] <jgraham> I really have no idea what his motivations are
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  17. # [00:03] <jgraham> (so it makes little sense to speculate about good faith/bad faith)
  18. # [00:03] <othermaciej> even if it can be hard to distinguish at times from deliberate delay
  19. # [00:04] <jgraham> Anyway, I seem to have accidentially created a tangent from the more relevent point that the Process is driving good people away from the WG
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  22. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> And thus it needs to be destroyed.
  23. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> The Process, the WG, or the W3C? :)
  24. # [00:10] <othermaciej> if the process does drive good people away then we may have to revise it
  25. # [00:10] <othermaciej> I don't know what concerns have been raised of late but I'll certainly look into them when back stateside
  26. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> DESTROY THEM ALL
  27. # [00:11] * Joins: crankharder (~crankhard@ip68-100-2-225.dc.dc.cox.net)
  28. # [00:12] <crankharder> hey all, i've been playing around with cache manifests today and am kinda unsure about somethin
  29. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> The problem with the HTMLWG is that, unlike the WHATWG, it operates under the conceit that everyone's voice needs to be heard and it's not acceptable to just dismiss people's objections out of hand. This inevitably leads to people raising all sorts of issues that no one else cares much about, because others are forced to deal with them.
  30. # [00:13] <AryehGregor> It doesn't seem like the CSSWG operates this way, so I don't see why the HTMLWG should have to.
  31. # [00:13] <AryehGregor> As far as I can tell, in the CSSWG, random people from the Internet have no right to raise objections that anyone has to pay attention to.
  32. # [00:13] <othermaciej> it's harder to become a CSS WG member
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  34. # [00:13] <crankharder> is there a way to specify a wildcard URL for the CACHE directive?
  35. # [00:14] <othermaciej> however, the CSS WG does have to at least respond to all Last Call comments in some meaningful way, and those could come from random people from the internet
  36. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's the problem. Everyone is theoretically equal in the HTMLWG, more or less, and that inevitably requires mounds of procedure and bickering as everyone has to have their say.
  37. # [00:14] <mbrubeck> crankharder: What CACHE directive?
  38. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> They could be responded to by one group member in a few sentences. You don't need to write lengthy counterproposals with several required sections and have a survey and so on.
  39. # [00:15] <crankharder> mbrubeck: in a cache manifest file
  40. # [00:15] <Hixie> crankharder: you mean matching everything?
  41. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Harder to become a member, but not to talk on the list.
  42. # [00:15] <mbrubeck> crankharder: No, no wildcard.
  43. # [00:15] <crankharder> the NETWORK directive allows a wildcard, but not the CACHE
  44. # [00:15] <crankharder> NETWORK urls must only start with what is defined, afaik the CACHE ones must match up perfectly
  45. # [00:15] <Hixie> crankharder: the URLs in the CACHE section are fetched one by one by the browser, so i don't see how the CACHE could have a wildcard
  46. # [00:16] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: true, but random people talking on the list do not have to be taken as seriously as CSS WG members, since they do not have a direct say in what WG resolutions pass
  47. # [00:16] <Hixie> crankharder: the browser can't just make up the URLs :-)
  48. # [00:16] <crankharder> hrm
  49. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Indeed. And that's somewhat more useful. I was a useful and productive contributor to the CSSWG long before I become a member.
  50. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> But had I turned out crazy, shrug. I could just have been killfiled and that's that.
  51. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> The WHATWG and CSSWG both rely on a small group of qualified people making all decisions, and merely require them to address public comments (however perfunctorily) according to no particular procedure.
  52. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> (one person, in the WHATWG's case)
  53. # [00:18] <jgraham> I'm not sure the CSS WG is the best example to follow
  54. # [00:18] <othermaciej> well, one could certainly look at whether the CSS WG is on the whole a more effective organization than the HTML WG
  55. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Hmm, for some reason my python script is now outputting things in a bad encoding. It didn't do that a second ago, though I had basically equivalent characters.
  56. # [00:18] <crankharder> so the issue i'm having boils down to my framework (rails) appending timestamps to css/js/image files -- these timestamps are used for far-future expiration caching by the web server - it's therefore impossible to add the correct css/js/image filename to the manifest since the full name is dynamically generated
  57. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> It's the only W3C WG I've followed other than the HTMLWG.
  58. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> That's the only reason I use it for examples.
  59. # [00:18] <jgraham> It's not like it is known for being hyper efficient
  60. # [00:18] <othermaciej> I think the general consensus would be that it's not
  61. # [00:19] <mbrubeck> crankharder: Can you generate the manifest dynamically with the same timestamps?
  62. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> Perhaps it's also too big.
  63. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> It's hard to argue with the WHATWG's efficiency, and that seems to stem from the fact that only one person is responsible for making all decisions.
  64. # [00:19] <crankharder> mbrubeck: probably, but I was hoping for the wildcard solution ;)
  65. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Of course, one must separate the problem of editors letting specs languish, and process making specs languish. The CSSWG suffers from the former, but the latter is what we're complaining about here.
  66. # [00:20] <jgraham> It's not clear that the CSSWG problems are due to its size
  67. # [00:20] <mbrubeck> crankharder: In fact, you should be able to generate the manifest as a static file at deployment time with appropriate timestamps - that's basically what I did for an offline app project.
  68. # [00:20] <jgraham> Although they could be I guess
  69. # [00:20] <othermaciej> in the W3C, in theory the buck stops at the Director, however he does not make any of the front-line decisions
  70. # [00:21] <othermaciej> I don't think there is evidence that HTML5 is languishing; I believe the complaints cited were about bad decision process and/or incensistent basis for decisions and/or resulting inconsistency in the spec
  71. # [00:21] <othermaciej> not about the spec failing to progress
  72. # [00:21] <jgraham> othermaciej: From a real world point of view it is doing fine
  73. # [00:22] <jgraham> othermaciej: From a W3C process POV it is nearing the end of Q2 2010 and we don't seem to be much closer to LC
  74. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Bad choice of words on my part. Indeed, the problem is not anything languishing.
  75. # [00:22] <jgraham> Which was supposed to happen in Nov 1009
  76. # [00:22] <jgraham> *2009
  77. # [00:22] <mbrubeck> It's 1001 years late!
  78. # [00:22] <jgraham> (we're not quite that late...)
  79. # [00:22] <othermaciej> jgraham: I do wish we were further along than we are, but I also believe we are in the endgame of moving towards LC
  80. # [00:23] <Hixie> html5 is doing fine so far, the concern as i see it is that a decisions process is being applied to the spec that has only avoided causing massive damage so far by luck
  81. # [00:23] <Hixie> and by my interpreting the decisions in the least damaging way each time
  82. # [00:24] <othermaciej> I expect at least Microdata will get to LC pretty soon (I plan to make it a priority to work on that when I get back from vacation)
  83. # [00:24] <mbrubeck> Hixie: Or the process is inconsistent because it involves judgment and takes inherently unpredictable human factors into account, and can't be replaced by an algorithm as you seem to wish.
  84. # [00:24] <jgraham> othermaciej: The process that is taking us there seems to be causing attrition of people willing to contribute
  85. # [00:24] <othermaciej> and once we get one draft to LC I expect the path will be smoother for subsequent ones
  86. # [00:24] <Hixie> mbrubeck: judgement is fine, so long as it is consistently applied
  87. # [00:24] <Hixie> mbrubeck: (judgement is all that's ever been used)
  88. # [00:25] <othermaciej> jgraham: that's certainly something I would be concerned about if that is in fact the case
  89. # [00:26] <mbrubeck> Hixie: I mean, above someone suggested that microdata was split out because it has a separate spec, and you said that to be "consistent" with that "rule" you would also have to split out <a> and @rel.
  90. # [00:27] <mbrubeck> but it seems obvious that instead of a rule ("do not compete with any other specs, ever") there has to be a judgment call (which other specs are likely to matter / compete / be used?).
  91. # [00:27] <Hixie> mbrubeck: so RDFa is not likely to matter / compete / be used?
  92. # [00:27] <mbrubeck> NO
  93. # [00:27] <Hixie> rel="" and itemprop="" both compete with RDFa
  94. # [00:27] <Hixie> heck, RDFa even _uses_ rel=""
  95. # [00:28] <mbrubeck> You're still trying to turn my example of *factors to be considered* into some sort of binary rule that will always produce the same outcome.
  96. # [00:28] <Hixie> (in an incompatible manner, but that's another story)
  97. # [00:28] <Hixie> yes
  98. # [00:28] <Hixie> well not necessarily binary
  99. # [00:28] <Hixie> i'm trying to apply a rule that can predict wg decision outcomes
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  101. # [00:28] <mbrubeck> And I think that's the wrong problem to try to solve.
  102. # [00:28] <Hixie> so that i can just make the spec what the wg wants without us having to waste months going through this insanely heavy-weight process for each paragraph
  103. # [00:29] <mbrubeck> heh.
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  105. # [00:29] <Hixie> (and yes, we're literally doing it at the paragraph level at the moment)
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  107. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Yay, encoding issue was an encoding issue! (That is, there was no problem, the file just thought it was the wrong encoding and so was displaying incorrectly.)
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  115. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: in the W3C copy of the spec, can you please change the "This specification is available in the following formats: single page HTML, multipage HTML." to "...available in the following formats: single page HTML, multipage HTML, Author Edition."
  116. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> ...with the Author Edition text being a link to "author/" subdir
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  162. # [03:13] <Hixie> MikeSmith: done
  163. # [03:14] <MikeSmith> thanks
  164. # [03:16] <MikeSmith> I'll get the author-edition published in TR space along with the multipage
  165. # [03:16] <MikeSmith> for next round of WDs
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  226. # [06:06] <karlcow> looking at "Proposing New Features" at the bottom of this page http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTML-WG/
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  232. # [06:27] <MikeSmithX> "We value your opinion, really we do, but we're going to put a stiff tax on its expression, so that we won't have to hear it very often."
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  236. # [06:31] <MikeSmith> +1
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  258. # [08:09] <hsivonen> gsnedders: OK. I was hoping to get advice on which seats I should get...
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  264. # [08:23] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: It's a bit of a myth that Hixie decides everything alone. Here's an example of influencing the decision process: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090212#l-27
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  266. # [08:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: maybe the Author Edition should be called something like an Edition for Web Authors
  267. # [08:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: otherwise it looks like the Editor's Cut
  268. # [08:29] <hsivonen> I still have trouble deciding if I should get the Avenue Q tickets from the Stalls or the Royal Circle (the first balcony level)...
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  270. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: good point
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  277. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: changed now to "Edition for Web Authors"
  278. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
  279. # [08:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
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  281. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, did you see my question yesterday about how to make the v.nu HTML5 parser usable by other Java apps from the command line?
  282. # [08:53] * MikeSmith goes to get pointer to logs
  283. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100602#l-181
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  314. # [10:02] <hsivonen> http://html4all.org/mailman/archives/list_html4all.org/2010-June/001066.html
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  316. # [10:09] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: surely the reason is that Hixie wrote the text instead of the Experts
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  320. # [10:12] <Dashiva> zcorpan_: A mutation of NIH?
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  322. # [10:15] <jgraham> hsivonen: You are going to London?
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  326. # [10:16] <annevk> bleh
  327. # [10:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes. In July.
  328. # [10:17] <jgraham> hsivonen: Nice. Holiday?
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  330. # [10:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah, a short one, since I'd have a layover at LHR anyway
  331. # [10:18] <annevk> http://blog.chromium.org/2010/06/websocket-protocol-updated.html
  332. # [10:19] <hsivonen> I booked tickets for Avenue Q. gsnedders is effective at this social media marketing thing.
  333. # [10:19] <jgraham> What you mean he convinced you to go without ever actually having gone himself or having any idea of product quality?
  334. # [10:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: right. very effective indeed.
  335. # [10:21] <annevk> haha
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  337. # [10:22] <hsivonen> great to see that Chromium is tracking the spec changes for Web Socket
  338. # [10:27] <hsivonen> working with hg on a hard disk feels very slow after getting used to an SSD
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  341. # [10:34] <annevk> http://twitter.com/mikeplate/statuses/15247455331
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  343. # [10:34] <annevk> '"The most unreadable specification I've read in 20 years of standardization" Daniel Glazman on WhatWG #html5 doc spec #swdc'
  344. # [10:35] * hsivonen wonders if the other specs that Daniel has read have been as precise
  345. # [10:35] * Dashiva wonders if he has read any other specs at all
  346. # [10:36] * jgraham wonders if the other specs will lead to such interoperable behaviour in such a complex area
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  348. # [10:38] * annevk wonders how carefully he read CSS 2.1 :-P
  349. # [10:39] <workmad3> annevk: surely you're not suggesting that the CSS 2.1 spec was unreadable! :)
  350. # [10:39] <annevk> I'm suggesting it is pretty hard to read
  351. # [10:40] <annevk> And incomplete unfortunately on certain important topics...
  352. # [10:40] <Dashiva> I can never remember where to find half the layout properties
  353. # [10:41] <jgraham> I think my serious response would be http://dbaron.org/log/20100531-specs
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  368. # [11:22] <annevk> someone emailed me again the other day about href on any element... gave an explanation plus pointer to the FAQ entry
  369. # [11:26] <aho> easy way: you should have just pointed out that it's now fine to put whatever you want into a-elements :>
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  371. # [11:30] <annevk> he was actually aware of that
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  375. # [11:33] <mikekelly> I'm interested in understand why it isn't possible for javascript to kick off a page transition and have granular control over the request in the same as you do with XHR - anyone know?
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  378. # [11:35] <zcorpan_> mikekelly: because there's only one person in the world who wants to do that
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  382. # [11:43] <gsnedders> hsivonen: And Hixie was good at convincing me I should go (though mainly F2F, so no IRC logs of this)
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  384. # [11:46] <zcorpan_> jgraham: who's marlin? did you mean malin?
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  386. # [11:47] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Probably
  387. # [11:47] <Dashiva> He's implying she's fishy
  388. # [11:48] <jgraham> I consider it a good day if I manage to spell my own name right
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  397. # [11:59] <annevk> jgraham, low standards much?
  398. # [12:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: Your spelling it better than mine. :P
  399. # [12:00] <annevk> though I guess it's a good thing it doesn't depend on externalities, like someone else spelling your name right for a change...
  400. # [12:00] <gsnedders> (There again, that is a really low standard.)
  401. # [12:00] <jgraham> annevk: I like to use the word "realistic"
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  418. # [13:38] <hsivonen> Does anyone happen to have an URL for a style sheet that's guarenteed to load artificially slowly?
  419. # [13:38] <Rik`> hsivonen: steve souders should have that with cuzillion
  420. # [13:41] <jgraham> hsivonen: I guess OPera internal urls aren't that useful to you ;)
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  422. # [13:41] <Rik`> hsivonen: http://stevesouders.com/cuzillion/
  423. # [13:42] <jgraham> Rik`: Neat
  424. # [13:44] <hsivonen> Rik`: thanks
  425. # [13:44] <Rik`> yeah, pretty useful
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  430. # [14:17] <hsivonen> what's a cross-browser (incl. IE) way to ask an element for its color?
  431. # [14:17] <Dashiva> None that I know of, you have to combine getComputedStyle and currentStyle
  432. # [14:18] <Rik`> and don't forget the please argument
  433. # [14:19] <Dashiva> brb, implementing intercal support in webkit
  434. # [14:20] <hsivonen> ok. maybe I'll try to see if Opera and WebKit support offsetHeight
  435. # [14:20] <Dashiva> You can't just detect getComputedStyle and fallback to currentStyle?
  436. # [14:21] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I just want to check if a test style sheet is applied at a given point
  437. # [14:21] <hsivonen> I don't need to check arbitrary styles.
  438. # [14:38] <zcorpan_> offsetHeight should work
  439. # [14:42] <hsivonen> as I expected, none of the top 4 engines behaves like the spec says when a document.written internal script occurs right after an external style sheet in the same document.write
  440. # [14:43] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/sheet-blocking-script.html
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  442. # [14:43] <hsivonen> time to file a spec bug
  443. # [14:44] <hsivonen> it took a lot of trying to come up with a test that explained the behavior of all 4
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  448. # [15:02] <Dashiva> And there are _still_ people who object to the design principles, wonderful
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  450. # [15:10] <hsivonen> whew. http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9843 filed.
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  461. # [15:31] <hsivonen> is there a service that lets me search Hixie's commit messages?
  462. # [15:31] <hsivonen> or browse blame for the spec?
  463. # [15:32] <Dashiva> If there isn't, you could search the archives for commit-watchers
  464. # [15:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: I assume you don't count the avaliability of svn for checkout as "a service"
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  466. # [15:41] <hsivonen> jgraham: isn't it slow? and no Web UI?
  467. # [15:42] * hsivonen needs to find the SVG URL
  468. # [15:42] * hsivonen guesses correctly
  469. # [15:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yes
  470. # [15:46] <hsivonen> OK, now I need to find the list discussion that motivated http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=13&to=14
  471. # [15:55] <hsivonen> I was unable to find a public discussion leading to that change.
  472. # [15:56] <gsnedders> r14!? Man, that's old sk00l.
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  498. # [17:38] <crankharder> this manifest should hit /offline/update_all_events regardless of cache/network status right?
  499. # [17:38] <crankharder> http://pastie.org/990656
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  526. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> Hmm. <input required> in Chrome dev channel seemingly doesn't submit the form, but gives no error.
  527. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> It just focuses the password field.
  528. # [18:43] <AryehGregor> I mean, the required field.
  529. # [18:43] <remysharp> AryehGregor: it's flagged as invalid on the dom node - you have to go all JS on the element
  530. # [18:43] <AryehGregor> That seems like a really bad feature to deploy. If you don't have UI, you shouldn't enforce the requirements either.
  531. # [18:44] <remysharp> AryehGregor: completely agree
  532. # [18:44] <AryehGregor> The form validation API is not meant to be JS-only. It's meant to work even if the author provides no JS.
  533. # [18:45] <AryehGregor> Are there minimal UI requirements in the spec here?
  534. # [18:45] * AryehGregor is looking
  535. # [18:45] <gsnedders> No
  536. # [18:45] * gsnedders would hope there aren't any UI requirements
  537. # [18:45] <AryehGregor> Not even "you have to tell the user and not just silently fail"?
  538. # [18:45] <AryehGregor> That seems like a pretty reasonable UI requirement to me.
  539. # [18:45] <gsnedders> What if it's Googlebot?
  540. # [18:46] <AryehGregor> I'm talking about browsers here. Googlebot is not a browser.
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  542. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> A Googlebot does not fall into the "Web browsers and other interactive user agents" category.
  543. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> It's "Data mining tools", I suppose.
  544. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> So it only has to follow the semantic requirements, not UI requirements.
  545. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#constraint-validation "Report the problems with the constraints of at least one of the elements given in unhandled invalid controls to the user."
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  547. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> It explicitly suggests focusing the element, but that's just not enough. There needs to be some text somehow.
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  549. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34945
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  564. # [19:44] <zcorpan_> hmm, so <link rel=next> is being spread on twitter as being 'html5 prefetch'
  565. # [19:45] <zcorpan_> http://keyboardy.com/programming/html5-link-prefetching/
  566. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> Didn't it way predate -- oh, never mind, buzzword.
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  571. # [19:53] * zcorpan_ comments
  572. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> Haha, I love <canvas>+<video> *so* much - http://betaweb.csug.rochester.edu/~jparish/public/canvas/video.html
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  575. # [19:57] <miketaylr> that's awesome
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  577. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> I think it would be even more awesome if it didn't draw into the canvas, but just used it for calculation, and instead did the display in real text.
  578. # [19:58] <miketaylr> dhtml 4 life
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  583. # [20:03] <miketaylr> somewhat unrelated, but did you see kangax's svg -> canvas parser thingy? http://yura.thinkweb2.com/canvas_demo/
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  585. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> No, I had not previously seen that!
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  587. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> Random note - anyone know who the dude in that image is?
  588. # [20:09] <miketaylr> the tongue sticking out guy?
  589. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  590. # [20:09] <miketaylr> ha. no clue. i can ping kangax on IM and ask though
  591. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> kk. I'm just wondering because it looks sorta like jimmy urine.
  592. # [20:12] <miketaylr> quoth the kangax, "just some svg i found on the web"
  593. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> Kk.
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  609. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> Awesome, Ubuntu versions are now tracking latest Firefox instead of freezing on a stable branch forever.
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  613. # [20:31] <gratz|home> hm
  614. # [20:31] <gratz|home> AryehGregor, link to info?
  615. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> gratz|home, http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/2051
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  617. # [20:34] <gratz|home> cool
  618. # [20:34] <gratz|home> was a bit surprised since they freeze everything for standardisation / support
  619. # [20:34] <gratz|home> good to see though :D
  620. # [20:36] <gratz|home> brb
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  623. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: You around? Question about Hebrew numbering.
  624. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I'm here.
  625. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> Do you know how accurate the current css3-lists description of hebrew numbering is? It looks like it's pretty easy to describe with a simple greedy additive algorithm.
  626. # [20:52] <AryehGregor> I commented about that some time ago, didn't I?
  627. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but I can't follow that discussion well enough to be sure.
  628. # [20:52] <AryehGregor> The conclusion was that it should just stop at 999,999.
  629. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> Okay, that's fine.
  630. # [20:52] <AryehGregor> If you do that, then it's very simple.
  631. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> And the appears if and only if the number is 1k or greater?
  632. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> the geresh
  633. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Well, there are still a couple weird things, actually.
  634. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> Well, plus the 15/16 exceptions.
  635. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> I'd ditch all the places where it uses a Hebrew word, like 0, 1000, 2000, etc.
  636. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> The current algo doesn't use a word anywhere.
  637. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Okay, what URL are you looking at?
  638. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> I'm looking at a WD, I think.
  639. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/#algorithmic
  640. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> It's just "choose a value from this list for the 100k digit, 10k digit, 1k digit, add a geresh if necessary, 100 digit, 10 digit, 1 digit".
  641. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> This looks fine to me, yes.
  642. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> Kk, cool.
  643. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> I don't know how standard it is for stuff above 1000. I've seen that convention used, but people also sometimes just continue on without a geresh.
  644. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> E.g., תתר for 1000.
  645. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> I'm developing a syntax to allow authors to specify list-styles themselves. All the non-algorithmics are trivial, and I'm trying to solve as many algorithmics as I can do simply.
  646. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> That gets unwieldy above about 1200, though.
  647. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Most of them fall into either "cjk" or "additive" camps.
  648. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> The Hebrew one is quite simple. The only oddity is the 15/16 thing, I think.
  649. # [20:56] * Joins: miketayl (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
  650. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but that's easy enough to do with a greedy additive algorithm. Just specify 19/18/17/16/15 as possible tokens.
  651. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> Then it'll take those in preference to building 15/16 the "normal" way with a 10 and a 5/6.
  652. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Ah, I see.
  653. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that should work fine.
  654. # [20:57] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  655. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> Good to know.
  656. # [20:58] * miketayl is now known as miketaylr
  657. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> Stupid ethiopic and tamil numbering systems being all complicated.
  658. # [21:00] <zcorpan_> does css support roman numbers?
  659. # [21:00] <TabAtkins> I can handle tamil with an addition to my additive system, but ethiopic is impossible without creating something that might as well be general purpose.
  660. # [21:00] <TabAtkins> zcorpan_: CSS3 Lists describes it (under the algorithmic types).
  661. # [21:01] <TabAtkins> My method of defining list-styles also supports it.
  662. # [21:01] <zcorpan_> nice
  663. # [21:02] <TabAtkins> I currently have an example UA stylesheet that defines every non-glyph and non-algorithmic list type. I'll be adding the algorithmics that I can handle soon.
  664. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> I wonder where I could find someone who knows the tamil numbering system?
  665. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> I want to confirm something before I give up on it.
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  667. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> Random fun fact - in my syntax, it's pretty easy to describe a "one, two, three" list-style.
  668. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> You should support Roman numerals the way the romans actually used them most of the time, with IIII instead of IV and so on. Then it's really trivial.
  669. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> (fun fact: watches with Roman numerals typically have IIII instead of IV, but IX instead of VIIII)
  670. # [21:05] <TabAtkins> Indeed, both of those systems are trivial.
  671. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> The subtractive roman numerals just require a handful more entries in the token list.
  672. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> (So that it'll take "XC" for 90 if it can, frex.)
  673. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> The only thing I can't do in my system is support overbars, but honestly who cares.
  674. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> I'm fine with the range just being 1-39999.
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  677. # [21:07] * zcorpan_ didn't know about overbars in roman numbers
  678. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> There's no Roman-numeral-with-overbar Unicode character?
  679. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> characters.
  680. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> I dunno. Maybe?
  681. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> I don't see it.
  682. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> There are Roman numerals around U+2160 ff., but none with overbars.
  683. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> At least not in my font.
  684. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> Yeah, though apparently unicode recommends against using them. Apparently they're mainly for cjk usage.
  685. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> They recommend just using latin letters normally.
  686. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> Right, I remember that.
  687. # [21:17] <TabAtkins> Hmm, does it make sense to include the 5k and 10k characters? They're marked as "archaic" roman numerals in the unicode listing.
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  689. # [21:22] <Philip`> I thought most Roman numerals were pretty archaic
  690. # [21:23] <TabAtkins> They prefer the term "classical".
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  693. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Only Roman letters are usually used for Roman numerals.
  694. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Up to M for 1000.
  695. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Today, I mean.
  696. # [21:46] <zcorpan_> chrome 6.0.422.0 crashes on my websocket testsuite
  697. # [21:47] <zcorpan_> hmm, one test not only killed the tab but killed all of chrome
  698. # [21:49] <zcorpan_> now it seems to be any test - maybe chrome got fed up and didn't like websockets anymore
  699. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> You know Chrome changed the WebSocket implementation incompatibly in 6.0, right?
  700. # [21:49] * AryehGregor assumes so, but is just checking
  701. # [21:50] <zcorpan_> yes, that's why my tests work at all
  702. # [21:50] <zcorpan_> i should probably look into making my tests public
  703. # [21:52] <zcorpan_> seems it crashes if the server sends a binary frame with length 2^32
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  706. # [22:13] <zcorpan_> ok out of 158 tests, chrome passes 98 and crashes on 2, and sometimes seemingly crashes hard on any test
  707. # [22:13] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: On OS X?
  708. # [22:13] <zcorpan_> yes
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  711. # [22:22] <zcorpan_> seems chrome happily opens the connection without checking the upgrade and connection fields
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  743. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> Argh, damn you hebrew. I'm just going to skip providing the hebrew list-type in actual characters and only do it with escapes, because bidi mixing is super-frustrating. >_<
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  747. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> It's super-frustrating even if you can actually read it.
  748. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> Especially when it keeps switching direction as you type.
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  750. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> For real. I was about to start cussing when it was swapping the direction of backspace and delete based on which direction I approached the comma from.
  751. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> Yep.
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  755. # Session Close: Fri Jun 04 00:00:00 2010

The end :)