/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-10 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 10 00:00:00 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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20. # [00:45] <Hixie> well accesskeys are proving a mite difficult
21. # [00:46] <Hixie> i guess i could just make commands Disabled if they are inert
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24. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> That makes sense, I suppose.
25. # [00:50] <Hixie> that would be awesome actually
26. # [00:50] <Hixie> it would automatically disable everything in a menu that referenced commands in that section
27. # [00:51] <Hixie> even if the menu wasn't inert
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41. # [01:18] <zewt> so, is feras planning to ignore everyone and go ahead with his broken design? welcome to the future, where web api design is still done by blunt coercion
42. # [01:19] <hober> zewt: ?
43. # [01:20] <zewt> oneTimeOnly
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45. # [01:22] <hober> oh, the blob url stuff?
46. # [01:22] <zewt> yeah
47. # [01:22] <hober> it's so broken
48. # [01:23] <hober> it makes me sad
49. # [01:23] <Hixie> implement it first and ship earlier
50. # [01:23] <Hixie> that's how it works
51. # [01:23] <zewt> basically it's the old story: microsoft implements something broken; microsoft goes "here's the api!"; everyone goes "this is broken, here's how to fix it"; microsoft puts fingers in ears and runs away
52. # [01:23] <Hixie> welcoem to the web
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54. # [01:26] <zewt> heh, tickets like this help make sure I don't waste time filing bugs on firefox https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=641509
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56. # [01:27] <zewt> basically about fifteen thousand people going "taking the message out of onbeforeunload breaks our stuff" and several explanations of why it's harmless to show it, and it gets ignored for a year then closed without reading any of it
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60. # [01:38] <Hixie> anyone know what i should do at the aria level for inert="" and inert subtrees generated by modal dialogs?
61. # [01:38] <Hixie> s/generated/established/
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63. # [01:38] <othermaciej> Hixie: is "inert" close in function to "disabled"?
64. # [01:39] <Hixie> yeah. i was thinking aria-disabled="" might work.
65. # [01:39] <Hixie> does "Used in Roles:All elements of the base markup" mean that it can be applied to elements regardless of role?
66. # [01:39] <othermaciej> yes
67. # [01:40] <Hixie> ok, aria-disabled it is.
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75. # [02:00] <Hixie> what exception should i throw if you try to showModal() a dialog that's already showing?
76. # [02:00] <Hixie> (if you show() a dialog that's already showing, i just do it. but it seems likely that showModal()ing twice is a bug.)
77. # [02:04] <dbaron> what makes it the same? Having the same URL? (Including query and hash?)
78. # [02:04] <Hixie> same <dialog> element
79. # [02:04] <Hixie> (this is not showModalDialog())
80. # [02:04] <Hixie> (it's <dialog>.showModal())
81. # [02:05] <dbaron> ah
82. # [02:06] <Hixie> i guess NotSupportedError
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91. # [02:13] <zewt> "not supported" depending on state sort of seems odd
92. # [02:14] <Hixie> InvalidStateError then?
93. # [02:14] <zewt> InvalidStateE...yes
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95. # [02:14] <Hixie> k
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104. # [02:33] <Hixie> ok, <dialog> is taking shape
105. # [02:34] <Hixie> probably be done tomorrow, if no hidden surprises come up
106. # [02:34] <tantek> hidden surprise dialogs are no good
107. # [02:34] <Hixie> heh
108. # [02:35] <Hixie> oh, wait, i forgot about hte magic form stuff
109. # [02:35] <Hixie> that'll take longer
110. # [02:37] <Hixie> <form method=dialog> <input type=submit> </form>
111. # [02:37] <Hixie> where the submit button closes the dialog and sets dialog.returnValue to submit button's value
112. # [02:38] <Hixie> with all the form validation stuff happening as well of course
113. # [02:38] <Hixie> hmm
114. # [02:39] <Hixie> or i guess we could just have them use <form action="javascript:void(0)" onsubmit="parentElement.close()">
115. # [02:39] <Hixie> but that seems lame
116. # [02:40] <Hixie> then again, maybe instead of method=dialog, we should have method=none so it would work outside dialogs too
117. # [02:40] <Hixie> and just do the closing-dialog behaviour be a magic thing if you happen to be inside a form?
118. # [02:40] <Hixie> ok i'll think about it. if anyone has any ideas, paste them here or on the wiki.
119. # [02:40] <Hixie> bbl.
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138. # [03:40] <tantek> Hixie - regarding having a form submit button close the dialog etc., could we do the same for modeless pop-up-window "dialogs"? That is, have some way for a form in a child window to close the window upon successful submission?
139. # [03:40] <tantek> The specific use-cases I'm thinking of here are quite similar to the dialog use-cases, e.g. Plancast.com pops-up a twitter sign-in window, and many tweet buttons/links also pop-up a window for the user to complete their tweet and submit. Would be great if that submit could somehow close the child window.
140. # [03:41] <tantek> (without requiring JS to be one for it to work, note Twitter's tweet actions themselves work without JS but the pop-up windows still require the user to manually close them when done)
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166. # [05:40] <zewt> site:whatwg.org/specs gives me tons of links under http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2009-10-27/, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/.w3c-html-core/ and other noise now ... wish thsoe would either be blocked from search engines or moved out of /specs
167. # [05:45] <Hixie> if you give me a robots.txt that blocks what you want to block, i'll happily add it
168. # [05:54] <zewt> well, I have no idea what all of the stuff under there is, heh
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179. # [06:57] <zewt> i find it painfully discouraging that i actually have to spend time arguing for not baking manual word-wrapping into a text format in 2012
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181. # [06:58] <zewt> feels like i'm trying to argue a language designer out of putting line numbers on every line and having GOTO N be the primary form of flow control
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191. # [07:33] <WeirdAl> rniwa: ping on UndoManager spec... what DOM mutation events / observer notifications are required to fire on undoing an action?
192. # [07:34] <WeirdAl> DOMAttrModified & friends
193. # [07:34] <rniwa> WeirdAl: hi. yes.
194. # [07:34] <WeirdAl> :) I'm wondering if they're all required
195. # [07:34] <rniwa> WeirdAl: mutations made by the undo manager are regular DOM mutations
196. # [07:35] <rniwa> WeirdAl: they're.
197. # [07:35] <rniwa> WeirdAl: however, DOM mutation events are deprecated API so I can be careless.
198. # [07:35] <WeirdAl> mutation observers are replacing them
199. # [07:35] <WeirdAl> so, no, you can't ;)
200. # [07:35] <rniwa> WeirdAl: they should certainly be included in the mutation records that mutation observers receive
201. # [07:37] <WeirdAl> Should there be at least a token mention about mutation observers in section 3.1?
202. # [07:38] * WeirdAl is planning on implementing a "partial DOM" which is non-compliant in many respects, but UndoManager he'll probably want to fully implement
203. # [07:42] <rniwa> WeirdAl: that makes sense.
204. # [07:42] <rniwa> WeirdAl: jsdom?
205. # [07:42] <rniwa> WeirdAl: or dom.js?
206. # [07:42] <WeirdAl> neither
207. # [07:42] <rniwa> oh, i see.
208. # [07:42] <WeirdAl> and no, not envjs
209. # [07:42] <WeirdAl> I'm going off the deep end... I've been forced to conclude that I pretty much have to write my own for a special purpose
210. # [07:42] * rniwa thinking maybe I can use WeirdAl's partial dom for https://plus.google.com/105748986001435560355/posts/aDV61jgSNXj
211. # [07:43] <WeirdAl> forget it, you won't want it :)
212. # [07:43] <rniwa> WeirdAl: ?
213. # [07:43] <WeirdAl> it won't be implementing HTML :D
214. # [07:43] <rniwa> WeirdAl: I see.
215. # [07:43] <rniwa> that's interesting
216. # [07:43] <WeirdAl> at least, not for probably a year or so
217. # [07:43] <WeirdAl> I'm looking more at the XML world... it's cleaner :)
218. # [07:44] <rniwa> I see.
219. # [07:44] <rniwa> WeirdAl: but I hear that XML world is doomed
220. # [07:44] <WeirdAl> maybe it is
221. # [07:44] <WeirdAl> but I think that's because we just don't have good tools to edit it
222. # [07:45] <WeirdAl> we have tools
223. # [07:45] <WeirdAl> they're just not that good at it
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226. # [07:46] <WeirdAl> more specifically, the XML languages we humans are most likely to edit - XHTML, MathML, SVG, XUL, XBL, etc. - those are the ones for which the tools frankly need a lot of work
227. # [07:48] <rniwa> true
228. # [07:48] <rniwa> WeirdAl: I want a good editor for MathML.
229. # [07:49] <WeirdAl> best I've seen for free is Amaya, and it's rather painful to work with
230. # [07:49] <rniwa> yeah...
231. # [07:49] <WeirdAl> believe me, I'm working on a new kind of XML editor in my spare time, one where new XML languages are literally like Firefox addons
232. # [07:50] <WeirdAl> but to get there, I'm trying to build the tools to build those addons
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235. # [07:54] <zcorpan> Hixie: the status box in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/editing.html#editing-0 looks like a bogus edit
236. # [07:58] <rniwa> WeirdAl: i'll look forward to it :)
237. # [07:59] <Hixie> zcorpan: feel free to fix it :-)
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239. # [08:07] <zcorpan> Hixie: i don't know what the previous state was... but, changed to something less inaccurate
240. # [08:07] <Hixie> thanks
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258. # [09:52] <annevk> I wish the source code of the spider from http://dotnetdotcom.org/ was available so we could create a fresh index
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267. # [10:19] <annevk> what's the best way to represent an ordered dictionary in JSON?
268. # [10:20] <annevk> it's about mapping one offset to another
269. # [10:21] <annevk> e.g. 0:80, 36:A5, 50:B8, ..
270. # [10:21] <annevk> nested array?
271. # [10:21] <annevk> seems kind of ugly
272. # [10:22] <othermaciej> array containing (the dictionary, an array of the keys in order)
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274. # [10:25] <annevk> I guess since the keys are sortable I could also do that during lookup...
275. # [10:27] <annevk> kind of annoying that only gb18030 needs this special kind of index whereas all other encodings can do with a simple index
276. # [10:28] <annevk> China, you're annoying!
277. # [10:30] <annevk> back later
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286. # [10:54] <david_carlisle> rniwa: what kind of environment are you looking for an editor? personally I have a biased view on the worls and use emacs for everything, but firefox addon http://www.maths-informatique-jeux.com/blog/frederic/?post/2010/11/14/Mozilla-MathML-Add-ons is quite promising, or shockingly enough, Word isn't bad, there are several others it depends what you want...
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288. # [11:11] <Ms2ger> Well done, public-webapps!
289. # [11:11] <Ms2ger> January to March 2012 ... 1337 messages
290. # [11:12] <annevk> nice
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292. # [11:19] <annevk> since the gb18030 index is so different from other indexes, should I give it a different name?
293. # [11:19] <annevk> and if so, suggestions?
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297. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: can you remind me, was somebody working already on testharness.js-enabling the canvas test suite?
298. # [11:30] <Ms2ger> Indeed
299. # [11:30] <Ms2ger> I was!
300. # [11:30] <Ms2ger> It's in a bug somewhere
301. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> oh cool
302. # [11:30] <Ms2ger> Waiting for Philip`
303. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> w3c bug?
304. # [11:30] <Ms2ger> Yep
305. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> oh
306. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> waiting on Philip` to just land your changes?
307. # [11:31] <Ms2ger> To see if it makes sense to him
308. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> OK
309. # [11:31] * MikeSmith looks for the bug
310. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> found it
311. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14191
312. # [11:33] <zcorpan> annevk: index-gb18030-Y-U-DIFFERENT???.txt
313. # [11:37] <annevk> heh
314. # [11:37] <annevk> so the way gb18030 works is that there are 207 ranges
315. # [11:38] <annevk> and by computing a number from the four bytes sequences
316. # [11:38] <annevk> the ranges are basically offsets
317. # [11:39] <annevk> consisting of "offset, code point offset"
318. # [11:39] <annevk> you then find the last range whose offset is equal or less than the computed index
319. # [11:39] <annevk> and then you do computed index - offset + code point offset
320. # [11:39] <annevk> and you have a code point
321. # [11:40] <annevk> on top of that you exclude computed indexes between 39419 and 189000 and anything greater than 1237575
322. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> the webgl test runner is nice
323. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> https://cvs.khronos.org/svn/repos/registry/trunk/public/webgl/sdk/tests/webgl-conformance-tests.html
324. # [11:40] <annevk> so I guess I'll just call it index-gb18030 like the others and explain in prose look works differently
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327. # [11:41] <annevk> and in JSON I'll store it as an object of which you need to sort the keys yourself
328. # [11:41] <annevk> and then publish the JSON for the indexes as indexes.json
329. # [11:41] <annevk> and publish the index.py which generates the index-*.txt files
330. # [11:41] <annevk> merge the single-byte encodings into it
331. # [11:42] <annevk> and have a separate encodings.json which lists the encoding names and labels
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333. # [11:46] <annevk> http://i.imgur.com/vynW8.png o_O
334. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: btw, is MathML support still not enabled in Chrome?
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336. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> annevk: heh
337. # [11:47] <charlvn> annevk: it's a pity we can't see the nationality of those people on the pic... i bet i know what the results will be :)
338. # [11:48] <Ms2ger> Dutch? :)
339. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: OK, I see that it's still not
340. # [11:49] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, the webgl test harness, otoh, sucks badly
341. # [11:49] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: No, but there is a new person working on the mathml in the webkit codebase and google people are in teh reviewing loop this time, so things are looking better
342. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: yeah, I got about 10% through it and it crashes ever time
343. # [11:49] <Ms2ger> Blame your graphics driver
344. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> crashes in every browser I have tried with so far
345. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: given that it's enabled in Safari, I wonder why not in Chrome. Is the issue that it's too incomplete at this point?
346. # [11:51] <Ms2ger> Because Chrome has *some* quality standards?
347. # [11:51] <charlvn> Ms2ger: i had an idea of something a bit further west ;)
348. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: pages like http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/demo/texvsmml.html seem to mostly render as expected
349. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> in Safari
350. # [11:51] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: The stated reason is that it did not have relevant security review, whether there was actual security concerns or if that is just teh trump card to play to avoid doing anything I am not in a position to say:-0
351. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
352. # [11:52] <Ms2ger> annevk, hmm, fascinating how you were just looking at that page :)
353. # [11:53] <annevk> recent changes to the WHATWG Wiki is one of the few speed dial things I have
354. # [11:53] <annevk> so sometimes when I open a new tab I click it
355. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: found in source of WebGL test page: <script src="../../resources/js-test-pre.js"/>
356. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> self-closing tag
357. # [11:54] <Ms2ger> Yeah
358. # [11:54] <Ms2ger> They come from webkit
359. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> not a good sign
360. # [11:54] <zcorpan> webkit still does that?
361. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> hmm, that test runner doesn't think WebKit nightly supports WebGL
362. # [11:57] <annevk> is
363. # [11:57] <annevk> "this index works different from ..."
364. # [11:57] <annevk> or "this index works differently from ..."
365. # [11:57] <Ms2ger> than? ;)
366. # [11:58] <annevk> This index works differently from all others as ...
367. # [11:58] <annevk> This index works differently than all others as ...
368. # [11:58] <annevk> ?
369. # [11:58] <annevk> don't think so
370. # [11:58] <annevk> well maybe
371. # [11:59] * MikeSmith finds he has to do defaults write com.apple.Safari WebKitWebGLEnabled -bool YES
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374. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> fwiw, this is the crashy test: https://cvs.khronos.org/svn/repos/registry/trunk/public/webgl/sdk/tests/conformance/context/context-creation-and-destruction.html
375. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> WebKit is the only browser I've tried that it doesn't crash in
376. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: btw a couple of your apis-in-html-documents tests crash validator.nu when I try to validate them
377. # [12:08] <Ms2ger> Nice
378. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> figured out the fix already
379. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=917
380. # [12:09] <Ms2ger> Also, is http://w3c-test.org/shepherd/ ever going to do something else than print an error message?
381. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> talk to Berjon
382. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> I didn't set that up
383. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> and I'm not supposed to work on the framework code these days
384. # [12:10] <Ms2ger> :(
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387. # [12:16] <annevk> Ms2ger: http://www.answers.com/topic/different
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389. # [12:17] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: messages about attributes on <input> really needs improving it seems
390. # [12:19] <charlvn> lol: http://bugs.jquery.com/ticket/10891
391. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so last time I thought about how to solve that the thought I remember having is that it'd be best to do it in the JS for the Web UI
392. # [12:19] <Ms2ger> Oh, lovely
393. # [12:19] <Ms2ger> if ( !window.opera ) {
394. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: why do you mention it? somebody raised a new bug?
395. # [12:20] <Ms2ger> This ringmark thing does seem like a good idea
396. # [12:20] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Why wouldn't you do browser sniffing?
397. # [12:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: someone on help@whatwg
398. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> ok
399. # [12:21] <Ms2ger> I was already assuming it was useless
400. # [12:21] <Ms2ger> Now, I'm certain
401. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I can try to write up something for it this week.
402. # [12:21] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: cool
403. # [12:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: nice IE behavior
404. # [12:22] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: ringmark checks for window.opera?
405. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> Yep
406. # [12:23] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ?
407. # [12:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the <input name="nodeName"> thing
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409. # [12:24] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: :-(
410. # [12:24] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i'm missing context :-)
411. # [12:24] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Where is the sniffing?
412. # [12:25] <Ms2ger> http://rng.io/dist/rings.js
413. # [12:26] <charlvn> the nodeName thing is strange because i had a similar problem and ended up hacking jquery too in a slightly different way https://gist.github.com/2350137
414. # [12:26] <charlvn> (i am stuck with using some third party libs)
415. # [12:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan: oops. I misread who said what. the jquery link was given by charlvn
416. # [12:27] <zcorpan> ah
417. # [12:36] <annevk> teehee
418. # [12:36] <annevk> all encodings now have a defined decoder algorithm
419. # [12:36] <annevk> including gb18030
420. # [12:36] <annevk> of course, there's a few bugs
421. # [12:36] <annevk> but still
422. # [12:49] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
423. # [12:53] <zcorpan> nice
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428. # [13:05] <bga_> gsnedders in Opera new Date(NaN).toJSON() throw RangeError but according spec it should return null
429. # [13:09] <gsnedders> toJSON?
430. # [13:09] <gsnedders> Oh, that does exist, but only on Date.
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436. # [13:50] <annevk> david_carlisle: btw, I'm pretty close to having a single JSON file that has the indexes for all encodings
437. # [13:50] <annevk> david_carlisle: along the lines you suggested ages ago
438. # [13:51] <annevk> david_carlisle: it took me a while to get the proper separation sorted out, as I didn't read up much history and just reverse engineered everything :)
439. # [13:52] <david_carlisle> annevk: any more jobs I could give you?;-)
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442. # [13:56] <annevk> david_carlisle: heh, if they're as fascinating as this one, sure
443. # [13:57] <annevk> this standard is probably the coolest thing I've worked on to date
444. # [13:57] <zcorpan> cooler than css namespaces? :-)
445. # [13:59] * zcorpan wishes window.documetn was defined and returned window.document
446. # [13:59] <zcorpan> i always make that typo
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448. # [14:03] <annevk> zcorpan: I'm not sarcastic, I really like working on the Encoding Standard
449. # [14:03] * Ms2ger puts up the sarcasm sign anyway
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452. # [14:05] <annevk> heh
453. # [14:05] <annevk> I mean, if I didn't, why would I be doing it?
454. # [14:05] <zcorpan> oh, i didn't think you were being sarcastic
455. # [14:06] <zcorpan> anyway, document.head.outerHTML = 'x' is weird
456. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> Fascinating
457. # [14:07] <zcorpan> or '<link>x'
458. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, are you writing tests? :)
459. # [14:08] <zcorpan> i was gonna write tests for outerHTML in xml, but stumbles upon this thing when intending to check what happened when setting outerHTML on root in opera
460. # [14:08] <zcorpan> s/s/d/
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463. # [14:19] <hsivonen> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-158-objection-poll/results looks like a success for the Decision Policy. </sarcasm>
464. # [14:20] <zcorpan> LOL
465. # [14:22] <Ms2ger> That's pretty much the best case scenario in terms of wasting people's time
466. # [14:25] <hsivonen> hmm. LLVM is much larger than I thought
467. # [14:25] <hsivonen> in terms of number of source files and compilation time
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491. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> annevk: congrats on getting all the encodings defined
492. # [15:16] <annevk> now the encoders...
493. # [15:16] <annevk> and the bugs
494. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> and the test suite
495. # [15:17] <annevk> you keep thinking you're at 80 percent, but it's barely 8
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498. # [15:22] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html#concept-serialize-xml - instead of throwing for ]]> in text node with serializeAsCDATA, i think you should serialize a cdata section up to the first "]]>" not including the ">", then emit the rest (including the ">") as text
499. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> File a bug? :)
500. # [15:23] <zcorpan> done
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503. # [15:30] <annevk> can't believe that in 2012 I have to write this in Python
504. # [15:30] <annevk> def char(cp):
505. # [15:30] <annevk> if cp > 0xFFFF:
506. # [15:30] <annevk> hi, lo = divmod(cp-0x10000, 0x400)
507. # [15:30] <annevk> return unichr(0xD800+hi) + unichr(0xDC00+lo)
508. # [15:30] <annevk> return unichr(cp)
509. # [15:30] <annevk> but then you need to do the same in JavaScript I guess
510. # [15:30] <annevk> divmod is a pretty neat built-in though
511. # [15:31] <annevk> david_carlisle: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/indexes.json
512. # [15:32] <annevk> normative indexes look a little prettier now
513. # [15:32] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/index-big5.txt
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515. # [15:34] <annevk> where if you do some copy/pasting/searching you'll find browsers have many embarrassing font issues
516. # [15:36] <david_carlisle> annevk: lovely! would be lovelier still in xml of course (but joking aside, looks good and .txt version looks nice too)
517. # [15:36] <annevk> XML haha
518. # [15:36] <annevk> they tried that
519. # [15:36] <annevk> it got way complex
520. # [15:37] <annevk> to actually get the simple gb18030 mappings I parsed some XML with a regular expression :p
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522. # [15:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: Seem to be going for your recommendation, so thanks!
523. # [15:42] <annevk> zcorpan: you could also do (WindowProxy or MessagePort)?
524. # [15:42] <annevk> zcorpan: might be cleaner
525. # [15:42] <annevk> zcorpan: especially since these can be constructed via dictionary where you'll need to do some type checking
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528. # [15:46] <david_carlisle> annevk: do you need the double negative here "A byte never consists of more, nor less than exactly eight bits" or is this just "A byte consists of exactly eight bits" (if there is a subtle distinction. could you make it less subtle:-)
529. # [15:48] <zcorpan> annevk: oh, didn't know that worked for return values
530. # [15:48] <annevk> david_carlisle: fair enough
531. # [15:48] <Tuju> i've problem with xml namespace and getting xslt to match its elements
532. # [15:49] <Tuju> if i remove all xmls etc attributes from xml root tag, it works, but with them it doesn't.
533. # [15:49] <Tuju> how do i specify the namespace into xslt ?
534. # [15:49] <annevk> use xmlns:prefix=namespace
535. # [15:50] <annevk> and then use prefix in the XPath expressions?
536. # [15:50] <annevk> dunno though, it's been at least half a decade since I played with XSLT
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538. # [15:51] <Tuju> hmmm
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540. # [15:51] <david_carlisle> Tuju: as annevk said, or if you are using xslt2 set xpath-default-namespace then you don't need a prefix (this is the wrong channel for xslt questions though, no one here except me likes xml at all :-(
541. # [15:51] <Tuju> annevk: i think you're in something, since after googling i saw something similar too, but haven't really found any good example.
542. # [15:51] <zcorpan> hmm. i checked the first search result ddg gave me for xslt namespace prefix. opera crashed. clearly opera doesn't want me to spend time reading about this subject
543. # [15:52] <annevk> david_carlisle: robbertbroersma does, but he's not here right now
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545. # [15:52] <david_carlisle> annevk: I rest my case:-)
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550. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> all the git docs are generated using xslt, including the man pages / "git help foo" output
551. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> take a look at the source of e.g. /usr/share/man/man1/git-pull.1.gz
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553. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> I know because I wrote the xslt that's used to generate them
554. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> that said, I still don't count as somebody who likes xslt
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556. # [16:04] <annevk> foolip: you around?
557. # [16:04] <foolip> annevk, yep
558. # [16:04] <annevk> foolip: fwiw, the index data is now in the spec
559. # [16:05] <annevk> foolip: I'm gonna take a look again at big5 now
560. # [16:05] <annevk> foolip: to make it up to date with the thread
561. # [16:05] <foolip> annevk, which index data, the two missing points?
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563. # [16:06] <annevk> foolip: sorry, the JSON file is now in the repository
564. # [16:06] <foolip> annevk, ah
565. # [16:06] <foolip> good
566. # [16:06] <annevk> foolip: I have not updated the spec yet with respect to the big5 changes suggested as I lost track of what was being suggested after Øistein joined
567. # [16:07] <foolip> annevk, I emailed public-html-ig-zh@w3.org asking for some souble checking: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/2012Apr/0001.html
568. # [16:07] <foolip> useful reply (in English) at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/2012Apr/0002.html
569. # [16:07] <foolip> it looks like at least one of the pages I looked at depends on the Firefox Big5 extensions, in other words that user must have posted using Firefox
570. # [16:07] <foolip> however, AFAICT there's nothing that can be done to save it
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572. # [16:08] <foolip> annevk, I'll wait for a few more days to see if more replies come in and then summarize the changes that I agree should be made
573. # [16:08] <foolip> It'll be fun to see if GBK and GB18030 are just as messy
574. # [16:09] <Ms2ger> "fun"
575. # [16:09] <foolip> BTW, I think we should merge them as well, we're bound to find pages labeled as GBK which are in fact GB18030
576. # [16:09] <annevk> gbk and gb18030 were easy
577. # [16:09] <annevk> apart from a flag they're effectively merged
578. # [16:09] <annevk> see the spec
579. # [16:09] <foolip> I've seen it, and the note
580. # [16:10] <foolip> Is there a downside to not having the flag?
581. # [16:10] <annevk> I removed the flag for the euro sign already
582. # [16:10] <annevk> dunno about doing it for the rest
583. # [16:10] <annevk> I guess we could
584. # [16:10] <foolip> what does IE do?
585. # [16:10] <annevk> but I don't think any implementation has them merged at this point
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587. # [16:11] <foolip> annevk, have you tried to search for pages labeled as GBK that would decode with less errors if treated as GB18030?
588. # [16:11] <annevk> no I haven't
589. # [16:12] <annevk> I've just checked what browsers did today and specced that, minus PUA
590. # [16:12] <foolip> OK, fair enough
591. # [16:12] <annevk> it's easy to merge though and I've no objections if implementors want to do that
592. # [16:12] <foolip> I'm interested in doing some Big5 tests, is it http://dotnetdotcom.org/ I should be using?
593. # [16:13] <annevk> we'd need to decide on whether to call it gbk or gb18030 and that's about it
594. # [16:13] <annevk> foolip: you can only use that to find URLs
595. # [16:13] <annevk> foolip: you then need to fetch the URLs yourself because their data is UTF-8 normalized
596. # [16:13] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
597. # [16:13] <annevk> foolip: I'll wait with updating big5 then if you're going to post a summary later
598. # [16:14] <foolip> annevk, do you already have the index file so that you could easily send me a list of URLs that claim to be big5* and gb*?
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600. # [16:14] <annevk> no zcorpan does, but last time I had to extract the URLs out of that data myself
601. # [16:14] <annevk> I should still have that extract URLs script though
602. # [16:14] <foolip> that would be useful, yeah
603. # [16:16] <annevk> urls = []
604. # [16:16] <annevk> url = ""
605. # [16:16] <annevk> state = "start"
606. # [16:16] <annevk> for b in open("big5-with-urls.txt", "rb").read():
607. # [16:16] <annevk> if state == "start" and b == "\x0A":
608. # [16:16] <annevk> state = "url"
609. # [16:16] <annevk> elif state == "url":
610. # [16:16] <annevk> if b in "\x0A\x0D":
611. # [16:16] <annevk> state = "start"
612. # [16:16] <annevk> url = ""
613. # [16:16] <annevk> elif b == "\x00":
614. # [16:16] <annevk> state = "appendurl"
615. # [16:16] <annevk> urlfile.write(url + "\n")
616. # [16:16] <annevk> big5-with-urls.txt was the result of a grep zcorpan did
617. # [16:16] <foolip> zcorpan, do you have big5-with-urls.txt or the script to produce it?
618. # [16:17] <annevk> oh that script is not complete
619. # [16:17] <annevk> I'll email it to www-archive
620. # [16:17] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/dump/big5-with-urls.txt.zip ?
621. # [16:18] <foolip> zcorpan, would it be possible for you to grep me a gb-with-urls.txt.zip as well?
622. # [16:18] <zcorpan> should i do a grep for gb* ?
623. # [16:18] <foolip> that would be great, yes
624. # [16:18] <foolip> are you catching both Content-Type header and <meta charset>?
625. # [16:18] <zcorpan> yep
626. # [16:18] <foolip> cool
627. # [16:18] <zcorpan> do you want all the labels under "Legacy multi-byte Chinese (simplified) encodings" in the encoding spec?
628. # [16:20] <foolip> zcorpan, chinese, csgb2312, ... yeah, I guess that's best
629. # [16:20] <foolip> although I've never seen half of them
630. # [16:22] <zcorpan> LANG=C grep -aEizB2 "(content(-type[[:space:]]*:|=[[:space:]]*[\"']?)[[:space:]]*text/html[[:space:]]*;|<meta[[:space:]])[[:space:]]*charset[[:space:]]*=[[:space:]]*[\"']?(chinese|csgb2312|csiso58gb231280|gb2312|gb_2312|gb_2312-80|gbk|iso-ir-58|x-gbk|gb18030|hz-gb-2312)" web200904 > gb-with-urls.txt
631. # [16:22] <zcorpan> ping me in a few minutes and i'll upload it
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633. # [16:23] <foolip> zcorpan, is that dump from 2009 as the filename would suggest?
634. # [16:23] <annevk> yes
635. # [16:24] <zcorpan> yep
636. # [16:24] <foolip> so basically dotnetdotcom.org is dead?
637. # [16:24] <annevk> probably
638. # [16:24] <foolip> too bad archive.org doesn't have some kind of index or "random page" function :(
639. # [16:24] <annevk> I was saying earlier today it would be great to have a new source of data
640. # [16:25] <annevk> per http://whois.domaintools.com/dotnetdotcom.org they have been maintaining their registration at least
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643. # [16:30] <zcorpan> that ended up being 862MB (before zipping) -- lemme run the python script
644. # [16:34] * zcorpan needs to free memory
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651. # [16:43] <annevk> Push SMS again
652. # [16:43] <zcorpan> wow the python script is slow
653. # [16:44] <annevk> well, you just fed it an order of magnitude more data than it worked on originally
654. # [16:45] <annevk> prolly needs some time to get adjusted to these harsh conditions
655. # [16:45] <zcorpan> i think it finished now
656. # [16:45] <zcorpan> after about 7 minutes of cpu time
657. # [16:45] <annevk> I'm surprised that actually worked
658. # [16:45] <annevk> most have used a hell of a lot of memory
659. # [16:47] <zcorpan> foolip: http://simon.html5.org/dump/gb-urls.txt.zip
660. # [16:47] <zcorpan> annevk: 8GB, though the script didn't seem to use more than 1
661. # [16:48] <foolip> zcorpan, great, so that's just a list of the URLs, then?
662. # [16:48] <zcorpan> foolip: yep
663. # [16:48] <foolip> thanks, I'll have a look at it tonight!
664. # [16:48] <annevk> zcorpan: seems about right
665. # [16:49] <annevk> zcorpan: it reads the whole fill into memory
666. # [16:49] <zcorpan> yeah
667. # [16:49] <annevk> zcorpan: that's probably what takes a long time
668. # [16:49] <annevk> zcorpan: reading half a megabyte of encoding data is already slowish
669. # [16:50] <annevk> well, reading and parsing as JSON
670. # [16:50] <zcorpan> i found a python script that defined an iterator that could split on zero bytes the other day, but then found i didn't need it. i guess i should look for it again, it'll probably be useful later
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676. # [16:57] <zcorpan> maybe something from http://bytes.com/topic/python/answers/41987-canonical-way-dealing-null-separated-lines
677. # [16:58] <zcorpan> but that doesn't have the indentation
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690. # [17:12] <Tuju> annevk: i still can't get that namespace to work
691. # [17:12] <Tuju> it's tricky
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693. # [17:14] <annevk> Tuju: on xsl:stylesheet you declare xmlns:x="yournamespace"
694. # [17:14] <Tuju> annevk: what i read, plain xmlns="example.com" would do default namespace, right?
695. # [17:14] <annevk> Tuju: then in e.g. xsl:template you use match="//x:myElement"
696. # [17:14] <Tuju> and then i would avoid writing that x: everywhere.
697. # [17:14] <annevk> Tuju: no that's not how it works
698. # [17:15] <Tuju> but it works in examples that they've used in many pages
699. # [17:15] <Tuju> they don't write that x: in every xslt tag.
700. # [17:15] <annevk> in XSLT?
701. # [17:15] <Tuju> yup yup
702. # [17:15] <annevk> maybe they're using XPath 2.0
703. # [17:15] <annevk> dunno about that
704. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> Tuju: http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list/ is a good place to get xslt help
705. # [17:16] <Tuju> http://linux.dd.com.au/wiki/XSLT_Tutorial for example that one
706. # [17:16] <zcorpan> Tuju: if it worked when you removed xmlns, it means it matched against the no namespace
707. # [17:16] <Tuju> annevk: that even doesn't declare the default one.
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709. # [17:17] <Tuju> i don't mind if i have one if it's been fixed once as default and doesn't need to be written into every tag.
710. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> Tuju: that example input document is not in any namespace man
711. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> that's why the stylesheet doesn't need to use namespace prefixes
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713. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> maybe you should just remove the namespace declarations from whatever your input source is
714. # [17:19] <Tuju> MikeSmith: but if my input doc has a namespace, can't i just set it into default in my xslt?
715. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> not in xslt 1.0 you can't, no
716. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> or xpath 1.0
717. # [17:19] <Tuju> if i just do one namespace declaration in input doc, i'd like to do same way in xslt too.
718. # [17:20] <Tuju> MikeSmith: so there is no way around having that x: (orwhatever) in every god damn tag then?
719. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> yeah there is
720. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> make your input source not be in any namespace
721. # [17:21] <Tuju> yes, but i rather not to do that.
722. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> yeah well
723. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> life is full of choices
724. # [17:21] <Tuju> is there a way to get around it with xsltproc options?
725. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> blame xml
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727. # [17:21] <Tuju> i don't want to, not yet. :)
728. # [17:22] <MikeSmith> Tuju: no way to work around it with options in xsltproc no
729. # [17:22] <Tuju> you ruined my day :)
730. # [17:22] <Tuju> with facts.
731. # [17:22] <Tuju> maybe i start writing those damn x:'s then...
732. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> I could actually be wrong
733. # [17:23] <Tuju> xml - solution if you really want to write chars a lot...
734. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> you should not just trust anything I say about xslt
735. # [17:23] <Tuju> MikeSmith: so far the empiric evidence implies that you're right.
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737. # [17:24] <MikeSmith> as david_carlisle pointed out, this is the last places you should turned to for quality help with xslt
738. # [17:25] <Tuju> :)
739. # [17:25] <Tuju> i'm afraid that this is the best in irc
740. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> annevk: so what more needs to be defined about directionality in the Notifications spec?
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742. # [17:32] <annevk> general FYI: I changed terminology around indexes slightly
743. # [17:32] <annevk> an index now is a list of pointers and corresponding code points
744. # [17:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: there was a thread on that on the list
745. # [17:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: I haven't really taken the time to study that yet
746. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> ok
747. # [17:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: in addition, there's quite a few flaws with the draft
748. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> anyway, I pinged Richard about it
749. # [17:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: I think the i18n guys raised it
750. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> oh
751. # [17:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: e.g. just says "object" instead of defining a dictionary
752. # [17:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: doesn't use the proper HTML terminology
753. # [17:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: I wonder if I should take some time to rewrite it using Anolis
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755. # [17:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: and fix most obvious bugs
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760. # [17:36] <david_carlisle> annevk: you should write it in xmlspec xml and process it with xslt, You can always ping MikeSmith for any xslt help required
761. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> I learned all the xslt I know from reading and copying and hacking Norm Walsh's code
762. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> annevk: you dudes need to get over your obsession with anolis
763. # [17:38] <annevk> david_carlisle: so much trolling :)
764. # [17:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: there's nothing better
765. # [17:38] <annevk> maybe a hybrid of anolis/respec would be, but that doesn't exist
766. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> let's fix respec, if it's not doing what we need
767. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> pytho-reactionaries living in the past man
768. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> 2012 is a JS world
769. # [17:39] <Ms2ger> So, first, make it work so that it works with JS disabled
770. # [17:40] <annevk> it's more that between writing specs and writing a tool to write specs, I prefer the former
771. # [17:40] <annevk> also, I use Python a lot still to process data and generate things
772. # [17:40] <MikeSmith> I prefer getting somebody else to both write specs for me and write tools for writing specs
773. # [17:41] <annevk> I guess if a v8 shell or some such came installed I could switch some of that, but not sure if it's worth it
774. # [17:41] <Ms2ger> Spidermonkey! ;)
775. # [17:41] <annevk> MikeSmith: that's why you're a pimp :p
776. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> heh
777. # [17:43] <annevk> I think I agree with you in spirit, but respec does not do what I need, and anolis does, apart from it being slightly harder to pick up for newbies
778. # [17:43] <annevk> and every spec that is generated with respec I sort of feel should be redone some day...
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780. # [17:43] <annevk> its reverse IDL'ing and such is just wrong
781. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> yeah, agreed about that
782. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: anyway, in other news I met with Martin Duerst the other day to talk about the URL spec and Encoding spec
783. # [17:45] * Quits: dirkpennings (~dirkpenni@90-145-26-140.bbserv.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
784. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> and he was generally not strongly unfavorable to both
785. # [17:46] <annevk> not strongly unfavorable :)
786. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> heh
787. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> yeah
788. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> also btw, the IRI WG is not going to take any position on the web+ scheme
789. # [17:48] <annevk> how is URL going?
790. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> it's not
791. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> I don't want to work on it alone
792. # [17:48] <annevk> lol http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/rev/dc617a4934cc
793. # [17:49] <karlcow> http://pyjs.org/#Translator
794. # [17:49] <annevk> MikeSmith: k
795. # [17:49] <annevk> MikeSmith: it's top of my post-Encoding todo list
796. # [17:49] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, hah, you think that will work?
797. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> :)
798. # [17:49] <Ms2ger> Unless Hixie hires someone to do it :)
799. # [17:49] <Ms2ger> That's the only reason I managed to get rid of DOM Range
800. # [17:50] <annevk> I sort of have it in for the low-level stuff nowadays
801. # [17:50] <annevk> Encoding, URL
802. # [17:50] <annevk> MIME?
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804. # [17:50] <karlcow> url seems to be dead living draft
805. # [17:50] <annevk> but, no rush
806. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> annevk: mime sniffing!
807. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: :)
808. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: Chris Weber has aggregated the WebKit tests into the set of tests he already made. So when you get time, we can start looking at those tests and then go from there
809. # [17:51] <annevk> MikeSmith: well that's done, but parsing Content-Type and media-type and such is not
810. # [17:51] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah
811. # [17:51] <annevk> the encoding stuff is taking somewhat longer than expected
812. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: somebody I know is agitating me about the fact that the HTML spec references the mime-sniffing draft which is no longer being maintained as an IETF I.D.
813. # [17:52] <annevk> blame Larry?
814. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> um, er
815. # [17:52] <annevk> "oh trololol i'm so experienced... lets split this all out... object object... tralala... to the IETF!"
816. # [17:53] <annevk> happened to MIME sniff and URL
817. # [17:53] <annevk> IETF is where HTML spec features go to die
818. # [17:53] <jwalden> someone should send the DRM stuff over there, then
819. # [17:53] <Ms2ger> jwalden++
820. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> hahaha
821. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> people who actually do active work at IETF are great
822. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> Peter St. Andre
823. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> Chris Weber
824. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> and such
825. # [17:55] * jwalden doesn't doubt that :-)
826. # [17:55] <Ms2ger> "New public mailing list for discussions on potential NFC work at W3C"
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828. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> Mike Belshe seems to have deleted his tweet about the IETF from last week
829. # [18:00] <karlcow> annevk: thanks for this. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Apr/0034
830. # [18:00] <karlcow> I have been advocating this for a while but failed each time. :/
831. # [18:00] <Ms2ger> karlcow, I would suggest wiki.whatwg.org instead ;)
832. # [18:01] <karlcow> Ms2ger: what is that? ;)
833. # [18:01] <Ms2ger> A spam-infested hellscape
834. # [18:02] <annevk> hmm http://commoncrawl.org/
835. # [18:05] <annevk> looks complicated to use
836. # [18:05] <annevk> but promises access to billions of documents
837. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> man some of the characters in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/index-big5.txt are just crazy cool
838. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> like 𥩔
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841. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> or even simpler ones like 竼
842. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> japanese doesn't have these
843. # [18:08] <annevk> and resources are stored in http://archive.org/web/researcher/ArcFileFormat.php which is of course a spec written along the lines of HTML4 but then with more skiing and alcohol
844. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> heh
845. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> I hope you're not denigrating alcohol
846. # [18:10] <annevk> only when combined with spec writing
847. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> it makes everything better
848. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> well almost everything, up to a point
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850. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> nose-painting, provokes, and unprovokes, etc.
851. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> the Porter's speech
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853. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> stand to and not stand to
854. # [18:16] <annevk> heh ℡
855. # [18:17] <annevk> monospace Ⅷ also falls apart
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860. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> Woo! http://www.w3.org/TR/css-variables/
861. # [18:26] <annevk> wrong channel to cheer about TR/
862. # [18:26] <wilhelm> Any implementations yet?
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864. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> wilhelm: Ours is in-progress.
865. # [18:26] <wilhelm> Landing which year? (c:
866. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> This year, hopefully. ^_^
867. # [18:27] <wilhelm> Cool.
868. # [18:29] <beverloo> any wip patches around?
869. # [18:29] <beverloo> there is one for hierarchies :)
870. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> Variables is quite a bit more involved, so I dunno. Ask Luke, though.
871. # [18:31] <beverloo> will do, thanks!
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873. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> um, webkit peoples, should you read the logs and find http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120410#l-358
874. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> please don't send me angried DMs
875. # [18:34] <karlcow> TabAtkins: do you know the bug number on the webkit project for CSS variables?
876. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> TOO LATE
877. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> karlcow: I do not.
878. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> I was referring to http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120410#l-355
879. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> whoever's writing self-closing script tags needs to wear a dunce cap and be subjected to a struggle session
880. # [18:36] <karlcow> hmmm https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46594
881. # [18:36] <karlcow> Bug 46594 - [Meta] Finish CSS Variables implementation
882. # [18:36] <karlcow> this is meta indeeed
883. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> I like the way Joe Peck puts the quotes around "www-style" there
884. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> reminds me of the way Bjorn likes to write HTML5 as "HTML5"
885. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> Heh, that's... not a useful bug.
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898. # [18:56] <karlcow> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19660 the old version of css variables
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904. # [19:03] <karlcow> ok added css variables https://github.com/karlcow/browserfeatures/blob/master/bugsdb.json#L45
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916. # [19:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: the even funnier part of that poll is that hober's comment on that post were actually added after the poll closed, because he didn't notice the poll was closing
917. # [19:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: gotta love the level of engagement the wg is getting
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927. # [19:50] <annevk> btw, is there a smarter way to do width = len(str(len(list)))?
928. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> Eh
929. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> The number of digits in the length of the list?
930. # [19:52] <annevk> yeah, I use it for the width of the first column of the indexes
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932. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> That would be around log10(len(list))
933. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> Not sure if it's called that in python
934. # [19:53] <annevk> it's not really slow
935. # [19:53] <annevk> was just wondering
936. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> Yeah, log is what you need if you dont' want string parsing.
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938. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> Specifically, floor(log10(len(list)-1))+1
939. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> There's no string *parsing* involved, per se
940. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
941. # [19:55] <annevk> so that looks way uglier :)
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943. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Indeed it does.
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945. # [19:56] <Ms2ger> Are you sure those signs are right?
946. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> Oh wait, remove one of those fenceposts.
947. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> floor(log10(len(list)))+1
948. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> I was remembering code that was doing that from the last index, rather than the length.
949. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> list = []
950. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> Screw your zero.
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991. # [20:55] * Philip` is surprised to discover an OpenGL extension (GL_NV_path_rendering) whose API accepts SVG path strings (and PostScript path strings)
992. # [20:56] <Philip`> (Seems to be supported on GeForce 8 and higher)
993. # [20:58] * Philip` wonders if it's meant to be used for hardware-accelerating actual SVG drawing
994. # [21:00] <smaug____> Nvidia has been hiring browser+graphics experts
995. # [21:01] <annevk> btw
996. # [21:01] <annevk> the equivalent of my len(str(len(list))) hack is
997. # [21:01] <annevk> import math
998. # [21:01] <annevk> math.floor(math.log(len(list), 10))+1
999. # [21:01] <annevk> that it's longer is about the nicest thing I can say about it
1000. # [21:04] <Philip`> annevk: If you're trying to measure the width of a column of text, the len(str(...)) approach seems much more semantically appropriate
1001. # [21:05] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
1002. # [21:05] <annevk> my intuition is usually okay, but then I second guess myself into hell
1003. # [21:08] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.90.164) (Quit: othermaciej)
1004. # [21:09] <gsnedders> smaug____: Any idea to work on what?
1005. # [21:10] <smaug____> dunno. I just happened to notice that they were hiring such devs to their Helsinki office
1006. # [21:14] <hsivonen> Philip`: leaking SVG/PS down to OpenGL seems weird
1007. # [21:14] <hsivonen> Philip`: is it assumed that the app sets the transform matrix so that original path coordinates can go unchanged all the way to GL?
1008. # [21:22] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
1009. # [21:29] <Hixie> annevk: which is faster?
1010. # [21:32] <Philip`> hsivonen: Paths are constructed in a 2D plane with the specified coordinates, then multiplied by the global 3D modelview-projection-viewport matrices when they are rasterised
1011. # [21:33] <Philip`> hsivonen: so presumably the application is expected to use those matrices
1012. # [21:34] <Philip`> hsivonen: Oh, looks like there's also a TransformPath function which you can use as well as those global matrices
1013. # [21:35] * Ms2ger pokes Philip`
1014. # [21:35] * Philip` falls off a cliff and dies
1015. # [21:36] <annevk> Hixie: haven't benchmarked
1016. # [21:36] <Ms2ger> We can't have that
1017. # [21:36] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-vigzzsytrzilcqzd)
1018. # [21:37] <Ms2ger> Philip`, puh-lease have a look at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14191
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1020. # [21:41] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1021. # [21:41] <Hixie> hmm
1022. # [21:42] <Hixie> should modal <dialog>s have a UA-implemented "cancel" mechanism, or should it be implemented by the author...
1023. # [21:42] <Hixie> i guess if we add <form method=dialog> then we should have a UA cancel too
1024. # [21:42] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
1025. # [21:43] <annevk> letting clicking next to dialog dismiss it would sure be nice
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1028. # [21:45] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
1029. # [21:45] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
1030. # [21:45] <karlcow> → python -mtimeit -s 'x=range(10);from math import ceil,log' 'ceil(log(len(x),10))+1'
1031. # [21:45] <karlcow> 1000000 loops, best of 3: 0.513 usec per loop
1032. # [21:45] <karlcow> → python -mtimeit -s 'x=range(10)' 'len(str(x))'
1033. # [21:45] <karlcow> 100000 loops, best of 3: 2.59 usec per loop
1034. # [21:46] <Hixie> annevk: by default?
1035. # [21:46] <Hixie> annevk: certainly i agree we should have an event to allow that, but i dunno about doing it by default
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1038. # [21:48] <annevk> Hixie: dunno, my main interaction with modal dialogs is twitter
1039. # [21:48] <annevk> Hixie: twitter does that :)
1040. # [21:49] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
1041. # [21:49] <Philip`> Ms2ger: The patch looks like it'll probably break non-W3C versions of the tests (undefined references to assert_true etc) - is that correct and/or intentional?
1042. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> Those exist?
1043. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> Oh
1044. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> Well, I guess I maintain one
1045. # [21:50] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1046. # [21:51] <Philip`> Apart from the Mochitest version, I don't think the others are currently used, so it's okay to intentionally break them
1047. # [21:51] <Hixie> annevk: doing it by default seems a bit dodgy for non-trivial dialogs
1048. # [21:52] <Ms2ger> I haven't checked... Let me have a look
1049. # [21:53] <Philip`> (The other versions were used at philip.html5.org but that's obsolete now and not updated)
1050. # [21:53] <Ms2ger> Philip`, Mochitests don't call _assert*, I don't think
1051. # [21:53] <Philip`> (though at least the philip.html5.org versions have a usable test-runner)
1052. # [21:54] <Philip`> Ms2ger: That's quite possibly true
1053. # [21:55] <annevk> Hixie: maybe there should be some way to signal the difference in markup? infobox versus requires user interaction
1054. # [21:55] <Hixie> hmm
1055. # [21:56] <annevk> Hixie: it seems the style features you get are desirable either way
1056. # [21:56] <Hixie> in other news, have you picked the name for the backdrop pseudo?
1057. # [21:56] <annevk> I called it ::backdrop
1058. # [21:56] <annevk> :)
1059. # [21:56] * Hixie considers onbackdropclick
1060. # [21:56] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#::backdrop-pseudo-element
1061. # [21:56] <Ms2ger> Philip`, testharness.js has at least three test runners, fwiw ;)
1062. # [21:56] <annevk> I guess I should file a bug on HTML for <iframe allowfullscreen> and generally integrating Fullscreen Hixie?
1063. # [21:57] <Hixie> (oh hey maybe you should spec the 'backdropclick' event actually)
1064. # [21:57] <Hixie> lgtm
1065. # [21:57] <annevk> I want the person that defines hit testing and the box model to do things like that...
1066. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> Wait, why backdropclick?
1067. # [21:58] <annevk> but I guess as long as we're patching the broken patchwork that's CSS...
1068. # [21:58] * tortvanc is now known as torstenmirow
1069. # [21:58] <annevk> I can do that
1070. # [21:58] <Ms2ger> !summon tantek
1071. # [21:58] * Quits: torstenmirow (~tortvanc@178-25-184-127-dynip.superkabel.de)
1072. # [21:59] <Hixie> TabAtkins: so you know when to close the dialog
1073. # [21:59] <Hixie> TabAtkins: if you want to
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1075. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> Hm. We're speccing that click events on pseudos dispatch to the superior parent, with a "pseudo" argument on the event object indicating which pseudo was clicked.
1076. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> Presumably the <dialog> is the superior parent of ::backdrop.
1077. # [22:01] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
1078. # [22:01] <Philip`> Ms2ger: The _assertPixelApprox assertion message is missing the tolerance value, and statements should end in semicolons to be consistent, and maybe it'd be less ugly to put the failure messages in a 'var msg' instead of duplicating the code or something like that, but otherwise I don't see anything obvious enough to notice (though I find it hard to remember how the test system works)
1079. # [22:01] <annevk> TabAtkins: where is that?
1080. # [22:01] <annevk> ooh, so click would dispatch on dialog
1081. # [22:01] <annevk> and it would have .cssPsuedo set to "backdrop"?
1082. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> annevk: Trying to find it. dbaron was talkinga bout it.
1083. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
1084. # [22:02] <annevk> kind of nice
1085. # [22:02] <Hixie> that works for me
1086. # [22:02] <annevk> someone still needs to define hit testing on boxes though
1087. # [22:03] <annevk> along with the mouse events and such
1088. # [22:03] * Hixie giggles has his silly term "superior parent" is still in the vernacular
1089. # [22:03] <Ms2ger> Philip`, ok, thanks
1090. # [22:03] <annevk> heh
1091. # [22:03] <annevk> in DOM we'd have called that "associated element" or some such
1092. # [22:03] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I can't come up with a better term. :/
1093. # [22:03] <Hixie> yeah i couldn't either :-)
1094. # [22:03] <TabAtkins> pseudo-parent!
1095. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> Or pseudo-root.
1096. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> The element that roots the pseudo-tree the element is in.
1097. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> annevk, yeah, we associate a lot :)
1098. # [22:04] <annevk> we keep it simple :)
1099. # [22:17] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
1100. # [22:22] <karlcow> hmmm can't find http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7030&to=7031 in http://dev.w3.org/html5/2dcontext/
1101. # [22:22] <karlcow> I wonder if I'm looking at the wrong place
1102. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> Yep
1103. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> You're looking at <karlcow> hmmm can't find http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7030&to=7031 in http://dev.w3.org/html5/2dcontext/
1104. # [22:22] <hober> karlcow: i assume syncing the 2dcontext draft is paused pending resolution of issue-201
1105. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> Er
1106. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> Ar http://dev.w3.org/html5/2dcontext/
1107. # [22:23] <karlcow> ah thanks hober
1108. # [22:24] * Ms2ger stops trying to type
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1110. # [22:26] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201
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1148. # [23:31] <ilhan> Hi there! Is there anybody who will be interested to develop the Distributed Social Networking Protocol (dsnp) http://www.complang.org/dsnp/
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1151. # [23:41] <karlcow> ilhan: http://www.complang.org/redmine/projects/dsnpd dead link, also http://www.complang.org/redmine/projects/choice-social
1152. # [23:42] <karlcow> and project seems dead http://www.complang.org/redmine/projects/dsnp/issues?set_filter=1
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1154. # [23:46] <ilhan> karlcow: I've contacted with the author a half months ago, he is developing the project but very very very slowly now
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1161. # Session Close: Wed Apr 11 00:00:01 2012

The end :)