/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-06-13 / end

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  47. # [03:27] <boblet> In links.html#other-link-types the spec mentions extensions to rel values can be added to the microformats.org wiki, inc. synonyms and status. Linked microformats.org table lacks synonyms and status columns in tables, although status is inferable
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  52. # [03:35] <boblet> how does http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Feb/att-0481/issue-118-decision.html affect links.html#link-types and links.html#other-link-types ?
  53. # [03:36] <boblet> aah, “Check-in comment: Drop support for rel=up, rel=last, rel=index, rel=first, and
  54. # [03:36] <boblet> any related synonyms.” somewhat less extensive than issue 118’s text
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  58. # [03:57] <boblet> hsivonen: are you planning to add support for the rel values mentioned on microformats.org wiki to validator.nu? e.g. edituri, canonical (POSH table), and index, start (other specs table)
  59. # [03:58] <boblet> hsivonen: alternatively would it be possible for validator-unknown rel values to be flagged as warnings rather than errors, since they may be valid?
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  107. # [07:42] <hsivonen> http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/157
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  118. # [08:33] <boblet> hsivonen: yt?
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  139. # [09:51] <hsivonen> boblet: here now
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  142. # [09:57] <boblet> hsivonen: I left some questions in chat about rel values and validator.nu about 6 hours ago, finding link now…
  143. # [09:57] <boblet> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20110613
  144. # [09:59] <hsivonen> boblet: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-June/032014.html
  145. # [10:00] <hsivonen> boblet: validator.nu considers the keywords that meet the registration requirements but aren't dropped HTML 4 link types as valid
  146. # [10:01] <hsivonen> boblet: that is, stuff from the HTML5 link type extensions table and non-HTML 4 stuff from the Formats table
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  148. # [10:01] <hsivonen> boblet: still trying to work out what the right thing to do is for the HTML 4 keywords that got dropped
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  151. # [10:02] <hsivonen> boblet: I suppose the keywords dropped by http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Feb/att-0481/issue-118-decision.html should be considered unregistrable
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  162. # [10:12] <hsivonen> oh the WG Decision explicitly allows registration of the dropped types
  163. # [10:12] <hsivonen> how is that useful?
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  166. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm not a big fan of "If a keyword is registered in the "proposed" state for a period of a month or more without being used or specified, then it may be removed from the registry."
  167. # [10:26] <hsivonen> I think it makes more sense to take specless proposals out immediately
  168. # [10:26] <hsivonen> (and allow the to be put back when someone bothers to come up with a spec liink)
  169. # [10:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: how would one discover that a keyword is not being used?
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  174. # [10:40] <hsivonen> looks like the geographic location meta keywords are a standardization failure
  175. # [10:41] <hsivonen> at least 3 different ways to say the same thing
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  178. # [11:02] <boblet> hsivonen: sorry for being afk and thanks for your feedback
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  183. # [11:15] <hsivonen> boblet: would you like to register a keyword that was in HTML 4 but isn't in HTML5?
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  194. # [11:58] <boblet> hsivonen: it’s more there are a bunch in WordPress or that we’ve accumulated in HTML5Doctor, and in investigating the situation it seems strange that there’s a process for adding these, but even if added they can be flagged as errors (vs warnings) by a validator
  195. # [11:59] <boblet> hsivonen: aware that validation is just a tool, most of them aren’t required etc. I’ll think over what you’ve written/linked to and give some feedback in a bit
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  234. # [14:03] <smaug____> the HTMLElement attribute <-> content attribute mapping is just strange
  235. # [14:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think the interesting thing from http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/meetings/2011-06-09 is that all their discussion starts "lets assume a person that wants to use RDFa…"
  236. # [14:03] <smaug____> but nothing new in HTML spec
  237. # [14:04] <jgraham> That suggests they won't be very successful in reexamining earlier ideas about simplification because their mental model is "lets assume that most users are just like me"
  238. # [14:05] <Dashiva> Anything in particular, smaug____, or just in general?
  239. # [14:07] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  240. # [14:07] <smaug____> in general.
  241. # [14:08] <smaug____> Setting element.contextMenu may magically set element's content attribute
  242. # [14:08] <matjas> What does “ISO 10646 characters U+00A0 and higher” mean exactly? Characters in the range \u000 – \uFFFF, or is that too limited?
  243. # [14:09] <smaug____> yet if the menu element is removed from DOM, the content attribute still has its ID as value
  244. # [14:09] <matjas> (Read that in the CSS spec — just asking here first.)
  245. # [14:10] <matjas> \u0000*
  246. # [14:10] <Dashiva> \u00A0 surely
  247. # [14:11] <smaug____> The spec really needs more reviewing
  248. # [14:11] <matjas> Dashiva: yeah, sorry :)
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  250. # [14:12] <matjas> but what would you guys consider the upper limit if that’s all the spec says?
  251. # [14:13] <Dashiva> I can't say for sure without reading it, but I would parse "ISO 10646 characters" to include code points above \uFFFF too
  252. # [14:18] <matjas> Dashiva: so up to \u10FFFF?
  253. # [14:19] <matjas> Dashiva: If you feel like reading: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/syndata.html#value-def-identifier
  254. # [14:23] <Dashiva> Yeah, I would say this confirms it: "the backslash is followed by at most six hexadecimal digits (0..9A..F), which stand for the ISO 10646 ([ISO10646]) character with that number"
  255. # [14:23] <Dashiva> "If the number is outside the range allowed by Unicode (e.g., "\110000" is above the maximum 10FFFF allowed in current Unicode)"
  256. # [14:24] <matjas> Dashiva: Thanks! I should’ve kept reading, I guess.
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  260. # [14:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah. assuming that Web authors want to use RDFa (or Microdata for that matter) is FAIL
  261. # [14:45] <hsivonen> Web authors don't care about your metadata framework
  262. # [14:46] <hsivonen> they care about their client's marketing dept requiring Facebook Like buttons
  263. # [14:46] <hsivonen> or doing SEO
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  265. # [14:50] * hsivonen finds out about w3schools Online Certification Program
  266. # [14:50] <hsivonen> $95 per certificate
  267. # [14:50] <hsivonen> that's so sad
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  271. # [15:07] <boblet> hsivonen: what’s sad is w3schools showing in the top of results when their info is often so crap (ref http://w3fools.com/ ), and the perception that they’re good or even _official_ among new coders b/c of the w3
  272. # [15:07] * Joins: cvn (~root@173.203.93.37)
  273. # [15:08] <hsivonen> boblet: yeah. I wonder how many bug reporting systems could use a "Please read http://w3fools.com/ before filing bugs." message
  274. # [15:10] <boblet> har! to be fair, they’ve fixed some of those, but still it’s pretty atrocious. The guy is def. in it solely for the ad revenue
  275. # [15:10] <hsivonen> I wonder when we are going to see the first meta or rel keyword registration that puts a w3schools URL in the spec column
  276. # [15:10] <hsivonen> boblet: "the guy"? I thought it was a whole family
  277. # [15:10] <boblet> sad when things like MDC are better and lower in the result list
  278. # [15:10] <Dashiva> So I'm thinking...
  279. # [15:11] <boblet> ohrly? heh, family enterprise eh
  280. # [15:11] <Dashiva> Since everyone in linked data hates DE lately, could we just get rid of DE in microdata and go back to centralized vocabularies only?
  281. # [15:11] <boblet> yay capitalism
  282. # [15:12] <boblet> Dashiva: kinda defeats the purpose of adding something to HTML5 to keep pro-extensible ppl happy
  283. # [15:12] <boblet> (not that it did, of course)
  284. # [15:13] <Dashiva> But they've made it clear they don't want it
  285. # [15:13] <hsivonen> Dashiva: what about DE in RDF?
  286. # [15:14] <boblet> for ppl without a religion microdata is pretty sweet tho
  287. # [15:15] <cvn> so it's official, i left the w3c html wg, not that i think i will be missed much as i hardly ever contributed anything anyway :)
  288. # [15:15] <cvn> but i'm not going to lie, i got rather pissed off after the thread re w3c/whatwg politics
  289. # [15:16] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Not like anyone ever uses it in the real world, they all use the same handful of vocabularies
  290. # [15:16] <cvn> i mean what is this crap re not being able to disguss this nonsense publicly, what is so "sensitive" about it
  291. # [15:18] <hsivonen> cvn: pissed off at whom?
  292. # [15:19] <cvn> hsivonen: nobody in particular, just this action of "oh there's politics, let's keep this off-list"
  293. # [15:19] <cvn> s/action/concept/
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  295. # [15:19] <cvn> if anything, people should discussing this nonsense out in the open
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  297. # [15:20] <cvn> atm from my perspective html is getting "forked"
  298. # [15:20] <Dashiva> Oddly enough, the people talking nonsense don't like doing it in public
  299. # [15:20] <cvn> s/forked/borked/ - either would work
  300. # [15:20] <smaug____> Ms2ger: volkmar: does something in the spec specify what "first img element descendant of the element" mean?
  301. # [15:20] <cvn> Dashiva: yeah i guess... figures :)
  302. # [15:21] <hsivonen> cvn: who do you see as doing the forking?
  303. # [15:21] <smaug____> Ms2ger: volkmar: I assume document order, but can't be sure...
  304. # [15:21] <cvn> hsivonen: that's a very good question, i actually don't know
  305. # [15:21] <cvn> who has "claim" to html - whatwg or w3c?
  306. # [15:22] <cvn> imho it's an internet standard and belongs to the global general public, not to anyone
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  308. # [15:22] <hsivonen> cvn: I think the power game is detrimental
  309. # [15:23] <cvn> exactly
  310. # [15:23] <cvn> i mean c'mon, can't we just kiss and make up, seriously
  311. # [15:23] <Dashiva> HTML5 happened because reality didn't listen to the claims of ownership
  312. # [15:23] <hsivonen> cvn: as I see it, part of the revert requests and issues are attempts to demonstrate some kind of W3C process power
  313. # [15:23] <hsivonen> (how dare anyone write anything about accessibility without consulting the WAI?)
  314. # [15:23] <cvn> this is where company / individual agenda starts to negatively affect the state of human being :)
  315. # [15:24] <cvn> the w3c is still the same as always - it's a bureaucracy
  316. # [15:24] <hsivonen> cvn: and then Hixie refuses to apply even trivial changes to the WHATWG copy--presumably in order to avoid giving in to the power demonstration of steve et al. and to avoid going on a slippery slope to more and more compromise
  317. # [15:24] <Dashiva> hsivonen: wwic? :)
  318. # [15:25] <volkmar> smaug____: i don't know of any definition of this on top of my head but i would assume tree order
  319. # [15:25] <cvn> cvn: yeah this is where all logic has left the building :)
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  321. # [15:25] <Dashiva> TabAtkins_, re: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12849 someone was asking about that same thing because webkit was displaying thousands separators with type=number
  322. # [15:26] <cvn> aargh mant to type hsivonen, not talk to myself lol
  323. # [15:26] <cvn> freudian slip
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  325. # [15:26] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I think there might be a certain amount of WWIC going on in the WAI relationship, yeah
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  327. # [15:27] <smaug____> volkmar: just assuming something when reading a spec feels wrong :)
  328. # [15:27] <smaug____> but ok, I'll file a bug
  329. # [15:27] <volkmar> smaug____: plz, CC me :)
  330. # [15:27] <cvn> ok i'm off, just came in here to gripe apparently :)
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  335. # [15:33] <Dashiva> cvn: I imagine your stress levels will be going down after leaving the group
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  337. # [15:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12935 - "If we only did what Hixie said, we'd lose implicit closing of rb and rp in the
  338. # [15:36] <zcorpan> simple Ruby case." - not AFAICT, since "generate implied end tags" closes rb and rp
  339. # [15:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i'm not convinced there's a need to aggressively pop stuff inside <ruby>
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  341. # [15:38] * Dashiva laughs at w3c being compared to the UN as if it's a good thing
  342. # [15:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: oh. that's worth saying on the bug
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  344. # [15:40] <zcorpan> done
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  351. # [15:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
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  353. # [15:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: iirc old ie didn't do aggressive popping
  354. # [15:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok
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  368. # [16:27] <zcorpan> jgraham: it was a design mistake to put the description last in test(func, desc)
  369. # [16:28] <zcorpan> jgraham: since i want to read the description before reading the test block
  370. # [16:33] <Philip`> Change it to accept both argument orders, by checking the types
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  381. # [16:46] <jgraham> zcorpan: The idea is sort of that desc is optional. That might itself be a mistake ofc
  382. # [16:47] <jgraham> Philip`: That way lies badness I think. AT least where I already did things like that I later wished I hadn't
  383. # [16:48] <zcorpan> jgraham: being optional makes sense if there's only one test
  384. # [16:49] <zcorpan> it's not a biggie, it's just that i need to jump back and forth when reviewing a testsuite
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  396. # [17:40] <smaug____> Hixie: ping
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  398. # [17:47] <smaug____> or anyone. how does one trigger an Action (other than using an access key)?
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  402. # [17:59] <Dashiva> smaug____: Depends on the command it's tied to. Click a link, select a menu item, etc.
  403. # [17:59] <smaug____> Dashiva: and where is that defined?
  404. # [18:00] <smaug____> there is also non-normative text that calling element.click() triggers the action, but I couldn't find any normative text
  405. # [18:03] <Dashiva> 3.2.5.1.7 Interactive content covers click activation
  406. # [18:04] <Dashiva> 4.11.5 Commands is also relevant
  407. # [18:05] <smaug____> I couldn't find the definition for triggering a command
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  410. # [18:05] <smaug____> 3.2.5.1.7 is clear
  411. # [18:06] <smaug____> but it isn't about commands
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  413. # [18:08] <Dashiva> Oh, I see what you mean
  414. # [18:09] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
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  416. # [18:10] <Dashiva> Apart from click() I think it's up to the UA to expose commands
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  418. # [18:12] <smaug____> if that is the case, it sure should be said somewhere
  419. # [18:13] <Dashiva> Yeah, a come-from table would be useful instead of just having gotos elsewhere
  420. # [18:15] <smaug____> especially because the gotos end up to /dev/null
  421. # [18:16] <Dashiva> Hm?
  422. # [18:16] <smaug____> I mean, things aren't specified properly
  423. # [18:16] <smaug____> I assume commands part of the spec hasn't been reviewed yet
  424. # [18:17] <Dashiva> The commands part defines commands. Other parts of the spec use commands, those define how they invoke commands.
  425. # [18:17] <smaug____> (I'm just reviewing a patch implementing it and I need to understand what the commands is about)
  426. # [18:17] <Dashiva> E.g. the accesskey section defines and invokes a command
  427. # [18:17] <smaug____> (so far few bugs found in the spec)
  428. # [18:24] <jgraham> smaug____: The reality is that the spec gets well reviewed when people first implement it
  429. # [18:25] <smaug____> jgraham: indeed
  430. # [18:25] <jgraham> It seems that you just won (lost) on this occasion
  431. # [18:25] <smaug____> and in some cases not even when implementing :p
  432. # [18:25] <jgraham> Yeah :(
  433. # [18:27] <smaug____> I haven't actually implemented too much of HTML, but I've reviewed quite a bit code implementing it. And reviewing that code tend to be quite slow since one needs to first review the relevant parts of the spec, file spec bugs, get them fixed and then also review the actual code
  434. # [18:29] <jgraham> I am currently sitting in the same room as people doing that for a different part of the spec, so I sympathise with the situation :)
  435. # [18:29] <smaug____> But I'm a bit worried that only implementors review the spec
  436. # [18:29] <smaug____> we should get web devs to look at it too
  437. # [18:29] <jgraham> Well authors only care about things that are implemented
  438. # [18:29] <jgraham> So there is a problem there
  439. # [18:30] <smaug____> but we might get some silly feature implemented which no one will use
  440. # [18:30] <jgraham> And authors who care about things that aren't yet implemented tend to become implementors rather quickly
  441. # [18:30] <smaug____> :)
  442. # [18:31] <jgraham> smaug____: Yeah, there is some responsibility for implementors to push back on features they think won't be used
  443. # [18:31] <jgraham> Which means that you have to listen to your users and the wider community and so on
  444. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> Ideally, the "formulate use-cases that actually exist" step of proposing new features involves talking to web authors.
  445. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> Or being one.
  446. # [18:39] * TabAtkins_ is now known as TabAtkins
  447. # [18:40] * Joins: esc_ (~esc-ape@75.inst-3.ufg.ac.at)
  448. # [18:42] <Dashiva> Well, it's not like we're inventing features out of whole cloth
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  452. # [18:45] <Ms2ger> Oh?
  453. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> I don't use half-cloth in my designs, that's for sure.
  454. # [18:52] * jgraham only invents features out of whole goth
  455. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> Too bad gsnedders isn't in the office anymore, then.
  456. # [18:53] <jgraham> We sent him away to replenish his gothness
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  458. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> This is great: http://whereswalden.com/2011/02/03/working-on-the-js-engine-episode-iv/
  459. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> Yeah, Mozilla people usually are :)
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  463. # [19:22] <oal> In html5, am I allowed to invent my own html attributes? like <div help="This is..."></div>?
  464. # [19:22] <oal> And use that data from javscript?
  465. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> oal: Yes, but you have to prefix them with "data-". So <div data-help="This is..."></div>
  466. # [19:23] <oal> TabAtkins: aha, clever! Thank you very much :)
  467. # [19:23] <oal> Makes it easier to see what's my attributes vs traditional attributes
  468. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> Exactly. Any data-* attribute is just private script data you're attaching to DOM nodes for convenience, rather than holding in pure javascript.
  469. # [19:24] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  470. # [19:25] <oal> :)
  471. # [19:28] <AryehGregor> Also, in newer browsers you have a convenient way to access the data, like div.dataset.help = 'foo' instead of div.setAttribute("data-help", "foo").
  472. # [19:30] <oal> The future of the web looks bright with all the new html5, css3 and js apis :)
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  484. # [19:53] <scor> mpilgrim: http://schema.org/person and http://schema.org/address should be upper case in http://diveintohtml5.org/extensibility.html
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  493. # [20:14] <oal> Is it ok to wrap a label around an input like <label><input /></label> or should you use <label for="idOfInput">...</label>?
  494. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> The former is perfectly fine, and is way easier when your markup structure allows it.
  495. # [20:16] <oal> Yup, agreed :)
  496. # [20:21] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  497. # [20:23] * AryehGregor likes how this credit card application form doesn't use autocomplete=false on the SSN field
  498. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> Add it with your devtools? :)
  499. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> I've never used autocomplete=false. :/
  500. # [20:24] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.21.20)
  501. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, you don't write bank websites, I hope.
  502. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> No, but I have written sites that ask for CC info.
  503. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> And you didn't use autocomplete=false? Isn't that kind of thing required for whatever certification you need to accept credit cards online?
  504. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> Presumably not?
  505. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Or do they just require HTTPS so that you get the little lock icon and your users feel secure and don't blame the site when their credit card info is stolen?
  506. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> Likely that.
  507. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> W3Schools certification, you mean? :)
  508. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> I dunno, I never read any certification requirements.
  509. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> The site as a whole was pretty shitty code in retrospect, but it was very good for me at the time.
  510. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/
  511. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> Nice, the official PCI site includes mixed content and gets the little red cross-out thing in Chrome.
  512. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> Interestingly, that site has mixed content warnings.
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  514. # [20:31] <zewt> firefox "helpfully" remembers my credit card number all the time, i'm always deleting it. heh
  515. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/documents/pa-dss_v2.pdf
  516. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> It looks like nothing says you should prevent client-side caching of sensitive data.
  517. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> At least glancing at the ToC.
  518. # [20:33] <zewt> there's also the regional ... either gas or electric company's website, which uses some hidden Flash thing to log in "securely", and the actual login page shows up as HTTP
  519. # [20:33] <AryehGregor> It does require encryption.
  520. # [20:33] <zewt> always nice to batch-train people to ignore HTTPS ...
  521. # [20:33] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: my browser already remembers my paypal password. surely it would be nice for it to remember my credit card number, too
  522. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> My browser doesn't remember my bank password or Google password.
  523. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> At least with passwords, it asks you before remembering them.
  524. # [20:34] <zewt> firefox always remembers the wrong Google password for me; no matter how many times I reenter it, it never offers to update it. heh
  525. # [20:34] <hsivonen> my browser doesn't remember my bank passcodes, because they are different on each login
  526. # [20:34] <zewt> i should just edit the database directly or whatever to convince it to update
  527. # [20:36] * hsivonen could use a way to edit the remembered form data in Firefox
  528. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> This standard actually seems pretty reasonable.
  529. # [20:36] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.104.92) (Quit: othermaciej)
  530. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, sqlite on command line?
  531. # [20:36] * AryehGregor has used that sometimes
  532. # [20:37] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: not really the ideal UI
  533. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> Is it defined somewhere in the spec that DOM trees are by default sorted in document order, so that statements about "select the first X" are unambiguous?
  534. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> Well, not for changing individual rows, no.
  535. # [20:37] * Joins: cvn (~root@173-203-93-37.static.cloud-ips.com)
  536. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I make that explicit in the edit commands spec, but I dunno if it's clear elsewhere.
  537. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> "When a list or set of nodes is assigned to a variable without specifying the order, they must be initially in tree order, if they share a root. (If they don't share a root, the order will be specified.) When the user agent is instructed to run particular steps for each member of a list, it must do so sequentially in the list's order."
  538. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> That more or less covers it, I think.
  539. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Although really, I don't think any implementers are going to be confused here.
  540. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> Right, but still, best not to leave things undefined when we can define them.
  541. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Clearly I agree, which is why I defined it. :)
  542. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Capital One's website also doesn't allow "special characters" in the street address, which includes periods.
  543. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> No "Ave." for me.
  544. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> I usually write it as "Ave" anyway.
  545. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> Unrelated: WUT 11:26 < AryehGregor> https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/
  546. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> Shit, wrong one.
  547. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> Unrelated: WUT http://i.imgur.com/lxlJf.gif
  548. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> There we go.
  549. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> Looks totally Photoshopped.
  550. # [20:42] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:149:f01:201:b08a:5c38:76d3:eb76)
  551. # [20:43] <TabAtkins> I can see the pixels.
  552. # [20:44] <zewt> among my favorites was a site with a phone number entry that I pasted into, which proceeded to paste "(123) 456-" into their "1234567890" field skipping their broken validation, and then it wouldn't let me backspace over the entry (because the intermediate backspaced data failed the validation and cancelled the input)
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  554. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> That kind of validation is great.
  555. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> I'm waiting for HTML5 form inputs to catch on.
  556. # [20:51] <zewt> not much hope for that ... "tier" of developers ever using something sane, though
  557. # [20:52] <Ms2ger> OTOH, lazyness might make them use WF2
  558. # [20:52] <AryehGregor> zewt, they will if it's easier.
  559. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Ooh, the site also has required security questions.
  560. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> I have to pick three questions to give the answers to, out of five choices.
  561. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Of the five choices they offer, one makes no sense, I have no idea what the answer is to another, and the other three would be really easy for anyone to find out (or in some cases guess).
  562. # [20:55] <zewt> because security is about having lots of powerpoint slides to show the CEO, even if it's worse than nothing and cripplingly inconvenient for users
  563. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Yep.
  564. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Which is why mandatory security standards are often good, because you have some slight hope that the people who write them aren't complete idiots.
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  566. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> (I mean, mandatory for things like bank sites)
  567. # [20:55] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@203.210.207.188) (Quit: Leaving.)
  568. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> My approach is to fill in the answers with "cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd ' -~' | head -c 20; echo" and record the answers in a file on my home directory.
  569. # [20:58] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
  570. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> Please enter a valid answer using only letters, numbers spaces & special characters -'.,&@:?!()$#/\ .
  571. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> Because that makes it much more secure. Sigh.
  572. # [21:02] * Hixie peeks in
  573. # [21:03] <Ms2ger> Evening
  574. # [21:08] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:149:4:401:18e0:d49e:e729:cde5)
  575. # [21:09] <scor> Hixie: I summarized the microdata multitype conversation we had last week, maybe the examples I use there will make more sense? http://openspring.net/blog/2011/06/10/microdata-multiple-vocabularies
  576. # [21:11] <scor> of course any feedback or correction on what I said in this post are more than welcome!
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  579. # [21:17] <jgraham> Someone should fix the planet.mozilla.org software to close out all the elements from each blog post before starting the next one
  580. # [21:17] <Ms2ger> That's to annoy people who use Opera
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  582. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> What's the issue, a parser difference?
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  584. # [21:19] * jgraham was reding it in Firefox s it happens :)
  585. # [21:19] <jgraham> add "a" liberally
  586. # [21:20] <jgraham> In Opera it works fine...
  587. # [21:22] <jgraham> Hmm, it also work in Chrome
  588. # [21:22] <jgraham> That is quite strange
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  592. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: The correct answer to security questions is always another password.
  593. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, yes.
  594. # [21:32] <jgraham> Oh. It is being parsed as text/html in Gecko and application/xhtml+xml elsewhere
  595. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Weird, why?
  596. # [21:35] <Hixie> scor: i don't really understand what problem any of the annotations are solving for you, so it's hard for me to make a recommendation
  597. # [21:35] <Hixie> scor: i mean, why doesn't omitting all microdata work equally well?
  598. # [21:36] <Hixie> oops, got the wrong annotation on the last checkin
  599. # [21:36] <Hixie> crap
  600. # [21:36] <scor> Hixie: omitting all md means no structured data
  601. # [21:36] <Hixie> scor: right
  602. # [21:36] <Hixie> scor: why isn't that good enough for you?
  603. # [21:36] <Hixie> scor: what are you using this data for?
  604. # [21:37] <scor> Hixie: I'm not using this data, I'm only publishing it, hoping others will use it
  605. # [21:37] <scor> Hixie: I'm only a publisher, not a consumer
  606. # [21:38] <scor> but there can be many different consumers which might not agree on a given schema/vocab (e.g. currently google and facebook)
  607. # [21:38] <Hixie> ok well if you're just hoping someone will use it, odds are very good that nobody is using it
  608. # [21:38] <scor> publishers should have the right to use different vocab
  609. # [21:38] <Hixie> so i would save yourself a lot of time and not bother
  610. # [21:38] <scor> Hixie: well, that's just because you don't believe in structured data :)
  611. # [21:39] <Hixie> i don't _believe_ in anything
  612. # [21:39] <Hixie> structured data is not special in this :-)
  613. # [21:39] <scor> Hixie: but I think I understand where your confusion was coming from, you assumed I was buliding some app on top of that data
  614. # [21:39] <scor> I see
  615. # [21:39] <scor> but the publisher and the consumers are decoupled
  616. # [21:39] <Hixie> microdata is intended for concrete uses, yes, not hypothetical hopeful uses :-)
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  619. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> scor, generally HTML5 and related things are developed on the basis of concrete use-cases. That means things that people directly and tangibly benefit from. Without use-cases, we can't evaluate whether a proposed feature or change is worth the effort to implement it.
  620. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> If you're just putting up the data and don't have reason to believe anyone will use it, then there are no grounds for us to judge the usefulness of your proposed changes relative to other changes we could make for the same effort.
  621. # [21:42] <scor> AryehGregor, Hixie I see your points re concrete use cases
  622. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Or really, there's no grounds for us to believe that your proposed changes are useful at all.
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  624. # [21:44] <scor> zcorpan: seen this? summarizes the situation re the snippet you gave me the other day: http://openspring.net/blog/2011/06/10/microdata-multiple-vocabularies
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  633. # [22:00] <zcorpan> scor: hadn't seen it
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  673. # [23:07] * jgraham hadn't seen http://www.w3.org/2010/12/community/summary before
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  675. # [23:09] <karlcow> jgraham: seeAlso http://www.w3.org/QA/2011/04/coming_soon_w3c_community_grou.html
  676. # [23:09] * jgraham wonders what would have happened if in 2004 someone had proposed a community group to work on HTML...
  677. # [23:10] <zcorpan> what happens if we propose a community group to work on HTML today?
  678. # [23:10] <jgraham> Because WHATWG sounds an awful lot like a "community group"
  679. # [23:10] * Quits: othermaciej_ (~mjs@17.246.18.121) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  680. # [23:10] <karlcow> it's an evolution.
  681. # [23:11] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:149:4:401:a57f:4609:83e0:dc85)
  682. # [23:11] <karlcow> it helps answer a need that w3c was not able to answer in 2004.
  683. # [23:13] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Now time for the weather. Tiffany?)
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  686. # [23:15] <jgraham> karlcow: I expect the W3C would not want a community group competing with a ordinary WG
  687. # [23:16] <jgraham> It doesn't say anywhere that they will accept all submissions
  688. # [23:17] <karlcow> jgraham: I believe in quite the opposite. The community group, for me, is here to leave a possibility of exploring a topic.
  689. # [23:17] <karlcow> Member submissions have been traditionally been very open, but reserved to members.
  690. # [23:18] <karlcow> Community group is more open, so it is quite cool to see that development.
  691. # [23:18] <karlcow> It gives an interesting avenue for discussing things, hacking, etc. It's quite cool.
  692. # [23:18] <jgraham> Oh, I'm not saying it is bad
  693. # [23:19] <zcorpan> i wonder if the Business Group thing is going to be used
  694. # [23:19] <karlcow> I prefer to look at it as a tool and trying it and we will see how far the rest of W3C communities react to it.
  695. # [23:19] <karlcow> learning from each other
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  698. # [23:20] <jgraham> But until it happens, I will remain skeptical that communiy groups will be allowed to compete with W3C blue riband technologies
  699. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> s/riband/ribbon/?
  700. # [23:20] <karlcow> zcorpan: business group, this one is less clear to me.
  701. # [23:20] <karlcow> there was 3 competing solutions for SVG ancestors
  702. # [23:20] <jgraham> TabAtkins: No, I think I was right
  703. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> riband Noun: A ribbon
  704. # [23:21] <jgraham> Although wikipedia says that people use "blue ribbon" now
  705. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> Hm, never heard that word before.
  706. # [23:21] <jgraham> But then people now say things like "here here"
  707. # [23:21] * Joins: cying (~cying@173-13-176-101-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  708. # [23:21] <jgraham> Which is just bizarre
  709. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> All the uses of riband I see from a quick search are uk.
  710. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Idioms and homophones don't mix well, ever.
  711. # [23:22] <jgraham> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Riband_%28disambiguation%29
  712. # [23:22] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/Submission/1998/08/
  713. # [23:22] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/Submission/1998/06/
  714. # [23:22] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-HGML-19980619
  715. # [23:23] <jgraham> karlcow: There is a difference between an ancestor to a successful technology and a competitor
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  717. # [23:24] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  718. # [23:24] * karlcow doesn't understand how it relates to community groups
  719. # [23:24] <jgraham> TabAtkins: But they use it to mean "listen to this opinion". It is hard for me to understand how it is possible to get confused
  720. # [23:24] <karlcow> ooh diving into the archives, I find again Privacy and Profiling on the Web http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-Web-privacy.html
  721. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> jgraham: "hear hear" doesn't necessarily mean "listen to this opinion". It's just a general note of assent, at least to me. So it's easy for me to see how the spelling slips.
  722. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Plus, the archais use of "hear" as a command to listen to someone else doesn't exactly help. That's why it's an idiom.
  723. # [23:27] <jgraham> So, what I was actually going to say is "it's unclear to me how a group of three search engines constitutes a monopoly" (re: http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/157)
  724. # [23:28] <jgraham> In particular the "mono" part
  725. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Mono-industry, from how I understand the objection.
  726. # [23:31] <zcorpan> Oligopoly
  727. # [23:32] <jgraham> Yes, I think that's what she means. I guess "group of most significant vendors worked together to reach a compromise they could all implement" doesn't sound as scary as "monopoly foists their technology on the world"
  728. # [23:33] <jgraham> Although the first is how most standards organisations work too (although people keep getting upset by that as well)
  729. # [23:34] * jgraham notes that he doesn't disagree with much of the blog entry, but thinks it is framed in a very misleading way
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  731. # [23:35] <zcorpan> jgraham: just when you thought you were done, Hixie changes the parser :P
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  733. # [23:36] <Hixie> blame bz :-P
  734. # [23:36] <Hixie> wait, he can even blame you!
  735. # [23:36] <Hixie> :-P
  736. # [23:36] <jgraham> Wait what?
  737. # [23:36] <zcorpan> i think i suggested this change long ago
  738. # [23:36] <jgraham> I am entirely blameless
  739. # [23:36] <Hixie> no i mean zcorpan
  740. # [23:36] <jgraham> Oh yeah blame zcorpan
  741. # [23:37] <jgraham> He is evil
  742. # [23:37] * Hixie would be fine not making this change
  743. # [23:37] <zcorpan> i blame Hixie for not fixing this first time
  744. # [23:37] * jgraham thinks this not being fixed straight away would not be the most important bug with Opera and ruby...
  745. # [23:38] * karlcow recommends jgraham to send an email to Ian Jacobs
  746. # [23:38] <jgraham> (although I guess it is easy enough to fix)
  747. # [23:38] <zcorpan> jgraham: what? it's VIOLATING the spec
  748. # [23:39] <jgraham> zcorpan: So is not rendering any ruby :)
  749. # [23:39] <zcorpan> jgraham: nah, only if you want the rendering section to apply to you
  750. # [23:40] <Hixie> not rendering a ruby is only violating the spec if you self-identify as a "visual user agent that supports the suggested default rendering"
  751. # [23:40] <jgraham> Not supporting the parser is only violating the spec if you self-identify as a HTML UA
  752. # [23:40] * jgraham had this discussion in reverse with Hixie already :)
  753. # [23:41] <Hixie> opera does self-identify as a web browser
  754. # [23:41] <zcorpan> ah, i remember now, this is how the xml guys got away with what the xml spec says
  755. # [23:41] <zcorpan> Hixie: not only!
  756. # [23:42] <Dashiva> Opera only self-identifies as a browser when it isn't parsing
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  758. # [23:43] <Hixie> Dashiva: i don't think the spec allows that
  759. # [23:43] <zcorpan> why not?
  760. # [23:43] <Dashiva> Opera doesn't self-identify as the class of implementations that isn't allowed to change self-identification
  761. # [23:44] <smaug____> ooh, I found the place which triggers command's action
  762. # [23:44] <jgraham> I'm reasonably sure that we don't really sel identify as anything
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  765. # [23:44] <jgraham> In fact there is probably text somewhre saying that we don't promise to be fit for any purpose
  766. # [23:44] <smaug____> click() handling is still strange though
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  769. # [23:45] <smaug____> Hixie: why does click() have different behavior than dispatching a click event manually?
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  773. # [23:46] <smaug____> both need to dispatch untrusted events
  774. # [23:48] <Hixie> smaug____: click() is equivalent to dispatching the event manually and then providing a default action
  775. # [23:49] <smaug____> Hixie: but why? Why doesn't dispatching click trigger the default handling (in cases we want to allow that to happen with untrusted events)
  776. # [23:49] <Hixie> smaug____: the default handling is, by definition, the handling that occurs when you get back the result of dispatching the event
  777. # [23:50] <smaug____> yes
  778. # [23:50] <smaug____> well, not results
  779. # [23:50] <Hixie> yes, the results
  780. # [23:50] <Hixie> the return value of dispatchEvent()
  781. # [23:50] <smaug____> default handling is the final step of event dispatch
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  783. # [23:50] <Hixie> no
  784. # [23:50] <smaug____> huh
  785. # [23:51] <zewt> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dispatching-events
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  788. # [23:53] <smaug____> zewt: not sure what that link has to do
  789. # [23:53] <zewt> it, uh, explains event dispatch pretty succinctly
  790. # [23:53] <smaug____> zewt: nothing to do with default handling
  791. # [23:54] <zewt> exactly, default handling is not part of event dispatch :)
  792. # [23:54] <Hixie> default handling is what you do when an event you've dispatched is not cancelled
  793. # [23:54] <smaug____> exactly
  794. # [23:54] <smaug____> well, ok, if it is a script based event one could check the return value of dispatchEvent
  795. # [23:54] <zewt> is what *you* do (the code calling for the dispatch), not what the dispatch itself does
  796. # [23:55] <smaug____> in most common cases, browsers do the default handling, not scripts
  797. # [23:56] <Hixie> sure
  798. # [23:56] <Hixie> still not part of the dispatch :-)
  799. # [23:56] <smaug____> well, it kind of is
  800. # [23:56] <Hixie> in so far as it isn't
  801. # [23:56] <Hixie> :-P
  802. # [23:56] <zewt> let's run in circles some more
  803. # [23:56] <smaug____> since default handling can depend on event target chain
  804. # [23:57] <Hixie> not sure what that means
  805. # [23:57] <Hixie> do you have an example?
  806. # [23:57] <smaug____> you have nested elements, and topmost is <a>.
  807. # [23:57] <smaug____> the event is dispatched to some descendant
  808. # [23:57] <smaug____> but it is the a's default handling which may be triggered
  809. # [23:58] <Hixie> sure, but that's decided before the dispatch is started
  810. # [23:58] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/content-models.html#interactive-content-0
  811. # [23:58] <Hixie> it's decided in step 1
  812. # [23:58] <Hixie> event is dispatched in step 3
  813. # [23:58] * smaug____ needs to look at if webkit's event dispatch has changed, but at least in gecko there is PostHandleEvent phase after actual DOM event dispatch
  814. # [23:58] <smaug____> and webkit used to have it too
  815. # [23:59] <Hixie> browsers do all kinds of weird things
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  818. # Session Close: Tue Jun 14 00:00:00 2011

The end :)