/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-06-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 13 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:28] <Hixie> so since adding the referer info to the bugs, i'm finding that many of the bogus bugs have no referer field at all. https:->http: maybe? (searches maybe?)
  12. # [00:28] <Hixie> e.g. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22285
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  20. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> If they have no referrer, it's likely that they... weren't referred. They were direct submissions against the submission url by probing spambots.
  21. # [00:51] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  22. # [00:52] <Hixie> i mean the referrer of the spec, not of the file-bug.cgi script
  23. # [00:52] <Hixie> the referrer of the latter seems to always be one of the specs
  24. # [00:52] <Hixie> (anecdotally, more often the w3.org/TR specs for the crazy bugs, more often the whatwg.org/html multipage spec for the annoyingly insightful and hard to fix bugs)
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  33. # [01:05] <reyre_> Hixie: so the WebVTTCue webidl doesn't have [setter throws] on the alignment, vertical, and position attributes, but down lower it says that they are supposed to throw on setting
  34. # [01:05] <reyre_> is that correct?
  35. # [01:05] <Hixie> what is [setter throws] ?
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  37. # [01:07] <reyre_> Hixie: i could be wrong about this, but i've seen before in other webidls that when an attribute could throw an error on setting it has a [SetterThrows] above the attribute ?
  38. # [01:07] <Hixie> ah
  39. # [01:07] <Hixie> that's new to me
  40. # [01:07] <Hixie> i don't think i've put that on any of the webidl i've ever written
  41. # [01:07] <jsbell> It's old
  42. # [01:08] <jsbell> A couple years (more?) ago the need to express throwing behavior in WebIDL was removed.
  43. # [01:08] <jsbell> All done in prose now.
  44. # [01:09] <reyre_> hmm okay thanks jsbell
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  46. # [01:09] <reyre_> thanks Hixie
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  50. # [01:24] <rillian> reyre_: [SetterThrows] survives in the mozilla webidl compiler as an extension to control code generation
  51. # [01:25] <rillian> so it's needed in the implementation's webidl, but not the spec
  52. # [01:25] <rillian> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/WebIDL_bindings#Throws
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  55. # [01:26] <rillian> i.e. we omit the error object reference in the binding call when that decorator is not present
  56. # [01:26] <Hixie> seems like it'd be safer to have [NeverThrows], so the code gets generated in the case where someone didn't think to check
  57. # [01:27] <rillian> I think they'd notice when they implemented the exception, because there'd be no way to throw it.
  58. # [01:28] <jsbell> Blink and Blink have something similar.
  59. # [01:28] <rillian> and concensus was (we wanted that) most things didn't throw
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  61. # [01:28] * GPHemsley wonders if HTML shouldn't have its own custom icon like the other specs, to differentiate from WHATWG itself.
  62. # [01:28] <jsbell> Er, Blink and WebKIt
  63. # [01:29] <reyre_> rillian: awesome
  64. # [01:29] <reyre_> i think marcus is good to go for that then
  65. # [01:29] <rillian> great
  66. # [01:30] <msaad> yeap
  67. # [01:31] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  68. # [01:34] <GPHemsley> Hixie: @WHATWG seems not to have tweeted any changes after r7953
  69. # [01:34] <Hixie> that's anne's department
  70. # [01:35] <GPHemsley> naturally
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  120. # [03:35] <annevk> So that is weird... For @WHATWG to stop and html5.org to continue...
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  126. # [03:47] <annevk> So it seems a Python module has disappeared
  127. # [03:50] <GPHemsley> Hixie: How quickly did DreamHost say they were going to upgrade?
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  144. # [04:04] <annevk> It seems "{'errors': [{'message': 'The Twitter REST API v1 will soon stop functioning. Please migrate to API v1.1. https://dev.twitter.com/docs/api/1.1/overview.', 'code': 68}]}" might be the problem :/
  145. # [04:05] <zewt> nothing encourages using apis like forcing everyone to rewrite things
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  148. # [04:11] <annevk> Yeah, not really sure what the right approach is here.
  149. # [04:13] <Hixie> is there a python twitter module we can rely on?
  150. # [04:13] <Hixie> also, woot, an anne online!
  151. # [04:13] <Hixie> there was some bug i was supposed to ask you about
  152. # [04:14] <annevk> Hixie: the GBK thing is not completely sorted out, basically
  153. # [04:14] <Hixie> ah yeah, that's the one
  154. # [04:14] <Hixie> ok
  155. # [04:14] <annevk> Hixie: there's some outstanding questions as to whether we can merge it into gb18030 or not
  156. # [04:14] <Hixie> is there some bug i can follow on that?
  157. # [04:16] <annevk> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16862
  158. # [04:17] <Hixie> awesome
  159. # [04:17] <annevk> Hixie: there's a Python module which we're using. However, I'm having a hard time understanding how Python module updates work, especially across Python versions, etc.
  160. # [04:18] <annevk> Hixie: versioned software development is not something I'm very capable at. And understanding which Python version executes and which modules it'll pick up... I don't even...
  161. # [04:18] * annevk prefers browsers
  162. # [04:18] <Hixie> yeah i dunno how it works for python
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  164. # [04:19] <Hixie> ok. based on that bug i'm guessing that GB18030 is fine as a default encoding.
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  166. # [04:19] <Hixie> gonna call it for now until i get a specific compat complaint.
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  168. # [04:31] <annevk> Twitter account will remain broken for a bit until I find someone that can fix the Python setup. Not really interested in going through that while sleep deprived.
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  230. # [08:41] <matjas> Twitter — breaking the web one API endpoint at a time
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  258. # [10:11] <jgraham> (In principle I can probably help fix the Twitter thing. Or at least I generally understand how Python works)
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  304. # [13:04] <Ms2ger> reyre, [SetterThrows] is Gecko-only, it isn't supposed to end up in specs
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  307. # [13:17] <mitsuhiko> hey everybody
  308. # [13:17] <mitsuhiko> does anyone have some authoritive answer in regards to http headers and rfc5987?
  309. # [13:18] <mitsuhiko> it looks like browsers are currently handling this encoding for their internal usage, but xmlhttprequest returns the raw string?
  310. # [13:19] <mitsuhiko> does that mean users of the XMLHttpRequest object are supposed to do that on their own?
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  344. # [15:11] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: Do you know about this? (See mitsuhiko’s question above.)
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  351. # [15:32] <zewt> did something happen to the styling of the webvtt spec, heh
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  353. # [15:33] <zewt> seems hard to read now (but I'm not sure why), and I don't remember getting that impression the last time I opened it
  354. # [15:35] <zewt> oh, it's because the underlined text is black, instead of blue (thanks @ web.archive.org)
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  358. # [15:35] <zewt> or maybe because the spacing changed
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  363. # [15:40] <annevk> jgraham: still interested?
  364. # [15:41] <jgraham> annevk: In?
  365. # [15:41] <jgraham> The twitter thing?
  366. # [15:42] <jgraham> Sure
  367. # [15:42] <jgraham> Also, probably for most other things that I previously expressed interest in
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  369. # [15:42] <SimonSapin> annevk: Do you know about this? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20130613#l-308
  370. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20130613#l-308
  371. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: jinx
  372. # [15:44] <annevk> SimonSapin: the specification doesn't care
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  374. # [15:45] <annevk> SimonSapin: well, it treats values as byte sequences, not strings
  375. # [15:45] <annevk> (although it somewhat confusingly exposes them as strings...)
  376. # [15:45] <SimonSapin> mitsuhiko: ^
  377. # [15:46] <mitsuhiko> annevk: eg: client libraries have to decode the headers by hand?
  378. # [15:47] <mitsuhiko> does that also apply to outgoing headers?
  379. # [15:47] <annevk> mitsuhiko: yeah
  380. # [15:47] <annevk> yeah
  381. # [15:48] <annevk> basically the core HTTP header value type is byte sequences on top of which they created a number more specific value types
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  383. # [15:48] <annevk> however, the API only knows about the core HTTP header value type
  384. # [15:49] <mitsuhiko> it's a bit of an unfortunate situation because from what i can see, no javascript high level library actually implements proper header parsing/emitting wrt to unicode
  385. # [15:52] <annevk> it'd be quite complicated to do so even
  386. # [15:53] <annevk> mitsuhiko: you might want to file a bug on http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/ with the use case for outgoing and incoming headers you have in mind
  387. # [15:53] <annevk> mitsuhiko: it might be worth considering for an upgrade or new API
  388. # [15:54] <mitsuhiko> annevk: i will have to think about this first before i propose anything. I am just going through various unicode related issues for a server side http library right now and wanted to compare with browsers.
  389. # [15:54] <annevk> fair enough
  390. # [15:55] <annevk> in general I think they haven't really designed HTTP headers particularly well
  391. # [15:56] <mitsuhiko> it definitely got worse over time. by now 5 rfcs are involved in encoding and headers: http://greenbytes.de/tech/tc2231/ (not counting the cookie headers)
  392. # [15:56] <SimonSapin> there might have been more evolution than design involved…
  393. # [15:56] <mitsuhiko> SimonSapin: i'm not complaining :)
  394. # [15:56] <SimonSapin> I am :)
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  401. # [16:15] <GPHemsley> mitsuhiko: Hey, that's a useful link. Thanks for that!
  402. # [16:17] <GPHemsley> annevk: I'm not too familiar with CSP; I think I got the directive wrong for the regular browsing context
  403. # [16:17] <GPHemsley> annevk: (I used 'connect-src')
  404. # [16:17] <GPHemsley> annevk: Which makes me wonder if there even is a directive for the regular browsing context (maybe 'default-src'?)
  405. # [16:18] <GPHemsley> annevk: Also, it makes me wonder if we need another context for 'connect-src'
  406. # [16:18] <annevk> GPHemsley: I don't think CSP blocks following links
  407. # [16:18] <GPHemsley> perhaps not
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  426. # [16:54] <GPHemsley> hmm...
  427. # [16:56] <GPHemsley> parse natural DNA into natural pre-RNA; remove introns from natural pre-RNA to make natural mRNA; serialize natural mRNA into synthetic cDNA; patent synthetic cDNA
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  429. # [16:57] <GPHemsley> (that's like saying a potentially-malformed format from the wild is natural and unpatentable, but serializing it into a format that follows the ABNF results in a patentable form)
  430. # [16:58] * GPHemsley throws his hands up
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  459. # [18:07] <zewt> today's insanity: in mobile safari, body { 50%; } works, but html body { 50%; } gives 25%
  460. # [18:07] <Ms2ger> html, body?
  461. # [18:08] <zewt> no, the real rule is html[something] body
  462. # [18:08] <zewt> oh i see what's happening
  463. # [18:08] <zewt> body { zoom: 50%; } body { body: 50%; } becomes 25%, instead of just overriding the rule
  464. # [18:08] <zewt> that's ... batshit insane
  465. # [18:08] <zewt> er, zoom:
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  467. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> zewt: is zoom supposed to be the same as scale() in a transform?
  468. # [18:11] <zewt> i'm not sure of the particulars
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  471. # [18:14] * GPHemsley recalls 'zoom' not being an interoperable property
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  474. # [18:14] <zewt> i don't think so: a transform lays the contents out the same way, then scales the result; zoom changes the size of the contents, so it affects the actual flow
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  476. # [18:14] <Ms2ger> I thought it was something you used to... Force hasLayout in IE?
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  480. # [18:18] <GPHemsley> annevk: I wonder if the 'sandbox' directive might be more appropriate?
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  484. # [18:20] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Does HTML treat XHR/WebSocket/EventSource requests as different from <script> requests?
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  503. # [18:46] * GPHemsley wonders why CSP uses 400 instead of 403
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  526. # [19:14] <GPHemsley> hmm... an XHR/WebSocket/EventSource request is sort of a hybrid between a script context and a (nested) browsing context...
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  528. # [19:15] <GPHemsley> leaning more towards the latter
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  557. # [19:47] <smaug____> slightlyoff: ping
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  559. # [19:47] <smaug____> since annevk isn't here
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  563. # [19:49] <smaug____> do you recall why http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#promises-model requires then-property to be callabke.
  564. # [19:50] <smaug____> it would be simpler to just throw and catch and call reject in case then wasn't callable
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  567. # [19:54] <slightlyoff> We're going to go for ghetto branding, not what's there now, methinks
  568. # [19:55] * Ms2ger wonders why we're even implementing it now if we're going to have to rewrite everything anyway
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  573. # [19:59] <smaug____> Ms2ger: yeah
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  612. # [20:53] <Hixie> GPHemsley: yes, but maybe not in the way you care about? not sure what you're asking
  613. # [20:54] <Hixie> hm, floats are hard to use right.
  614. # [20:54] <Hixie> i want something that floats to the right of my paragraph, but comes after the paragraph in the dom
  615. # [20:54] <Hixie> not sure that's even possible
  616. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> Float your paragraph left?
  617. # [20:55] <Hixie> the paragraph is part of a long document
  618. # [20:55] <Hixie> think <p> vs <p class=note> in the spec
  619. # [20:56] <Hixie> i want the .note to float to the right of the p
  620. # [20:56] * Parts: jreading (~Adium@204.56.125.50)
  621. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> !p + p.note {}?
  622. # [20:56] <Hixie> that doesn't work if i don't know their relative sizes ahead of time
  623. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> Or do you want something that works practically rather than theoretically?
  624. # [20:56] <Hixie> practically, yes
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  626. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> No idea, then
  627. # [20:57] <Hixie> (also, really, we're going with the "!" thing? ugh)
  628. # [20:57] <Hixie> (:matches is such a better solution.)
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  631. # [20:58] <Ms2ger> I dunno
  632. # [20:58] <Ms2ger> It's not like anybody is implementing
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  634. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> what's 1?
  635. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> err, !
  636. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> what's !?
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  638. # [21:04] <Ms2ger> If you have !a + b { color: green }, the a is green
  639. # [21:05] <jgraham> Hasn't Hixie been promoting :matches since like 2000?
  640. # [21:06] <Hixie> yeah
  641. # [21:06] <Hixie> but i'm not active in the wg
  642. # [21:06] <Hixie> so... :-)
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  644. # [21:07] <jgraham> Well yeah, but it's like "<Hixie> We should solve it using :matches" is a permanent feature of the web
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  720. # [23:12] <GPHemsley> IDK, ! makes sense to me, now that I remember what it means.
  721. # [23:13] <GPHemsley> since it patterns with !important
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  723. # [23:16] <GPHemsley> plus, you'd have to explain to me how :matches would work
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  734. # [23:43] <Hixie> GPHemsley: with !, how do you pick an element that has either a <p> next sibling, a <div> next sibling, or an <ol> next sibling?
  735. # [23:44] <GPHemsley> isn't there any() for that?
  736. # [23:44] <Hixie> any is a variant of matches
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  738. # [23:44] <GPHemsley> !* :any(p, div, ol)
  739. # [23:44] <GPHemsley> or something
  740. # [23:45] <Hixie> an even better example would be, how do you match an element that has both an <ul> following subling, and an <ol> following sibling
  741. # [23:45] <GPHemsley> when would that happen?
  742. # [23:45] <GPHemsley> or you mean generically
  743. # [23:45] <GPHemsley> not immediately
  744. # [23:45] <GPHemsley> himm
  745. # [23:45] <GPHemsley> -i
  746. # [23:45] <Hixie> you could do it as a pair, as in: !* ~ ul ~ ol, !* ~ ol ~ ul
  747. # [23:45] <Hixie> but that quickly gets out of hand
  748. # [23:46] <GPHemsley> !* ul/ol
  749. # [23:46] <Hixie> with :matches it's just :matches(# ~ ol):matches(# ~ ul)
  750. # [23:46] * GPHemsley needs to brush up on his selectors
  751. # [23:46] <Hixie> what's "/"?
  752. # [23:46] <GPHemsley> dunno
  753. # [23:46] <GPHemsley> just made it up
  754. # [23:46] <Hixie> hah
  755. # [23:46] <Hixie> k
  756. # [23:46] <Hixie> i guess that's fair
  757. # [23:46] <Hixie> i'm making up :matches :-D
  758. # [23:46] <GPHemsley> :)
  759. # [23:47] <Hixie> anyway :matches() is just a pseudo that matches if its selector matches the node in question, with "#" being a placeholder in the argument for "the current element being checked"
  760. # [23:49] <GPHemsley> does :nth-match() help here?
  761. # [23:50] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  762. # [23:50] <GPHemsley> (the spec is kinda sparse on examples)
  763. # [23:51] <GPHemsley> oh, it's E! not !E
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  766. # [23:53] <GPHemsley> *! ( (~ ul) && (~ ol) )
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  768. # [23:54] <GPHemsley> oh, apparently the spec is not consistent on the placement of the !
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  776. # [23:59] <GPHemsley> oh, apparently :matches() is already in the spec, too
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  778. # [23:59] <GPHemsley> but it only takes two arguments?
  779. # [23:59] <GPHemsley> I'm not clear on the syntax here
  780. # Session Close: Fri Jun 14 00:00:00 2013

The end :)