/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-04 / end

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  44. # [01:51] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  45. # [01:51] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  65. # [02:35] <Hixie> can someone on windows do me a favour?
  66. # [02:35] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/582
  67. # [02:36] <Hixie> if you change your highlight colour, does IE update the rendering?
  68. # [02:36] <wirepair> ie version matter?
  69. # [02:36] <Hixie> probably not, but the later the better
  70. # [02:36] <wirepair> it 'modified the page to prevent cross site scripting' ;>
  71. # [02:36] <Hixie> (not sure how you change the highlight colour on windows)
  72. # [02:36] <Hixie> good times
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  74. # [02:36] <Hixie> go to http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
  75. # [02:37] <Hixie> and click "download"
  76. # [02:37] <wirepair> yes
  77. # [02:37] <wirepair> it updates automatically
  78. # [02:37] <Hixie> nice
  79. # [02:37] <Hixie> thanks
  80. # [02:37] <wirepair> np
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  82. # [02:38] <Hixie> no need to reload or anything right?
  83. # [02:38] <peol> wouldn't be very automatic then, would it? :)
  84. # [02:38] <wirepair> nope
  85. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I knew it!
  86. # [02:38] <Hixie> well chrome changes "automatically" when you next cause it to do a restyle (it also changes it to blue, regardless of what you picked, which is a crazy bug)
  87. # [02:38] <wirepair> changes as you type
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  89. # [02:39] <Hixie> wirepair: wait, i mean change the highlight colour in the OS settings
  90. # [02:39] <wirepair> Ohhh
  91. # [02:39] <Hixie> wirepair: not change the display when you type in the form :-)
  92. # [02:39] <wirepair> sorry,
  93. # [02:39] <Hixie> TabAtkins: :-P
  94. # [02:40] <Hixie> wirepair: i think it's in display appearance settings or something
  95. # [02:40] <Hixie> wirepair: not sure exactly how to change the highlight colour
  96. # [02:40] <wirepair> yeah... me either
  97. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> I was going to poke you and laugh because I saw 2 or 3 emails today where you replied "Indeed.", but then I became certain that you were doing it on purpose.
  98. # [02:40] <wirepair> sec
  99. # [02:40] <Hixie> TabAtkins: :-P
  100. # [02:42] <wirepair> yup, it changes
  101. # [02:42] <Hixie> interesting
  102. # [02:43] <Hixie> so you don't have to even focus the browser?
  103. # [02:43] <Hixie> just hitting "apply" or whatever makes the colour change?
  104. # [02:43] <wirepair> desktop -> apperence -> advanced -> selected items to change
  105. # [02:43] <wirepair> yeah
  106. # [02:43] <Hixie> nice
  107. # [02:43] <Hixie> thanks man
  108. # [02:43] <wirepair> after you hit apply, it resets the entire desktop
  109. # [02:43] <wirepair> np
  110. # [02:43] <wirepair> and the rendered view included obviously
  111. # [02:43] <Hixie> k
  112. # [02:44] <Hixie> do you know what version of IE and Windows that was by any chance?
  113. # [02:44] <wirepair> ie8
  114. # [02:44] <wirepair> 8.0.6001.18702
  115. # [02:44] <wirepair> to be exact
  116. # [02:44] <Hixie> on XP?
  117. # [02:45] <wirepair> yes
  118. # [02:45] <Hixie> k
  119. # [02:45] <Hixie> thanks again
  120. # [02:45] <wirepair> sp3, fully patched
  121. # [02:45] <TabAtkins> If you want some W7 experience, I can try it.
  122. # [02:45] <TabAtkins> Ooh, resource packages! Yay!
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  124. # [02:46] <wirepair> now.. to figure out how to automate epiphany ;<
  125. # [02:46] <wirepair> the main window has no identifier that i can match on, always takes the <title>whatever</title> value for the window text
  126. # [02:46] <wirepair> ps. automating ui's in *nix is *painful*
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  128. # [02:49] <Hixie> apparently tantek didn't like the ordering by first name and decided to reorder the speaker list on the wiki by last name :-|
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  141. # [03:09] <dbaron> Mmmm. I like Hixie's writing about colors. He uses "colour" when talking about the concept and "color" when talking about technical terms in the spec. :-)
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  143. # [03:10] <TabAtkins> Hixie's not in favor of internationalizing the CSS property names then, I suppose. ^_^
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  146. # [03:17] <aho> i still want #rrggbbaa and #rgba :>
  147. # [03:17] <aho> by the way
  148. # [03:17] <aho> <:
  149. # [03:17] <Hixie> in css?
  150. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> I know, I just need to write Colors 4 so Hyatt will let me commit it.
  151. # [03:17] <aho> yes
  152. # [03:17] <aho> 0-255, 0-255, 0-255, 0-1 is just silly
  153. # [03:18] <TabAtkins> My survey of pages showed that the compat impact of turning it on for HTML colors should be very minimal as well.
  154. # [03:19] <TabAtkins> (Just so you know, Hixie, so you can change the color parsing algorithm appropriately when I land the patch.)
  155. # [03:19] <Hixie> i do not intend to change that algorithm ever again
  156. # [03:19] <Hixie> there's no reason for anyone to use legacy colours
  157. # [03:20] <aho> ?:>
  158. # [03:20] <TabAtkins> It's somewhat annoying to patch webkit to use a different codepath for attributes and CSS properties.
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  178. # [04:31] <boblet> can anyone tell me what’s up with @profile? specifically why it was dropped from HTML5 and what’s up with the separate @profile spec?
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  246. # [08:04] <annevk5> Hixie, so how do you reckon we add multiplexing later? if it is added frames get prefixed by a byte that is an identifier?
  247. # [08:05] * Joins: nicktick (~nicktick@unaffiliated/nicktick)
  248. # [08:05] <Hixie> for example
  249. # [08:06] <Hixie> ideally we'd have a multiplexed connection connect to some predefined resource name or something
  250. # [08:07] <Hixie> but that might bo harder to do later
  251. # [08:07] <Hixie> and not so backwards-compatible
  252. # [08:07] <Hixie> so maybe we just try to connect without multiplexing, and if the server says it supports it, we do the channel open separately
  253. # [08:07] <Hixie> and just assume that everything on that origin supports it
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  255. # [08:11] <annevk5> so the server declares multiplexing support in its handshake and the client will start transmitting special frames and remember that server supports multiplexing for the duration of any ongoing connections to that server?
  256. # [08:12] <annevk5> (well, not any, *that* ongoing connection, and any new queued will use the same one)
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  258. # [08:18] <Hixie> yeah
  259. # [08:18] <Hixie> seems unlikely to me that we'll find it's actually necessary though
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  261. # [08:20] <annevk5> it does seem like a better approach to keep simple servers simple at least
  262. # [08:20] <annevk5> without having to put all kinds of provisions into framing from the start
  263. # [08:21] <Hixie> i love the juxtaposition of some of the proposals on the hybi list with the simultaneous argument that we shouldn't use variable-width framing because it's "too complicated"
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  265. # [08:24] <annevk5> yeah...
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  267. # [08:30] <annevk5> MikeSmith, added NE to 2 bugs!
  268. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> annevk5: thanks
  269. # [08:32] <annevk5> I'll do it for some more; I'm still in bed and feel rather lazy
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  275. # [08:50] <annevk5> okay, getting bored with this
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  277. # [08:58] <volkmar> what NE means?
  278. # [08:58] <annevk5> it means non-editorial or controversial (if it's editorial but controversial)
  279. # [08:59] <annevk5> it also ensures that public-html gets updates as the bug progresses
  280. # [08:59] <annevk5> so everyone is in the loop rather than just those subscribed to the bug
  281. # [08:59] <volkmar> ok :)
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  302. # [10:30] <hsivonen> sigh. even Windows Live developers sniff for Firefoxness instead of sniffing for Geckoness
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  311. # [10:52] <annevk5> Hixie, I think it might help if a separate thread is started on how multiplexing can be added later
  312. # [10:52] <annevk5> Hixie, I could email what I sketched out earlier
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  314. # [10:52] <Hixie> go for it
  315. # [10:52] <Hixie> i have to go sleep soon
  316. # [10:52] <annevk5> Hixie, I believe some people have concerns with changing the framing, but I'm not sure what they are
  317. # [10:53] <annevk5> kk
  318. # [10:53] <Hixie> me either
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  323. # [11:08] <annevk5> oh look
  324. # [11:08] <annevk5> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/ has been republished too now
  325. # [11:08] <annevk5> via myakura
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  328. # [11:20] <annevk5> poked the hybi list
  329. # [11:20] <annevk5> i am surprised there is still no reply
  330. # [11:23] <annevk5> othermaciej, in "Re: [whatwg] HTML resource packages" your last sentence got truncated (though I suppose it is clear what you wanted to say)
  331. # [11:25] <othermaciej> annevk5: d'oh
  332. # [11:25] * Parts: espadrine (~thaddee_t@AMontsouris-157-1-46-215.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  333. # [11:25] <othermaciej> I hate when I do that
  334. # [11:25] <jgraham> othermaciej: Isn't that like once every other message? :)
  335. # [11:26] <annevk5> hsivonen, lol
  336. # [11:26] <annevk5> and retweeted
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  347. # [11:33] <othermaciej> jgraham: I do it a lot when I reply to emails in haste
  348. # [11:33] <othermaciej> jgraham: because I write chunks of my reply out of order, and I don't re-read when I am rushing
  349. # [11:33] <othermaciej> I do it less than I used to because I am more careful in wording my emails most of the time
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  353. # [11:34] <jgraham> othermaciej: Maybe I should make a graph so there is some data to back up that claim :)
  354. # [11:35] * jgraham finds that if he writes emails in haste they are just ill-thought-out nonsense so tries to avoid that
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  356. # [11:35] <jgraham> (so you are ahead of me there)
  357. # [11:37] <othermaciej> I can sometimes jot off a sensible thought quickly
  358. # [11:37] <othermaciej> but I prefer to take the time to think it through and review my words
  359. # [11:37] <othermaciej> if I write quickly, I tend to be too verbose
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  365. # [11:49] <hsivonen> annevk5: the DOM of Hotmail is no laughing matter :-(
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  371. # [11:56] <Philip`> Are there any large complex dynamic web apps with nice clean readable well-structured markup and scripts?
  372. # [11:58] <workmad3> probably... but it would surprise me if they serve it to the public like so
  373. # [11:59] <workmad3> large dynamic apps seem to have moved towards removing extraneous white-space from output to minimise every last bit of output
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  383. # [12:39] <hsivonen> workmad3: Hotmail is minifying each script and style, but it's definitely not minimizing the number of <script> and <style> elements
  384. # [12:39] <hsivonen> or the number of <div>s
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  386. # [12:39] <hsivonen> it has a number of style elements each of which is a child of a div inside head!
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  466. # [16:28] <Rik`> wow, the night :target {} rule on the HTML5 spec is… weird
  467. # [16:28] <Rik`> s/night/new
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  473. # [16:33] <AryehGregor> Rik`, :target has existed for ages, hasn't it?
  474. # [16:34] <Rik`> AryehGregor: I mean the style used on the spec
  475. # [16:34] <Rik`> combining a big box-shadow and text-shadow in yellow
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  523. # [18:48] <franksalim> would working examples of amqp, stomp, xmpp, rfb, etc. over WebSocket (75/76) be sufficient to demonstrate that protocol features like framing, chunking, and multiplexing can be done in the application layer (JavaScript)?
  524. # [18:50] <annevk5> you could try on the list
  525. # [18:50] <Philip`> I don't think possibility is a useful thing to demonstrate
  526. # [18:51] <Philip`> You could demonstrate using WebSockets as a transport mechanism for IP packets and then do everything else in the application layer
  527. # [18:51] <franksalim> has been done, then
  528. # [18:51] <franksalim> this is all working code
  529. # [18:52] <Philip`> If the demonstration demonstrates the complexity of doing those things or the performance impact then that'd probably be a useful thing to demonstrate, though
  530. # [18:52] <franksalim> annevk5, i will try on the list
  531. # [18:52] <franksalim> Philip`, the biggest wins are in flexibility and interoperability
  532. # [18:53] <franksalim> without a negative impact on performance. complexity moves from browser native code to JavaScript libraries
  533. # [18:54] <franksalim> I strongly suspect the HyBi discussion is being colored by a lack of faith and experience in JavaScript
  534. # [18:54] <franksalim> which is tragic considering what WebSocket is intended for
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  536. # [18:56] <franksalim> /unsolicited opinion
  537. # [19:00] <annevk5> lol
  538. # [19:00] <annevk5> just read an email where gregw claims he tries to keep it simple
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  540. # [19:01] <Philip`> Someone who's trying to design a simple nuclear power station will make something very different to someone who's trying to design a simple bicycle storage building
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  555. # [19:23] * TabAtkins would like to see some simple examples of IDB usage, because it smells overengineered.
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  566. # [20:11] <dandaman> <body onload="alert('errho');setWidth();$('bodyId').style.display='';" id="bodyId" onscroll="scrolltop()" style=" margin:0 auto;"> gives me an alert
  567. # [20:11] <dandaman> but when i put that alert in the first line of my setwidth() function, nothing comes up
  568. # [20:11] <dandaman> the case matches the function too
  569. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Damn your precise yet intricate prose. After considerable pain, I find that everything you wrote about margin-collapsing is exactly correct, but requires reverse-engineering for a normal mortal to decode.
  570. # [20:11] <dandaman> what the hell :(
  571. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> dandaman: Are you using jQuery or Prototype?
  572. # [20:13] <dandaman> mootools
  573. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> Okay, I was just wondering about the $('bodyId') call, because it would cause an error in jQuery.
  574. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> Do you see any errors in your error console?
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  576. # [20:14] <dandaman> hmm lemme check out firebug
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  578. # [20:14] <dandaman> Access to restricted URI denied.
  579. # [20:14] <dandaman> thats what my css tab says
  580. # [20:14] <dandaman> dunno what the hell that means
  581. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> Look in the javascript tab.
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  583. # [20:15] <dandaman> public_smo_scripts.js gives me the same access restricted thing
  584. # [20:16] <dandaman> i can get rid of that
  585. # [20:16] <dandaman> forgot i left that when i was playing around with a tutorial
  586. # [20:16] <dandaman> no more access restricted
  587. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> I'm looking for any errors that suggest that setWidth() isn't being called.
  588. # [20:16] <dandaman> but it still isnt working
  589. # [20:16] <Hixie> TabAtkins: margin collapsing is the result of dbaron and i thinking CSS1 and CSS2 were infallible words and thus us working out the only set of rules that could completely solve them. Then we wrote them explicitly and that was CSS2.1.
  590. # [20:17] <dandaman> yea, i mean the setWidth() was working before i added a bunch of $('variable').style.display='none' to onclicks
  591. # [20:17] <Hixie> TabAtkins: then we learnt that we could change specs and we were like "ohhhh. we should have just made margin collapsing simpler. oops."
  592. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Right. And at this point it can't be changed anymore, as far as I can tell.
  593. # [20:17] <dandaman> but i made sure those were all legit changes
  594. # [20:17] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah :-(
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  597. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: So now I'm trying to see how I can rephrase things and add informative notes so that it's actually parseable by a human.
  598. # [20:18] <dandaman> oh wow
  599. # [20:18] <dandaman> left out a ' in a bunch of these
  600. # [20:18] <dandaman> there we go
  601. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> dandaman: If you didn't see any errors about those, then you're not looking at the right error console.
  602. # [20:18] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i wouldn't rephrase it, every last comma is meaningful and has dastardly implications
  603. # [20:18] <Hixie> TabAtkins: but informative notes would be fantastic! with diagrams!
  604. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> There will be so many diagrams!
  605. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> dandaman: In FF try Tools->Error Console.
  606. # [20:22] <dandaman> i cant use ff because it doesnt support css3 :\
  607. # [20:22] <dandaman> or rather i dont because google chrome doesnt need plugins
  608. # [20:22] <dandaman> do you know where the error console is on chrome?
  609. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> dandaman: ... (a) That's quite wrong, and (b) you said you were using Firebug.
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  611. # [20:23] <dandaman> chrome's got firebug too
  612. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> No, it's got a Web Inspector.
  613. # [20:23] <dandaman> does the new firefox come with css3 support?
  614. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Or rather, "Developer Tools".
  615. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> In there, just go to the Console tab.
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  617. # [20:24] <dandaman> kk, but there is a firebug add-on for chrome in case you were curious, im using it right now :)
  618. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> Huh. Weird.
  619. # [20:24] <dandaman> found the console, thanks
  620. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> Anyway, yes, Firefox supports plenty of CSS3 stuff.
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  622. # [20:25] <dandaman> guess im using an old version then
  623. # [20:25] <dandaman> i like chrome better anyway
  624. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> What version are you using, and what do you consider "CSS3"?
  625. # [20:25] <dandaman> so much faster
  626. # [20:26] <dandaman> well the main thing firefox wont do for me is sliding transitions
  627. # [20:26] <dandaman> -transition:all 1.0s ease-in-out;
  628. # [20:26] <dandaman> upon further inspection it looks like firefox has a webkit for those transistions though
  629. # [20:27] <dandaman> i have 3.6.7 though
  630. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> Correct, 3.6 doesn't yet implement transitions.
  631. # [20:27] <dandaman> doesnt look like it implements gradients either :\
  632. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> Firefox implements gradients just fine.
  633. # [20:27] <dandaman> wait
  634. # [20:27] <dandaman> this is weird
  635. # [20:27] <dandaman> the bg gradient is fine
  636. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> They even implement it according to the spec.
  637. # [20:27] <dandaman> but my button gradient isnt working haha
  638. # [20:28] <dandaman> oh, i didnt put the -mozilla gradient
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  640. # [20:28] <dandaman> only webkit
  641. # [20:28] <dandaman> they really need to standardize this shit
  642. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> "firefox has a webkit for those transitions" <--- What does that mean?
  643. # [20:28] <Hixie> hmm... counter proposals to ISSUE-110
  644. # [20:28] <dandaman> as in you need to put down, -moz-transition:all 1.0s ease-in-out;
  645. # [20:28] <dandaman> not just -iwebkit...
  646. # [20:28] <Hixie> i wonder what counter proposals people would be willing to vote for
  647. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> Yes, why would you think that -webkit would work for Firefox?
  648. # [20:30] <Peter-> -webkit worked for IE Mobile, -khtml works for webkit (and vice versa)
  649. # [20:30] <Peter-> prefixes are a mess
  650. # [20:30] <miketaylr> FF4.0b2 has pretty decent support for transitions and transforms
  651. # [20:31] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@AMontsouris-157-1-46-215.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: espadrine)
  652. # [20:31] <dandaman> i didnt, i just forgot that those were the only css3 things i had in a lot of cases
  653. # [20:31] <dandaman> i made my stylesheet like 3 weeks ago
  654. # [20:31] <dandaman> kinda forgot about it
  655. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> -webkit only worked only worked in IEMobile for a short while, then they quickly backed off because it was a horrible idea.
  656. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> I wasn't aware that -khtml worked for webkit, but webkit did come from that, so shrug.
  657. # [20:34] <dandaman> webkit seems to work for chrome though
  658. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> Yes, because both Chrome and Safari use the Webkit rendering engine.
  659. # [20:37] <dandaman> how come mozilla doesn't just jump on and use webkit instead of complicating matters and having their own engine?
  660. # [20:37] <miketaylr> :/
  661. # [20:38] * mamund_ is now known as mamund
  662. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> Because more engines = mo' betta'
  663. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> (Competition is good in the rendering engine world.)
  664. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Also, it would require a huge amount of work to switch completely, and their programmers would all have to get familiar with WebKit when they're already familiar with Gecko.
  665. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> WebKit and Gecko do borrow from one another liberally where it makes sense, but it doesn't make sense for either to just use the other engine wholesale.
  666. # [20:41] <dandaman> hmmm, good to know
  667. # [20:42] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-jmsvvxgvrdsuvkan)
  668. # [20:42] <dandaman> i forget that the discomfort of non-standardization promotes progress
  669. # [20:45] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-txcyixgwenggrnok)
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  672. # [20:55] * Joins: dandaman (~Daniel.Sa@216.52.240.243)
  673. # [20:56] <dandaman> anyone know of a channel for mobile web development?
  674. # [21:02] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I do like how protective Google is of their performance crown at JS, speaking of competition.
  675. # [21:02] * gsnedders heard that there were people running around after Carakan shipped trying to beat it
  676. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, that's totally unlike other browser vendors, right?
  677. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> I mean, doesn't like every single browser release these days claim to have the fastest JS engine in existence?
  678. # [21:05] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I only got the impression of real panic in Google-land when Carakan shipped
  679. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> How did you get that impression?
  680. # [21:05] * gsnedders shrugs
  681. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> I can't see them panicking *too* much. I mean, it took them less than 24 hours after release to eclipse Opera's market share, if I remember correctly.
  682. # [21:08] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@conference/yapc-eu/x-zvajlednkteeeyyr) (Quit: Leaving.)
  683. # [21:08] <gsnedders> Having a link on Google.com is kinda benefical, I guess :)
  684. # [21:09] <Philip`> We need to have as many benchmarks as there are browser engines
  685. # [21:09] <Philip`> then everyone can be the fastest browser in the world on their own JS benchmark
  686. # [21:09] <gsnedders> It's nice to be able to claim we're fastest on someone else's though :)
  687. # [21:09] <Philip`> and then they can stop worrying about it and start optimising things that real users will care about
  688. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> Philip`, why do you think they'd ever do that?
  689. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> If it's not measurable . . .
  690. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> The measurability increases the competition.
  691. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> Because everyone can compete on every last millisecond, instead of just saying "meh, we're fast enough".
  692. # [21:11] <Peter-> IE9 Platform Preview 4 just got released
  693. # [21:11] <Peter-> rather unexpected
  694. # [21:11] <Peter-> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/
  695. # [21:11] <gsnedders> Peter-: Any changelog?
  696. # [21:11] <Peter-> not yet, they're still updating pages
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  698. # [21:12] <gsnedders> 95/100 on Acide
  699. # [21:12] <gsnedders> *Acid3
  700. # [21:13] <Peter-> they've madea a demo called Hamster Dance Revolution
  701. # [21:13] <Peter-> that sounds cool already
  702. # [21:13] <gsnedders> I guess my guess of them actually aiming for 100/100 is still on track
  703. # [21:13] <Peter-> they stated not to implement SMIL
  704. # [21:13] <gsnedders> They've stated it's not a current aim.
  705. # [21:13] <gsnedders> Not that it won't be later on in the release cycle.
  706. # [21:14] <gsnedders> (Or at lesat that was the case when I last looked)
  707. # [21:15] <gsnedders> (My theory is they're still deliberately not promising anything, not that they aren't planning things)
  708. # [21:16] <Peter-> "Microsoft doesn't want to support SMIL because the HTML+Time declarative animation it already has never gets used" according to zdnet
  709. # [21:16] <Peter-> but we'll know in a few minutes I suppose
  710. # [21:16] <AryehGregor> Peter-, is that to shut up the guy on Slashdot who has as his sig "HTML5 will displace Flash when it can do [link to that annoying badger/snake video]"?
  711. # [21:16] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@FLA1Abj101.hkd.mesh.ad.jp)
  712. # [21:16] <gsnedders> I saw something about not shipping final until next year
  713. # [21:16] <Peter-> I do not think so, it was posted early June
  714. # [21:16] <gsnedders> Peter-: That's only part of SMIL, though, no?
  715. # [21:17] <gsnedders> s/part/a small part/
  716. # [21:17] <Peter-> to be honest, I'm not sure
  717. # [21:17] <Peter-> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/info/ReleaseNotes/Default.html
  718. # [21:17] <gsnedders> I can't remember to much detail about HMTL+TIME
  719. # [21:18] <Peter-> refresh a few times, some nodes on their server cluster already got updated
  720. # [21:18] <Peter-> DOMException objects seems to be the largest improvement
  721. # [21:18] <Philip`> Looks like mostly DOM-implementation changes
  722. # [21:19] <Philip`> and no significant new features
  723. # [21:19] * Joins: pablof (~palbo@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  724. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> What real-world features do they still need to add, practically speaking? Somewhat better SVG support, anything else?
  725. # [21:19] <Peter-> They're talking about updates to the DOM hierarchy, "Changes align IE9 standards mode with W3C standards", meaning an HTML5 parser?
  726. # [21:19] <gsnedders> "var g = document.getElementById; g(‘test’); // Now throws an exception"
  727. # [21:19] <gsnedders> What spec defines that?
  728. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, I bet the ECMAScript spec defines that you should treat it as a syntax error when someone tries to use curly quotes.
  729. # [21:20] <gsnedders> [[Call]] gone from HTMLCollection
  730. # [21:20] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: No, that's an impl allowable extension ;P
  731. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> Peter-, if they did an HTML5 parser, they'd bill it higher, I'm thinking, because it's a really big backend change.
  732. # [21:22] * Quits: baba (~sallabanc@69.50.70.12) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  733. # [21:22] <Peter-> Probably, yes
  734. # [21:22] <Peter-> they did pass Safari in sunspider
  735. # [21:23] <Peter-> only by 2ms though
  736. # [21:23] <gsnedders> Still slower than Opera 10.60 though :P
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  744. # [21:29] <Peter-> Four of the five ACID3 tests they fail are SMIL, one is SVG fonts
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  746. # [21:37] <paul_irish> AryehGregor: they're still missing css transitions, transforms, box shadow, gradients, geolocation.... and then web workers, indexeddb, app cache, flexbox, file api, webgl..
  747. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> Half that stuff isn't even close to being properly standardized yet.
  748. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> IE isn't going to implement experimental stuff with a two-year release cycle.
  749. # [21:38] <paul_irish> regardless of that, half that stuff is very much real-world nowadays.
  750. # [21:39] <Peter-> paul_irish: they implemented CSS values for rotations/timing, which is rather useless if you don't plan to do anything with them
  751. # [21:41] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  752. # [21:42] <paul_irish> Peter-: rotations/timing ?
  753. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> Presumably he means the deg, s, etc. units.
  754. # [21:42] <Peter-> deg/grad/rad/turn/ms/s
  755. # [21:43] <Peter-> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/ie/ff468705.aspx#_CSS3_Values_Units
  756. # [21:46] <paul_irish> ah. good eye.
  757. # [21:47] <Peter-> Changelog of that document says it PP4 added support for WebIDL as well
  758. # [21:47] * Quits: romeo_ (~romeo__@x1-6-00-07-95-57-08-bb.k38.webspeed.dk) (Quit: Leaving)
  759. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> "Support for WebM software is not included in this release"
  760. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> I wonder if that means "support like we said before, where you have to manually install the codec" or proper support.
  761. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> If it's proper support, it will be time to break out the champagne.
  762. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> One would imagine that Google and Microsoft have been doing all sorts of secret negotiations about this . . .
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  766. # [22:11] * Joins: hamcore (hamcore@unaffiliated/msmosso)
  767. # [22:20] <annevk5> hmm, quite a bit of the XMLHttpRequest tests I created are now wrong per the specification...
  768. # [22:22] * Joins: ap (~ap@62.122.208.177)
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  770. # [22:23] * KaOSoFt is now known as BArOc
  771. # [22:23] * BArOc is now known as AndresBotero
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  775. # [22:30] <Philip`> Is <html manifest="..."> not usable in XHTML?
  776. # [22:30] <Philip`> (Seems it's only triggered by the HTML parser)
  777. # [22:30] <annevk5> it is
  778. # [22:30] <annevk5> see the XML loading thingie
  779. # [22:31] <annevk5> http://www.whatwg.org/C#read-xml
  780. # [22:31] <Hixie> you don't need the www.
  781. # [22:31] <Hixie> :-)
  782. # [22:31] <annevk5> jaja :)
  783. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> What's a dependable way to tell when a <video> has frame data to be grabbed?
  784. # [22:31] <annevk5> bbiab
  785. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> (Waiting for "play" doesn't work.)
  786. # [22:31] * Quits: annevk5 (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: annevk5)
  787. # [22:32] <Philip`> Ah, I was just looking the in "XHTML Syntax" section
  788. # [22:32] <Philip`> s/the in/in the/
  789. # [22:32] <Hixie> TabAtkins: iirc there's an event for it
  790. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> "canshowcurrentframe"?
  791. # [22:33] <Hixie> sounds right
  792. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> kk, chrome just doesn't fire that event, it seems. Drat.
  793. # [22:33] <Hixie> file a bug
  794. # [22:33] <Hixie> :-)
  795. # [22:35] <Philip`> Should set up http://c.whatwg.org/#whatever so that autocompleting location bars will probably just need the "c.w"
  796. # [22:38] <Hixie> done
  797. # [22:38] <Hixie> http://c.whatwg.org/ redirects to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html and http://c.whatwg.org/m redirects to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/
  798. # [22:38] <Philip`> error id: "bad_httpd_conf"
  799. # [22:39] <Hixie> yeah give it a few minutes
  800. # [22:39] <Philip`> Now it redirects to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.htmlm
  801. # [22:40] <Philip`> which is closer
  802. # [22:40] <Hixie> hm, i guess it would huh
  803. # [22:40] <Hixie> try now?
  804. # [22:40] <Philip`> That works better
  805. # [22:40] <Hixie> had them in the wrong order
  806. # [22:42] <Philip`> Hmm, now how do I teach Opera to autocomplete to the /m address instead of the / one...
  807. # [22:42] * Quits: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  808. # [22:43] * Joins: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca)
  809. # [22:44] <Hixie> why can't i register xn--7ca.whatwg.org
  810. # [22:44] <Hixie> silly dreamhost restrictions
  811. # [22:46] <gsnedders> Do you not have a HAPPY FACE or whatever on hixie.ch?
  812. # [22:46] <Hixie> yes
  813. # [22:47] <Hixie> http://xn--74h.damowmow.com/
  814. # [22:47] <gsnedders> Is that not on dreamhost?
  815. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> Doesn't show up a happy face in Chrome. :(
  816. # [22:49] <Hixie> it's on dreamhost
  817. # [22:50] <Hixie> ok i just got a captcha where one of the characters was U+221E
  818. # [22:50] <Hixie> how are people supposed to type that in!
  819. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> lolwut?
  820. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> You sure it wasn't an 8?
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  824. # [22:52] <gsnedders> alt + 5 on the default US/GB Macintosh keymap? :P
  825. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> Ctrl+Shift+u221E
  826. # [22:52] <Hixie> huh, i never knew about alt+5
  827. # [22:52] * AryehGregor actually knows that one by heart, more or less
  828. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: :D
  829. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: It's useful!
  830. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Surely that sort of thing conflicts like crazy with application hotkeys?
  831. # [22:53] <Hixie> TabAtkins: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/434
  832. # [22:53] <Hixie> i can't say i type infinities very often
  833. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Wait, was that input actually accepted?
  834. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> I'd think it's an 8.
  835. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> Although, wait.
  836. # [22:54] <Hixie> yes, it was accepted
  837. # [22:54] <Hixie> but it's recaptcha
  838. # [22:54] <Hixie> so it probably wasn't checking that side
  839. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Oh, huh. Indeed it is infinity.
  840. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> Recaptcha actually presents two things and only looks at one, yeah.
  841. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> I was about to say.
  842. # [22:54] <Hixie> hopefully some ocr will know about inifinity now!
  843. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> So maybe for the side it doesn't look at, it doesn't check well enough that it's really ASCII text.
  844. # [22:55] <Philip`> Hixie: Only if the other people who get shown that symbol know how to type it
  845. # [22:55] <Philip`> otherwise it has no reason to trust your input
  846. # [22:56] <Hixie> i'll just go over to the recaptcha team and let them know to make their system trust me... :-P
  847. # [22:56] <Hixie> anyway
  848. # [22:56] <Hixie> Philip`: i was trying to make http://xn--7ca.whatwg.org/ a shortcut for the multipage one for you, but i can't yet. i filed a support request for you.
  849. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> Heh, I forgot that Google bought reCAPTCHA too.
  850. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> Like every other cool thing.
  851. # [22:58] <Philip`> I can't type ç in Opera :-(
  852. # [22:58] <gsnedders> IE9PP4 is claiming 374 new JS tests…
  853. # [22:58] <Philip`> (Works in other applications with ctrl+= c)
  854. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> I didn't know we'd bought recaptcha!
  855. # [22:59] <Philip`> s/ctrl/altgr/
  856. # [22:59] <Philip`> ¢.whatwg.org would be better for me :-)
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  858. # [23:00] <Hixie> Philip`: k :-)
  859. # [23:01] * aroben is now known as aroben|phone
  860. # [23:01] <Philip`> Oh, that doesn't work
  861. # [23:01] <Philip`> "The URL http://¢.whatwg.org contains characters that are not valid in the location they are found."
  862. # [23:02] <Hixie> well dreamhost won't let me register that one either anyway
  863. # [23:03] * Joins: annevk5 (~annevk@ti0035a340-dhcp0025.bb.online.no)
  864. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> What's the point of the NE keyword?
  865. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> To spam everyone with bugmail in case they care?
  866. # [23:04] <Philip`> Yes
  867. # [23:05] <jgraham> Isn't this whole non-ascii thing just likely to upset anti-homograph code
  868. # [23:05] <Philip`> Otherwise all the technical discussion gets stuck in Bugzilla and nobody even knows about it
  869. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> jgraham, aren't registrars required to vet IDNs for homographs before allowing registrations?
  870. # [23:06] <Philip`> jgraham: Why should anyone care about homographs here?
  871. # [23:06] <Philip`> given that you could use http://www.paypal.com.whatwg.org and don't need to bother with the homography
  872. # [23:07] <Hixie> indeed
  873. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> Who decided to make domain names in URLs backward?! :(
  874. # [23:07] <Hixie> tim
  875. # [23:07] <jgraham> Philip`: Possibly. I am assuming that whatever defences browsers have (if any) are rather dumb
  876. # [23:07] <Hixie> iirc
  877. # [23:07] <annevk5> AryehGregor, see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100804#l-277 for NE
  878. # [23:07] <jgraham> Which seems likely :)
  879. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> I guess domain names started out backward, and file paths started out forwards, and TBL wanted to stitch them together without reversing either one.
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  881. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> Yeah, though he's on record as regretting that decision.
  882. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> Yay, more polls.
  883. # [23:10] * AryehGregor puts off voting for a few days
  884. # [23:11] <Hixie> this one doesn't seem so important
  885. # [23:11] <Hixie> it's just "should the w3c spec be complete or not"
  886. # [23:11] <Hixie> and we've already decided it shouldn't be :-)
  887. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> Heh.
  888. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> True.
  889. # [23:13] * aroben|phone is now known as aroben
  890. # [23:14] <othermaciej> I think it's useful for the w3c spec to contain features that vendors plan to implement
  891. # [23:14] <othermaciej> if only for IPR disarmament reasons
  892. # [23:15] <othermaciej> so far I can't tell if any non-WebKit-based browsers have an interest in srcdoc
  893. # [23:15] <Hixie> i agree that it would be useful
  894. # [23:15] <annevk5> i'm interested
  895. # [23:15] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  896. # [23:15] <annevk5> and our security folks are somewhat
  897. # [23:16] <Hixie> but given limited capacity to effect change, focusing only on normative issues is a higher priority for me
  898. # [23:16] <annevk5> it doesn't have much priority for us at the moment though
  899. # [23:16] <Hixie> and it seems i can leave it up to the chairs to make sure that the w3c html spec is relevant
  900. # [23:17] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231) (Quit: boaz)
  901. # [23:17] <othermaciej> you're free to have your own priorities; I'm mentioning reasons that others might find it useful to reply to the survey
  902. # [23:18] <annevk5> oh
  903. # [23:18] <othermaciej> however, it is also possible and entirely ok that people may find it a waste of time to reply
  904. # [23:18] <annevk5> well, it seems most is already said by the change proposal and the first response :)
  905. # [23:19] <othermaciej> if Opera is potentially interested in implementing, that is a valuable data point, whether in email or the survey
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  907. # [23:22] <annevk5> ok
  908. # [23:22] <annevk5> replied
  909. # [23:24] <annevk5> i put it as an argument against dropping
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  923. # [23:49] <espadrine> I get a parse error with html5lib, and don't understand it...
  924. # [23:49] <espadrine> line 43 col 7: end-tag-too-early-ignored
  925. # [23:49] <espadrine> It's on a <form>
  926. # [23:49] <Hixie> try validating with henri's validator, see what it says
  927. # [23:52] <espadrine> http://validator.w3.org/check sees nothing; where is henri's validator?
  928. # [23:53] <boblet> http://validator.nu/
  929. # [23:54] <espadrine> Neither does validator.nu
  930. # [23:54] <Hixie> validator.whatwg.org lists the current known html5 validators (that is, henri's validator)
  931. # [23:54] <Hixie> might be a bug in html5lib
  932. # [23:54] <Hixie> do you have a minimised test case showing the problem?
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  935. # [23:56] <espadrine> It's a 5-line form, should I paste it here?
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  938. # [23:57] <boblet> Hixie: what’s up with @profile, and the separate @profile spec?
  939. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> boblet: @profile doesn't solve real problems and isn't used by anything worthwhile on the real web, so it's dropped.
  940. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> The separate @profile spec is by someone who disagrees.
  941. # [23:58] <boblet> TabAtkins: aah thanks (well two ppl who disagree)
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  943. # [23:58] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  944. # [23:59] * Parts: richardschwerdtf (~RichS@99-39-114-91.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
  945. # Session Close: Thu Aug 05 00:00:00 2010

The end :)