/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-09-08 / end

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  129. # [07:33] <zcorpan> "My same thoughts on "break the web" ... I think whoever put "use strict" in there would eventually never expect the `this` to be the global context." (on es-discuss)
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  156. # [09:07] <annevk> zcorpan: that guy routinely suggests breaking the web
  157. # [09:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: Web Platform Test integration with Gecko testing seems awesome. Thank you!
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  161. # [09:18] <annevk> I wonder what simon.html5.org hosts that is so popular. 20GiB of bandwidth. philip.html5.org reaches 80GiB
  162. # [09:18] <annevk> html5.org itself meanwhile is at 23
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  165. # [09:20] <annevk> dom.spec.whatwg.org is at 4
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  194. # [10:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: Great!
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  209. # [11:11] <Domenic> zcorpan: yes, every message from that poster makes me question my subscription :(
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  213. # [11:22] <annevk> krijnhoetmer: can haz /irc-logs in TLS?
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  224. # [11:38] <annevk> mounir: did you just go back to my original strawman for sensor API design?
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  226. # [11:38] <annevk> mounir: that thread went full circle fast
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  228. # [11:39] <jgraham> annevk: It seems my blog.whatwg.org account is still jgraham@opera.com. Can you fix it (or vend me a new account?) It seems like a good time to do a testing status update. For all 6 readers of the whatwg blog.
  229. # [11:39] <Domenic> it'd be cool to have more posts on the blog
  230. # [11:39] * Joins: sarir (~sari@p50995cae.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  231. # [11:39] <annevk> jgraham: I'll have a look
  232. # [11:41] <mounir> annevk: not really
  233. # [11:41] <mounir> annevk: I just pointed an alternative
  234. # [11:42] <mounir> annevk: I thought the Rick W. was championing your proposal actually
  235. # [11:42] <annevk> he mocked it on Twitter
  236. # [11:42] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-44-207.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  237. # [11:42] <mounir> annevk: I think your proposal or Tim's are sensitive
  238. # [11:42] <jgraham> Domenic: Yeah, I guess we just need to wait until blogging becomes retro-cool
  239. # [11:42] <mounir> annevk: he did a mock of the proposal in 140 characters?
  240. # [11:43] <annevk> mounir: https://twitter.com/rwaldron/status/504355208315830272
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  243. # [11:44] <mounir> annevk: oh, I thought that he mocked the fact that I pointed to the same thing as an alternative
  244. # [11:45] <mounir> annevk: note that without the mocking part I agree with him - as pointed in my email -
  245. # [11:45] <annevk> I'm no longer following
  246. # [11:45] <mounir> annevk: it's probably a bit painful to only expose an async api
  247. # [11:45] <annevk> But I'm not sure I need to
  248. # [11:45] <annevk> Oh man, WordPress updates...
  249. # [11:45] <mounir> annevk: did you look at Tim's proposal?
  250. # [11:46] <annevk> Yeah, but it didn't seem so nice
  251. # [11:46] <annevk> It has a factory design
  252. # [11:46] <mounir> how so?
  253. # [11:46] <annevk> getDeviceOrientationSensor()
  254. # [11:47] <mounir> annevk: it's not really a factory design if you return a very specific type out of it ;)
  255. # [11:48] <mounir> annevk: I hear your concern but it's only cosmetic to me
  256. # [11:48] <annevk> That's what C++ API designers say about JavaScript APIs too :-P
  257. # [11:49] <annevk> jgraham: hoppipolla?
  258. # [11:50] <annevk> jgraham: I went with that
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  260. # [11:57] <darobin> wow, that became a meme fast!
  261. # [11:59] <mounir> darobin: a meme feast?
  262. # [11:59] <darobin> heh
  263. # [11:59] <darobin> there clearly is someone sitting on this channel and bored at a meeting — I suspect a CSS meeting :)
  264. # [12:00] <mounir> it can't be sgalineau
  265. # [12:00] <darobin> it can't be either sgalineau nor hober
  266. # [12:01] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah
  267. # [12:01] * hober whistles tunelessly
  268. # [12:02] <annevk> heh
  269. # [12:03] <hober> hello from sophia antipolis!
  270. # [12:03] <TabAtkins> hober: Your meme unfairly credits that line to annevk, when it was mounir.
  271. # [12:03] <annevk> TabAtkins: you're not reading it correctly
  272. # [12:04] <mounir> TabAtkins: I think anne is credit
  273. # [12:04] <mounir> ... is credited what he should be credited
  274. # [12:04] <TabAtkins> annevk: Hm, I guess so. It's not super-clear, but I get it when I read it sufficiently closely.
  275. # [12:09] <darobin> you can't just read w3cmemes quickly like that TabAtkins
  276. # [12:09] <darobin> it requires exegesis
  277. # [12:10] <TabAtkins> I REFUSE TO EXPEND CRITICAL THOUGHT ON MEMES
  278. # [12:10] <Domenic> this article on google's sha-1 deprecation is really good https://konklone.com/post/why-google-is-hurrying-the-web-to-kill-sha-1
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  281. # [12:20] <Philip`> annevk: 80GB over what time period?
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  285. # [12:24] <eto> hello
  286. # [12:24] <annevk> Philip`: monthly
  287. # [12:25] <annevk> Philip`: it's not really a big deal btw, was mostly surprised
  288. # [12:25] <Philip`> annevk: Seems a lot higher than I would expect too
  289. # [12:25] <Philip`> Maybe someone found the pirated movies I stored on that domain
  290. # [12:30] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@212.42.170.121)
  291. # [12:35] <mathiasbynens> for simon.html5.org it’s probably due to people ironically hotlinking http://simon.html5.org/valid-html5.png
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  306. # [13:37] <hsivonen> is there a newbie guide for submitting html5lib-tests pull requests the Right Way?
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  309. # [13:39] <annevk> jgraham: ^^
  310. # [13:39] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, I assume the same process as web-platform-tests
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  313. # [13:41] <jgraham> Yeah, same process, but to html5lib-tests rather than web-platform-tests mostly
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  316. # [13:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: so 1) fork repo on github, 2) pull your own fork, 3) create a branch in the local repo, 4) commit changes to branch, 5) ???
  317. # [13:42] <aleray> hi, is this valid html? http://jsfiddle.net/pef48j5e/
  318. # [13:43] <jgraham> hsivonen: 5) Press the "create pull request" button in the GitHub UI
  319. # [13:43] <aleray> I want some content to be "centered and sized", and some other content to take the full width of the viewport
  320. # [13:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: OK. Should there be squashing before that?
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  322. # [13:44] <jgraham> hsivonen: Starting with a single commit is better, unless it's clearly logically seperate commits. Please don't squash after the initial submission though
  323. # [13:44] <jgraham> (it upsets the code review tool)
  324. # [13:44] <hsivonen> my understanding of the lifetime of feature branches in the PR-based workflow is still hazy
  325. # [13:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok. that differs from the Gaia guideline
  326. # [13:45] <jgraham> hsivonen: If you don't want to fork, you are welcome to have access to the main repo to push your branch
  327. # [13:45] <jgraham> This is better in several ways (notably that other people can more easilly push commits to fix review issues)
  328. # [13:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks. that kind of thing is why I haven't learned the PR-based workflow :-)
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  331. # [13:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: It's still a PR-based workflow
  332. # [13:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh
  333. # [13:47] <jgraham> You just push the branch to the main repo rather than to your fork
  334. # [13:47] <hsivonen> so far, I've had too much write access to learn how the real workflow works
  335. # [13:47] <jgraham> (under the covers it's actually even more similar than you would think given the UI)
  336. # [13:48] <hsivonen> jgraham: will the branch stay around forever or does it get flattened out somehow after the PR has been accepted?
  337. # [13:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: will future generations be able to laugh at my intermediate steps?
  338. # [13:49] <jgraham> hsivonen: You can rebase+squash once the review is accepted and delete the review branch
  339. # [13:50] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok.
  340. # [13:50] * hsivonen still doesn't grok how "everyone has a copy of all data" and "you can delete a branch" interact
  341. # [13:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: Well the branch is only a pointer to the commits. So you can delete the pointer without deleting the commits. Then after some time (90 days by default) any commits that aren't reachable from a pointer are discarded. Of course if someone else has cloned the repo, they might still have a pointer to your commits locally and they could push those commits back upstream. So you can't guarantee that they have been expunged forevermore, but it's no
  342. # [13:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: you got cut off at "but it's no"
  343. # [13:54] <smaug____> oh, git exposes gc behavior. boo
  344. # [13:55] <jgraham> "but it's not a scenario that happens much in practice becase there usually isn't any reason to push old commits that have already been merged."
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  346. # [13:57] <jgraham> smaug____: Well that's a feature I think. The mercurial equivalent is either strip files or not actually deleting commits but marking them as hidden
  347. # [13:58] <smaug____> I would expect gc-able stuff to not show up anywhere, certainly not in clones
  348. # [13:58] <smaug____> so gc could run during cloning
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  350. # [14:01] <jgraham> I don't know if gc-able stuff does show up in clones, actually. I was thinking of the situation where someone had already cloned and the commits were de-referenced upstream.
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  356. # [14:16] <hsivonen> does anyone want to bet whether Blink gets svg.innerHTML = "<frameset>" right?
  357. # [14:16] <hsivonen> does anyone want to guess if the spec gets it right?
  358. # [14:16] <hsivonen> or what the spec says about it
  359. # [14:16] * hsivonen hasn't read the spec on that point, yet
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  367. # [14:23] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Dunno what the spec says, but Blink just creates an <svg|frameset> element.
  368. # [14:23] * Joins: howitdo (~howitdo@unaffiliated/howitdo)
  369. # [14:24] <Domenic> hsivonen: out of curiousity why are you looking into this stuff? For Servo? Ran into similar stuff on jsdom recently.
  370. # [14:25] <hsivonen> Domenic: for Gecko.
  371. # [14:26] <Domenic> hsivonen: kk. is there a bug I can watch?
  372. # [14:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: I accepted your invitation. Thanks
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  374. # [14:26] <hsivonen> Domenic: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=886390
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  376. # [14:27] * TabAtkins fantasai, your latest changes to default.css give all the links a double underline
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  397. # [15:14] <ondras> so, web components/shadow dom
  398. # [15:14] <ondras> is this channel suitable or is there a better one.
  399. # [15:14] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  400. # [15:14] <jgraham> It depends on what you want to talk about, I guess
  401. # [15:14] <ondras> I am having an issue with createdCallback not called when the custom element in question is created inside a shadow root of another element
  402. # [15:17] <ondras> but this is for the first time I am digging deeper into this stuff, so the chance is the problem is somewhere between the chair and the monitor.
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  404. # [15:18] <TabAtkins> ondras: Maybe ask in #polymer?
  405. # [15:18] <ondras> TabAtkins: well I would like to have this working without polymer at first, adding polyfills later
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  407. # [15:24] <TabAtkins> ondras: I just meant that people in that room know quite a bit more about this specific topic.
  408. # [15:24] <TabAtkins> (I also suspect it's PEBCAK, but I can't help you any further than that.)
  409. # [15:25] <ondras> .)
  410. # [15:25] <ondras> okay, thanks, will try.
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  412. # [15:28] <TabAtkins> Lolwut http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/124
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  414. # [15:29] <ondras> thou shalt be blacklistored.
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  426. # [16:08] <annevk> TabAtkins: RaA?
  427. # [16:09] <annevk> jgraham: did it work out with the blog?
  428. # [16:09] <TabAtkins> Reductio ad absurdum
  429. # [16:09] <annevk> I see
  430. # [16:10] <annevk> The situation seems fairly logical to me, and the person calling FUD is actually doing that himself
  431. # [16:10] <annevk> film at 11?
  432. # [16:11] <darobin> annevk: huh?
  433. # [16:12] <zcorpan> foolip: interested in investigating the compat impact of changing (min-|max-)?device-(width|height) media features so they are equivalent to width/height?
  434. # [16:13] <Domenic> ^ lol, the web
  435. # [16:13] <annevk> Didn't the "mobile web" ruin that?
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  437. # [16:14] <jgraham> annevk: Uh, I got distracted by actual bugs. And an inability to write through lack of practice. But I managed to reset my password, so yeah
  438. # [16:15] <annevk> jgraham: sounds good
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  440. # [16:17] <jgraham> annevk: Which situation?
  441. # [16:17] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure that any situation that's logical is offtopic, so we need to correct this as fast as possible
  442. # [16:18] <annevk> jgraham: heh
  443. # [16:18] <annevk> jgraham: https://twitter.com/domenic/status/508964136366391297
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  445. # [16:22] <hober> Domenic: you keep referring to something the Director said, but i missed the relevant actual quote from him.
  446. # [16:23] <Domenic> hober: Art was referencing a conversation which I presume he did not take notes during.
  447. # [16:23] <annevk> hober: "However, based on my conversations with Consortium staff last week, the Director will NOT permit a Proposed Recommendation to include a normative reference to a WHATWG spec." from http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/124
  448. # [16:23] <hober> annevk: ahh, thanks. so not only is there not a quote from the director, the conversation didn't even include him?
  449. # [16:24] <annevk> hober: depending on what the actual the Director said, a conversation with the Director does not have to include the actual the Director
  450. # [16:25] <hober> annevk: :)
  451. # [16:25] <annevk> hober: so I've no idea :-)
  452. # [16:25] <hober> i guess what i'm saying is that https://twitter.com/domenic/status/508977165028057088 is overstating the case
  453. # [16:26] <jgraham> Can we get a journalist to phone TimBL and get a quote
  454. # [16:27] <jgraham> Everyone knows that the best medium for relationship counselling is through the media
  455. # [16:35] <darobin> jgraham++
  456. # [16:35] <darobin> that is, indeed, not an actual quote from the Director
  457. # [16:36] <darobin> who, as far as I know, was not on the call being referred to
  458. # [16:36] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  459. # [16:36] <darobin> and therefore was unable to make quotes either way, irrespective of his opinion
  460. # [16:37] <darobin> but hey, it would be ridiculous to let facts get in the way of some good old fashioned standards drama
  461. # [16:38] <hober> s/standards drama/game of telephone/
  462. # [16:39] <jgraham> More worrying, tracker seems to think that reverse chronological order is a sensible way to sort email
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  474. # [17:00] <annevk> Is TLS the new URI or ECMAScript, or actually a term we should favor over SSL?
  475. # [17:01] <sgalineau> darobin: well, the most recent game of standards drama worked out so well, why not have another round?
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  480. # [17:09] <annevk> sgalineau: darobin will solve it soon by introducing something that is neither W3C nor WHATWG
  481. # [17:10] <hober> ... and combines the problems of both
  482. # [17:10] <sgalineau> annevk: a third group could be the only way to make WHATWG and W3C agree on something "OMG NO"
  483. # [17:10] * darobin soldiers on!
  484. # [17:10] * sgalineau cue 'Object to this' meme
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  489. # [17:13] <annevk> sgalineau: contrasted with the IETF, at least we can agree on Unicode and text/html (these days)
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  491. # [17:14] <sgalineau> annevk: whoa. WHATWG agrees on *two* things with a standards body? Jesus. You guys are practically selling out.
  492. # [17:14] <annevk> sgalineau: did you hear we're publishing snapshots? http://blog.whatwg.org/make-patent-commitments
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  494. # [17:15] <sgalineau> annevk: you can't fool me. you are the Tools Of Evil.
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  503. # [17:23] <Domenic> TabAtkins: you may enjoy https://github.com/domenic/ecmarkdown. For progress see https://github.com/domenic/ecmarkdown/tree/master/test/cases
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  511. # [17:31] <TabAtkins> Domenic: You should match CMD's list handling.
  512. # [17:31] <Domenic> TabAtkins: this isn't meant to be a markdown dialect; much more restrictive.
  513. # [17:31] <Domenic> for algorithms only
  514. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> Right, I know, it's a subset and redefinition.
  515. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> But insofar as you're copying MD, you should copy CMD.
  516. # [17:32] <Domenic> Part of the goal is uniformity. We don't want some parts of the spec using 0., 0., 0. and others using 1., 1., 1. and others using 1., 2., 3.
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  519. # [17:37] <TabAtkins> ???
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  521. # [17:38] <Domenic> This is for ECMAScript which will have many contributors
  522. # [17:39] <TabAtkins> What I'm talking about is the indentation.
  523. # [17:40] <Domenic> Oh!
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  525. # [17:40] <Domenic> I haven't read that, so perhaps I will.
  526. # [17:41] <annevk> mathiasbynens: seen a good DNSSEC guide? TransIP seems to offer it, but I've no idea how to configure it
  527. # [17:41] <mathiasbynens> annevk: nope
  528. # [17:41] <annevk> Also, it's a bit unclear to me what DNSSEC actually offers
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  533. # [17:44] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Each list-item establishes a required indentation by the number of characters before it starts.
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  536. # [17:45] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Name_System_Security_Extensions seems fairly clear as to what it offers...
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  543. # [17:50] <jgraham> These things annoy me: emails sent as both HTML and plain text where the plain text is missing substantial information compared to the HTML
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  551. # [17:56] <Hixie_> annevk: did you point tantek to that?
  552. # [17:56] <annevk> Hixie_: context?
  553. # [17:57] <Hixie_> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/124
  554. # [17:57] <Hixie_> and yeah, if anyone ever wondered what the w3c's position on the whatwg was, the phrase "explicitly blacklist WHATWG" should pretty much put it to rest
  555. # [17:57] <annevk> I saw on Twitter the guy just lost his sandwhich, not sure I want to bring more bad news
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  557. # [17:58] <Hixie_> lol
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  559. # [17:59] <Hixie_> wait, where are you seeing that he lost his sandwich!
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  561. # [17:59] <annevk> hober: http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=ssl&word2=tls
  562. # [18:00] <annevk> Hixie_: https://twitter.com/adactio/status/508982320553283584
  563. # [18:00] <Hixie_> lol
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  566. # [18:01] <jgraham> Hixie_: To be fair the phrase "explicitly blacklist WHATWG specs" came from Art; he pointed out that he disagreed with it as policy but believed it to be W3C's position, and further discussion suggested that it was not, in fact, W3C
  567. # [18:01] <Domenic> annevk: interesting, i did not expect that tls.
  568. # [18:01] <jgraham> 's position (or hasn't yet been confirmed as such)
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  570. # [18:02] <jgraham> So, all in all, it seems like a terrible way of infering what W3C's actual position is
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  572. # [18:03] <Domenic> annevk: lots of non-web related results on first page. "Top law schools" "times literary supplement" other orgs with that acronym.
  573. # [18:03] <Hixie_> jgraham: yeah, their official position is "I think it would be inappropriate for the Staff to publicly speculate"
  574. # [18:03] <Domenic> annevk: SSL has a couple of those too though
  575. # [18:03] <jgraham> Right. I agree "we aren't going to tell you our position" is a pretty terrible position to take
  576. # [18:04] <jgraham> Hopefully it's shortlived
  577. # [18:04] <Hixie_> it's already not short-lived :-)
  578. # [18:05] <jgraham> compared to that email
  579. # [18:06] <Hixie_> btw i was earlier going to say that we should adopt a policy of not referencing stale specs
  580. # [18:06] <Hixie_> but then i realised we already have that policy
  581. # [18:06] <Hixie_> since we just reference ed drafts
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  587. # [18:09] <annevk> Domenic: URI <> URL; Atom <> RSS are much more clearcut
  588. # [18:10] <Hixie_> Domenic, annevk: what's the setup you want on streams.spec.whatwg.org
  589. # [18:10] <annevk> Hixie_: sounds like Domenic wants an SSH account
  590. # [18:10] <Hixie_> basically there's two options. Domenic has an ssh account, annevk has an ssh account. :-)
  591. # [18:10] <Hixie_> k
  592. # [18:11] <Domenic> ^ sounds good
  593. # [18:11] <Hixie_> username?
  594. # [18:11] <Domenic> domenic
  595. # [18:12] <Hixie_> you don't have any weird preferences for shell, do you
  596. # [18:12] <Hixie_> bash is ok?
  597. # [18:12] <Domenic> bash is superb
  598. # [18:12] <Hixie_> hm, looks like domenic is taken
  599. # [18:12] <Hixie_> (sorry, shared host)
  600. # [18:12] <Domenic> aw
  601. # [18:12] <Domenic> I think ddenicola will be easiest to remember
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  603. # [18:13] <Domenic> (but nobody spells my name with an "e"... craziness!)
  604. # [18:13] <Hixie_> k... now the interesting part
  605. # [18:13] <Hixie_> how do i get this password to you with a theoretically secure chain of trust
  606. # [18:13] <Domenic> i was wondering that myself
  607. # [18:14] <jgraham> Write it down and go visit him?
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  609. # [18:14] <Hixie_> you on hangouts? that's encrypted end-to-end, and i trust google not to steal these credentials since i already trust them not to use my e-mail to break into my dreamhost host
  610. # [18:14] <Hixie_> (and also, i am part of google.)
  611. # [18:16] <Domenic> Hangouts should work yeah
  612. # [18:16] <Hixie_> send one to ian.hickson@gmail.com
  613. # [18:16] <Hixie_> annevk: while i'm at the dreamhost panel, what's out story with this tls nonsense
  614. # [18:17] <annevk> Hixie_: we have two options, either you get StartSSL verified, or I you hand over StartSSL WHATWG business to me somehow as I'll be StartSSL verified (class 2) within 10 business days
  615. # [18:17] <Hixie_> how do i do that second one?
  616. # [18:18] <Domenic> For future reference https://www.npmjs.org/package/cipherhub seems like a feasible solution for key exchange
  617. # [18:18] <annevk> Hixie_: we need to be StartSSL class 2 for whatwg.org as we have a complex subdomain setup
  618. # [18:18] <annevk> Hixie_: I guess I need to ask them
  619. # [18:19] <annevk> Hixie_: now that I know you're okay with that, I'll look into it
  620. # [18:20] <Hixie_> i'm definitely ok with offloading as much work as possible :-)
  621. # [18:20] <Hixie_> Domenic: ok, your account is set up on streams.spec.whatwg.org
  622. # [18:21] <Hixie_> might take a few minute for dns to propagate
  623. # [18:21] <Hixie_> let me know when to update the spec index
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  628. # [18:21] <Domenic> Hixie_: awesome, thanks. And yeah, no need to update the spec index for a couple weeks probably; I just want to kill the URL I am currently using so nobody links to it.
  629. # [18:22] <Hixie_> i wonder how i do the wildcard stuff on dreamhost
  630. # [18:22] <Hixie_> do i have to manually add the same cert to each of these damn subdomians?
  631. # [18:22] <Hixie_> subdomains
  632. # [18:23] <annevk> Yeah you might have to, apparently if you have direct access to the server it's much more convenient
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  634. # [18:23] <Hixie_> i technically do have root but i think the panel happily nukes my settings every now and then
  635. # [18:23] <mathiasbynens> annevk, Hixie_: btw iirc even class 2 only allows *.domain.ext, not *.*.domain.ext
  636. # [18:24] <mathiasbynens> re: *.spec.whatwg.org
  637. # [18:24] <annevk> mathiasbynens: we don't need *.*, just *.spec.whatwg.org
  638. # [18:24] <Hixie_> i guess we'd need *.spec.whatwg.org and *.whatwg.org
  639. # [18:24] <annevk> right
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  641. # [18:24] <mathiasbynens> and whatwg.org
  642. # [18:24] <Hixie_> that we actually have already
  643. # [18:25] <mathiasbynens> Hixie_: did you see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140907#l-257?
  644. # [18:25] <Hixie_> yeah that's why we're doing this
  645. # [18:25] <Hixie_> amongst other reasons
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  647. # [18:26] <mathiasbynens> Hixie_: the mixed content issues can be fixed already, though
  648. # [18:26] <Domenic> Yeah I think just change the <base> to // instead of http://?
  649. # [18:27] <mathiasbynens> for example, yeah
  650. # [18:27] * Hixie_ discovers that dreamhost actually does support splitting one domain across multiple users after all
  651. # [18:27] <mathiasbynens> for that particular page
  652. # [18:27] <Hixie_> oh, i see
  653. # [18:27] <Hixie_> wait, what does that page reference that's explicitly by http://?
  654. # [18:27] <Domenic> the <base> tag
  655. # [18:27] <mathiasbynens> <base href="http://whatwg.org/specs/"> <!-- because it's also used on http://spec.whatwg.org/ -->
  656. # [18:27] <Domenic> fun fact, browsers let you type //example.com into the URL bar
  657. # [18:28] <Hixie_> ohh
  658. # [18:28] <Hixie_> right
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  660. # [18:29] <Hixie_> actually whatwg.org is just a redirect to www.whatwg.org
  661. # [18:29] * pdr is now known as pdr|commute
  662. # [18:29] <Hixie_> so i'm not sure we can secure that one technically (given how dreamhost does things)
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  664. # [18:29] <Hixie_> anyway. spec list fixed.
  665. # [18:29] <Domenic> boooo no www
  666. # [18:29] <mathiasbynens> isn’t whatwg no-www friendly?
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  668. # [18:29] <mathiasbynens> Hixie_: for other documents, it’s probably easiest to grep for 'http://whatwg.org' and go from there
  669. # [18:29] <Hixie_> it's www.whatwg.org because it's the domain for the world wide web's specs!
  670. # [18:30] <Hixie_> not because www. is our web server
  671. # [18:30] <jgraham> No, then it would be www.spec.whatwg.org Or sepc.www.whatwg.org
  672. # [18:30] <jgraham> *spec
  673. # [18:31] <Hixie_> url.spec.www.whatwg.org would have been too long
  674. # [18:31] <Hixie_> and dreamhost won't let us host www.spec.whatwg.org separate from spec.whatwg.org
  675. # [18:31] <jgraham> so which non www specs are you planning on writing there?
  676. # [18:31] <Hixie_> i tried to set that up for hixie.ch vs www.hixie.ch literally over a decade ago
  677. # [18:31] <Hixie_> and they wouldn't have any of it
  678. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> www.spec.whatwg.org is the HTML spec, right?
  679. # [18:32] <jgraham> (it seems like any non-www specs are also non-*w*hatwg-specs)
  680. # [18:32] <Hixie_> should be. sadly it's html.spec.whatwg.org
  681. # [18:32] <Hixie_> jgraham: the existence of a label doesn't imply the existence of other labels :-)
  682. # [18:33] <jgraham> Hixie_: No, but that situation does suggest redundancy :)
  683. # [18:34] <Hixie_> possibly
  684. # [18:34] <Domenic> lazyirc: i assume a bunch of tests exist in web-platform-tests for document.write?
  685. # [18:34] <jgraham> Domenic: "a bunch"
  686. # [18:34] <Hixie_> but redundancy in web hosting is good, it makes us more reliable! :-P
  687. # [18:34] <Domenic> jgraham: enough that we feel good about it, as opposed to most of the coverage in WPT?
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  689. # [18:35] <Domenic> jgraham: I feel like document.write is such a hairy area but also a pretty interoperable one that someone must have tested it a lot....
  690. # [18:35] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  691. # [18:35] <jgraham> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/13bff083fba249ed260966bca65319b1b35d3f34/html/dom/dynamic-markup-insertion
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  693. # [18:36] <Hixie_> document.write is less interoperable than you might imagine
  694. # [18:36] <Domenic> jgraham: that looks very nice, thanks :D
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  699. # [18:37] <caitp> it's interoperable enough for a react.js slide deck which will only ever be opened on chromium
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  701. # [18:38] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: re https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26744
  702. # [18:38] <mathiasbynens> Hixie_: fwiw there are some hardcoded `http://whatwg.org`s in https://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/*.js
  703. # [18:38] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: the text you're talking about is three paragraphs from a heading that introduces the disabled attribute
  704. # [18:38] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: and the first list item there explicitly lists the elements
  705. # [18:38] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: what more can i do?
  706. # [18:38] * Ms2ger looks
  707. # [18:39] <jgraham> caitp: So you're saying it's interoperable enough that Blink behaviour never regresses? I wonder if you have tested that when they actually made changes to the document.write code :p
  708. # [18:39] <caitp> well, being a slide deck, it stops mattering after a few weeks :>
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  710. # [18:40] <Ms2ger> Oh, hm
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  712. # [18:40] <Hixie_> annevk: the text you cite in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25099#c33 is exactly what i want to write, but that text doesn't work with the way you've defined events.
  713. # [18:40] <Hixie_> annevk: (because it doesn't invoke the constructor, which would be a very weird thing to do in prose)
  714. # [18:40] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, okay, wfm
  715. # [18:41] <caitp> the joke is that it's interoperable enough to be used in situations where you don't care about interoperability
  716. # [18:41] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: cool
  717. # [18:41] * Ms2ger was going to complain at Hixie_ about something, but can't remember what
  718. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> You get off this time!
  719. # [18:42] <annevk> Hixie_: yeah fair, I wonder how we resolve the situation of not defining the global object for many objects
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  721. # [18:43] <Hixie_> annevk: ?
  722. # [18:43] <Hixie_> annevk: how do you mean?
  723. # [18:43] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Come on? You can't think of anything to complain to Hixie_ about? localStorage? The ugly WHATWG green? His belief that cats make good pets?
  724. # [18:43] <Hixie_> cats make terrible pets
  725. # [18:43] <Hixie_> they make great housemates though
  726. # [18:43] <annevk> Hixie_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24652
  727. # [18:43] <Ms2ger> WHATWG green isn't too bad
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  729. # [18:44] * jgraham finds something to complain at Ms2ger about
  730. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> But I was thinking something he didn't already know
  731. # [18:44] * mathiasbynens randomly blames Ms2ger for the low-res WHATWG favicon.ico
  732. # [18:44] <Hixie_> annevk: i don't understand the relevance of that to the event thing
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  735. # [18:45] <annevk> Hixie_: if we define things in terms of a constructor that we invoke, there'd be an associated realm
  736. # [18:45] <Hixie_> annevk: why do we care about associated realms here
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  739. # [18:45] <annevk> because otherwise it's unclear where the prototype comes from
  740. # [18:45] <Hixie_> annevk: we create an object. creating an object is something we do all over the place in the specs.
  741. # [18:45] <annevk> yeah, this is a pretty big problem
  742. # [18:46] <Hixie_> annevk: well we're not going to create constructors for everything we create objects for
  743. # [18:46] <Hixie_> annevk: so whatever our solution is, it has nothing to do with constructors
  744. # [18:46] <Hixie_> annevk: so again, i don't see how this affects the events issue
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  746. # [18:46] <annevk> well for events constructors are nice because of the dictionary design
  747. # [18:47] <annevk> as spec authors have difficulty getting the prose right
  748. # [18:47] <annevk> IDL is much easier
  749. # [18:47] <Hixie_> if spec authors have problems writing prose, this is going to be the least of their issues
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  751. # [18:52] <annevk> Is this issue high priority for you? I'd prefer to wait until IDL is revamped. Hopefully then we have a better idea of how to define objects. Provided real effort is put into that
  752. # [18:53] <Hixie_> given that i think that the resolution is for me to do nothing and you to revert the changes to DOM, no, not particularly urgent. :-)
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  759. # [18:56] <Hixie_> annevk: while i have you here, see my response on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26103#c10
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  857. # [21:52] <jwalden> peoples! can someone explain to me why the searchParams serialization algorithm detailed for URLSearchParams would be totally unaware of anything but ASCII? seems like that nonsense just shouldn't be, for new APIs
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  860. # [21:58] <jsbell> jwalden: You mean http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-urlencoded-serializer ?
  861. # [21:58] <jwalden> jsbell: yes, that and http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-urlencoded-byte-serializer
  862. # [22:01] <okj579> that algorithm can use any encoding but defaults to utf8
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  869. # [22:08] <jwalden> oh, am I misreading? step 1 converts Unicode stuffs into byte arrays, then serialization individually converts each byte into +/percent-encoding/that code point?
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  880. # [22:12] <okj579> yeah, i think so
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  886. # [22:18] <arunranga> hi Domenic! heads up that domenic.me/2014/02/14/the-revealing-constructor-pattern/ results in 404
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  888. # [22:19] <Hixie_> jorendorff: bz says that Firefox is going to "progressively parse scripts, and possibly progressively bytecode-compile, and possibly progressively native-code-compile". Do you know how this will interact with the ES6 moduel loader?
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  903. # [22:41] <jwalden> Hixie_: what does "progressively" mean in these contexts?
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  906. # [22:41] <Hixie_> did i delete the e-mail that explained that
  907. # [22:41] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  908. # [22:41] <Hixie_> ah, no, yoav explains it:
  909. # [22:41] <Hixie_> > If receiving multiple resources progressively provides better performance
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  911. # [22:41] <Hixie_> > then having the server sending them one after the other, then the hint
  912. # [22:41] <Hixie_> > should be sent.
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  917. # [22:47] <jorendorff> Hixie_: Hmm. It seems like there is a problem in the ES6 Loader design: that design requires parsing (the full module body) to succeed before starting work on dependencies
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  920. # [22:49] <jorendorff> Hixie_: the normalize hook is called, for each import-declaration, after parsing --
  921. # [22:49] <jorendorff> seems like it is specified to NOT eagerly go after those dependencies before the first one is done loading
  922. # [22:51] <Hixie_> jorendorff: yeah, i've been trying to tell es-discuss this for like a month now
  923. # [22:52] <jorendorff> Hixie_: probably because if you *really* want that Loader to perform, you're not waiting around for all these round trips anyway
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  926. # [22:53] <jorendorff> the server has to tell the app what it needs and push it -- which the model does kind of support
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  932. # [22:59] <Hixie_> jorendorff: not really, unless you mean it supports it because the cache gets primed.
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  934. # [22:59] <Hixie_> jorendorff: but in practice i don't think we can rely on servers like that
  935. # [22:59] <jorendorff> it "supports" it only in that it has appropriate hooks
  936. # [22:59] <Hixie_> jorendorff: i mean, it's been 24 years and people still can't set their mime types correctly
  937. # [23:00] <jorendorff> Hixie_: This is where I have trouble understanding what you're saying though
  938. # [23:00] <jorendorff> Hixie_: because if the client is to have any understanding beforehand of what is to be loaded... then it has to get that somewhere
  939. # [23:00] <jorendorff> from a manifest or "this needs that" declarations of some kind
  940. # [23:00] <Hixie_> sure. people are really good at making their servers serve up static files.
  941. # [23:01] <Hixie_> url -> file
  942. # [23:01] <Hixie_> or url -> cgi script -> file
  943. # [23:01] <Hixie_> it's when you have to configure the server that things get dicey
  944. # [23:01] <Hixie_> url -> file + configured metadata
  945. # [23:01] <Hixie_> url -> multiple files
  946. # [23:02] <Hixie_> url -> redirect, even, in many cases
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  948. # [23:04] <jorendorff> "asset pipeline" stuff exists though
  949. # [23:04] <jorendorff> it's not seen as configuration by the people who have to put up with it
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  951. # [23:05] <jorendorff> it's just the way their platform does things, and they play along with a few rules
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  953. # [23:06] <Hixie_> for some people, sure
  954. # [23:06] <Hixie_> most people, though, i doubt will ever get this working
  955. # [23:07] <Hixie_> just like now some people have CDMs that manage mime types correctly, but most people just ship their files with bogus default types that apache ships with
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  957. # [23:08] <Hixie_> but unlike with mime types, where browsers just ignore them, if we don't provide a way around this, that long tail will either not be able to use es6, or they'll have terrible performance.
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  959. # [23:12] <Hixie_> jorendorff: in any case, this is all moot relative to the point i was talking about above. Even if you only have one module, how can you parse it like bz describes if it has to go through the ES6 module loader pipeline?
  960. # [23:13] <jorendorff> Hixie_: oh, it can speculatively parse all it wants to, just like HTML, right?
  961. # [23:14] <Hixie_> not if the browser doesn't see a single byte until the translate hook has returned
  962. # [23:14] <Hixie_> which happens after the entirety of the fetch hook
  963. # [23:14] <jorendorff> Hixie_: sure, if you play by the rules
  964. # [23:14] <Hixie_> ...
  965. # [23:14] <jorendorff> Hixie_: you can either speculatively parse or not. if you do speculatively parse, you have to not get caught
  966. # [23:14] <jorendorff> like every other optimization
  967. # [23:15] <Hixie_> so basically anyone who uses an ES6 loader is going to see their performance drop off a cliff?
  968. # [23:15] <Hixie_> we should design this so that using this correctly and fully is completely compatible with the optimisations
  969. # [23:15] <Hixie_> e.g. using streams instead of promises
  970. # [23:15] <Hixie_> imho
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  974. # [23:17] <jorendorff> that's fine with me
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  978. # [23:22] <Hixie_> jorendorff: you or bz or something should tell es-discuss :-)
  979. # [23:22] <Hixie_> i don't think people there are listening to me anymore
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  984. # [23:42] <caitp> is it actually specified anywhere that SVG elements in an HTML document are supposed to have the `innerHTML` property?
  985. # [23:43] <caitp> the interaction between svg and html is just super confusing and hard to keep track of
  986. # [23:44] <Hixie_> it's currently defined that they should not, iirc
  987. # [23:44] <caitp> well, blink and gecko both expose it, and applications depend on it
  988. # [23:44] <caitp> but unfortunately those applications break in safari
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The end :)