/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-04-03 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Apr 03 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #html-wg
# [00:00] <Hixie> wait, now john is joining the tf?
# [00:00] <Hixie> who is he replacing?
# [00:01] <hsivonen> subscribing to the list and being a member of the tf are different things
# [00:01] <hsivonen> though I thought non-members of the tf weren't supposed to post there
# [00:02] <Hixie> hard to say what a member is then :-)
# [00:05] <Lachy> they're not supposed to post there
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# [00:07] <Lachy> maybe I should advise him of that
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# [00:11] <hsivonen> Wasn't Web Forms 2.0 part of the HTML 5 adoption vote?
# [00:12] <hsivonen> yeah, Web Forms 2.0 was adopted on the same level "as the basis of review" as the rest of HTML 5
# [00:12] <anne> yes
# [00:16] <Lachy> I think John and the forms WG are doing things backwards. Instead of asking the HTMLWG or Forms TF to recommend changes to their very incomplete proposal to meet HTML5's design principles, they should instead propose changes to WF2 that would make it more acceptable to their requirements
# [00:17] <hsivonen> Lachy++
# [00:17] <anne> I don't think they're required to do anything in particular ;)
# [00:18] <hsivonen> I really don't see why the HTML WG should accommodate their wishes if they won't send review feedback on Web Forms 2.0
# [00:21] <anne> I can't really do anything with their proposal, it's way too vague
# [00:29] <Lachy> other than the vagueness of their proposal, a few specific issues I see with it is the use of <select1> instead of <input type=radio> or simply <select>
# [00:30] <Lachy> the default="" attribute instead of value=""
# [00:30] <Lachy> undefined syntax for calculate=""
# [00:30] <anne> isn't <select1> more like <input list=x>
# [00:31] <Lachy> the use of some supposedly magic insert() and delete() function in the onclick attribute, which would clash with JS
# [00:31] <Lachy> I stopped reading after that bit.
# [00:32] <Lachy> I don't see how select1 is like that. I don't think the subseqent input elements are related to the select1 at all. I think it's supposed to have </select1> before those, and be filled with <option> or something
# [00:33] <Lachy> my assumption is based upon the indentation of the markup and that what the subsequent input elements represent don't make sense as options in that select1
# [00:34] <anne> ah yeah, you're right
# [00:35] <Philip> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/#ui-selectOne
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# [00:40] <Lachy> Hixie, I was asked in a private email to explain what you meant by your statement that semantics is not an end-goal of HTML5 in the mathml thread. Am I right in assuming that you meant that the goal should be to address the use cases in an accessible way, whereas using semantics is just one possible method of achieving that, and not a goal in and of itself?
# [00:40] <hsivonen> oh it was select one instead of select L like list
# [00:40] <Hixie> lachy: the goals are those listed here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies
# [00:41] <Lachy> thanks
# [00:41] <hsivonen> Lachy: do you interpret Hixie to html4all?
# [00:42] <Lachy> no, it wasn't one of the html4all members (as far as I'm aware)
# [00:44] <Lachy> though he said "A few people have contacted me asking me to call out Ian Hickson over his statement that "Semantic content isn't an end-goal of the HTML5 work.""
# [00:44] <Hixie> isn't that even in our design principles document
# [00:45] <Lachy> yeah, I think so. I referred him to the design principles in my response
# [00:46] <hsivonen> It's rather sad that people get all worked up because Hixie said something reasonable
# [00:47] <Hixie> they don't think it's reasonable
# [00:47] <Hixie> they are entitled to their opinion
# [00:48] <Lachy> I know. I tried to put it in perspective of the design principles and what people actually want to achieve by using semantics. He told me he understood
# [00:48] <Lachy> so hopefully he passes that on to whoever contacted him about it
# [00:50] <hsivonen> I find the proxy chain amusing
# [00:50] <hsivonen> anyway, nn
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# [01:32] * MikeSmith sees some people apparently starting to wake up about Forms TF
# [01:33] <MikeSmith> Lachy, anne - Was John Boyer not a member for the task force when it was set up?
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# [01:54] <mjs> MikeSmith: I don't believe he was
# [01:54] <mjs> I would have noticed
# [01:54] <MikeSmith> mjs - OK
# [01:54] <MikeSmith> I guess I wonder why he wasn't, or didn't choose to be
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# [01:56] * Philip sees pages using <externallinks> and <ExternalElements> and <external>, and wonders if there are many that use <ext>
# [02:00] * MikeSmith reads back through earlier discussion about WF2 review here
# [02:03] <MikeSmith> mjs - I'm happy to post the form TF charter somewhere
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# [02:07] <Hixie> i'm amused that the forms wg has again asked for one of their proposals to be reviewed, still having not reviewed the now 2 year old complete proposal for forms
# [02:12] <Dashiva> I'd say it stopped being amusing after the first year :)
# [02:13] <Hixie> i'm easily amused
# [02:13] <Hixie> it's a prerequisite for my job
# [02:13] <Dashiva> Look, kittens!
# [02:14] <Hixie> i have kittens now
# [02:14] <Hixie> they're so ridiculously cute
# [02:14] <Philip> You'll have to kill them and buy new ones before they grow into big nasty cats
# [02:15] <Hixie> cats are good
# [02:15] <Dashiva> As long as they aren't too plural
# [02:16] <Lachy> the only good cat is a LOLCat
# [02:16] <Lachy> I don't think they're good for anything else
# [02:17] * Hixie unsubscribes lachy from the whatwg list
# [02:17] <Lachy> :-)
# [02:17] <Hixie> :-P
# [02:17] <Dashiva> Don't underestimate seriouscats
# [02:17] <Dashiva> No wait. Realisticats, that's the name
# [02:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie - yeah, certainly they have an obligation to actually review the forms proposal that's already on the table
# [02:19] <MikeSmith> I will ask the chairs to try to make that very clear
# [02:19] <Hixie> i don't think they have that obligation
# [02:20] <Hixie> they only have that obligation, imho, _if_ they expect _their_ proposal to receive a review
# [02:20] <MikeSmith> heh
# [02:20] <anne> I agree, nobody needs to do anyting per se
# [02:21] <mjs> MikeSmith: that would be helpful
# [02:22] <MikeSmith> mjs - can you point me to the original TF charter? was it just sent out only by e-mail or is there HTML for it somewhere?
# [02:23] <mjs> MikeSmith: anne wrote it - I don't know if there was anything but the text file
# [02:23] <MikeSmith> OK
# [02:23] <Hixie> charter is in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Oct/0000.html
# [02:23] <anne> the charter is online too
# [02:24] <MikeSmith> anne - no, I guess nobody does need to do anything if we don't actually want anything different to happen
# [02:24] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal
# [02:24] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal
# [02:24] <Hixie> d'oh
# [02:24] <MikeSmith> anne, Hixie - thanks
# [02:24] <anne> The only thing I still need to do is move it to ./charter I suppose and say that it's official
# [02:24] <MikeSmith> anne - yeah, please do that
# [02:25] <MikeSmith> anyway, it seems like if we do want something to happen, it needs to begin by having the reps from the Forms WG actually do the review of what's already been propose
# [02:25] <MikeSmith> proposed
# [02:26] <anne> sounds fair to me
# [02:27] <MikeSmith> I'll update the WG home page now with a link to the charter
# [02:35] <MikeSmith> OK, I added a link in the Charter section of the WG home page
# [02:35] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/
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# [09:19] * marcos_ wonders if anyone is bored enough to answer some DOM questions I have?
# [09:19] <mjs_> marcos_: I might know
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# [09:20] <mjs> the answer
# [09:20] <mjs> (but maybe not)
# [09:20] <marcos_> mjs, is it possible to dynamically change the namespace of elements on the fly?
# [09:21] <mjs> marcos_: I believe it is not
# [09:21] <mjs> marcos_: the namespace is basically part of the element's name, just like the tagName
# [09:22] <marcos_> argh.... :( I have a problem in the Widget spec that I am trying to force the XML processor to insert a namespace dynamically if it is missing:
# [09:22] <heycam> but there is renameNode
# [09:22] <marcos_> //If the xmlns attribute is declared, but does not match the configuration document namespace, then treat this resource as an invalid zip archive.
# [09:22] <marcos_> if(elem.hasAttribute("xmlns") && elem.getAttribute("xmlns") != CONFIGDOC_NAMESPACE){
# [09:22] <marcos_> //throw new Exception("Invalid Zip archive: the widget element is in the wrong namespace: " + elem.getAttribute("xmlns") + ". I should be: "+ Tester.CONFIGDOC_NAMESPACE);
# [09:22] <marcos_> }else{
# [09:22] <marcos_> //If the xmlns attribute in undeclared, assign it the configuration document namespace.
# [09:22] <marcos_> elem.setAttribute("xmlns", CONFIGDOC_NAMESPACE);
# [09:22] <marcos_> }
# [09:25] <heycam> marcos_, i think if you're using an xml parser, and there's no namespace declaration, then that's it, the element isn't in a namespace
# [09:26] <mjs> marcos_: yeah, lack of namespace declaration --> null namespace
# [09:27] <marcos_> yeah... but then later I want to getElementsByNS... because there may be other elements in a different namespace but with the same element name
# [09:27] <marcos_> getElementsByTagNameNS*
# [09:29] <marcos_> I guess I could just getElementsByTagName and then iterate through each one and make sure that the namespace is null or matches my default namespace
# [09:30] <heycam> marcos_, what exactly do you want to do?
# [09:31] <heycam> find elements that have the given localName and are in either the null namespace or your namespace?
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# [09:33] <heycam> [18:27] <heycam> marcos_, what exactly do you want to do?
# [09:33] <heycam> [18:27] <heycam> find elements that have the given localName and are in either the null namespace or your namespace?
# [09:33] <mjs> marcos_: does the Widgets spec require handling either null namespace or the specific correct namespace?
# [09:33] <marcos_> people have been naggin me to make it namespace aware, so it can be extended
# [09:34] <marcos_> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/waf/widgets/Overview.src.html?rev=1.77&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1
# [09:34] <marcos_> see Step 7 - Process the configuration document
# [09:34] <heycam> seems like you should just choose one way or the other, to me. (either no namespace at all, or your namespace... both seems a bit weird)
# [09:35] <mjs> do you expect this format to ever be mixed inline with other XML?
# [09:35] <marcos_> yes, both is weird, but the reality is that people don't declare namespaces because they suck.
# [09:35] <mjs> if so, you probably want to make the namespacing mandatory
# [09:35] <marcos_> mjs, no straight up XML. Looks more and more like namespaces are going to have to be mandatory.
# [09:36] <marcos_> alright... if no namespace... then die :(
# [09:37] <marcos_> mjs, sorry, yes... we do expect it to be mixed with other namespaces.
# [09:39] <hsivonen> marcos_: I think it is pretty clear that any Web spec that involves XML parsing has to require the XML parser to be run in the namespace-enabled mode :-(
# [09:39] <marcos_> I wanted to be able to have something like <widget><extension xmlns="hello">bla</extension></widget> and still have it work.
# [09:39] <mjs> speaking as someone who deeply hates namespaces in XML with a passion, I think the good practice for XML-based languages is to give it a namespace
# [09:40] <mjs> and not to use the null namespace
# [09:40] <mjs> for public vocabularies
# [09:40] <marcos_> Alright, I'll rewrite that part of the spec to be strict about namespaces. Thanks for the help.
# [09:42] * marcos_ writes "If the xmlns attribute is undeclared, or does not match the configuration document namespace, then treat this resource as an invalid zip archive." and shakes his head in shame.
# [09:43] <mjs> alas
# [09:43] <Hixie> don't make it based on the xmlns attribute
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# [09:43] <Hixie> <widget xmlns="foo"> and <x:widget xmlns:x="foo"> should be equivalent
# [09:43] <marcos_> hixie, oh?
# [09:43] <Hixie> just say "a widget element in the foo namespace" or whatever
# [09:44] <hsivonen> marcos_: yeah, what Hixie said. You shouldn't mention the xmlns attribute at all.
# [09:44] <marcos_> yeah, good point
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# [13:15] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
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# [13:15] * Topic is 'HTML WG chat http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ) '
# [13:15] * Set by DanC_lap on Mon Mar 10 03:08:44
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# [15:58] <anne> so I was planning to reply to JB, but I guess it's better to wait for replies to Maciej's e-mail
# [15:58] <anne> (s)
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# [16:30] <hsivonen> besides, making a big deal about which language advancements are extensions and which ones are updates to the core language leads to a situation where the entirety has Conway's Law written all over it
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# [18:01] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, start telcon
# [18:01] * trackbot-ng HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
# [18:01] * trackbot-ng is starting a teleconference
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# [18:01] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-html-wg-irc
# [18:01] <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot-ng
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# [18:01] <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be HTML
# [18:01] <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
# [18:01] <trackbot-ng> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
# [18:01] <trackbot-ng> Date: 03 April 2008
# [18:01] <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
# [18:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
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# [18:02] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
# [18:02] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
# [18:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, +[ is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named '+['
# [18:03] <MikeSmith> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
# [18:03] <Zakim> + +049251280aaaa
# [18:03] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
# [18:03] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
# [18:03] <Zakim> +DanC
# [18:03] <Julian> Zakim, +049251280aaaa is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
# [18:03] <DanC> agenda + Convene, review agenda, plan next meeting
# [18:03] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
# [18:03] <anne> My heating is curretnly being fixed so I rather not dial in until either he leaves or something *really* important comes up. My apologies.
# [18:03] <anne> s/curretnly/currently/
# [18:03] <DanC> got it, anne
# [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.218.340.aabb
# [18:04] * Lachy waves
# [18:04] <Zakim> +??P5
# [18:04] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see MikeSmith, Julian, DanC, +1.218.340.aabb, ??P5
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# [18:04] <DanC> Zakim, aabb is Laura
# [18:04] <Zakim> +Laura; got it
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# [18:04] <DanC> Zakim, ??P5 JoshueO
# [18:04] <Zakim> I don't understand '??P5 JoshueO', DanC
# [18:04] <DanC> Zakim, ??P5 is JoshueO
# [18:04] <Zakim> +JoshueO; got it
# [18:04] <DanC> oedipus, are you around?
# [18:05] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
# [18:05] * Lachy can someone paste the link to the agenda?
# [18:05] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
# [18:05] <DanC> it's in the topic too
# [18:05] <DanC> I haven't really done as much prep as I'd like
# [18:05] * Lachy no it's not, I looked in the topic first.
# [18:05] * DanC oops; sorry, lachy
# [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.734.995.aacc
# [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, aacc is Patrick
# [18:06] <Zakim> +Patrick; got it
# [18:06] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-14 aria-role
# [18:06] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
# [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.703.265.aadd
# [18:07] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml
# [18:07] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
# [18:07] <DanC> Zakim, aadd is Robert_Gonia
# [18:07] <Zakim> +Robert_Gonia; got it
# [18:07] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see MikeSmith, Julian, DanC, Laura, JoshueO, Gregory_Rosmaita, Patrick, Robert_Gonia
# [18:08] <shepazu> Zakim, call doug-work
# [18:08] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
# [18:08] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax
# [18:08] <Zakim> +Doug
# [18:08] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
# [18:08] <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
# [18:08] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
# [18:08] * Joins: PIon (465a29f9@128.30.52.43)
# [18:08] <Zakim> 1. Convene, review agenda, plan next meeting [from DanC]
# [18:08] <Zakim> 2. ISSUE-14 aria-role [from DanC]
# [18:08] <Zakim> 3. ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml [from DanC]
# [18:08] <Zakim> 4. ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax [from DanC]
# [18:09] * Quits: PIon (465a29f9@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
# [18:09] <DanC> agenda + offline-applications-sql
# [18:09] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
# [18:09] * Joins: PIon (c66fbe05@128.30.52.43)
# [18:09] <DanC> action-48?
# [18:09] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-48
# [18:09] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-48 -- Dan Connolly to start mailing list on phrase level semantic elements -- due 2008-03-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
# [18:09] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/48
# [18:09] <DanC> DanC: anybody mind if I withdraw?
# [18:10] <DanC> close action-48
# [18:10] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-48.
# [18:10] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-48 Start mailing list on phrase level semantic elements closed
# [18:10] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see MikeSmith, Julian, DanC, Laura, JoshueO, Gregory_Rosmaita, Patrick, Robert_Gonia, Doug
# [18:11] <DanC> agenda + extensibility point, distributed extensibility
# [18:11] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
# [18:11] <DanC> agenda + forms TF status
# [18:11] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
# [18:11] <DanC> agenda + authoring guide
# [18:11] * Zakim notes agendum 8 added
# [18:11] * shepazu looks around for ChrisW... o_O
# [18:12] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-31 missing-alt
# [18:12] * Zakim notes agendum 9 added
# [18:12] * Joins: Steve_f (chatzilla@82.44.69.8)
# [18:13] <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
# [18:13] <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
# [18:13] <Zakim> 1. Convene, review agenda, plan next meeting [from DanC]
# [18:13] <Zakim> 2. ISSUE-14 aria-role [from DanC]
# [18:13] <Zakim> 3. ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml [from DanC]
# [18:13] <Zakim> 4. ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax [from DanC]
# [18:13] <Zakim> 5. offline-applications-sql [from DanC]
# [18:13] <Zakim> 6. extensibility point, distributed extensibility [from DanC]
# [18:13] <Zakim> 7. forms TF status [from DanC]
# [18:13] <Zakim> 8. authoring guide [from DanC]
# [18:13] <Zakim> 9. ISSUE-31 missing-alt [from DanC]
# [18:13] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
# [18:13] <MikeSmith> Scribe: MikeSmith
# [18:14] <MikeSmith> Chair: DanC
# [18:14] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:14] <DanC> next meeting should be 4p PT Thu 10 Apr, ChrisW to chair
# [18:14] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [18:14] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, review agenda, plan next meeting" taken up [from DanC]
# [18:14] * Joins: sampablokuper (sampabloku@131.111.163.146)
# [18:15] <DanC> Zakim, close item 1
# [18:15] <Zakim> agendum 1, Convene, review agenda, plan next meeting, closed
# [18:15] <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [18:15] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [18:15] <Zakim> 2. ISSUE-14 aria-role [from DanC]
# [18:15] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:15] <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-14 aria-role" taken up [from DanC]
# [18:15] <Steve_f> hi Dan, i am unable to attend as i have to go and pick up my daughter from nursery at this time, any chance of making it later or earlier next week +/- 1hour?
# [18:15] <DanC> you can ask chrisw, Steve
# [18:15] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14
# [18:15] <oedipus> GJR: PF convened a special meeting at a special time to accomodate participation by HTML WG members in discussion of aria-role in HTML5 on 25 march 2008 but no one save PF people turned up -- SimonP valiantly tried to join the call, but could not dial in for some technological reason and was there on IRC
# [18:15] <MikeSmith> issue-14?
# [18:15] * trackbot-ng getting information on ISSUE-14
# [18:15] <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-14 -- Integration of WAI-ARIA roles into HTML5 -- OPEN
# [18:15] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14
# [18:16] <Steve_f> ok no problem
# [18:16] <DanC> pointer to records of that meeting, pls?
# [18:16] <DanC> or meeting call?
# [18:16] <MikeSmith> oedipus : we convened a special meeting to help others to attend, but nobody other than PF people decided to join
# [18:17] <DanC> s/decided/managed/
# [18:17] <MikeSmith> ... we have meeting minutes but they are member-only
# [18:17] * ChrisWilson wakes up, finds phone number.
# [18:17] <DanC> ACTION-8?
# [18:17] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-8
# [18:17] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-8 -- Michael Cooper to discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute -- due 2008-02-21 -- OPEN
# [18:17] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/8
# [18:17] <MikeSmith> ... we have not been about to get a critical mass of people from outside PF to join in the discussion
# [18:17] <DanC> close action-8
# [18:17] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-8.
# [18:17] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-8 Discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute closed
# [18:18] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:18] <MikeSmith> s/about to/able to/
# [18:18] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is me
# [18:18] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
# [18:18] <DanC> close ACTION-9
# [18:18] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-9.
# [18:18] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-9 Discuss UML tools with DanC closed
# [18:18] <oedipus> member-confidential record: http://www.w3.org/2008/03/25-pf-minutes.html
# [18:18] <DanC> ACTION-23?
# [18:18] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-23
# [18:18] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-23 -- Gregory Rosmaita to coordinate tests using ARIA -- due 2008-02-21 -- OPEN
# [18:18] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/23
# [18:19] <Steve_f> Dan - can you note that action 54 is in progress still, we are waiting on response from PF WG on use of normative statements.
# [18:19] <DanC> action-54?
# [18:19] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-54
# [18:19] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-54 -- Gregory Rosmaita to work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-04-10 -- OPEN
# [18:19] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
# [18:19] <DanC> Steve_f, we're not there just now
# [18:20] <MikeSmith> oedipus : we don't have the level of collaboration with the HTML WG that we would like
# [18:20] <DanC> re tests... al gilman gave me http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Mar/0069.html
# [18:20] <Steve_f> aplogies
# [18:20] <oedipus> Paciello Groups' ARIA tests: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=53
# [18:20] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@217.44.37.113)
# [18:21] <MikeSmith> oedipus - we will neither add not [remove] any roles at this point
# [18:22] <MikeSmith> s/add not/add nor/
# [18:22] <MikeSmith> oedipus - navigation and landmark roles [two types]
# [18:23] <DanC> DanC: do the Paciello Groups' ARIA tests enuerate the roles?
# [18:23] <MikeSmith> ... we doing a comprehensive check to see that all the states are explicitly spelled out
# [18:23] <MikeSmith> DanC : It would help me to see some tests
# [18:23] <MikeSmith> s/enuerate/enumerate/
# [18:23] <DanC> I read http://hsivonen.iki.fi/aria-html5-bis/
# [18:24] <DanC> Text last updated: 2008-03-31 by Henri Sivonen
# [18:24] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
# [18:24] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
# [18:24] * Joins: Cathead (Josh@62.77.173.27)
# [18:24] * MikeSmith eats some peanuts
# [18:24] <Cathead> Cathead is joshue
# [18:24] <oedipus> Public PF comments list: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2008JanMar/
# [18:24] <MikeSmith> DanC : has anybody looked at Henri's posting?
# [18:26] <MikeSmith> DanC : oedipus, can you look at Henri's doc now?
# [18:26] * shepazu is certainly not Cathead
# [18:26] <MikeSmith> PIon : appears to have a list of roles that are not supported
# [18:27] <anne> Henri's ARIA post made sense to me. I haven't been deeply involved in ARIA semantics though.
# [18:27] * MikeSmith asks whether that was PIon that just spoke
# [18:27] * Quits: Steve_f (chatzilla@82.44.69.8) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.12/2008020121])
# [18:27] <anne> I was mostly concerned with ARIA syntax and that seems to be a resolved thingie now.
# [18:27] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:27] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
# [18:28] <DanC> stuff from cooper to the TAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Apr/0006.html -> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/aria-implementation
# [18:28] * Parts: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
# [18:28] <MikeSmith> DanC : MichaelCooper sent that yesterday
# [18:29] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [18:29] <Zakim> On the phone I see MikeSmith, Julian, DanC, Laura, JoshueO, Gregory_Rosmaita, Patrick, Robert_Gonia, Doug, ChrisWilson
# [18:29] <MikeSmith> ... Noah Mendelsohn replied
# [18:29] <MikeSmith> DanC : I'm trying to find out how close we are to closing this issue
# [18:30] <MikeSmith> ... my goal it to determine what test cases we have
# [18:30] <MikeSmith> oedipus : our original proposal was that we preferred native features in HTML over adding them using ARIA
# [18:31] <MikeSmith> oedipus : I think there is some basic understanding of what we're trying to do with ARIA
# [18:31] <shepazu> q+
# [18:31] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [18:32] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.14.240)
# [18:32] <MikeSmith> oedipus : [mention of example of math]
# [18:33] <MikeSmith> oedipus : ARIA 1.0 is about repairing what we have today
# [18:34] <DanC> ack shepazu
# [18:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:34] <MikeSmith> ... but the eventual migration is that we hope that in future, many of these ARIA roles and landmarks will become a native part of the HTML markup language
# [18:34] <MikeSmith> shepazu : I think we can cover background on ARIA outside of this telcon
# [18:35] <MikeSmith> ... we can have a separate call about this perhaps
# [18:36] <MikeSmith> oedipus : [mentions posting from jgraham as indicating that ARIA roadmap/plans might not be well understood by all]
# [18:36] <MikeSmith> oedipus : there are tests on the ESW wiki
# [18:36] <MikeSmith> shepazu : this stuff is actually working in Firefox..
# [18:37] <MikeSmith> oedipus : we can't provide tests for HTML5 until we have agreement with the HTML WG about how to integrate it
# [18:37] <PIon> Is there an example of the use of a "math" role in the ARIA specification? Does it specify the informative additional markup to be used?
# [18:38] <MikeSmith> oedipus : nobody has come to the PF working group with their tests
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> shepazu : the tests can be proposal-level stuff
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> ... the group can then take a look at those
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> ... you don't have to spec out everything first
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> DanC : that would help me out a lot
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> oedipus : that would not be satisfactory
# [18:40] <zcorpan> i'm planning to write some aria-in-html5 tests/demos soonish, btw
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> DanC : a test is a file written by somebody who as a notion of what the expected results are
# [18:41] <anne> Actually, I often start out by writing a test where I'm not quite sure what the expected results are...
# [18:41] * DanC is conflicted between getting to the bottom of this and moving on to other items
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> oedipus : we want to take what we've learned and bring it to the HTML5 WG and have it integrated into HTML5
# [18:41] <zcorpan> a test without a pass condition is a demo
# [18:41] <zcorpan> demos are still good
# [18:41] <DanC> right, I like to have pass conditions too
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> oedipus : ARIA is on LC-track
# [18:42] <anne> (Well, eventually I know and they'll have a pass condition, but not initially.)
# [18:43] <MikeSmith> oedipus : we are looking for more input from zcorpan, hsivonen, others .. need to them to come to the PF group to speak with us
# [18:43] <MikeSmith> ... meeting in the public space
# [18:43] <MikeSmith> ... we did something similar with math
# [18:44] <MikeSmith> oedipus : we have e-mail discussions but communication breaks down
# [18:44] <MikeSmith> ... [having a telcon discussion would help with that issue]
# [18:45] <MikeSmith> oedipus : we want things like ARIA overlays to not be necessary in HTML5 [UAs]
# [18:45] <MikeSmith> oedipus : targets for current ARIA is legacy browsers
# [18:45] * Joins: robertgonia (robertgoni@64.236.128.9)
# [18:45] <MikeSmith> ... for 1.0 we are restricted by current implementations
# [18:46] <DanC> (is the "no UA changes required" constraint on ARIA 1.0 documented?)
# [18:46] <oedipus> GJR: current and legacy browsers
# [18:47] <MikeSmith> shepazu : so what you want to discuss is ARIA 1.1 + HTML5
# [18:47] <Cathead> The way current AT works is ARIA not more dependent on how the browser deals with ARIA code rather than the AT itself?
# [18:47] <MikeSmith> DanC : so, OK, I'm hearing that the communication is not going well
# [18:47] <DanC> ack josh
# [18:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:47] <MikeSmith> q?
# [18:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:48] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.8.215) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [18:48] <DanC> close ACTION-11
# [18:49] <DanC> close ACTION-11
# [18:49] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-11.
# [18:49] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-11 Show how <div aria="something"> works with URI based extensibility closed
# [18:49] <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
# [18:49] <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
# [18:49] <Zakim> 2. ISSUE-14 aria-role [from DanC]
# [18:49] <Zakim> 3. ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml [from DanC]
# [18:49] <Zakim> 4. ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax [from DanC]
# [18:49] <Zakim> 5. offline-applications-sql [from DanC]
# [18:49] <Zakim> 6. extensibility point, distributed extensibility [from DanC]
# [18:49] <Zakim> 7. forms TF status [from DanC]
# [18:49] <Zakim> 8. authoring guide [from DanC]
# [18:49] <Zakim> 9. ISSUE-31 missing-alt [from DanC]
# [18:49] <DanC> Zakim, close item 2
# [18:49] <Zakim> agendum 2, ISSUE-14 aria-role, closed
# [18:49] <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [18:49] <Zakim> 3. ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml [from DanC]
# [18:50] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : I'll be on vacation next week and the following week
# [18:50] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [18:50] <Zakim> agendum 3. "ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml" taken up [from DanC]
# [18:50] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:50] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [18:50] <Zakim> On the phone I see MikeSmith, Julian, DanC, Laura, JoshueO, Gregory_Rosmaita, Patrick, Robert_Gonia, Doug, ChrisWilson
# [18:51] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/open
# [18:51] <DanC> . http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/open?sort=product
# [18:52] <sampablokuper> I see that action-29 isn't on today's agenda. Has it fallen off the radar, or is it still being discussed internally?
# [18:52] <MikeSmith> DanC : issue-37.. SVG/MathML should be a requirements issue, not a spec issue
# [18:52] <MikeSmith> action-29?
# [18:52] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-29
# [18:52] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-29 -- Dan Connolly to follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring -- due 2008-05-01 -- OPEN
# [18:52] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29
# [18:53] <MikeSmith> sampablokuper : still being discussed
# [18:53] <sampablokuper> Thanks
# [18:53] <Zakim> -Robert_Gonia
# [18:53] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : I think integrating other schema into HTML is a good thing, if for no other reason that it allows us to keep our own schema more targeted
# [18:54] <DanC> q+ to note a possible broader issue that svg/mathml
# [18:54] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
# [18:54] <MikeSmith> ... we have had a mechanism in IE for doing something like this for some time now
# [18:54] <MikeSmith> shepazu : curious about IE's xml element
# [18:54] <DanC> (pointer to ext element proposal, please)
# [18:54] <MikeSmith> ... my proposal is for a "point of extensibility"
# [18:54] <ChrisWilson> q+ to respond to shepazu's xml element comment
# [18:54] * Zakim sees DanC, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
# [18:55] <shepazu> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Extensions#Proposal_2:_Extensibility_Element
# [18:55] <MikeSmith> ... I think the HTML WG should not attempt to change the semantics or syntax of other languages
# [18:55] <MikeSmith> PIon : I'm here because I think the matter is a spec issue
# [18:55] <MikeSmith> ... math should be integrated for sure
# [18:56] <DanC> q+ to ask patrick about how long it's likely to take to settle on a good design, and explore more refined mathml/html issues
# [18:56] * Zakim sees DanC, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
# [18:56] <MikeSmith> ... the Math WG is very willing to discuss this
# [18:56] <MikeSmith> ... and the last week or show has shown some very useful discussion about this
# [18:58] <MikeSmith> ... I think you have a good chance by working with some of the people who've been trying to get this done now for years
# [18:58] <shepazu> q+
# [18:58] * Zakim sees DanC, ChrisWilson, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [18:58] <MikeSmith> ... and we are certainly willing to discuss this
# [18:58] <MikeSmith> Julian : I agree the extensibility question is general is one of the must interesting things that HTML5 should try to solve
# [18:59] <DanC> ack danc
# [18:59] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note a possible broader issue that svg/mathml and to ask patrick about how long it's likely to take to settle on a good design, and explore more refined
# [18:59] <Zakim> ... mathml/html issues
# [19:00] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [19:00] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Ping timeout)
# [19:00] <MikeSmith> DanC : I sense a lack of consensus about whether there is a need for a general extensibility in HTML
# [19:01] <MikeSmith> shepazu : my proposal is not for a general
# [19:01] <MikeSmith> ... completely "generic" extensibility mechanism
# [19:01] <PIon> q If there's a more general solution then it should encompass SVG and MathML as candidates.
# [19:02] * Quits: adele (adele@17.203.14.240) (Quit: adele)
# [19:02] <MikeSmith> DanC : the design space around this looks big
# [19:02] <MikeSmith> DanC : PIon, how long should this discussion take?
# [19:03] <MikeSmith> PIon : you can't expect consensus to emerge in 3 weeks, but perhaps in 3 months
# [19:03] <ChrisWilson> My point is that interoperability is important 1
# [19:03] <ChrisWilson> whoops
# [19:03] <MikeSmith> ... from our side, we are working on MathML 3.0, and we are still willing to make changes
# [19:03] <DanC> q+
# [19:03] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, shepazu, DanC on the speaker queue
# [19:04] <MikeSmith> ... so it desirable to try to get this nailed down pretty early, while both groups are still in a position to make changes
# [19:04] * MikeSmith says, now 2am in Tokyo..
# [19:04] <DanC> ack ChrisWilson
# [19:05] <Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to respond to shepazu's xml element comment
# [19:05] * Zakim sees shepazu, DanC on the speaker queue
# [19:05] <anne> Do we have 90min telcons? If so, I'll dial in
# [19:06] * Quits: sampablokuper (sampabloku@131.111.163.146) (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- It'll be on slashdot one day...)
# [19:06] <DanC> q+ to ask what Patrick thinks about the MathML community accepting the design constraints of HTML legacy
# [19:06] * Zakim sees shepazu, DanC on the speaker queue
# [19:06] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : shepazu, you were asking about the idea of how the extensibility point idea would [work with/map to] the IE xml element
# [19:06] <anne> (the agenda doesn't say)
# [19:06] <MikeSmith> anne - we will be on for another 30 minutes, year
# [19:06] * oedipus anne, we decided to go long, but how much longer i don't know
# [19:06] <MikeSmith> s/year/yeah/
# [19:06] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
# [19:06] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
# [19:06] * DanC ~15min, I hope
# [19:06] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : it ends up in _a_ tree, but not _the_ tree
# [19:07] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : there are challenges about the programming model
# [19:07] <Julian> q+
# [19:07] * Zakim sees shepazu, DanC, Julian on the speaker queue
# [19:07] <MikeSmith> ... stylesheets don't work across the boundary
# [19:07] <MikeSmith> ... for example
# [19:07] <Zakim> +??P10
# [19:08] <Cathead> For the record issue 32 (missing alt) is currently being worked on my myself, Laura C, Steve F and Gez Lemon.
# [19:08] * DanC who just joined?
# [19:08] <anne> Zakim, ??P10 is anne
# [19:08] <Zakim> +anne; got it
# [19:08] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : you need to remember that the parser does some specific things today
# [19:08] * DanC thanks
# [19:08] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
# [19:08] * anne has an IP-phone now apparently...
# [19:08] <MikeSmith> ... e.g. our parser fires off "speculative image downloads"
# [19:08] <MikeSmith> ... perception of performance would suffer
# [19:09] <DanC> ACTION: ChrisWilson respond to extensibility discussion
# [19:09] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:09] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [19:09] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-57 - Respond to extensibility discussion [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-04-10].
# [19:09] <DanC> ack shepazu
# [19:09] * Zakim sees DanC, Julian on the speaker queue
# [19:10] * Joins: Thezilch (asdf@74.62.192.76)
# [19:10] <Julian> q-
# [19:10] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
# [19:12] <DanC> DS: among those participating in the thread, only hickson seems opposed to using one of <ext-like> or <svg>/<mathml>.
# [19:12] <DanC> Anne: how many browser builders have participated?
# [19:12] <DanC> DS: mjs
# [19:12] <MikeSmith> anne : [notes that some important stakeholders have not contributed to the discussion thus far, so perhaps it is premature to draw conclusions from any perceived current consensus]
# [19:12] * Quits: Thezilch (asdf@74.62.192.76) (Quit: Thezilch)
# [19:13] <anne> I can't find Maciej's e-mail in the list
# [19:13] <DanC> shepazu, can you help anne find it?
# [19:13] <DanC> q?
# [19:13] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
# [19:13] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/
# [19:13] <MikeSmith> Julian : lots of people said they don't want the HTML parser to get further complicated by special-casing for large numbers of new elements
# [19:14] <shepazu> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080401#l-441
# [19:14] <shepazu> it wasn't on the list, it was on IRC
# [19:14] <Laura> Cathead, Missing alt is action 54 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54, issue 31 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31.
# [19:15] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:15] <MikeSmith> DanC : meeting adjourned
# [19:15] <Zakim> -DanC
# [19:15] <Cathead> bye
# [19:15] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
# [19:15] <Zakim> -Julian
# [19:15] <Cathead> quit
# [19:15] <Zakim> -Doug
# [19:15] * Parts: Cathead (Josh@62.77.173.27)
# [19:15] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
# [19:15] <DanC> you're welcome to stay and use the bridge, IRC bots, etc.
# [19:15] <Zakim> -anne
# [19:15] * anne is confused
# [19:15] <Zakim> -JoshueO
# [19:15] * oedipus join the club, anne
# [19:15] <anne> shepazu, more specific pointer?
# [19:15] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
# [19:16] <anne> oedipus :)
# [19:16] <Zakim> -Laura
# [19:16] <anne> Julian, where did people say that?
# [19:16] <anne> (I don't necessarily disagree though :))
# [19:16] <DanC> I'm 13 minutes late for another teleconference, so I proposed to adjourn the meeting; the scribe concurred, and nobody volunteered to take the scribe's place.
# [19:16] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who was here?
# [19:16] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
# [19:17] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who was on the call?
# [19:17] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
# [19:17] <DanC> I let people know they were welcome to stay on the phone bridge, as long as they didn't expect help from a chair/scribe
# [19:17] <Julian> Anne: don't have a pointer; but it's certainly what I felt most particpants did agree on.
# [19:17] <PIon> Can someone perhaps point to a plausible scenario discussed where a single ext-point would allow parsing of different vocabularies without just handing off to different parsers?
# [19:18] <DanC> PIon, does your question presume that using an XML parser for the whole document is implausible?
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# [19:19] <anne> PIon, if the ext-point would have slightly different tree building rules that would be possible
# [19:19] <anne> DanC, well, in that case you'd just use text/xml :)
# [19:19] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
# [19:20] <DanC> no, I wouldn't
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# [19:20] <DanC> personally
# [19:20] <PatrickDFIon> Sorry, I got dumped from IRC; I am temporarily back. I wondered if the ext point were just a tunnel to alternate worlds what the difference from a simple form of namespacing was?
# [19:21] <Zakim> -Patrick
# [19:21] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
# [19:21] <Zakim> Attendees were MikeSmith, DanC, Julian, +1.218.340.aabb, Laura, JoshueO, Gregory_Rosmaita, +1.734.995.aacc, Patrick, +1.703.265.aadd, Robert_Gonia, Doug, ChrisWilson, anne
# [19:22] <Julian> Patrick: I think it would be a simple form of namespacing. So that would be good.
# [19:23] <anne> DanC, ok fair enough, I guess my point is that text/html basic parsing rules can't really be changed. So that if we extend them somehow we need to do something "special".
# [19:24] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:26] <PatrickDFIon> DanC, I didn't reply to your first question becasue that was whenI got dumped. I can see a plausible XML parse of a whole document as a psoibility. However, the HTML5 context is apparently intended to avoid exactly that sort of thing, which is dissed as overly rigorous (and is for many puposes).
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# [19:27] <DanC> "overly rigiorous" is part of it; a small part, I think... the main constraint is what deployed code does with various syntaxes
# [19:27] <PatrickDFIon> s/psoibility/possibility/
# [19:29] <PatrickDFIon> Yes, there's an important rich, and well worth retaining, legacy context. Part of the problem with the egacy corpus in other contexts can be that it is so large that parts of it are incontradiction with each other. That seems to be true for Web pages.
# [19:29] <PatrickDFIon> s/egacy/legacy/
# [19:31] <Julian> How much pressure would be on extensibility-in-HTML5, if that certain important UA would support XHTML today?
# [19:32] <anne> Depends on how much authors would actually start doing XHTML properly.
# [19:33] <anne> Given that Philip is still able to poke holes in software of expert XHTML authors I'm not quite convinced the world is ready for it.
# [19:33] <shepazu> if IE started supporting XHTML, that seems like a very real scenario
# [19:33] <Julian> I would switch to XHTML if I could; and thus I would be less worried about HTML's lack of extensibility.
# [19:34] <Julian> "self-appointed" XHTML experts? :-)
# [19:35] <Julian> I mean, a real expert will use the proper tools that what he publishes indeed parses.
# [19:35] <PatrickDFIon> And that could depend partly on whether the tools they were offered for input of penalty copy, such as math, were attractive and produced spec-true XHTML (and specialist vocabularies). So that would suggest spec-writers need to do a better job too.
# [19:35] <Julian> Note that I'm not talking about *validity* here, only well-formedness.
# [19:35] <anne> So am I
# [19:36] <Philip> As far as I can remember, I haven't yet found an online XML-outputting system that accepts user input and can't be made to produce ill-formed content
# [19:36] <anne> Julian, I don't think they claim to be experts by the way
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# [19:37] <Julian> Philip: well; it's not hard to do it; you just need to use a proper XML serializer for output.
# [19:38] <Julian> Philip: dunno why so many people do not ret it right.
# [19:38] <Julian> s/ret/get/
# [19:38] <PatrickDFIon> The choke point appears to be when the hopefully well-formed source has to be rendered in some way. Strict specs are apparently not as easy to implement as ones where there is room for interpretation.
# [19:38] <Philip> Julian: It seems XML serialisers don't guarantee well-formed output
# [19:38] <Julian> Philip: name one.
# [19:39] * Philip tries to find the issue hsivonen had with Xalan
# [19:39] <Julian> Philip: I believe you, and I had to write my own a few years ago; I just want to see an example.
# [19:39] <Philip> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/XALANJ-2419
# [19:40] <anne> PatrickDFIon, yeah, implementing XML actually requires a bunch of additional checks that you wouldn't have to make in a simpler tokenizer that did the same thing. (Ignoring the multifail internal subset :) )
# [19:41] <Philip> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080102#l-277 - validator.nu seems to be fixed now
# [19:41] <Philip> (http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Fmisc%2Fchars.html&charset=iso-8859-1&output=soap12 still fails, though)
# [19:42] <Julian> Philip: that's one of those things I test first.
# [19:42] <Julian> Next are illegal comment character sequences and so on...
# [19:43] <PatrickDFIon> Anne: But it isn't it part of the tool-builder's duty to take care with machinery of the sorts of mechanical details that people find overloading? And yes, internal subsets don't seem to work if you try them (which I haven't done much).
# [19:44] <Julian> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/02/20/GenxStatus
# [19:45] <Philip> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/09/no-fury-like-dracon-scorned#comment-11442 has pointers to various examples of everyone getting it wrong
# [19:46] <anne> PatrickDFIon, I guess the lesson is that they don't
# [19:46] <Philip> I agree it seems like it should be easy to get right - the evidence is just that people actually don't get it right
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# [19:47] <Julian> But how many would get it right once they served what they serve with an XML MIME type?
# [19:47] <anne> Yeah, it's safer to assume that people are not perfect and build from there :)
# [19:47] <anne> Julian, those are sites with an XML MIME type :)
# [19:47] <PatrickDFIon> It is puzzling why programmers will put out spec-contradicting comment sequences happily in languages they don't understand while they would sneer at bad comments in the source code that puts them out. This is because the one renderer that the page was tried on worked fine with the bad comment convention, perhaps. But I spend my time making mistakes to learn, so cannot complain really.
# [19:48] <Philip> Julian: These are all cases where people are serving as application/xhtml+xml, and they produce (or did, before being fixed) the YSoD in Firefox
# [19:48] <Julian> oh well
# [19:49] <Philip> Computers are hard :-)
# [19:49] <Julian> Philip: interesting. So do you have statistics about how many got fixed?
# [19:49] <Philip> Julian: I haven't tried following up with any of them
# [19:50] <Philip> (and I never actually reported the bugs in the first place, because I don't care enough to do so)
# [19:51] <Philip> (The "bugs are obvious and will be fixed as soon as somebody encounters them" thing fails when the person who encounters them is too lazy :-) )
# [19:52] <Julian> Anyway... So we see that it's trivial to extend an XML-based syntax, but it seems to be incredible hard to do so with HTML. So may take-away from this is that a simplified parsing model that works without hardwired knowledge of the grammar (DTD) indeed has its advantages.
# [19:52] <gsnedders> If only we could start from scratch :P
# [19:53] <Julian> BTW: I just tried one of these in IE, and apparently it switches the MIME type based on the User-Agent string. So: people using IE will not see the problem anyway.
# [19:53] * Parts: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.194.3)
# [19:55] <Philip> Julian: That's a case where implementing XHTML gives a worse user experience
# [19:55] <Philip> which isn't really the right kind of motivation
# [19:55] <Julian> Right.
# [19:59] <PatrickDFIon> Starting from scratch (going back to apparently smple foundations) has been tried repeatedly in math and, though interesting, is never what people depend on in practice. A Bourbaki definition of the empty set is alleged to have 900 symbols (or something like that). Also, each new technology has meant some sort of return to basics, and this one is no different. But neither of the last two remarks is really very helpful, probably. So I have to go o
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# [19:59] <anne> heh, overflow exception in his IRC client?
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# [20:21] <anne> It's little bit weird that the forms discussion is mostly with the Forms WG chair rather than with the Forms WG Forms TF members...
# [20:22] <mjs> anne: seemed kinda weird to me too
# [20:23] <anne> Hopefully DanC / ChrisWilson will clear that up at some point
# [20:23] * DanC borrows some attention from another telecon...
# [20:23] <DanC> clear what up?
# [20:23] <DanC> oh... that. sigh.
# [20:24] <DanC> I enjoy dealing with that sort of stuff so much. it just really gets me up in the morning. not.
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# [20:24] <anne> heh
# [20:24] <mjs> DanC: sorry to heap troubles on you - I wasn't sure what else to do and I didn't want the Forms TF to get taken over completely by process debate
# [20:25] <mjs> (gotta go to another building, will be back)
# [20:25] <anne> (I'd be fine with making membership of the Forms TF openended for everyone interested in the Forms WG / HTML WG.)
# [20:26] <DanC> I don't blame you for the troubles; in fact, it's something of a service to take something that had some vague obligation to deal with and put it succinctly in my inbox
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# [21:09] <shepazu> anne: who would be the relevant interested people at Mozilla to talk about HTML5 issues? they don't seem to contribute much to HTML...
# [21:09] <shepazu> I guess hsivonen works for Moz in some capacity, right?
# [21:09] <gavin> what kind of "HTML5 issues"?
# [21:10] <shepazu> specifically, the extensibility discussion
# [21:11] <anne> I'd imagine mrbkap, sicking, bz, dbaron, et all, but I'm not entirely sure as I'm not really involved in the Mozilla project anymore :)
# [21:12] <shepazu> and how about Opera people?
# [21:13] <anne> We're on the list. We haven't really decided on a position or impact of the potential solutions.
# [21:14] <anne> (Not that that would stop individuals from contributing.)
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# [21:15] <shepazu> anne: similarly, who is someone at Opera who could discuss DOM3 Events during that telcon?
# [21:16] <anne> I think that would be me. I fell asleep yesterday on my couch due to jetlag issues
# [21:16] <shepazu> lol
# [21:17] <shepazu> no offense, but we'd like to also have someone who has implemented keyboard and events stuff
# [21:17] <shepazu> obviously, you know a lot of the issues well, so you're welcome as well
# [21:19] <anne> We've asked the team reasponsible before. They were not very interested in participating.
# [21:20] <shepazu> so? :D
# [21:20] <anne> well, the answer would be no :)
# [21:20] <shepazu> ah
# [21:23] <hsivonen> hmm. Looks like Julian left. But indeed Genx seems to be about the only serializer that doesn't suck as such, but e.g. PyGenx sucks a bit in itself and has a lousy Debian/Ubuntu package situation, so using PyGenx makes scripts dramatically less installable
# [21:25] <hsivonen> The Xalan folks don't seem too responsive to bug tracker items. I guess I should write my own XML serializer without trying to cover all the ground that Xalan tries to cover but fails
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# [21:29] <hsivonen> shepazu: I have a consulting relationship with the Mozilla Corporation. I'm not working on Firefox but I do have HTML5 opinions. :-) In addition to the people anne mentioned, I'd add roc.
# [21:30] <shepazu> yeah, he was already on my list, thanks
# [21:32] <hsivonen> in my personal non-Mozilla-vetted opinion, the Gecko HTML parser really needs to replaced with a clean implementation of the HTML5 parsing algorithm
# [21:32] <gsnedders> people in organisations have their own opinions!?
# [21:32] <shepazu> well, that's the point of HTML5, no?
# [21:33] <hsivonen> shepazu: yes, but that wasn't always the module owner opinion
# [21:33] <shepazu> huh
# [21:33] <hsivonen> shepazu: It has been a *long* time since I last checked the module owner opinion, though
# [21:33] <shepazu> that surprises me
# [21:34] <hsivonen> shepazu: I mean, in theory you could try to hack the old code to do new tricks
# [21:34] <shepazu> who's the owner?
# [21:34] <hsivonen> shepazu: but *I* think it would be significantly more painful than writing a new parser
# [21:35] <gavin> mrbkap (Blake Kaplan) is the owner of the HTML parser
# [21:35] <shepazu> I would expect so, assuming that it can be proven to work
# [21:35] <gavin> and afaik he was never opposed to it becoming an HTML5 parser
# [21:36] <shepazu> anyone have mrbkap's email? I don't know him
# [21:37] <gavin> mrbkap at gmail
# [21:37] <shepazu> thanks
# [21:38] <hsivonen> gavin: as I understood it, he didn't favor a rewrite almost three years ago
# [21:39] <hsivonen> gavin: but the HTML5 prospects in general were different back then
# [21:39] <Hixie> blake and i are in touch
# [21:39] <Hixie> right now mozilla is swamped with ff3
# [21:39] <shepazu> I know I have changed my opinion about the sensibility of a new parser for HTML
# [21:40] <gavin> hsivonen: ah, I see
# [21:42] <hsivonen> as an aside: the Gecko interfaces around the parsing area already don't match the expat setup which is in there despite the interface mismatch
# [21:43] <hsivonen> a pure implementation of the HTML5 parsing algorithm wouldn't fit the old interfaces either, and would probably integrate the same way as expat+sink
# [21:44] <gavin> it would certainly be a large endeavor
# [21:46] <hsivonen> porting the Validator.nu parser from Java to C would go a long way, except
# [21:46] <gavin> it would also be a pretty risky web compat change, I think - despite the large amounts of work that have gone into making HTML5's parser compatible with the web
# [21:46] <hsivonen> 1) the tree builder would have to know to do the Geckoish incremental rendering, script and style things
# [21:47] <hsivonen> 2) the main loop ownership would need to move out of the parser so that new buffers would be pushed to the parser instead of the parser pulling
# [21:48] <hsivonen> that would probably lead to keeping tokenizer state in explicit variables instead of the runtime stack
# [21:48] <anne> gavin, it would toaly be a huge risk
# [21:48] <anne> has to be done early on, basically
# [21:48] <hsivonen> anne: early in a release cycle?
# [21:48] <anne> y
# [21:50] <shepazu> possibly the only thing in that release cycle
# [21:51] <hsivonen> the risk isn't quite as huge in compat terms, since WebKit is already so close to the HTML5 algorithm and WebKit works with real content
# [21:53] <anne> WebKit does tiny things different that can have a lot of impact
# [21:53] <anne> such as </form> parsing
# [21:53] <anne> (different from HTML5)
# [21:53] <hsivonen> true
# [21:54] <gavin> "works with real content" is a not a binary state
# [21:55] <anne> it's an impression :)
# [21:55] <gavin> it's hard to compare webkit's "web compat" to mozilla's
# [21:56] <gavin> (and in general between any two browser engines)
# [21:57] <Hixie> yeah, changing the parser is a big risk/reward thing
# [21:57] <hsivonen> and as with IE, it might not be the *Web* compat but that behind the firewall no one can hear you scream...
# [21:57] <Philip> What's the reward?
# [21:57] <anne> documented code :)
# [21:57] <anne> tests, etc.
# [21:58] <hsivonen> Philip: getting more value of the SVG and MathML renderers
# [21:58] <Philip> Working code sounds much more important than documented code :-)
# [21:58] <anne> not if you need to maintain it
# [21:58] <Philip> When there's one maintainer and a hundred million users, nobody cares what the maintainer thinks
# [21:58] <hsivonen> It's really sad that Gecko's SVG and MathML are locked behind XML parsing or JavaScript
# [21:59] <Philip> We just need a JS script to enable HTML5-compatible parsing in old browsers
# [21:59] <gavin> locked bhind XML parsing I understand - locked behind JAvaScript?
# [22:00] <hsivonen> gavin: that in text/html you need something like dojo.gfx (or something like that) to use SVG and you can't just put the markup in the file
# [22:01] <gavin> oh, I'm not really familiar with dojo.gfx
# [22:01] <gavin> it creates elements dynamically, presumably?
# [22:01] <gavin> I see
# [22:02] <hsivonen> gavin: as I understand it, it creates SVG dynamically in Gecko/Opera/WebKit and VML in IE
# [22:03] <Hixie> Philip: the reward is interop with other browsers once they switch too
# [22:03] <shepazu> hsivonen: correct
# [22:07] <Philip> Hixie: Sounds like the first switcher gets no reward at all
# [22:07] <Hixie> Philip: don't underestimate the benefits of maintainability
# [22:08] <Hixie> Philip: the current mozilla code is incomprehensible to most
# [22:08] <Hixie> it needs a rewrite irrespective of html5
# [22:08] <Hixie> if we are to keep adding elements
# [22:09] <hsivonen> Philip: I agree with Hixie's assessment of the comprehensibility of the Gecko HTML parser code
# [22:09] <hsivonen> Fortunately, I've never had to deal with the tokenizer
# [22:09] <hsivonen> I have had to comprehend the tree builder
# [22:11] <hsivonen> and I must admit that I wrote the incremental XML patch without ever *fully* comprehending what I was imitating
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# [22:31] <iNoob> Would this be the place to ask a question related to HTML / Javascript?
# [22:33] <anne> depends on the question :)
# [22:33] <anne> (this is the channel of the HTML WG, one of the groups responsible for making HTML5)
# [22:33] <iNoob> oh ok, should I just ask then?
# [22:34] <anne> sure
# [22:34] <iNoob> Well, I have a link on my website with a query string of link=http://amazon.com/productcodeandstuff.. and when i click on it, I want it to open the link url in a frame def file
# [22:35] <iNoob> so that the top frame would be a back button to get back to my site, and the bottom frame would have the amazon page that i linked to.
# [22:35] <iNoob> Also, I have javascript code that I used on another page to do a similar task, except it fills in a plid number instead of a full link, and that code doesnt seem to be working on this instance
# [22:36] <anne> yeah, you want another channel for those questions :)
# [22:36] <iNoob> Ok, can you direct me to a better place to ask?
# [22:36] <anne> maybe irc://irc.freenode.org/html
# [22:37] <iNoob> ok, thank you :)
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# [22:46] * Quits: sierk (sbornema@82.83.241.74) (Quit: sierk)
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# [22:50] * Joins: paullewis (paullewis@82.242.109.217)
# [23:07] * Quits: heycam (cam@124.168.118.179) (Quit: bye)
# [23:36] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
# [23:42] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.71) (Ping timeout)
# [23:46] * Joins: smedero (smedero@66.114.145.154)
# [23:48] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.103)
# [23:49] * smedero waves to DanC
# [23:49] * smedero waves to ChrisWilson
# [23:50] <smedero> Hopefully you're in the Seattle area today Chris... it is a gorgeous day.
# Session Close: Fri Apr 04 00:00:00 2008

The end :)