/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-10-24 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Oct 24 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [09:12] * CWilso testing
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# [09:13] * timeless looks for someone who has time to pass a message to the front desk. Or provide the phone number for pullman's desk
# [09:15] <smedero> timeless, (+33)4/92977000 (according to Sofitel's website)
# [09:15] <hendry> 3/j mw4d
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# [09:16] <zcorpan> so some pages depend on < and > not being escaped in <a href="javascript:<>">
# [09:16] <hendry> timeless: try me for message, i'm in a meeting but i can pop out during the break with a message
# [09:16] <Hixie> zcorpan: how so?
# [09:16] <Hixie> how can it make a difference, i mean
# [09:16] * Parts: SallyC (sally.cain@81.253.14.17)
# [09:17] <zcorpan> Hixie: one page does a string replace on the innerHTML
# [09:17] <Hixie> oh lord
# [09:17] <zcorpan> http://www.expedia.com/pub/agent.dll?qscr=cars&itid=&itdx=&itty=&&ploc=&plo2=&flag=&subm=1&tovr=-1294637292&styp=1&locn=Denver&loid=&astr=&acty=&astt=&azip=&date1=10%2F24%2F2008&time1=660&date2=10%2F25%2F2008&time2=660&loc2=&loi2=&rdus=10&cark=1&kind=1&optn=1&vend=&fspeceq=1&rdct=1
# [09:17] <Hixie> so they want <> not escaped in attribute values in innerHTML?
# [09:17] <zcorpan> right
# [09:17] <zcorpan> apparently firefox and webkit special case javascript urls
# [09:17] <zcorpan> for innerHTML
# [09:18] <CWilso> agenda+ 9:00-9:15: Get settled
# [09:18] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
# [09:18] <zcorpan> though i'd prefer if <> never was escaped like in ie
# [09:18] * zcorpan notes that & gets escaped
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# [09:19] <CWilso> agenda+ 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec
# [09:19] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
# [09:19] <zcorpan> (except in webkit in javascript urls)
# [09:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ping
# [09:19] <CWilso> agenda+ 10:30-11:00: Coffee break
# [09:19] * Zakim notes agendum 8 added
# [09:19] <zcorpan> Hixie: should i file a bug on the spec?
# [09:19] <Hixie> i've fixed it already
# [09:19] <Hixie> checkign it in now
# [09:20] <zcorpan> cool, thanks
# [09:20] <MikeSmith> agenda?
# [09:20] * Zakim sees 8 items remaining on the agenda:
# [09:20] * Zakim 1. implicit accessibility roles [from Cynthia via DanC_lap]
# [09:20] * Zakim 2. authoring guide [from Lachy via DanC_lap]
# [09:20] * Zakim 3. authentication brainstorm 4:45pm Thu [JR/IH]
# [09:20] * Zakim 4. table headers attribute 4pm-4:45pm Thu [Joshue]
# [09:20] * Zakim 5. SVG in text/html 2pm Fri rm exec 7 [Doug]
# [09:20] * Zakim 6. 9:00-9:15: Get settled [from CWilso]
# [09:20] * Zakim 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [09:20] * Zakim 8. 10:30-11:00: Coffee break [from CWilso]
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# [09:20] <CWilso> agenda+ 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases
# [09:20] * Zakim notes agendum 9 added
# [09:20] <CWilso> agenda+ 11:45-12:30 writing test cases
# [09:20] * Zakim notes agendum 10 added
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# [09:20] <CWilso> agenda+ 12:30-14:00: Lunch break
# [09:20] * Zakim notes agendum 11 added
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# [09:21] <CWilso> zakim, close agenda item 11
# [09:21] <Zakim> I don't understand 'close agenda item 11', CWilso
# [09:21] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop agendum 1
# [09:21] <Zakim> agendum 1, implicit accessibility roles, dropped
# [09:21] <CWilso> zakim, drop agenda item 11
# [09:21] <Zakim> I don't understand 'drop agenda item 11', CWilso
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# [09:21] <CWilso> zakim, agenda?
# [09:21] <Zakim> I see 10 items remaining on the agenda:
# [09:21] <Zakim> 2. authoring guide [from Lachy via DanC_lap]
# [09:21] <Zakim> 3. authentication brainstorm 4:45pm Thu [JR/IH]
# [09:21] <Zakim> 4. table headers attribute 4pm-4:45pm Thu [Joshue]
# [09:22] <Zakim> 5. SVG in text/html 2pm Fri rm exec 7 [Doug]
# [09:22] <Zakim> 6. 9:00-9:15: Get settled [from CWilso]
# [09:22] <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [09:22] <Zakim> 8. 10:30-11:00: Coffee break [from CWilso]
# [09:22] <Zakim> 9. 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases [from CWilso]
# [09:22] <Zakim> 10. 11:45-12:30 writing test cases [from CWilso]
# [09:22] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop agendum 3
# [09:22] <Zakim> 11. 12:30-14:00: Lunch break [from CWilso]
# [09:22] <Zakim> agendum 3, authentication brainstorm 4:45pm Thu [JR/IH], dropped
# [09:22] <CWilso> zakim, drop agendum 11
# [09:22] <Zakim> agendum 11, 12:30-14:00: Lunch break, dropped
# [09:22] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop agendum 4
# [09:22] <Zakim> agendum 4, table headers attribute 4pm-4:45pm Thu [Joshue], dropped
# [09:23] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop agendum 5
# [09:23] <Zakim> agendum 5, SVG in text/html 2pm Fri rm exec 7 [Doug], dropped
# [09:23] <CWilso> agenda+ 11:45-12:30 Implicit accessibility roles (concurrent discussion)
# [09:23] * Zakim notes agendum 12 added
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# [09:23] <CWilso> agenda+ 12:30-14:00: Lunch break
# [09:23] * Zakim notes agendum 13 added
# [09:24] <CWilso> agenda+ 14:00-14:45: Review open issues from tracker
# [09:24] * Zakim notes agendum 14 added
# [09:24] <CWilso> agenda+ 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion
# [09:24] * Zakim notes agendum 15 added
# [09:25] <CWilso> agenda+ 15:30-16:00: Afternoon break
# [09:25] * Zakim notes agendum 16 added
# [09:25] <CWilso> agenda+ 16:00-17:00: SVG-in-HTML discussion
# [09:25] * Zakim notes agendum 17 added
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# [09:26] <CWilso> agenda+ 17:00-17:30: Report back from breakouts, wrap up
# [09:26] * Zakim notes agendum 18 added
# [09:26] * Julian_Reschke is now known as Julian
# [09:26] <CWilso> zakim, agenda?
# [09:26] <Zakim> I see 13 items remaining on the agenda:
# [09:26] <Zakim> 2. authoring guide [from Lachy via DanC_lap]
# [09:26] <Zakim> 6. 9:00-9:15: Get settled [from CWilso]
# [09:26] <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [09:26] <Zakim> 8. 10:30-11:00: Coffee break [from CWilso]
# [09:26] <Zakim> 9. 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases [from CWilso]
# [09:26] <Zakim> 10. 11:45-12:30 writing test cases [from CWilso]
# [09:26] <Zakim> 12. 11:45-12:30 Implicit accessibility roles (concurrent discussion) [from CWilso]
# [09:26] <Zakim> 13. 12:30-14:00: Lunch break [from CWilso]
# [09:26] <Zakim> 14. 14:00-14:45: Review open issues from tracker [from CWilso]
# [09:26] <Zakim> 15. 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion [from CWilso]
# [09:26] <Zakim> 16. 15:30-16:00: Afternoon break [from CWilso]
# [09:26] <Zakim> 17. 16:00-17:00: SVG-in-HTML discussion [from CWilso]
# [09:26] <Zakim> 18. 17:00-17:30: Report back from breakouts, wrap up [from CWilso]
# [09:26] * gsnedders could've had more breakfast if he knew nothing was going to happen
# [09:27] * Joins: ori (ori@81.253.11.187)
# [09:27] * gsnedders wonders why he is saying this on IRC
# [09:27] <CWilso> zakim, drop agendum 2
# [09:27] <Zakim> agendum 2, authoring guide, dropped
# [09:27] <CWilso> zakim, take up agendum 6
# [09:27] <Zakim> agendum 6. "9:00-9:15: Get settled" taken up [from CWilso]
# [09:27] <Lachy> gsnedders, because why bother speaking when you can just type it?
# [09:28] <gsnedders> Lachy: Why did we even bother to come to France?
# [09:28] <gsnedders> Lachy: To have somewhere warmer to sit around with laptops?
# [09:29] <Lachy> gsnedders, I came for the food
# [09:29] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/
# [09:29] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
# [09:29] <ori> I came for the deserts
# [09:29] <CWilso> zakim, next item
# [09:29] <Zakim> agendum 7. "9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec" taken up [from CWilso]
# [09:29] <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 6
# [09:29] <Zakim> agendum 6, 9:00-9:15: Get settled, closed
# [09:29] <Zakim> I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [09:29] <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [09:29] <karl> you are here together so you can hear laughters, smiles, sees, etc ;) which is quite cool in human relationships
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# [09:30] <karl> s/smiles, sees/can smile, can see/
# [09:30] <Lachy> ori, I haven't seen any deserts in france. But they do have nice desserts
# [09:30] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
# [09:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
# [09:31] <ori> Yes right :-)
# [09:31] <karl> aaaah for deserts… there are some kind of deserts in France or very dry or sandy areas.
# [09:31] <karl> Corsica for example - Désert des Agriates
# [09:31] <ori> If you want deserts you are welcome to come to my country - Israel
# [09:33] * gsnedders just accidentally tried to copy the entire spec
# [09:34] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/status.cgi?action=get-all-annotations
# [09:34] <gsnedders> I got "Error: OK (403)"
# [09:35] * timeless claims a beach is just a small desert suffering from h2o
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# [09:36] * gsnedders tries in Fx3
# [09:37] <smedero> scribe: smedero
# [09:37] <MikeSmith> scribenick: smedero
# [09:37] <gsnedders> Oh, if you use the username you put and not the email it works
# [09:37] <smedero> CW: The goal this morning is to go through the spec with an eye towards building a test suite
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# [09:38] <smedero> MikeSmith: We talked about when the TAG was here, having a rational discussion about what parts of the spec can be split out
# [09:38] <smedero> MikeSmith: Assess work effort for possible sections
# [09:39] <smedero> Hixie: I can take a action item to do that
# [09:39] <smedero> MikeSmith: We should focus now on the status part
# [09:39] <smedero> ... I can take on updating the annotations
# [09:40] <smedero> Hixie: What info do we want for a section?
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# [09:41] <DanC_lap> ah... found the annotations hacking I did; it's in http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/
# [09:41] <smedero> MikeSmith: There is one section we should talk about right now
# [09:41] <pimpbot> Title: html5/spec/ (at dev.w3.org)
# [09:41] * Joins: najib (chatzilla@81.253.19.13)
# [09:42] <smedero> ... 1.4.3 Relationship to XHTML 1.x
# [09:42] <smedero> Hixie: We are waiting from feedback from the XHTML2 WG
# [09:42] <smedero> Lachy: What were their complaints?
# [09:42] <smedero> Hixie: They didn't like it
# [09:43] <smedero> DanC_lap: We should find the email addressing their complaints
# [09:43] <DanC_lap> this one from Roland? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0264.html
# [09:43] <smedero> s/DanC_lap/DanC/
# [09:43] <pimpbot> Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-06-20 (public-html@w3.org from June 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
# [09:43] <smedero> MikeSmith: The initial objections were communicated privately to me
# [09:44] <DanC_lap> in that 20 jun msg, he accepts the ball "I will put the subject on the agenda for our WG telecon.
# [09:44] <DanC_lap> "
# [09:44] <smedero> MikeSmith: Originally they objected to language that has since been changed
# [09:44] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jul/0037.html is the latest i could find
# [09:44] <pimpbot> Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-07-31 (public-xhtml2@w3.org from July 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
# [09:44] <Julian> q+
# [09:44] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
# [09:44] <DanC_lap> "we will get back to you" -- Merrick 31 July http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0417.html
# [09:44] <pimpbot> Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-07-31 (public-html@w3.org from July 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
# [09:46] <Lachy> The other messages from the XHTML2 WG:
# [09:46] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0251.html
# [09:46] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0253.html
# [09:46] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes#item01
# [09:46] <pimpbot> Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-06-19 (public-html@w3.org from June 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
# [09:46] <pimpbot> Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-06-19 (public-html@w3.org from June 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
# [09:46] <pimpbot> Title: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF Day 3 -- 19 Jun 2008 (at www.w3.org)
# [09:46] <smedero> MikeSmith: Hixie, we need another status category in your annotation tool for sections.
# [09:46] <smedero> .... "pending feedback"
# [09:47] * Joins: anne (annevk@81.253.19.209)
# [09:47] <smedero> Hixie: I would like to add something like "controversial feedback"
# [09:47] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.14.172) (Ping timeout)
# [09:47] <DanC_lap> issue-52: "we will get back to you" -- Merrick 31 July http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0417.html
# [09:47] * @trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-52.
# [09:47] <@trackbot> ISSUE-52 Resolve XHTML2 WG objections to language in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 notes added
# [09:47] <pimpbot> Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-07-31 (public-html@w3.org from July 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
# [09:48] * Joins: bijan (bparsia@81.253.18.141)
# [09:48] <smedero> ack Julian
# [09:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:48] * anne overslept :/
# [09:49] <DanC_lap> html5 is listed in http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml too
# [09:49] <pimpbot> Title: XHTML namespace (at www.w3.org)
# [09:50] <smedero> DanC: ISSUE-52 contains pointers XHMTL 2 WG's concern with the spec language
# [09:50] <CWilso> action: ChrisWilson to suggestion text for 1.4.4
# [09:50] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [09:50] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-78 - Suggestion text for 1.4.4 [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-10-31].
# [09:50] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [09:51] <smedero> MikeSmith: Everytime I go somewhere to speak I am asked "how does XHTML 5 relate to XHTML 1 or 2"?
# [09:51] <DanC_lap> action-62?
# [09:51] * @trackbot getting information on ACTION-62
# [09:51] <@trackbot> ACTION-62 -- Michael(tm) Smith to ensure HTML WG response to XHTML 2 WG re name of XML serialization http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Oct/0385.html -- due 2008-10-02 -- OPEN
# [09:51] <@trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/62
# [09:51] <pimpbot> Title: Re: The only name for the xml serialisation of html5 from Dan Connolly on 2007-10-31 (public-html@w3.org from October 2007) (at lists.w3.org)
# [09:51] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-62 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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# [09:51] <smedero> MikeSmith: I can talk to Roland this week and see where we are at
# [09:52] <smedero> CW: 1.5 is controversial because of the name "XHTML5"
# [09:53] * gsnedders wonders about implementing html5lib in ML
# [09:53] <smedero> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [09:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
# [09:53] <smedero> rsagent, make minutes public
# [09:53] <smedero> rrsagent, make minutes public
# [09:53] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', smedero. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [09:55] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
# [09:55] <smedero> Lachy: I'm trying to find an older email where concerns were expressed about the namespace
# [09:56] <smedero> MM: I object to the namespace
# [09:56] <smedero> CW: Explain why we can't use something else
# [09:56] <smedero> Hixie: The browsers already use this namespace (in section 2.1.1)
# [09:57] <Lachy> http://html5.lachy.id.au/output?data=%3Chtml+xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fns%2Fnot-xhtml%22%3E%0D%0A%3Ctitle%3ETest%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3Etest%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Fhtml%3E&type=application%2Fxhtml%2Bxml
# [09:57] <pimpbot> Title: Test (at html5.lachy.id.au)
# [09:57] <smedero> MM: I understand that may be your goal, the namespace belongs to the W3C and XHTML
# [09:57] <smedero> MM: You're applying a different meaning
# [09:57] <CWilso> issue: Reuse of 1998 XHTML namespace is potentially misleading/wrong
# [09:57] * @trackbot noticed an ISSUE. Trying to create it.
# [09:57] <@trackbot> Created ISSUE-60 - Reuse of 1998 XHTML namespace is potentially misleading/wrong ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/60/edit .
# [09:57] <smedero> Lachy: In Firefox you get a DOM tree
# [09:58] <myakura> s/1998/1999/
# [09:58] <smedero> MM: Yesterday we had a talk with TAG about having a contract. There is an expectation with other user-agents and you're violating that contract.
# [09:58] <CWilso> action: ChrisWilson - send email to spark issue-60
# [09:58] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [09:58] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [09:58] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-79 - - send email to spark issue-60 [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-10-31].
# [09:59] <smedero> CW: We have evidence then that this section (2.1.1) is controversial
# [09:59] <smedero> MikeSmith: It might be nice to have a freeform comment field in your annotation tool
# [09:59] <smedero> Hixie: We do, it is the mailing list
# [09:59] <smedero> CW: It might be nice though to have these comments inline with the spec
# [09:59] <DanC_lap> Lachy, is the namespace name observable from tests without using the application/xhtml-xml mime type?
# [10:00] <Lachy> yes
# [10:00] <zcorpan> alert(document.body.namespaceURI)
# [10:00] <DanC_lap> ok. whew. thought I was confused.
# [10:00] <Lachy> if we were to use a different namespace for the HTML serialisation from the XHTML serialisation, then that would create problems
# [10:00] <Lachy> and we cannot get away with using a different namespace for XHTML
# [10:01] * myakura thinks if reusing 1999/xhtml is not a good practice, then xhtml2 should change its namespace too
# [10:01] <DanC_lap> seems worthwhile, to me, to capture that constraint in a test case. here's hoping.
# [10:01] <zcorpan> switching namespace is as much of a non-starter as switching all the tag names. in fact it's basically the same thing
# [10:03] * DanC_lap to which bit?
# [10:03] <smedero> MikeSmith: Moving on to review section 2.2
# [10:03] <smedero> Hixie: Conformance requirements is pretty stable
# [10:04] <smedero> DanC: I'm very much unhappy about the conformance section
# [10:04] <smedero> DanC: It is not objective, the conformance requirements depend on the mood of the author
# [10:04] <smedero> CW: I understand what you are saying, I might put it a different way
# [10:04] <zcorpan> at least if you switch all the tag names you still keep the HTMLElement interface (so class and style etc still work). if you switch the namespace it's just Element (only xml:lang etc works)
# [10:05] <smedero> ... you should raise the issue if you like
# [10:05] <smedero> DanC: I've raised it in an email before
# [10:05] <smedero> CW: You should make a recommendation with alternative language
# [10:05] <DanC_lap> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/1187.html
# [10:05] <pimpbot> Title: keep conformance objective (detailed review of section 1. Introduction) from Dan Connolly on 2007-08-30 (public-html@w3.org from August 2007) (at lists.w3.org)
# [10:06] <DanC_lap> issue: conformance depends on author's intent
# [10:06] * @trackbot noticed an ISSUE. Trying to create it.
# [10:06] <@trackbot> Created ISSUE-61 - Conformance depends on author's intent ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/61/edit .
# [10:06] <DanC_lap> issue-61: originates in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/1187.html
# [10:06] * @trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-61.
# [10:06] <@trackbot> ISSUE-61 Conformance depends on author's intent notes added
# [10:06] <pimpbot> Title: keep conformance objective (detailed review of section 1. Introduction) from Dan Connolly on 2007-08-30 (public-html@w3.org from August 2007) (at lists.w3.org)
# [10:06] <smedero> MikeSmith: What about section 2.2.2? "this section will be removed at some point"
# [10:06] <smedero> Hixie: I want to replace it with a pointer to DOM3CORE
# [10:07] <smedero> MikeSmith: What is are the asterisks on the spec?
# [10:07] <smedero> Hixie: Whenever you see those there is a red box in that section
# [10:07] * Joins: jun (fujisawa_j@81.253.11.238)
# [10:07] * Joins: chaals (chaals@81.253.23.35)
# [10:08] <smedero> CW: In section 2.3 is that really what IE does for string comparison?
# [10:08] <smedero> Hixie: Yes
# [10:09] <smedero> CW: We'll need to go through and double-check
# [10:09] <smedero> Hixie: Feedback on this section would be very welcome
# [10:10] <DanC_lap> (this string compare stuff seems straightforward to test too. but ok... I guess I'm OK to focus more on status/requirements than test-suite-building)
# [10:10] <smedero> DanC: The annotation system allows for links to test, right?
# [10:10] <smedero> Hixie: Yes
# [10:11] * Joins: marcos (marcos@81.253.23.172)
# [10:11] <smedero> MikeSmith: Who has tests for section 2.4.1?
# [10:11] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@79.138.32.15) (Connection reset by peer)
# [10:12] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@79.138.32.15)
# [10:12] <CWilso> [in section 2.3 - the issue is that IE does caseless string compares in some situations where other browsers might do ASCII case-insensitive compares. we will need to review each compare to ensure we're making the right decision.]
# [10:12] <smedero> Geoffery Sneddon: I had test for section 2.4.3 and I've just updated the annotation
# [10:12] <smedero> ... I think my test may be out of date
# [10:13] <gsnedders> s/test/tests/
# [10:13] <smedero> DanC: Someone can try to reproduce your results though
# [10:13] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.14.172)
# [10:14] <smedero> MM: Can we have pointers in the spec to open issues?
# [10:14] <smedero> Hixie: It would be hard to keep them up-to-date
# [10:14] <DanC_lap> (thousands of issues? I count 59. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues )
# [10:14] <pimpbot> Title: Issues - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [10:14] <smedero> GS: Could we have something like when a section was last edited?
# [10:14] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.14.172) (Connection reset by peer)
# [10:15] * smedero there are another 29 open issues in the w3c bugzilla system, DanC_lap
# [10:15] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.14.172)
# [10:15] * smedero plus the outstanding WHATWG issues
# [10:16] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.14.172) (Connection reset by peer)
# [10:16] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.14.172)
# [10:17] <smedero> MM: What mechanism do we have to know there are no complains?
# [10:17] <CWilso> s/complains/complaints
# [10:18] <smedero> MikeSmith: We use the w3c tracker system and the w3c bugzilla system for different groups
# [10:19] <smedero> MM: I'm not interested in the systems, what is the process used within the working group to determine stability of the spec
# [10:19] <DanC_lap> hmm... my annotations-munging code seems horked.
# [10:20] <smedero> ... how can different groups tracking the stability of individual sections? the descriptions of the editing states aren't all that helpful
# [10:21] <smedero> ... I'm used to working with a little more clarity with status levels on a document going through an editorial process. it should be more visible to members of other working groups and the public.
# [10:21] * Quits: bijan (bparsia@81.253.18.141) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [10:22] <smedero> BM: What is the process you are used to?
# [10:22] <karl> q+
# [10:22] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
# [10:22] <smedero> MM: That there is a metric to measure stability or clear definition of what the process is
# [10:23] <smedero> CW: I share your concerns but we need something flexible
# [10:23] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
# [10:23] <smedero> MikeSmith: Having some kinda of mechanism for when the status changes, would be great
# [10:23] <smedero> ... maybe we can have something like an RSS feed or something automated
# [10:24] <smedero> CW: We need some way to define what a controversial section means
# [10:24] <DanC_lap> aha... I was matching on match="h:ul[@class='toc']" and it's now an <ol>
# [10:24] * Quits: ori (ori@81.253.11.187) (Ping timeout)
# [10:25] * DanC_lap reminds karl that chrisw said he's not using the q
# [10:25] <MikeSmith> q?
# [10:25] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
# [10:25] <smedero> Hixie: The issues that have been marked controversial so far, have all been marked just today so I don't have anything other than what is in the minutes for today.
# [10:25] <MikeSmith> q+ Cynthia
# [10:25] * Zakim sees karl, Cynthia on the speaker queue
# [10:25] <CWilso> we are now using the queue
# [10:26] <Julian> q+
# [10:26] * Zakim sees karl, Cynthia, Julian on the speaker queue
# [10:26] <Hixie> q+
# [10:26] * Zakim sees karl, Cynthia, Julian, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [10:26] <CWilso> ack karl
# [10:26] * Zakim sees Cynthia, Julian, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [10:26] * Joins: cshelly (51fd1910@128.30.52.43)
# [10:26] <smedero> Karl Dubost: My impression of the process was that everything is a working draft until there are enough implementations to make a section stable
# [10:27] <cshelly> q+
# [10:27] * Zakim sees Cynthia, Julian, Hixie, cshelly on the speaker queue
# [10:27] <MikeSmith> q+ Murray
# [10:27] * Zakim sees Cynthia, Julian, Hixie, cshelly, Murray on the speaker queue
# [10:27] <CWilso> ack cynthia
# [10:27] * Zakim sees Julian, Hixie, cshelly, Murray on the speaker queue
# [10:27] <CWilso> ack cshelly
# [10:27] * Zakim sees Julian, Hixie, Murray on the speaker queue
# [10:28] <smedero> Cynthia: I want to describe some of the process we had on WCAG.
# [10:28] <smedero> ... we would send out surveys to our members
# [10:28] * Joins: tH (Rob@129.11.83.58)
# [10:28] <smedero> ... and we would discuss the survey feedback on telecons
# [10:28] <smedero> ... once consensus was reached we didn't reopen sections
# [10:29] <CWilso> ack julian
# [10:29] * Zakim sees Hixie, Murray on the speaker queue
# [10:29] <smedero> Julian: I am confused about the term "last call" on a section
# [10:29] <smedero> ... I'm not sure if it means I only have a certain time left to respond
# [10:30] <smedero> CW: It is not like "Last Call", in the capital L and C sense
# [10:30] <CWilso> ack hixie
# [10:30] * Zakim sees Murray on the speaker queue
# [10:30] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@81.253.26.204)
# [10:30] <smedero> Hixie: Right now there are 2500 outstanding emails
# [10:31] <smedero> ... we are not reopening a section when the feedback has been processed
# [10:31] <smedero> ... but often feedback comes in afterward that necessitates reopening a section (for example, security issues)
# [10:32] <smedero> ... once something is implemented interoperably we don't have much room to change
# [10:32] <CWilso> ack murray
# [10:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:32] <smedero> ... once you have implementations and people are using them we can't change them
# [10:32] <cshelly> q+
# [10:32] * Zakim sees cshelly on the speaker queue
# [10:33] <smedero> MM: There are places for the status of implementations for browsers. Shouldn't one of the status be "not applicable"?
# [10:34] <Hixie> q+
# [10:34] * Zakim sees cshelly, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [10:34] <smedero> ... the technical part might be stable but the text part might need work still
# [10:35] <smedero> ... it seems to me it would be useful to distinguish between the editor's view and the working group's view
# [10:37] <CWilso> ack cshelly
# [10:37] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
# [10:37] <smedero> ... we should leverage the semantic web resources at the w3c because it seems like this spec is a good example of an awesome semantic web application
# [10:37] <DanC_lap> (our system admin channel bot quips "sounds like a semantic web project" when asked to do something unfamiliar)
# [10:37] <MikeSmith> q?
# [10:37] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
# [10:38] <DanC_lap> [10:32] <DanC_lap> infobot, what about a better tracking system?
# [10:38] <DanC_lap> [10:32] <infobot> danc_lap: sounds like a good semantic web project
# [10:38] * Joins: darobin (robinb@81.253.27.245)
# [10:38] <smedero> Cynthia: How do you know when something is done and how do you decide when to reopen?
# [10:38] <MikeSmith> q+ Murray
# [10:38] * Zakim sees Hixie, Murray on the speaker queue
# [10:39] * MikeSmith smiles about DanC_lap/infobot comment
# [10:39] <smedero> CW: We do have a process for that. The decision making process is that editor makes a recommendation in text and we use a number of mechanism to review that.
# [10:39] <smedero> s/mechanism/mechanisms/
# [10:40] * myakura is lost. thinks we were doing some review session...
# [10:40] * CWilso was pretty sure we would get in to this, though.
# [10:40] <smedero> ...we try to have significant discussion about an issue to gauge consensus before we go to polling the working group.
# [10:40] <CWilso> ack hixie
# [10:40] * Zakim sees Murray on the speaker queue
# [10:40] <DanC_lap> fixed my code...
# [10:41] * gsnedders myakura: We're going over all of the spec and checking stability of each section
# [10:41] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@79.138.32.15) (Ping timeout)
# [10:41] <smedero> Hixie: I want to clarify a comment that Murray made between the difference on my opinion of a section and the working group's opinion.
# [10:41] <smedero> ... my opinion is based on whether or not there is outstanding feedback
# [10:42] * gsnedders Hixie: "Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!"
# [10:42] <CWilso> ack murray
# [10:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:42] <smedero> q?
# [10:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:42] * gsnedders (that's the topic in the #whatwg channel)
# [10:42] <smedero> MM: There doesn't seem to be an audit trail for feedback.
# [10:42] <smedero> CW: We do have that, there is the mailing list and issue tracking.
# [10:43] <CWilso> issue tracking in particular is the answer to the "audit trail" question
# [10:43] * Quits: jun (fujisawa_j@81.253.11.238) (Ping timeout)
# [10:43] <CWilso> q+ Murray
# [10:43] * Zakim sees Murray on the speaker queue
# [10:44] <smedero> Hixie: The reason that implementations are already an issue is because the implementors are writing code quickly
# [10:44] * CWilso apologizes for prematurely acking.
# [10:44] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
# [10:44] <CWilso> agenda?
# [10:44] * Zakim sees 11 items remaining on the agenda:
# [10:44] * Zakim 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [10:44] * Zakim 8. 10:30-11:00: Coffee break [from CWilso]
# [10:44] * Zakim 9. 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases [from CWilso]
# [10:44] * Zakim 10. 11:45-12:30 writing test cases [from CWilso]
# [10:44] * Zakim 12. 11:45-12:30 Implicit accessibility roles (concurrent discussion) [from CWilso]
# [10:44] * Zakim 13. 12:30-14:00: Lunch break [from CWilso]
# [10:44] * Zakim 14. 14:00-14:45: Review open issues from tracker [from CWilso]
# [10:44] * Zakim 15. 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion [from CWilso]
# [10:44] * Zakim 16. 15:30-16:00: Afternoon break [from CWilso]
# [10:44] * Zakim 17. 16:00-17:00: SVG-in-HTML discussion [from CWilso]
# [10:44] * Zakim 18. 17:00-17:30: Report back from breakouts, wrap up [from CWilso]
# [10:45] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
# [10:45] <smedero> ... when there is one implementation we can talk to implementor and make changes but once there are two or three implementations it becomes much harder
# [10:45] <DanC_lap> there... http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/spec/toc-status.html?rev=1.3
# [10:45] * smedero notices we have a coffee break right now
# [10:46] * CWilso has been noticing that for 10 minutes now. Whimper.
# [10:46] * JonathanJ +1 coffee
# [10:46] <CWilso> ack murray
# [10:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:46] * gsnedders thinks CWilso wants coffee
# [10:47] <DanC_lap> (which also serves as a copy of (some of the) annotation data on w3.org)
# [10:48] <CWilso> s/wants/needs
# [10:48] <Lachy> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/
# [10:48] <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
# [10:50] <CWilso> zakim, take up agendum 8
# [10:50] <Zakim> agendum 8. "10:30-11:00: Coffee break" taken up [from CWilso]
# [10:50] <smedero> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [10:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
# [10:51] <smedero> rrsagent, make public minutes
# [10:51] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make public minutes', smedero. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [10:51] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
# [10:51] * smedero grrs
# [10:51] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
# [10:52] <smedero> rrsagent, make logs public
# [10:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, smedero
# [10:52] * anne wonders where hsivonen is
# [10:52] * smedero ditto
# [10:52] * gsnedders things we don't have a list of present
# [10:52] <anne> did he go out with chaals?
# [10:53] <anne> ;)
# [10:53] <smedero> anyone else want to scribe? because uh, while this last session went on i've got some issue tracking work I need to catch up
# [10:53] <gsnedders> +present Michael Smith
# [10:53] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: draft minutes
# [10:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html gsnedders
# [10:53] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
# [10:54] <gsnedders> present+ Michael_Smith
# [10:54] <gsnedders> present+ Chris_Wilson
# [10:55] <gsnedders> someone needs to do that
# [10:55] <gsnedders> I can't recall everyone's name offhand
# [10:55] * Zakim gsnedders, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [10:59] <dom> Meeting: HTML WG
# [11:11] <gsnedders> bonjour, mes amis
# [11:13] <CWilso> agenda?
# [11:13] * Zakim sees 11 items remaining on the agenda:
# [11:13] * Zakim 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [11:13] * Zakim 8. 10:30-11:00: Coffee break [from CWilso]
# [11:13] * Zakim 9. 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases [from CWilso]
# [11:13] * Zakim 10. 11:45-12:30 writing test cases [from CWilso]
# [11:13] * Zakim 12. 11:45-12:30 Implicit accessibility roles (concurrent discussion) [from CWilso]
# [11:13] * Zakim 13. 12:30-14:00: Lunch break [from CWilso]
# [11:13] * Zakim 14. 14:00-14:45: Review open issues from tracker [from CWilso]
# [11:13] * Zakim 15. 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion [from CWilso]
# [11:13] * Zakim 16. 15:30-16:00: Afternoon break [from CWilso]
# [11:13] * Zakim 17. 16:00-17:00: SVG-in-HTML discussion [from CWilso]
# [11:13] * Zakim 18. 17:00-17:30: Report back from breakouts, wrap up [from CWilso]
# [11:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: ping
# [11:15] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop agendum 10
# [11:15] <Zakim> agendum 10, 11:45-12:30 writing test cases, dropped
# [11:15] <gsnedders> Are at 2.5?
# [11:15] <MikeSmith> agenda+ 11:45-12:30 authoring guide
# [11:15] * Zakim notes agendum 19 added
# [11:16] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop agendum 14
# [11:16] <Zakim> agendum 14, 14:00-14:45: Review open issues from tracker, dropped
# [11:16] <smedero> scribe volunteers?
# [11:18] <MikeSmith> scribenick: cshelly
# [11:19] <MikeSmith> scribe: CynthiaShelley
# [11:19] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
# [11:19] <CWilso> scribe: CynthiaShelly
# [11:19] * gsnedders notes we still don't have a present list
# [11:19] <cshelly> topic: 2.5.1, 2.5.2, 2.5.3
# [11:19] <DanC_lap> i.e. URL sections
# [11:20] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.14.172) (Ping timeout)
# [11:21] * Quits: chaals (chaals@81.253.23.35) (Quit: chaals)
# [11:21] <smedero> chair: MikeSmith
# [11:21] * Joins: bijan (bparsia@81.253.34.13)
# [11:21] * gsnedders reminds Hixie again of the #whatwg topic: "Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!"
# [11:22] <DanC_lap> would be great for somebody to pick up testing and report interop results for base uris
# [11:23] * Joins: hlee (51fd0ddf@128.30.52.43)
# [11:25] <cshelly> content type is controversial, but what parts are stable?
# [11:25] * hsivonen how do I find the room for the implicit role discussion?
# [11:26] <CWilso> chair: ChrisWilson
# [11:26] <smedero> hsivonen, I believe it is going to be in exec4, which is "upstairs"
# [11:26] * CWilso Hi Henri!
# [11:26] <smedero> (you have to go up a another flight of stairs from the lobby...)
# [11:26] <cshelly> hsivonen, we'll meet in the WG room, and then go up to exec 4 together
# [11:26] <hsivonen> smedero, cshelly, thanks
# [11:26] <DanC_lap> issue-28?
# [11:26] * @trackbot getting information on ISSUE-28
# [11:26] <@trackbot> ISSUE-28 -- Content type rules in HTML 5 overlaps with the HTTP specification? -- CLOSED
# [11:26] <@trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/28
# [11:27] * CWilso hsivonen: there's some confusion about number - it's either exec 4 or exec 7
# [11:27] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-28 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [11:27] * DanC_lap somebody help me find this blog? I'd like to send a pointer to our comments list or something
# [11:27] <cshelly> which types need to be sniffed? What are never encountered
# [11:27] * Julian wonders where mime type application/unknown comes from...
# [11:27] <gsnedders> http://crypto.stanford.edu/~abarth/research/html5/content-sniffing/
# [11:27] <pimpbot> Title: Content Sniffing Data (as of September 26, 2008) (at crypto.stanford.edu)
# [11:28] <gsnedders> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-October/016562.html
# [11:28] <pimpbot> Title: [whatwg] Mime sniffing data (at lists.whatwg.org)
# [11:30] <DanC_lap> GS: a problem with writing tests on this is that it doesn't define [missed]
# [11:30] <DanC_lap> ... I sent mail...
# [11:30] <Lachy> implementation of that content sniffing algorithm in javascript http://html5.lachy.id.au/content-sniffing/
# [11:30] <pimpbot> Title: text/html Content Sniffing (at html5.lachy.id.au)
# [11:30] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
# [11:31] * Joins: SallyC (sally.cain@81.253.14.17)
# [11:31] <cshelly> action: Hixie to look for other editor for sniffing section
# [11:31] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [11:31] <@trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Hixie
# [11:31] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [11:31] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0671.html
# [11:31] * smedero wonders if someone with access could Ian Hickson back into the tracker system
# [11:31] <pimpbot> Title: Step 10 of Feed/HTML sniffing (part of detailed review of "Determining the type of a new resource in a browsing context") from Geoffrey Sneddon on 2007-08-17 (public-html@w3.org from August 2007) (at lists.w3.org)
# [11:31] <gsnedders> That's the email I sent
# [11:32] <cshelly> action: hixie to look for other editor for sniffing section
# [11:32] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [11:32] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [11:32] <@trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - hixie
# [11:32] <CWilso> action: Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for
# [11:32] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [11:32] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [11:32] <@trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Hixie
# [11:32] <CWilso> action: ChrisWilson: Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for
# [11:32] * RRSAgent records action 8
# [11:32] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [11:32] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-81 - Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-10-31].
# [11:34] * DanC_lap where are we? I can't see at a distance... no contacts today
# [11:34] <cshelly> hixie: methods starting with xxx are temporary
# [11:34] <Hixie> DanC_lap: section 3 (of 11)
# [11:34] * Quits: marcos (marcos@81.253.23.172) (Quit: marcos)
# [11:34] * CWilso DanC - we're on section 3.1
# [11:34] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.14.172)
# [11:35] <gsnedders> http://bugs.simplepie.org/repositories/entry/sp1/releases/1.1.1/simplepie.inc#L11840 — out of date version of the content-type sniffing algorithm, but shipping
# [11:35] <pimpbot> Title: SimplePie 1.x - /releases/1.1.1/simplepie.inc - SimplePie (at bugs.simplepie.org)
# [11:35] <DanC_lap> (what happened with 2.8?)
# [11:35] <cshelly> Mike: do we actionally need section 3.1, intro to semantic structure?
# [11:36] <cshelly> Mike: sections 3 and 4 are core definitions of markup language.
# [11:37] <DanC_lap> (I'd like to see the security stuff written up in "extended abstract" form or something.)
# [11:39] <DanC_lap> Hixie: a lot of this stuff [3.2.3 Resource metadata management] is DOM level 0. [ i.e. unstandardized ]
# [11:39] <DanC_lap> Hixie: there's feedback pending on this... e.g. cookies
# [11:41] <MikeSmith> q+ Murray
# [11:41] * Zakim sees Murray on the speaker queue
# [11:41] <cshelly> Mike: web apps dependencies on HTML 5
# [11:41] <cshelly> Marcos: none on resource metatdata management
# [11:42] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@79.138.32.15)
# [11:42] <cshelly> Dan: work the interface name into the seciton title, might make it clearer
# [11:43] * smedero wonders if MikeSmith could bump up the font-size in his browser window
# [11:44] * Joins: Adam (Adam@81.253.35.150)
# [11:46] <cshelly> Dan: are global attributes interoperably implemented?
# [11:46] * Joins: marcos (marcos@81.253.37.24)
# [11:46] * Julian wonders why "dynamic markup inserion (3.7)" is a part of "Semantics and structure of HTML documents (3)"?
# [11:46] <cshelly> Hixie: no
# [11:46] * gsnedders informs marcos he has a mute button
# [11:47] <DanC_lap> Hixie: e.g. draggable has maybe 1 implementation
# [11:48] <cshelly> Julian: data attribues are soemtimes used for extensibility, but not designed to do that
# [11:50] <DanC_lap> looking at 3.7 Dynamic markup insertion
# [11:51] <pimpbot> planet: Ben on contributing to the W3C HTML WG <http://standardssuck.org/benmillard>
# [11:51] * DanC_lap didn't hear Julian say that
# [11:52] <cshelly> Dan: why is innerHTML bad?
# [11:52] <cshelly> Hixie: it's nto typed. not checking
# [11:52] <DanC_lap> (innerHTML sounds a little like eval. pointy instrument, but sometimes useful.)
# [11:53] <cshelly> Timbl: perhaps put in the spec that you shoudl only use innerHTML for balanced stuff and compile time check it?
# [11:53] <DanC_lap> +timbl
# [11:53] * Zakim wonders where timbl is
# [11:53] <cshelly> Hixie: agree in pricipal, may be hard in javascript
# [11:54] <DanC_lap> (noodling on a QA/TAG/HTML blog item on innerHTML and document.write() ... )
# [11:54] <anne> Zakim, in the room
# [11:54] <Zakim> I don't understand 'in the room', anne
# [11:54] <cshelly> timbl: document.write is much worse, not adding to the DOM
# [11:55] <cshelly> timbl: spec that whateve you put in there should correspond to a piece of DOM
# [11:55] <cshelly> hixie: timbl means something that is well formed and wouldn't throw a parse error
# [11:55] * smedero points out http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/issues/1 to DanC_lap
# [11:55] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-1 - XHTML2 Working Group Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [11:57] <cshelly> Murray: preamble: 2 years ago I was here and teh problem was social: tension btwn XML and HTML communities. GRDDL bridges the gap.
# [11:57] <cshelly> Murray: in this meeting I see that there is a big social problem btwn HTML WG and the rest of hte world
# [11:58] * marcos 1min....
# [11:58] <cshelly> here is an opportunity for Semantic Web community to help HTML WG.
# [11:58] <cshelly> problem is visibility to what is happening, how to track, etc.
# [11:58] <cshelly> other big problem is lack of resources for editing, providing technical assistance, et.
# [11:59] <cshelly> Semantic Web part of w3c all about how to relate data and such
# [11:59] * DanC_lap struggles to keep from telling stories out of school... when this WG was proposed, I asked for lots more resources to set up collaboration tools, but didn't get it.
# [11:59] * marcos 3mins
# [12:00] <cshelly> other social problem is that w3c has spent lots of resources on semantic web but there aren't real world uses that have been implemented
# [12:00] <cshelly> can't wrap my brain around why Tim is havign problems with HTML, and why HTML 5 is having problems with XML
# [12:00] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@79.138.32.15) (Connection reset by peer)
# [12:01] <cshelly> quite a few members of HTML 5 WG have deep knowledge of XML and understand problems it has for the things people and browsers want to do with HTML
# [12:01] <cshelly> quite a few XML people willing to accept that feedback
# [12:01] <cshelly> technologies shoudl work together
# [12:02] * marcos 5mins
# [12:02] <cshelly> want to put out there the idea of havign the rest of w3c community help the HTML WG work in a way that helps the process and visibility work without interferring with how HTML WG does its job
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# [12:02] * CWilso marcos - not actually helpful. I have a watch, and am paying attention.
# [12:03] * gsnedders wonders how many people here don't have a watch
# [12:03] <cshelly> tim you have all these resources on Semantic Web, can we improve the status annotation on the HTML 5 draft? Hixie has defined some things, but could be expanded. Would be really useful in all w3c specs
# [12:03] * karl didn't wear a watch for 10 years, but I have a laptop.
# [12:03] <cshelly> we're having process problems in this group, and in all groups.
# [12:04] <cshelly> Marcos: its not the tools, its the people
# [12:04] <cshelly> Marcos: could be doing it on paper
# [12:04] <cshelly> Murray: lots of resources applied to semantic web, seems that w3c applying semantic web resources to creating some tools...
# [12:05] <cshelly> Timbl: in semantic web area, people are developing specs. don't have grad students looking for work.
# [12:05] <cshelly> timbl: I can understand an argument for moving resources from Semantic Web to HTML.
# [12:06] <cshelly> timbl: another adjustment you could talk about is to have a concerted tools effort instead of human cycles
# [12:06] <cshelly> timbl: expanding this tool might be useful
# [12:06] <cshelly> timbl: neither semantic web nor tools is magic. people still need to do the work.
# [12:07] <cshelly> timbl: allowing people to extend this so people can mark what's implementation, what's authoring, allowing crowdsourcing
# [12:07] * karl notices whatever tool you built in a geek community, the geek+1 will create the n+1 version of the tool, because he/she will not be satisfied
# [12:07] <cshelly> Dan: I asked for these tools when the WG was set up
# [12:07] <cshelly> chris wilson suggests hosting a table at lunch to discuss
# [12:08] <cshelly> time to break
# [12:08] * Parts: Adam (Adam@81.253.35.150)
# [12:08] * Quits: marcos (marcos@81.253.37.24) (Quit: marcos)
# [12:08] <smedero> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [12:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
# [12:08] <karl> reconvening at 12:45
# [12:08] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
# [12:09] <karl> Meeting: HTML WG - 24 October 2008 - Technical Plenary
# [12:09] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [12:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html karl
# [12:09] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
# [12:09] <smedero> Chair: ChrisWilson
# [12:10] <smedero> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [12:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
# [12:10] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
# [12:10] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
# [12:10] <smedero> present+ Shawn_Medero
# [12:10] <smedero> present+ Ian_Hickson
# [12:10] <smedero> present+ Dan_Connolly
# [12:11] <smedero> present+ Julian_Reschke
# [12:11] <smedero> present+ Karl_Dubost
# [12:12] * Quits: myakura (myakura@81.253.12.178) (Ping timeout)
# [12:12] <CWilso> MS: Summary of where we are with Authoring Guide.
# [12:12] <gsnedders> Can we have a link in IRC?
# [12:12] <smedero> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
# [12:12] <pimpbot> Title: The Web Developer’s Guide to HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
# [12:12] <CWilso> thanks smedero.
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# [12:14] <MikeSmith> q?
# [12:14] * Zakim sees Murray on the speaker queue
# [12:14] <MikeSmith> ack Murray
# [12:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [12:15] <MikeSmith> scribenick: MikeSmith
# [12:15] <gsnedders> The document doesn't comply with ISO 2145 — Numbering of divisions and subdivisions in written documents.
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# [12:15] <karl> q+ to talk about resources constraints on this document and deadlines
# [12:15] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
# [12:15] <MikeSmith> Lachy is giving and overview of the Editor's Draft of an authoring guide that he has been working on.
# [12:15] <Hixie> (subgroup is meeting in #role)
# [12:15] <gsnedders> q+ to ask some questions about problems I see with it
# [12:15] * Zakim sees karl, gsnedders on the speaker queue
# [12:16] <karl> I have a better css.
# [12:16] <MikeSmith> Lachy: text/html examples are shown in gray, XML examples in yellow ...
# [12:16] * Parts: zcorpan (zcorpan@79.138.32.15)
# [12:17] <MikeSmith> ack karl
# [12:17] <Zakim> karl, you wanted to talk about resources constraints on this document and deadlines
# [12:17] * Zakim sees gsnedders on the speaker queue
# [12:17] <MikeSmith> q?
# [12:17] * Zakim sees gsnedders on the speaker queue
# [12:17] <MikeSmith> Lachy: recently been working on the attributes section
# [12:17] <MikeSmith> ... purpose, syntax, quoted/unquoted, examples
# [12:18] <MikeSmith> Lachy: types of content (e.g., phrasing, etc.)
# [12:18] * gsnedders will brb, he can say what he was going to at almost any point so keep him on the queue
# [12:18] <MikeSmith> ... elements section is still sketchy
# [12:19] <MikeSmith> karl: I asked Lachy what the resource constraints would be
# [12:20] <MikeSmith> ... I'm willing to spend time after the end of November on helping with this.
# [12:20] <MikeSmith> Lachy: yeah, I've asked for people to help me with this, but so far nobody did
# [12:20] <MikeSmith> karl: what about a deadline?
# [12:21] <MikeSmith> Lachy: after I get CSS Selectors API to LC, then I have more time
# [12:22] <MikeSmith> karl: I can't start working on it before the end of November
# [12:22] <MikeSmith> karl: could work full time on it for December
# [12:23] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I want to get a lot of the common elements documented
# [12:24] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: maybe a first step would be for you guys to get together and talk about high-level organization of the spec
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# [12:24] * smedero welcomes CWilso back to 12pm
# [12:25] * CWilso yeah, 3am wasn't that great, I didn't really need to revisit it.
# [12:25] <gsnedders> q?
# [12:25] * Zakim sees gsnedders on the speaker queue
# [12:26] <smedero> ack gsnedders
# [12:26] <Zakim> gsnedders, you wanted to ask some questions about problems I see with it
# [12:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [12:26] <smedero> (apparently)
# [12:27] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: [pointing out concerns about the Introduction]
# [12:27] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: the current draft seems to require too much background knowledge on the part of readers
# [12:27] * smedero wonders if the document defines who the intended audience is...
# [12:28] * Julian we're again stuck in details
# [12:29] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: it needs to make clear what's expected of the person reading it
# [12:29] <MikeSmith> Lachy: it does provide that information
# [12:30] <MikeSmith> karl: so who do you think should read the document?
# [12:30] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I think it should be something you could learn HTML from, without having [too much] prior knowledge.
# [12:31] <MikeSmith> karl: I think we should not focus too much on the Introduction.. I think we share the same goals, but we need to get to the meat first.
# [12:34] <MikeSmith> Lachy: gsnedders, how about you take a shot at rewriting the Introduction?
# [12:34] * CWilso testing?
# [12:34] <gsnedders> ack gsnedders
# [12:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [12:34] * gsnedders MikeSmith: you should probably minute my "yes"
# [12:35] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yes
# [12:35] <MikeSmith> CWilso: so it seems like we don't have anything blocking this.. just that it's clear more work needs to be done
# [12:35] * Julian wonder whether we are done...
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# [12:36] <MikeSmith> [lunck break]
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# [12:51] <pimpbot> planet: Ben Millard on contributing to the W3C HTML WG <http://standardssuck.org/benmillard>
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# [13:50] <smedero> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [13:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
# [13:50] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
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# [13:54] <smedero> In case anyone didn't catch it yet, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0089.html
# [13:54] <pimpbot> Title: notes from "implicit role" breakout session from Anne van Kesteren on 2008-10-24 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
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# [14:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: we're back in you're able to join us
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# [14:06] * gsnedders deserves an EPIC FAIL badge whenever he tries to scribe
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# [14:06] <MikeSmith> scribenick: anne
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# [14:07] <anne> scribe: anne
# [14:07] * karl thinks that the strike is only for school. Will continue to check. ping dbaron
# [14:07] <anne> [Going through sections of the HTML5 specification marking up stability of sections. Currently at section 4.]
# [14:09] <anne> JS: section 4 does not define parsing right?
# [14:09] <anne> IH: yes
# [14:09] <anne> JS: (<title> section) does it say that it is live?
# [14:10] <anne> IH: yes, different section though; should say that, if it doesn't, e-mail
# [14:10] <anne> IH: <base> section has issues
# [14:10] <anne> JS: specification doesn't define what we do?
# [14:10] <anne> IH: it says what IE7 changed to do
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# [14:12] <anne> IH: I did a study on this; didn't matter much; vast majority of the pages were spam pages or autogenerated index pages
# [14:12] <anne> JS: I'd love to remove the code
# [14:13] <anne> [<link> section marked as "last call"]
# [14:15] <anne> [<style> section]
# [14:15] <anne> HS: I thought scoped was controversial, dhyatt commented on it
# [14:16] <anne> HS: I think if dhyatt is not ok with it it counts as controversial
# [14:16] * darobin wonders if we're having a controversy over the meaning of controversial
# [14:17] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
# [14:17] <anne> DB: there was discussion in the CSSWG whether it should be matched against the root of the whole tree or the subtree
# [14:17] <anne> LH: I think it should be the whole tree, like in Selectors API
# [14:17] <anne> JS: perf implications?
# [14:17] <anne> [silence]
# [14:18] <anne> [some stuff about the CSSOM and its editor]
# [14:19] <anne> IH: <eventsource> is probably "last call" because we get implementations
# [14:19] <anne> IH: <script> probably not because <script async> is new
# [14:20] <CWilso> agenda?
# [14:20] * Zakim sees 10 items remaining on the agenda:
# [14:20] * Zakim 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [14:20] * Zakim 8. 10:30-11:00: Coffee break [from CWilso]
# [14:20] * Zakim 9. 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases [from CWilso]
# [14:20] * Zakim 12. 11:45-12:30 Implicit accessibility roles (concurrent discussion) [from CWilso]
# [14:20] * Zakim 13. 12:30-14:00: Lunch break [from CWilso]
# [14:20] * Zakim 15. 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion [from CWilso]
# [14:20] * Zakim 16. 15:30-16:00: Afternoon break [from CWilso]
# [14:20] * Zakim 17. 16:00-17:00: SVG-in-HTML discussion [from CWilso]
# [14:20] * Zakim 18. 17:00-17:30: Report back from breakouts, wrap up [from CWilso]
# [14:20] * Zakim 19. 11:45-12:30 authoring guide [from MikeSmith]
# [14:20] <anne> JS: we're implementing <eventsource>, not sure what the status is
# [14:20] <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 8
# [14:20] <Zakim> agendum 8, 10:30-11:00: Coffee break, closed
# [14:20] <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [14:20] <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [14:20] <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 9
# [14:20] <Zakim> agendum 9, 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases, closed
# [14:20] <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [14:20] <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [14:21] <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 12
# [14:21] <Zakim> agendum 12, 11:45-12:30 Implicit accessibility roles (concurrent discussion), closed
# [14:21] <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [14:21] <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [14:21] <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 13
# [14:21] <Zakim> agendum 13, 12:30-14:00: Lunch break, closed
# [14:21] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
# [14:21] <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [14:21] <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [14:21] <CWilso> agenda?
# [14:21] * Zakim sees 6 items remaining on the agenda:
# [14:21] * Zakim 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [14:21] * Zakim 15. 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion [from CWilso]
# [14:21] * Zakim 16. 15:30-16:00: Afternoon break [from CWilso]
# [14:21] * Zakim 17. 16:00-17:00: SVG-in-HTML discussion [from CWilso]
# [14:21] * Zakim 18. 17:00-17:30: Report back from breakouts, wrap up [from CWilso]
# [14:21] * Zakim 19. 11:45-12:30 authoring guide [from MikeSmith]
# [14:21] <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 19
# [14:21] <Zakim> agendum 19, 11:45-12:30 authoring guide, closed
# [14:21] <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [14:21] <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [14:21] <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 15
# [14:21] <Zakim> agendum 15, 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion, closed
# [14:21] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [14:21] <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
# [14:22] <anne> HS: are we considering header level implementation part of the <section> section?
# [14:23] <anne> IH, MS: different section, so no
# [14:26] <anne> AvK: headings and sections is not really desirable to implement because styling is not addressed
# [14:26] <anne> DB: CSS also needs changes for CSS counters and user agent style sheets will need changes for sizes
# [14:26] <anne> HS: has the CSS WG looked into that?
# [14:27] <anne> DB: no, but I have sort of a mental action item to look into that
# [14:27] <anne> LH: it would be nice if the CSS WG defined Selectors for this so you can easily select all second level headings
# [14:27] <anne> s/Selectors/selectors/
# [14:31] <anne> IH: for the <q> section we need to figure out quoting, so "working draft"
# [14:32] <anne> JS: so is that a break from HTML4?
# [14:32] <anne> IH: yes
# [14:33] <anne> IH: we're screwed either way
# [14:33] * Lachy CWilso does IE8 also support changing them with :before/:after and the CSS quotation mark properties?
# [14:34] * Joins: jun (fujisawa_j@81.253.52.142)
# [14:34] <anne> DB: Firefox does it but gets complaints from different locales because people do not agree on quotation rules
# [14:34] * Lachy CWilso also, does IE8 support both ::before and :before syntaxes?
# [14:34] <anne> CW: sigh, we did it the HTML4 way in IE8
# [14:34] <gsnedders> q:lang(en)::before { content: '"'; } — anyone agree with that? :P
# [14:34] <myakura> Lach, ::before is css3, so probably not
# [14:34] <myakura> s/Lach/Lachy/
# [14:34] * Philip tells Lachy that IE8b2 only supports one, not the other, and it's probably the single-colon one that's supported
# [14:35] * Philip could be misremembering which one works, though
# [14:35] * Lachy oh dear. Cause I use the ::before syntax on my site
# [14:35] * Lachy kicks CWilso :-)
# [14:35] <anne> [missed bits]
# [14:35] <anne> DB: so maybe we should drop support for it before IE8 does
# [14:35] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@81.253.51.90) (Ping timeout)
# [14:36] <karl> gsnedders: you meant q:lang(en)::before { content: '“'; }
# [14:36] * Philip only remembers ever seeing (in ~130K dmoz.org pages) the double-colon form on pages that anne had written :-)
# [14:36] <anne> HS: one option would be to obsolete quote and require ugly quotation marks in the rendering section
# [14:36] <karl> s/gsnedders:/gsnedders,/
# [14:36] * myakura thinks there is "quotes" property for css
# [14:36] <anne> DB: people don't agree what the quotation rules for English are at the third nested level
# [14:36] <gsnedders> karl: I did deliberately do " :)
# [14:37] * Joins: ht (ht@128.30.52.30)
# [14:37] <karl> s/karl:/karl,/
# [14:37] <anne> DB: the Bible has five levels deep and is widely translated, and different locales disagree on a lot of things
# [14:37] * karl thinks bible is a bad book to use in *any* case
# [14:37] <anne> HS: I would like to add that the Bible is a bad use case for tree based markup as it has overlapping ranges
# [14:37] <gsnedders> karl, doesn't it make no difference for non-scribes?
# [14:38] * Lachy since I've never read the bible, I'm curious what overlapping ranges there are?
# [14:38] <anne> s/on a lot of things/on the quotation rules/
# [14:38] * gsnedders hsivonen: What overlapping ranges?
# [14:38] * anne oops
# [14:39] <hsivonen> gsnedders, a verse can span a paragraph break, IIRC
# [14:39] <gsnedders> hsivonen, Yeah. Often does.
# [14:39] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2006May/0133.html for 5-nesting of quotes
# [14:39] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Deep nesting of quotes from Simon Montagu on 2006-05-16 (www-style@w3.org from May 2006) (at lists.w3.org)
# [14:39] * karl quotes become very difficult when there are more than one line. For example verse and dialogs
# [14:39] * Joins: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30)
# [14:40] * myakura that bible discussion reminds me of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Jun/0008.html
# [14:40] <anne> [text-level semantics]
# [14:40] <anne> IH: outstanding feedback on all of them
# [14:40] <anne> MS: what about footnotes
# [14:40] * DanC_lap tunes in, wondering which HTML WG stuff he should be doing
# [14:41] <anne> IH: they are conventions that people should use for footnotes
# [14:41] <gsnedders> Example of overlapping range: <http://www.ibs.org/bible/verse/index.php?q=Mark+14:64>
# [14:41] <pimpbot> Title: Mark 14:64 :: Bible Search (at www.ibs.org)
# [14:43] * CWilso @DanC, what do you mean "which"?
# [14:43] * Lachy isn't overly surprised that the selected passage is about death, but I don't understand what is meant by "overlapping ranges" in that?
# [14:43] <gsnedders> Lachy: The verse cannot be marked up as a single element because it continues beyond the paragraph break
# [14:43] <anne> IH: the <legend> element is reused and it's not clear whether that is actually possible due to legacy
# [14:43] <hsivonen> Lachy, consider both paras and verses as containers
# [14:44] <anne> JS: was this fixed in Firefox 3?
# [14:44] <anne> IH: I think it was one of the things it wasn't
# [14:44] * karl discovers http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Caslon-schriftmusterblatt.jpeg typography page example. nice.
# [14:44] <anne> IH: in Mozilla <legend> implies a <fieldset>
# [14:44] <anne> IH: other browsers just drop it on the ground
# [14:44] <anne> IH: nobody relies on this one way or another
# [14:45] <Lachy> hsivonen, ok, it makes sense if I look at it in context, and see how the passage numbers are used
# [14:45] <anne> IH: I would like not to add yet another way to mark up a heading
# [14:45] <anne> HS: I think the legacy parsing will scare away authors so I would prefer a new name
# [14:46] <anne> IH: it will hamper transition, but delaying it another couple of years is fine with me given the cost it would add to the language
# [14:47] <anne> [<img> section]
# [14:47] <anne> IH: the red box regarding longdesc is a lie, I have considered that feedback
# [14:47] <anne> DB: what about image maps?
# [14:47] <anne> IH: separate section
# [14:47] * Quits: jun (fujisawa_j@81.253.52.142) (Ping timeout)
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# [14:50] <anne> [sandboxing]
# [14:50] <anne> HS: does it work for e.g. chrome to have a separate process for the nested browsing context
# [14:50] <anne> IH: that has been taken into consideration
# [14:51] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.52.198)
# [14:53] <anne> [object and embed]
# [14:53] <anne> [how classid maps to a plugin per platform etc.]
# [14:55] * gsnedders kills web connection running svn blame on HTML 5
# [14:56] <anne> http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2008/10/html-5-video-element-examples.html
# [14:56] <pimpbot> Title: Bluish Coder: HTML 5 Video Element Examples (at www.bluishcoder.co.nz)
# [14:56] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/video-selection/
# [14:56] <pimpbot> Title: Index of /test/moz/video-selection (at hsivonen.iki.fi)
# [14:58] * Lachy CWilso I just tested IE6 and IE8b2. Both support <embed src="flash">. I assume iE7 does too, but I don't have it with me.
# [14:59] * gsnedders informs CWilso for the purpose of tagging me on Flickr that his surname is Sneddon and not Snedders
# [14:59] <anne> [going through the media element section]
# [15:00] * Philip tells Lachy that he just tried <embed src="flash"> in IE7 and that worked too
# [15:00] <anne> JS: smaug was saying loadend was not relevant
# [15:00] <anne> IH: we have load, error and abort, so loadend does make sense
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# [15:00] * Quits: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.51.117) (Ping timeout)
# [15:02] <anne> CW: what "Implemented and widely deployed" mean beyond "last call"
# [15:02] <anne> IH: yeah
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# [15:06] * Joins: sicking (chatzilla@81.253.50.158)
# [15:06] <anne> [discussion whether there should be annotations for sections that could be moved out of the spec]
# [15:07] <anne> IH: it's typically not a concrete section, but rather several sections that have to be taken out together
# [15:08] <anne> HS: for the <map> element, should we annotate it with browser support regarding HTML and XML
# [15:08] <anne> MS: we can't do that level of detail
# [15:09] * anne suggests just writing a bunch of tests and filing bugs on browsers
# [15:09] * anne ... worked for me with e.g. @namespace and media queries
# [15:12] <Lachy> scribenick: Lachy
# [15:13] <Lachy> scribe: Lachlan Hunt
# [15:13] <Lachy> MS: We could probably skip the forms section today
# [15:14] <Lachy> ... also Tables
# [15:14] <Lachy> IH: Forms has a lot of feedback pending.
# [15:14] <Lachy> ... Most feedback on tables is about headers
# [15:14] * dbaron notes the annotation stuff doesn't work in the single page document either, and there are no JS errors
# [15:15] * Lachy it works for me in Firefox 3.1
# [15:15] * Quits: SallyC (sally.cain@81.253.14.17) (Ping timeout)
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# [15:16] * Philip experiences it working in the single page version too, in Opera 9.6, though it takes an incredibly long time to load
# [15:16] * Joins: raphael (raphael.tr@81.253.11.66)
# [15:16] * Philip notes that that's the WHATWG single page version, not the W3C one
# [15:17] <Lachy> [added a few annotations to the forms and table sections]
# [15:17] <Lachy> IH: I'm hoping we'll get at least one implemented working on the datagrid section and provide feedback.
# [15:17] <Lachy> ... No-one has said it's bad
# [15:18] <Lachy> MS: Is the name of the <bb> element stable?
# [15:18] <Lachy> IH: No
# [15:18] <anne> heh, the interface name is actually BrowserButton
# [15:18] <Lachy> ... It was added in response to Apple's feedback, wanting to provide an in page way of triggering application functionality
# [15:19] * Joins: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.60.148)
# [15:19] <Lachy> JS: Why not use a JS API?
# [15:20] <Lachy> IH: It's to prevent annoying abuses that are possible with JS
# [15:20] * Philip wants a Bowser Button, which causes the UA to fire turtle shells at the user
# [15:20] <Lachy> CW: I'm not sure this is better than an API though
# [15:22] * Lachy Philip, <bb type="ninja-turtles">
# [15:22] * smedero wonders if he could bump the Bowser Button repeatedly to change the state
# [15:23] * Quits: ed (ed@81.253.13.64) (Ping timeout)
# [15:23] <Lachy> HS: How much of the rendering section will be different from the CSS appendix?
# [15:24] <Lachy> IH: Rendering is a misnomer. It contains more than just basic styles
# [15:24] <Lachy> ... There's 2 big issues: The obsolete APIs and elements, and how to map that to CSS
# [15:25] * Joins: plinss_ (plinss@81.253.53.217)
# [15:25] <Lachy> HS: My spec scraper works better when each element is defined in only one place
# [15:26] <Lachy> IH: [points out other problems that still don't solve Henri's issues]
# [15:26] <Hixie> dbaron, wfm in ff trunk
# [15:28] <smedero> Philip, did you ever file this bug properly with the IE folks? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081008#l-563
# [15:28] <pimpbot> Title: IRC logs: freenode / #whatwg / 20081008 (at krijnhoetmer.nl)
# [15:29] * Joins: ed (ed@81.253.13.64)
# [15:30] <Philip> smedero, no - I started trying to write some proper tests for all the localStorage stuff rather than reporting bugs randomly, but then I kind of got bored/lazy/distracted/busy and didn't get anywhere
# [15:30] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
# [15:30] <Philip> (Firefox had strange bugs with funny characters in globalStorage too)
# [15:31] * Joins: SallyC (sally.cain@81.253.14.17)
# [15:31] <smedero> ahh, ok. I can help out a bit if you want to (and it makes sense to) split up that work.
# [15:32] <CWilso> action: ChrisWilson to come up with a 16x16 image icon for IE for implementation chart
# [15:32] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [15:32] * RRSAgent records action 9
# [15:32] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-83 - Come up with a 16x16 image icon for IE for implementation chart [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-10-31].
# [15:34] <Philip> smedero, I started doing something based on my canvas test framework with all the canvas-specific bits ripped out, with the intention of adding storage-specific bits (like the ability to run each test on a separate domain to get independent storage areas), so I probably should try to finish that stuff, and then the actual tests should be fairly straightforward to write :-)
# [15:38] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@81.253.52.47) (Ping timeout)
# [15:39] * Quits: plinss_ (plinss@81.253.53.217) (Quit: plinss_)
# [15:41] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please make minutes
# [15:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [15:42] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
# [15:42] <MikeSmith> [afternoon break until 4pm CET]
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# [15:57] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.52.198) (Quit: JonathanJ)
# [15:58] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
# [16:05] * Quits: hlee7 (51fd330c@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
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# [16:11] * CWilso is noting a dearth of SVG people in the room.
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# [16:14] <Philip> CWilso, you could print out some SVG people from http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Human.svg
# [16:14] <pimpbot> Title: Image:Human.svg - Wikimedia Commons (at commons.wikimedia.org)
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# [16:17] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0250.html
# [16:17] <pimpbot> Title: Re: SVG in HTML proposal from Henri Sivonen on 2008-07-21 (public-html@w3.org from July 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
# [16:17] <MikeSmith> Topic: SVG in text/html
# [16:17] <MikeSmith> scribenick: MikeSmith
# [16:18] <MikeSmith> CWilso: so... SVG in text/html
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# [16:18] * anne q+ wfm
# [16:18] * Zakim sees wfm on the speaker queue
# [16:18] <Hixie> -_-
# [16:18] <sicking> ack wft
# [16:18] * Zakim sees wfm on the speaker queue
# [16:18] <CWilso> ack wfm
# [16:18] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30)
# [16:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:19] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html
# [16:19] <pimpbot> Title: SVG and HTML (at dev.w3.org)
# [16:19] <MikeSmith> q?
# [16:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:19] <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Aug/0069.html
# [16:19] <pimpbot> Title: Feedback on SVGWG's SVG-in-text/html proposal from Ian Hickson on 2008-08-28 (www-svg@w3.org from August 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
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# [16:20] <MikeSmith> shepazu: we did incorporate some feedback we got on our proposal
# [16:20] <MikeSmith> ... nothing is set in stone, we can make further refinements to the proposal
# [16:21] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: I assume it's a goal that developers should not have to rewrite scripts and such
# [16:21] * Parts: SallyC (sally.cain@81.253.14.17)
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# [16:21] <MikeSmith> aroben: yeah, issue is just about the syntax
# [16:22] <aroben> MikeSmith: hm?
# [16:22] <MikeSmith> CWilso: all comes down to the syntax
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# [16:23] <CWilso> s/CWilso/Shepazu
# [16:23] <MikeSmith> shepazu: we have disagreements about the syntax, but is there anything else?
# [16:24] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0250.html
# [16:24] <pimpbot> Title: Re: SVG in HTML proposal from Henri Sivonen on 2008-07-21 (public-html@w3.org from July 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
# [16:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: in July, I sent a message about the proposal but did not get a reply...
# [16:24] <MikeSmith> shepazu: we made some changes because of comments you, hsivonen, made
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# [16:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I was objecting to the whole premise of how the integration would be done [in your proposal]
# [16:25] <MikeSmith> ... about which tokenizer is used
# [16:25] <MikeSmith> ... I've implemented the proposal that was commented out
# [16:25] <MikeSmith> ... I estimated what work it would take to implement it in Gecko and in Java SE
# [16:26] <MikeSmith> ... and my assessment is that it's much easier in both cases to implement the commented-out proposal [from Hixie]
# [16:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I sent comments about why the SVG WG is not implementable
# [16:26] <MikeSmith> ... I fundamentally disagree with having an XML parser inside the HTML parser
# [16:26] <Hixie> q+
# [16:26] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
# [16:27] <chaals> q+
# [16:27] * Zakim sees Hixie, chaals on the speaker queue
# [16:27] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: I disagree. You've not shown that it's massively inefficient.
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# [16:27] * karl has seen a standardsuck.org where Anne was saying that parsing was not an issue.
# [16:27] <ed> q+
# [16:27] * Zakim sees Hixie, chaals, ed on the speaker queue
# [16:27] <CWilso> ack Hixie
# [16:27] * Zakim sees chaals, ed on the speaker queue
# [16:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't think I need to implement it [in order to prove it]
# [16:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie: a question that came out is a question of goals
# [16:28] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
# [16:28] <ChrisL> q?
# [16:28] * Zakim sees chaals, ed on the speaker queue
# [16:28] * karl … that rendering costs a lot but parsing was not really a performance issue
# [16:28] <Hixie> Is it a goal that anything that is functional in text/html be functional when copied and pasted into image/svg+xml
# [16:28] <chaals> q+ to talk about implementation and propose an answer to hixie
# [16:28] * Zakim sees chaals, ed on the speaker queue
# [16:28] <MikeSmith> shepazu: Hixe, do you mean anything?
# [16:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie: anything *SVG*
# [16:28] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: to the extent possible
# [16:28] <hsivonen> q+
# [16:28] * Zakim sees chaals, ed, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:28] <Hixie> q+
# [16:28] * Zakim sees chaals, ed, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [16:29] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: hsivonen makes a good point... e.g., Illustrator puts entities in
# [16:29] <chaals> ack me
# [16:29] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to talk about implementation and propose an answer to hixie
# [16:29] <CWilso> ack chaals
# [16:29] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: so losing that would be fine
# [16:29] * Zakim sees ed, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [16:29] * Zakim sees ed, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [16:29] <MikeSmith> chaals: we have not thoroughly implemented either system ...
# [16:29] <sicking> q+
# [16:29] * Zakim sees ed, hsivonen, Hixie, sicking on the speaker queue
# [16:29] <ChrisL> but i want most SVG to be usable. Some bits with entities may need modification, thats fine
# [16:30] <shepazu> q+
# [16:30] * Zakim sees ed, hsivonen, Hixie, sicking, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [16:30] <MikeSmith> ... but in our assessment, in practical terms, the two proposals will work [equally well] -- after looking at the costs .. based on a "desk check"
# [16:31] <MikeSmith> chaals: I think it is a goal that where it is feasible, you should be able to take SVG content out of text/html content, and stick it into, e.g., and editor
# [16:31] <darobin> q+ to reflect on tools
# [16:31] * Zakim sees ed, hsivonen, Hixie, sicking, shepazu, darobin on the speaker queue
# [16:31] <MikeSmith> ... we don't want to break the use case of cut-and-paste in that scenario
# [16:31] <CWilso> ack ed
# [16:31] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie, sicking, shepazu, darobin on the speaker queue
# [16:32] * anne his name is actully Erik, fwiw
# [16:32] * anne i.e. not Ed
# [16:32] <MikeSmith> ed: to me it's not a goal to allow something to be very different from the syntax we have now
# [16:32] * CWilso I knew the person was speaking was Erik - wondered who "ed" was
# [16:32] <CWilso> ack hs
# [16:32] * Zakim sees Hixie, sicking, shepazu, darobin on the speaker queue
# [16:32] * anne :)
# [16:32] <MikeSmith> ... important to stay as close as possible to what is out there already
# [16:33] * karl Ed is scalably expandable to Erik Dahlstrom
# [16:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I agree about the importance of the copy-and-paste from browser into editor
# [16:33] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.41)
# [16:33] * ed or even dahlström, if you're really correct...but ok, airline format works too ;)
# [16:33] <MikeSmith> ... but following the line of thought, it leads to breaking the fundamental permissive nature of text/html (the "host" format)
# [16:34] * CWilso "ed" is also scalably expandable to many other things. :) <-- has trouble keeping straight aliases AND real names, and wishes they were more directly mappable
# [16:34] <CWilso> q?
# [16:34] * Zakim sees Hixie, sicking, shepazu, darobin on the speaker queue
# [16:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you can get around this without making fundamental changes to HTML parsing ...
# [16:34] * chaals claims that chaals is a real name
# [16:35] * chaals (or an expletive, depending on your point of view ;) )
# [16:36] * CWilso same thing, in practical usage
# [16:36] <MikeSmith> ... some browsers allows you to [output a well-formed serialized output of the DOM]
# [16:36] <hsivonen> q+
# [16:36] * Zakim sees Hixie, sicking, shepazu, darobin, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:37] <MikeSmith> shepazu: we can't count on that functionality being available always, and don't want to spec it as a requirement
# [16:37] * Quits: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.4.198) (Ping timeout)
# [16:37] <MikeSmith> shepazu: problem case is of some of this funky [not-well-formed] SVG getting propogated
# [16:38] <karl> There is a *virtuous* circle to keep good markup or even improve it in an ecosystem.
# [16:38] <MikeSmith> ... somebody thinks it should work, but it won't
# [16:38] <CWilso> ack Hixie
# [16:38] * Zakim sees sicking, shepazu, darobin, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:38] <MikeSmith> shepazu: so your scenario [serialized DOM output] does not solve the problem
# [16:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: so we need to look as [what the problem is that we want to solve]
# [16:39] * Joins: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.4.198)
# [16:39] <MikeSmith> ... if we think that it's a goal that anything that is functional in HTML should always be functional when pasted into XML, then the SVGWG does not satisfy that requirement
# [16:40] <MikeSmith> shepazu: I think you do not require attribute quoting?
# [16:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie: correct
# [16:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie: another example is omitting the SVG end tag
# [16:40] <CWilso> ack sicking
# [16:40] * Zakim sees shepazu, darobin, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:40] <Hixie> q+
# [16:40] * Zakim sees shepazu, darobin, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [16:41] <MikeSmith> sicking: I think we [may have] incompatible goals
# [16:41] * Quits: marcos (marcos@81.253.52.47) (Quit: marcos)
# [16:41] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: being able to draw something in a drawing tool and paste it into an HTML document, yeah, of course that should work
# [16:41] <gsnedders> q?
# [16:41] * Zakim sees shepazu, darobin, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [16:42] * chaals q+ to suggest that we drop the hand-raising protocol and force people to simply remember their rebuttals and wait their turn
# [16:42] * Zakim sees shepazu, darobin, hsivonen, Hixie, chaals on the speaker queue
# [16:42] <MikeSmith> sicking: other goals are that the way that HTML authoring is done should also be OK for SVG
# [16:42] * chaals q+ to suggest that we drop the hand-raising protocol and force people to simply remember their rebuttals and wait their turn (and some other stuff about hand-coding)
# [16:42] * Zakim sees shepazu, darobin, hsivonen, Hixie, chaals on the speaker queue
# [16:42] <MikeSmith> ... but that is an incompatible goal ... string concatenation... people generating invalid markup ... writing HTML docs in Notepad, et.c
# [16:43] <CWilso> ack shepazu
# [16:43] * Zakim sees darobin, hsivonen, Hixie, chaals on the speaker queue
# [16:43] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: people do already generate SVG in those ways [using PHP, etc.]
# [16:43] <MikeSmith> sicking: we need goals
# [16:43] <CWilso> q+ to suggest that we walk through the goals and straw-poll each
# [16:43] * Zakim sees darobin, hsivonen, Hixie, chaals, CWilso on the speaker queue
# [16:43] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@81.253.52.47) (Ping timeout)
# [16:43] <MikeSmith> sicking: if we talk about requirements first, then we can work together toward a solution
# [16:44] <ChrisL> q?
# [16:44] * Zakim sees darobin, hsivonen, Hixie, chaals, CWilso on the speaker queue
# [16:44] <CWilso> ack danrobin
# [16:44] * Zakim sees darobin, hsivonen, Hixie, chaals, CWilso on the speaker queue
# [16:44] <CWilso> ack darobin
# [16:44] <Zakim> darobin, you wanted to reflect on tools
# [16:44] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie, chaals, CWilso on the speaker queue
# [16:44] <MikeSmith> darobin: about the goals thing ...
# [16:44] <MikeSmith> ... everyone agrees that we want to have SVG in HTML
# [16:44] <MikeSmith> ... the editor vendors will make it happen ...
# [16:45] <MikeSmith> ... it will be cheap to add an HTML5 parser to an editing application
# [16:45] <MikeSmith> ... currently, SVG is being produced by [people who are more XML-aware]
# [16:45] <CWilso> ack hs
# [16:45] * Zakim sees Hixie, chaals, CWilso on the speaker queue
# [16:46] <MikeSmith> ... but once SVG gets very widely used, [the "funky" instances of it] will increase, and we will have to deal with them
# [16:46] * darobin thinks UI is out of the picture, is certain we'll have the tools anyway
# [16:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think our goal should be that browsers will have the UI [for outputting a serialized DOM]
# [16:47] <CWilso> q?
# [16:47] * Zakim sees Hixie, chaals, CWilso on the speaker queue
# [16:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: browsers already have a different parser for text/html and XML, so...
# [16:48] <CWilso> ack hixie
# [16:48] * Zakim sees chaals, CWilso on the speaker queue
# [16:49] <anne> hsivonen, I think the point from Chris Lilley is that nobody has implemented the proposal from the SVG WG yet so in theory it is unclear which one is simpler; though you did point out you thought it was sort of "doomed" the way it is currently written
# [16:49] <MikeSmith> ... suggesting that they wouldn't do so seems weird because they are already doing it
# [16:49] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@81.253.7.45)
# [16:50] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think it is possible to avoid allowing "tag soup" parsing support for SVG ...
# [16:50] <shepazu> q+
# [16:50] * Zakim sees chaals, CWilso, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [16:50] <MikeSmith> ... but we don't have agreement about that being a reasonable goal
# [16:50] <CWilso> ack ch
# [16:50] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to suggest that we drop the hand-raising protocol and force people to simply remember their rebuttals and wait their turn and to suggest that we drop the
# [16:50] <Lachy> Just in regards to the UI suggestion from Henri, I just want to point out that there are several alternatives besides providing a way to get the DOM source, such as simply using "Save Image As..." to export a well-formed, re-serialised copy of the image to an SVG file.
# [16:50] <Zakim> ... hand-raising protocol and force people to simply remember their rebuttals and wait their turn (and some other stuff about hand-coding)
# [16:50] * Zakim sees CWilso, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [16:51] <MikeSmith> chaals: our experience is that by-and-large, the quality of SVG has improved over time ...
# [16:51] <MikeSmith> ... due to it being a goal that we enforce quality requirements
# [16:51] <MikeSmith> ... majority case is drawing tools, yeah ...
# [16:51] * Quits: r12a (rishida@81.253.4.143) (Client exited)
# [16:51] <MikeSmith> ... but they are also generating using PHP, whatever ...
# [16:52] <MikeSmith> ... and they do go back and fix their code [if it turns out it's not producing well-formed SVG]
# [16:52] <MikeSmith> ... we do see it as a goal to keep SVG parsing strict ...
# [16:53] <MikeSmith> ... tools for SVG have remained high-quality ...
# [16:53] * CWilso begins to wonder if he should impose time limit on q turns...
# [16:53] <MikeSmith> ... we don't see it as a goal to make the [SVG content] crappier than it already is ...
# [16:53] <MikeSmith> chaals: an area where that's important is mobile
# [16:53] <MikeSmith> ... whilst that world is also changing ...
# [16:53] <sicking> q+
# [16:53] * Zakim sees CWilso, shepazu, sicking on the speaker queue
# [16:53] <hsivonen> q+ to talk about mobile
# [16:53] * Zakim sees CWilso, shepazu, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:54] * darobin points out that the last session of the last day of the last meeting has severe time dilation effects, so that would be unlikely to work
# [16:54] <MikeSmith> ... proper browsers being deployed ...
# [16:54] * CWilso thinks but it would make for a fun time.
# [16:54] <CWilso> ack mew
# [16:54] * Zakim sees CWilso, shepazu, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:54] <MikeSmith> ... but to blow that off -- to allow [become more tolerant of] crappy SVG code
# [16:54] <CWilso> ack me
# [16:54] <Zakim> CWilso, you wanted to suggest that we walk through the goals and straw-poll each
# [16:54] * Zakim sees shepazu, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:54] <MikeSmith> ... [we don't want to do that]
# [16:55] <MikeSmith> CWilso: so can we look at the set of goals?
# [16:55] <ChrisL> q?
# [16:55] * Zakim sees shepazu, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:55] <ChrisL> q+
# [16:55] * Zakim sees shepazu, sicking, hsivonen, ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [16:55] <MikeSmith> [we have only 10 minutes left]
# [16:55] <Hixie> goals: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Aug/0069.html
# [16:55] <pimpbot> Title: Feedback on SVGWG's SVG-in-text/html proposal from Ian Hickson on 2008-08-28 (www-svg@w3.org from August 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
# [16:55] * Joins: pfps (chatzilla@81.253.13.120)
# [16:55] * darobin likes how Doug starts all his interventions by stating how brief they're going to be
# [16:56] <CWilso> ack sicking
# [16:56] * Zakim sees shepazu, hsivonen, ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [16:56] * CWilso wonders if that was all Doug wanted to say?
# [16:56] <MikeSmith> sicking: concerned about having a requirement about strict parsing ...
# [16:56] <Hixie> darobin: eh, i start all mine by saying "i, er, i think, there is, hm, if we, hm, ..." ;-)
# [16:57] <shepazu> me that's because I usually go on for half an hour :)
# [16:58] <MikeSmith> ... is [the problem of unstable equilibrium which we have learned] that there is a risk it will just not happen that way in the long run
# [16:58] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: is it a goal to stop people from putting in well-formed content?
# [16:58] <CWilso> * It should be possible to drop an SVG file from a graphic editor into an
# [16:58] <CWilso> HTML5 document sent as text/html and usually have it validate and work.
# [16:59] <MikeSmith> [everybody expresses agreement that we don't want to penalize anybody for having WF-content]
# [16:59] <CWilso> * The DOM aspect of this should be very similar to using SVG in XHTML, so
# [16:59] <CWilso> that there is no work required beyond parser changes for text/html.
# [16:59] <MikeSmith> [agreement within rough consensus?]
# [16:59] <ChrisL> (whether it validates or not is irrelevant to me, but it should render as expected)
# [17:00] <CWilso> * The DOM aspect of this should be very similar to using SVG in XHTML, so
# [17:00] <ChrisL> I'm glad that penalising WF is not a goal
# [17:00] <CWilso> that there is no work required beyond parser changes for text/html.
# [17:00] <MikeSmith> [agreement from all]
# [17:00] <CWilso> * Changes to the parser should be relatively small and localised. For
# [17:00] <CWilso> example, it should double the number of states in the tokeniser, or add
# [17:00] <CWilso> half a dozen tree construction insertion modes.
# [17:00] <CWilso> s/double/not double
# [17:01] <CWilso> * The parsing model should be very light-weight. It shouldn't require,
# [17:01] <CWilso> for example, extra buffering, or parsing text twice.
# [17:01] <dbaron> s/double/not double/
# [17:01] * dbaron thinks the final slash is needed for s/// commands
# [17:01] * CWilso thx
# [17:02] * Joins: r12a (rishida@81.253.4.143)
# [17:02] <MikeSmith> shepazu: I don't strongly oppose this goal.
# [17:02] <r12a> s/not not double/not double/
# [17:02] <MikeSmith> chaals: the underlying goal is that the processing is reasonably efficient
# [17:03] <MikeSmith> ... the stated goal has more implementation detail in it than needed
# [17:03] <MikeSmith> [no broad consensus on this goal]
# [17:03] <CWilso> * The markup should be as easy to edit by hand as regular HTML, modulo
# [17:03] <CWilso> complications due to the vocabulary itself.
# [17:03] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: it over-constrains implementations
# [17:04] * Quits: chaals (chaals@81.253.5.24) (Quit: chaals)
# [17:04] * anne agrees with the cool
# [17:04] <MikeSmith> CWilso: "as small as an elephant"
# [17:04] <hsivonen> I agree with the goal
# [17:04] * anne oops
# [17:04] * anne s/cool/goal/
# [17:04] * anne nominates himself for typo of the year
# [17:04] * Quits: darobin (robinb@81.253.52.180) (Ping timeout)
# [17:04] <MikeSmith> [broad consensus]
# [17:04] <CWilso> * The syntax shouldn't introduce two different syntaxes for HTML
# [17:04] <CWilso> elements in text/html. For example, it should be possible to take a big
# [17:04] <CWilso> blob of existing HTML, and wrap it in a <foreignObject> and have it
# [17:04] <CWilso> just work, without having to fix up missing end tags or namespace
# [17:04] <CWilso> declarations or whatever.
# [17:05] <MikeSmith> [agreement]
# [17:05] <CWilso> * If possible, the same mechanism should work for both MathML and SVG,
# [17:05] <CWilso> and it should make it relatively easy to introduce other vocabularies
# [17:05] <CWilso> in future, at least for vocabularies designed with this mechanism in
# [17:05] <CWilso> mind.
# [17:05] * dom indicates trailing / is not required on s/ commands with RRSagent, fwiw
# [17:06] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: problematic
# [17:06] * Joins: fsasaki (chatzilla@mcclure.w3.org)
# [17:07] <CWilso> * Markup seen on real pages today, and errors of a similar vain,
# [17:07] <CWilso> shouldn't result in dramatically different renderings in browsers that
# [17:07] <CWilso> support this feature.
# [17:07] <CWilso> s/vain/vein/
# [17:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: this is the "don't break legacy pages" requirement
# [17:08] <MikeSmith> ed: the question is "At what cost?"
# [17:09] <ChrisL> depends on which broken pages you want to preserve.
# [17:09] <MikeSmith> shepazu: some of your pages that you [Hixie] gave as examples are [totally broken]
# [17:09] * Quits: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.4.198) (Ping timeout)
# [17:10] * Parts: pfps (chatzilla@81.253.13.120)
# [17:10] <MikeSmith> [discussion about whether it's feasible to do educate/evangelize to get people to fix their broken content
# [17:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: this a the single most important requirement from the POV of the Chrome team
# [17:11] * gsnedders Lachy: You just turned power off with your foot
# [17:11] * gsnedders Lachy: Like, the switch on the extension
# [17:12] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: SVG pages which currently work -- which produce some useful output -- should continue working
# [17:12] <Hixie> http://puysl.com/view.htm
# [17:12] <pimpbot> Title: New Page 1 (at puysl.com)
# [17:12] <Hixie> ^ that one
# [17:12] * CWilso what I thought was cool is it's a power chain - you shut off smedero and hixie's power too
# [17:12] * gsnedders and the final extension one which nobody uses ;P
# [17:12] * ed thinks CL said svg *and HTML* pages which currently work...etc
# [17:13] * CWilso heard that too
# [17:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: [describes a cargo-cult copy-and-paste scenario
# [17:13] * karl each time I hear hsivonen saying real people, I always wonder what is false people
# [17:13] <CWilso> We must not require users to declare namespace prefixes correctly.
# [17:13] <MikeSmith> sicking: I want to find out how common [the case is that we currently are discussing]
# [17:14] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: I would like this clarified.
# [17:14] <Lachy> q+
# [17:14] * Zakim sees shepazu, hsivonen, ChrisL, Lachy on the speaker queue
# [17:14] <Lachy> q-
# [17:14] * Zakim sees shepazu, hsivonen, ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [17:15] <Lachy> q+
# [17:15] * Zakim sees shepazu, hsivonen, ChrisL, Lachy on the speaker queue
# [17:15] <MikeSmith> CWilso: so you can have an svg element and all its children without the namespace
# [17:15] <CWilso> * If possible, we shouldn't expose users to namespace syntax at all,
# [17:15] <CWilso> though the DOM still needs to expose the namespaces.
# [17:15] <MikeSmith> ... that should be allowed ...
# [17:15] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: but it should not disallow the namespaces
# [17:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: one issue is, should it render as SVG if you have a namespace, but it's the wrong namespace?
# [17:16] <CWilso> Hixie: we should definitely allow the xmlns case.
# [17:17] <Lachy> ack Lachy
# [17:17] * Zakim sees shepazu, hsivonen, ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [17:18] <MikeSmith> sicking: seems like the third issue [wrong namespace] is the only one we don't have agreement on
# [17:18] * Joins: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@92.228.16.203)
# [17:19] * gsnedders points out there are also non-goals in Hixie's email
# [17:19] <MikeSmith> sicking: do we want it to be possible to use an off-the-shelf XML parser?
# [17:19] * CWilso I know, gsnedders - but we're 12min over time as it is.
# [17:19] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.230.135.158) (Ping timeout)
# [17:19] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
# [17:20] <MikeSmith> sicking: are we OK to restricting ourselves to non-off-the-shelf XML parsers?
# [17:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the problem is, that presupposes part of the solution?
# [17:21] * Quits: r12a (rishida@81.253.4.143) (Client exited)
# [17:21] <MikeSmith> sicking: if I as an implementor am not OK with writing my own XML parser, than that excludes [some implementors]
# [17:21] <CWilso> q?
# [17:21] * Zakim sees shepazu, hsivonen, ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [17:22] <smedero> q?
# [17:22] * Zakim sees shepazu, hsivonen, ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [17:22] <MikeSmith> Hixie: writing your own XML parser is not a small and localized change
# [17:23] <MikeSmith> CWilso: I think we are narrowing down to get an idea of where the disagreements about goals are.
# [17:23] <shepazu> * It is not a goal that any valid SVG file must be embeddable in
# [17:23] <shepazu> text/html. (Only the syntax that is actually widely used need be
# [17:23] <shepazu> supported.)
# [17:24] <MikeSmith> shepazu: this is not talking about whitelisting?
# [17:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: this is about SVG that uses namespace prefixes or that use an DTD internal subset
# [17:25] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: only place I see people using prefixes in SVG is in compound documents
# [17:25] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
# [17:25] * Joins: r12a (rishida@81.253.4.143)
# [17:25] <MikeSmith> shepazu: OK, I don't think this is controversial
# [17:26] <MikeSmith> [strong consensus that this is a non-goal]
# [17:26] <shepazu> * It is not a goal that anything that is valid text/html be valid
# [17:26] <shepazu> image/svg+xml. In particular, whether to use case-sensitive or case-
# [17:26] <shepazu> insensitive tag and attribute names at the syntax level should be
# [17:26] <shepazu> driven from implementation performance choices, not conformance.
# [17:27] <MikeSmith> shepazu: case sensitivity...
# [17:27] <MikeSmith> ... related to error-correction
# [17:27] <Hixie> q+
# [17:27] * Zakim sees shepazu, hsivonen, ChrisL, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [17:27] <CWilso> ack sh
# [17:27] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisL, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [17:27] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: if you're allowed to doing the stuff that the SVG spec says, or corrects it to conform to the SVG spec, then fine
# [17:28] <CWilso> ack hs
# [17:28] <Zakim> hsivonen, you wanted to talk about mobile
# [17:28] * Zakim sees ChrisL, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [17:28] <CWilso> ack Ch
# [17:28] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
# [17:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the performance issue here is very important
# [17:29] * gsnedders dislikes having water now
# [17:29] <MikeSmith> anne: we've had no implementations of the SVGWG proposal, [so we don't have any data]
# [17:29] <karl> the debate on performance should be really put aside before having real data on the table for the two options
# [17:30] <MikeSmith> shepazu: how about if the spec says it's strongly recommended or "SHOULD" that authors should try to [follow XML well-formedness constraints]
# [17:30] <CWilso> ack hixie
# [17:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:30] <sicking> q+
# [17:30] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [17:31] <CWilso> ack s
# [17:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:31] <hsivonen> q+
# [17:31] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:32] <MikeSmith> sicking: requiring the SVG parts to be totally XML-compliant is fine... but authors are going to do whatever ends up working in browsers
# [17:33] <MikeSmith> [discussion about the fact that quotes are in fact needed even in some cases in text/html]
# [17:33] <MikeSmith> ChrisL: "quotes are not required except when they are"
# [17:34] * gsnedders guesses he's a newbie to HTML
# [17:34] <smedero> q?
# [17:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:34] <sicking> q?
# [17:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:34] <MikeSmith> q?
# [17:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:34] <Hixie> q?
# [17:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:34] <CWilso> ack h
# [17:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:35] * gsnedders wonders what quote character he's meant to use
# [17:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm not fine with requiring that a parser used for a validator be different from the parser used by validators.
# [17:36] <karl> q+
# [17:36] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
# [17:36] <MikeSmith> s/used by validators/used by browsers/
# [17:36] <MikeSmith> Murray: are there levels of conformance?
# [17:36] * olivier disagrees with henri, fwiw
# [17:36] * olivier thinks these are very different classes of products
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> karl: people will always choose the more liberal choice
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> CWilso: they will choose random levels
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> q?
# [17:37] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> ack karl
# [17:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:37] <CWilso> q+ to say go home. Get out.
# [17:37] * Zakim sees CWilso on the speaker queue
# [17:38] * gsnedders thinks CWilso wants /mute in F2F
# [17:38] <MikeSmith> sicking: majority of people test it in a browser, if it works, OK
# [17:38] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@81.253.50.57) (Quit: leaving)
# [17:38] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
# [17:38] * CWilso if only...
# [17:38] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please make minutes
# [17:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [17:38] * fsasaki rrsagent, where am I?
# [17:38] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
# [17:38] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-irc#T15-32-08-1
# [17:38] <sicking> last post!
# [17:38] <gsnedders> last + 1 post!
# [17:38] <anne> o_O
# [17:38] * smedero groans
# [17:39] * Quits: CWilso (cwilso@81.253.50.40) (Quit: CWilso)
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# [17:41] <MikeSmith> [we wrap up in the company of members of the SVG WG]
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# [18:29] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please make minutes
# [18:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
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# Session Close: Sat Oct 25 00:00:01 2008

The end :)