/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 12 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, http://validator.nu/?doc=http://www.xanthir.com/blog/
  4. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> Noted.
  5. # [00:02] <Hixie> i wish we could make -- valid
  6. # [00:02] <Hixie> do we really care that it's not mappable to XML?
  7. # [00:02] <Hixie> and that it causes problems in older Geckos?
  8. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> NO.
  9. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> That was more forceful than intended.
  10. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> No.
  11. # [00:02] <Hixie> heh
  12. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> So I've fixed the error I care about. The validator can continue to complain about the line of ------ I have in a comment.
  13. # [00:03] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-60-18.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  14. # [00:04] <Hixie> anyone understand what http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10841 is about?
  15. # [00:04] * Joins: djgeo (~djgeo@190.166.242.14)
  16. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> I think he wants the ability for captions to adjust the playback rate.
  17. # [00:05] <Hixie> i don't understand what that means
  18. # [00:05] <Hixie> how could captions do that?
  19. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Through some additional switch embedded in-band, I presume.
  20. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> The intent is so that with, frex, descriptions, you can have extra time to read the description while it's running.
  21. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> But only when you have the description track turned on.
  22. # [00:06] <KaOSoFt> Hello. In HTML5, can I do something like <br /> without breaking validation?
  23. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Yes, using a trailing slash on void elements is just fine. It just doesn't mean anything.
  24. # [00:07] <Hixie> TabAtkins: hm, interesting. thanks.
  25. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Doesn't mean anything special, that is. It's the same as <br>.
  26. # [00:07] <Hixie> i wonder if he means that this should just be allowed in principle, or that it should be part of a specific caption format, or part of <track>, or something else
  27. # [00:07] <cardona507> sans the cruft :D
  28. # [00:08] <Hixie> oh well, i asked him to elaborate
  29. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's fine. If I didn't already know what the bug was about I wouldn't be able to parse what he said.
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  32. # [00:13] <hober> TabAtkins: http://microformatique.com/optimus/?format=validate&uri=http://www.xanthir.com/blog/
  33. # [00:14] <hober> also http://lukearno.com/projects/hatom2atom/?url=http://www.xanthir.com/blog/
  34. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> hober: That validator is broken. For one, it's telling me that things aren't specified multiple times. For two, it's telling me that entry-title, updated, and bookmark aren't specified, then listing the entry-title, updated, and bookmark. For 3, author is specified in the feed, outside of the entry, as allowed by the hAtom format.
  35. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> For the second link, are you getting anything? I get a Python error.
  36. # [00:16] <hober> boo. :( have you sent a bug report to the validator peeps?
  37. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> hober: Not yet. I'm just now critiquing it. ^_^
  38. # [00:17] <hober> re: hAtom2Atom, yeah, I'm seeing the same thing, which is why I ran your page through the validator.
  39. # [00:17] * hober is impatient to subscribe to your blog :)
  40. # [00:17] <paul_irish> for real.
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  42. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Shortlinks first. Then a real atom feed for you people. Is there any standard location/filename for an atom feed?
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  44. # [00:18] <Hixie> anyone got a good idea of a new example for http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10743 ?
  45. # [00:18] <Hixie> (that is, an example of a conformance requirement on authors that is present only to help authors avoid a brittle part of the language)
  46. # [00:19] <hober> TabAtkins: no, but you might as well mint the cleanest url possible (mine is /feed)
  47. # [00:19] <Hixie> i.e. another example for "Errors involving fragile syntax constructs" in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/introduction.html#syntax-errors
  48. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> hober: Makes sense. I'll probably do /blog/atom, I guess.
  49. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Anything involving <p> autoclosing?
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  51. # [00:20] <hober> unquoted href with Sufficiently Weird URL in it?
  52. # [00:20] <Hixie> i don't know that we have any conformance requirements to avoid that (the only thing that's really fragile there is <p> bla bla \n <ins> <p> bla bla , and nothing is especially done to help authors avoid that issue
  53. # [00:21] <Hixie> )
  54. # [00:21] <Hixie> hober: hmm, href=?a=b maybe
  55. # [00:21] <Hixie> hober: though that's really illegal for another reason (likely typo, not being fragile)
  56. # [00:22] <hober> something involving the AAA?
  57. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> Actually, that's probably a good example, since it's one of the errors the validator flagged on my site.
  58. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> (It wasn't a typo in my case, of course.)
  59. # [00:22] <gsnedders> For those who have me on Facebook and feel helpful: http://www.facebook.com/gsnedders/posts/448566623395
  60. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: What do you need help with?
  61. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Seems like everything's taken care of.
  62. # [00:25] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: The specific post? Or does that not show?
  63. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I see the post. You gave an answer, and the dude seems to have understood it.
  64. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Permalinks are now short. Happy?
  65. # [00:26] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I'm too tired to try and understand people :P
  66. # [00:26] * aroben is now known as aroben|phone
  67. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: (Using tantek's system of a 3-digit number encoding days since the epoch in a specially-crafted sexagecimal designed for maximum readability, followed by a sexagecimal digit encoding the index of the post on that day.)
  68. # [00:31] <Dashiva> I hope Mark writes the HTML4 deployment post
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  70. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> This seems somehow wrong: <link>rel="self" href="/feed"</link>
  71. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> It's from a tutorial on the Atom format.
  72. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Surely that should be <link rel="self" href="/feed" />?
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  83. # [01:07] <ai_scott> TabAtkins surely
  84. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> That's what I went with, after looking at other atom code elsewhere. That tutorial was kinda sketchy in several ways.
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  106. # [02:07] <TabAtkins> hober, paul_irish: Feed up and validated. http://www.xanthir.com/blog/atom/
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  109. # [02:11] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: lookin great
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  116. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, Google Reader doesn't seem to be creating links from the post's title. Are the permalinks not in the feed?
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  118. # [02:25] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Ah, maybe not. One sec.
  119. # [02:26] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: can you try it again?
  120. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> Still doesn't seem to show up.
  121. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> Maybe it's cached, though.
  122. # [02:27] <TabAtkins> Wait, I'm doing it wrong.
  123. # [02:27] <AryehGregor> Have you settled on "Tab Completion" for the Atom feed, or is that just your conversion script picking a random name each time you run it and then serving it indefinitely?
  124. # [02:27] <TabAtkins> Try it now?
  125. # [02:27] * AryehGregor wonders how clients will cope with changing names
  126. # [02:27] <TabAtkins> Settled on Tab Completion.
  127. # [02:28] <TabAtkins> To avoid clients being weird with changing names.
  128. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> Now Chrome's built-in feed display shows the links, but Reader still doesn't. I'm guessing some type of caching.
  129. # [02:28] <TabAtkins> Yeah, probably.
  130. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> I bet Reader only does one request and uses the result for all users. Would be silly otherwise.
  131. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> (It would be fun to see how clients reacted to a feed changing name every time you refresh. No rule against it, right?)
  132. # [02:30] * AryehGregor spent the last hour or something fighting the NYT's HTML5 FUD on Slashdot
  133. # [02:30] <AryehGregor> Probably not worthwhile, ultimately, but I didn't feel like doing anything useful.
  134. # [02:30] <TabAtkins> Also, yay, wide-screen layout on the main blog (where "wide" = "1000px")
  135. # [02:31] <AryehGregor> The NYT article was incredibly pathetic. Like: "The new Web language and its additional features present more tracking opportunities because the technology uses a process in which large amounts of data can be collected and stored on the user’s hard drive while online. Because of that process, advertisers and others could, experts say, see weeks or even months of personal data. That could include a user’s location, time zone, photographs,
  136. # [02:31] <AryehGregor> text from blogs, shopping cart contents, e-mails and a history of the Web pages visited." http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/11/business/media/11privacy.html
  137. # [02:31] <AryehGregor> What the *heck*?
  138. # [02:32] <AryehGregor> How could they have even made that *up*?
  139. # [02:33] * AryehGregor decides not to care.
  140. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> It's extremely obvious that the report has no idea what they're talking about. As usual.
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  142. # [02:36] <micheil> AryehGregor: A slow news week, they need something to create news, even if they create it them selves.
  143. # [02:37] <micheil> it's also quite NIMBY style thing.
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  146. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> Looks like Mozilla is serious about getting pipelining to work: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=603503
  147. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> Nice.
  148. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> (At least assuming Patrick McManus is in a position to do anything about it.)
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  150. # [02:50] <AryehGregor> He seems to be a kernel hacker, not a Mozilla hacker.
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  153. # [02:52] <roc> he contributes to Mozilla
  154. # [02:52] <AryehGregor> Judging by his blog, his kernel contributions look TCP-related, so pipelining sounds right up his alley.
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  163. # [03:20] <AryehGregor> Well, his blog is interesting. I just read the whole history. http://bitsup.blogspot.com/
  164. # [03:20] * AryehGregor goes to bed
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  263. # [09:41] <Hixie> where does http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-range/ allow me to actually see the spec?
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  266. # [09:47] <Philip`> Hixie: http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-range/raw/555ad6ae74fa/source.html ?
  267. # [09:47] <Hixie> that seems to have content-disposition headers
  268. # [09:48] <Hixie> but it'll do, thanks
  269. # [09:49] <Hixie> anyone write arabic fluently here?
  270. # [09:49] <Hixie> or hebrew?
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  273. # [10:01] <jgraham> Just when I thought HyBi couldn't get any worse, people started top posting
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  276. # [10:05] <annevk> Hixie, can you modify that multipart algo so it's easier to invoke from outside of <form>? i.e. from FormData
  277. # [10:05] <Hixie> yeah that seems reasonable. file a bug describing what interface you want and i'll make sure to make it available.
  278. # [10:06] <annevk> cool
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  280. # [10:13] <jgraham> Hixie: BTW on the subject of HyBi, it seems that NPN has difficult deployment issues e.g. there was some suggestion that it would make writing a server in java hard until some hypothetical future java release
  281. # [10:14] <jgraham> So it seems to me that the compromise solution is the best option on the table at the moment
  282. # [10:14] <annevk> oh yes
  283. # [10:14] <Hixie> or we could just update java
  284. # [10:14] <annevk> Unicode 6 adds support for emoji
  285. # [10:14] <Hixie> unicode 6 has a fantastic set of new characters
  286. # [10:14] <Hixie> i can't wait for fonts!
  287. # [10:15] <jgraham> Hixie: You plan to ship Java 1.7 as part of WebSockets? That is... ambitious
  288. # [10:15] <Hixie> at the current rate, it's unclear to me which will ship first
  289. # [10:15] <Hixie> i know people are working on java 1.7 and making progress
  290. # [10:15] <Hixie> it's unclear if the same can be said of websockets
  291. # [10:15] <annevk> phases of the moon have characters too
  292. # [10:16] <Hixie> jgraham: (anyway you don't need a new java, just a new TLS library)
  293. # [10:18] <annevk> aah NY Times cannot spell HTML5
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  295. # [10:20] <annevk> I see that article was already discussed...
  296. # [10:20] <annevk> I worry more about the less obvious means of tracking not discussed by the much cited EverCookie (or whatever it was called)
  297. # [10:20] <Hixie> you mean they can't spell HTTP
  298. # [10:20] <annevk> the ones Björn mentioned
  299. # [10:21] * Joins: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
  300. # [10:21] <annevk> like DNS caching, fingerprinting, HTTP indeed, etc.
  301. # [10:22] <annevk> and we could probably reduce risk significantly, but then everything will be dogslow and legit stuff will stop working
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  304. # [10:24] <Hixie> we really should reduce fingerprinting, if only as an excuse to remove the crap from our HTTP requests like Accept-Encoding and whatnot
  305. # [10:24] <Hixie> and to simplify the UA strings
  306. # [10:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: you pinged me
  307. # [10:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: i did?
  308. # [10:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, yt'ed.
  309. # [10:25] <jgraham> Hixie: The speed-to-spec-completion argument works heavily against NPN. NPN was just as controversial for the TLS people as WebSockets has been for HTTP people
  310. # [10:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: ah yeah. i think i ended up asking the question on a bug.
  311. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  312. # [10:26] <hsivonen> I'm wondering if there's anything other than CSS and Web Apps that I should request observer status for
  313. # [10:26] <Hixie> jgraham: controversy in a wg is imho irrelevant, what matters is whether UAs will implement.
  314. # [10:26] <hsivonen> for TPAC week, that is
  315. # [10:28] <annevk> Hixie, yeah, we're killing Accept-Encoding and some useless User-Agent bits for starters
  316. # [10:28] <hsivonen> in a way, I'm tempted to observe the TAG meeting
  317. # [10:28] <jgraham> Hixie: The two may be somewhat related when you want changes on both clients and server sides
  318. # [10:29] <annevk> hsivonen, masochist? ;p
  319. # [10:29] <Hixie> jgraham: in my experience, servers will implement whatever it takes to interop with the clients.
  320. # [10:29] <jgraham> Since there is likely to be non-trivial overlap between the people who are unhappy and the implementors of major components
  321. # [10:29] <Hixie> jgraham: (and precisely nothing more)
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  323. # [10:30] <Hixie> jgraham: (even if doing more is the right thing for future extensibility... which is why i'd specced the error handling differently in the old websockets drafts for client and server)
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  325. # [10:34] <annevk> was http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/2010/10/websockets-shipping-before-its-ready/ mentioned here already?
  326. # [10:34] <annevk> I get called out for not prefixing in Opera's experimental release while Firefox 4 betas ship unprefixed too
  327. # [10:36] <annevk> until 7 days ago it wasn't even clear whether Mozilla was considering shipping a prefixed version judging from b.m.o
  328. # [10:36] <Rik`> the decision is changing twice a week
  329. # [10:36] <annevk> way to wake up
  330. # [10:38] <Hixie> he probably just misunderstood what you were shipping
  331. # [10:40] <annevk> well unless something changes our final will ship unprefixed too
  332. # [10:41] <annevk> we're not a market leader, we cannot really afford being incompatible
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  334. # [10:41] <annevk> if Chrome et al were shipping with a prefixed version of some kind, so would we
  335. # [10:44] <Hixie> are you actually shipping -76 or are you shipping the fixed version of -00 that's on the whatwg.org site and marked as obsolete?
  336. # [10:46] <annevk> oh, -00 I guess
  337. # [10:46] <Rik`> I don't understand why he is talking about Opera
  338. # [10:46] <Hixie> annevk: k
  339. # [10:46] <annevk> everyone seems to call it -76
  340. # [10:46] <Hixie> yeah
  341. # [10:46] <Hixie> dunno what chrome and safari actually implement
  342. # [10:46] <Rik`> the problem is not the second or third browser doing something unprefixed, it's the first one
  343. # [10:47] <annevk> http://my.opera.com/core/blog/websockets -- "Opera supports version -00 of the protocol (aka -76). This is the same as Chrome 6, Safari 5.02 and Firefox 4 beta."
  344. # [10:47] <Hixie> it'd be nice if there was a test suite online somewhere :-)
  345. # [10:47] <zcorpan> i thought -00 and -76 were the same version
  346. # [10:47] <Hixie> they are
  347. # [10:47] <Hixie> the question is whether it's -00 or -00-updated
  348. # [10:47] <Hixie> confusingly called "-latest"
  349. # [10:47] <Hixie> the version before ifette took over
  350. # [10:48] <annevk> we do the one with two types framing
  351. # [10:48] <Hixie> k
  352. # [10:48] <Hixie> so -00 then
  353. # [10:48] <Hixie> probably with some of the fixes from "-latest"
  354. # [10:48] <Hixie> man this is confusing
  355. # [10:48] <zcorpan> yes
  356. # [10:48] <annevk> and we have a test suite released, but you need to set it up
  357. # [10:48] <Hixie> i hope ifette gets a spec out there soon
  358. # [10:48] <annevk> with the rate hybi is going through things, I don't have high hopes
  359. # [10:48] <Hixie> i really just want us to do TLS-only at this point
  360. # [10:49] <Hixie> with only wss:
  361. # [10:49] <zcorpan> why only wss?
  362. # [10:49] <Hixie> i don't see the point of ws: if it's not trivial to implement
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  364. # [10:49] <Hixie> and we've clearly gone way past "trivial to implement"
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  366. # [10:50] <zcorpan> i thought there was a use case of intermediaries being able to inspect the payload
  367. # [10:50] <jgraham> It isn't at all clear to me that it is just as easy for a simple application using a prewritten server to use wss as ws
  368. # [10:51] <jgraham> I would presume wss requires the author to care about certificates and complex stuff like that
  369. # [10:51] <jgraham> Way too high a barrier to entry
  370. # [10:52] <Hixie> zcorpan: i don't know of a real use case for that
  371. # [10:53] <Hixie> jgraham: well we can add something to the API to disable cert checking if people think that that's useful. But I don't think a single 's' difference is enough of a red flag if we're going down that route, really.
  372. # [10:55] <jgraham> Well it is exactly like http, which might not be ideal but has the advantage that people understand it
  373. # [10:56] <jgraham> I don't think the right response to "we can't make it trivial" is "let's add loads of difficulty"
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  375. # [10:57] <jgraham> It is still trivial as long as someone else writes the code to do the handshake and decode the frames
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  379. # [11:03] <micheil> Hixie: yeah, s/not/no was the difference. I didn't have a chance to add more info.
  380. # [11:06] <Hixie> np thanks
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  383. # [11:12] <Hixie> i love that http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-xhtml-author-guide/html-xhtml-authoring-guide.html doesn't even remotely try to be polyglot
  384. # [11:13] <jgraham> To be clear, I assume that no one advocating prefixing the websockets API expects it to have any effect other than as a "this is experimental" signal?
  385. # [11:15] <annevk> first two videos from #fronteers10: http://vimeo.com/channels/140223 first is from adactio on the Design of HTML5
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  407. # [12:12] <micheil> annevk: any ideas on who christopher blizzard is?
  408. # [12:12] * Joins: davidhund_ (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
  409. # [12:12] <micheil> annevk: because for supporting both -76 and -02 you don't need UA detection, just feature detection.
  410. # [12:15] <smaug____> micheil: what you mean?
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  413. # [12:15] <smaug____> how do you do the feature detection?
  414. # [12:15] <micheil> well, the differences between the protocols is mainly in the protocol, not the DOM api.
  415. # [12:15] <smaug____> er, how would you do the feature detection...
  416. # [12:15] <micheil> so there'd be a way to check based on data parsing
  417. # [12:15] <micheil> like we do with -75 and -76
  418. # [12:16] <smaug____> ah, you mean on server side
  419. # [12:16] <micheil> if "sec-websocket-key3" in headers
  420. # [12:16] <micheil> (I've probably quoted that wrong)
  421. # [12:16] <micheil> yeah
  422. # [12:16] <micheil> the browser API's should be consistent
  423. # [12:16] <smaug____> what about on client side
  424. # [12:16] <micheil> client side should be to spec.
  425. # [12:16] <smaug____> api is the same, at least for now
  426. # [12:17] <micheil> as even with new handshaking, I can't see that changing.
  427. # [12:17] <micheil> the only recent major change was with subprotocol handling from what I can recall
  428. # [12:17] <micheil> with the change from DOMSring to DOMString or DOMString[]
  429. # [12:18] <Hixie> ok it's way past my bed time
  430. # [12:18] <Hixie> nn
  431. # [12:18] <micheil> although, JS defines that Array.toString = "item1,item2"
  432. # [12:18] <smaug____> ah, that subprotocol handling, which is rather useless
  433. # [12:18] <micheil> which is how you need to declare if it's just a DOMString
  434. # [12:18] <micheil> (space separated to comma separated)
  435. # [12:19] <micheil> as for server side, detecting -02 may be harder then -75/76
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  438. # [12:41] <jgraham> micheil: Christopher Blizzard is a Mozilla guy. "Director of Evangelism at Mozilla Corporation" seems to be the full job title
  439. # [12:41] <micheil> k
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  444. # [12:49] <Rik`> he is now Director of Web Platform
  445. # [12:49] <Rik`> http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/2010/07/new-role-at-mozilla-director-of-web-platform/
  446. # [12:50] <micheil> ah, okay
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  452. # [13:16] <zcorpan> micheil: -02 has a Sec-WebSocket-Draft field (or whatever it's called)
  453. # [13:16] <micheil> so you can do feature detection with that then.
  454. # [13:16] * micheil hasn't fully read -02 yet
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  460. # [13:36] <micheil> Rik`: with FF, 3.6 doesn't declare the WebSocket constructor, does it?
  461. # [13:37] <zcorpan> i wonder if mozilla and webkit developers have tried to run our websocket testsuite yet
  462. # [13:37] <micheil> zcorpan: hmm?
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  469. # [13:51] <zcorpan> micheil: we released a websocket testsuite. http://testsuites.opera.com/websockets/
  470. # [13:52] <jgraham> (client)
  471. # [13:53] <zcorpan> yes, it tests the client aspect of the protocol (-00ish) and the api
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  476. # [14:05] <micheil> zcorpan: ah, I know yahoo was doing similar.
  477. # [14:07] <zcorpan> micheil: pointer?
  478. # [14:07] <micheil> none. it was on the server side
  479. # [14:07] <micheil> non-released data
  480. # [14:07] <micheil> iirc.
  481. # [14:07] <zcorpan> oh
  482. # [14:08] <micheil> so, what do I need to run the tests?
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  486. # [14:12] <zcorpan> you need pywebsocket, see README
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  489. # [14:13] <Rik`> micheil: right, there's nothing websocket related in 3.6
  490. # [14:13] <micheil> okay, I'm getting reports of "WebSocket" in window === true in 3.6.4
  491. # [14:14] <Rik`> I just tested in 3.6.10
  492. # [14:14] <micheil> okay. odd.
  493. # [14:14] <Rik`> 3.6.4 is rather old btw
  494. # [14:15] <micheil> I'm being told: javascript:alert("WebSocket" in window)
  495. # [14:15] <micheil> is alert true
  496. # [14:15] <annevk> and javascript:alert(navigator.userAgent) in the same UA is?
  497. # [14:16] <micheil> turns out that a js library had created it for some reason.
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  499. # [14:19] <annevk> oh
  500. # [14:19] <annevk> god
  501. # [14:19] <annevk> should not have emailed hybi
  502. # [14:19] <micheil> heh.
  503. # [14:20] <jgraham> micheil: That is quite crazy
  504. # [14:21] <micheil> yeah, because this fallback implements a WebSocket object, by interfacing with flash, but doesn't define to the WebSocket DOM API
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  528. # [14:55] <GPHemsley> Hey, did you hear? HTML5 may weaken privacy! http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/11/business/media/11privacy.html
  529. # [14:55] * GPHemsley takes out his 2-by-4
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  533. # [14:56] <GPHemsley> (Not to mention that the article calls HTML5 a "new Web language"
  534. # [14:56] <GPHemsley> )
  535. # [14:57] <GPHemsley> Hmm... this same journalism appears to have written an article about Flash cookies, as well.
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  537. # [15:02] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: it would be interesting to know what the quoted people said in full
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  541. # [15:15] <micheil> hsivonen: they probably didn't say anything.
  542. # [15:16] <micheil> an unnamed source is as good as no source.
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  544. # [15:20] <hsivonen> micheil: I'd expect the named sources to have said something somewhere.
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  565. # [16:44] <KaOSoFt> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2010/10/11/local-storage-and-how-to-use-it/
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  573. # [17:00] <smaug____> huh, chrome is switching to ws protocol v02
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  575. # [17:00] <smaug____> which is, I believe, very unstable
  576. # [17:01] <zcorpan> maybe they want to experiment with it in the dev channel?
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  578. # [17:02] <jgraham> Well it is kinda surprising. But they always claimed they would do this
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  580. # [17:02] <jgraham> So not all that surprising
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  582. # [17:02] <zcorpan> yeah i'm not surprised :)
  583. # [17:03] <jgraham> It will be interesting to see what effect it has, if any, on the adoption of websockets
  584. # [17:03] <zcorpan> i wonder what microsoft are doing
  585. # [17:03] <zcorpan> they reviewed -02
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  587. # [17:04] <jgraham> It will be intersting to see what they do in IE9
  588. # [17:05] <jgraham> If they do nothing they might just have to follow everyone in IE10
  589. # [17:05] <jgraham> Or they might not. Depends on how it plays out, really
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  600. # [17:25] <paul_irish> smaug____: got a link re: ws protocol v02 ?
  601. # [17:25] <annevk> see hybi email archives
  602. # [17:25] <annevk> claim by Ian Fette
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  605. # [17:29] <paul_irish> thx
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  610. # [17:48] <annevk> but per data from Peter` I guess that won't make it in before Chrome 8
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  621. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> hober: How do I get autodiscovery? I'll turn it on if I know how.
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  625. # [20:09] * Disconnected
  626. # [20:10] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  627. # [20:10] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  628. # [20:10] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  629. # [20:10] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  631. # [20:14] * mven wonders if your IE shirt comes holes or patches
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  639. # [20:27] * jwalden really wishes there were some IRC channel, or some other relatively low-lag forum, where people from all the major browsers/engines, hung out for quick technical discussion
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  641. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> jwalden: Dude, what?
  642. # [20:28] <jwalden> TabAtkins: I'm thinking of one specific engine, really
  643. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> Which is...?
  644. # [20:28] <jwalden> umm, IE?
  645. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> Okay then. So why does your desire for IE engineers to get on IRC result in you spamming the room with a generic request that seems to be satisfied by this very room?
  646. # [20:29] <jwalden> ...wait, you think that was spam?
  647. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> It was the second time you said it. ^_^
  648. # [20:29] <jwalden> oh, sorry
  649. # [20:29] <jwalden> I thought the first time I'd pinged out and it hadn't made its way to the channel
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  651. # [20:30] <jwalden> in my defense I checked http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20101012 to see whether it had made its way here, didn't see it
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  668. # [20:58] <peterhil> GPHemsley: The "New Web Code" and "Web [Markup] Language" bothers me too, but I think the article has a good point about the possibilities that providing 256 times larger storage than cookies for advertising networks IS going to be a privay issue.
  669. # [21:00] <peterhil> And the storage is an SQLite DB, which requires special tools or libraries to view or modify. I think users should have easy to use tools for managing the cookies and local storage databases.
  670. # [21:00] <peterhil> I think I'll make a tool, because the tracking cookies have also bothered me for a long time. The interface that for eg. Safari provides is not useful enough to really manage them
  671. # [21:02] <peterhil> I want to select cookies based on values or regexpes and remove or filter based on keywords aobut sites or values. And if the values are base64 I want the tool to decode them.
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  676. # [21:03] <peterhil> At least browser should ask the user if they want to allow different sites to store a database.
  677. # [21:03] <peterhil> I am very excited about the opportunities that local storage provides for web development, but I am also concerned about privacy issues.
  678. # [21:04] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.109)
  679. # [21:05] <Philip`> Why does the storage size matter? If you have, say, 8 bytes, then you can store a unique ID on the client and store arbitrary amounts of data on a server indexed by ID
  680. # [21:05] * peterhil have a SGI t-shirt with holes eaten by my little sister's hamster. ;-)
  681. # [21:06] <Philip`> Storing more data on the client doesn't seem any more privacy-violating
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  683. # [21:06] <peterhil> Philip`: It matters, because it will be easier to store long log of events about users. Think of it as a way to provide 1 user ID + 255 event IDs...
  684. # [21:07] <peterhil> I mean, it provides more opportunities for advertisers also, and you know they are creative people. :-)
  685. # [21:09] <Workshiva> Why would they store it on the client anyway? That info could get lost any time
  686. # [21:09] <Workshiva> All you need to store on the client is the identifying marker, so you know who to send data on behalf of
  687. # [21:10] <peterhil> The privacy issues by local storage may not be that different from cookies, but I think it is important that this issue is being discussed properly instead of just ridiculing the whole issue.
  688. # [21:10] <Philip`> I don't think anyone is ridiculing it
  689. # [21:12] <Workshiva> You shouldn't focus on the storage size, the "harder to remove" bit is more important
  690. # [21:12] <peterhil> I was going to end the last message with "instead of ridiculing a poor journalist trying to make sense of the new things about HTML 5."
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  692. # [21:14] <peterhil> Workshiva: I agree. The size may not be that important, but values in SQLite DBs are harder to remove and manage without proper tools.
  693. # [21:15] <Workshiva> Even so, I think browsers will offer good tools to clean out the new storage forms quickly enough
  694. # [21:15] <Workshiva> I'm more worried about flash sharedobjects (still)
  695. # [21:15] <peterhil> I just watched the Crockford Javascript Series and he makes some good points on part 6 about HTML5 worsening the XSS and some other security issues.
  696. # [21:16] <Workshiva> I'll refrain from discussing Crockford :)
  697. # [21:16] <peterhil> Me too - although they are sandboxed, but with Adobe's recent security track record it makes me worry a little. Just found them out on my computer.
  698. # [21:16] <peterhil> Ok. :_)
  699. # [21:17] <Hixie> peterhil: you'd think if he had good points he'd have mentioned them on the mailing list rather than keeping them to his talks. :-)
  700. # [21:18] <peterhil> I haven't watched the mailing lists. But it's a shame if it is so.
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  703. # [21:21] <peterhil> I learned the intricacies of encoding UTF-8 this summer, and it made me realize how there is a gazillion variations on how to encode, comment or escape data using different web and internet technologies, all bound or interwoven to the markup language used. So the only place to solve the problem is the markup language.
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  709. # [21:28] <peterhil> I mean you can't regexp for malicious code in base64 encoded data for example. Not to mention how to misencode information between language encodings and the Unicode. It let's you quite easily produce hard to detect malicious scripting tags, which can slip through form validation.
  710. # [21:31] <peterhil> Usually the scurity measures by frameworks prevent this, but there are a lot of misconfigured servers...
  711. # [21:32] <peterhil> And I haven't experimented how easy it is to make such script injections, but I believe I could easily make one if I wanted.
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  722. # [21:54] <jgraham> Umm, what makes the client side storage for cookies any more user-servicable than other storage mechanisms?
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  724. # [21:55] <jgraham> In either case the values on disk could be stored in any format you like (sqlite, mork, RDF, encrypted key-value pairs)
  725. # [21:56] <jgraham> You rely on the browser to provide a magement UI
  726. # [21:56] <jgraham> *management
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  728. # [21:58] <jgraham> I guess The SQL stuff lends itself more to a client side database for acceptable performance. But that need not be worse than the other formats
  729. # [21:58] <jgraham> And it is mostly defunct
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  731. # [22:02] <othermaciej> in some ways, storage or SQL are more restricted than cookies, since you need a browsing context from your origin to read or write
  732. # [22:02] <othermaciej> unlike cookies, where any resource load, even just an image, can read and write it in principle
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  778. # [23:25] <Hixie> annevk: so what are we doing for the non-visual scrollIntoView() stuff?
  779. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Would it be possible to get a WOFF reference into Acid3?
  780. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Like, replacing SVG Fonts or something?
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  782. # [23:27] <Hixie> if you got all the browser vendors to co-sign a publicly archived e-mail to me requesting that, and providing an example of what the new test would be, then sure
  783. # [23:27] <Hixie> but i'd much rather not change acid3
  784. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> I'm on it.
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  786. # [23:28] <Hixie> (get howcome to ok it too while you're at it)
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  788. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Out of curiousity, did you apply this criteria to the recent change about :visited?
  789. # [23:35] <Hixie> not the publicly archived part, but the change was much more minor
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  791. # [23:35] <Hixie> and could have been spun much worse
  792. # [23:35] <Hixie> ("acid3 forces browsers to violate user's privacy")
  793. # [23:36] <Hixie> here the spin danger is in the other direction ("acid3 author caves to pressure from microsoft, improves IE9's score by removing subtests already passed by other browsers")
  794. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> All right, but WOFF is the only font format that everyone actually agrees to support, as opposed to SVG Fonts, which some browsers have explicitly stated they *won't* support.
  795. # [23:37] <Hixie> Um, TrueType is already supported by everyone :-)
  796. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> Caves to pressure from WebFonts WG!
  797. # [23:37] <Hixie> (WOFF is a waste of time IMHO, given TrueType, but that's a side issue)
  798. # [23:37] <Hixie> i'm not disagreeing with you that we shouldn't have added SVG Fonts to the test
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  800. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Well, I'll get the WebFontsWG to request it. We've got everyone but Apple represented.
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  803. # [23:39] <Hixie> i don't think a wg should request it
  804. # [23:39] <Hixie> wgs requesting things is how we got into this problem in the first place
  805. # [23:39] <Hixie> just get the browser vendors to co-sign an e-mail
  806. # [23:40] <Hixie> (and howcome to agree)
  807. # [23:40] <Hixie> if there's actual support for this then it shouldn't be hard
  808. # [23:40] <Hixie> (personally i'm not convinced there is)
  809. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> It's easy to coordinate the action within the WG, simply because we have 4 browsers there. Including howcome.
  810. # [23:40] <zcorpan> opera doesn't support woff (yet)
  811. # [23:40] <Hixie> i don't mind where you talk about it, i just mean that the e-mail shouldn't mention the wg
  812. # [23:40] <Hixie> it's a PR thing
  813. # [23:42] <KaOSoFt> Arrggh, I really hate the multi-process safety measure of Chromium (Chrome).
  814. # [23:42] <KaOSoFt> Opera and Firefox work just as well, without that long list of processess.
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The end :)