/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 05 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  32. # [01:43] <hdtdi> hi. i have a question. if i have a website and on this website i have 5 short articles on under another wrapped in a div. is it appropriate to change the div with <section> </section> and in between to wrap every article with <article>text</article> i mean is this the purpose of this tags?
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  109. # [04:58] <franksalim> I was hoping to find mark pilgrim
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  111. # [04:58] <paul_irish> afk, as it were. :/
  112. # [04:58] <franksalim> paul_irish: away from internet
  113. # [05:01] <karlcow> franksalim: mark is 410
  114. # [05:03] <karlcow> http://reinout.vanrees.org/weblog/2011/10/04/github.html
  115. # [05:03] <karlcow> wrong chan
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  118. # [05:15] <jacobolus> very surprising considering how damn useful mark's sites have been as educational resources
  119. # [05:15] <jacobolus> no one has any clue if he's okay?
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  131. # [05:38] <karlcow> jacobolus: everything is gone so far https://twitter.com/diveintomark his twitter account, his domain names
  132. # [05:38] <jacobolus> karlcow: yes, all the domains 410
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  134. # [05:39] <jacobolus> which is worrying, to say the least :/
  135. # [05:41] * danbeam__ should make his website give a HTTP/1.1 418
  136. # [05:41] <jacobolus> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-10.4.11
  137. # [05:41] <danbeam__> make that HTCPCP/1.0
  138. # [05:43] <danbeam__> jacobolus: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2324#section-2.3.2
  139. # [05:43] <jacobolus> yeah, I know the coffee-pot protocol :)
  140. # [05:43] <shepazu> he lives near me, but I don't know him well… only met him once, at a conference
  141. # [05:43] <danbeam__> jacobolus: yay
  142. # [05:44] <shepazu> wish I could contact him, but it seems unlikely he wants to be contacted
  143. # [05:44] <karlcow> shepazu: yup
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  145. # [05:45] <jacobolus> I'm sure that people who know him will be trying to contact him. It would be very reassuring to hear some kind of news that it’s only his web presence that’s in trouble though.
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  148. # [05:47] <shepazu> hopefully, yeah
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  153. # [06:00] <roc> unless he has a very advanced deadman switch, presumably he's alive and in possession of his faculties
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  158. # [06:11] <paul_irish> gsnedders: i want to document the ports (alive and dead) of html5lib on the google code project. can you add me so i can start a wiki page for it?
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  165. # [06:30] <Hixie> sounds like mark is ok, fwiw
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  168. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: that's good to hear
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  180. # [07:26] <hsivonen> not cool to make other people worry like that
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  184. # [07:37] <shepazu> thanks, Hixie, good to know
  185. # [07:38] <shepazu> shame about his Web content though, especially Dive Into HTML5
  186. # [07:38] <jacobolus> franksalim points out that the doctype is html 2.0; are there any other web pages in existence with an html 2 doctype?
  187. # [07:38] <jacobolus> i.e. the doctype on the 410'd domain roots
  188. # [07:38] <shepazu> jacobolus: probably not, but I suspect this will start a new trend
  189. # [07:39] <jacobolus> also, writing <br /> is invalid in html 2, right?
  190. # [07:39] <shepazu> HTML5 is soooooooo 2011… HTML 2.0 will be the pixel graphics revival of markup
  191. # [07:39] <Hixie> HTML5 is soooooo 2009 :-P
  192. # [07:40] <shepazu> 2009 is soooooo 2006!
  193. # [07:42] <hsivonen> jacobolus: IIRC, Apache uses an HTML 2.0 doctype for various error pages
  194. # [07:43] <hsivonen> shepazu: Dive into HTML5 is available at http://diveintohtml5.info/
  195. # [07:44] <shepazu> hsivonen: yeah, thanks… I guess it means that Mark won't be updating it, though
  196. # [07:44] <hsivonen> shepazu: maybe it's now like a paper book in that sense
  197. # [07:45] <shepazu> hsivonen: I've heard of those
  198. # [07:45] <shepazu> not saying it's not a great resource still… I just like the notion that there was this excellent reference that a smart guy was maintaining and keeping up-to-date
  199. # [07:46] <hsivonen> yeah :-(
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  203. # [07:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=860 is odd
  204. # [07:51] <hsivonen> so we went through all the effort to make the HTML parser not reparse on syntax failures and now Opera has made their XML code path reparse as HTML upon syntax failure
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  206. # [07:52] <Hixie> imho opera's behaviour there is non-conforming and shouldn't be encouraged
  207. # [07:54] <hsivonen> If we're giving up on Draconian behavior, I think browsers should implement non-reparsing XML5 instead
  208. # [07:54] <Hixie> i'm not convinced we're ever going to give up draconian behaviour. frankly i'm not convinced there's a need anymore.
  209. # [07:54] <hsivonen> btw, what does Opera do in order to still pass Acid3?
  210. # [07:55] <hsivonen> are the Acid3 XML tests in XHR?
  211. # [07:55] <Hixie> (xml has been reduced to the equivalent of json, and json doesn't do error-recovery either)
  212. # [07:55] <Hixie> they've asked if we can change acid3
  213. # [07:55] <Hixie> so they might have a hack for now
  214. # [07:55] <Hixie> or they might fail it
  215. # [07:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: if you call them equilavent, the next thing we know is people asking for automatic mapping between JSON and XML
  216. # [07:55] <Hixie> equivalent in purpose, not data model
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  241. # [09:03] <jacobolus> ugh, JSON libraries' not forgivingly parsing things is awful
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  252. # [09:09] <hsivonen> my attempt to integrate with the JSON API of Delicious was stopped by the supposed JSON output from Delicions escaping ' as \'
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  254. # [09:09] <hsivonen> Yes, I did report the bug to Delicious. No, it was not fixed in a timely manner
  255. # [09:14] <Hixie> JSON doesn't support JS escapes?
  256. # [09:16] <annevk> doesn't support single quotes or comments
  257. # [09:16] <annevk> it's a sad format
  258. # [09:17] <annevk> widely adopted though
  259. # [09:17] <zcorpan> FlorianX: you can just write an addendum to your thesis saying that the specs have now been merged
  260. # [09:17] <annevk> the problem with XML for us is that sites are broken and give everyone text/html and Opera application/xml or some such with broken content
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  262. # [09:17] <annevk> now maybe the majority case of XML usage is not web-facing, but we certainly get our share and it blows
  263. # [09:18] <annevk> e.g. Gmail mobile did not work for three weeks in Opera at one point because of this
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  265. # [09:18] <Hixie> it would help if opera had more market share, people would test for it more :-/
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  276. # [09:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ doesn't seem to work
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  279. # [09:39] <hsivonen> why do the phone images at http://www.apple.com/iphone/ lack alpha in Gecko? is Apple using some -webkit-CSS instead of PNG alpha?
  280. # [09:41] * Joins: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193)
  281. # [09:41] <hsivonen> looks like they use JPEG for RGB and -webkit- stuff for alpha
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  283. # [09:42] <hsivonen> I'm a bit surprised that Apple prefers ugliness in non-WebKit browsers over worse image compression
  284. # [09:53] <annevk> karlcow, what's wrong with corp.invalid and why did you add a slash?
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  287. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> annevk: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20111005#l-158
  288. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> [06:11] <paul_irish> gsnedders: i want to document the ports (alive and dead) of html5lib on the google code project. can you add me so i can start a wiki page for it?
  289. # [10:02] <annevk> https://github.com/diveintomark
  290. # [10:02] <annevk> seems still alive
  291. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think that's a copy that some third-party set up
  292. # [10:03] <annevk> I added paul_irish to html5lib
  293. # [10:04] <annevk> MikeSmith, I see
  294. # [10:04] <annevk> all the blog posts gone
  295. # [10:04] <annevk> I wonder how much Google Reader has
  296. # [10:04] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  297. # [10:05] <annevk> man back in the days I used to read those quite a bit :(
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  304. # [10:21] <foolip> so <video> is under the-iframe-element.html#the-video-element again after (zcorpan says) complete and web-apps were merged
  305. # [10:21] <foolip> is a different section splitter used?
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  307. # [10:21] <annevk> it uses the complete splitter
  308. # [10:22] <annevk> do you still have access to html5.org foolip?
  309. # [10:23] <jgraham> Hixie: Having sites fail in Opera that work in other browsers due to incorrect labelling as XML is hardly helpful to that goal
  310. # [10:23] <foolip> annevk, I should
  311. # [10:24] <jgraham> (it's also not really clear it's non-conforming. It violates the *spirit* of the XML spec but not really the letter)
  312. # [10:25] <jgraham> (FWIW I would also prefer that we implemenetd XML5, but that would be a much bigger change and also cause us to fail ACID3)
  313. # [10:25] <jgraham> +that test in
  314. # [10:26] <annevk> it violates HTTP and HTML, not XML
  315. # [10:27] <jgraham> Well that part of HTTP is violated everywhere so I won't really cry about that
  316. # [10:27] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@112-68-245-239f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  317. # [10:28] <annevk> me neither, just explaining the Acid3 argument
  318. # [10:28] <jgraham> Fair enough
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  322. # [10:39] * annevk wonders if someone here can explain http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/002444.html in layman's terms
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  326. # [10:47] * kennyluck_ is now known as kennyluck
  327. # [10:47] <Philip`> annevk: It sounds like: If the neutrinos were travelling faster than the speed of light, they would lose energy along the way (due to some weird complex physicsy thing which is presumably believed to be true), but the measured energy doesn't show that loss, so the explanation for the measurements must be something different to simply travelling faster than light
  328. # [10:48] <Philip`> The rest of it's just numbers and equations
  329. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> Bremsstrahlung is a nice word
  330. # [10:50] <jgraham> That seems to basically be it, yes
  331. # [10:50] <annevk> thanks!
  332. # [10:51] <annevk> I wonder why I did not read about that anywhere else yet
  333. # [10:51] <jgraham> Although it doesn't seem that convincing to say "if neutrinos did (physically impossible thing) physics predicts they would also do (some other thing) so obviously they can't have done (impossible thing)"
  334. # [10:51] <Philip`> It's not nearly sensationalistic enough
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  336. # [10:55] <Philip`> I guess the idea is to show that if one law of physics is broken in one particular case, then it can't just be fudged into the current model and instead the whole of the rest of physics will collapse around it, therefore physicists really really hope the law wasn't broken
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  339. # [11:02] <annevk> Can you export from Google Reader?
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  345. # [11:13] <foolip> MikeSmith, are you using spec-splitter.py from http://code.google.com/p/html5/ at the W3C, or can I remove the --w3c mode that only manages to print a double <!doctype> anyway?
  346. # [11:15] <Philip`> I thought it also made it not use HTML5, to satisfy W3C rules
  347. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> foolip: I think it does some other things as well
  348. # [11:15] <foolip> MikeSmith, ok, but are you using it?
  349. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> nope
  350. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> so feel free to remove it
  351. # [11:15] <Philip`> (The doctype thing seems to vary depending on exactly which libxml2 version you've got)
  352. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> I think I'm not even using the --w3c switch in the copy I run from
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  354. # [11:19] <foolip> Philip`, oh, I guess I'll have to detect and handle it then
  355. # [11:20] <foolip> MikeSmith, in case you're not following the upstream changes I won't worry about breaking it
  356. # [11:21] <foolip> Philip`, do you know which libxml2 versions *don't* print a doctype?
  357. # [11:21] <foolip> is it just a question of old vs new?
  358. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> foolip: I'll probably just port over you upstream changes once you have them done
  359. # [11:22] <foolip> ok then
  360. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> anybody know a good algorithm for sorting dotted-decimal numbers?
  361. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> e.g.,. "4.10.7.2.8"
  362. # [11:24] <foolip> with a comparator that splits on period and then compares fields until one is not equal or there are not more fields?
  363. # [11:25] <FlorianX> will someone reorganize the whatwg-site? because html ist now webapps 1.0 ?
  364. # [11:25] <Philip`> foolip: Per http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20110207#l-237 and subsequent lines, it sounds like 2.2.8 generated double doctypes, and some unknown earlier version didn't
  365. # [11:26] <Philip`> (Oh, this is lxml not libxml2)
  366. # [11:26] <annevk> FlorianX, Hixie has to do that
  367. # [11:26] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM1-112-209-10.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  368. # [11:26] <FlorianX> annevk ok
  369. # [11:26] <annevk> FlorianX, if you have a list of places the site is wrong sending an email could help
  370. # [11:27] <foolip> lxml is also based on libxml2
  371. # [11:27] <foolip> as is etree
  372. # [11:27] <foolip> so it sounds like recent libxml2 simply emit a doctype, so we don't have to ourselves
  373. # [11:27] <Philip`> Yeah, but different version numbers
  374. # [11:27] <Philip`> so it's lxml version 2.2.8+ that matters
  375. # [11:27] <Philip`> (probably)
  376. # [11:28] <foolip> well I'm getting double doctype in the etree code path now
  377. # [11:28] <FlorianX> annevk: I aim to the landigpage :-)
  378. # [11:28] <Philip`> Maybe the old ones just dropped the HTML5 doctype since it looked weird
  379. # [11:28] <Philip`> then they changed it later
  380. # [11:28] <annevk> FlorianX, ah yeah, best to just ping him when he's around
  381. # [11:28] <annevk> FlorianX, is your thesis going to be published btw?
  382. # [11:28] * annevk is kind of curious
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  386. # [11:29] <FlorianX> annevk: You say yesterday that you might want to write a blog post? Is that still the case? When can I expect with this (in order to source)?
  387. # [11:30] <FlorianX> annevk: i think so :-)
  388. # [11:31] <FlorianX> it's an overview of html(5) and some prototypical implementations
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  390. # [11:32] <annevk> FlorianX, hopefully later today, it will likely be a footnote
  391. # [11:32] * annevk is updating the FAQ on the wiki
  392. # [11:33] <FlorianX> annevk: thanks; I expect a tweet later:-D
  393. # [11:35] <annevk> seems Hixie updated the FAQ already
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  399. # [12:03] <annevk> might become more than a footnote
  400. # [12:03] <annevk> there's not much other news :)
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  403. # [12:04] * hsivonen assumes that OPERA in Jacques Distler's post has nothing to do with Opera
  404. # [12:04] <annevk> correct
  405. # [12:04] <annevk> they're the group that found the "faster-than-light neutrino"
  406. # [12:07] <zcorpan> annevk: you should write a blog post saying "HTML is dead, long live HTML!"
  407. # [12:08] <jgraham> Well OPERA is the name of the experiment and I don't think they believe they found a faster-than-light neutrino
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  409. # [12:09] <annevk> zcorpan, I went with "HTML is the new HTML"
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  411. # [12:10] <annevk> jgraham, I don't think it's the name of the experiment
  412. # [12:12] <jgraham> annevk: http://operaweb.lngs.infn.it/spip.php?rubrique1
  413. # [12:13] <Philip`> "the most straightforward test of the phenomenon of neutrino oscillations" - seems to have turned out less straightforward than they hoped
  414. # [12:14] <annevk> it sounds like it's a construct as well
  415. # [12:14] <annevk> oh well
  416. # [12:17] * Philip` is reminded of the person who first discovered a signal that turned out to be a pulsar, when they didn't know what it was and thought (half seriously) it could be communication by aliens, commenting that she was quite irritated with those aliens for happening to pick her radio frequency and her part of the sky and messing up her nice straightforward survey that she was going to do her PhD about
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  422. # [13:03] <karlcow> annevk: you can remove the slash, oversight from me. Imagine that corp.invalid becomes a real domain name. example.org|net|com are reserved for examples in specs
  423. # [13:04] <annevk> .invalid is reserved
  424. # [13:04] <annevk> that's why I used it
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  426. # [13:08] <karlcow> oooooh my bad then. Gomenasai
  427. # [13:08] <karlcow> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-level_domain#Reserved_domains
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  433. # [13:12] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-simple-dom
  434. # [13:12] <annevk> oh, Florian just left!
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  439. # [13:30] <zcorpan> annevk: so is there a reason the event handlers can't just be mixed with the attributes?
  440. # [13:30] <annevk> they'll prolly merge
  441. # [13:31] <zcorpan> ['div', {onclick:func, class:'foo'}, 'hello']
  442. # [13:32] <zcorpan> i guess one problem with this is that svg and mathml are not supported
  443. # [13:32] <jgraham> zcorpan: It makes a bit of a confusing model if the type affects how the property is set
  444. # [13:32] <annevk> we can just check the property
  445. # [13:32] <jgraham> Because ut should set attributes not properties in other cases
  446. # [13:33] <annevk> starts with "on", please go over there...
  447. # [13:33] <zcorpan> jgraham: i was thinking of looking at the attribute name, not the value type
  448. # [13:33] <annevk> http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html
  449. # [13:33] <jgraham> Great, as only as there are no attributes called "only" or similar
  450. # [13:34] <jgraham> Which seems like a scary thing to assume
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  452. # [13:34] <zcorpan> i was thinking of using the list of supported event handles
  453. # [13:35] <annevk> jgraham, seems like a silly attribute to introduce
  454. # [13:35] <annevk> zcorpan, yeah, you would have to do that anyway
  455. # [13:35] <zcorpan> so what do we do with svg and mathml?
  456. # [13:36] <jgraham> annevk: Magic prefix matching with no clear prefix delimiter seems bad compared to haven hidden rules about the avaliable namespace for new attributes
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  458. # [13:37] <jgraham> Umm, that made no sense
  459. # [13:37] <jgraham> seems bad *because* it introduces hidden rules
  460. # [13:37] <annevk> zcorpan, "svg:svg" and "math:mtext" or some such
  461. # [13:38] <annevk> there are hidden rules in attribute naming already
  462. # [13:38] <jgraham> Such as?
  463. # [13:38] <annevk> cannot start a non-event handler with on
  464. # [13:38] <jgraham> Why not?
  465. # [13:39] <zcorpan> annevk: is the verbosity for svg acceptable to svg people?
  466. # [13:39] <annevk> verbosity?
  467. # [13:39] <annevk> come on
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  470. # [13:41] <zcorpan> it's more verbose compared to html
  471. # [13:41] <zcorpan> but maybe it's ok
  472. # [13:42] <zcorpan> would it create elements with prefixes or without?
  473. # [13:42] <Philip`> Adding a scoping attribute, like [{'ns': 'svg'}, 'svg', ['circle', ...], ...]
  474. # [13:43] * jgraham wonders if that is a serious suggestion
  475. # [13:43] <jgraham> Sometimes it is hard to tell :)
  476. # [13:44] <Philip`> It's better than ['svg', {'xmlns':'http://www.w3.org/2000/svg'}, ['circle', ...], ...] at least :-p
  477. # [13:44] <Philip`> (which was going to be my initial suggestion)
  478. # [13:45] <zcorpan> 'svg:svg' seems better, especially if you're going to mix html and svg
  479. # [13:46] <FlorianX1> annevk THANKs!
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  485. # [14:14] <FlorianX1> annevk: again to the master thesis, this is unfortunately in German
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  487. # [14:17] <annevk> google translate :)
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  492. # [14:22] <FlorianX1> annevk: ok nice i'll let you know if its finished
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  494. # [14:23] <hsivonen> what did navigator.taintEnabled() actually mean?
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  497. # [14:26] <hsivonen> hmm. it was an experimental thing in Netscape 3 and has always returned false since Netscape 4
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  504. # [14:47] <karlcow> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2011/10/03/No-more-XML-parsing-failed-errors
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  541. # [16:26] <foolip> yay, <video> is back on the-video-element.html
  542. # [16:26] <hsivonen> hmm. I'm seeing no server response to my subscribe email to public-html-data-tf-request
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  549. # [16:43] <foolip> hsivonen, do you think it's worthwhile taking part in the TF?
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  552. # [16:48] <hsivonen> foolip: not sure yet. I think it's worthwhile to try
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  555. # [16:51] <foolip> hsivonen, maybe I'll join then
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  568. # [17:07] <manu`> hsivonen, foolip - I'd certainly hope you guys would take part in the html-data TF - there isn't much representation from the Microdata camp and thus, the discussion is probably going to be skewed as a result (no matter how hard the participants try to be even-handed)
  569. # [17:08] <foolip> Hixie, are you in it?
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  574. # [17:09] <FlorianX1> could someone explain me why the Geolocation APi is a "candidate recommendation" since 2010?
  575. # [17:10] <FlorianX1> what is happening there?
  576. # [17:10] <manu`> Also, does anyone know why Mark Pilgrim 410'd his identity yesterday (and people did check on him and he's fine, btw)
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  588. # [17:42] <karlcow> FlorianX1: http://www.w3.org/2008/geolocation/drafts/API/Implementation-Report.html indeed the implementation report doesn't seem to be that bad
  589. # [17:44] <FlorianX1> karlcow: yeah
  590. # [17:44] <karlcow> maybe it is because the v2 is being worked on http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-geolocation-minutes.html
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  592. # [17:46] <karlcow> FlorianX1: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-geolocation/2011Jun/0048.html
  593. # [17:46] <karlcow> Our normative reference to WebIDL has prevented us from moving past CR
  594. # [17:46] <karlcow> until WebIDL reaches Last Call. WebIDL is now expected to go to LC on
  595. # [17:46] <karlcow> June 30th, and we decided to keep the reference to that spec instead of
  596. # [17:46] <karlcow> copying the relevant IDL definitions into the Geolocation spec.
  597. # [17:47] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/
  598. # [17:47] <karlcow> W3C Working Draft 27 September 2011
  599. # [17:47] <zewt> ... do they really think that's a reasonable alternative? heh
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  601. # [17:47] <zewt> "fork the unfinished spec that you depend on and call it finished"
  602. # [17:49] <karlcow> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2011JulSep/0467.html
  603. # [17:49] <karlcow> RfC: Last Call Working Draft of Web IDL; deadline October 18
  604. # [17:51] <zewt> "last call" hardly seems to mean "finished" these days; just "reasonable snapshot point" or something like that
  605. # [17:52] <FlorianX1> karlcow: thanks for help! so webidl is the blocker
  606. # [17:52] <karlcow> my pleasure. But you should thank the w3c list search engine implemented by Olivier Thereaux in the past ;)
  607. # [17:53] <FlorianX1> :D
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  620. # [18:12] <JonathanNeal> benschwarz: how much of your theme at http://developers.whatwg.org/ is open?
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  649. # [19:28] <jacobolus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2011OctDec/0020.html looks an awful lot like s-exps
  650. # [19:29] <jacobolus> I like the idea though. I should make such a thing for working with Photoshop's horrific ActionDescriptor APIs
  651. # [19:32] <jacobolus> [horrific like here's the code photoshop's "script recorder" generates http://pastie.textmate.org/2644891 ]
  652. # [19:32] <jacobolus> [for using the curves tool once]
  653. # [19:34] <zewt> could be a little cleaner with some API shortcuts, but not that bad as generated code goes
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  655. # [19:36] <jacobolus> it includes 16 identical copies of the line `var idPnt = charIDToTypeID( "Pnt " );`
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  658. # [19:37] <jacobolus> but even cleaning up the mess made by the code generation, the API is a pretty nasty way to serialize a hierarchical object structure
  659. # [19:37] <jgraham> jacobolus: Well yes it is a lot like s-exps
  660. # [19:38] <jgraham> Turns out that lisp had some good ideas
  661. # [19:38] <jacobolus> jgraham: :)
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  664. # [19:38] <jgraham> Don't tell TabAtkins though, he will never stop going on about it :p
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  677. # [19:46] <zewt> it's a pretty straightforward recursive dump--when I think of ugly generated code I think of flex, heh
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  687. # [20:09] <Hixie> zcorpan: sweet! (your data e-mail)
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  689. # [20:13] <Jockel> hi
  690. # [20:14] <Jockel> is the feature of "channel messaging" new within html5?
  691. # [20:14] <Hixie> new relative to what?
  692. # [20:15] <Hixie> MessagePort was added in July 2008, I think.
  693. # [20:15] <Hixie> so, three years?
  694. # [20:15] <Hixie> kinda new
  695. # [20:15] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks
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  697. # [20:17] <Jockel> Hi Hixie, I guessed you will answering... ;-) saw some work from you in the web
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  701. # [20:18] <Jockel> is there anybody, who tried to "modelcheck" the message passing communication?
  702. # [20:18] <Hixie> "modelcheck"?
  703. # [20:18] <Jockel> ;-)
  704. # [20:19] <Jockel> yes, i guessed noone know "model checking" here
  705. # [20:19] <Hixie> we might know it under a different name :-)
  706. # [20:19] <Jockel> it is used in several formal lessons of computer science and was applied in critical system design
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  709. # [20:20] <Jockel> space science at NASA :)
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  711. # [20:20] <Hixie> yes but what is it? what does it tell us and how do we do it?
  712. # [20:20] <Jockel> Hixie: http://spinroot.com/gerard/
  713. # [20:21] <Jockel> this is one of the famous "model checker"
  714. # [20:21] <Jockel> model checker can check if there is a deadlock within the communication and everythig stands still
  715. # [20:21] <Jockel> for example
  716. # [20:22] <Jockel> model checker checks before something is going into runtime....
  717. # [20:22] <Jockel> so, for html5.....
  718. # [20:23] <Jockel> before somebody visits a website, a model checker would check the html5 for "communication errors"
  719. # [20:23] <Jockel> I do not know, if there occurs some cases of "communication errors" of html5?!?
  720. # [20:23] <Hixie> ah, i see. yes, we have checked if postMessage() can cause deadlocks. It cannot cause deadlocks on its own, but poor use of it can cause logical deadlocks.
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  723. # [20:24] <Jockel> Hixie: Are you working in zurich?
  724. # [20:25] <Hixie> (it's a completely async model and there's no way to block on reading from a port)
  725. # [20:25] <Hixie> i do not
  726. # [20:25] <Hixie> though i have been to zurich
  727. # [20:25] <Hixie> it looked like a localized version of geneva :-)
  728. # [20:25] <Jockel> Hixie: I saw, you were working for G... and you came from ch?
  729. # [20:26] <Jockel> Hixie: I asked, because I know somebody, working at G-zürich
  730. # [20:26] <Hixie> what exactly do you mean by "came from"?
  731. # [20:27] <Hixie> (gotta go, bbiab)
  732. # [20:27] <Jockel> Hixie: Only I saw your webpage.... http://hixie.ch/
  733. # [20:28] <Jockel> so I guessed you are working in zürich ;)
  734. # [20:31] <Jockel> Hixie: Synchronous communication is not possible in the html5, or?
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  738. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> Jockel, Hixie hasn't lived in Switzerland for like 20 years, or close to it. He's in Mountain View, IIRC.
  739. # [20:38] <Jockel> AryehGregor: Thanks ;)
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  763. # [21:23] <JonathanNeal> microdata isn't part of html5?
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  767. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, it's part of HTML, which is what the WHATWG spec is called. It's not part of HTML5, which is what the W3C spec is called.
  768. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> The WHATWG spec also used to be called HTML5, so microdata was part of that.
  769. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> It also used to be part of the W3C HTML5 spec until it was split out by WG decision.
  770. # [21:32] <JonathanNeal> Complicated.
  771. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> Yes.
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  787. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> jgraham, okay, so forget about performance. I'm trying to debug an uncaught exception in testharness.js, and it's at the end of a stack of 20 recursive calls to render, substitute, substitute_single, substitute_children, and map. Where render is called originally by Output.show_results. If we just built the HTML directly, this problem would probably be trivial to debug if it occurred at all.
  788. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> This is really not a good level of abstraction.
  789. # [22:27] <Hixie> anyone know how i can find out what punctuation sorts below '"' in the en-US.utf8 locale on my linux box?
  790. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> If you're worried about safety, I'd take the slight extra length of direct use of DOM methods over this templating stuff anyday.
  791. # [22:28] * AryehGregor writes a patch to see how long that would be
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  796. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> jgraham, http://pastebin.com/mDEs9T4j
  797. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> -8 lines.
  798. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> And completely safe, innerHTML used only for static strings.
  799. # [22:44] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait, I was using the wrong brace style, so really it should be -7 lines.
  800. # [22:44] <AryehGregor> If you ignore lines that are blank or contain only brackets/braces/etc., still -3 lines.
  801. # [22:44] <AryehGregor> Would you object if I commit this?
  802. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> (BTW, it also fixed the mysterious deeply-nested exception I was getting with the templating stuff)
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  806. # [22:57] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Yes, that is the worst problem
  807. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> Which is?
  808. # [22:58] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  809. # [22:58] <jgraham> When there is an error and the stack trace is, uh, confusing
  810. # [22:58] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
  811. # [22:58] <AryehGregor> And the advantage is . . . ?
  812. # [23:00] <AryehGregor> I mean, I can see how in theory you might want it to be shorter, but it's actually not.
  813. # [23:00] <AryehGregor> At least in this case.
  814. # [23:00] <jgraham> Well it seems like a nice model. Nice enough that annevk is pushing something not dissimilar for DOM :)
  815. # [23:00] <AryehGregor> In what way is it nice?
  816. # [23:00] <jgraham> But I won't object to this patch
  817. # [23:01] <jgraham> It is a very regular way of describing the tree that you want just using js objects
  818. # [23:01] * AryehGregor pushes the patch
  819. # [23:02] <jgraham> Rather than having to use special code for each different case
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  821. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> That might be useful in some theoretical circumstances, just not here.
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  830. # [23:17] <Hixie> benschwarz: yt?
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  833. # [23:26] * AryehGregor strongly suspects that assert_*() is a bottleneck here too
  834. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> It seems to format the message even if it's not going to be used, which hopefully it rarely will be.
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  838. # [23:30] <benschwarz> Hixie: am now.
  839. # [23:30] <benschwarz> JonathanNeal: heya
  840. # [23:31] <JonathanNeal> hey benschwarz! :)
  841. # [23:33] <benschwarz> I didn't understand your question…
  842. # [23:33] <benschwarz> how open?
  843. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I'm going to be pushing some microoptimizations to testharness.js that provide large quantifiable performance gains on large result sets. I just pushed the first one.
  844. # [23:35] <JonathanNeal> I've had an idea for something like this benschwarz http://www.diveinto.org/html5/modern.index.html
  845. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> I'll ask you first if they involve any substantial refactoring or design changes.
  846. # [23:35] <JonathanNeal> but it's fully based on the themework you did for the developers whatwg
  847. # [23:36] <benschwarz> JonathanNeal: it looks gnarly
  848. # [23:36] <benschwarz> use it!
  849. # [23:36] <JonathanNeal> cool
  850. # [23:36] <JonathanNeal> thanks
  851. # [23:36] <benschwarz> I never licensed it or anything… mainly just didn't consider other uses for it
  852. # [23:37] <JonathanNeal> It's a good outline for any collection of papers on a subject.
  853. # [23:37] <JonathanNeal> design, I mean
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  855. # [23:37] <JonathanNeal> I'm just experimenting with fonts to find something that will read comfortably on my iPad as well.
  856. # [23:39] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I think the commit message was harsh even if I don't entirely disagree
  857. # [23:39] <jgraham> (for the template removal)
  858. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> jgraham, sorry about that.
  859. # [23:40] <benschwarz> JonathanNeal: if anything is worth putting back into developers.whatwg.org, let me know :)
  860. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> I was a little frustrated after having to deal with a few too many giant stack traces and a little too much bad performance. :)
  861. # [23:40] * AryehGregor is working on the latter right now
  862. # [23:41] <JonathanNeal> benschwarz: i'll definitely let you know if it is.
  863. # [23:44] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.89.135)
  864. # [23:51] <Hixie> benschwarz: i was wondering how often the developers.whatwg.org site was resynced and whether it would make sense for me to only update the source file once a week or something
  865. # [23:53] <benschwarz> Hixie: Are you doing that manually?
  866. # [23:54] <Hixie> it's in a script that triggers each time i update, currently
  867. # [23:54] <benschwarz> Hixie: I just run it manually still… I always meant to make it a cron task
  868. # [23:55] <benschwarz> I run it every few weeks
  869. # [23:58] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  870. # Session Close: Thu Oct 06 00:00:01 2011

The end :)