/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Nov 19 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:06] <ap> Hixie: does HTML5 parser (still) disallow surrogates in numeric entities (such as &#xd83d;&#xde12;)?
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  9. # [00:12] <Hixie> yes
  10. # [00:12] <Hixie> ewll
  11. # [00:12] <Hixie> well
  12. # [00:12] <ap> Hixie: this used to work in Gecko and in WebKit, and I just got a bug
  13. # [00:12] <Hixie> the parser doesn't allow or disallow anything
  14. # [00:12] <Hixie> bu the syntax does
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  16. # [00:13] <ap> Hixie: the parser converts these to U+FFFD
  17. # [00:13] <Hixie> that appears to be consistent with the spec (http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#tokenizing-character-references)
  18. # [00:16] <ap> Hixie: so I sent that bug back for now, but I don't have a great explanation why we had to break this. It worked in at least two engines, and appeared useful
  19. # [00:16] <Hixie> why is it useful?
  20. # [00:16] <Hixie> just encode the actual character
  21. # [00:16] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@udp089923uds.ucsf.edu)
  22. # [00:16] <Hixie> surrogates are a UTF-16 feature
  23. # [00:17] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  24. # [00:17] <ap> Hixie: in that some dumb perl script had more chance of encoding non-ASCII correctly. for some people, lots of people don't want to transfer non-ASCII
  25. # [00:17] <ap> for some reason
  26. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> ap: He meant use the escape for the actual character.
  27. # [00:17] <roc> oh dear, bz used the classic "with all due respect" -> "with absolutely no respect"
  28. # [00:17] <Hixie> ap: supporting surrogates would be like supporting &#xC3;&#xA9; for &eacute;
  29. # [00:18] <ap> TabAtkins: like &#128530; ? that's what I've been responding to. A dumb script won't do that
  30. # [00:18] <Hixie> ap: just use the actual unicode codepoint
  31. # [00:18] <Hixie> ap: why would a dumb perl script ever see utf-16? perl uses utf-8.
  32. # [00:18] <Hixie> tantek: i updated the spec to make : optional in time zones
  33. # [00:19] <ap> Hixie: practically, lots of software can handle UTF-16, but it's a tiny minority that works with non-BMP characters correctly
  34. # [00:19] <ap> Hixie: I entirely share your vision of what's right
  35. # [00:20] <Hixie> my recommendation is to get people to ignore UTF-16 entirely
  36. # [00:20] <tantek> Hixie - thanks re: tz
  37. # [00:20] <Hixie> honestly if we could drop utf-16 support the way we dropped utf-32 support, i'd be all over it
  38. # [00:20] * TabAtkins still has a soft spot for utf-32.
  39. # [00:20] <tantek> The time-zone offset examples should show/prefer without : also
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  41. # [00:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins: a pretty wide one i would assume :-P
  42. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Narrower than my ints, at least.
  43. # [00:21] <ap> Hixie: anyway, I'm not asking to revert the spec to previously interoperable behavior at this point. I'd love to have a better explanation of why we broke this, which I don't.
  44. # [00:22] <Hixie> tantek: i made them use a variety (though i think most still have the colon), but i'll bear that in mind when adding more examples
  45. # [00:22] <tantek> ideally the examples should be exemplary
  46. # [00:22] <tantek> to teach authors well
  47. # [00:22] <Hixie> ap: the real reason is probably that i didn't even think to test it, because i had a lapse of judgement in which i assumed browsers wouldn't do something so silly
  48. # [00:23] <tantek> especially the time-zone by itself examples
  49. # [00:23] <Hixie> tantek: when it comes to syntax, the examples are intentionally varied in their use of syntax to indicate that all valid syntaxes are equally valid
  50. # [00:23] <Hixie> tantek: (this applies to everything, not just date formats)
  51. # [00:25] <tantek> I realize the spec as-is isn't for authors, however I do think the varied use of syntax should be biased towards syntax that results in fewer authoring mistakes / data quality errors over time
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  53. # [00:25] <tantek> sorry maybe i'm looking at an older snapshot
  54. # [00:25] <tantek> reloading
  55. # [00:26] <Hixie> a slight bias, agreed
  56. # [00:26] <Hixie> as i said, i'll make the examples lean more that way over time
  57. # [00:26] <tantek> yeah I was looking at an older version (multipage)
  58. # [00:26] <Hixie> i'm more concerned with getting the normative text of the w3c and whatwg specs converged again than worrying about example text :-)
  59. # [00:26] <tantek> looking at one-page version now
  60. # [00:26] <Hixie> multipage should be updated now, is it not?
  61. # [00:27] <Hixie> oh, i haven't uploaded it yet
  62. # [00:27] <Hixie> my bad
  63. # [00:27] <tantek> yeah one-page version looks better
  64. # [00:28] <Hixie> multipage should be updated in about 5 min
  65. # [00:29] <tantek> no problem - I'll stick with one page
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  68. # [00:35] <tantek> Hixie, I think I need to raise a 4th separate issue and change proposal to get the ISO week formats in there, no problem doing so, I'll take care of that this weekend.
  69. # [00:35] <tantek> (regarding Sam's email)
  70. # [00:36] <Hixie> your devotion to their process is quite entertaining
  71. # [00:36] <tantek> just trying to help the wheels rotate
  72. # [00:36] <Hixie> sam did say though that if everyone thought the patch was ok we could short-circuit it, which may help them rotate faster :-)
  73. # [00:37] <tantek> I'll email you a suggested replacement for the schema.org example because I think that's the remaining outstanding issue that Sam (re)raised.
  74. # [00:37] <tantek> (regarding your patch)
  75. # [00:40] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.0.78)
  76. # [00:41] <Hixie> tantek: there's an issue with an example?
  77. # [00:41] <Hixie> i couldn't find any of these issues in the issue list so i wasn't sure what sam meant to be honest
  78. # [00:42] <Hixie> i don't recall even seeing a bug regarding a schema.org example, so by process it surely can't be an issue yet
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  80. # [00:45] <tantek> it was raised as a comment in the bug on data
  81. # [00:45] <tantek> IIRC
  82. # [00:45] <Hixie> ah
  83. # [00:45] <Hixie> well the chairs told me not to touch that bug anymore so i haven't been reading it
  84. # [00:46] <Hixie> let me go have a look
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  86. # [00:48] <Hixie> oh, i see, it's because they don't want microdata in the examples, not because they don't wnat schema.org in the examples
  87. # [00:48] <tantek> huh? not AFAICT
  88. # [00:48] <tantek> the opposite
  89. # [00:48] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  90. # [00:49] <tantek> nothing wrong with microdata in the examples
  91. # [00:49] <tantek> the specific comment about schema.org was objecting to that
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  93. # [00:49] <Hixie> "In addtion to that, schema.org examples have no business in the W3C spec
  94. # [00:49] <Hixie> because microdata is not part of HTML5 ( just like RDFa isn't part of the spec
  95. # [00:49] <Hixie> )."
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  97. # [00:49] <Hixie> all the comments that contain "schema.org" seem to support this train of thought
  98. # [00:50] <Hixie> anyway i don't mind stripping all the schema.org examples from the proposal and not adding them to the w3c spec
  99. # [00:50] <Hixie> that's fine
  100. # [00:50] <Hixie> it's the normative text that i care about
  101. # [00:51] <Hixie> (it baffles me that the w3c continues to consider microdata to not be part of html)
  102. # [00:52] <tantek> Hixie, here's an attempt at a replacement example for the blog post that's not microformats nor schema.org
  103. # [00:52] <tantek> <article itemscope itemtype="http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4287">
  104. # [00:52] <tantek> <h1 itemprop="title">Small tasks</h1>
  105. # [00:52] <tantek> <footer>Published <time itemprop="published" datetime="2009-08-30">yesterday</time>.</footer>
  106. # [00:52] <tantek> <p itemprop="content">I put a bike bell on his bike.</p>
  107. # [00:52] <tantek> </article>
  108. # [00:52] <Hixie> that's still microdata though
  109. # [00:52] <tantek> sure, but it's not microdata that anyone is going to use in practice
  110. # [00:52] <tantek> I have a feeling that would resolve that particular objection
  111. # [00:52] <Hixie> which is fine by me and i'm happy to add the example to the whatwg spec, but my point is that the objection to those examples was over the use of microdata, not over the use of schema.org
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  115. # [00:56] <tantek> Hixie, I will point that Sam's response to you seemed to agree with my proposed resolution to the issue
  116. # [00:56] <tantek> which says "Provide one or more examples that show use with microformats, microdata, and RDFa"
  117. # [00:56] <Hixie> examples of what? <time>?
  118. # [00:56] <tantek> and "Prefer use of openly developed vocabularies/URLs (e.g. microformats.org, whatwg.org, w3.org) rather than those developed by one company (or just a few companies) like schema.org."
  119. # [00:57] <Hixie> what are you quoting from?
  120. # [00:57] <Hixie> i see nothing in that bug that supports this line of reasoning
  121. # [00:57] <tantek> Sam's email
  122. # [00:57] <Hixie> (note that using rdfa with <time> is impossible wince RDFa doesn't support <time> yet as far as i can tell)
  123. # [00:57] <tantek> where he quotes me from
  124. # [00:57] <Hixie> which one
  125. # [00:57] <Hixie> url?
  126. # [00:58] <tantek> most recent - let me get the url
  127. # [00:58] <Hixie> oh i see
  128. # [00:58] <Hixie> got it
  129. # [00:58] <Hixie> he's quoting you
  130. # [00:58] <Hixie> ok
  131. # [00:58] <tantek> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Nov/0184.html
  132. # [00:58] <tantek> yeah
  133. # [00:58] <Hixie> i suggest a simpler solution then
  134. # [00:58] <Hixie> remove that part of your change proposal :-P
  135. # [00:58] <Hixie> and i'll add whatever examples you want :-)
  136. # [00:59] <tantek> it was added because Sam complained that my change proposal didn't address enough issues
  137. # [00:59] <tantek> sorry, "complained" is a bit harsh. pointed out.
  138. # [00:59] <Hixie> so he wants you to address more issues, but if you address them in a way that has no bearing on what was actually raised, he's ok with it?
  139. # [01:00] <tantek> ah this about *data*
  140. # [01:00] <tantek> sorry
  141. # [01:00] <Hixie> working with the w3c hurts my brain
  142. # [01:00] <tantek> he's quoting from
  143. # [01:00] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/data_element
  144. # [01:00] <tantek> which is my attempt at a change proposal to add data
  145. # [01:00] <Hixie> it's not clear to me why we need any CPs here at all
  146. # [01:00] <Hixie> we have a patch
  147. # [01:01] <Hixie> unless someone has any objections, why can't the CP just be "apply the patch"
  148. # [01:01] <tantek> Hixie, I'm trying to interpret the issues in a way that will achieve consensus which is another way of saying minimizing friction so you can get on to more things
  149. # [01:01] <tantek> it started as one change proposal yes
  150. # [01:01] <Hixie> ok tell you what, i'll let you deal with the process as you wish, you tell me what to add to the spec
  151. # [01:01] <tantek> I've updated it / split it per feedback / guidance from Sam
  152. # [01:02] <tantek> in the interests of moving it through the HTML WG process
  153. # [01:02] <tantek> hoops etc.
  154. # [01:02] <Hixie> ok so what do you want me to add, and where
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  156. # [01:03] <tantek> (reloading one-page version)
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  158. # [01:06] <tantek> so the first change is to replace the schema.org example in the time section with the rfc4287 version I pasted above: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20111119#l-103
  159. # [01:06] <tantek> and yes, RDFa use of <time> is currently undefined
  160. # [01:07] <tantek> I'll monitor the RDFa discussions and when they've figured it out I can suggest an example for RDFa+time as well, but we don't have to wait for that.
  161. # [01:07] <Hixie> do you mind if i tweak the example contents a bit?
  162. # [01:07] <Hixie> also, i'm not sure it makes sense to use an RFC url as an itemtype, is an example.org URL ok instead?
  163. # [01:07] <tantek> sure - I was just picking something that somehow made sense
  164. # [01:08] <tantek> with a URL that people could look at
  165. # [01:08] <tantek> and see what terms/vocab was (re)used
  166. # [01:08] <tantek> it's a hypothetical example
  167. # [01:08] <tantek> example.org is better though - good idea
  168. # [01:08] <tantek> less likely to be blindly copy/pasted
  169. # [01:09] * Hixie looks at rfc487 instead of 4287 and gets very confused :-P
  170. # [01:09] <tantek> lol
  171. # [01:09] <Hixie> ah, atom
  172. # [01:09] <Hixie> makes sense
  173. # [01:09] <tantek> so sure. example.org/rfc4287 ;)
  174. # [01:09] <Hixie> and i already have a reference, awesome
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  176. # [01:15] <Hixie> ok i've marked the old schema.org example as being for the whatwg spec only, and added an example based on the one you suggested.
  177. # [01:15] <Hixie> should be up momentarily on the single-page copy
  178. # [01:16] <Hixie> tantek: k, new example is up, just before the one that's whatwg-only
  179. # [01:16] <tantek> reloading
  180. # [01:18] <tantek> Hixie, with all this example updating, would it be too much to ask to fix the hCalendar example as well since you're in that area?
  181. # [01:18] <tantek> (or does that mess up your bug resolution stats ;) )
  182. # [01:19] <tantek> (new fictional microdata vocab example looks good)
  183. # [01:19] * tantek goes to review data element while he's here on the single-page version
  184. # [01:22] <Hixie> if we can consider it part of the same issue, sure
  185. # [01:23] <Hixie> i don't want to be making changes to the spec that aren't in the htmlwg copy
  186. # [01:23] <tantek> yeah
  187. # [01:23] <Hixie> it's bad enough that we're diverged so much as it is (which was caused by having things in flight when the chairs decided to force mike to do his stuff)
  188. # [01:23] <tantek> trying to figure out how to make your one patch address multiple issues / change proposals simultaneously
  189. # [01:23] <tantek> yeah, apologies again for failing to realize how bad that was going to be and failing to object to the revert / and/or ask for a delay
  190. # [01:24] <tantek> (I was on that telcon)
  191. # [01:24] <Hixie> i'm still baffled by why the chairs decided to do it this way instead of following their process
  192. # [01:24] <Hixie> (i.e. reopen the bug)
  193. # [01:24] <tantek> I don't quite understand the revert request process
  194. # [01:24] <Hixie> but whatever
  195. # [01:24] <Hixie> i'm letting you deal with it :-)
  196. # [01:24] <tantek> fair enough
  197. # [01:24] <Hixie> gotta move to another room, one moment. then will examine the hcalendar thing.
  198. # [01:25] <tantek> ok
  199. # [01:31] <tantek> data element description seems fine
  200. # [01:31] <tantek> couple of notes
  201. # [01:31] <tantek> interesting that value attribute is required
  202. # [01:31] <tantek> I guess that makes sense
  203. # [01:31] <tantek> would there be any value in <data> without value?
  204. # [01:31] <tantek> or is that just a span?
  205. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> It's just <span> at that ponit.
  206. # [01:32] <tantek> the only minor difference I can think of:
  207. # [01:32] <tantek> span can be / is just used for styling hooks sometimes
  208. # [01:32] <tantek> data would be an explicit way of saying "this is data"
  209. # [01:32] <tantek> but that's pretty minor
  210. # [01:32] <tantek> not worth quibbling or changing the spec about
  211. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> The presence of @itemprop on <span> also says that.
  212. # [01:33] <tantek> let's see how web developers use <data>
  213. # [01:34] <tantek> TabAtkins, thanks for your updates to http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/data_element
  214. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> np
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  220. # [01:41] <tantek> updated with Contributors section
  221. # [01:54] <Hixie> tantek: ok, fixing hcalendar example
  222. # [01:54] <Hixie> should be up
  223. # [01:55] <Hixie> tantek: anything else?
  224. # [01:56] <Hixie> if not i'll reply to sam saying that i've worked with you to address his concerns
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  226. # [01:57] <tantek> Hixie thanks - checking
  227. # [01:57] <tantek> also, I just wrote up a fourth change proposal to handle the year week only dates
  228. # [01:57] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/time_input_match
  229. # [01:59] <Hixie> k
  230. # [01:59] <tantek> I believe the four change proposals I've written up at http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik#change_proposals now cover the edits in your patch
  231. # [01:59] <Hixie> cool
  232. # [01:59] <tantek> or vice versa
  233. # [02:00] <tantek> temporal order isn't that relevant right?
  234. # [02:00] <Hixie> yeah, i was gonna say, more vice versa :-)
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  236. # [02:01] <Hixie> do you want to reply to sam or should i?
  237. # [02:01] <tantek> I'll go ahead since I wrote up the 4th change proposal, as that will require raising a 4th issue to be addressed by the 4th change proposal
  238. # [02:02] <Hixie> cool, thanks
  239. # [02:02] * tantek digs through his email
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  244. # [02:18] <tantek> email sent. awaiting the 30 second "Undo" delay ;)
  245. # [02:18] <tantek> Hixie, since you've updated your patch, you may want to send that to the list
  246. # [02:19] <Hixie> k
  247. # [02:22] <tantek> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Nov/0186.html
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  255. # [02:30] <tantek-ipod> Ok going mobile. Will try to lurk for a while in case there are any other time related discussions. Maybe see some of you (sf folks) at Ilya's memorial tonight. (see plancast.com/t )
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  373. # [15:12] <adtykfhyipoh> hey can someone invite me to #php?
  374. # [15:14] <adtykfhyipoh> I need help with pp
  375. # [15:14] <adtykfhyipoh> *php
  376. # [15:19] <adtykfhyipoh> hello
  377. # [15:19] <adtykfhyipoh> please help
  378. # [15:19] <adtykfhyipoh> where are php file uploads stored by default? I need to set permissions
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  380. # [15:31] <erlehmann> wat
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  449. # [22:39] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.130.228) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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  455. # [22:57] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM1-112-98-133.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  456. # [22:58] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
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  459. # [23:11] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  460. # [23:14] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@2002:55e5:dbb7:0:b560:17a8:25d4:573f) (Quit: tomasf)
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  463. # [23:39] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-211-135-241-47.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  464. # [23:41] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
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  466. # [23:46] <Margle> paul_irish: cool talk bro
  467. # [23:46] <paul_irish> thxx
  468. # [23:55] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-152-131.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Remote host closed the connection)
  469. # [23:59] * Quits: zewt (~x@c-24-62-196-44.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  470. # Session Close: Sun Nov 20 00:00:00 2011

The end :)