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# Session Start: Wed Feb 11 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #accessibility
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# [00:39] <@firebot> New Firefox - Keyboard Navigation bug 1131844 filed by johan.charlez@gmail.com.
# [00:40] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1131844 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Can't close tab with ctrl+w on Youtube when video is focused.
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# [01:09] <smaug> tbsaunde: do we need to IPC-fy any of the AccessibilityFooEvent interfaces?
# [01:11] <smaug> hmm, it is not yet clear to me what nsIAccessibleFooEvents are meant for
# [01:11] <smaug> looking
# [01:14] <smaug> I see
# [01:15] <tbsaunde> smaug: to tell the platform what a11y stuff has happened and yes
# [01:15] <tbsaunde> smaug: basically we need to make the SendEvent message more useful
# [01:16] <tbsaunde> split into several messages
# [01:16] <smaug> I don't see accessible-event being used a lot
# [01:16] <smaug> I guess the documentation isn't quite right
# [01:16] <tbsaunde> we already have SendShowEvent and SendHideEvent for nsIAccessible{Show,Hide}Event so cache of tree in parent is kept up to date
# [01:17] <smaug> ah, I guess I misunderstood the comment in nsIAccessibleEvent.idl
# [01:17] <tbsaunde> smaug: see AccessibleWrap::HandleAccEvent
# [01:18] <smaug> that is dealing AccEvent
# [01:19] <tbsaunde> smaug: I guess that comment is kind of wrong but mostly useless, there isn't any real in process consumer other than tests
# [01:19] <tbsaunde> smaug: ok sure, but nsIAccessible*Event is a thin wrapper around AccEvent
# [01:20] <smaug> so far haven't found where that wrapper lives..
# [01:20] <smaug> looking
# [01:20] <tbsaunde> smaug: its autogenerated by AccEventGen.py
# [01:20] <smaug> oh
# [01:20] <smaug> any idea why AccEvent but nsIAccessibleEvent
# [01:21] <smaug> this naming is a bit confusing ;)
# [01:21] <smaug> with all the wrappers and proxies
# [01:21] <smaug> and don't take my complains too seriously
# [01:21] <tbsaunde> smaug: yeah, well it is kind of useful to know what people who aren't used to it think
# [01:23] <smaug> cases like class HyperTextAccessible : public AccessibleWrap
# [01:23] <tbsaunde> smaug: I guess AccEvent was nice and short, but nobody cared to rename all things to nsIAccFoo
# [01:24] <smaug> so are we dealing there some Accessible object or wrapper of such or what
# [01:24] <tbsaunde> smaug: AccessibleWrap is a class implemented by platform specific stuff to customize Accessible per platform
# [01:25] <tbsaunde> it ... is not a great design, but its old and nobodies felt like fixing it
# [01:25] <tbsaunde> it also kind of works reasonably for windows
# [01:25] <smaug> I see
# [01:28] <tbsaunde> though working well for windows kind of stops when e10s enters the picture
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# [01:31] * smaug doesn't see nsIAccessibleEvent implementations to wrap AccEvent
# [01:33] <tbsaunde> smaug: see AcEventGen.py
# [01:33] <smaug> tbsaunde: I'm looking at the generated code
# [01:33] <smaug> no member variables like AccEvent
# [01:34] <smaug> in the generated classes
# [01:34] <tbsaunde> smaug: I think it copies the members of AccEvent?
# [01:35] <smaug> yeah, looks like it is like a xpc-clone or some such
# [01:35] <smaug> not really a wrapper
# [01:35] <smaug> a11y::MakeXPCEvent
# [01:35] <tbsaunde> smaug: sure, clone is more accurate I guess
# [01:36] * tbsaunde thinks the difference here is a little pedantic
# [01:37] <smaug> tbsaunde: not for someone hacking DOM Events, where DOMEvent wraps WidgetEvent ;)
# [01:37] <smaug> tbsaunde: but the C++ implementation uses AccEvents, and only JS needs the generated stuff?
# [01:38] <smaug> and jsat
# [01:39] <tbsaunde> smaug: yeah, only js needs generated stuff
# [01:40] <tbsaunde> jsat is 1 js, and 2 is has a different setup for e10s because it wants to work on b2g already
# [01:41] <smaug> right
# [01:41] <smaug> but we don't want to break it when dealing with e10s-desktop
# [01:44] <tbsaunde> smaug: true
# [01:44] <tbsaunde> I think we'd probably have to go out of our way to do that though
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# [14:13] <&MarcoZ> Good morning yzen!
# [14:13] <@yzen> MarcoZ hi there !
# [14:14] <&MarcoZ> Can't wait until bug 1125422 lis merged, and is ported to 2.2 as well!
# [14:14] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1125422 — NEW, bugmail.mozilla@staktrace.com — [AccessFu] Touch and mouse events are not blocked from content
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# [14:53] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Resolution on bug 1125422 from --- to FIXED.
# [14:53] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 1125422 from NEW to RESOLVED.
# [14:53] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com set status-firefox38 to fixed on bug 1125422.
# [14:53] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 1125422 from --- to mozilla38.
# [14:53] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1125422 — FIXED, bugmail.mozilla@staktrace.com — [AccessFu] Touch and mouse events are not blocked from content
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# [15:26] <~davidb> heyo
# [15:27] <@yzen> MarcoZ looks like it is now, will soon get to 2.2 :)
# [15:28] <&MarcoZ> yzen: Yay!
# [15:33] <&MarcoZ> Heyo davidb!
# [15:33] <&MarcoZ> davidb: Another one for barrier smash: Bug 1132036.
# [15:33] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1132036 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Make all items in the Navigation toolbar keyboard focusable
# [15:33] <~davidb> MarcoZ, awesome, can you go ahead and edit https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/BarrierSmash/Meetings/2015-02-11
# [15:49] <&MarcoZ> davidb: Done.
# [15:49] <~davidb> thank you!
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# [17:21] <@firebot> bugmail.mozilla@staktrace.com set status-b2g-v3.0 to fixed on bug 1125422.
# [17:21] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1125422 — FIXED, bugmail.mozilla@staktrace.com — [AccessFu] Touch and mouse events are not blocked from content
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# [17:30] <~davidb> surkov, we're on
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# [17:38] <~davidb> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/BarrierSmash/Meetings/2015-02-11
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# [18:28] <smaug> nsIAccessible::help seems to be useless
# [18:39] <smaug> should screenreader tell about accesskey on an html element?
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# [18:53] <@surkov> smaug: help is presented in desktop apis, I guess we keep it just incase if one day we get something on the web to map into it
# [18:53] <tbsaunde> smaug: I think there some api for them to get access key yeah
# [18:56] <Gijs> davidb: also, I think Unfocused might potentially be interested in helping with barriersmash :)
# [18:56] <smaug> tbsaunde: trying to figure out what to implement and if I can actually test the stuff
# [18:57] <~davidb> Gijs, brilliant
# [18:57] <smaug> value seems to be another property which atk doesn't use
# [18:57] <smaug> but mac and win do
# [18:57] <~davidb> Gijs, i'm guessing not via meeting attendance
# [18:58] <~davidb> (5:30am for him)
# [18:58] <tbsaunde> smaug: I'd think nsIAccessibleText stuff would be a good candidate
# [18:58] <smaug> tbsaunde: I'll start with something simple, value it is for now even if I can't test it :)
# [18:59] <Gijs> davidb: err... yeah, likely not :)
# [18:59] <smaug> need to start writing actual patches
# [18:59] <smaug> that is the only way to learn this
# [18:59] <tbsaunde> smaug: k, I actually don't think text will be compicated
# [18:59] <smaug> k
# [18:59] <smaug> will do that next
# [19:00] <tbsaunde> that said in the long term I think caching text in the parent process should be strongly considered
# [19:00] <~davidb> tbsaunde, yeah
# [19:00] <tbsaunde> but I bet it'd be a couple solid months of work
# [19:03] <smaug> tbsaunde: do we currently know in a11y code if DOM has changed, so if text might have changed?
# [19:05] <smaug> also, deciding what to cache should be based on profiles and actual timing information what is slow
# [19:05] <smaug> the less we have sync parent->child, the better
# [19:06] <smaug> surkov: tbsaunde: can I use Mozilla coding style in new a11y code?
# [19:07] <tbsaunde> smaug: we should know if text changes (there is events for that)
# [19:07] <@surkov> smaug: I’d say we should have common code style, but what change do you keep in mind?
# [19:07] <smaug> always using {} with if/for/while/etc
# [19:07] <@surkov> I see, I’d say up to you
# [19:07] <tbsaunde> smaug: the bigger problem is that layout's word / line navigation stuff is used to break up words
# [19:08] <tbsaunde> and of course actual data would be good that's why I said considered ;)
# [19:09] <smaug> surkov: ok, I'll use Mozilla coding style everywhere then
# [19:09] <smaug> I wonder if I could convince poiru to go through also a11y code to make it use the normal coding style
# [19:10] <joanie> smaug: if you're running out of AtkText bugs, I could start filing some. ;) Orca still has many hacks for bogus AtkText results from Gecko.
# [19:10] <@surkov> I sortof like having no braces around single if etc
# [19:10] <~davidb> (I have to say, I am thrilled about {}'s !)
# [19:11] <~davidb> (especially if I ever write a patch again ;)
# [19:12] <smaug> surkov: I like consistency, so always {}, and even more important is the consistency with the rest of the codebase, IMO
# [19:12] * tbsaunde is meh, but blank lines are basically manditory
# [19:12] <smaug> (next I'll need to convince JS folks to give up with their odd coding style ;) )
# [19:12] <@surkov> I like consistency too but in this case I like these things both :)
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# [19:13] <@surkov> and I’m not sure which one more
# [19:13] <smaug> the more I've reviewed code, the more I want consistency in coding style in Gecko
# [19:13] <@surkov> I bet
# [19:13] <@surkov> I get too rare out of a11y so it doens’t hit me too much
# [19:14] <@surkov> anyway
# [19:14] <@surkov> I think I won’t fight for no braces rule
# [19:14] <smaug> k
# [19:15] <@surkov> but I find it nice :)
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# [19:23] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1132134 filed by bugs@pettay.fi.
# [19:23] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1132134 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Get Accessible value from the child process
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# [19:27] <~davidb_> tbsaunde, what time is your interview today?
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# [19:29] <joanie> speaking of misc bugs, I've got a test case which spews errors like (firefox:2627): GLib-GObject-WARNING **: gsignal.c:3410: signal name 'text-remove::system' is invalid for instance '0x7f5016e8da10' of type 'MaiAtkType25'
# [19:29] <joanie> I assume MaiFoo is Gecko?
# [19:30] <tbsaunde> davidb_: 15:00
# [19:30] <~davidb_> ack
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# [19:30] <tbsaunde> joanie: yeah
# [19:31] * joanie tries to make a quicker version of the test case suitable for filing a bug
# [19:31] <tbsaunde> let me go relearn that weird code to create those gobject class name things
# [19:31] <joanie> hehe
# [19:31] <joanie> you love GLib
# [19:31] <joanie> admit it
# [19:31] <joanie> :P
# [19:33] <joanie> and later, if someone really is looking for a11y bugs to fix, i'll file all the text ones I'm hacking around. I've added debugging code to spew out the instances.
# [19:33] <joanie> so running the 2.25 hours of regression tests should find plenty
# [19:34] <tbsaunde> joanie: haha
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# [19:44] <tbsaunde> joanie: would the test case for that gwarning thing include Progress meters by any chance?
# [19:45] <joanie> progress anyway
# [19:45] <joanie> not meters
# [19:45] <joanie> known issue?
# [19:46] <tbsaunde> joanie: no, just occured to me as a possible cause
# [19:47] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1132140 filed by jdiggs@igalia.com.
# [19:47] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1132140 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — WARNING spewage for text-changed signals being invalid for MaiAtkType25
# [19:47] <joanie> tbsaunde: there you go
# [19:48] <joanie> oh, I just thought of yet another bug I need to file
# [19:48] <joanie> In some cases I'm seeing an embedded object character in the accessible name of an object
# [19:48] * joanie takes some ritalin and tries to focus ;)
# [19:50] <tbsaunde> huh
# [19:51] <joanie> huh what? test case, EOCs in names, or your shock that I need Ritalin? ;)
# [19:53] <tbsaunde> joanie: eoc
# [19:54] <tbsaunde> smaug: fwiw windows stuff will be commited very shortly
# [19:54] <joanie> tbsaunde: ok, then I'll prioritize finding one of those for you
# [19:54] <tbsaunde> I didn't promise to fix it ;p just went that's weird
# [19:54] <tbsaunde> but seems like the sort of thing surkov might want to do
# [19:54] <joanie> oh, I know. That's why I've not filed the text bugs yet.
# [19:56] <tbsaunde> text is soooooooooooooooo awful :"(
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# [19:57] <tbsaunde> you fix one thing and break something else
# [19:57] <joanie> yeah, man in retrospect I'm starting to think the Apple way is the right way
# [19:57] <@surkov> it seem text bugs will outlive me :)
# [19:57] <joanie> they don't flatten anything
# [19:57] <joanie> which at first seems sucky
# [19:57] <joanie> but if you (meaning Orca) have to piece together everything any way
# [19:57] <joanie> and have to check everything because of all the bugs in the implementation
# [19:58] <tbsaunde> joanie: now you are starting to suprise me ;)
# [19:58] <joanie> then the accessible text interface and all the embedded object characters and the like are basically worthless
# [19:58] <smaug> tbsaunde: not sure what " windows stuff will be commited very shortly" means
# [19:58] <joanie> tbsaunde: I have so many (and now more, though not committed yet) sanity checks and work arounds to deal with this
# [19:59] <joanie> and in the end, it's probably faster just to ignore the bulk of AtkText,
# [19:59] <joanie> but that's a rant for another day
# [20:00] <smaug> tbsaunde: did you have any plans how to implement AccessibleText? Would DocAccessibleChild be the entry point also for all that stuff on child side?
# [20:01] <smaug> I guess so
# [20:02] <tbsaunde> smaug: yeah, I just do that for now
# [20:02] <tbsaunde> Follow TextSubstring for how to deal with interface checks
# [20:03] <tbsaunde> smaug: I have a patch implementing half of IAccessible with ipc stuff
# [20:04] <smaug> I see
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# [20:59] <@firebot> bugs@pettay.fi changed the Assignee on bug 1132134 from nobody@mozilla.org to bugs@pettay.fi.
# [20:59] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1132134 — NEW, bugs@pettay.fi — Get Accessible value from the child process
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# [22:23] <smaug> Are all the AsFoo methods in a11y safe to call even if the type is not Foo
# [22:24] <smaug> in other words, does one first need to check IsFoo() before calling AsFoo() ?
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# [22:24] <smaug> (In DOM IsFoo() is always needed before AsFoo())
# [22:24] <smaug> (which can be a bit annoying in certain cases)
# [22:25] <smaug> though, returning null would mean in DOM that the method name should be GetAsFoo()
# [22:28] <tbsaunde> smaug: I think they're all safe
# [22:29] <smaug> ok, thanks
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# [23:27] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1132223 filed by bugs@pettay.fi.
# [23:27] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1132223 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Add IdToAccessible and IdToHyperTextAccessible to DocAccessibleChild to reduce code duplication
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# Session Close: Thu Feb 12 00:00:00 2015
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