/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-01-07 / end

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  181. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: what do gulp and browserfy have to do with streams?
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  272. # [09:32] <zcorpan> hsivonen: iirc https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=329531 applies to gecko, too
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  277. # [09:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
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  279. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: "I propose we don't address this" from sof.. why? because it will break things?
  280. # [09:45] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: s/will/is not proven not to/
  281. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> ok
  282. # [09:45] <Ms2ger> From ap?
  283. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> sigbjorn from oepra
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  293. # [10:16] <annevk> SimonSapin: I thought :scope was still a thing
  294. # [10:16] <annevk> SimonSapin: I thought it moved to Selectors or some such, TabAtkins?
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  297. # [10:21] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/#scope-pseudo
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  302. # [10:30] <annevk> \o/ Chrome is going to remove obsolete DOM stuff. Sadly they still refer to it as DOM4
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  306. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think that's just because Dominic didn't get the memo that it should be called something else
  307. # [10:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: he does refer to the WHATWG copy so there's that, indeed
  308. # [10:36] <annevk> I had to commute today and be in at 9AM. That shit is hard
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  310. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> annevk: hard to find a parking space big enough for your cadillac
  311. # [10:41] <annevk> Can of sardines is nothing compared to the Circle line
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  314. # [10:42] <annevk> Central line, that is, still getting used to the terminology
  315. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> could be worse: You could be living in Mountain View
  316. # [10:44] <Ms2ger> Or Tokyo? :)
  317. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> heh
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  321. # [11:06] * jgraham wonders where annevk is
  322. # [11:07] <annevk> jgraham: http://theodi.org/
  323. # [11:07] <jgraham> Why?
  324. # [11:11] <hsivonen> annevk: whoa. the Thunderbird compose encoding menu is worse than I expected
  325. # [11:12] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=943252#c9
  326. # [11:14] <annevk> jgraham: the W3C TAG is meeting there
  327. # [11:15] <jgraham> annevk: Oh, sucks to be you
  328. # [11:16] <annevk> hsivonen: ugh
  329. # [11:23] <annevk> hsivonen: sorry I haven't been responsive lately, it's not going to get much better until mid-March or so
  330. # [11:23] <annevk> hsivonen: I plan to focus on Encoding stuff next week
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  333. # [11:29] <hsivonen> annevk: OK.
  334. # [11:29] <hsivonen> FWIW, I'm inclined to think that Thunderbird shouldn't bother the user with composition encoding UI at all
  335. # [11:30] <hsivonen> but my first goal is getting cruft out of m-c. not redesigning TB
  336. # [11:36] <annevk> I think email inevitably ends up being a web thing, so I'm not too worried about Thunderbird
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  338. # [11:41] <hsivonen> annevk: the reason why I end up writing essays for the TB bugs is that the mailnews dependencies make it hard to remove code that's dead code in Firefox
  339. # [11:42] <annevk> Understood, the dependencies are sad, especially so long after the Firefox fork
  340. # [11:42] <annevk> The RDF-in-Gecko apologists are also making me somewhat sad
  341. # [11:45] <hsivonen> annevk: that thread took an unexpected turn
  342. # [11:45] <krijn> MikeSmith: thanks voor the retweets! :)
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  345. # [11:54] <annevk> hsivonen: the last guy also frequently comments on www-tag, not unexpected
  346. # [11:54] <annevk> hsivonen: felt similar to how suddenly a bunch of XSLT apologists found out blink-dev exists
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  348. # [12:00] <hsivonen> and this RDF stuff doesn't even have anything to do with the Semantic Web while XSLT has something to do with using XSLT
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  352. # [12:03] <annevk> I guess there's a point to be made that the dev.platform discussion is worse :-)
  353. # [12:03] <annevk> http://w3ctag.github.io/capability-urls/2014-01-03.html is pretty awesome by the way
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  355. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> krijn: yup
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  358. # [12:20] <krijn> MikeSmith: :|
  359. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> nice to use twitter for something useful
  360. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> "The nightmare scenario would be that the web platform ceases to be a platform at all, and simply becomes an amalgamation of JS bindings to various operating system APIs of varying capability"
  361. # [12:27] <darobin> hahaha
  362. # [12:28] <darobin> MikeSmith: where that from?
  363. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> darobin: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/4jBAnIVwrt0/v2qzjSNn_E8J
  364. # [12:28] <darobin> oh, I haven't read that thread yet — it seemed to hold promise :)
  365. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> darobin: maybe but I much prefer the "should we use auto?" thread on webkit-dev
  366. # [12:31] <darobin> haha, I started muting that one
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  368. # [12:33] <darobin> MikeSmith: Jon Rimmer does have a very good point though
  369. # [12:34] <darobin> I mean, we've been talking about providing some sort of low level access to hardware, of the USB API kind, instead of creating dedicated APIs for all sorts of things
  370. # [12:34] <darobin> which makes a lot of sense in many ways — but what happens if the generic hardware API starts to become meaningless?
  371. # [12:36] <annevk> MikeSmith: has there been any recent interesting webkit-dev thread?
  372. # [12:36] <annevk> MikeSmith: given the way Apple works I expect most of it to be on secret-webkit-dev
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  374. # [12:41] <darobin> annevk: it does feel that way reading the list
  375. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> darobin: bingo (about if generic hardware API starts to become meaningless)
  376. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: there have been some interesting ones yeah
  377. # [12:43] * MikeSmith looks back
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  379. # [12:43] <annevk> darobin: you need something more generic than USB or Bluetooth
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  381. # [12:43] <annevk> darobin: it needs to be on the level of "implement a driver for a connected device"
  382. # [12:44] <darobin> annevk: yeah, but that still likely relies on OS-level assumptions. Also, I am always suspicious of that level of abstraction
  383. # [12:44] <annevk> darobin: which I guess comes down to having something similar to USB or Bluetooth for the web, and if your device wants to be compatible it needs to support that
  384. # [12:44] <annevk> darobin: you need to start from the assumption that the web is the OS
  385. # [12:44] <darobin> annevk: or there is a browser mapping of that to USB
  386. # [12:45] <darobin> annevk: yeah, I started from that assumption a long time ago :)
  387. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: anyway the src-N thread on webkit-dev was gold. looking forward to more like that
  388. # [12:45] <darobin> but still, it needs to be resilient to architectural changes
  389. # [12:45] <annevk> MikeSmith: fair
  390. # [12:45] <annevk> darobin: might just be called HTTP in the end
  391. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> QUIC
  392. # [12:45] <darobin> annevk: that's all very handwavy :)
  393. # [12:46] <darobin> hardware is, well, hard
  394. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> oops I mean SPDY
  395. # [12:46] <annevk> darobin: once you go down the route of two pieces that need to be connected over a network, you end up there pretty quickly
  396. # [12:47] <annevk> darobin: at first you think you need to have something low-level because nothing is capable, like WAP to HTML, and at some point you realize you were wrong
  397. # [12:47] <darobin> annevk: I know, and in fact there's very interesting work in that area. Though at this point they've made rather brutal optimisations
  398. # [12:48] <darobin> annevk: I will be amused when this all leads to EXI being supported in the browser (it's a common component in ZigBee's HTTP hardware stuff)
  399. # [12:48] <darobin> (it's one of the "brutal optimisations")
  400. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> darobin: somebody told me HTTP2 people were looking at EXI for imspiration for header compression
  401. # [12:51] <darobin> MikeSmith: I'm not sure if I'd want them to go that way, but it could in fact yield interesting results
  402. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> and today I see https://github.com/twitter/hpack but haven't looked at it the code
  403. # [12:51] <darobin> I suspect the complexity might be excessive though
  404. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> darobin: I dunno, Hiro told me that. Nakajima. and he's following it alll pretty closely
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  406. # [12:52] <darobin> one of the advantages of using EXI is that people can compete on encoder quality while remaining interoperably decodable
  407. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> yeah that would be a good advantage
  408. # [12:52] <darobin> MikeSmith: I had mentioned it to the SPDY folks a long time ago when they had started working on this but they were dismissive
  409. # [12:52] <zcorpan> at least the "punch in the face" thread was a bit funny
  410. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> a lot has changed since then I guess
  411. # [12:53] <darobin> well, I guess that if someone involved in it has understood that the "X" in "EXI" is accidental, then advocacy can make headway from there
  412. # [12:54] <darobin> if EXI ever makes it into HTTP2 I think I'll retire
  413. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: "punch in the face" thread?
  414. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/pmarca/status/419257504913448960 btw
  415. # [12:54] <darobin> that's enough evil for a single lifetime
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  417. # [12:55] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/mid/01EDE259-9B0C-47BE-BA09-536877558EDD@gmail.com
  418. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ah yeah that guy was telling it like it is, really
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  420. # [12:58] <darobin> yeah that was pretty funny :)
  421. # [12:58] <darobin> jgraham: I'm done reviewing https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/526, I'll leave the python bits to someone else
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  423. # [12:59] <jgraham> darobin: Given the number of comments that's probably just as well :p
  424. # [12:59] <darobin> heh
  425. # [12:59] <jgraham> I might have to quibble over some style issues, but generally great work, thanks
  426. # [12:59] <darobin> well I did read the Python code, but I don't have much to say beyond the fact that I find it weird you find it easier to include a complete HTML serialiser rather than just use a template :)
  427. # [12:59] <darobin> jgraham: you're more than welcome :)
  428. # [13:00] <darobin> I can see where the style issues are coming from; I mean, it's JS written more or less as if it were Python
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  447. # [13:54] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I agree with darobin for once (on ||) :)
  448. # [13:56] <jgraham> Sigh
  449. # [13:56] <jgraham> Well if everyone disagrees with me I will change it, but I don't think it's at all clearer
  450. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> uh oh things are heating up on that review. I feel a "punch in the face" message possibilty
  451. # [13:57] <jgraham> So I don't understand *why* people like it. Because it's slightly shorter? Because it feels clever?
  452. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> idiomatic
  453. # [13:58] <jgraham> ("slightly shorter" is honestly the best legitimate reason I can come up with, so if there is a better one I would like to know)
  454. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> Doesn't evaluate the x in x ? x : y twice
  455. # [13:59] <jgraham> MikeSmith: But I don't understand why it's idiomatic
  456. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> And the comparison with python doesn't make sense, it isn't "condition and value_if_true or value_if_false" but "value_if_true and value_if_true or value_if_false"
  457. # [14:00] <jgraham> Ms2ger: That isn't an actual problem in any case here and could be solved with the use of a variable if it was
  458. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I don't either in this case, really.
  459. # [14:00] <jgraham> Ms2ger: In python people have written value_if_true or value_if_false
  460. # [14:00] <jgraham> It works in exactly the same way
  461. # [14:00] <Ms2ger> Well yes
  462. # [14:00] <Ms2ger> Let's do that, then :)
  463. # [14:00] <jgraham> But these days I would expect anyone to use the ternary operator in Python
  464. # [14:01] <jgraham> (in either case)
  465. # [14:01] <jgraham> Certianly I would always write value_if_true if value_if_true else value_if_false
  466. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> I know you would :)
  467. # [14:02] <Ms2ger> I'm not convinced about anyone, though
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  471. # [14:09] <darobin> whoa, I hadn't realised Ms2ger agreed with me
  472. # [14:09] <darobin> I might have to change my mind
  473. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> :D
  474. # [14:10] <jgraham> Good, then maybe we can end up with code that isn't only accessible to seasoned js veterans :p
  475. # [14:11] <darobin> oh please, this is an entry-level idiom
  476. # [14:11] <jgraham> But seriously, I am bored of arguing about this
  477. # [14:11] <jgraham> If you are prepared to forego this change resolve the issues
  478. # [14:11] <darobin> jgraham: hey! you're the one who just reopened the argument :)
  479. # [14:11] <jgraham> Otherwise I will change it
  480. # [14:12] <darobin> jgraham: IIRC the only problem I care about strongly is the asynchrony one
  481. # [14:12] <darobin> because that's actually a bug
  482. # [14:13] <darobin> the rest is IIRC just good practice stuff
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  484. # [14:13] <jgraham> So the only other thing in the review that I recall thinking is better as-is was some of the public-vs-private stuff
  485. # [14:14] <darobin> public-vs-private?
  486. # [14:14] <darobin> oh you mean putting all your variables as attributes?
  487. # [14:14] <jgraham> Weren't there some things that you complained were only used from within the class?
  488. # [14:14] <darobin> oh, yes
  489. # [14:15] <darobin> it's not so much that I mind, but in reviewing the code if I see a method exposed I expect it to be something that's used from outside somehow
  490. # [14:15] <darobin> so for instance I'd wonder why load() doesn't take a path
  491. # [14:15] <darobin> it looked like you split out the init code into methods rather systematically, but it's not clear that they could actually meaningfully be used on their own
  492. # [14:16] <jgraham> I don't think they can, but the system was nice
  493. # [14:16] <darobin> jgraham: I don't reckon this is code that will get used by other code as a library, so it likely doesn't really matter in the long run
  494. # [14:16] <jgraham> No, I don't think anyone else will be using this for anything
  495. # [14:16] <darobin> but you never know, so I reviewed as I'd review any piece of JS
  496. # [14:17] <jgraham> Yep, like I said it's much appreciated
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  520. # [15:24] <zcorpan> yoav: your way to write attributes is backwards (to what i'm used to, anyway) :-)
  521. # [15:25] <yoav> zcorpan: that sounds very likely :)
  522. # [15:27] <yoav> I normally don't use the @ thing to write attributes, so when I do, I get it wrong
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  524. # [15:29] <yoav> zcorpan: Regarding https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/picture-element/issues/89 , it requires direct changes in the HTML spec, right? Or are there existing hooks that can allow that?
  525. # [15:30] <zcorpan> yoav: i don't think it requires changes to the HTML spec in particular
  526. # [15:33] <zcorpan> yoav: the bug is asking to change "When asked to update the list of source sets for a given picture element picture, user agents must do the following:" to "When asked to update the list of source sets for a given img element img, user agents must do the following:" and then write the algorithm in terms of that
  527. # [15:33] <zcorpan> yoav: the difference is subtle, i guess
  528. # [15:34] <yoav> zcorpan: Yeah, I missed that
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  530. # [15:36] <yoav> If no external hooks are required, I agree with you on this issue
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  537. # [16:04] <Ms2ger> "USPTO.GOV still has URLs that return HTTP/0.9 responses."
  538. # [16:04] <Ms2ger> Yay, back-compat
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  584. # [17:56] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Compat with HTTP/0.9 is actually wonderful. Try and parse the response as HTTP/1.1; if you fail, treat it as HTTP/0.9.
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  754. # [20:14] * esprehn_ is now known as esprehn
  755. # [20:15] <Hixie> why does http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2725 not work in firefox and safari?
  756. # [20:15] <Hixie> am i being dumb?
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  759. # [20:21] <jory> Hixie: Seems like it's working in FF, AFAICT.
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  761. # [20:21] <Hixie> what do you get?
  762. # [20:22] * Hixie updates his nightly
  763. # [20:22] <Hixie> i get no message back even on the latest nightly
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  777. # [20:35] <jory> Hixie: Actually, on reading what the code is actually supposed to do, it's not working in Chrome or FF... looks like setting <body.onmessage> doesn't actually set up your listener properly.
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  779. # [20:35] * jory remembers that consistency does not imply functioning, cause things can be consistently broken too
  780. # [20:37] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think offsetWidth is not useful to test since it has an explicit "am i rendered?" path and returns 0
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  782. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> Hixie, zero with setting the IDL attribute in Fx
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  785. # [20:45] <Hixie> jory: i get a message in chrome, at least
  786. # [20:45] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah, possible. not sure what is right to test.
  787. # [20:45] <Hixie> zcorpan: see thread in whatwg
  788. # [20:45] <Hixie> Ms2ger: ?
  789. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> document.body.onmessage = ... works
  790. # [20:47] <jory> Hixie: Yeah, it works in Canary, just not the... normal... one.
  791. # [20:47] <jory> Public one? I don't know what the term for the standard issue is.
  792. # [20:49] <Hixie> Ms2ger: weird
  793. # [20:49] <Hixie> jory: ah yeah, i'm only testing dev here
  794. # [20:50] <Hixie> i believe they call their variants stable, beta, dev, and canary i think
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  799. # [20:53] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe window.matchMedia. it returns null in firefox when the frame is invisible. blink returns the right object with .matches == true for '(width:0px)' as the query
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  801. # [20:53] <Hixie> ah, not familiar with that API
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  803. # [20:54] <Hixie> like i said in the thread, though, i'm happy to spec stuff if nobody wants to own this on the CSS side.
  804. # [20:54] <zcorpan> yeah i'm just popping in here to be clever :-)
  805. # [20:56] <Hixie> :-)
  806. # [20:57] <zcorpan> svg <switch> might also work
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  808. # [20:59] <zcorpan> or maybe that didn't do media queries
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  815. # [21:15] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140107#l-387 - something in particular in the thread being gold? (pointer?)
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  882. # [23:33] <Ms2ger> Hixie, dom.spec.whatwg.org appears to be down
  883. # [23:33] <Ms2ger> annevk-cloud, ^
  884. # [23:34] <krijn> Haha, noobs!
  885. # [23:34] <Ms2ger> Also, how do you spec "in the DOM"?
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  894. # [23:48] <Hixie> Ms2ger: wfm
  895. # [23:49] <Hixie> Ms2ger: how do you mean, "in the DOM"?
  896. # [23:49] <Hixie> Ms2ger: if you mean "in a document", HTML has some macros for that
  897. # [23:49] <Ms2ger> Furthest ancestor is the document
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  899. # [23:49] <Ms2ger> And seems to be up now, yes
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  901. # [23:50] <Ms2ger> And "in a document" was what I was looking for
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  909. # Session Close: Wed Jan 08 00:00:00 2014

The end :)