/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 19 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> Hey, someone else actually was using the Live DOM Viewer upload/download feature at the same time as me. That's a first.
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  8. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Did you collide?
  9. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's how I knew.
  10. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> Can anyone explain to me why the www-html list still exists?
  11. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Looks like just the older version of public-html, from before we switched list naming standards. Dunno why it's still open.
  12. # [00:27] <Philip`> I think the switch to public-html was primarily to ensure subscribers agreed to the patent policy
  13. # [00:27] <Philip`> (since those already on www-html hadn't)
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  15. # [00:28] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i assume you collided with my window.find() thing, sorry :-)
  16. # [00:29] <Hixie> also, window.find() is incredibly buggy
  17. # [00:29] <Hixie> well, not incredibly
  18. # [00:29] <Hixie> but it has six boolean arguments and of those, only one works the same in gecko and webkit
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  20. # [00:31] <jamesr> i only use the upload/download feature when i am trying to get a permalink and forget which link it is to do that
  21. # [00:31] <jamesr> which is pretty much every time i try to get a permalink
  22. # [00:31] <Philip`> Isn't it the link that says "permalink"?
  23. # [00:32] <Hixie> i think he means the short permalink
  24. # [00:32] <Hixie> which is "save"
  25. # [00:32] <jamesr> right, that one
  26. # [00:32] <Philip`> Ah
  27. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> I use it constantly when testing among multiple browsers.
  28. # [00:32] <Hixie> yeah me too
  29. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> Particularly since one of them is on a different computer.
  30. # [00:32] <Hixie> indeed
  31. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Although it seems like in IE9 and IE10, "download" only works once until you restart the browser.
  32. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> At least on my machine.
  33. # [00:33] <Hixie> actually my first implementation of the upload/download thing was for a clipboard on my portal page
  34. # [00:33] <Hixie> IE's wacked
  35. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> If you hit it a second time, it just re-downloads the same thing it did last time. No idea why.
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  37. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Also, the permalinks don't work in IE or Chrome because they're XSS. :(
  38. # [00:33] <Hixie> it wants different cache flags, i expect
  39. # [00:33] <Hixie> the whole tool is a giant XSS :-P
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  41. # [00:34] <jamesr> Hixie: send the XSS header then!
  42. # [00:34] <Hixie> the XSS header is lame
  43. # [00:34] <Hixie> and unspecified
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  45. # [00:35] <Hixie> i may one day switch to base64-encoding the payload
  46. # [00:35] <Hixie> but i'm in no rush
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  49. # [00:36] <Hixie> so for window.find()
  50. # [00:36] <Hixie> should i only specify what's interoperable, or should i specify the superset and just call every implementation buggy?
  51. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> Specify the subset that's either interoperable or useful.
  52. # [00:36] <Hixie> not clear any of it is useful
  53. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Then just the part that's interoperable, I'd say.
  54. # [00:37] <Hixie> and no subset it is 100% interoperable
  55. # [00:37] <Hixie> of it
  56. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Your work is done, then.
  57. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Well, then make something up. :)
  58. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> I mean, no subset of execCommand() is 100% interoperable, that's for sure . . .
  59. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Also, this is a horrible function and I hate everyone involved in the creation of it.
  60. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> Wow, it only returns a boolean? I'd have thought it would at least return the location of the first occurrence.
  61. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> That seems profoundly useless.
  62. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it seems completely useless.
  63. # [00:39] <Hixie> it selects the match
  64. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see.
  65. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> That's . . . also amazingly useless.
  66. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Ah, MDN doesn't mention that.
  67. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Can you query for what parts of the document are selected?
  68. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> getSelection()?
  69. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> kk, wasn't sure.
  70. # [00:40] <jamesr> is it used?
  71. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> So I guess that'll return a disconnected selection if there are multiple matches.
  72. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> If you couldn't, I wouldn't have had much to do for the last six months. :)
  73. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> I imagine it would just select the first match.
  74. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> Or the first one after the current selection.
  75. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> Like Ctrl-F.
  76. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> Although that doesn't actually select anything.
  77. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Well, my ctrl+f selects all the matches, and then scrolls to the first.
  78. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> It doesn't select them, it highlights them, no?
  79. # [00:41] <Hixie> window.find() selects the first match after the cursor position
  80. # [00:43] <AryehGregor> Apparently someone named Tim Powell used window.find() for bookmarklets as of 2001: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9550#c14
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  83. # [00:44] <Hixie> the only reason i'm even looking at this is i got some feedback from oepra saying they're getting feedback from developers asking for it
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  87. # [00:45] <Hixie> in Gecko, window.find() pops up a dialog
  88. # [00:45] <Hixie> but Ctrl+F pops up an inline find bar
  89. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> This all sounds amazingly horrible even by web standards standards.
  90. # [00:46] <Hixie> these two find UIs in gecko have different features...
  91. # [00:46] <Hixie> (neither is a subset of the other)
  92. # [00:47] <Hixie> wow
  93. # [00:48] <Hixie> i got gecko's to fail with NS_ERROR_INVALID_POINTER
  94. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> This sounds like a feature everyone has forgotten about for ten years.
  95. # [00:49] <smaug____> window.find() is find, ctrl+f is typeaheadfind
  96. # [00:49] <smaug____> who uses window.find() anymore?
  97. # [00:49] <Hixie> i don't understand why when i make it pop up the dialog, it comes prepopulated with "cat" as teh search string
  98. # [00:49] <Hixie> smaug____: can we drop support for it? that would make my life way easier.
  99. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Presuambly that's the last thing you searched for, Hixie?
  100. # [00:49] <Hixie> TabAtkins: no
  101. # [00:50] <smaug____> Hixie: dropping window.find(). Yes please.
  102. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> It seemed likely.
  103. # [00:50] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i searched for any number of other things, but every time the dialog comes back, it says "cat"
  104. # [00:50] <Hixie> smaug____: any idea who makes the call on this?
  105. # [00:50] <smaug____> I just wonder if it is possible to drop support for that
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  107. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Mine doesn't do that, so shrug.
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  111. # [00:51] <Hixie> TabAtkins: oh i'm sure it's something i did
  112. # [00:52] <Hixie> wow my gecko is seriously messed up now
  113. # [00:52] <Hixie> every time i call it with a non-empty first argument, i get this pointer exception
  114. # [00:52] <jamesr> sounds like you need to restart
  115. # [00:52] <Hixie> i did!
  116. # [00:53] <Hixie> oh, i know what's wrong
  117. # [00:53] <Hixie> i'm calling it on a frame i've made display:none
  118. # [00:55] <Hixie> webkit has another crazy bug, if yo call it before onload it just returns false regardless
  119. # [00:56] <smaug____> so you can't search on long loading page?
  120. # [00:56] <Hixie> not in webkit
  121. # [00:56] <Hixie> you can in gecko
  122. # [00:56] <Hixie> (dunno exactly when it starts being possible in webkit)
  123. # [00:57] <Hixie> (it might work progressively, just not immediately)
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  126. # [01:01] <jarek> Hi
  127. # [01:01] <jarek> is there anything wrong in using custom (not defined in specification) tags in HTML5 documents?
  128. # [01:01] <jarek> I mean I know they don't validate
  129. # [01:02] <jarek> but besides that, are there any other practical drawbacks?
  130. # [01:02] <Hixie> yes
  131. # [01:02] <Hixie> if we start using them as elements in future revisions of HTML, your pages will break
  132. # [01:02] <jarek> I see, I can live with that :)
  133. # [01:02] <Hixie> also, today nobody will know what your pages mean, since they won't be following the standard
  134. # [01:03] <Hixie> also, there's a high likelihood you will accidentally run into weird behaviour, e.g. <image> parses weirdly even though it's not valid, as does <plaintext> and <xmp>, etc.
  135. # [01:03] <Hixie> there's probably a better way to do what you want to do
  136. # [01:03] <jarek> I was thinking about using custom XML namespaces, but most of the the new stuff (e.g. contentEditable) does not work with them
  137. # [01:05] <jarek> HTML5 is still mostly a document format, I wish there were more XUL-like tags
  138. # [01:05] <Hixie> like what?
  139. # [01:05] <Hixie> smaug____: filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=672395
  140. # [01:06] <jarek> like <box>, there is not sematics in HTML5 for describing many widgets
  141. # [01:06] <jarek> s/not/no
  142. # [01:06] <Hixie> <box> is presentational. use CSS for that.
  143. # [01:06] <Hixie> what widgets are you missing?
  144. # [01:07] <jarek> dialogs, menubars, toolbars, tabs...
  145. # [01:07] <jarek> I mean the usual stuff that is used in desktop apps
  146. # [01:07] <Hixie> we're looking at dialogs -- if you have any feedback on what you need there, please e-mail the list
  147. # [01:07] <Hixie> menubars and toolbars we have - <menu>
  148. # [01:07] <Hixie> tabs is a presentational thing - just a way to display multiple sections
  149. # [01:08] <Hixie> i have to run
  150. # [01:08] <Hixie> bbiab
  151. # [01:10] <benschwarz> Damn. I missed Hixie again
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  160. # [01:35] <realityking> Anyone know a good IRC channel to discuss WAI-ARIA questions?
  161. # [01:35] <realityking> Or would this one be good?
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  182. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> cssyThis might be good.
  183. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> realityking: ^^^ s/cssy//
  184. # [01:58] <realityking> thanks
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  187. # [01:59] <realityking> I wonder what the appropriate roles would be for something like this http://aryweb.nl/projects/mootools-datepicker/Test/
  188. # [01:59] <realityking> (month or year picker)
  189. # [01:59] <realityking> it's not really a grid, is it?
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  192. # [02:01] <TabAtkins> I don't think ARIA really has the ability to annotate a complex widget like a datepicker.
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  195. # [02:13] <realityking> there's a best practive example for the days view
  196. # [02:13] <realityking> which is the most complex one
  197. # [02:14] <realityking> which is supposed to be done as a grid
  198. # [02:14] <realityking> which works because columns and rows actually mean something
  199. # [02:14] <realityking> but that isn't true for the months and days views
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  201. # [02:19] <TabAtkins> Yeah, indeed.
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  204. # [02:26] <jamesr> good god charles pritchard writes a lot of emails
  205. # [02:26] <jamesr> not short ones either
  206. # [02:27] <heycam> I find it difficult to reply to him, because he seems to make a lot of irrelevant statements in his emails, which don't really deal with the topics being discussed
  207. # [02:29] <jamesr> seems more interested in talking than communicating
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  231. # [03:42] <jamesr> question for anyone who's implemented canvas' globalCompositeOperation="copy" for text correctly - is there any reasonable way to implement this other than actually constructing a intermediate buffer to render into?
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  234. # [04:05] <roc> depends on your graphics library
  235. # [04:05] <roc> we use a temporary buffer
  236. # [04:05] <roc> does that bother you?
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  239. # [04:06] <jamesr> not necessarily. it's avoidable in some cases for most operations, but there doesn't seem to be any obvious way to avoid the buffer for text
  240. # [04:07] <jamesr> i suspect (hope) that people don't use these globalCompositeOperations enough for it to matter too much
  241. # [04:07] <roc> I personally would not bother trying to optimize it
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  373. # [10:10] <annevk> if window.find selects, shouldn't it maybe be in AryehGregor's draft?
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  375. # [10:10] <annevk> Hixie, I still think we should have something for in-page menus and toolbars
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  385. # [10:43] <jgraham> annevk: Is there some way to get more context in the webapps tracker diff view?
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  387. # [10:49] <annevk> not anymore
  388. # [10:49] <annevk> see http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/trunk/web-apps-tracker/trackerlib.py
  389. # [10:50] <annevk> I suppose you can patch it back in
  390. # [10:50] <david_carlisle> should sliders from input type=range have keyboard controls to step the value by default? seems left/right arrow keys work in Opera 11, but not in Chrome dev?
  391. # [10:51] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: I'd expect them to be keyboard-accessible without scripting
  392. # [10:51] <david_carlisle> so would I but....
  393. # [10:51] <david_carlisle> http://dpcarlisle.blogspot.com/2011/07/slinky-canvas.html
  394. # [10:51] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: Chrome's HTML5 forms implementation is incomplete to put it politely
  395. # [10:52] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: shoul dteh spec say something about keyboard access or is that at another level spec-wise
  396. # [10:52] <david_carlisle> the
  397. # [10:52] <jgraham> It should be obvious really. But it's a UI issue so the spec can't mandate UI
  398. # [10:52] <jgraham> s/so/and/
  399. # [10:53] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: in theory, maybe it belongs on the level on intrinsic behavior of native widgets. In practice, I guess it would be good for the spec to say something, because the exact events may be relevant to authors who override stuff with their own event handlers
  400. # [10:55] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: or maybe it's best just to moan here until you all implement it the same way
  401. # [10:56] <hsivonen> similarly, the spec pretends to delegate default <label> onclick behavior to host OS conventions and the behavior of pressing enter to submit a form, but in practice, browsers need to be consistent
  402. # [10:57] <hsivonen> so the spec fails to be useful when browser developers end up reverse engineering other products anyway
  403. # [10:57] <hsivonen> for example, the <label> case is being addressed in Gecko based on observations of the behavior of other browsers
  404. # [10:59] <david_carlisle> thanks all for the thoughts, good to know I hadn't missed something and that convergence is expected, as implementations catch up with each other
  405. # [10:59] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: filing a bug on the chromium bug tracker might be more effective than pointing out the flaw here
  406. # [10:59] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: OK, will do
  407. # [10:59] <david_carlisle> here is quicker response though:-)
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  419. # [11:25] <annevk> NodeIterator is a little more complicated than expected
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  436. # [12:16] <AnselmBradford> Would anyone be able to explain the rationale behind this to me? The id attribute lists the following: "Identifiers are opaque strings. Particular meanings should not be derived from the value of the id attribute" - which I interpret to mean the semantics of an element should not be conveyed in an id. The class attribute on the other hand includes "authors are encouraged to use values that describe the nature of the content". Why is
  437. # [12:16] <AnselmBradford> attaching semantic meaning desirable for classes but not ids?
  438. # [12:18] <Ms2ger> Wrong interpretation
  439. # [12:18] <Ms2ger> Authors should use values that describe the nature of the content for both classes and ids, but you shouldn't try to derive meaning from them in other people's content
  440. # [12:20] <annevk> Ms2ger, if you can figure out a pseudo-algorithm for what moveNext() does let me know
  441. # [12:20] <Ms2ger> What's moveNext?
  442. # [12:20] <annevk> I mean nextNode()
  443. # [12:20] <annevk> I'm pretty close, but it is kind of hairy :(
  444. # [12:21] <Ms2ger> Sounds about right, then :)
  445. # [12:24] <AnselmBradford> Ms2ger: Ahh thanks! Is that what is meant by "opaque strings", that the values are to be treated as essentially meaningless to anyone but the author?
  446. # [12:24] <Ms2ger> Right
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  451. # [12:30] <AnselmBradford> Ms2ger: is there a difference between ids and classes in this regard? e.g. why aren't class values identified as opaque strings too? Also shouldn't that term be defined in terminology... or am I just naive to it
  452. # [12:31] <Ms2ger> Maybe
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  454. # [12:34] <Ms2ger> annevk, do you know of any compat issues Opera has by not supporting window.find?
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  456. # 06[12:34] * annevk looks
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  458. # [12:35] <annevk> "Breaks the "find" button in TinyMCE (possibly also the search/replace feature)"
  459. # [12:35] <annevk> that seems to be the only thing out there however
  460. # [12:36] <annevk> no other report
  461. # [12:37] <annevk> I reckon if Gecko drops it that's no longer a problem :)
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  463. # [12:40] <annevk> sweet
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  465. # [12:40] <annevk> NodeIterator is not interoperable at all
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  468. # [12:48] <smaug____> bz was hinting that we should just make window.find() no-op
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  474. # 04[12:55] <Ms2ger> krijn, happy birthday!
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  481. # [13:19] <AnselmBradford> with id attributes ... the spec says "The value must not contain any space characters." and in the next paragraph "user agents must associate the element with the given value (exactly, including any space characters)" is this saying that authors should not use spaces but UAs should honor them if present?
  482. # [13:20] <smaug____> annevk: in which way is NodeIterator not interoperable?
  483. # [13:20] <jgraham> AnselmBradford: Ye
  484. # [13:20] <jgraham> s
  485. # [13:21] <AnselmBradford> jgraham: cheers!
  486. # [13:22] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: I reported a chrome bug on slider controls http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=89698 but they say it's not a bug, I have to tab to focus, not use the mouse, hmmmm
  487. # [13:24] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: not having click to focus the control is odd
  488. # [13:24] <jgraham> s/odd/buggy/
  489. # [13:24] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: "If you don't like this focus behavior, please file another bug." I guess that's what I'll do...
  490. # [13:25] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: probably the best course of action
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  503. # [14:11] <jgraham> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ieinternals/archive/2011/07/18/optimal-html-head-ordering-to-avoid-parser-restarts-redownloads-and-improve-performance.aspx#10187680 suggests someone needs to do the "UA requirements" vs "author requirements" talk at Microsoft
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  523. # [15:30] <annevk> smaug____, e.g. how often a filter is invoked that returns nothing
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  532. # [15:48] <annevk> this is pretty great: http://my.opera.com/chooseopera/blog/2011/07/19/and-now-for-something-completely-random-your-own-band
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  546. # [16:30] <jgraham> Hmm, I thought it was required that a charset-declaring <meta> was the first element in the <head>, but it doesn't seem to be
  547. # [16:30] <jgraham> +if any
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  549. # [16:32] <Ms2ger> It might have used to be
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  556. # [16:43] <nlogax> i think it only needs to fit in the first 512 bytes
  557. # [16:46] <Philip`> 1024
  558. # [16:46] <annevk> smaug____, another difference is when INVALID_STATE_ERR exception is thrown
  559. # [16:46] <Philip`> (See http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/semantics.html#charset512 )
  560. # [16:46] <Philip`> (which is not at all a confusing link)
  561. # [16:47] <annevk> smaug____, in Gecko it happens if the callback invokes detach(); in WebKit you have to invoke the method again
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  564. # [16:58] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  565. # [17:01] <annevk> good afternoon, dglazkov!
  566. # [17:04] <Ms2ger> Philip`, #charset1024 works too
  567. # [17:04] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Less fun though
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  572. # [17:13] <annevk> As long as the implementor requirements are that you have to look for an encoding forever it is still not really nice though
  573. # [17:13] <annevk> That is, not fully deterministic
  574. # [17:14] <annevk> Or maybe that changed
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  583. # [17:30] <matjas> “It's utterly bizarre to me that HTML5 would impose an "authoring requirement" which it doesn't bother to add to its implementation requirements, particularly when its failure to do so could result in a security vulnerability. But I don't work on much HTML5 stuff myself.” — Eric Law http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ieinternals/archive/2011/07/18/optimal-html-head-ordering-to-avoid-parser-restarts-red
  584. # [17:30] <matjas> ownloads-and-improve-performance.aspx
  585. # [17:31] <matjas> let’s try that again: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ieinternals/archive/2011/07/18/optimal-html-head-ordering-to-avoid-parser-restarts-redownloads-and-improve-performance.aspx
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  587. # [17:33] <annevk> he doesn't explain the vulnerability
  588. # [17:36] <jgraham> It would be nice if he would
  589. # [17:36] <jgraham> I was going to ask but got distracted by charset metas not having to be first in the head per spec
  590. # [17:37] <jgraham> I am guessing it it just a "some people might have bad sanitizers" vunerability, but maybe I will be surprised
  591. # 03[17:41] * Parts: xyz__ (~xyz@p578F3A55.dip.t-dialin.net) ("Verlassend")
  592. # [17:45] <annevk> How would you describe (1 << (node.nodeType() - 1)) & iterator.whatToShow in prose?
  593. # [17:46] <annevk> It is needed to map the constants of http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Traversal-Range/traversal.html#Traversal-NodeFilter to Node.XXX_Node constants
  594. # [17:46] <Philip`> "If the n'th bit (where 0 is the least significant bit) of whatToShow is set, where n is nodeType"?
  595. # [17:47] <Philip`> (or nodeType-1)
  596. # 06[17:51] * Ms2ger wonders which implementation that's from
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  598. # [18:00] <Ms2ger> <annevk> yeah, but we first need to figure out the Web platform
  599. # [18:00] <Ms2ger> annevk++
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  606. # [18:06] <annevk> Ms2ger, context? :)
  607. # 04[18:07] <Ms2ger> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20110707#l-135
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  611. # [18:09] <annevk> you have quite the backlog
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  613. # [18:12] <Ms2ger> Yes
  614. # 04[18:12] <Ms2ger> <krijn> (Server will be down a bit today, getting a new fiberglass connection)
  615. # [18:12] <Ms2ger> A bit today?
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  617. # [18:14] <jgraham> Any reason that the web dom core tests aren't on the W3C server? Or am I looking in the wrong place?
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  619. # [18:15] <annevk> they are in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/
  620. # [18:16] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/tip/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger
  621. # [18:16] <jgraham> Oh, I thought they might be in the same place as the spec or something. Would make them easier to find
  622. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> w3c-test.org is out-of-date again..
  623. # [18:16] <annevk> they used to be
  624. # 06[18:16] * Ms2ger sighs
  625. # [18:16] <annevk> no idea why they moved
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  641. # 10[18:48] <krijnserver> Ms2ger: if you (or anyone else) have the missing logs, please mail them to me
  642. # 06[18:49] * Philip` has logs
  643. # [18:49] <Philip`> What time period?
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  645. # 10[18:50] <krijnserver> Ms2ger: heh, and thanks :)
  646. # 10[18:50] <krijnserver> Philip`: a week or something
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  648. # 04[18:50] <Philip`> krijnserver: Which week?
  649. # 10[18:51] <krijnserver> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/201107
  650. # 10[18:51] <krijnserver> That's all quite empty
  651. # 10[18:51] <krijnserver> Brb, fixing food
  652. # 06[18:52] * annevk wonders what servers eat these days
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  662. # 04[18:56] <Philip`> krijnhuman: http://zaynar.co.uk/misc/whatwg-20110701-to-20110719ish.log
  663. # 06[18:57] * Philip` apologises for the bottom half of the file being backwards
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  682. # 10[19:06] <krijnhuman> annevk: same stuff as always, http://lockerz.com/s/121710484, keeps servers healthy
  683. # 10[19:08] <krijnhuman> Philip`: thanks, will add them tonightish
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  690. # [19:14] <Ms2ger> 20:34 < annevk> teehee logs offline again
  691. # [19:14] <Ms2ger> 20:34 < zewt> let's all say mean things
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  694. # [19:17] <annevk> WHATWG secrets unveiled
  695. # 10[19:18] <krijnh> My idea was to add some..
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  697. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> 01:06 < weinig> Hixie: I am implementing annevk's new Event stuff just to rid my future test cases of it :)
  698. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> weinig++
  699. # 03[19:21] * Joins: cygri (~cygri@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  700. # 06[19:21] * weinig should really land that
  701. # [19:25] <smaug____> I wonder when to implement the new event initialization
  702. # [19:27] <Ms2ger> Now :)
  703. # [19:28] <smaug____> Ms2ger: well, is the spec stable in that case?
  704. # [19:28] <smaug____> has it been reviewed?
  705. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> As stable as it gets without implementations, I think
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  707. # [19:32] <annevk> yeah
  708. # [19:32] <annevk> need implementations
  709. # [19:32] <annevk> and implementor feedback if there are bugs :)
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  711. # [19:33] <weinig> annevk: bugs?
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  713. # [19:35] <annevk> in the spec
  714. # [19:35] <annevk> I haven't heard of any so far though
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  722. # [19:41] <annevk> Anyone here have a problem with DOM Core including NodeIterator and TreeWalker?
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  725. # [19:42] <annevk> In favor?
  726. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> meh
  727. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> You get to maintain it :)
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  731. # [19:47] <jgraham> annevk: I like the idea of them being specified somewhere. I don't really care where :)
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  743. # [20:10] <Hixie> annevk: ooh, i like your thinking (making window.find() aryeh's problem) :-)
  744. # 03[20:11] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  745. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> Hixie, hah
  746. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> annevk, you realize he's just going to play that trick on you next time, right? :)
  747. # [20:13] <annevk> would not be the first time :)
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  798. # [22:21] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#traversal
  799. # [22:21] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-traversal
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  804. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> Argh, I hate numeric constants and bitmasks so bad.
  805. # [22:27] <annevk> Thanks for the input
  806. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> Do we use <sup>th</sup> consistently?
  807. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Sorry, I know legacy constraints tie our hands here.
  808. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> But still.
  809. # [22:27] <annevk> Or should I say, film at eleven!
  810. # [22:28] <Ms2ger> At eleven? Should hurry up, then
  811. # [22:29] <annevk> Ms2ger, not sure, I think we should though
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  813. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> Should check that one day
  814. # [22:30] <annevk> There are a few things about consistency that ought to be done one day
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  817. # [22:37] <annevk> By the way, the nextNode() and previousNode() algorithms are pretty much identical. Maybe they should use a common algorithm.
  818. # [22:43] <Ms2ger> I believe Gecko shares the code there
  819. # [22:44] <annevk> Also for maintenance of the specification it would make sense. However, it would be cool if David and others could review it first :)
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  821. # [22:47] <Ms2ger> sicking, ^
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  835. # [23:25] <Ms2ger> Got through my #whatwg backlog, yay
  836. # [23:25] <jgraham> annevk: Stop 5 of nextNode is wrong
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  838. # [23:25] <jgraham> Oh, maybe it's not
  839. # [23:26] <annevk> substep 5?
  840. # [23:26] <jgraham> Yeah
  841. # [23:27] <jgraham> It's right but the whole substep/overall steps thing is confusing
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  843. # [23:27] <annevk> it's a pattern more specs use, not sure how to do it differently
  844. # [23:27] <jgraham> Well HTML5 uses it and it can be confusing there. ES5 does something different
  845. # 06[23:27] * jgraham looks for an example
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  847. # [23:28] <Hixie> i'm not a fan of the terminology
  848. # [23:28] <Hixie> not sure how to fix it though
  849. # [23:28] <Hixie> ES5's approach isn't one i like either
  850. # [23:29] <jgraham> http://es5.github.com/#x10.6 is one example
  851. # [23:29] <jgraham> It uses "repeat while" instead of "goto"
  852. # [23:30] <Hixie> what if index < 0 at the start of the loop?
  853. # [23:30] <Hixie> the html spec does sometimes say "run the following substeps while (some condition)", iirc
  854. # [23:30] <annevk> this one is not really goto
  855. # [23:30] <annevk> it's more like continue/break
  856. # [23:31] <jgraham> Yeah, it's continue/break phrased as goto :)
  857. # [23:31] <Ms2ger> goto hell?
  858. # [23:31] <jgraham> Also makes it confusing when you say "terminate these steps"
  859. # [23:32] <jgraham> Because it could be the inner steps or the overall set of steps
  860. # [23:32] <Hixie> yeah the problem i regularly have is with "break"
  861. # [23:32] <Hixie> or even worse, "continue"
  862. # [23:32] <annevk> this one has both :evil:
  863. # [23:33] <Ms2ger> The web :evil:
  864. # 03[23:33] * Joins: AnselmBradford (~ans@118-93-86-178.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  865. # [23:33] <Hixie> if any of you can come up with better wording for any of hte algorithms in the html spec, don't hesitate to let me know
  866. # 02[23:34] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  867. # 06[23:34] * jgraham should try to work out a nice way to do this to see if he is actually learning anything from "programming pearls"
  868. # [23:35] <zewt> Hixie: fwiw, my impression from that is that it sort of sounds like you're supposed to abort the steps immediately if (some condition) ever turns false mid-loop (which I assume is usually not intended)
  869. # 03[23:35] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  870. # [23:35] <Hixie> zewt: yeah, that's another problem with that wording
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  876. # [23:45] <jgraham> Doesn't "return" imply "and terminate these steps"?
  877. # [23:45] <Hixie> no
  878. # [23:46] <Hixie> there are a number of algorithms that return and continue
  879. # 03[23:46] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  880. # [23:47] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/How_to_write_a_spec should maybe be updated with instructions on writing algorithms
  881. # [23:48] <annevk> and maybe within specs there should be instructions on how to read them?
  882. # [23:48] <annevk> maybe after jgraham put some thought into it
  883. # [23:48] <annevk> nn
  884. # [23:48] <Hixie> as far as reading them, i think it's best if they're just english
  885. # [23:49] <annevk> yeah, ideally that's sufficient :)
  886. # [23:49] <jgraham> Well they are in some sense. But they contain terms of art
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  892. # [23:53] <roc> Maybe we should write the algorithms in JS
  893. # [23:53] <roc> it would make the control structures clearer
  894. # [23:53] <roc> with defined syntax for escaping back into English
  895. # 02[23:54] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
  896. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> That would be interesting.
  897. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> Would probably make flexbox easier to write.
  898. # [23:55] <heycam> in the JS algorithm you would construct a string and then say "evalEnglish(theString);" :)
  899. # [23:55] <Hixie> then we'd have to define the interaction of english and js
  900. # [23:55] <roc> that's exactly what I was thinking
  901. # 03[23:55] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  902. # [23:56] <Philip`> Do it as a function call, where the function happens to be defined in English
  903. # [23:56] <Philip`> so all the arguments and return values are nice and explicit
  904. # [23:56] <roc> AI("Queue a task to fire all applicable queue events");
  905. # [23:56] <Hixie> also you'd have to define which parts of the JS semantics you meant to expose and which were side-effects
  906. # 03[23:56] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com)
  907. # [23:57] <roc> yeah, it's problematic
  908. # [23:57] <heycam> how simple specs could become if the AI function were specified. someone should get on to defining that.
  909. # [23:57] <roc> but what we have right now is problematic too: pseudocode in English with gotos
  910. # [23:57] <Hixie> i just wish i could have unit tests for english
  911. # [23:57] <Hixie> and that my compiler had less latency. and didn't talk back to me. :-P
  912. # [23:59] <Philip`> Unit tests for English could just be examples, listing input and output and side-effects
  913. # [23:59] <Philip`> The only hard part is executing the unit tests
  914. # [23:59] <roc> Google can implement it. Search all the Web's scripts for comments related to the request string, cobble the top 10 hits together in a way that compiles, and eval it
  915. # Session Close: Wed Jul 20 00:00:00 2011

The end :)