/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-10-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 05 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  24. # [02:52] <karl> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20071003#l-234
  25. # [02:52] <karl> hmm if we could drop the doctype alltogether. That would be gem.
  26. # [02:54] <karl> just having <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="fr"> would be much more fun
  27. # [02:54] <Hixie> i think html5 gets as close as we can get to that for text/html
  28. # [02:54] <Hixie> (<!DOCTYPE HTML><html lang="fr">)
  29. # [02:54] <karl> Hixie: yep. But I wish that it would be even simpler ;)
  30. # [02:54] <Hixie> yeah, me too
  31. # [02:55] <Hixie> early drafts had it just as <!DOCTYPE>, but that didn't work in all browsers :-(
  32. # [02:55] <Hixie> oh well
  33. # [02:55] <karl> life is fun :) means not perfect :p
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  41. # [04:18] * karl is reading the Ajax Mobile Workshop
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  43. # [04:20] <karl> RG: Rocco Georgi, PavingWays - Frost Ajax Library
  44. # [04:20] <karl> RG: Working on Ajax library for constrained browsers
  45. # [04:20] <karl> RG: Ajax works in many mobile browsers but JavaScript/DOM implementations vary. Existing libraries don't work in many cases
  46. # [04:20] <karl> RG: Needed a library for work on our own mobile web applications
  47. # [04:20] <karl> RG: Approach is cross browser Ajax for mobile web apps. Support the weakest browser that is capable of Ajax.
  48. # [04:20] <karl> RG: Keep it small (<3k at the moment)
  49. # [04:20] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/28-mobile-ajax-minutes
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  60. # [05:45] <karl> DC: I agree with what Jon said about One Web earlier
  61. # [05:45] <karl> ... the biggest problem we are dealing with is Mashups
  62. # [05:45] <karl> ... the browser did not anticipate mashups
  63. # [05:45] <karl> ... which creates security problems
  64. # [05:45] <karl> ... we need to get that broken browser security model fixed
  65. # [05:45] <karl> ... browser makers have not been able to go forward without consensus
  66. # [05:45] <karl> ... but the Google worker-pool solution is one exciting recent development in this area
  67. # [05:45] <karl> ... but we have to wait for IE6 to die
  68. # [05:45] <karl> ... on the other hand, in mobile, because of the shorter longevity of mobile devices, we have quicker turnaround on [getting newer browsers deployed on handsets]
  69. # [05:45] <karl> ... [DC made statement that mashups are one of the most groundbreaking changes to come in many years]
  70. # [05:45] <karl> still in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/28-mobile-ajax-minutes
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  97. # [10:42] <hsivonen> anne: Is the access control stuff something that I should use right now in validator.nu response headers?
  98. # [10:45] <anne> it's something you could use right now
  99. # [10:45] <anne> I suppose it might be useful if you want to allow cross-site access to the results
  100. # [10:47] <hsivonen> anne: is there a tutorial or do I need to understand the spec?
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  102. # [10:51] <hsivonen> hrm. is dev.w3.org down again?
  103. # [10:52] <anne> if you want to grant everyone access simply put "Access-Control:allow <*>" in your response headers
  104. # [10:52] <anne> the spec has some examples
  105. # [10:53] <hsivonen> anne: ok. thanks
  106. # [10:53] <anne> see http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/
  107. # [10:54] <hsivonen> dev.w3.org isn't responding to me
  108. # [10:55] <hsivonen> does every GET on dev.w3.org hit CVS?
  109. # [10:56] <hsivonen> would be good to have the docs cached somewhere
  110. # [10:56] <anne> no
  111. # [10:56] <anne> what I pointed to is a checked out version
  112. # [10:56] <hsivonen> ok
  113. # [10:56] <hsivonen> still not responding, though
  114. # [10:56] <anne> there's an older version on w3.org/tr/access-control/
  115. # [10:57] <hsivonen> ok
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  132. # [12:08] <olivier> hsivonen, anne, I restarted the damn server
  133. # [12:08] <olivier> it's been a daily pain in our... server farm
  134. # [12:08] <olivier> sorry about it
  135. # [12:10] <hsivonen> olivier: thanks
  136. # [12:11] <hsivonen> anne: did I understand correctly that if I want to allow cross-domain XHR POST I must first respond to a GET to the POST URI with a 2xx response?
  137. # [12:11] <hsivonen> anne: and specify both
  138. # [12:11] <hsivonen> Access-Control: allow <*>
  139. # [12:11] <hsivonen> and
  140. # [12:11] <hsivonen> Allow: POST
  141. # [12:13] <hsivonen> anne: would 204 No Content work?
  142. # [12:15] <hsivonen> anne: should I respond with 204 No Content, Allow: POST *only* if there's the If-Method-Allowed request header?
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  144. # [12:16] <anne> hsivonen, the Method-Check header is just there so you can make informed decisions about what to allow
  145. # [12:17] <anne> hsivonen, it's not a requirement that you do something with it, just like it's not a requirement that you don't do anything with Referer or Referer-Root
  146. # [12:17] <anne> (the header has been renamed from If-Method-Allowed, see dev.w3.org version)
  147. # [12:17] <anne> hsivonen, response code doesn't have any significance now, I'm not sure it should
  148. # [12:18] <anne> (so either 200 or 204 would be fine, iow)
  149. # [12:18] <mjs> why is Method-Check a header and not a method?
  150. # [12:18] <hsivonen> anne: would you recommend always responding with Allow: POST if I allow POST at the URI?
  151. # [12:18] <hsivonen> and completely disregarding Method-Check
  152. # [12:19] <hsivonen> I'm not completely clear on what the expected choreography is
  153. # [12:19] <anne> mjs, I think OPTIONS was not picked because it would be harder to author against
  154. # [12:19] <mjs> (it's hard to think of any other header where on a GET the result is never meant to be to actually retrieve the entity)
  155. # [12:19] <anne> custom methods are not very well supported in general
  156. # [12:19] <mjs> are authors expected to do a method check by hand?
  157. # [12:20] <anne> as I said, it's an informational header, there are no author requirements involved
  158. # [12:20] <anne> the response header, however, is mandatory (Allow)
  159. # [12:21] <mjs> what I'm asking is, would this header (or whatever) be something that authors should manually do in their content, or something that user agents do for them?
  160. # [12:22] <anne> Method-Check is a request header, Allow is a response header; the user agent verifies that Allow specifies something that they send out in Method-Check
  161. # [12:22] <hsivonen> anne: so if I responded with 204 plus Allow to Method-Check and with 400 to requests without Method-Check, I'd break clients?
  162. # [12:22] <anne> I would recommend reading http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/#access1
  163. # [12:22] <mjs> that still doesn't answer my question
  164. # [12:22] <mjs> is the user agent expected to add it or the author?
  165. # [12:22] <mjs> if the user agent adds it, then "easier to author against" is not a relevant consideration
  166. # [12:23] <anne> you don't understand
  167. # [12:23] <mjs> clearly
  168. # [12:23] <anne> the author needs to deal with the request
  169. # [12:23] <hsivonen> anne: I take MUST as meaning that without it I go 400
  170. # [12:23] <mjs> this is why I am asking questions
  171. # [12:23] <anne> if the request uses a weird HTTP method that makes things harder
  172. # [12:23] <mjs> how does the author need to deal with the request?
  173. # [12:23] <anne> if the request is a simple GET request with an informational header that makes things easier
  174. # [12:23] <mjs> do you mean on the server side?
  175. # [12:23] <anne> mjs, the author replies with an Allow header that specifies the allowed methods
  176. # [12:24] <anne> Allow: POST, PUT, DELETE
  177. # [12:24] <anne> mjs, yes
  178. # [12:24] <hsivonen> anne: will XHR2 UAs do the Method-Check check silently without the script author having to do it?
  179. # [12:24] <mjs> ok, I was unclear on who "the author" referred to here
  180. # [12:24] <mjs> is support for custom methods truly so bad on the server side that it's better to smuggle a method in a request header?
  181. # [12:24] <anne> hsivonen, yes
  182. # [12:24] <mjs> hsivonen: from the spec it sounds like yes
  183. # [12:25] <mjs> so the only relevant authoring considerations are server side
  184. # [12:25] <anne> mjs, it's not smoggling a method in a request header
  185. # [12:25] <anne> mjs, it's asking whether a certain method can be used
  186. # [12:25] <mjs> anne: is a GET with Method-Check on it expected to return the resource?
  187. # [12:25] <mjs> like a GET normally would when it succeeds?
  188. # [12:25] <anne> no, it's a security check
  189. # [12:25] <mjs> so it's not really a GET
  190. # [12:25] <mjs> it's a TELLMEWHATMETHODSAREALLOWED
  191. # [12:26] <hsivonen> anne: shouldn't it use a SECURITYCHECK method then?
  192. # [12:26] <anne> it's really OPTIONS, indeed
  193. # [12:26] <anne> but see above about author complexity
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  195. # [12:26] <hsivonen> anne: so are you expecting server-side devs to be too incompetent to respond to OPTIONS?
  196. # [12:26] <mjs> is OPTIONS defined enough to be useful?
  197. # [12:27] <anne> hsivonen, that was the feedback Hixie's original proposal got, iirc
  198. # [12:27] <hsivonen> anne: mmkay
  199. # [12:28] <mjs> seems to me like one big problem with OPTIONS is that the server may already be doing something for it, and that something is likely wrong
  200. # [12:28] * anne still hasn't figured out how to use custom methods in Apache
  201. # [12:28] * anne needs something like that to work to properly test XMLHttpRequest
  202. # [12:29] <hsivonen> see. enterprisey non-LAMP stuff is needed after all. :-)
  203. # [12:29] <mjs> can a cgi script or similar see what method was used in the request?
  204. # [12:30] <hsivonen> mjs: yes. REQUEST_METHOD
  205. # [12:30] <mjs> so that's how you do it
  206. # [12:30] <mjs> seems simple enough
  207. # [12:30] <anne> the problem is that Apache bounces a xxx method not supported thingie before it even reaches the script
  208. # [12:30] <mjs> (unless the server blocks unknown methods or something)
  209. # [12:30] <mjs> I suddenly wonder about all the people who insisted that XHR has to support sending custom methods if they are unusable from the server side
  210. # [12:31] <anne> those are the people who write custom server software and all that
  211. # [12:31] <anne> it's quite easy to set up a simple server yourself
  212. # [12:31] <anne> collegue did it in a few lines of python
  213. # [12:33] <hsivonen> hmm. http://validator.nu/ already says Allow: GET, HEAD, POST, TRACE, OPTIONS when probed with OPTIONS
  214. # [12:33] <hsivonen> which looks about right
  215. # [12:33] <mjs> interesting
  216. # [12:34] <anne> (not if you don't want to allow POST)
  217. # [12:34] <hsivonen> anne: I override doPost in the servlet, which means I handle POST
  218. # [12:35] <anne> sorry, not if you don't want to allow cross-site POST
  219. # [12:35] <anne> is what I meant
  220. # [12:35] <hsivonen> anne: well, that might be a reason to do something other than vanilla OPTIONS
  221. # [12:35] <anne> (although I suppose that's already problematic with <form>)
  222. # [12:35] <hsivonen> anne: like OPTIONS plus header
  223. # [12:36] <hsivonen> let's see if mod_jk allows me to handle OPTIONS
  224. # [12:40] <hsivonen> yeah, I get to override OPTIONS handling with whatever I want
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  228. # [12:46] <hsivonen> anne: if you are concerned that OPTIONS might inadvertently Allow stuff, you could specify a new response header. that way, clients would know that the server recognized Method-Check
  229. # [12:47] <hsivonen> anne: for example, Allow: GET, HEAD, POST, TRACE, OPTIONS<CRLF>Access-Control-Allow: POST
  230. # [12:48] <hsivonen> (aside: it sucks that servlets dispatch on method first. it seems to me HTTP dispatch should be done on URI first and method second)
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  232. # [12:51] <anne> hsivonen, you think it's worth changing?
  233. # [12:51] <anne> hsivonen, if so, you need to raise it on public-appformats and convince Firefox to change their implementation
  234. # [12:52] <anne> I'm afraid :(
  235. # [12:53] <hsivonen> anne: hmm. OPTIONS certainly seems Right from an ivory-tower perspective. but perhaps the real Web is a two-verb Web. whether this needs stirring is a hard call
  236. # [12:55] <hsivonen> anne: do Firefox nightlies already support Method-Check with the new name?
  237. # [12:57] <anne> Firefox nightlies only implement the response part of the security GET request
  238. # [12:57] <anne> Firefox 3 will also inform the server by sending out Method-Check
  239. # [12:58] <anne> (and Referer-Root)
  240. # [12:59] <hsivonen> anne: do you mean the Method-Check stuff isn't implemented yet, if it isn't in the nightlies but will be in Firefox 3?
  241. # [13:00] <anne> well, Allow is checked and the security GET request is made, it's just that nightlies don't send out the Method-Check header that indicates the desired method header
  242. # [13:00] <hsivonen> anne: does the server need to read the value of Method-Check at all? Isn't it enough to just check presence of the header and respond with Allow for whatever it is you allow?
  243. # [13:00] <anne> so depending on what you mean with "Method-Stuff"...
  244. # [13:01] <hsivonen> now I'm confused
  245. # [13:01] <hsivonen> am I supposed to know that a particular GET is a security GET even though it has no special labeling header?
  246. # [13:02] <hsivonen> how do I tell apart security GETs and usual GETs then?
  247. # [13:03] <anne> in Firefox 3, not sure
  248. # [13:03] <anne> euh, Firefox nightlies
  249. # [13:03] <anne> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=397879
  250. # [13:06] <anne> hsivonen, oh, the bug you're seeing on my weblog (was it you?) in Firefox is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=327765
  251. # [13:06] <anne> (with commenting)
  252. # [13:06] <anne> (at least, I think that's the bug)
  253. # [13:07] <hsivonen> anne: thanks
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  261. # [14:26] <anne> thanks hsivonen!
  262. # [14:32] <hsivonen> anne: I hope my comment is useful and doesn't turn into HTTP verb bikeshedding.
  263. # [14:33] <anne> there's a risk, indeed
  264. # [14:34] <zcorpan_> which comment?
  265. # [14:34] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2007Oct/0024.html
  266. # [14:35] <zcorpan_> ah
  267. # [14:35] <hsivonen> anne: but in any case, I think the spec needs to do some more to walk Web app implementor through the process
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  269. # [14:39] <anne> hsivonen, for the non-GET case?
  270. # [14:40] <hsivonen> anne: yes
  271. # [14:41] <anne> it's not really clear which spec owns the domain of access requests which is why it's prolly a bit vague
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  293. # [18:24] <Hixie> anne: the Method-Check request is sent, and then the reply to that is checked for Access-Control PIs and headers, right?
  294. # [18:24] <Hixie> anne: so an entity body _is_ desired, no?
  295. # [18:25] <Hixie> the reason not to use OPTIONS is that it's not cacheable
  296. # [18:27] <Hixie> DanC: yt? (topic: informing you of sponsorships)
  297. # [18:28] <DanC> hi. mail to public-html would be better
  298. # [18:28] <DanC> I figured IRC was enough last time cuz it went into minutes of a meeting that got sent to public-html
  299. # [18:28] <DanC> but if you like you can just tell me here and I'll put it on the meeting page.
  300. # [18:29] <Hixie> yeah will send mail eventually, just wanted to let you know first
  301. # [18:30] <Hixie> anyway, google will be sponsoring Joshue O Connor, Ben 'Cerbera' Millard, and James Graham (specifically we're paying for flights and hotel)
  302. # [18:31] <Hixie> they were selected on the basis of picking people who otherwise couldn't attend, who had done productive work in the group, as judged by myself on the advice of various other contributors
  303. # [18:31] <DanC> nifty
  304. # [18:40] <Lionheart> Great
  305. # [18:41] <anne> Hixie, right, for XML responses that is indeed true
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  307. # [18:43] * DanC adds a "Thanks to Sponsors" section http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07#tts
  308. # [18:44] <DanC> crikey... huge list of observer requests in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2007/registrants#html
  309. # [18:45] <anne> they can just join any of the small sub groups, no?
  310. # [18:45] <anne> depending on how much place we have I suppose
  311. # [18:45] <DanC> the data is pretty noisy; some people I consider WG participants are registered as observers and vice versa; I wonder if it matters
  312. # [18:45] * Hixie thinks observers should be made to participate :-)
  313. # [18:46] <anne> no reading e-mail :p
  314. # [18:49] <Hixie> indeed
  315. # [18:51] <DanC> 50 registrants altogether
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  322. # [19:02] <DanC> if I want to parse http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2007/registrants#html with javascript, do I need greasemonkey? or can I use a bookmarklet somehow?
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  324. # [19:03] <DanC> most of my scripting habits are based on python... I'm new to javascript
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  326. # [19:04] <anne> either should work
  327. # [19:05] <anne> I would imagine greasemonkey (or userjs in Opera) to be easier to write unless people have developed tools for writing bookmarklets easier (likely) as they are single-line
  328. # [19:07] <Hixie> bookmarklets don't have to be single line
  329. # [19:07] <Hixie> it's just that newlines are written as the three character sequence "%0A" instead of using U+000A :-P
  330. # [19:08] <Hixie> (but you can use the data URI kitchen to get around it)
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The end :)