/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-04-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 16 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <annevk> aklein: either Domenic_ or Allen should solve the issue with promises and the settings object
  4. # [00:01] <annevk> Domenic_: yes, a classic, Castle in the Sky
  5. # [00:01] <annevk> I just realized that with https://bugs.ecmascript.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1898 not fixed, the Realm API is probably not adequate in expressing the current setup
  6. # [00:01] <Domenic_> ah yes, always fun
  7. # [00:01] <Domenic_> annevk: that seems urgent
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  9. # [00:03] <annevk> Domenic_: I guess I'll email es-discuss again, see what they say...
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  11. # [00:03] <Domenic_> annevk: the realm api argument helps
  12. # [00:03] <Domenic_> annevk: I still think my position on script settings objects from http://esdiscuss.org/topic/specification-styles#content-15 is the most tenable
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  14. # [00:06] <annevk> Domenic_: why? That doesn't seem to match existing implementations
  15. # [00:06] <annevk> Domenic_: note that Chrome / V8 ran into the problem bz_moz described
  16. # [00:06] <Domenic_> annevk: what part of my message are you saying doesn't match existing implementations?
  17. # [00:06] <annevk> Domenic_: this is why promises are not shipping in Chrome 35
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  19. # [00:07] <Domenic_> yes, i remember
  20. # [00:08] <Domenic_> annevk: there are certain WebIDL functions/getters/setters that have exotic [[Call]] that depends on global state
  21. # [00:09] <Domenic_> annevk: this should be specified in their definition of [[Call]], not in ES's
  22. # [00:10] <annevk> Domenic_: no, this is valid for all new entry points
  23. # [00:10] <annevk> Domenic_: until you had an event loop, you did not have this problem, because you could not create new entry points
  24. # [00:12] <annevk> Domenic_: in particular, "async" callbacks need to use http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#jump-to-a-code-entry-point (this problem sort of exists in IDL too, it's not well defined yet)
  25. # [00:13] <Domenic_> annevk: but that's only relevant to certain WebIDL funcitons that depend on the script settings object
  26. # [00:14] <Domenic_> annevk: which is why the problem only shows up in CHrome when you use specific functions
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  28. # [00:15] <annevk> Domenic_: sure, some platform APIs use the settings object
  29. # [00:16] <annevk> Domenic_: but they do not have the right context to set it correctly
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  32. # [00:19] <annevk> Domenic_: anyway, you should probably discuss this with bz_moz
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  41. # [00:29] <annevk> Domenic_: http://esdiscuss.org/topic/realm-api-and-this-global
  42. # [00:29] <annevk> I wonder where that double newline came from
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  47. # [00:30] <Domenic_> annevk: it's a bug in the esdiscuss.org scripts, happens whenever there's angle brackets in the line -_-
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  104. # [02:34] <zewt> browsers very challenging to use when they don't show a busy pointer
  105. # [02:34] <zewt> click link, nothing happens, wonder
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  107. # [02:35] <zewt> TabAtkins: not sure if relevant but http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140412#l-231
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  109. # [02:37] <SamB> zewt: how does that work when there is no pointer to start with
  110. # [02:37] <SamB> I bet mobile users hate imagemaps even more than desktop users do ;-)
  111. # [02:37] <zewt> that's a problem for those platforms, if I'm on a platform with a mouse (or equivalent), it needs to show that it heard my click
  112. # [02:38] <zewt> (was looking for that link above, and getting irritated at clicking links on that page, and not being able to tell naturally whether it was network lag or just me fatfingering the touchpad)
  113. # [02:38] <SamB> hmm, don't they usually replace the favicon with a throbber too?
  114. # [02:39] <zewt> that's not an alternative--that's not where I'm looking when I click
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  126. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> .
  127. # [03:11] <paul_irish> .
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  129. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> heh
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  152. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> slightlyoff: can you let Takuya know I'm downstairs?
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  337. # [15:14] <jgraham> zcorpan: Did you see I reviewed your worker changes?
  338. # [15:15] <zcorpan> jgraham: nope. lost focus of critic
  339. # [15:15] <zcorpan> jgraham: thanks
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  342. # [15:27] <jgraham> zcorpan: For the record, I am still seeing some instability in /html/infrastructure/urls/resolving-urls/query-encoding/* and /websockets/unload-a-document/[005|003].html
  343. # [15:27] <zcorpan> jgraham: do you have more details for query-encoding?
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  346. # [15:34] <zewt> n.onshow = () => setTimeout(() => n.close(), 7000) <- this syntax is not even remotely okay
  347. # [15:34] <zewt> stop taking one of the syntactically cleaner languages and making it gross
  348. # [15:34] * Ms2ger gets off zewt's lawn
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  352. # [15:41] <jgraham> zcorpan: TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | /html/infrastructure/urls/resolving-urls/query-encoding/utf-16be.html | loading image <video poster> | expected PASS | assert_equals: expected substring %C3%A5 got undefined expected 2 but got 24
  353. # [15:41] <jgraham> TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | /html/infrastructure/urls/resolving-urls/query-encoding/utf-16le.html | loading image <video poster> | expected PASS | assert_equals: expected substring %C3%A5 got undefined expected 2 but got 24
  354. # [15:41] <jgraham> TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | /html/infrastructure/urls/resolving-urls/query-encoding/utf-8.html | loading image <video poster> | expected PASS | assert_equals: expected substring %C3%A5 got undefined expected 2 but got 24
  355. # [15:42] <jgraham> TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | /html/infrastructure/urls/resolving-urls/query-encoding/windows-1252.html | hyperlink auditing <area ping> | expected TIMEOUT | assert_unreached: Reached poll timeout Reached unreachable code
  356. # [15:42] <jgraham> TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | /html/infrastructure/urls/resolving-urls/query-encoding/utf-16be.html | CSS <link> (utf-8) #<id>::before { content:<url> } | expected PASS | assert_unreached: Reached poll timeout Reached unreachable code
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  358. # [15:43] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: webvtt in http://platform.html5.org should have the link updated
  359. # [15:43] <jgraham> That's from 3 runs, so it isn't really telling you much about low-frequency failures
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  361. # [15:45] <zcorpan> jgraham: for <area ping> do you think there's a race between the test timing out and the xhr interval timing out? (maybe it can set the result to TIMEOUT instead?)
  362. # [15:45] <zcorpan> jgraham: that test would reliably FAIL if gecko didn't lie about supporting it
  363. # [15:46] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah, that's a plausible race
  364. # [15:48] <jgraham> I guess it's *possible* to set the status to timeout, but it's not really supported
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  372. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: fixed
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  374. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> “consensus is the lack of leadership”
  375. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> from http://gigaom.com/2014/04/12/why-i-quit-writing-internet-standards/
  376. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> attributed to Margaret Thatcher
  377. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ↑
  378. # [15:56] <Ms2ger> Well
  379. # [15:57] <Ms2ger> "My seven years on the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), ..."
  380. # [15:57] <darobin> was that Maggie channelling Hixie? :)
  381. # [15:58] <yoav> Who's the best person to bug about fonts, their dimensions, "ex" and "ch" units and media queries?
  382. # [15:59] <Ms2ger> Let's just say TabAtkins
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  384. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> yoav: I agree with Ms2ger
  385. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> I smell a consensus emerging
  386. # [16:02] <yoav> consensus is good. Is there a use case as well?
  387. # [16:02] <SimonSapin> yoav: Does this help? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/mediaqueries/#units second paragraph
  388. # [16:03] <Ms2ger> yoav, no, consensus is the lack of leadership ;)
  389. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> yoav: a use case for TabAtkins?
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  391. # [16:04] <yoav> SimonSapin: I'm not sure I understand what does it mean for 'ex' and 'ch'. Is there a default value for them? (like the default font size is for 'em')
  392. # [16:05] <SimonSapin> well, let’s look at their definition
  393. # [16:05] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/#font-relative-lengths "ch unit: Equal to the used advance measure of the "0" (ZERO, U+0030) glyph found in the font used to render it."
  394. # [16:06] <SimonSapin> so you do that with the initial value of font-family, font-size, font-weight, etc
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  396. # [16:07] <SimonSapin> in other words, as in a document with no style (including UA) applied
  397. # [16:07] <TabAtkins> 'ex' has a default value if there's no font around - it's .5em.
  398. # [16:07] <TabAtkins> 'ch' doens't have a value without a font, and that's a bug.
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  401. # [16:08] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: I’m not the .5em thing applies to MQs
  402. # [16:08] <SimonSapin> I’m not convinced*
  403. # [16:08] <TabAtkins> Why wouldn't it? It's for when the font doesn't tell you an 'ex' size.
  404. # [16:09] <TabAtkins> Which I suspect would include when there's no font at all.
  405. # [16:09] <yoav> SimonSapin & TabAtkins: So, in the context of Media queries, I'd need to get the default browser font, and get the metrics from it?
  406. # [16:09] <SimonSapin> there is a font, the initial value of font-family
  407. # [16:09] <SimonSapin> yoav: I think so, but TabAtkins seems to disagree
  408. # [16:09] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Ugh, I guess so, but that's ugly and not very useful.
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  410. # [16:10] <SimonSapin> ex is ugly in any case, but meh
  411. # [16:10] <TabAtkins> ex is a useful unit; you hush your mouth.
  412. # [16:11] <yoav> Impl wise, if I have to take a shortcut around their calculation for MQs
  413. # [16:11] <SimonSapin> yoav: 1ex = 0.5em is valid per spec if you don’t want to bother doing all this
  414. # [16:11] <SimonSapin> "impractical"
  415. # [16:11] <yoav> What do I do as a default value for 'ch'?
  416. # [16:11] <TabAtkins> I'll bring it up in the call this morning and edit the spec.
  417. # [16:11] <TabAtkins> It'll probably be .5em as well.
  418. # [16:12] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: what do implementations do?
  419. # [16:12] <yoav> TabAtkins: Sounds great!
  420. # [16:12] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: No clue. Not sure who implements 'ch' yet.
  421. # [16:13] <SimonSapin> I’ll try and make a test case for ex in MQs
  422. # [16:13] <TabAtkins> Well, Blink implements it. Let's see...
  423. # [16:13] <yoav> TabAtkins: Blink has a zeroWidth() on the platform's fontMetrics
  424. # [16:14] <yoav> But calling it triggers some weird witchcraft, which makes it impossible for me the cache it just before starting a new thread and passing the value to that thread
  425. # [16:16] <yoav> Looks like this zeroWidth is set by looking at the actual glyphs
  426. # [16:17] <yoav> TabAtkins: I think I'd be able to get these values into where I need them at some point, but I'd love a reasonable default I can use to substitute them in the mean time
  427. # [16:18] <TabAtkins> .5em is definitely a reasonable default for both of them, even if it's just a temporary value that you'll fix later.
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  429. # [16:21] <SimonSapin> (min-width: 100ex) and (min-width: 50em) switch at different points on Gecko and Blink on my system http://result.dabblet.com/gist/10883309/fc063ef48196cedcbd457f1609de1e4041e9d5d9
  430. # [16:23] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: I’m fine with allowing 1ch = .5em "where it is impossible or impractical to determine" like ex, but not with "it must be .5em in MQs"
  431. # [16:24] <TabAtkins> I'm okay with that.
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  433. # [16:32] <TabAtkins> Based on initial testing, Blink uses the real value of 'ex' in MQs, but doesn't support 'ch' at all yet.
  434. # [16:36] <zcorpan> i find not supporting 'ch' at all bettre than 0.5em
  435. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: the Writing section of the URL spec doesn't specify what code points are valid in a schem
  436. # [16:36] <zcorpan> at least in the preloader context
  437. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> e
  438. # [16:38] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: At least in Chrome's default serif font, 1ch exactly equals .5em.
  439. # [16:39] <annevk> MikeSmith: "A scheme must be one ASCII alpha, followed by zero or more of ASCII alphanumeric, "+", "-", and ".". A scheme must be registered ...."
  440. # [16:41] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: yeah but what if it isn't and you have breakpoints where you care about 'ch' specifically, it would be bad if the preloader thinks one thing and later evaluations think another
  441. # [16:41] <TabAtkins> Right, if you have sufficient knowledge to do better, you should do better.
  442. # [16:42] <zcorpan> gotta go
  443. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> annevk: oh I missed that somehow
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  468. # [17:36] <JakeA> Is there anything aside from AppCache that can be used to determine if a cross-origin url looks like a 200?
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  470. # [17:39] <jgraham> JakeA: I have no idea about context, but do you mean "in the absence of CORS"?
  471. # [17:39] <JakeA> jgraham: yeah
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  473. # [17:39] <annevk> JakeA: aah, cross-origin...
  474. # [17:40] <jgraham> I'm not sure about arbitary urls but <img> and <script> could be used for resources with known behaviour
  475. # [17:40] <JakeA> Trying to work out what to do for serviceworker caches. Either follow AppCache and consider 4xx 5xx a failure, or consider that AppCache feature an error that shouldn't be repeated
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  477. # [17:41] <JakeA> jgraham: Good point, CSS too.
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  483. # [17:50] <tobie_> JakeA: I'll be working with Moz on their SW implementation. Essentially on the testing part + API feedback
  484. # [17:50] <JakeA> Oh cool!
  485. # [17:51] <tobie_> JakeA: we should sync on the testing front to make sure we don't dup the effort.
  486. # [17:52] <JakeA> tobie_: Agreed. I'm not at that stage yet (still sorting out the algorithms), don't suppose you're posting to a mailing list?
  487. # [17:53] <jsbell> tobie_: We're starting a collection of testharness.js tests for SW as we move into end-to-end testable territory.
  488. # [17:53] <tobie_> jsbell: are you writing those locally or directly against the W3C repo?
  489. # [17:54] <jgraham> tobie_, jsbell: \o/
  490. # [17:54] <jsbell> tobie_: Locally for now due to churn, but we'll move them to W3C eventually
  491. # [17:54] <jgraham> I am avaliable for all your test automation / infrastructure needs
  492. # [17:55] * Joins: jernoble|laptop (~jernoble@76.74.153.41)
  493. # [17:55] <jernoble|laptop> ericc: so i have a text track question for you.
  494. # [17:55] <jsbell> For now just in https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#chromium/src/third_party/WebKit/LayoutTests/http/tests/serviceworker/
  495. # [17:56] <tobie_> jgraham: awesome. SW lifecycle makes testing a tad challenging
  496. # [17:57] <tobie_> Will have to dig more before I can meaningfully ask for help.
  497. # [17:57] <jsbell> speaking of testharness.js - step_func doesn't propagate the return value through so you can't use it in a Promise chain. Should we fix?
  498. # [17:57] <jgraham> tobie_: Yep, I expect there could be some challenges
  499. # [17:57] <jgraham> jsbell: Fixes to make testharness.js better for promise APIs would be awesome
  500. # [17:58] <tobie_> jsbell: thanks for the link.
  501. # [17:58] <jgraham> I notice that zcorpan reviewed https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/1151 so I will fix that up. Might make writing some tests a little bit easier.
  502. # [17:58] <tobie_> JakeA: what's the preferred place to discuss Sw?
  503. # [17:58] <jsbell> jgraham: I'll see if it's as simple as I think, then make a PR
  504. # [18:00] <JakeA> tobie_: If it's an isuse, https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/. For general stuff, public-webapps I guess
  505. # [18:00] <tobie_> ty
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  540. # [19:24] <jsbell> JakeA: SW's Unregister rejects if the registration is not found. That makes it non-idempotent, and unlike e.g. Indexed DB. Is there a strong reason for that?
  541. # [19:27] <JakeA> jsbell: No strong opinion on that one. Means you won't be able to tell the difference between a successful unregistration & a typo in the scope, but consistency sounds better
  542. # [19:28] <jsbell> I'll file a bug.
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  544. # [19:29] <JakeA> Cheers, if there's no complaints I'll fix that tomorrow (going to get rid of algorithms.md and just add them to the spec)
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  546. # [19:29] <JakeA> (still can't spell algorithms without a spellcheck)
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  549. # [19:32] <jsbell> JakeA: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/233 - thanks.
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  582. # [20:05] <arunranga> annevk, do you still think that maintaning a check for Blob closure in the read operation for Blob objects is wrong? That is http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/#readOperationSection
  583. # [20:05] <JakeA> tobie_: So, this ServiceWorker thing is pretty new and big. Thinking about what we can do for user-support & want it to be a cross-browser effort
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  587. # [20:05] <JakeA> tobie_: Any objections to an IRC room, mailing list & StackOverflow attack?
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  589. # [20:06] <annevk> arunranga: what is it going to do? return the empty byte sequence?
  590. # [20:07] <arunranga> annevk, no; it should return failure along with a termination reason.
  591. # [20:07] <arunranga> annevk, I don’t think returning the emtpy byte sequence was the right choice.
  592. # [20:07] <arunranga> could you use that in other places, including parse/fetch and formdata?
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  595. # [20:09] <Domenic_> JakeA: mailing list vs. stackoverflow has historically been a tricky balance
  596. # [20:09] <arunranga> annevk, basically we’re fleshing out the model in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25302#c9
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  599. # [20:10] <annevk> arunranga: I don't understand that model, you have a function that's supposedly async, but sometimes synchronously returns?
  600. # [20:10] <annevk> arunranga: how does that make sense?
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  602. # [20:10] <JakeA> Domenic_: I know. Just been thinking about that. Maybe take mailing list threads and turn them into SO q&a, but maybe they consider that an abuse of SO.
  603. # [20:10] <arunranga> annevk, you proposed a wrapper for closure check within that function.
  604. # [20:10] <arunranga> annevk, unless you want closure checks within individual APIs, and not on the read operation
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  606. # [20:13] <arunranga> annevk, I guess the real question is where the closure check should happen.
  607. # [20:13] <annevk> arunranga: if you sometimes sync return, all callers will need to check anyway, so I'm not sure how you're helping by making it weird
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  611. # [20:18] <annevk> arunranga: you'll need to through the various scenarios, and figure out what the best model would be for the programmer
  612. # [20:18] <Domenic_> JakeA: as long as it's a well-defined Q&A then you can definitely do that. Answering your own questions is a good thing. People in #promises do that sometimes when we see a FAQ
  613. # [20:18] <annevk> arunranga: e.g. should closed blobs fail silently generally or fail hard
  614. # [20:19] <annevk> arunranga: once you've sorted that out you can figure out a set of concepts for APIs that take blobs to use
  615. # [20:20] <annevk> JakeA: btw, one thing I was wondering about is whether we could expose .status even for OpaqueResponse
  616. # [20:20] <annevk> JakeA: that way you'd know something is being redirected or some such
  617. # [20:20] <annevk> JakeA: and you could implement AppCache as polyfill?
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  619. # [20:22] <JakeA> annevk: The more info like that we can expose, the better. Ran that past any security people?
  620. # [20:23] <annevk> JakeA: given that it's already exposed...
  621. # [20:24] <annevk> JakeA: and the bit of the redirect we'd expose is not the thing that's vulnerable
  622. # [20:24] <JakeA> annevk: Wellllll, appcache gives you "it worked" or "it didn't work", where "it didn't work" could be 4xx, 5xx. But it doesn't tell you which
  623. # [20:25] <Domenic_> It might be useful to expose the strings "4xx" or "5xx" even
  624. # [20:25] <annevk> JakeA: fair, and I guess we rather not expose it at all
  625. # [20:25] <annevk> .status is a number
  626. # [20:25] <Domenic_> as if JavaScript cares ;)
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  628. # [20:26] <annevk> given that people do comparison with < and >, I do
  629. # [20:26] <Domenic_> still works with strings!
  630. # [20:27] <Domenic_> (well, not very well)
  631. # [20:27] <JakeA> Having cache.add reject if things are 4xx, 5xx, or cross-origin redirect is enough for most things
  632. # [20:28] <JakeA> An option-bag on new Cache() could be used to change those behaviours
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  635. # [20:29] <arunranga> annevk, there are actually standard synchronous checks for files on disk that won’t be accounted for in the read operation then.
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  637. # [20:29] <arunranga> annevk, this also includes snapshot state and other things.
  638. # [20:30] <arunranga> annevk, individual methods will have to do those. The idea of a ‘reusable’ read operation won’t be that useful then. Or, individual checks will be done for files on disk but not within the read operation.
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  642. # [20:31] <annevk> I have no idea what you're talking about arunranga|afk :/
  643. # [20:32] <annevk> arunranga|afk: the whole point is that read runs in the background, just like fetch... you'll need to elaborate
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  648. # [20:34] <arunranga|afk> annevk, a read operation should “fail hard” for a closed blob. That check is synchronous, but clearly can’t be done within the read operation itself. Also, a read operation should fail if the file has changed on disk.
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  650. # [20:35] <arunranga|afk> annevk, that’s what I mean. It’s clear these checks can’t be spec’d in a read operation, so APIs have to individually run these checks. I’m happy with that; I tried to see if we could put it in one place place
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  654. # [20:36] <annevk> arunranga|afk: I think you need to do some more archeology of how file read actually works
  655. # [20:36] <annevk> arunranga: the whole operation should be async
  656. # [20:36] <annevk> arunranga: presumably there's bits where it can fail, e.g. if the file was moved
  657. # [20:37] <annevk> arunranga: that could happen while reading as well
  658. # [20:37] <annevk> arunranga: so you'll have to explain what happens to the bytes that have already been read, and whether anything is signified at that point, etc.
  659. # [20:38] <Domenic_> sounds like streeeeeams
  660. # [20:39] <annevk> uhuh
  661. # [20:39] <annevk> sounds like Domenic_ found his hammer
  662. # [20:39] <Domenic_> hahaha
  663. # [20:39] <annevk> *new* hammer
  664. # [20:39] <Domenic_> so true
  665. # [20:39] <Domenic_> yeah i needed a new hammer
  666. # [20:39] <arunranga> annevk, sure, but if there’s a hard fail on closure, and that check is synchronous, it can’t be done within the read operation.
  667. # [20:39] <arunranga> And Fx currently proposes a snapshot state check that isn’t asynchronous.
  668. # [20:40] <arunranga> I think my archaeology is probably ok.
  669. # [20:40] <arunranga> I think your insistence on a read operation that’s reusable is good. I’m not sure how some checks can be included within it. That’s fine; FileReader will have to have its own API level checks.
  670. # [20:41] <arunranga> Or maybe a task can determine this fail.
  671. # [20:41] <arunranga> Domenic_ it does sound like streams
  672. # [20:42] <arunranga> (screams/streams)
  673. # [20:42] <Domenic_> arunranga: I am not sure streams can help, since this is largely an existing API/paradigm but ... maybe you could conceptualize how it would work if that existing API was built on top of a stream instance?
  674. # [20:43] <Domenic_> (I don't really understand the problem being talked about, but people started talking about sync vs. async I/O and bits that could fail and what happens to the bytes that have already been read, which are all questions we answered for streams)
  675. # [20:44] <annevk> Domenic_: the problem is basically reading from disk
  676. # [20:44] <annevk> Domenic_: how to define that
  677. # [20:45] <annevk> arunranga: it seems like nonsense that FileReader would have different failures from other APIs, that should all be part of the read concept
  678. # [20:45] <Domenic_> ... in a cross-platform way
  679. # [20:45] <annevk> uhuh
  680. # [20:45] <Domenic_> hammertime answer: with a ReadableStream!
  681. # [20:47] <annevk> Yeah, I don't really understand the difficulty, it seems like you keep consuming bytes, something may fail so you need to deal with that, and you need to present that somehow to your caller
  682. # [20:47] <arunranga> Tasks would be the right answer.
  683. # [20:48] <Domenic_> what is the API under discussion? I thought it was blobs and close()
  684. # [20:48] <arunranga> It is! It’s blobs, close() and closure checks within a read operation.
  685. # [20:48] <Domenic_> what's the API for a read operation
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  687. # [20:49] <annevk> FileReader, xhr.send(FormData / Blob)
  688. # [20:49] <Domenic_> isn't xhr.send a write?
  689. # [20:49] <arunranga> Domenic_, FileReader is a caller for a read operation
  690. # [20:49] <arunranga> So’s FormData
  691. # [20:49] <annevk> Domenic_: it's a pipe I guess
  692. # [20:50] <arunranga> read operation uses a Blob and reads it into memory asynchronously or synchronously
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  694. # [20:51] <Domenic_> i see
  695. # [20:51] <arunranga> annevk, I am probably not using tasks aggressively enough. I’ll rethink this a bit.
  696. # [20:51] <arunranga> annevk, thanks.
  697. # [20:51] <Domenic_> annevk is always on peoples' case about not using tasks enough ;)
  698. # [20:52] <Domenic_> thanks arunranga annevk for patiently explaining to me
  699. # [20:52] <arunranga> Domenic_, annevk is always on my case period.
  700. # [20:52] <Domenic_> aww
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  702. # [20:52] <annevk> hah
  703. # [20:55] <jsbell> JakeA: FYI, for the extended appcache errors I wedged in, status = 0 for any off-origin failure (4xx, 5xx, or network error)
  704. # [20:56] <jsbell> which at least garnered no objections
  705. # [20:56] <jsbell> which may say more about how much everyone loves appcache than the proposal...
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  709. # [21:03] <JakeA> jsbell: that's fair. All we need for SW is fulfill/reject and some vague ability to control what should be considered a failure
  710. # [21:03] <annevk> jsbell: URL objects should just be stringified
  711. # [21:03] <annevk> jsbell: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#url-apis-elsewhere re: IDBv2
  712. # [21:04] <jsbell> annevk: Not storing URLs; allowing URLs into DB. e.g. <img src="indexeddb:///music/album-covers/1ab2c3df">
  713. # [21:04] <annevk> ooh
  714. # [21:04] <annevk> confusing
  715. # [21:04] <jsbell> (totally made up scheme, don't quote it)
  716. # [21:05] <jsbell> Sorry. Mail was unclear. Wiki link is better: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/IndexedDatabaseFeatures
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  721. # [21:14] <arunranga> jsbell, annevk, scheme proliferation continues :) there’s also a filesystem: scheme to get into the filesystem.
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  723. # [21:15] <Domenic_> back in my day we just called that C:!!
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  725. # [21:17] <annevk> arunranga: jsbell: one filesystem: scheme might be good, if we need to support relative references and such
  726. # [21:18] <annevk> arunranga: the less URL parser hacks the better
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  729. # [21:19] <arunranga> annevk, you mean one scheme to rule both the indexeddb use case, and the filesystem use case?
  730. # [21:19] <annevk> yes
  731. # [21:19] <arunranga> annevk, it could work.
  732. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> Call it blobl:
  733. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> blob:*
  734. # [21:20] <Domenic_> fs:/dev/idb/...
  735. # [21:20] <annevk> Domenic_: don't you mean \\lolwindows\file
  736. # [21:21] <Domenic_> hehehe
  737. # [21:21] <Domenic_> all i'm sayin is that my surface pro 2 was way prettier than all those macbooks at the tag meeting
  738. # [21:21] <arunranga> Ms2ger, I wondered about reusing blob: even for filesystem URL (which by the way is in Chrome for the old filesystem API: http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/file/filesystem/).
  739. # [21:22] * Quits: dshwang (~dshwang@192.55.55.41) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  740. # [21:22] <arunranga> But I’m not sure now
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  742. # [21:23] <annevk> I think you want some kind of URL scheme that supports relative URLs
  743. # [21:23] <annevk> blob is not that
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  748. # [21:35] <arunranga> annevk, yep. I’ll bet naming is one of the few following hard problems
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  753. # [21:41] <zewt> using blob urls for blobs coming from a fs API makes sense, connecting them to fs paths wouldn't
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  763. # [21:51] <annevk> that depends on what you want to do
  764. # [21:52] <arunranga> zewt, the use case is the feature that’s already in Chrome.
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  767. # [21:56] <SamB_> zewt: but ... plan9!
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  773. # [22:14] * SamB_ is now known as SamB
  774. # [22:15] <SamB> Hmm, you guys know MS icon files can have more than one image in, right? Seems like that's not very well supported on the web ...
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  777. # [22:37] <zewt> nothing to do with use cases, blob urls have nothing whatsoever to do with paths
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  779. # [22:38] <zewt> urls for referring to paths inside a filesystem API need a different scheme
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  781. # [22:39] <SamB> zewt: I guess you missed the joke
  782. # [22:43] <zewt> arun was telling a joke?
  783. # [22:43] <SamB> no I was
  784. # [22:44] <SamB> hmm, okay, I follow you now
  785. # [22:45] <SamB> I take it there's a problem with file:/// ?
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  787. # [22:47] <Domenic_> paul_irish: pretty one-sided poll ;)
  788. # [22:47] <zewt> i haven't followed the fs stuff, but i assume it supports sandboxed filesystems
  789. # [22:47] <zewt> which wouldn't be file:
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  791. # [22:49] <annevk> Domenic_: https://plus.google.com/+PaulIrish/posts/QchucJRH7BX is great
  792. # [22:50] <Domenic_> :D
  793. # [22:51] <SamB> ah, yes, so I see looking at the html5rocks thing
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  795. # [22:55] * SamB ponders cross-origin file access ;-P
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  800. # [22:58] <SamB> hmm, how many OSes even provide for asynchronous directory creation ...
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  803. # [23:02] <SamB> and ... huh ... I'm not aware of any OSes that have handles for directory entries
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  806. # [23:09] <SamB> and, hmm, why am I thinking that the biggest risk connected with the ability to write malicious files to disk is that a script could write a file to disk for the express purpose of triggering a warning from an antivirus program?
  807. # [23:11] <SamB> or, um, it could cause searches in explorer on XP to pop up that annoying dialog box it pops up for multi-volume zips ...
  808. # [23:14] <SamB> lol @ <http://www.w3.org/respec/>: "sadly it cannot replace RFC 2119 with the more accurate RFC 6919".
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  812. # [23:16] <tiglionabbit> has anyone put forward a spec for supporting pen pressure and sub-pixel positioning?
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  815. # [23:16] <SamB> tiglionabbit: are you looking to write some kind of painting/drawing program?
  816. # [23:17] <tiglionabbit> that would be nice
  817. # [23:17] <tiglionabbit> currently the only way I know of to get at this information is through CelloSoft JTablet, which is a Java applet plugin
  818. # [23:18] <tiglionabbit> and nobody wants to use Java applets anymore
  819. # [23:18] <SamB> I don't imagine Android can run those?
  820. # [23:19] <tiglionabbit> chrome for mac can’t even run them
  821. # [23:19] <tiglionabbit> nor can chrome for chromebooks
  822. # [23:20] <SamB> huh
  823. # [23:20] <SamB> ... isn't there a standard API for JVM plugins?
  824. # [23:21] <tiglionabbit> sure, but chrome only distributes a 32-bit version, and java only distributes 64-bit
  825. # [23:21] <SamB> by which I mean "whatever Mozilla has been using"
  826. # [23:21] <SamB> ah!
  827. # [23:21] <SamB> right
  828. # [23:22] <tiglionabbit> anyway, has anyone made a spec for this?
  829. # [23:22] <SamB> that actually rings a bell for some reason; can't think why as I haven't even messed with any x86 macs that much
  830. # [23:23] <tiglionabbit> can I get involved with this somehow?
  831. # [23:24] <SamB> sorry, was talking about the mac java thing ...
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  835. # [23:27] <Domenic_> pointer events?
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  838. # [23:30] <annevk> tiglionabbit: you could start with hit testing
  839. # [23:30] <tiglionabbit> what’s that?
  840. # [23:30] <annevk> tiglionabbit: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0407.html
  841. # [23:31] <annevk> tiglionabbit: it's kind of critical for any kind of cursor input, except we've no idea how it works on the web
  842. # [23:31] <tiglionabbit> eh?
  843. # [23:32] <tiglionabbit> I’ve never noticed a problem with this
  844. # [23:32] <tiglionabbit> I’d be much more interested in getting tablet pen events
  845. # [23:33] <tiglionabbit> or, extending the existing events with the tablet pen properties of pressure and sub-pixel position
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  847. # [23:35] <Domenic_> i think pointer events have this
  848. # [23:35] <tiglionabbit> really?
  849. # [23:35] <Domenic_> pretty sure, but you should check the spec
  850. # [23:35] <SamB> annevk: really? no idea?
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  853. # [23:36] <tiglionabbit> oh I see
  854. # [23:37] <tiglionabbit> unfortunately only supported by IE11 apparently
  855. # [23:37] <tiglionabbit> well at least there’s hope
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  859. # [23:38] <Domenic_> my good deed for the day https://github.com/webcomponents/webcomponents.github.io/issues/96
  860. # [23:41] <annevk> SamB: see the email, I'm making it worse than it sounds, but there's no standard, which is pretty bad
  861. # [23:41] <annevk> SamB: CSS box tree not being defined in detail contributes to this of course
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  863. # [23:42] <annevk> SamB: maybe you want to start there if you are doing it from first principles...
  864. # [23:42] <Domenic_> I hear TabAtkins is on it ^_^
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  869. # [23:56] <smaug____> tiglionabbit: pointer events are being implemented in other engines
  870. # [23:56] <smaug____> well, I think not webkit, but elsewhere
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  874. # Session Close: Thu Apr 17 00:00:00 2014

The end :)