/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-04-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 30 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  86. # [03:33] <MikeSmith> caitp: about what's hot, 100% agree with what smaug said about ServiceWorker and the Web Components renaissance
  87. # [03:33] * MikeSmith looks back through his list of other stuff
  88. # [03:40] <caitp-> that comment was really more like "what will be getting deprecated in the next 5 years"
  89. # [03:40] <caitp-> because you know, some of this stuff is gonna fall apart
  90. # [03:41] <caitp-> and it will be sad
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  111. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> caitp: oh, well that's an interesting question too
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  114. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> caitp: so in that light, not sure the future looks so bright for IndexedDB
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  116. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> caitp: maybe you know this already but annevk has been driving some effort on a more rational "unified architecture for storage on the web" https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Storage
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  118. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> other stuff... I wonder (hope) that a lot of use cases for Web Sockets might get obviated by WebRTC DataChannel
  119. # [04:52] <roc> MikeSmith: why do you say "not so bright for IndexedDB"?
  120. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> hey roc
  121. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> from talking with annevk and slightlyoff and others last week
  122. # [04:54] <MikeSmith> we already know webdevs aren't exactly warm to that API
  123. # [04:54] <MikeSmith> roc: lemme get you a URL for the notes from annevk session on storage last week
  124. # [04:54] <MikeSmith> roc: or did you see those notes already?
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  127. # [04:55] <MikeSmith> roc: https://pad.w3ctag.org/p/EWS-20April2015-Breakout1.1.md
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  129. # [04:56] <MikeSmith> hmm I see now those a pretty sketchy as far as capturing the comments about IndexedDB
  130. # [04:57] <roc> to be precise, it captured none of them :-)
  131. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> yeah I'm looking to see if some of slightlyoff comments elsewhere got recorded
  132. # [04:59] <MikeSmith> roc: in the mean time if you want a more informed view, you probably want to ask annevk to share some thoughts with you directly
  133. # [05:00] <roc> I hardly ever get to talk to Anne, he's on the wrong side of the planet :-)
  134. # [05:00] <MikeSmith> well
  135. # [05:00] <MikeSmith> you just need to travel more
  136. # [05:00] <MikeSmith> but yeah, sucks for us
  137. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> probably you're in the worst possible timezone for wide real-time collaboration
  138. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> Tokyo is just slightly better
  139. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> roc: https://pad.w3ctag.org/p/22-minutes
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  141. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> see the first part on Storage
  142. # [05:02] <MikeSmith> e.g., slightlyoff comments about "likely we'll struggle with the storage mechanismsm we have right now, because they're not integrated. Re the locking propblem: IndexDB has a similar problem"
  143. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> and "How do we deal with storage locking? Now, IndexDB has a nasty way of daling with this: it closes transactions at the end of the task. You could extend the life of the transaction (artifically), — but it's there to keep developers from getting themselves into an inconsistent state.... This goes badly with other apps wanting access to the storage and trying to coordinate about the transaction lifet
  144. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> ime"
  145. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> "But now, It isn't possible to coordinate your rights to a cached storage area with a indexDB transaction. We're clearly missing a locking system"
  146. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> this reminds me, Travis is pretty great a scribing
  147. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> I was there in the room for that discussion and those notes do a very good job of capturing it in good detail
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  201. # [07:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: so that's the underlying architecture of IDB and localStorage et al
  202. # [07:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: there's no plans for getting rid of IDB
  203. # [07:45] <annevk> MikeSmith: in fact, we're extending it
  204. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> ah so I was confused
  205. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> so you're documenting the underlying architecture but not changing it?
  206. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> I mean it can be changed fundamentally at this point can it?
  207. # [07:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, in a way
  208. # [07:47] <annevk> MikeSmith: what I want to define is what all these APIs are grounded in, what their underlying storage box is
  209. # [07:47] <annevk> MikeSmith: and then define ways to make that box persistent
  210. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> ok
  211. # [07:47] <annevk> MikeSmith: and then define ways to make additional boxes and allow IDB and Cache API etc to use those newly created boxes
  212. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> annevk: ok what about the IndexedDB locking issue that slightlyoff pointed out?
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  214. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> I see
  215. # [07:48] <MikeSmith> so I guess there's no plan to expose a different higher-level API
  216. # [07:49] <annevk> MikeSmith: due to IDB having transactions it doesn't actually have a locking problem
  217. # [07:49] * MikeSmith realizes now he'd been reading too much into this
  218. # [07:49] <annevk> MikeSmith: but the way it does transactions is also what makes it complicated
  219. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> annevk: I thought slightlyoff or somebody brought this up at the summit session too
  220. # [07:50] <MikeSmith> I mean the thing I pointed roc too
  221. # [07:50] <MikeSmith> in the TAG minutes
  222. # [07:50] <annevk> https://gist.github.com/inexorabletash/8c122c84a65de65c35b3 and https://gist.github.com/inexorabletash/a53c6add9fbc8b9b1191 have ideas around new higher-level APIs and new lower-level APIs around IDB
  223. # [07:50] <MikeSmith> ah ok
  224. # [07:51] <annevk> To model IDB with promises you basically need to create some kind of promise subclass to handle transactions
  225. # [07:51] <MikeSmith> so maybe I wasn't completely imagining it
  226. # [07:51] <MikeSmith> my memory is pretty sketchy even in the best of times, let alone when jetlagged and hung over
  227. # [07:51] * MikeSmith looks at annevk links
  228. # [07:51] <roc> phew!
  229. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> heh
  230. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> I'm still sure I didn't imagine the think slightlyoff said about the locking-like problem
  231. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: from http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20150430#l-139
  232. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> "Re the locking propblem: IndexDB has a similar problem" and the other quoted stuff after that
  233. # [07:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: sure, I addressed that above
  234. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> oh
  235. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> I guess I should actually read stuff
  236. # [07:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: all storage has a locking issue since two tabs can address the same storage at the same time
  237. # [07:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: IDB deals with this by having transactions, but not everyone is a fan of the way it does those
  238. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> ah flags
  239. # [07:56] <annevk> MikeSmith: localStorage has a theoretical "storage mutex", but in practice it's racy
  240. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> right yeah that much I already understood
  241. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> and knew too that IndexedDB by design didn't need a mutex
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  243. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> hmm I also recall now that I only caught half your session because I was in whatever session that was next door the other half of that hour
  244. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> anyway I'm glad there's a way forward and things will get rationalized further
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  246. # [08:01] <annevk> We have some cross-browser agreement to add persistent storage
  247. # [08:01] <annevk> But there's quite a bit of demand from e.g. gaming to go beyond that as per the wiki page
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  249. # [08:02] <annevk> Need to flush that out some more and I guess write down persistent storage and storage architecture...
  250. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> I guess that's what I had been thinking about, along with thinking it was planned to supersede/obsolete both IndexedDB and localStorage
  251. # [08:03] <annevk> Ah I see, underpinnings != primitives, at least not yet
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  253. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> aha
  254. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> ok
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  300. # [09:36] <annevk> Hmm
  301. # [09:36] <annevk> Were accounts moved to this new discuss.webplatform.org thing too?
  302. # [09:37] <annevk> Not sure I'm super happy contributing to webplatform.org branded stuff given the disaster they made out of docs
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  308. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> annevk: please keep an open mind there
  309. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> at this point everybody recognizes that the docs thing didn't work out
  310. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> IMHO it was a failed plan from the get-go but I don't fault others for having thought differently and having actually tried in good faith to make it happen as planned
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  312. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> but there is some momentum toward making a reborn webplatform.org that discuss.webplatform.org will be part of, and I think you'll see it transition into being much more of a genuinely community-driven project that you'll be much happier to participate in
  313. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> more like web-platform-tests
  314. # [09:55] <annevk> I don't know, I wasn't particularly thrilled either with the forking of URL to yet another location either
  315. # [09:55] <annevk> I've yet to see the benefit of that
  316. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> well that was not a top-down thing
  317. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> iirc
  318. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> that was a choice that Sam made
  319. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> and maybe it's not going to work out at that other place but if so we can write it off a lesson learned I guess
  320. # [09:57] <annevk> And that community supported that action apparently rather than pushing back
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  323. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> I don't know that anybody "supported" it other than in the sense of facilitating Sam's choice to experiment with it there
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  325. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> anyway to be clear I think when the dust settles for discuss.webplatform.org it will be minus any of the docs.webplatform.org stuff, which at this point pretty clearly to everybody is now completely obviated by MDN (or clearly now always has been)
  326. # [09:59] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  327. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> just please don't feed into killing new ideas for what to do with webplatform.org before anybody's had a chance to try more
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  329. # [10:00] <annevk> Well, what good stuff has happened there so far?
  330. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> the basic goal here really is to try to faciliate more real colloboration
  331. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> annevk: the specifiction stuff
  332. # [10:01] <annevk> It seems to me that happened elsewhere and just got folded in, as they tried to do with MDN and failed pretty drastically at
  333. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> which is just changing from being run at Robin's own domain into being something that tries to fit in with a bigger picture around collaboration
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  335. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> no the analogy would be more like MDN having been moved to a new domain
  336. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> so it's not a fair comparison
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  342. # [10:18] <annevk> philipj: yo
  343. # [10:18] <annevk> philipj: I guess you can rename that repo now
  344. # [10:19] <annevk> philipj: let me know when you're all set up and then I can add the commit hook and such
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  348. # [10:22] <Domenic> annevk: looks like fixing file URLs on windows will be easier than you thought: https://github.com/jsdom/whatwg-url/commit/c13670dffdef1f31cb53d9c342076a27a5742760
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  350. # [10:23] <annevk> Domenic: the lack of tests is disturbing
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  352. # [10:23] <Domenic> annevk: heh yeah that commit was 14 commits ago before he put the web-platform-tests in place. It was just a prototype.
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  354. # [10:23] <annevk> Ah okay
  355. # [10:23] <Domenic> annevk: I am pretty sure Sebmaster is waiting to get 100% pass rate on web-platform-tests before starting to make spec modifications
  356. # [10:24] <Domenic> I am hopeful that we can convince Sebmaster to start submitting PRs to url.spec.whatwg.org :). We can probably tackle lots of the cases at https://url.spec.whatwg.org/interop/test-results/?select=current too
  357. # [10:24] <annevk> Do you think he's willing to help edit the spec? Sam hasn't really been making progress and I don't think the diagramification of parsing is the way to go anymore...
  358. # [10:24] <annevk> Sounds good
  359. # [10:25] <Domenic> Yeah I mean even if he's not then I might be up for doing literal translation from JS to spec-ese since the implementation follows the spec so closely it should be quite easy
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  361. # [10:26] <Domenic> Agreed that diagramification was not so great... I mean I think state machines are pretty reasonable for implementers. Maybe not for authors, but that's a separate issue IMO.
  362. # [10:27] * Ms2ger is very surprised
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  364. # [10:28] <Sebmaster> o/
  365. # [10:29] <annevk> I slightly prefer the functional variant SimonSapin came up with for Rust, I think that could work well in the specification and make it a little easier to comprehend
  366. # [10:29] <Sebmaster> Not sure if I'm good at writing specs
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  368. # [10:29] <annevk> But I could live with keeping the current state-based version
  369. # [10:29] <annevk> Sebmaster: it's translating code to English and coming up with "good" terms
  370. # [10:30] <Sebmaster> my modification to the algorithm is buggy at the moment in any case, it doesn't work well with resolving //C:/abc on base file:///D:/
  371. # [10:30] <botie> Hmm. No matches for that, Sebmaster.
  372. # [10:30] <Sebmaster> but that shouldnt be hard to fix
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  376. # [10:32] <Domenic> wait, what triggered botie, that was weird
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  382. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> Domenic: yeah I guess that triggered the thing in botie where looks for "x is y" stuff but not sure why botie seems to have thought Sebmaster was asking for a match for something
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  388. # [10:46] <philipj> annevk: richt and I are setting it up right now, I'll ping you shortly
  389. # [10:47] <annevk> philipj: cool, I agree that the renaming is better
  390. # [10:47] <annevk> philipj: GitHub takes care of redirects and you keep everyone that already starred and forked engaged
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  393. # [10:55] <philipj> annevk: I didn't know about renames before Marcos told me yesterday :)
  394. # [11:00] <philipj> annevk: https://github.com/whatwg/mediasession now has a mediasession.html, any time the master branch changes we'd like that to be published to https://mediasession.spec.whatwg.org
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  398. # [11:07] <annevk> philipj: it's live
  399. # [11:07] <annevk> philipj: you need to update some links in the spec to reflect the new GitHub URL
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  401. # [11:10] <Domenic> philipj: I also have it on my todo list to hook up automatic compilation so you don't have to commit output to repos
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  410. # [11:34] <annevk> philipj: you also need a logo :p
  411. # [11:48] <Sebmaster> Oh yeah, annevk
  412. # [11:49] <Sebmaster> the url test suite expects some test cases to fail; does "fail" in that context mean parse error or return failure?
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  415. # [12:04] <annevk> Sebmaster: not sure
  416. # [12:05] <annevk> Sebmaster: prolly return failure
  417. # [12:05] <Sebmaster> yeah, i think so too
  418. # [12:05] <annevk> Sebmaster: I don't think parse errors are tested
  419. # [12:05] <Sebmaster> since as far as i read, parse errors arent even exposed on the final url object?
  420. # [12:05] <annevk> Anyone experience with WiFi repeaters? Wondering whether to buy an Airport Express since there's some lag between floors...
  421. # [12:06] <annevk> Sebmaster: correct, they're an error console affair
  422. # [12:06] <annevk> Sebmaster: well, potential error console affair
  423. # [12:06] <annevk> Sebmaster: it's not entirely clear what we want to do with them yet
  424. # [12:06] <SteveF_> annevk: cheers for responses yestrerday
  425. # [12:07] <Sebmaster> 14 test cases still failing then, most of them due to unicode / host verification
  426. # [12:08] <annevk> Sounds like we need more tests
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  435. # [12:51] <Sebmaster> i think i won't be able to continue with host validation without someone implementing this flavor of TR46 in JS :(
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  437. # [12:54] <Domenic> Sebmaster: I think rubys might have done so. At least, he has a JS implementation that passes all the tests.
  438. # [12:54] <Sebmaster> where's that?
  439. # [12:55] <Domenic> https://github.com/rubys/url/tree/peg.js/reference-implementation I think... there's some Ruby-to-JS stuff going on...
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  442. # [12:57] <Sebmaster> ah, that retrieves the mapping table thing
  443. # [12:57] <Domenic> then https://github.com/rubys/url/blob/peg.js/url.pegjs#L600-L616
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  469. # [14:07] <philipj> annevk: awesome, thanks you!
  470. # [14:08] <philipj> Domenic: that would be cleaner, but I quite like that I can go back in the history of specs to see what they looked like at each point, which is a lot harder if toolchains and build scripts change over the years
  471. # [14:09] * wilsonpage is now known as wilsonpage-away
  472. # [14:10] <annevk> philipj: Domenic keeps static snapshots for that
  473. # [14:10] <philipj> annevk: in a separate repo?
  474. # [14:11] <annevk> philipj: no repo, similar to what browsers do for nightly builds
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  476. # [14:11] <Domenic> auto-generated and uploaded to the server on every push. https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/commit-snapshots
  477. # [14:11] <philipj> oh, I guess that works if you're looking for a specific version
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  481. # [14:15] <Domenic> https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/commit-snapshots/?C=M;O=D gives a nice chronological view too
  482. # [14:21] <philipj> annevk: is the webhook installed now? https://mediasession.spec.whatwg.org/ is no longer in sync with Git
  483. # [14:21] <philipj> or does it update once an hour or something?
  484. # [14:22] <annevk> philipj: oh maybe I forgot to set chmod
  485. # [14:24] <annevk> philipj: seems to work?
  486. # [14:24] <philipj> annevk: now it's up to date, did you have to poke something?
  487. # [14:25] <annevk> philipj: well I poked something that should be poked automatically
  488. # [14:25] <philipj> annevk: hmm, is the webhook on a specific port that needs to be opened?
  489. # [14:25] <philipj> (that's how I did mine)
  490. # [14:25] <annevk> philipj: no
  491. # [14:26] <annevk> philipj: it says it already worked a couple times successfully
  492. # [14:26] <annevk> philipj: perhaps you had a cache hit?
  493. # [14:27] <philipj> annevk: I reloaded a bunch, so I don't think so
  494. # [14:27] <annevk> philipj: hmm let me know if this persists
  495. # [14:27] <philipj> annevk: where are the logs on the server so I can check myself if it fails again?
  496. # [14:27] <annevk> philipj: in logs top-level dir
  497. # [14:29] <philipj> annevk: I guess it's not on the same machine as html5.org where I'm looking?
  498. # [14:29] <annevk> philipj: oh right
  499. # [14:31] <annevk> philipj: let me try to copy your key to this other server too
  500. # [14:32] <philipj> annevk: I guess I can then just ssh to mediasession.spec.whatwg.org?
  501. # [14:32] <annevk> philipj: yeah, if only I could figure out how to copy a line from nano
  502. # [14:34] <philipj> annevk: ctrl+k, but I don't know if that puts it in any clipboard
  503. # [14:34] <annevk> doesn't
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  522. # [15:10] <annevk> Domenic: I feel like you hijacked that thread a bit... oh well, hopefully everyone can still follow
  523. # [15:11] <Domenic> annevk: I was trying to come up with a way to solve the "when do we call distributeCallback" and "how do we get consistency on offsetTop etc." problem.
  524. # [15:11] <annevk> we can't
  525. # [15:11] <annevk> that's why you throw offsetTop of the rails
  526. # [15:12] <Domenic> it wasn't clear to me at the time. last message helps a bit.
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  528. # [15:13] <annevk> To understand this is a bit like baking apple pie
  529. # [15:13] <annevk> Actually, the first invent the universe analogy doesn't hold up too well
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  531. # [15:14] <annevk> Domenic: so Layout is async. But offsetTop forces Layout to be sync.
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  533. # [15:14] <annevk> Domenic: Distribution is async but needs to happen before Layout. So offsetTop forces it to be sync.
  534. # [15:14] <Domenic> sure. still seems OK to me for .offsetTop to invoke distributeCallback.
  535. # [15:15] <Domenic> why is distribution async
  536. # [15:15] <annevk> Domenic: well say it's sync
  537. # [15:15] <annevk> Domenic: then modifying the DOM invokes distribution sync
  538. # [15:15] <annevk> Domenic: and then we have mutation events back
  539. # [15:16] <annevk> we want sync mutation events less than we want offsetTop to work, imo
  540. # [15:17] <Domenic> maybe. I dunno, I can see authors adding `set offsetTop(v) { this.distribute(); super.offsetTop = v; }` etc. to get the behavior back.
  541. # [15:17] <annevk> seems fine
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  543. # [15:17] <annevk> and they could likewise overload appendChild and such like that
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  545. # [15:17] <Domenic> yeah, someone will make a mixin that just overrides everything necessary.
  546. # [15:18] <Domenic> almost some sort of ... shadow DOM polyfill ....
  547. # [15:18] <annevk> which is why I'd prefer not do anything with timing or doing anything automatically for v1
  548. # [15:18] <annevk> although timing equivalent to mutation observers seems reasonable and not too hard to add
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  630. # [17:55] <annevk_> TabAtkins: so if I want to link "environment settings object" in HTML, what's the easiest way to do that?
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  636. # [18:10] <dglazkov> annevk: have to be careful here with offsetTop et al.
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  638. # [18:11] <dglazkov> I agree they're terrible APIs, but they also are widely used
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  642. # [18:11] <dglazkov> so we need to make darn sure we don't turn the distribution API into something that you can only use on in a small set of the web that doesn't use these terrible APIs
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  644. # [18:12] <annevk> As long as we leave timing to users of the API there's no problem
  645. # [18:12] <dglazkov> can you explain this a bit more?
  646. # [18:13] <annevk> Distribution only happens when you invoke distribute()
  647. # [18:13] <dglazkov> btw, my concern is captured well here: https://gist.github.com/rniwa/2f14588926e1a11c65d3#extention-to-custom-elements-for-consistency
  648. # [18:14] <dglazkov> I think the question is: who needs to invoke the distribute()? In a situation where component is developed by dev A and is being used by dev B, specifically.
  649. # [18:15] <smaug____> annevk: well, we may need to define some way to trigger callbacks at the end of nanotasks, in order to have distribution happening early enough
  650. # [18:16] <dglazkov> what if we just run them in a separate environment, pure-function-style
  651. # [18:16] <dglazkov> ?
  652. # [18:16] <smaug____> don't understand that question
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  654. # [18:17] <smaug____> separate environment?
  655. # [18:17] <dglazkov> run distribution callback in a separate script environment, with no access to the docs global
  656. # [18:17] <smaug____> like, adding isolation ;)
  657. # [18:17] <dglazkov> sort of, except in a very limited way
  658. # [18:17] <dglazkov> like a pure function, where there's really nothing else but the arguments of the function
  659. # [18:18] <dglazkov> that way, there will never be a problem with timing and we don't have to specify how the execution of the distribution callback correlates with the style resolution or anything like that
  660. # [18:18] <smaug____> well, if arguments are like nodelists, you can access the global object from there
  661. # [18:19] <dglazkov> they would be some dumb objects
  662. # [18:19] <smaug____> oh, some kind of weird proxy objects around the actual nodes
  663. # [18:19] <dglazkov> like a serialization of an element
  664. # [18:19] <dglazkov> or a proxy
  665. # [18:19] <smaug____> s/weird/dummy/
  666. # [18:19] * dglazkov waves hands
  667. # [18:23] <annevk> I'm not sure that's gonna work
  668. # [18:23] <annevk> that would defeat things like using Media Queries as input to distribute nodes
  669. # [18:23] <annevk> or require adding all those APIs in an "separate script environment"
  670. # [18:24] <dglazkov> true
  671. # [18:24] <annevk> dglazkov: A needs to invoke distribute(), though B could too I suppose if it's not closed
  672. # [18:24] <annevk> smaug____: do we need to do that for v1?
  673. # [18:24] <smaug____> add a flag to MutationObserver whether it should be called at the end of microtask or nanotask, and let shadow dom users then call distribute if needed ?
  674. # [18:24] <dglazkov> annevk: when does A invoke distribute(), then?
  675. # [18:25] <annevk> smaug____: nanotask observers seems useful, but I wonder whether we need it for v1
  676. # [18:25] <smaug____> annevk: maybe not for v1, but need to think about v2 too a bit
  677. # [18:25] <annevk> dglazkov: whenever they think that is needed
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  679. # [18:25] <dglazkov> annevk: I would like to flesh this out a bit more :)
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  681. # [18:26] <annevk> dglazkov: I think I would put advice to devs to use mutation observers
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  683. # [18:27] <annevk> dglazkov: but they have the freedom to call it at other times or provide hooks to the outside world, etc.
  684. # [18:27] <smaug____> yeah, I like the freedom distribute() gives
  685. # [18:28] <smaug____> we're just missing the nanotask-like thing from the platform atm, and that will be needed at some point
  686. # [18:28] <smaug____> (perhaps we need nanotasks only for DOM mutations, so it wouldn't be a generic thing, but MutationObserver only)
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  688. # [18:28] <annevk> nanotasks are like IDL exit callbacks
  689. # [18:28] <dglazkov> let's try to make this a bit more concrete: https://gist.github.com/dglazkov/bdbe817b9cce48e4d072
  690. # [18:29] <dglazkov> when does A have a chance to run distribute in that gist?
  691. # [18:29] <annevk> dglazkov: as I said elsewhere that fails
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  693. # [18:29] <annevk> dglazkov: though not with a future nanotasks thingie
  694. # [18:29] <annevk> dglazkov: here is the tradeoff: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2015AprJun/0450.html
  695. # [18:30] <annevk> dglazkov: if you can defeat the tradeoff you win, but otherwise we should just make a choice and move on
  696. # [18:30] <smaug____> annevk: we don't want distribute() to be called at the end of any nanotask, only after dom mutations, I think
  697. # [18:30] <dglazkov> annevk: I am confused. Are you saying that you would put the burden on B to make this work?
  698. # [18:30] <annevk> smaug____: I agree that we want to scope nanotasks
  699. # [18:31] <annevk> dglazkov: yeah
  700. # [18:31] <dglazkov> annevk: that means that shadow DOM components can't be used in pretty much any framework that exists today.
  701. # [18:31] <dglazkov> that seems... drastic?
  702. # [18:31] <annevk> dglazkov: again see tradeoff?
  703. # [18:33] <dglazkov> annevk: I saw the link, but I am not sure that the cost of web component not being adopted anywhere in any foreseable future is worth the benefit in this trade-off
  704. # [18:33] <dglazkov> right?
  705. # [18:33] <dglazkov> I mean.. the whole point of web components is to conform to DOM contract that exists currently
  706. # [18:34] <annevk> dglazkov: I don't think there's another tradeoff?
  707. # [18:34] <dglazkov> the separate environment is one
  708. # [18:35] <dglazkov> you're trading hypothetical media query use cases for being able to satisfy all other requirements
  709. # [18:35] <annevk> dglazkov: that seems very unlikely to happen to me
  710. # [18:36] <dglazkov> tell me more
  711. # [18:36] <annevk> As far as I know this has been a research area for TC39 for quite a while
  712. # [18:37] <dglazkov> oh, I see
  713. # [18:37] <annevk> At least subclassing was a somewhat concrete idea when we started Shadow DOM
  714. # [18:37] <annevk> I mean, Web Components
  715. # [18:37] <dglazkov> you're worried that if we pursue true pure functions, we'll be blocked on TC39 for a while
  716. # [18:38] <annevk> Another five years?
  717. # [18:38] <dglazkov> that seems _awesome_
  718. # [18:38] <dglazkov> :D
  719. # [18:38] * annevk would like to ship something...
  720. # [18:38] <annevk> dglazkov: so nanotasks?
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  722. # [18:38] <annevk> dglazkov: mutation observer nanotasks, that is
  723. # [18:39] <annevk> dglazkov: that gives A a callback at the end of B's call to appendChild(), which can invoke distribute(), which means B's call to offset gets the right answer
  724. # [18:40] <dglazkov> you know what
  725. # [18:40] <dglazkov> maybe!
  726. # [18:40] <dglazkov> let me think about this
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  738. # [19:04] <annevk> Hahaha
  739. # [19:04] <annevk> <a>origin</a> links to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-cascade-4/#origin
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  743. # [19:08] <annevk> TabAtkins: so what I'd like is something like <a from=html>origin</a>
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  752. # [19:32] <Domenic> Pure functions can be defined without TC39 I think
  753. # [19:32] <Domenic> You serialize the function to a string
  754. # [19:32] <Domenic> If it works in the other environment then it's pure
  755. # [19:32] <Domenic> That is what came up when I asked TC39 about this
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  758. # [19:37] <bradleymeck> Domenic: you can also parse out if a function is pure, but it is pricey in JS
  759. # [19:37] <bradleymeck> parse/analyze
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  810. # [20:04] <wanderview> jgraham: I think this one is ready for merge: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/4838
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  812. # [20:12] <jgraham> wanderview: Done. How many of your PRs are left?
  813. # [20:12] <jgraham> Just one?
  814. # [20:12] <wanderview> jgraham: just one :-) https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/4825
  815. # [20:13] <jgraham> OK, I'll kick off an update in gecko as soon as that one gets reviewed
  816. # [20:13] <jgraham> and merged
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  819. # [20:18] <dglazkov> Domenic: how quickly can we confirm/reject the hypothesis that we don't need TC39 for pure functions?
  820. # [20:19] <dglazkov> I would like to keep all ideas on the table
  821. # [20:19] <dglazkov> do we even need pure functions?
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  827. # [20:24] * SteveF_ trys to follow shadow dom/web components discussion, totally out of my league
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  835. # [20:35] <MikeSmith> botie, inform SteveF_ re: "SteveF_ trys to follow shadow dom/web components discussion, totally out of my league", you're in good company. I think the set of people who actually understand all of this well can be counted on two hands
  836. # [20:35] <botie> will do
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  844. # [20:44] * fredy_ is now known as fredy
  845. # [20:44] <caitp-> trevnorris, re: optimizing subclasses, i wouldn't expect hydrogen to deal with them, but turbofan might already
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  848. # [20:45] <trevnorris> caitp-: not as of 4.4.44. was trying to get some info out for IRHydra and there was no output.
  849. # [20:45] <caitp-> does IRHydra deal with TF at all?
  850. # [20:46] <trevnorris> yup.
  851. # [20:46] <caitp-> anyways, it will end up optimized in TF at some point
  852. # [20:46] <trevnorris> no doubt. it just threw me when there wasn't any output. thought there was something wrong with the internal V8 tracing.
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  870. # [21:12] <Domenic> dglazkov: we can do a slow polyfill (web workers + actual JS serialization) in a day or two.
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  873. # [21:17] <botie> SteveF_, at 2015-04-30 18:33 UTC, MikeSmith said: re: "SteveF_ trys to follow shadow dom/web components discussion, totally out of my league", you're in good company. I think the set of people who actually understand all of this well can be counted on two hands
  874. # [21:18] <SteveF_> botie: gotcha player ;-)
  875. # [21:18] <botie> SteveF_: i'm not following you...
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  877. # [21:20] <jgraham> Anyone know why this expects to throw an error? https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/master/workers/interfaces/WorkerGlobalScope/close/setTimeout.html
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  919. # [22:15] <wanderview> Domenic: its unfortunate Response.body.getReader() does not have backpressure yet
  920. # [22:16] <wanderview> I guess I can build backpressure at the app level
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  951. # [23:28] <jgraham> Hixie: Did the spec at some point change so that a worker that does close(); setTimeout(function(){},0) would no longer fire an error event?
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  957. # [23:39] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: can you give rniwa w3c/webcomponents commit bit?
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  961. # [23:50] <terinjokes> JakeA: w/r/t your tweet, it's something I certainly want to do
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  967. # Session Close: Fri May 01 00:00:01 2015

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