/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2014-04-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 28 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  17. # [10:54] <SteveF> darobin: morning, failing to understand why we are resetting native headings with ARIA in respec - https://github.com/darobin/respec/issues/308
  18. # [10:56] <darobin> SteveF: I have no idea, I never touched any of that code
  19. # [10:57] <SteveF> darobin: right, it's shane, what I have asked for is at the least a pref flag so it can be turned off
  20. # [10:57] <darobin> I'm pretty sure that can be done
  21. # [10:57] <darobin> but ideally I'd like it to do the right thing by default
  22. # [10:58] <darobin> I think we're probably generating too much ARIA information, no? it seems to me like HTML's own semantics ought to be enough in at least some of those cases
  23. # [10:58] <SteveF> darobin: yes, if i as an author/editor code headings correct as per html5 would like them to be honoured
  24. # [11:00] <darobin> SteveF: mmmm, <h*> will always be rewritten in ReSpec regardless of ARIA usage
  25. # [11:00] <SteveF> if the heading levels reflect the nesting levels (sans empty section nesting) then it is enough
  26. # [11:03] <SteveF> darobin: where is the logic coded for the heading reset?
  27. # [11:09] <darobin> SteveF: you mean for rewriting hN to whatever is appropriate for the <section> depth?
  28. # [11:10] <SteveF> darobin:yes
  29. # [11:10] <darobin> I'm guessing in core/structure
  30. # [11:10] <darobin> I don't think that should be changed
  31. # [11:10] <darobin> it's entirely dependent on the <section> depth, and those are semantics I like
  32. # [11:10] <SteveF> OK will look, there is a bug in the outline depth calc
  33. # [11:11] <SteveF> in html5
  34. # [11:11] <SteveF> that I think needs considering
  35. # [11:14] <SteveF> when I can get to bugzilla will find it
  36. # [11:15] <SteveF> looks like w3 bugzilla down - Software error
  37. # [11:17] <SteveF> darobin: anyway here is link to bug I am talking about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25393
  38. # [11:18] <darobin> ta
  39. # [11:18] <SteveF> discussion with hixie on cloned https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25394
  40. # [11:25] <SteveF> essentially empty sectioning elements result in gaps in heading level nesting - given that empty sections are not conveyed, (coz their announcement is a known pain in the arse for users) ends up with wonky in page outline
  41. # [11:26] <darobin> yeah
  42. # [11:26] <darobin> IIRC ReSpec handles that by complaining about empty sections (it assumes they all have an hN)
  43. # [11:27] <SteveF> ok
  44. # [11:32] <SteveF> darobin: there are cases where a section element without a headings is reasonable, in those cases an accessible name (e.g. aria-label) on the section element is recommended - thats what epub says anyway
  45. # [11:34] <SteveF> darobin: FYI there has been quite a bit of feedback on implementing the doc outline on bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25003
  46. # [11:37] <darobin> SteveF: yeah, in the general case there are good use cases, but I don't think that's the case for specs
  47. # [11:37] <darobin> I want to keep ReSpec to simple, limited conventions as much as possible
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  49. # [11:39] <SteveF> darobin: i got hoisted on a petard for not filing browser bugs on doc outline - (so i did). Was going on what browser acc engineers had commented on the spec bug, which apparently a breach of protocol to some.
  50. # [11:39] <darobin> weird
  51. # [11:40] <SteveF> no just poltitics
  52. # [11:44] <SteveF> darobin: " yeah, in the general case there are good use cases, but I don't think that's the case for specs" cool
  53. # [11:45] <SteveF> agree keeping it simple, which is why i was bemused by provision of a different acc layer outline
  54. # [11:50] <darobin> yeah :)
  55. # [12:16] <SteveF> one thing that became clear to me from discussion on bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25003 and elsewhere http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/accessibility/20140423#l-88 is that acc layer only implementation of the outline is not a practical solution at this time
  56. # [12:21] <SteveF> darobin: so I want to make edit to CR without it being in 5.1 do i edit/push the CR branch or leave it to you?
  57. # [12:41] <darobin> SteveF: please run any CR-only change by me first!
  58. # [12:41] <darobin> a PR can work for instance
  59. # [12:41] <darobin> the CR draft really shouldn't be changing at this point
  60. # [12:42] <SteveF> OK will PR you
  61. # [12:43] <SteveF> "please run any CR-only change by me first!" that's why i asked :-)
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  92. # [17:23] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html-tools] darobin pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/html-tools/compare/1b22463d6c63...05e7ebcadb37
  93. # [17:23] -gitbot:#html-wg- html-tools/master 843ba53 Robin Berjon: change at risk features in boilerplate
  94. # [17:23] -gitbot:#html-wg- html-tools/master 05e7ebc Robin Berjon: remove old canvas branch
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  97. # [17:49] <SteveF> MikeSmith: https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/460806036744843265 seems suboptimal
  98. # [17:54] <jgraham> SteveF: Why do you think that the spec is wrong?
  99. # [17:55] <jgraham> AFAICT it says that the heading there is the <h1> element, but doesn't say how to extract the text
  100. # [17:55] <jgraham> s/1/x/
  101. # [17:55] <SteveF> jgraham: don't know whether its spec or implementation
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  103. # [17:56] <SteveF> but implementations all do similar thing
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  105. # [17:57] <jgraham> Which implementations?
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  107. # [18:02] <SteveF> http://validator.w3.org/nu/, H50
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  109. # [18:06] <SteveF> h50 reports "No text content inside H1" for example
  110. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> gsnedders outline implementation actually uses the alt text in that case, iirc
  111. # [18:09] <SteveF> MikeSmith: why not your implementation?
  112. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> because it's not in the spec
  113. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> and my implementation follows the spec
  114. # [18:12] <SteveF> i think we have had this discussion before, but i forgot...
  115. # [18:12] <SteveF> but the spec does not say you should/must not does it?
  116. # [18:13] <SteveF> is what constitutes the content of a heading in this case actually defined?
  117. # [18:14] <jgraham> MikeSmith: The spec doesn't say either way does it? Or am I missing something?
  118. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> it says the text content of the heading
  119. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> somewhere
  120. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> it doesn't provide for an option to free-style choose somewhere else to construct the text from
  121. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> it seems reasonable to have the spec be refined to explicitly state that the alt text from an img can be used if the text content of the heading is empty
  122. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> but what the spec requires now is that if the text content of the heading of a section is empty, then nothing for that sectiong goes into the resulting outline
  123. # [18:29] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I don't see that in the spec. What am I missing?
  124. # [18:30] <SteveF> MikeSmith: I couldn't find it either
  125. # [18:31] <SteveF> but it does allow UAs to make up default headings as they see fit "These default headings ("Untitled document", "Navigation", "Sidebar") are not specified by this specification, and might vary with the user's language, the page's language, the user's preferences, the user agent implementor's preferences, etc."
  126. # [18:33] <SteveF> in effect it does provide for an option to free-style choose somewhere else to construct the text from
  127. # [18:35] <SteveF> but anyway it is a failing of the spec not to clearly define what constitutes heading text for the purpose of generating an outline
  128. # [18:35] <SteveF> and to take into account common usage of images etc in <hx>
  129. # [18:37] <SteveF> JonathanNeal has filed a bug on it
  130. # [18:38] <jgraham> I suspect that the argument you will get is that it's a UI thing and so it doesn't have to be defined
  131. # [18:39] <jgraham> For example a valid implementation of the current spec would be to show the image in the case of <h1><img>
  132. # [18:39] <jgraham> Which seems fine
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  136. # [20:02] <SteveF> jgraham: MikesSmith "The spec says what the "img" element represents (the image or its alternative text). If there are browsers or other UAs that don't implement this correctly, I recommend filing bugs on them." https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25493
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The end :)