/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-08-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 31 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:53] <MikeSmith> Domenic: OK (about moving issues)
  12. # [00:53] <MikeSmith> Domenic: the two or so I moved I did so because I think we can get more visibility at Github for them can we can just keeping them in W3C bugzilla
  13. # [00:54] <MikeSmith> and those two are sorta explicitly soliciting help from any contributors willing to spend some time writing a script to generate the indexes
  14. # [00:57] <MikeSmith> so my thinking was that we're more likely to get somebody volunteering if there's an issue at GitHub for it
  15. # [00:57] <MikeSmith> or maybe you were
  16. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> *you were just saying that we should also keep the W3C bug open until something actually lands for it
  17. # [01:00] <MikeSmith> anyway, as I said, there are no other W3C bugs that I was thinking should just be moved other than the ones I moved already
  18. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> Domenic: about the "Don't require throwing everything into one directory before doing the build..." thing, thanksーI'll write up a patch to review and raise a PR for it
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  173. # [08:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: someone downvoted your SO question...
  174. # [08:02] * annevk added an upvote to put it back at 0
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  176. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> hahah
  177. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> ah, my SO reputation has increaed now! I guess that was you
  178. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> (high five)
  179. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> I may put a "bounty" on that question
  180. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> never done that on SO before
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  182. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> I think the way it works, I have to "pay" some points, but I kinda care fuck all how much points I have, so that would still be all win
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  185. # [08:20] <annevk> MikeSmith: I think some of those index issues are mentioned in either wattsi or html-build
  186. # [08:25] * Joins: alrra (uid62345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tsspoulrxklcfvdl)
  187. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> annevk: ah ok
  188. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> I will take a look at that
  189. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> there is some really clever stuff in those tools
  190. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> I mean Hixie's spec-production tools
  191. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> others could learn a lot from them *cough*Bikeshed*cought*
  192. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> like, that thing I accidentally discovered yesterday, which Hixie has in there to look for places where the source has "a" where it should have "an" (and vice versa)
  193. # [08:32] <annevk> Kind of cool that it discovered that even for stuff wrapped in markup
  194. # [08:39] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: tantek)
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  197. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> indeed
  198. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> Hixie++
  199. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, speaking of SO bounties, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32137010/how-to-allow-webworker-to-call-https-url/32296750?noredirect=1#32137010
  200. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> or just http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32137010/how-to-allow-webworker-to-call-https-url/32296750
  201. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> dunno if there's a good answer to that question but at least it seems like that OP hasn't gotten a good one yet
  202. # [08:44] * annevk discovers https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27869
  203. # [08:44] <annevk> The IETF actually changed the WebSocket specification to be incompatible with the API
  204. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> eh?
  205. # [08:46] * MikeSmith reads
  206. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> "Could we just have the IETF spec fixed instead?"
  207. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> indeed
  208. # [08:46] <annevk> There's no way to actively invoke the IETF algorithm with a set of headers even
  209. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> I thought they had quit touching that stuff a long time ago
  210. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> somebody has still been fiddling with the protocol spec?
  211. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> kinda ironic
  212. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> given that most IETF specs are written and then never changed, and when you *want* somebody to make a change to an IETF spec, the responsible parties usually just shrug their shoulders and explain why it's not gonna happen
  213. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> hmm but looking at the link that Takeshi cites, that change was made a long time ago https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-hybi-thewebsocketprotocol-10
  214. # [08:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: that SO question is a bit vague, might just be that Safari has a bug
  215. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> I had thought he was saying they changed it after it went to RFC
  216. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK, well if it's not clear to what the problem is, then I reckon it's not a general problem
  217. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> maybe there's a Safari bug open for it
  218. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah, now that I think of it, I have seen reports of other weird https-related issues that only seem to be reproducible in Safari
  219. # [08:59] * Quits: ohaibbq (~ohaibbq@98.248.65.213) (Quit: Leaving...)
  220. # [09:02] <annevk> "Your message to hybi awaits moderator approval"
  221. # [09:02] <annevk> ugh
  222. # [09:05] * Quits: jyasskin (~jyasskin@173-228-80-34.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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  229. # [09:44] <annevk> grep -ni 'and/or' source | perl -lpe 'print "\nOccurrences of making Ms2ger unhappy and/or annoyed:" if $. == 1'
  230. # [09:44] <Ms2ger> Ha
  231. # [09:48] <mkwst> annevk, MikeSmith: Thanks for going through the nonce patch with me. :)
  232. # [09:49] <mkwst> I'll have more for you, I'm sure.
  233. # [09:49] <Ms2ger> mkwst, wanna merge CSP into Fetch?
  234. # [09:49] <mkwst> Ms2ger: I want to give Fetch some hooks into CSP. Like http://mikewest.github.io/webappsec/specs/content-security-policy/#algorithms-fetch
  235. # [09:50] <mkwst> But CSP isn't exclusive to Fetch. See the `nonce` thing I just mentioned. :)
  236. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> mkwst: thanks for taking time to write up that patch. It hits the sweet spot (as far as having something that provides enough to make it wortwhile to add, without waiting to have anything at all in the HTML spec until the other bits (from your TODO editorial note) are also added)
  237. # [09:53] <mkwst> MikeSmith: I want to get rid of my monkey patches. *shrug*
  238. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> yeah
  239. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> anything that first at least just gets rid of monkey patch is a win
  240. # [09:54] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Of course, that means I need to get the patches into W3C's HTML as well.
  241. # [09:54] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Which looks like it's going to be a huge mess, honestly. :)
  242. # [09:55] <gsnedders> Is anyone planning on getting all the ruby stuff everyone implements into HTML?
  243. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> mkwst: also fwiw (and not to make you blush) I also admire your sense of judgment as an editor. You have a somewhat rare combination of being highly prolific while at the same time consistently hitting the right targets
  244. # [09:56] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Aw shucks... Thank you. :)
  245. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> heh
  246. # [09:56] <mkwst> MikeSmith: I'm working on too much at the moment. Not enough is actually getting done. :/
  247. # [09:57] <mkwst> I'm good at starting things, but not yet good at finishing them. This credential management api quagmire, for example.
  248. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> mkwst: ah yeah the credential-management thing seems like something I'd like to stay way away from :)
  249. # [09:58] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@ptr-2hj4tblvksdoqwr318avut18l.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  250. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> mkwst: but by my reckoning you and Brad have been handling that well (and patiently)
  251. # [09:58] <annevk> gsnedders: if you want to give it a go, it's yours
  252. # [09:59] <mkwst> MikeSmith: well, yes and no. It's taking too long for not enough benefit (either for me or the credentials CG).
  253. # [09:59] <annevk> mkwst: W3C HTML is not really a thing implementors use
  254. # [09:59] <mkwst> We're talking in circles, and I need to just suck it up and cut the knot.
  255. # [09:59] <mkwst> annevk: 1. I know. 2. It doesn't matter.
  256. # [09:59] <gsnedders> annevk: I don't massively want to. Rewriting all the spec text that berjon wrote doesn't seem worthwhile. It's just really awkward not having the parser as implemented defined anywhere.
  257. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> mkwst: about "Not enough is actually getting done." I guess it should be about quality and not quantity. One person can only do so much. We need more people writing security-related specs. More hands make light work, and all that.
  258. # [10:00] <mkwst> I only care about the W3C HTML spec insofar as I need to advance specs to REC due to patent idiocy.
  259. # [10:00] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Hey! I have some specs you could write!
  260. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> hahah
  261. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> mkwst: oh, speaking of that, I have something for you to please review
  262. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> not a spec, sadly
  263. # [10:01] <mkwst> sure
  264. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> but less work
  265. # [10:01] <mkwst> I like less work.
  266. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> hah. I would like to have a T-shirt that says that.
  267. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> mkwst: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/Subresource_Integrity
  268. # [10:03] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Probably better to get one of the SRI editors to review that. It's the only spec I've been able to successfully delegate out. :)
  269. # [10:03] * Quits: jdaggett_ (~jdaggett@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  270. # [10:03] <mkwst> But I'll skim it.
  271. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> thanks yeah I was thinking about asking the editors, but... I've never communicated with any of them before. But anyway, I'm being lazy, I'll ping them too
  272. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> mkwst: when you skim it, feel free to just make any changes directly if you want. Or if you prefer just lemme know what if anything I should change (or add)
  273. # [10:06] <mkwst> Sure. I just sent Joel an email (CC'd you). He can loop in other folks if he wants.
  274. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> super
  275. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> thanks
  276. # [10:06] <mkwst> (Or you could just tweet at them, which is fairly low overhead. :) )
  277. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> ah yeah that too
  278. # [10:07] <mkwst> Here: "@metromoxie @fmarier @frgx @freddyb: Hey! Mind taking a look at some SRI documentation I put on MDN? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/Subresource_Integrity"
  279. # [10:07] <mkwst> ;P
  280. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: about the ruby stuff maybe Robin can write up a patch himself. If there are issues with it as far not being up to snuff with the norms for the HTML spec itself, then people can make review comments and he can make fixes.
  281. # [10:08] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: yeah, probably more worthwhile
  282. # [10:09] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: it's just that I think all the arguments that have been made about it before don't stand when everyone implements it and the WHATWG spec is fiction.
  283. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> Robin has sorta been the one who cared most about getting it specced and implemented (I didn't) and he's the one who did the work of communicating with the implementors and seeing things through to getting the browser patches landed and all that
  284. # [10:09] <gsnedders> i know
  285. # [10:09] <gsnedders> but he isn't on IRC :P
  286. # [10:10] <gsnedders> and therefore isn't a real person
  287. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I don't think anybody disagrees with that (what you said about the arguments). Not at this point at least.
  288. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> and it's far from being the worst thing that's ever been added to the platform. And some smart people in Japan really think it's good.
  289. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> Masuyuki (from Mozilla) tore into me pretty seriously when I criticized it
  290. # [10:12] <annevk> darobin hangs out here from time to time
  291. # [10:12] <annevk> gsnedders: it would help me if you could identify the patch against W3C HTML that added these elements and corresponding links into W3C HTML where these elements are defined
  292. # [10:13] <annevk> gsnedders: given that I might be able to give it a go soonish since the mismatches should be sort of a priority
  293. # [10:13] <annevk> gsnedders: I still need to get the build system running locally though
  294. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: s/Masuyuki/Masatoshi/ https://lists.mozilla.org/pipermail/dev-platform/2014-December/008136.html
  295. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> I think Robin is in another timezone now, btw
  296. # [10:15] * Joins: espadrine (~tyl@dan75-7-88-166-187-54.fbx.proxad.net)
  297. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: I am working on a patch for the build system (or rather I'm really not yet but I should be and will try to get the patch written up today and PR'ed for review)
  298. # [10:21] <annevk> MikeSmith: for Mac, which of ftp://freepascal.stack.nl/pub/fpc/beta/3.0.0-rc1/i386-macosx/ should I get?
  299. # [10:21] <annevk> ftp://freepascal.stack.nl/pub/fpc/beta/3.0.0-rc1/i386-macosx/fpc-3.0.0rc1.intel-macosx.dmg ?
  300. # [10:21] * Quits: psy_ (~psy@43.224.156.117) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  301. # [10:22] <annevk> It seems Free Pascal will be one of the first to fall when mkwst removes ftp URL access
  302. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: not fpc-3.0.0rc1.intel-macosx.dmg
  303. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> oh
  304. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> no, actually, yeah, that one
  305. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> that's the same I grabbed for my macbook and it works
  306. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> hahahah :) > It seems Free Pascal will be one of the first to fall when mkwst removes ftp URL access
  307. # [10:26] <annevk> MikeSmith: so if we update the DEFINES in the build.sh it would fail on other platforms I guess?
  308. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> annevk: dunno
  309. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> you'd need to ask Hixie
  310. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> he's the one who told me it was Mac-specific
  311. # [10:29] <annevk> hmm I get complaints about Xcode
  312. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> you might have to update your XCode command-line tools
  313. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> gimme a minute to find the docs
  314. # [10:31] <annevk> Yeah, but Xcode claims I only have outstanding documentation updates
  315. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: just "xcode-select --install" I guess
  316. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: the command-line tools are separate thing, right?
  317. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> separate update
  318. # [10:31] <annevk> oh
  319. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> (why they do it that way I dunno)
  320. # [10:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: you said you made some changes to html-build too write that made things easier?
  321. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> I just made symlinks
  322. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> to everything in the html dir
  323. # [10:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: how do I go about that?
  324. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> ln ../html/source .
  325. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> in the html-build dir
  326. # [10:35] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@159.180.228.142)
  327. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> and same for other files
  328. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> or really if you want to do it quick and dirty, use wildcards
  329. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> ln ../html/* .
  330. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> and
  331. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> ln ../html/.* .
  332. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> or maybe just ../html/.multipage-404 is all you need (as far as the dot files)
  333. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> actually I guess you don't strictly even need that
  334. # [10:38] <mkwst> annevk: I won't be terribly sad. If you want to FTP, use the FTP app we'll make available in the Chrome Web Store. And lock youself into our platform forever. Muwahaha. /me destroys the web
  335. # [10:38] * Quits: dshwang (~dshwang@134.134.137.71) (Remote host closed the connection)
  336. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> annevk: there's also a .htaccess file there but I don't think you need that (unless you want to test in Apache locally)
  337. # [10:40] * Joins: MajorT (MajorT@81.164.121.162)
  338. # [10:40] <annevk> So the wattsi repo should maybe have a .gitignore file for bin/?
  339. # [10:43] * Joins: dshwang (~dshwang@192.55.54.40)
  340. # [10:46] <annevk> Hah, I don't have wget
  341. # [10:46] <annevk> Not sure if that was the only thing that made this fall apart but it's certainly part of it
  342. # [10:54] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  344. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah probably there should be a .gitignore for bin/
  345. # [10:59] <annevk> And html-build needs .gitignore .cldr-data
  346. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
  347. # [10:59] <mkwst> Can we simply integrate the three repositories? Is there a good reason for keeping the build scripts separate from the only source file that will ever use them?
  348. # [10:59] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  349. # [11:00] <annevk> We run the build scripts on the server
  350. # [11:00] <annevk> And wattsi is separate since it's fairly standalone
  351. # [11:00] <mkwst> But I assume you update the scripts from the repo before you run them, right? And you update the source file as well. Why call `git pull` twice when you could just call it once?
  352. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> yeah to that (about wattsi)
  353. # [11:01] <mkwst> wattsi as submodule?
  354. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> I hope we don't need to do submodules
  355. # [11:01] <mkwst> well, i hope we don't have to symlink or copy. :)
  356. # [11:01] <annevk> mkwst: file a bug against html-build?
  357. # [11:01] <annevk> mkwst: best to discuss it asynchronously since Domenic needs to partake
  358. # [11:02] <mkwst> oh.. is IRC not the bug-filing mechanism? :)
  359. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> for wattsi we should just make binaries available, really. I'm pretty sure that's what Domenic would like and what he wrote up somewhere already
  360. # [11:02] <annevk> mkwst: "depends"
  361. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> distribute three binaries: one linux binary, one mac binary, one windows
  362. # [11:03] * Quits: espadrine (~tyl@dan75-7-88-166-187-54.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  363. # [11:03] <annevk> Yeah that would be nice
  364. # [11:03] * Joins: espadrine_ (~tyl@srv02.capitainetrain.com)
  365. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> mkwst: I do think we should consider moving the html-build contents to the html repo, at least
  366. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> yeah, distributing the binaries would not be hard to do. one person one time builds the mac binary, etc.
  367. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> it's not like we're going to be updating the wattsi sources all the time
  368. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> we could actually have the html-build just automatically download the appropriate wattsi binary
  369. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> the html-build already requires a network connection, and it downloads a shitload of... what? I don't know actually. (data from caniuse maybe?)
  370. # [11:07] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Yeah. It would be nice to separate "update dependencies" from "generate the spec".
  371. # [11:08] <mkwst> The build script would be better split into component steps, rather than the monolithic "do everything" it is today.
  372. # [11:10] <mkwst> https://github.com/whatwg/html-build/issues/5
  373. # [11:10] <annevk> I think what Domenic wants to do is that when you submit a PR for "source", some script does the building for you and supplies debugging information on GitHub
  374. # [11:11] <mkwst> annevk: yeah. integrating with Travis seems like a clear win.
  375. # [11:11] <annevk> We should probably still simplify building locally though for if you want to make bigger changes
  376. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> yeah
  377. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> I'm sure that's the plan (full automatation via Travis)
  378. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: right
  379. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> we still need to be able to build locally as well
  380. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> you want to be able to check something before you push
  381. # [11:12] <mkwst> annevk: They go hand in hand, right? I don't think the current setup is going to be easy to get running on Travis in anything like a performant fashion.
  382. # [11:13] <mkwst> improving things for local builds is the same as improving things for Travis.
  383. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> aslo when reviewing, you want to be able to check the rendered output from code somebody's PR branch
  384. # [11:13] <mkwst> (as a side note, I'm so happy that this move has happened... submitting PRs is significantly simpler for me than sending an email into a black hole)
  385. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> hear hear
  386. # [11:15] <darobin> +1
  387. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> hey darobin!
  388. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> darobin: gsnedders wants to talk with you about ruby (since for some reason he actually wants to have a spec to check tests against, or something)
  389. # [11:16] <darobin> that's madness
  390. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> heh
  391. # [11:16] <darobin> I'm going to be in and out of IRC this week; prepping last details for the trip and all
  392. # [11:17] <gsnedders> darobin: plz help merge the ruby stuff into the WHATWG spec
  393. # [11:17] <darobin> so email might work best
  394. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> darobin: well, I already volunteered you to (re)write a patch. so set all that other trip stuff aside for now
  395. # [11:17] <darobin> gsnedders: have you looked at the stuff and hit a bump, or are you just asking for the merge?
  396. # [11:17] <darobin> ah ok
  397. # [11:17] <darobin> I can do that
  398. # [11:17] <darobin> but it might have to wait until I'm in NY
  399. # [11:17] <darobin> lol
  400. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> darobin: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20150831#l-256 for the context
  401. # [11:18] <gsnedders> darobin: the big problem is the fact that it's W3C licensed so it can't just be merged into WHATWG, AFAIK
  402. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> darobin retains copyright on what he authored
  403. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> anyway, let's please not get into that, I think
  404. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> not right now
  405. # [11:18] <darobin> gsnedders: don't ask questions you don't want the response to
  406. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> heh
  407. # [11:19] <darobin> under French law I cannot cede my copyright to anyone, actually
  408. # [11:19] <darobin> so I can do whatever I want with the text I wrote
  409. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> you'll be in NYC
  410. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> you can get a gun!
  411. # [11:19] <darobin> hahaha
  412. # [11:19] <darobin> don't give me bad ideas :)
  413. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> "enforce" your copyright
  414. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> heh
  415. # [11:19] <gsnedders> yes, /you/ retain copyright, but the only license I can get what you wrote under is the one provided by the W3C
  416. # [11:20] <darobin> gsnedders: not to mention the fact that the ruby text was produced CC-BY
  417. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> darobin: seriously I don't think there's any rush on this. Except that after neglecting use for a long time, gsnedders is back and just wants everything his way from now on
  418. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> *us/me
  419. # [11:20] <darobin> gsnedders: honestly, don't worry your pretty head about copyright
  420. # [11:21] <darobin> I'll move the text; if there's a problem it'll all be my fault
  421. # [11:21] <darobin> we'll cross that bridge when we get there
  422. # [11:21] <darobin> (and I live within walking distance of a gun shop)
  423. # [11:21] <darobin> MikeSmith: yeah, I doubt there's a rush but I would still really like to get to a complete defork
  424. # [11:21] <darobin> ruby's one big chunk of that
  425. # [11:22] <gsnedders> yeah, I basically want everything done my way now I'm starting to pick all this stuff up again after years :P
  426. # [11:22] <darobin> good, good
  427. # [11:22] <darobin> I support that
  428. # [11:23] * hsivonen wonders if non-UTF-8 encoders in browser need to be fast
  429. # [11:24] <gsnedders> hsivonen: encoders? for stuff like forms?
  430. # [11:27] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yes. also URLs
  431. # [11:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders: hmm. does XHR support non-UTF encoders still, too?
  432. # [11:29] <hsivonen> supporting serializing XML to anything other than UTF-8 is a really bad, but sadly common, idea
  433. # [11:30] <hsivonen> example: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/XALANJ-2419 Xalan's UTF-8 output is broken thanks to its attempt to support non-UTF-8 output
  434. # [11:30] <hsivonen> I filed that bug in January 2008
  435. # [11:31] <hsivonen> still not fixed
  436. # [11:31] <hsivonen> meanwhile, I've written my own UTF-8-only XML serializer and moved on
  437. # [11:36] <darobin> hsivonen: is it still done a lot even in browsers?
  438. # [11:36] <darobin> it's been a while since I've seen that in any code tbh
  439. # [11:38] <annevk> hsivonen: only URLs and <form>, not XMLHttpRequest
  440. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/UzEE/status/638282373235384320 "Its 2015 and its sad that @w3c still hasn't come up with a standard way to allow #localStorage to be shared across domains/sub-domains." That could be read as saying, "...and it's good that they haven't"
  441. # [11:41] <annevk> hsivonen: parsing XML without the Encoding Standard is actually undefined territory since a lot of legacy encodings don't define errors... I mentioned this once to the XML folks, but they didn't care much
  442. # [11:42] <philipj> MikeSmith: regarding merge commits, I don't mind them, but I don't have the context of the discussion you were having
  443. # [11:47] <hsivonen> darobin: looking at the Gecko source, it seems that our XHR always uses UTF-8. Hooray.
  444. # [11:48] * hsivonen has a vague recollection it wasn't always this way
  445. # [11:48] <gsnedders> Do we have any spec defining stuff around the DOM and XSLT? AFAICT not?
  446. # [11:48] <darobin> yeah, ISTR encoding issues with XHR but from a *long* time ago
  447. # [11:48] <darobin> gsnedders: there's a bug for that :)
  448. # [11:48] <darobin> but no, no one did the work for XSLT
  449. # [11:49] <gsnedders> This is, of course, hardly surprising. It's XSLT. :)
  450. # [11:51] <annevk> hsivonen: correct, we used to use inputEncoding or some such for serializing documents
  451. # [11:51] <annevk> hsivonen: I think per some research from hallvors we opted to remove that
  452. # [11:51] <hsivonen> annevk: cool
  453. # [11:52] <hsivonen> annevk: well, for now, I'll assume that encode needs to be fast
  454. # [11:52] <hsivonen> annevk: if we later find that it's OK for encode to be slower, we can rewrite code
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  456. # [11:52] <annevk> hsivonen: I think it's okay for non-utf-8-encode to be slow personally
  457. # [11:52] <annevk> hsivonen: we already flag such pages in the console
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  459. # [11:53] <annevk> hsivonen: and it'll only hit them for certain URLs and whenever they use <form>
  460. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> philipj: I wasn't advocating for merge commits. But anyway we already have a prohibition on doing them for this repo, so I think we're good.
  461. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> philipj: also, please review my preload patch ;)
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  464. # [12:00] <philipj> MikeSmith: preload, huh?
  465. # [12:00] <philipj> I'll see if I can get to that tomorrow
  466. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> philipj: k
  467. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> (it's a minor change; shouldn't take much time to review, but no rush)
  468. # [12:05] <hsivonen> annevk: hmm. maybe I should save space after all, then
  469. # [12:05] <philipj> MikeSmith: ah, that fix
  470. # [12:05] <philipj> MikeSmith: I'll take a look now
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  472. # [12:05] <annevk> philipj: are you planning on PR'ing all your own bugs?
  473. # [12:07] <philipj> annevk: I plan to spend some time looking at open bugs, sure, but my feelings will not be hurt if someone else fixes bugs I've filed
  474. # [12:07] <philipj> and at most I could probably spend an hour or two per day
  475. # [12:08] <annevk> Domenic: I use your merge script, but it's rather weird as sometimes it does the cleanest merge possible: https://github.com/whatwg/html/commit/882803c4cc8fba2fa5472b76f628d95cc82c421d and sometimes it does this: https://github.com/whatwg/html/commit/bbccfc976754def0c187ac8ce5891d2fb20dfc15
  476. # [12:09] <annevk> Domenic: I committed both...
  477. # [12:12] <annevk> Domenic: I filed https://github.com/github/github-services/issues/1086 on shorter tweets
  478. # [12:17] <hsivonen> annevk: regarding https://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#index-big5-pointer, are there other duplicate entries where the encoder should pick the *first* entry?
  479. # [12:17] <annevk> hsivonen: 4 others
  480. # [12:18] <annevk> iirc
  481. # [12:18] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. It would be nice to add a note that there are other duplicates where you want the first entry
  482. # [12:18] <hsivonen> annevk: to avoid an implementor just searching everything backwards
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  484. # [12:20] <annevk> hsivonen: I was hoping the implication that it was special was obvious due to nothing else having this special case, but I'll add a note
  485. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> philipj: Thanks (for the review and push)
  486. # [12:23] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  487. # [12:23] <annevk> https://github.com/whatwg/encoding/commit/ce4e83d0df5b5efec0697fc76e66699737e033a3
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  492. # [12:32] <annevk> Domenic: oh, perhaps it only happens when the commit is based on the current master...
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  494. # [12:42] <annevk> MikeSmith: when I ln source and then run ./build.sh it seems source ends up being copied somehow?
  495. # [12:44] <annevk> Now I get Parse Error: (61067,67) unexpected end tag
  496. # [12:44] <annevk> So something went wrong...
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  499. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: maybe, but I'm on from my mobile atm, and can check when I get back home in ~45 minutes
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  501. # [12:47] <annevk> I found it, mkwst made a typo somewhere
  502. # [12:47] <mkwst> Impossible!
  503. # [12:48] <annevk> And I didn't catch it because I wasn't yet building
  504. # [12:48] <mkwst> I'm still not building. So, my fault.
  505. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> that typo... doesn't sound like our mkwst
  506. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> this one must be an imposter
  507. # [12:51] <mkwst> no, I typo all the time. vim's spellchecker is horrible so I don't use it.
  508. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> check his gpg key
  509. # [12:51] <mkwst> If you get a GPG key, you _know_ it's not me.
  510. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> there's a way to hook in better spell checking in vim
  511. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> heh
  512. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> I'm pretty sure I got my vim set up with decent spell checking
  513. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> z= zg
  514. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> The suggestions I get from z= are usually ok
  515. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> and I don't get tons of false positives
  516. # [12:55] <annevk> Both PRs contained a typo
  517. # [12:56] <mkwst> annevk: Sorry. :/
  518. # [12:56] <annevk> No worries, glad I found out now
  519. # [12:56] <annevk> And it's my fault since I merged them
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  521. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> yup
  522. # [12:58] <mkwst> CC me on the PR? Just so I know what I broke?
  523. # [12:59] <annevk> mkwst: sure, I'll clean it up in an hour
  524. # [12:59] * annevk has to go for a bit
  525. # [12:59] <mkwst> ok. tell me what I broke, I'll send you a PR?
  526. # [12:59] <botie> will do
  527. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32309156/activate-browser-tab-using-html5-notification
  528. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> beverloo: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32309156/activate-browser-tab-using-html5-notification
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  532. # [13:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: mentioned something, haven't actually tested it through
  533. # [13:35] <annevk> though*
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  535. # [13:37] <smaug____> has there be any work on standardizing popup blocking
  536. # [13:38] <smaug____> like, when can one open a new window and so
  537. # [13:38] <annevk> smaug____: yeah
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  539. # [13:42] <smaug____> s/be/been/
  540. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks
  541. # [13:45] <annevk> smaug____: you want https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/#allowed-to-show-a-popup
  542. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'm back home now, and can help you with build problems if you're still having anyy
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  544. # [13:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: if I create a ln to another file, it seems after running the build script it's no longer an ln, but an actual file
  545. # [13:47] <annevk> MikeSmith: that's somewhat annoying since then I can't run the script multiple times without first removing the file and creating a new link
  546. # [13:47] * MikeSmith looks in his own working directory
  547. # [13:47] <smaug____> ah, thanks
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  549. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> annevk: I don't see that behavior in my environment. I have symlinks set up and they don't get overwritten no matter how many times I build
  550. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> anyway I will write up a patch for this tonight hopefully
  551. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> then you can please help test that
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  553. # [13:51] <annevk> https://github.com/whatwg/html-build/issues/6 issue with caniuse integration
  554. # [13:52] <annevk> it seems the downloaded caniuse.json is input for wattsi, so maybe I should have filed the bug there...
  555. # [13:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: where you talking about palpable elements the other day?
  556. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> yeah
  557. # [13:53] * annevk just found <!-- XXX this index doesn't list the palpable elements -->
  558. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> wrote a minor patch to add info to the spec
  559. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> yeah, saw that
  560. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> too
  561. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> I can add whatever's needed there, I guess (or try; I haven't looked yet at what it needs)
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  567. # [14:21] <annevk> MikeSmith: does your html-build patch move the output elsewhere?
  568. # [14:21] <annevk> MikeSmith: or should I add unicode.xml, caniuse.json, cldr.inc, etc. to .gitignore too?
  569. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: I could make a patch that moves the output elsewhere, but I wasn't planning to move it. Was planning to just keep it where it is now
  570. # [14:24] <annevk> seems fine to me
  571. # [14:24] <annevk> I'll add more stuff to .gitignore
  572. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> yup
  573. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> sounds good
  574. # [14:25] <zcorpan> annevk: Domenic: philipj: is it intentional that your emails are not listed in html's acks?
  575. # [14:25] <annevk> zcorpan: dunno, ask Hixie
  576. # [14:25] <philipj> Domenic: I don't think it's intentional
  577. # [14:26] <philipj> It doesn't matter to me if it listed or not, but I also noticed the difference
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  584. # [14:37] <zcorpan> Domenic: is d@domenic.me your preferred email? and do you object to it being in the spec's acks?
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  589. # [14:41] <annevk> zcorpan: see https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#acks
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  592. # [14:44] <zcorpan> thx. i'll just push this change without a PR
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  605. # [15:05] <mkwst> Also, since I'm adding things to HTML: how do y'all feel about https://mikewest.github.io/credentialmanagement/writeonly/#examples-signin?
  606. # [15:05] <mkwst> Or is the answer "File a bug"? :)
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  611. # [15:08] <annevk> mkwst: still not entirely clear to me whether that's worth the complexity, but yes, we can triage bugs
  612. # [15:09] <mkwst> annevk: I'm adding opaque FormData elements to CREDENTIAL based on the discussion at https://github.com/w3c/webappsec/issues/241. Seems like a short hop to writeonly fields. *shrug* I'll file a bug.
  613. # [15:10] <annevk> mkwst: perhaps I'm not understanding you
  614. # [15:10] <annevk> mkwst: what would be the alternative to an issue?
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  617. # [15:11] <mkwst> Now I'm not understanding you. "alternative to an issue"? I'm happy to file a bug, that's a totally reasonable way to reboot the discussion.
  618. # [15:12] <annevk> mkwst: I wasn't sure what other answer you might be expecting
  619. # [15:12] <mkwst> annevk: "Yes! It's such a good idea, I'll grab the spec you wrote and backport the monkey patches myself right now!"?
  620. # [15:13] <annevk> mkwst: I see, hah
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  623. # [15:16] <mkwst> So... that's not what you're saying, I guess? :)
  624. # [15:17] <annevk> mkwst: I think the main problem with the credential management API is lack of interest from other vendors, coupled with it not really solving federation well
  625. # [15:18] <annevk> mkwst: note that I'm not sure how to address either of those :-(
  626. # [15:18] <mkwst> annevk: Vendor interest will work itself out, one way or another. Federation is a hard problem.
  627. # [15:19] <mkwst> annevk: I don't know how to solve it completely and well. I do know how to solve a small piece of it that seems like it would have real value in terms of allowing users to avoid the "NASCAR"-style choosers on pages.
  628. # [15:19] <mkwst> annevk: But folks don't seem to like that proposal.
  629. # [15:20] <mkwst> annevk: Or, the three people who are engaging on the list don't like it. Not sure how well that scales to everyone; I know random folks on Google's identity team are standing on my neck about it. :)
  630. # [15:20] <annevk> I guess it would be a little bit more compelling if we had some content teams chime in
  631. # [15:21] <annevk> E.g., GitHub seems to say it doesn't work for them, but maybe Stack Exchange would adopt this immediately?
  632. # [15:21] <annevk> Also, do we have stats now on how often the cookie clearing happens affecting such scenarios?
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  637. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> mkwst: your latest e-mail summarizes it all aptly
  638. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> will be interesting to see what responses you get to that
  639. # [15:34] <mkwst> annevk: I know that ~11% of Chrome users that opted into metrics clear cookies on a weekly basis.
  640. # [15:34] <mkwst> annevk: as I noted on the other thread, I don't have any more detail than that. Nor do I really know how I'd get it...
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  642. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> ~11% is a relatively huge number
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  645. # [15:36] <mkwst> 11.8% last week.
  646. # [15:37] <mkwst> I wonder if I can get historical information on this... my recollection is that it's been pretty constant. If users have learned anything at all about privacy on the web, it's "Clear cookies! All the time! Twice, even, just to be sure!"
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  648. # [15:38] <mkwst> All I have is a raw counter. It's interesting, though: the counter is 5x the number of users. So this set of users is really clearing cookies _often_.
  649. # [15:40] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Dunno. I just want to ship the pieces that solve the problems I care about. I feel like doing that in an iterative fashion is reasonable. It's just not clear to me what the MVP actually is.
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  651. # [15:41] <annevk> mkwst: I guess the other number that's interesting is how many have stored passwords and how often those are cleared (if ever)
  652. # [15:42] <mkwst> 3.04% of users check the "passwords" box when clearing browsing data.
  653. # [15:42] <mkwst> or, more accurately, 3.04% of users cleared passwords in the last week.
  654. # [15:42] <mkwst> (where "users" === "users who have opted into sharing statistics", etc)
  655. # [15:42] <annevk> so this is a feature for the remaining 8%?
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  657. # [15:43] <annevk> I wonder what the numbers of Firefox are
  658. # [15:43] <mkwst> Cookies are fragile. *shrug* We lose them for all sorts of reasons unrelated to user intention.
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  660. # [15:44] <annevk> Really?
  661. # [15:45] <mkwst> The login team has some numbers I don't actually remember about how often users log in without explicitly logging out. It was higher than I expected.
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  674. # [16:33] <Domenic> MikeSmith: mkwst: Travis is a no-go because we need to maintain local caches/built copies of stuff
  675. # [16:33] * Domenic is still reading scrollback
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  677. # [16:34] <mkwst> Hrm? Travis can pull things down to do a clean build, right?
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  679. # [16:36] <wanderview> mkwst: maybe they have the setting to clear cookies on browser close?
  680. # [16:37] <mkwst> wanderview: I think that's probably included in the counter, sure. But I'd be surprised if that was a significant percentage.
  681. # [16:37] <mkwst> wanderview: I wonder if we track that. Give me a minute.
  682. # [16:37] <wanderview> it was just a thought... or an addon to clear cookies on a regular interval
  683. # [16:41] <wanderview> I wish there was a way to follow significant changes to the html spec and easily hide smaller editorial changes
  684. # [16:41] <wanderview> it seems people have been waiting to change the html spec for a while
  685. # [16:42] <mkwst> wanderview: Something like 0.3% of users have the "session only" setting toggled. So it's probably a contributing factor, but not a huge one.
  686. # [16:42] <Domenic> mkwst: yes. That's the problem. It would do a clean build (~45 minutes) each time
  687. # [16:43] <mkwst> Domenic: ...
  688. # [16:43] <Domenic> mkwst: after we get the separate-directories thing straightened out complete builds should be ~2 minutes
  689. # [16:43] <Domenic> but it's incremental
  690. # [16:43] <mkwst> Domenic: I'd say that a ~45 minute build is the problem.
  691. # [16:43] <Domenic> it reuses caches and checkouts from the previous commits
  692. # [16:43] <mkwst> I'd say that a ~2 minute build is a problem. :)
  693. # [16:43] <Domenic> yes, well, it's 8 MB source
  694. # [16:43] <Domenic> maybe it's faster on a Z620
  695. # [16:44] <mkwst> Chrome is a bit more than 8 MB, and it builds in a half hour on my mac mini at home. :)
  696. # [16:44] <annevk> Domenic: it only takes 5min to run the build script here
  697. # [16:44] <mkwst> maybe 45m.
  698. # [16:44] <annevk> Domenic: actually, prolly less
  699. # [16:44] <Domenic> annevk: right, that's an incremental build. No need to svn checkout, rebuild all the caches, etc.
  700. # [16:44] <annevk> Domenic: ah
  701. # [16:44] <Domenic> Also the demo CURLing has spiked the time a bit
  702. # [16:45] <Domenic> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/30
  703. # [16:45] <mkwst> Domenic: have you considered caching some of the dependencies directly in the repo? I mean, caniuse doesn't change that often, right?
  704. # [16:45] <Sebmaster> annevk: is url's path reset somewhere when the parser encounters a windows drive letter?
  705. # [16:45] <mkwst> Ah, yeah. Same as that bug. :)
  706. # [16:46] <Domenic> mkwst: caniuse changes surprisingly often I think. But yeah I think for people besides the official build server we should have more cache type things
  707. # [16:46] <annevk> Sebmaster: for override you mean?
  708. # [16:46] <Domenic> mkwst: part of your "don't do everything every time" issue in some ways
  709. # [16:46] <annevk> Sebmaster: that might not be covered
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  711. # [16:47] <annevk> Sebmaster: never mind, it is
  712. # [16:47] <Sebmaster> annevk: no i mean if you have if you have a file:C:\test parsing against a base of file:///tmp/var/
  713. # [16:47] <annevk> Sebmaster: it should simply not copy base's path
  714. # [16:47] <Sebmaster> ah i see
  715. # [16:47] <Sebmaster> I'll need to find where i do that then
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  721. # [16:58] <Sebmaster> sweet, got it, thanks annevk
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  724. # [17:06] <Domenic> OK, caught up on email, time to eat breakfast... then a day to spend on the build script.
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  730. # [17:26] <wanderview> annevk_: is it reasonable for a 404 html response page to register a service worker?
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  734. # [17:27] <annevk> wanderview: yeah
  735. # [17:27] <wanderview> interesting, ok
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  750. # [17:51] <zcorpan> annevk: so the spec changes that were done in ResponsiveImagesCG is cc0. the comment in the source saying so is not preserved
  751. # [17:52] <annevk> zcorpan: I'm not sure how you could tell what are changes and what are not
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  753. # [17:53] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah dunno
  754. # [17:53] <annevk> zcorpan: that would be helped by the commit log
  755. # [17:54] <annevk> zcorpan: we should maybe address that in the Acknowledgments section?
  756. # [17:54] <annevk> zcorpan: that might also be a better place for the history of that section
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  758. # [17:56] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah. we can work on that as a separate change
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  761. # [17:58] <annevk> speaking of which, it would be nice if any new contributions to the HTML Standard were CC0
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  774. # [18:26] <annevk> Domenic: apparently you can also turn an issue into a PR
  775. # [18:26] <annevk> Domenic: but you need GitHub command line tools for that
  776. # [18:27] <Domenic> annevk: yeah, I find that a bit meh too; I like having PRs close issues. *shrug*
  777. # [18:27] <annevk> I see
  778. # [18:27] <annevk> I thought it was rather cool when someone did that to me
  779. # [18:27] <Domenic> heh
  780. # [18:27] <Domenic> OK so I'm going to try the picture stuff
  781. # [18:28] <annevk> Domenic: zcorpan is trying to merge
  782. # [18:28] <Domenic> oh ok then
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  784. # [18:28] <Domenic> let me know when it's time ot update the build script
  785. # [18:28] <annevk> Domenic: he hasn't done the clean merging yet so seems like a good opportunity
  786. # [18:28] <zcorpan> yeah i've only push left to do, assuming i got the rest right
  787. # [18:28] <annevk> Domenic: apparently git push upstream doesn't work
  788. # [18:28] <annevk> Domenic: should that just be "git push"
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  790. # [18:29] <Domenic> annevk: it depends what you named your remote. Mike named his upstream I think
  791. # [18:29] <zcorpan> i'm doing this from whatwg/html, not from a fork
  792. # [18:29] <Domenic> then yeah git push === git push origin should work
  793. # [18:29] <zcorpan> k
  794. # [18:29] <Domenic> (origin is the default remote name)
  795. # [18:30] <annevk> Domenic: you merge on your remote? interesting
  796. # [18:30] <annevk> so much to learn
  797. # [18:30] <Domenic> oh no i just push to it
  798. # [18:30] <Domenic> I think
  799. # [18:30] <zcorpan> there we are
  800. # [18:30] <Domenic> I pretty extensively use a GUI to visualize the tree tbh
  801. # [18:30] <Domenic> nice zcorpan
  802. # [18:31] <Domenic> I'll do the build merge
  803. # [18:31] <annevk> it seems it did lose the PR connection
  804. # [18:31] <zcorpan> thanks for the pr thing Domenic
  805. # [18:31] <Domenic> annevk: yeah gotta force-push to the appropriate branch after the rebase. Which is actually kind of hairy when someone else created the branch so you don't have a local copy yet. Probably not worth the trouble.
  806. # [18:32] <tantek> ^^^ lol git
  807. # [18:32] <zcorpan> -_-
  808. # [18:32] <Domenic> just read the man pages http://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/
  809. # [18:33] <tantek> "just" :)
  810. # [18:33] <Domenic> tantek: click the link. and refresh a few times ;)
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  812. # [18:33] <zcorpan> i'll go running instead. that i know how to do
  813. # [18:33] <tantek> zcorpan++ I'm right there with you.
  814. # [18:33] <tantek> Domenic: ah, a js;dr page I see ;)
  815. # [18:34] <Domenic> tantek: stop trying to make js;dr happen. it's not going to happen.
  816. # [18:34] <tantek> ok that's pretty amazing
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  820. # [18:38] <tantek> zcorpan: next f2f meeting, bring your running shoes and come running with Rossen and me.
  821. # [18:38] <zcorpan> tantek: sure. if i forget the shoes i can run barefoot :-)
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  824. # [18:40] <zcorpan> i've run 10k on tarmac/gravel on 52 mins (but my feet needed some recovery after that)
  825. # [18:41] <tantek> ouch. you must have some serious callouses!
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  827. # [18:42] <Domenic> annevk: going to just merge https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7 mk?
  828. # [18:42] <tantek> you'll be good competition for Rossen then, I'll catch up eventually.
  829. # [18:42] <Domenic> I think we should prioritize load time over issue filing.
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  831. # [18:42] <annevk> Domenic: you mean the other way around?
  832. # [18:42] <Domenic> annevk: defer prioritizes load time
  833. # [18:43] <Domenic> annevk: and I think we should keep it that way
  834. # [18:43] <Domenic> Relatedly, we should do this https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25943
  835. # [18:43] <annevk> Domenic: anyway, it's fine
  836. # [18:43] <zcorpan> tantek: i have thick skin from walking barefoot on gravel on a daily basis
  837. # [18:43] <annevk> Domenic: I'd like to audit our scripts at some point, but this is not the time
  838. # [18:43] <Domenic> annevk: agreed
  839. # [18:44] <Domenic> Oh, I need to set up the PDF stuff today
  840. # [18:45] <annevk> Ah yeah, would be good to reply to them
  841. # [18:45] <Domenic> I am glad we're keeping number of open PRs low
  842. # [18:45] <Domenic> I think a good goal for any project is zero open PRs even if many open issues.
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  844. # [18:47] <Domenic> Hmm https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#dependencies-2 seems kind of out of place
  845. # [18:48] <annevk> Domenic: yeah, <picture> is not done
  846. # [18:48] <annevk> Domenic: that first commit was just doing what the build script does
  847. # [18:48] <Domenic> Maybe add a checklist to https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/52
  848. # [18:48] <annevk> Domenic: or did I miss something the build script does?
  849. # [18:48] <annevk> sure
  850. # [18:49] <Domenic> annevk: nah I think that was it
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  852. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> Domenic: fwiw after reading https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/58#issuecomment-136397127 I agree with you completely
  853. # [18:50] <Domenic> cool :)
  854. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> until I read that, I just didn't know that's what y'all had been doing
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  963. # [22:00] <Domenic> annevk: thanks for catching me on acks. I will try to do better in the future!
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  966. # [22:07] <annevk> Domenic: no problem
  967. # [22:08] <annevk> Domenic: any reason we can't start using utf-8 in the source? I guess Hixie had some reason for keeping it ASCII-clean
  968. # [22:08] <Domenic> annevk: yeah no idea, I just stuck with existing convention
  969. # [22:09] <gsnedders> annevk: dev.w3.org at least used to be a problem, and getting it to reliably send any charset was hard
  970. # [22:09] <gsnedders> annevk: that's the reason why it stayed ASCII-onyl
  971. # [22:09] <annevk> hmm, if that's the only reason we can move, but we should maybe ask Hixie to be sure
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  976. # [22:14] <zcorpan> i just realized that it was about 10 years ago i sent my first email to whatwg. https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2005Jun/0099.html
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  981. # [22:25] <zcorpan> next 10 years, guys!
  982. # [22:34] <gsnedders> annevk: certainly in my days developing Anolis that was it
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  984. # [22:40] <jamesr___> zcorpan: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2005Jun/0109.html is a pretty good idea
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  986. # [22:40] <zcorpan> jamesr___: one part of the proposal was adopted :-)
  987. # [22:41] <jamesr___> the better part
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