/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-03-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 13 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  35. # [00:48] <karlcow> nooooooo "Polyglot: the final thread?"
  36. # [00:49] <karlcow> pushing slightlyoff on the edge of the final final final frontier of the universe ;)
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  240. # [09:58] <zcorpan> jgraham: hmm. seems like the introduction of transferrable changed the semantics of postMessage(string, '*', []) such that the event.data is an object rather than a string...
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  242. # [09:59] <jgraham> zcorpan: Oh, so we have lots more updating to do?
  243. # [09:59] <jgraham> I started looking at your latest batch of changes
  244. # [10:00] <zcorpan> maybe. i don't like the current situation with almost identical tests, maybe i should just kill the "with ports" ones and add a few tests that do more interesting things with ports and transferables
  245. # [10:01] <zcorpan> i just don't understand where the object comes from, in the spec
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  251. # [10:10] <zcorpan> jgraham: wait, does testharness send message events to the test case?
  252. # [10:11] <zcorpan> argh!
  253. # [10:11] <jgraham> zcorpan: Er, yeah, as of recently it does :(
  254. # [10:11] <zcorpan> why
  255. # [10:11] <zcorpan> and can i disable it
  256. # [10:11] <jgraham> tobie needed it. I dont remember why
  257. # [10:11] <jgraham> I should have thought of this at the time :(
  258. # [10:11] <zcorpan> it should be opt-in
  259. # [10:12] <jgraham> Well, the problem is that it's for running the tests in a harness
  260. # [10:12] <jgraham> Making it opt-in doesn't make sense
  261. # [10:12] <zcorpan> ah
  262. # [10:12] <jgraham> (at least I think that's why)
  263. # [10:13] <zcorpan> sigh
  264. # [10:14] <jgraham> Sorry
  265. # [10:14] <zcorpan> it just shouldn't send the events to the page itself
  266. # [10:14] <zcorpan> it can send events to parents and openers, fine
  267. # [10:14] * Joins: tobie (~tobielang@73-118.195-178.cust.bluewin.ch)
  268. # [10:14] <tobie> hey
  269. # [10:16] <jgraham> tobie: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20130313#l-251
  270. # [10:16] <tobie> yes, just went through the logs
  271. # [10:16] <tobie> have to go back through the code.
  272. # [10:16] <zcorpan> forEach_windows i guess
  273. # [10:17] <jgraham> YEah, it is possible to stop it sending events to the test window itself. I just wonder if anything depends on that
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  275. # [10:17] <jgraham> I think we might have to and fix the dependencies
  276. # [10:18] <jgraham> This is way too much of a sharp edge
  277. # [10:18] <zcorpan> s/cache = [[self, true]];/cache = [];/ ?
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  281. # [10:19] <jgraham> No, we can't change it there
  282. # [10:19] <jgraham> The callbacks on the same window should still work
  283. # [10:19] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  284. # [10:20] <jgraham> I think the right fix is s/if(supports_post_message(w))/if(supports_post_message(w) && w !== self)/g
  285. # [10:20] <tobie> yes
  286. # [10:20] <tobie> in all three places.
  287. # [10:20] <zcorpan> yeah
  288. # [10:20] <zcorpan> tobie: can you fix it?
  289. # [10:20] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@vev69-1-82-232-219-95.fbx.proxad.net)
  290. # [10:21] <tobie> sure. Is the canonical repo still the hg one?
  291. # [10:21] <jgraham> No, it's the github one
  292. # [10:21] <jgraham> I think
  293. # [10:21] <tobie> the testharness one?
  294. # [10:21] <tobie> or the html suite one?
  295. # [10:22] <zcorpan> the testharness one
  296. # [10:22] <jgraham> The testharness os gets synced to /resources/ on w3c-test.org
  297. # [10:22] <jgraham> And it is the canonical testharness.js repo. as far as I'm concerned
  298. # [10:22] <jgraham> It's the one hooked up to critic, for example ;)
  299. # [10:22] <zcorpan> should we kill the other testharnesses?
  300. # [10:23] <tobie> yes please.
  301. # [10:24] <tobie> w !== self or w !== window? (I can't remember the difference between the two)
  302. # [10:25] <jgraham> self === window
  303. # [10:25] <jgraham> Gotta love the DOM
  304. # [10:26] <tobie> is it always the case?
  305. # [10:26] <tobie> isn't self different within frames or something?
  306. # [10:26] <jgraham> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#dom-self
  307. # [10:27] <tobie> Man, I'm getting rusty.
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  316. # [10:39] <tobie> zcorpan: sorry, weird rebasing issues.
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  327. # [10:43] <tobie> jgraham, zcorpan: https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js/pull/12/files
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  330. # [10:44] <tobie> Turns out these weren't weird rebasing issues, but that the PR was automatically done against jgraham's repo (not uptodate) rather than mine.
  331. # [10:44] <tobie> s/mine/w3c's/
  332. # [10:44] <zcorpan> tobie: thanks
  333. # [10:45] <tobie> yet another sign we should probably clarify what the canonical repo is.
  334. # [10:46] <jgraham> yeah, apparently I need to email github or something to get testharness.js root to be the W3C copy
  335. # [10:46] <tobie> (jgraham you'll need to update your repo, delete W3C's and then transfer yours). Will probably break a number of things in the process.
  336. # [10:46] <jgraham> It would be nice if they had UI for it
  337. # [10:46] <tobie> they do.
  338. # [10:46] <tobie> In admin tools.
  339. # [10:46] <jgraham> odinho claimed that an email would be enough
  340. # [10:47] <tobie> I doubt it given they have UI for it.
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  343. # [10:47] <tobie> but who knows.
  344. # [10:47] <jgraham> They have UI to solve a different problem
  345. # [10:48] <jgraham> AFAICT
  346. # [10:48] <zcorpan> now my test passes
  347. # [10:48] <tobie> zcorpan: awesome.
  348. # [10:48] <odinho> I claimed and it was correct :-)
  349. # [10:49] <jgraham> odinho: Who do I mail?
  350. # [10:49] <odinho> I did it for another project. T'was easy. support@github.com
  351. # [10:50] <odinho> tobie: No UI for changing roots :-)
  352. # [10:50] <odinho> tobie: Although you can hack around it like you suggest. But hacky hacky.
  353. # [10:50] <tobie> yeah, hacky. hacky.
  354. # [10:50] <tobie> But you're both right. The problem is a different one.
  355. # [10:51] <tobie> And changing root is the way to go about it.
  356. # [10:52] <jgraham> OK, email sent
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  358. # [10:56] <tobie> Nice.
  359. # [10:57] * annevk hopes Fake Alex wakes up soon
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  361. # [11:02] <jgraham> And real Alex stays asleep?
  362. # [11:11] <zcorpan> wonder what to do with data: and same-origin. should we change the spec there?
  363. # [11:11] <zcorpan> chrome's behavior is kinda annoying
  364. # [11:12] <jgraham> Chrome's behaviour is super-annoying
  365. # [11:12] <jgraham> They should really fix that
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  371. # [11:18] <annevk> zcorpan: http://html5.org/temp/fetch.html treats data as same-origin
  372. # [11:18] <annevk> zcorpan: about/blob too
  373. # [11:18] <zcorpan> jgraham: i think i'm done now (if you were waiting for things to settle before reviewing)
  374. # [11:18] <jgraham> zcorpan: OK
  375. # [11:18] <zcorpan> annevk: ok
  376. # [11:18] <jgraham> I was reviewing something else
  377. # [11:19] <annevk> zcorpan: I expect all specs to use that algorithm eventually so the same type of URLs work in similar places
  378. # [11:19] <jgraham> And feeling vaugely bad about doing so much code review :(
  379. # [11:19] <jgraham> https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js <- spot the difference
  380. # [11:19] <zcorpan> jgraham: heh. you should delegate more :-)
  381. # [11:20] <zcorpan> nice!
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  387. # [11:35] <tobie> wow. That was fast.
  388. # [11:43] <zcorpan> ok next up is workers
  389. # [11:46] <jgraham> tobie: Did you just do something to the branch you created for the fixpostmessage pr?
  390. # [11:46] <odinho> Cool. :-)
  391. # [11:47] <tobie> jgraham: yes, deleted it. why?
  392. # [11:47] <jgraham> tobie: OK. Critic tried to update the branch and gave me an error message
  393. # [11:48] <tobie> Update on my repo?
  394. # [11:48] <jgraham> No, update in its local repo
  395. # [11:48] <tobie> oh.
  396. # [11:49] <jgraham> Probably just need to teach it to stop tracking branches that don't exist upstream anymore
  397. # [11:49] <jgraham> (it might even already do that after a while)
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  401. # [12:23] <annevk> Man, "referrer source" is such a pain
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  407. # [12:37] <annevk> SimonSapin: so I think what I need from http://simonsapin.github.com/data-urls/ is that it either returns failure or a MIME type and data
  408. # [12:38] <SimonSapin> annevk: makes sense
  409. # [12:39] <SimonSapin> Returning a "response" with a Content-Type header is not a thing?
  410. # [12:39] <annevk> SimonSapin: that's what I'm building out of that
  411. # [12:39] <SimonSapin> MIME type, with parameters
  412. # [12:39] <annevk> SimonSapin: refresh http://html5.org/temp/fetch.html
  413. # [12:40] <SimonSapin> I think we already had that discussion … (what is called a mime type)
  414. # [12:40] <annevk> yeah including parameters
  415. # [12:40] <annevk> whatever you want to call that
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  417. # [12:41] <SimonSapin> I don’t really care how it’s called, as long as it’s defined somewhere
  418. # [12:42] <annevk> agreed :-)
  419. # [12:42] <annevk> I think GPHemsley is defining MIME type terminology
  420. # [12:43] <darobin> we could just call them GPHemsleys then
  421. # [12:43] <annevk> SimonSapin: in any event, the second instance of "data" (including quotes) on that page invokes your algorithm
  422. # [12:43] <annevk> SimonSapin: it's not entirely correct yet as it should probably queue a bunch of a tasks rather than simply returning the response
  423. # [12:44] <SimonSapin> well, what I have for data: at this point is more a list of issues than an algorithm :)
  424. # [12:47] <SimonSapin> annevk: for now I suppose you can write "… whose value is the MIME type and parameters returned from …"
  425. # [12:48] <annevk> k
  426. # [12:50] <darobin> mmm, we'd said web-platform-tests for the new repo name, right? tobie?
  427. # [12:50] <darobin> jgraham? --^
  428. # [12:50] <annevk> why not "tests"?
  429. # [12:50] <darobin> please let's not bikeshed AGAIN
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  431. # [12:52] <jgraham> darobin: yes
  432. # [12:52] <darobin> ok, ta jgraham
  433. # [12:52] <jgraham> zcorpan: Did you delete your html-testsuite repository on github?
  434. # [12:52] <darobin> if you want to bikeshed with annevk, you have about 90 seconds before something happens
  435. # [12:53] <zcorpan> jgraham: yeah. was that a bad thing?
  436. # [12:53] <SimonSapin> annevk: in data: the MIME type + parameters is an unparsed string of text, data is a byte string
  437. # [12:53] <jgraham> zcorpan: yes :)
  438. # [12:53] <zcorpan> lunch, bbiab
  439. # [12:53] <annevk> SimonSapin: MIME type should prolly be a byte sequence too
  440. # [12:53] <jgraham> zcorpan: Apart from anything else, I don't know where the commits in https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/pull/36 live now
  441. # [12:54] <annevk> I wish we had some easy way of annotating bytes vs strings
  442. # [12:54] <annevk> is Content-Type vs "Content-Type" too subtle?
  443. # [12:54] <annevk> (that's what I'm kinda using now)
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  445. # [12:58] <jgraham> darobin: So, any idea where those commtis *do* live?
  446. # [12:58] <jgraham> *commits
  447. # [12:59] <darobin> jgraham: commits in a PR from a repo that's been deleted?
  448. # [12:59] <jgraham> Yeah
  449. # [12:59] <jgraham> If I fetch the html-testsuite repo I don't see them at least
  450. # [12:59] <jgraham> But I don't know if fetch gets everything or only reachable commits
  451. # [13:00] <darobin> jgraham: first, run git checkout -b zcorpan-master master
  452. # [13:00] <darobin> then curl https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/36.patch | git am
  453. # [13:00] <darobin> that's the only way to get at them now I think
  454. # [13:00] <darobin> it's a miracle they still exist
  455. # [13:01] <darobin> rename accomplished
  456. # [13:02] <darobin> I guess I should set up a new auto-clone
  457. # [13:03] <jgraham> That doesn't make much sense
  458. # [13:03] <darobin> jgraham: what doesn't?
  459. # [13:04] <jgraham> The patch being the only source of the commits
  460. # [13:04] <darobin> I don't know man, I see them in the UI for sure
  461. # [13:04] <darobin> but I don't see them anwhere!
  462. # [13:04] <darobin> I mean I don't know where they would be
  463. # [13:04] <jgraham> If that was true, I don't understand why https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/9ad57834d3d4871e083bcbf202dac74240242ab0 would work
  464. # [13:05] <darobin> oh wait
  465. # [13:05] <jgraham> Unless the github UI is doing something super-weird it feels like the commit should still exist
  466. # [13:06] <darobin> jgraham: can you checkout a branch called 9ad57834d3?
  467. # [13:06] <darobin> or somehow track it
  468. # [13:06] <darobin> because it's what the UI shows for the branch name
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  470. # [13:07] <darobin> jgraham: otherwise you can use plumbing commands to get at the commits
  471. # [13:07] <darobin> I *guess* you can merge them
  472. # [13:08] <jgraham> darobin: Right, you can, in theory, see the commit in git log
  473. # [13:08] <jgraham> But that particular commit doesn't seem to be in my clone
  474. # [13:08] <darobin> weird
  475. # [13:08] <jgraham> And I don't know for sure how to tell if it is in the remote without shell access
  476. # [13:08] <darobin> I don't know how PRs are handled tbh
  477. # [13:09] <jgraham> git fetch origin {sha1} seems like a good bet
  478. # [13:09] <darobin> worth a shot
  479. # [13:09] <jgraham> It doesn't work :)
  480. # [13:09] <jgraham> fatal: Couldn't find remote ref 9ad57834d3
  481. # [13:10] <jgraham> So maybe that ref really doesn't get pulled into the local repo.
  482. # [13:10] <jgraham> and we are just seeing cached data
  483. # [13:11] <darobin> this is weird
  484. # [13:11] <darobin> clearly the GH UI is designed to handle this as gracefully as it can
  485. # [13:12] <darobin> because it offers the "grab a patch" option when normally it would tell you how to get at the commits
  486. # [13:12] <jgraham> (I can get at the commits via critic fwiw, so they aren't gone in any meaningful sense)
  487. # [13:12] <darobin> yeah they're in GH too
  488. # [13:13] <darobin> I just don't know in what repo they're stored :) it's bizarre
  489. # [13:13] <zcorpan> jgraham: sorry about that. should i do a new pull request?
  490. # [13:13] <jgraham> zcorpan: No, but you could recreate the original repo and readd the commits with the same branch name ;)
  491. # [13:14] <jgraham> In other news, I wonder how to teach critic that the repo name/url changed
  492. # [13:14] * jgraham thinks the answer is pain + SQL
  493. # [13:16] <zcorpan> jgraham: how do i do that?
  494. # [13:17] <darobin> SQL!
  495. # [13:17] * darobin shudders
  496. # [13:18] <SimonSapin> annevk: URLs are text, right? (Not bytes.) We have no encoding information for extracting a MIME type from a data: URL
  497. # [13:18] <SimonSapin> just use utf-8, maybe?
  498. # [13:19] <SimonSapin> is non-ASCII ever relevant in MIME types or parameters?
  499. # [13:19] <annevk> SimonSapin: once parsed URLs are text representing bytes
  500. # [13:19] <SimonSapin> text representing bytes, what does that mean?
  501. # [13:20] <annevk> SimonSapin: a string where all code points are in the range 0-127 and everything else has a %XX escape
  502. # [13:20] <annevk> iirc
  503. # [13:20] <jgraham> zcorpan: Well I donno really what the easiest way is.
  504. # [13:20] <SimonSapin> annevk: so, for data:, should I percent-decode the whole thing before doing anything else?
  505. # [13:21] <zcorpan> from my perspective, the easiest thing is to throw away the current pull request and do it all over again. that i know how to do
  506. # [13:21] <jgraham> Go for it
  507. # [13:21] <zcorpan> ok
  508. # [13:21] <annevk> SimonSapin: I think the most logical think would be to first tokenize the start until you get to the data part
  509. # [13:21] <annevk> SimonSapin: and then decode the data part using the encoding you found in the MIME type
  510. # [13:21] <SimonSapin> annevk: well, %2C or %3B might not be special as , or ; are …
  511. # [13:22] * jgraham does the simple part of the repo move
  512. # [13:22] <annevk> SimonSapin: yeah, therefore you prolly want to tokenize, not decode
  513. # [13:22] <annevk> SimonSapin: I suspect different implementations do different things here and they probably hacked something together rather than did a proper job
  514. # [13:23] <SimonSapin> I’ll prolly need a lot of testing before we can decide if , or ; can be %-encoded
  515. # [13:23] <darobin> a beer to whoever can make sense of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20993#c7 for me
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  517. # [13:24] <SimonSapin> annevk: anyway, we’ll figure this out later
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  519. # [13:27] <annevk> darobin: sounds like he wants a restriction on the DOCTYPE in XHTML similar to how <meta charset> has a restriction when used in XHTML
  520. # [13:27] <annevk> darobin: with a lot of distraction
  521. # [13:27] <darobin> annevk: yeah, I sort of get some of the idea, but there's an awful lot of distraction so I'm a bit lost tbh
  522. # [13:29] <annevk> darobin: he wants nothing but <!DOCTYPE html> allowed or some such, sounds like a polyboat argument
  523. # [13:30] <jgraham> darobin: I was going to read it just to disrupt the global beer economy a little, but then I realised it wasn't worth it
  524. # [13:31] <darobin> annevk: close, but that's not enough of an explanation for me to act on it, so no beer (well, beer, but not for that)
  525. # [13:31] <darobin> jgraham: it's a lot of effot
  526. # [13:31] <darobin> effort
  527. # [13:32] <darobin> also, if it's a polygloat thing why not do it in the polygoat?
  528. # [13:32] <annevk> darobin: the only relevant sentence is
  529. # [13:32] <annevk> "I only want a rule which promotes a HTML5-friendly DOCTYPE if and when a DOCTYPE use used."
  530. # [13:32] <annevk> and then you have to do s/use /is /
  531. # [13:33] <annevk> which is basically also what the subject of the bug is
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  533. # [13:33] <annevk> reasonable responses include:
  534. # [13:33] <annevk> XHTML: mahahahaha
  535. # [13:34] <annevk> o_O *shrug*
  536. # [13:34] <annevk> o_O fixed
  537. # [13:34] <darobin> I almost went with "huhwah?"
  538. # [13:36] <SteveF> wiseguys https://twitter.com/w3cmemes/status/311816660707328000 ;-)
  539. # [13:37] <SteveF> what twat said that?...
  540. # [13:38] <darobin> tee hee :)
  541. # [13:40] <darobin> "I accidentally the repository." -- zcorpan :-)
  542. # [13:42] <SteveF> if i ever find out whose behind those damn W3C memes...
  543. # [13:48] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Mar/0088.html o_O
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  546. # [13:50] <SteveF> annevk: hmm odd you just post that link and a w3c meme about it appears on twitter
  547. # [13:50] <annevk> yeah I got it from there
  548. # [13:50] <annevk> I don't read public-html
  549. # [13:50] <SteveF> ;-)
  550. # [13:51] <SteveF> your'e missing out on soo much
  551. # [13:51] <darobin> so much love!
  552. # [13:52] <SteveF> love to spare!
  553. # [13:52] <SteveF> even html-wg IRC is a groovy place to be these days
  554. # [13:53] <SteveF> not as groovy as whatwg irc of course
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  557. # [13:55] <SteveF> HTML WG is sorta like darobin's 'field of dreams'
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  559. # [13:59] <zcorpan> jgraham: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/37
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  575. # [14:11] <SimonSapin> annevk: better? https://github.com/SimonSapin/data-urls/commit/ce8046bd#diff-1 http://simonsapin.github.com/data-urls/
  576. # [14:13] <jgraham> zcorpan: Nice. Critic doesn't seem happy after the move though :(
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  578. # [14:14] <zcorpan> jgraham: the move being html-testsuite -> web-platform-tests ?
  579. # [14:15] <jgraham> Yeah
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  587. # [14:30] <zcorpan> memes on a roll
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  596. # [14:56] <annevk> SimonSapin: cool
  597. # [14:56] <annevk> SimonSapin: fwiw, a parsed URL's scheme is normalized already so you don't have to do case-insensitively match against it
  598. # [14:56] <annevk> s/do//
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  601. # [14:58] <SimonSapin> annevk: does it include the colon?
  602. # [14:58] <annevk> SimonSapin: doesn't actually
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  606. # [15:02] <zcorpan> are any of these available in workers these days (per spec)? CanvasRenderingContext2D CanvasGradient CanvasPattern TextMetrics
  607. # [15:04] * zcorpan gotta go, will read the logs
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  609. # [15:07] <SimonSapin> annevk: fixed
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  612. # [15:12] <annevk> cool
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  623. # [16:05] <darobin> ah, crap, no zcorpan
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  625. # [16:05] <darobin> oh "will read the logs", good
  626. # [16:05] <darobin> zcorpan: since you were interested in this, you might want to look at http://library.2017.im/app/refs/
  627. # [16:05] <darobin> it's not the real deployment, so you can break stuff and all
  628. # [16:06] <darobin> (you'll need to sign up to make it do anything at all)
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  631. # [16:10] <jgraham> 2017.im?
  632. # [16:10] <jgraham> Nothing like years in the hostname
  633. # [16:11] <darobin> who said it's a year :)
  634. # [16:11] <jgraham> I just did
  635. # [16:11] <darobin> oh
  636. # [16:11] <darobin> fait point that
  637. # [16:12] <annevk> o_O
  638. # [16:12] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/sliceE.html fail
  639. # [16:12] <annevk> (is linked from Web Forms 2.0)
  640. # [16:13] <darobin> I guess XForms has some Living Slices
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  654. # [16:40] <jgraham> Horray!
  655. # [16:40] <jgraham> I Was missing the FORMAT COMPLAINT
  656. # [16:40] <jgraham> *FORMAL
  657. # [16:40] <jgraham> Sigh
  658. # [16:41] <jgraham> But I also misss the FORMAT COMPLAINT
  659. # [16:41] <jgraham> I think I will go and find some 5.25" floppies
  660. # [16:41] <annevk> there's a new one?
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  662. # [16:43] <jgraham> So, anyone care to take bets on who will post the AXIOMATIC PROOF that EME isn't solely a vehicle for DRM?
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  664. # [16:45] <zewt> heh apparently webkit sometimes runs async xhr synchronously :(
  665. # [16:46] <jgraham> In an observable way, other than timing?
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  667. # [16:46] <zewt> unless my test is brain farted, yeah (one sec)
  668. # [16:46] <jgraham> Or so you mean sometimes as in "data URLs"?
  669. # [16:46] <zewt> nope, http
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  671. # [16:48] <zewt> (uh, one sec, my server is being stupid)
  672. # [16:48] <annevk> Anyone know an easy way to test HTTP auth on DreamHost? Apparently PHP running under CGI makes this annoying
  673. # [16:48] <zewt> oh (unrelated), apparently webkit will pop up a password prompt if an xhr request needs credentials (?!)
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  676. # [16:51] <zewt> happens when testing on the local network, but not with my remote server, so possibly latency-related; going to play with cache headers to see if I can make it more deterministic
  677. # [16:51] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  678. # [16:52] <zewt> but FWIW http://zewt.org/~glenn/test-webkit-weird-async-xhr.html locally I get c1: 2, 3, 4, Starting c2, c2: 2, 3, 4, Started c2 (as if the second xhr was sync)
  679. # [16:53] <zewt> (chrome)
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  689. # [17:02] <tantek> good morning, dglazkov
  690. # [17:03] <annevk> zewt: password prompt is per spec
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  692. # [17:03] <annevk> zewt: or a SHOULD per spec, as reportedly that was required by some sites, dunno if that's still true
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  695. # [17:04] <annevk> zewt: sounds weird
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  697. # [17:05] <zewt> isn't that one of those things that's so catastrophic to security that it trumps web compat?
  698. # [17:06] <zewt> can't seem to repro the webkit weirdness when not on the local network, hmm
  699. # [17:07] <GPHemsley> https://hacks.mozilla.org/2013/03/font-inspector-and-elements-firefox-development-highlights/
  700. # [17:07] <GPHemsley> links to the W3C spec for <time> but the WHATWG spec for <data>
  701. # [17:07] * GPHemsley scratches his head.
  702. # [17:09] <annevk> zewt: dunno
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  706. # [17:17] <SimonSapin1> Simon Pieters is sometimes zcorpan on IRC
  707. # [17:17] * SimonSapin1 is now known as SimonSapin
  708. # [17:17] <SimonSapin> eh, wrong channel
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  713. # [17:21] <annevk> SimonSapin: so... data: URL parsing needs to be async and queue tasks and spin the event loop
  714. # [17:22] <annevk> SimonSapin: just like the HTML parser
  715. # [17:22] <annevk> SimonSapin: I'm sorry
  716. # [17:22] <SimonSapin> oh
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  718. # [17:22] <SimonSapin> I have no idea how that works :p
  719. # [17:23] <SimonSapin> annevk: is it useful to write in spec how to decode the data incrementally?
  720. # [17:23] <annevk> It might be enough to say that it happens that way
  721. # [17:23] <zewt> ... when does URL parsing spin the event loop? that's terrible
  722. # [17:24] <SimonSapin> annevk: I mean, if a data: URL is many mega-bytes large, browsers may want to decode incrementally. Is this only an implementation detail or does the spec need to reflect it?
  723. # [17:25] <SimonSapin> In particular, does a partially decoded body trigger an event or something?
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  725. # [17:25] <annevk> SimonSapin: it matters when you load it through XHR or when it contains a <script> and you load it from the address bar
  726. # [17:25] <zewt> having xhr.open() spin the event loop sounds a bit catastrophic
  727. # [17:26] <zewt> unless I'm misunderstanding (which I'm hoping for :)
  728. # [17:26] <jgraham> data uris should be just like any other network data
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  731. # [17:27] <annevk> yeah, there's a difference between URL parsing and obtaining data
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  735. # [17:29] <jgraham> So I'm confused. Presumably parsing urls doesn't spin the event loop? But parsing the resulting data might
  736. # [17:30] <jgraham> For example data:text/html,<script defer src=slow-loading-script>
  737. # [17:31] <zewt> also, you do need to parse a base64 url in advance, since eg. xhr.open("GET", "data:text/html;base64,illegal_string") throws an exception
  738. # [17:32] <zewt> so you can't just stash the URL and parse it incrementally
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  740. # [17:34] <annevk> that it throws an exception is a bug
  741. # [17:34] <zewt> it throws in both chrome and firefox, so i don't think it is
  742. # [17:34] <annevk> Chrome doesn't support data URLs
  743. # [17:34] <annevk> it'll throw either way
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  777. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: public-whatwg-bugs sounds fine
  778. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> I will get it set up
  779. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> but not today
  780. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> probably this weekend
  781. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Nao and I care sightseeing in Chicago today and tomorrow
  782. # [18:10] <annevk> saw on Twitter, go have fun :)
  783. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  804. # [18:55] <matjas> has there even been a browser that executed <script>s in .innerHTML?
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  806. # [18:55] <matjas> “IE used to execute <script defer> when inserted via innerHTML, but that was fixed.” says nzakas; anyone know which IE version(s)?
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  854. # [19:35] <annevk> GPHemsley: given that MIME types are not always in the right group I don't really see the point
  855. # [19:35] <annevk> GPHemsley: and sometimes they're in the same group but with wildly different semantics (e.g. image/svg+xml)
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  860. # [19:40] <zewt> it's not like the "type/subtype" scheme of mime types is for anything but human consumption
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  890. # [20:08] <zcorpan_> so now i'm an editor of cssom, cssom view and cssom values
  891. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> Enjoy
  892. # [20:08] <zcorpan_> to my surprise, cssom values is public domain
  893. # [20:08] <Hixie> not sure whether "sorry" or "congratulations" is more appropriate
  894. # [20:09] <zcorpan_> Hixie: either way, thanks :-)
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  901. # [20:19] <zcorpan_> interesting how glenn took material from cssom (document license) and pasted into a new spec cssom values (public domain)
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  906. # [20:23] <annevk> wait what? he copied my work and put it under CC0?!
  907. # [20:24] <annevk> zcorpan_: good luck, that stuff is a) hard and b) without fixing the underlying model, extra hard
  908. # [20:25] <zcorpan_> annevk: he took your work which was CC0, changed it to the document license, then moved some of it to a new spec with CC0
  909. # [20:25] <annevk> zcorpan_: I had changed CSSOM too? interesting
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  912. # [20:28] <zcorpan_> hmmm. maybe it was glenn who changed from document license to CC0, then changed it back at some point? https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/cssom/rev/74784effb4e3
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  914. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> No, I'm pretty sure annevk did
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  916. # [20:30] <annevk> zcorpan_: that seems to indicate more that he moved away from Anolis
  917. # [20:30] <annevk> zcorpan_: I think Ms2ger is right and I had a split setup, CC0 for editor drafts and W3C for TR/
  918. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> You did TR/ for CSSOM?
  919. # [20:31] <annevk> Seems kinda pointless that Glenn would put a bunch of effort into migrating to his own publishing system and then leave all the bugs in the spec...
  920. # [20:31] <annevk> Ms2ger: It seems I did, back in 2011
  921. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> I dunno, maybe he had fun doing it?
  922. # [20:31] <zcorpan_> i guess this is the wrong place https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/cssom/
  923. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> And maybe it was easier than actual work?
  924. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> zcorpan_, yes
  925. # [20:31] <annevk> In fact, it seems thus far nobody updated my TR/ drafts from cssom and cssom-view
  926. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/
  927. # [20:32] <zewt> can i petition for him to pick a new name
  928. # [20:32] <annevk> Hopefully the CSS WG has realized it should be more careful with people doing actual work
  929. # [20:33] <Ms2ger> Bwahahahahahahaha
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  936. # [20:44] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Gosh, I'm sorry. How did that happen?
  937. # [20:45] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  938. # [20:45] <zcorpan_> i volunteered
  939. # [20:46] <zewt> man. there's no api for anything related to next/previous focusable element and doing it by hand is a pain
  940. # [20:46] <jgraham> Hmm, now I'm wondering if brucel infected you with mind worms masquerading as the common cols
  941. # [20:47] <jgraham> *cold
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  943. # [20:54] <jgraham> ( I guess I should maybe say that I am actually very happy that you are going to take care of those specs)
  944. # [20:54] <jgraham> (I'm glad that I don't have to :)
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  946. # [20:59] <jamesr> zcorpan_, good luck!
  947. # [20:59] <zcorpan_> jamesr: thanks
  948. # [20:59] <jamesr> zcorpan_, have any plan of attack?
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  958. # [21:05] <annevk> oh lol
  959. # [21:05] <annevk> cssom-values does not even mention me
  960. # [21:06] <zcorpan_> jamesr: http://www.w3.org/mid/op.wtweynahidj3kv@simons-macbook-pro.local
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  963. # [21:09] <zcorpan_> annevk: filed a bug
  964. # [21:09] <jamesr> zcorpan_, d'oh, will have to remember my w3c credentials
  965. # [21:09] <zcorpan_> jamesr: first i want to try to get the specs under CC0
  966. # [21:12] * Joins: nessy (~silviapf@124-149-71-84.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  967. # [21:14] <zcorpan_> seems like i've pushed a hot button already
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  971. # [21:23] <jgraham> Well really what were you expecting
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  973. # [21:27] <zcorpan_> heh yeah i'm not surprised
  974. # [21:27] <annevk> So are you co-editor?
  975. # [21:27] <zcorpan_> yes
  976. # [21:27] <annevk> ouch
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  978. # [21:29] <zcorpan_> annevk: glenn's now added you under acks for values
  979. # [21:30] <annevk> ta
  980. # [21:30] <annevk> have fun making it all work
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  982. # [21:31] <annevk> In my experience what you want is tight integration with the rest of CSS, but I'm not sure how realistic all that is
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  986. # [21:32] <SimonSapin> zcorpan_: I genuinely curious and don’t want to imply it’s not, but why is it useful or important to have a public domain copy?
  987. # [21:32] <annevk> Especially with the CSS WG prioritizing organization over solving problems
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  990. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, say you want to quote the spec in the source code of a FOSS project
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  992. # [21:33] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: that’s not allowed with the W3C license?
  993. # [21:33] <annevk> SimonSapin: http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/11/copyright
  994. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, would you say that the W3C document license allows that?
  995. # [21:33] <SimonSapin> I don’t know
  996. # [21:33] <SimonSapin> Let me look at the details …
  997. # [21:33] <zcorpan_> SimonSapin: several reasons. first, it lets people use the text in books and software etc. second, if the people maintaining the spec go "nuts" and screw things up, someone else can take the ball and maintain it somewhere else.
  998. # [21:34] <zcorpan_> without having to rewrite it all from scratch
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  1004. # [21:39] <annevk> zcorpan_: should maybe write a new post simply stating that
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  1006. # [21:40] <SimonSapin> annevk: yes, http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/11/copyright looks mostly about ideology. Writing the practical reasons/consequences would help
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  1008. # [21:42] <SimonSapin> I generally agree with you all, but I’m still judging how bad the situation is
  1009. # [21:42] <SimonSapin> and honestly I don’t want to care about licenses
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  1012. # [21:43] <zewt> also other general reuse (eg. if somebody's speccing a canvas-like API for Python, a normative dependency on HTML and a delta spec is probably a really bad approach)
  1013. # [21:45] <GPHemsley> annevk: That depends on what you believe the semantics are for an image, I suppose.
  1014. # [21:45] <Ms2ger> I dunno if someone speccing a canvas-like API for anything is something to be encouraged ;)
  1015. # [21:45] <GPHemsley> annevk: But zewt makes a valid point.
  1016. # [21:45] <jgraham> As usual glazou misses the point
  1017. # [21:45] <jgraham> As usual I can't say how because he does it in Member space
  1018. # [21:46] <zewt> Ms2ger: at an API level, perhaps not, but the careful definitions of how to draw paths and so on may well have other uses
  1019. # [21:46] <GPHemsley> annevk: Though perhaps not an altogether important one. I'd be interested in hearing your arguments against defining terminology for the various parts.
  1020. # [21:46] <annevk> GPHemsley: there's no processing that I know of that looks at individual parts
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  1022. # [21:47] <GPHemsley> annevk: So do you believe the mimesniff spec is mistaken in doing so?
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  1024. # [21:48] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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  1026. # [21:50] <annevk> GPHemsley: yeah and it contains bugs therefore too
  1027. # [21:50] <annevk> GPHemsley: e.g. "If the supplied media type is an image type supported by the user agent, let matched-type be the result of executing the image type pattern matching algorithm with the resource header as the byte sequence to be matched. "
  1028. # [21:51] <annevk> GPHemsley: is wrong, because image types is defined as wider than the actual supported set
  1029. # [21:51] <annevk> actually, never mind
  1030. # [21:51] * Joins: hendry (~hendry@sg.webconverger.com)
  1031. # [21:52] <annevk> although it does not help either
  1032. # [21:53] <jamesr> zcorpan_, so a big problem in CSS specs is it's impossible to figure out where the hell anything is
  1033. # [21:53] <jamesr> a lot's supposed to be in one of om/view/values
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  1035. # [21:53] <GPHemsley> annevk: If there's something you think can be clarified or improved, please file a bug so I don't lose track of it. :)
  1036. # [21:53] <jamesr> but please cross-ref stuff in a sane way
  1037. # [21:56] <SimonSapin> zcorpan_: we recently resolved to move CSSPageRule to css3-page. Do you think that’s a good idea?
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  1043. # [21:58] <SimonSapin> zcorpan_: also, CSSPageRule needs to get at least a cssRules property of type CSSRuleList to expose the page-margin rules. The issue with that is, it doesn’t preserve the position of at-rules compared to declaration. It’s not significant in @page, but it could be in future at-rules that mix declarations and at-rules.
  1044. # [21:58] <zcorpan_> SimonSapin: dunno. having the interface in the same spec that defines the feature seems sane on the face of it
  1045. # [21:59] * Joins: Rubennn (~Rubennn@apher.gewooniets.nl)
  1046. # [21:59] <zcorpan_> SimonSapin: but then a lot of cssom should also move to other specs, no?
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  1048. # [21:59] <SimonSapin> probably
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  1050. # [22:03] <SimonSapin> zcorpan_: it’s already been done for fonts and conditional rules, at least
  1051. # [22:04] <zcorpan_> SimonSapin: ok
  1052. # [22:04] <SimonSapin> … although that’s not visible in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#the-cssfontfacerule-interface or http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#the-cssmediarule-interface …
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  1057. # [22:11] <annevk> (I pushed for that, fwiw)
  1058. # [22:12] <annevk> it's what HTML and SVG and URL and ... are doing too
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  1062. # [22:24] <zcorpan_> thanks SimonSapin
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  1064. # [22:25] <SimonSapin> annevk: what is "that" you pushed for? Moving OM for specific at-rules to their respective spec?
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  1066. # [22:25] <annevk> yeah
  1067. # [22:25] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1068. # [22:26] <SimonSapin> oh, here come the off-list arguments
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  1074. # [22:31] <annevk> :/
  1075. # [22:31] <annevk> I should not have gotten internet before a proper desk, this is no good
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  1077. # [22:34] <zcorpan_> annevk: new place?
  1078. # [22:35] <annevk> zcorpan_: I moved to the UK a while back
  1079. # [22:35] <zcorpan_> yeah. you noticed now you're missing a desk? :-)
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  1081. # [22:36] <annevk> well now I've internet at home that's somewhat reasonable, so yes :-)
  1082. # [22:37] <annevk> been trying to find some kind of second hand victorian desk but it seems like I need to settle for something else
  1083. # [22:38] <zcorpan_> i'd like to get a standing desk of some sort at home
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  1099. # [23:10] <dcheng> Question... if the spec defines an attribute to return a DOMString[], it would be incorrect to return null if it's empty right?
  1100. # [23:10] <annevk> dcheng: yes
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  1123. # Session Close: Thu Mar 14 00:00:00 2013

The end :)