/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2012-12-02 / end

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# Session Start: Sun Dec 02 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #microformats
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# [00:45] <@tantek> whoa that's awesome Tom Morris, just saw your wiki edit
# [00:45] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:Nhidbf199]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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# [00:46] <@tantek> 1.7 billion nodes with geo?!?
# [00:46] <@tantek> wow
# [00:46] <@tantek> you'll have to let me know how many named venues you find
# [00:50] <@tantek> in looking at http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1789070056 - it looks like the "designation" comma delimited list could be marked "category" for each item, and shop could be a "category" as well
# [01:05] <tommorris> tantek: I can tell you how many named objects there are.
# [01:06] <tommorris> tantek: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/ says the name tag is on 32.8 million objects
# [01:07] <tommorris> named nodes which are more likely to fit the hcard semantics are 7.52 million
# [01:07] <@tantek> a-ha, great
# [01:07] <@tantek> happy to help figure out the markup too
# [01:08] <tommorris> I'm gonna have a go at doing a mixture of microformats and RDFa.
# [01:08] <@tantek> we may want to consider some "proprietary" properties to reflect the OSM-specific fields
# [01:08] <@tantek> in uf2, you can do that e.g. p-orgprefix-propertyname
# [01:08] <@tantek> e.g. p-osm-designation
# [01:08] <@tantek> p-osm-shop
# [01:08] <@tantek> *in addition* to marking those as categories
# [01:09] <tommorris> so, the wikipedia links, for instance, can easily be mapped to both hCard's url property and do some linked data sameAs magic to dbpedia
# [01:09] <tommorris> if I can work out a sane and not-too-disruptive way of adding hCard, I'll have a crack at it tomorrow. certainly, it'd make sense for node venues
# [01:09] <@tantek> I'd be curious to know what functionality RDFa would add in addition to the uf2 markup - or if it's just to be multimarkup supportive and all that.
# [01:10] <tommorris> https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/173
# [01:11] <tommorris> that is just replicating in RDFa what is there in the geo uf.
# [01:12] <tommorris> there are plenty of properties where there are existing places that can be linked to.
# [01:13] <@tantek> ok cool - just supporting multiple markups then
# [01:13] <@tantek> if you do run across functionality in RDFa in real world examples like OSM that you can't do with uf2, I'd be very interested to hear about it.
# [01:13] <tommorris> well, there are plenty of OSM properties that are basically pointers to other datasets. the linked data toolset works pretty well for those
# [01:14] <@tantek> I guess what I don't get about that is, isn't that just URLs?
# [01:14] <@tantek> like just saying this is a URL for this thing
# [01:14] <tommorris> sure.
# [01:14] * @tantek still doesn't get the utility of "linked" data per se
# [01:15] <tommorris> simple merging.
# [01:15] <@tantek> ok, so as long as you can just specify the "url" property, you're good
# [01:17] <tommorris> so, a really quite fucked-up use case is there are sometimes government datasets that use some kind of unique identifier that doesn't match up to a URI. being able to express the semantics of that (that it is, say, an inverse functional property and all that kind of stuff) means you can do some sanity checking on it at a later date.
# [01:17] <tommorris> (and, yes, "it lets you describe other people's shitty data better" is hardly the most compelling use cases for upper-case SemWeb)
# [01:19] <tommorris> also, an interesting issue: have we yet worked out how to do multi-lingual microformats?
# [01:20] <@tantek> what's the real world example you're trying to mark up?
# [01:20] <@tantek> don't all unique identifiers match up to a URI with some made-up scheme?
# [01:21] <tommorris> <div class="h-adr"><span class="p-locality" lang="fr">Bruxelles</a> (<span class="p-locality" lang="en">Brussels</span>)</div>
# [01:21] <@tantek> that looks right
# [01:21] <tommorris> even more important for non-Latin scripts:
# [01:22] <@tantek> would result in an "h-adr" item with two values for the p-locality property
# [01:22] <tommorris> <div class="h-adr"><span class="p-locality" lang="he">חֵיפָה</span> (<span class="p-locality" lang="en">Haifa</span>)</div>
# [01:22] <@tantek> so as far as markup recipes go - that looks correct
# [01:22] <@tantek> the question is what (if anything) we should specify at the parser level for handling "lang" attributes
# [01:22] <tommorris> should the uf2-to-json process care about that?
# [01:22] <@tantek> currently it doesn't
# [01:23] <tommorris> that probably needs speccing out
# [01:23] <tommorris> but before that, I should probably get sleep.
# [01:23] <@tantek> the other challenge is that the markup doesn't make it clear if those are two equivalent values, or two different values
# [01:23] <@tantek> by default each property value is considered as its own value
# [01:24] <@tantek> for that kind of example we need something more like an alternatives list
# [01:24] <@tantek> that might just be a simple translation microformat
# [01:25] * @tantek wonders if it would be unreasonable to create a property for each language code
# [01:25] <@tantek> just *one* per language code, not an nxm matrix
# [01:25] <@tantek> obv
# [01:26] <tommorris> oh, so like p-locality-he p-locality-en
# [01:26] <@tantek> no, precisely *not* that
# [01:26] <@tantek> but rather
# [01:28] <@tantek> something like <div class="h-adr"><span class="p-locality h-alts"><span class="p-a-fr" lang="fr"> Bruxelles</span> (<span class="p-a-en" lang="en">Brussels</span>)</span></div>
# [01:28] <@tantek> to make the collection of alternates explicit
# [01:28] <@tantek> rather than implicit
# [01:29] <tommorris> Hmm. Something to mull over.
# [01:29] <@tantek> might use p-lang-fr rather than p-a-fr just because that's more "obvious" and easy to remember as a generic "here is a French language property"
# [01:29] <@tantek> e.g.
# [01:29] <@tantek> <div class="h-adr"><span class="p-locality h-alts"><span class="p-lang-fr" lang="fr"> Bruxelles</span> (<span class="p-lang-en" lang="en">Brussels</span>)</span></div>
# [01:30] <@tantek> whether you use uf2 or rdfa etc. you're still going to have that same challenge of explicitly indicating alternates for the same thing, instead of possibly just having a multivalued property where different values just happen to be different languages.
# [01:30] <@tantek> there's an important difference there
# [01:30] <@tantek> that becomes apparent when you start adding *multiple* values with the same language and different languages
# [01:31] <tommorris> yeah, in RDF, you'd end up with numerous properties with each string having a language tag.
# [01:31] <@tantek> if you don't cluster the alternates that represent the same value, you have no idea of knowing what are alternates for what
# [01:31] <@tantek> that's not good enough
# [01:31] <@tantek> for exactly the reason I just outlined
# [01:32] <@tantek> we could do that too for p-lang-*
# [01:32] <@tantek> drop the *
# [01:32] <@tantek> e.g.
# [01:32] <@tantek> <div class="h-adr"><span class="p-locality h-alts"><span class="p-lang" lang="fr"> Bruxelles</span> (<span class="p-lang" lang="en">Brussels</span>)</span></div>
# [01:33] <@tantek> and make "p-lang" indicate that it should get the language from the 'lang' attribute
# [01:33] <tommorris> so, in the RDF output for microformats2, I'm certainly interested in preserving the language attribute information. a consumer of the data could under some circumstances make a useful inference from it.
# [01:33] <@tantek> but the key here is that the "h-alts" grouping makes it clear that there is only *one* value, with multiple language expressions
# [01:35] <tommorris> real world usage that prompted this: at a meetup.com-organised event in London this week, there was some Russian guy and his profile on meetup had a name in Russian script and the Latin script version elsewhere in the profile
# [01:36] <@tantek> that might be two whole different profiles then
# [01:36] <@tantek> that need to be rel-me'd together
# [01:36] <@tantek> if you bump things up to the page granularity, then the problem is solved
# [01:37] <tommorris> for the purposes of indieweb stuff like the indieweb-autocomplete stuff barnaby is working on, you should be able to type in either and match them. (facebook, incidentally, now let you type in a word like "mom" or "boyfriend" into search and it takes you to the right person.)
# [01:37] <@tantek> wow
# [01:38] <@tantek> their (sustaining) pace of innovation is impressive
# [01:40] <@tantek> presumably, for the indieweb-autocomplete stuff, it should just auto-match *any* profile it knows about, regardless of the language of the profile
# [01:40] <@tantek> so that should just automatically work if each profile is on its own page
# [01:40] <@tantek> each language profile
# [01:44] <tommorris> yeah. anyway, must sleep. early start then a day trying to hack microformats and RDFa into openstreetmap.
# [01:44] <@tantek> great
# [01:44] <@tantek> I'll try be on here to help early tomorrow morning my time then
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# [07:16] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/equivalentideas :: #microformats there seems to be a problem with downloading the #hcard via @h2vx in #IOS6 @t
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# [14:08] <Loqi> [[How to Search for the Leading Relationship Page for You6728485]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=How_to_Search_for_the_Leading_Relationship_Page_for_You6728485&rcid=65482 * RaymondeueowcinmrrClyne * (+2178) New page: Which dating websites? With 1000's of courting web pages all more than the world wide web and added popping up day-to-day, searching for the most suitable dat
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# [14:47] <Loqi> [[Introduction To Organization Ethernet Connection Networks2488388]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Introduction_To_Organization_Ethernet_Connection_Networks2488388&rcid=65483 * TimothywsqzfqzlpkKrajnik * (+3865) New page: A business ethernet relationship has turn out to be a well-known answer for numerous data and voice community installations. There are a quantity of rewa
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# [16:05] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/unkariert :: @skraegelin besonders die hCard Geschichte hats mir angetan!
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# [16:15] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/FreeWSOdownload :: Free download: WSO - WP Author hReview (Plugin) http://www.freewso.info/wp-author-hreview-plugin/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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# [17:00] <Loqi> [[h2vx]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=h2vx&diff=49096&oldid=46636&rcid=65497 * Tantek * (+305) /* issues */ possible problem with iOS6
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# [17:18] <@tantek> tommorris, how's the OSM hacking going?
# [17:23] <tommorris> tantek: well, one of the guys here has been working on dramatically speeding up the query process.
# [17:23] <tommorris> tantek: and I've been working out the best way to map OSM data on to microformats and RDF
# [17:24] <@tantek> cool
# [17:24] <@tantek> let me know if I can be of any assistance
# [17:25] <@tantek> the node/venue pages you showed me looked pretty straightforward to markup
# [17:25] <tommorris> I may have a crack at fixing the indieauth login to allow OpenStreetMap OAuth as an option. it'd then be the first IndieAuth provider that is on a site that is controlled by a charitable foundation rather than a Silicon Valley company.
# [17:25] <@tantek> that would be awesome!
# [17:25] <tommorris> well, I'm going to propose that the profile pages - e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tom%20Morris - start being able to have a homepage and a rel=me
# [17:26] <@tantek> yes, ideally we should have IndieOAuth - Oauth on our own sites, rather than delegating to some other company for it
# [17:26] <@tantek> but it's a useful stopgap and fallback
# [17:26] <@tantek> oh interesting, profile pages on OSM
# [17:26] <@tantek> right, where is the "my website is:" field? ;)
# [17:27] <tommorris> there isn't one, that's why I'm gonna propose one
# [17:27] * tommorris should really discuss indieauth in #indiewebcamp
# [17:28] <@tantek> right
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# [18:06] <@tantek> tommorris - did you get a patch submitted for adding hCard to OSM venues?
# [18:06] <@tantek> welcome back barnabywalters
# [18:07] <@tantek> had a good chat with glenn (gjones) the other day about that one test suite issue
# [18:07] <barnabywalters> evening tantek
# [18:07] <barnabywalters> oh, the experimental property prefixes?
# [18:07] <@tantek> yeah, that and more
# [18:07] <@tantek> that github issue was really confusing
# [18:08] <@tantek> it wasn't really one issue - it was more of a conversation thread about multiple questions, and I couldn't even follow what was a question and what was a suggestion
# [18:08] <barnabywalters> yeah, it was a bit all over the place
# [18:08] <@tantek> so that's an email thread, not a github issue :P
# [18:09] <@tantek> ah, here's the chat Glenn and I had: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats/20121201#l-51
# [18:09] * barnabywalters reads
# [18:11] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Tantek * [[test-suite]] moved to [[test-suite-2009]]: Pretty much everything here is dated as of 2009, and it makes more sense to start from scratch with a new [[test-suite]] page for [[microformats2]] for 2012.
# [18:11] <barnabywalters> heh, loqi is behaving really weirdly recently1
# [18:11] <barnabywalters> !
# [18:14] <barnabywalters> okay, prefixing everything experimental with -x- now makes sense
# [18:14] <barnabywalters> so the typing issue is a little more awkward
# [18:15] <barnabywalters> because the parser removes the prefix of the class when parsing
# [18:15] <barnabywalters> so returning strings makes everything more simple on the parser side, but could make understanding the parsed structure more tricky
# [18:16] <barnabywalters> my other semi-issue with having the parser not understand the types involved is value-class split datetimes
# [18:16] <barnabywalters> e.g. given something like this:
# [18:17] <barnabywalters> (from µf wiki)
# [18:17] <barnabywalters> <span class="dt-start">
# [18:17] <barnabywalters> <abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">this Tuesday</abbr>
# [18:17] <barnabywalters> at <span class="value">18:30</span>
# [18:17] <barnabywalters> </span>
# [18:18] <barnabywalters> how should the parser behave without understanding the types involved?
# [18:18] <@tantek> right, that's the only case where the parser *does* need to do type-specific parsing, and then combine the result back into a string
# [18:18] <@tantek> note: prefixes != types. that's a semi-common misconception.
# [18:18] <@tantek> prefixes are merely cues for different parsing algorithms
# [18:19] <@tantek> which *happen* to *sometimes* overlap with some variances in typing
# [18:20] <barnabywalters> so apart from date vagueness, what is the advantage of returning strings over native objects if conversion to native objects is required in order to do the parsing in the first place?
# [18:21] <Loqi> [[test-suite]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=test-suite&diff=49103&oldid=49100&rcid=65504 * Tantek * (+1048) stub from scratch for 2012 with some borrowed prose from before
# [18:22] <Loqi> [[test-suite-2009]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=test-suite-2009&diff=49104&oldid=49099&rcid=65505 * Tantek * (+140) update header warning
# [18:23] <@tantek> so first, there's nothing vague about the broader set of dates/times/durations that <time> and microformats allow - each is actually very specifically defined. it's not vague, the same way that 12:00 isn't vague just because it omits seconds and milliseconds.
# [18:23] <@tantek> second, whether or not you use native objects to parse the value class pattern is an implementation detail. it's certainly not required by the value class pattern spec or parsing algorithms
# [18:24] <barnabywalters> so is there a technical term for those non-moment times?
# [18:24] <@tantek> always returning strings for every property greatly simplifies the JSON format that is shared
# [18:24] <@tantek> what is a "moment time"?
# [18:24] <@tantek> still not sure what you mean
# [18:25] <@tantek> is there a term for time without milliseconds?
# [18:25] <@tantek> do we need such terms?
# [18:25] <@tantek> some of them have prose descriptive names, though I wouldn't call them "technical terms"
# [18:25] <barnabywalters> no, I’m referring to the whole "2012-12-20 15:25" is different to "2012-12-20 15:25:00 0000" thing
# [18:26] <@tantek> it's also different with/without timezone
# [18:26] <@tantek> and with/without seconds
# [18:26] <@tantek> etc.
# [18:26] <barnabywalters> where the first time represents the entire minute, the second represents a particular moment
# [18:26] <@tantek> those are both iso8601 datetimes
# [18:26] <@tantek> no the trailing " 0000" is invalid
# [18:26] <@tantek> is it a timezone? is it milliseconds?
# [18:26] <barnabywalters> that was supposed to refer to milliseconds, I forgot the official syntax
# [18:27] <@tantek> why is a millisecond a "moment" instead of a second? why not nanosecond then?
# [18:28] <barnabywalters> I am not expressing this well.
# [18:28] <@tantek> the best I've seen to describe such details is YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS vs. YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS.ssss
# [18:28] <@tantek> there are no technical prose expressions for those that I know of
# [18:29] <@tantek> I often use "isodate" to mean YYYY-MM-DD
# [18:29] <barnabywalters> my point is, most software datetime libraries assume each datetime object refers to a particular moment in time, and there is no way of expressing "a week" or "a minute" or "a second"
# [18:29] <@tantek> and isodatetime to mean YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM (with optional :SS seconds and/or Z/+/-TZ)
# [18:29] <barnabywalters> which I believe in the HTML5 <time> spec there is
# [18:30] <@tantek> software datetime libraries are horribly inconsistent when it comes to such edges
# [18:30] <barnabywalters> tommorris tweeted about this recently, perhaps he can express it better
# [18:30] <@tantek> and no, they don't refer to moments, they often either refer to seconds or milliseconds
# [18:30] <@tantek> e.g. epoch seconds is often supported in software libraries
# [18:31] <barnabywalters> okay, practical example in PHP:
# [18:32] <barnabywalters> var_dump(new DateTime('2012-01-01T00:00:00') == new DateTime('2012-01-01'));
# [18:32] <@tantek> the point is, to do date time parsing properly and handle real world use cases (which all went into the design of the HTML5 <time> element, almost all from microformats), you have to write your own date time zone etc. parsing code.
# [18:32] <barnabywalters> evaluates to true
# [18:32] <@tantek> that's just because PHP assumes 00:00:00
# [18:32] <@tantek> can't make that assumption across libraries / languages
# [18:32] <@tantek> PHP treating a particular day as the same as a particular second could easily be claimed to be a bug
# [18:33] <@tantek> because they're not the same thing
# [18:33] <@tantek> existing language/library "support" of dates and times is sadly deficient, that's why I said you have to write your own date time zone etc. parsing code.
# [18:34] <@tantek> it's also why HTML5 specifies parsing algorithms for all of the different dates / times / durations - because all previous attempts have been sadly deficient / and/or taken bad shortcuts
# [18:34] * barnabywalters looks for HTML5s datetime parsing algorithms
# [18:41] <barnabywalters> that is awkward
# [18:43] <barnabywalters> still, I suppose ditching php DateTime and writing something based entirely round the value-class datetime spec would make things a bit more straightforward
# [18:46] <@tantek> and it would reflect actual content published by people on the web, rather than whatever legacy strings the PHP languages folks wanted to parse in the PHP DateTime object
# [18:46] <@tantek> there's no documentation on the research (if any) that was used to justify what PHP DateTime object parses and what it doesn't
# [18:46] <barnabywalters> yes, the "this is the actual content the author authored" factor is a powerful one
# [18:46] <@tantek> for HTML5 <time>, we have: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time
# [18:47] <@tantek> exactly, we've got the research (SCIENCE!) to back it up
# [18:47] <@tantek> as opposed to hacks accreted upon hacks over time
# [18:52] <barnabywalters> Created new issues for these in php-mf2: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/7 https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/8
# [18:52] <barnabywalters> I could do with some help with these, if anyone’s interested
# [18:54] <@tantek> barnabywalters - and I could do with some help with this wiki page: http://microformats.org/wiki/test-suite
# [18:54] <@tantek> as your questions / issues are answered, mind adding them there?
# [18:54] <barnabywalters> tantek: sure
# [18:55] <Loqi> [[test-suite]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=test-suite&diff=49105&oldid=49103&rcid=65506 * Tantek * (+84) stub FAQ
# [18:55] <@tantek> barnabywalters - what's the issue with https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/7 ?
# [18:55] <@tantek> that's a statement, not an issue
# [18:56] <@tantek> did you just want me to write "Yes." and close it? ;)
# [18:56] <barnabywalters> tantek: no that wouldn’t be very helpful ;)
# [18:56] <@tantek> oh sorry - just noticed the project name :)
# [18:56] <@tantek> (php-mf2 rather than test
# [18:56] <@tantek> )
# [18:56] * @tantek was wondering where issues 2-6 went.
# [18:57] <@tantek> BTW, barnabywalters, all the am/pm variants are *particularly* helpful in parsing real world content publishing of times
# [18:57] <@tantek> (in the value class pattern dates and times section)
# [18:58] <barnabywalters> yeah, I haven’t really pushed anything to the tests repo yet, apart from that comment. not really sure what I can do to help there
# [18:58] <barnabywalters> tantek: yep, the list looks like it’ll be really easy to turn into a load of regexes to check for
# [18:58] <@tantek> great
# [18:59] <@tantek> yeah I think we have to wait for glenn to sort out the answers to the questions he went on about in the one issue
# [18:59] <@tantek> I'm still having trouble separating them out the specific questions, otherwise I'd add them here: http://microformats.org/wiki/test-suite#FAQ
# [18:59] <@tantek> can you help with that?
# [18:59] <barnabywalters> I’ll have a go
# [19:00] <@tantek> at a minimum if you can break down and extract *one sentence* questions from https://github.com/microformats/tests/issues/1 that would be a big help
# [19:00] <@tantek> (and short sentences, not run-ons, certainly less than a tweet ;) )
# [19:01] <barnabywalters> I have so far proved to be inept at that, but I will try :)
# [19:01] <barnabywalters> the question about the -x- prefixes probably belongs elsewhere, in the microformats-2 page
# [19:02] <@tantek> could you state the question?
# [19:03] <barnabywalters> "What is the correct way to start using experimental microformat and property names in µf2?"
# [19:05] <barnabywalters> The root of the question in that issue seems to me to be "should parsers attempt to understand data types when parsing"
# [19:07] <Loqi> [[validators]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=validators&diff=49106&oldid=49023&rcid=65507 * Tantek * (+46) see also validator-brainstorming
# [19:12] <Loqi> [[test-suite]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=test-suite&diff=49107&oldid=49105&rcid=65508 * Barnabywalters * (+426) /* FAQ */ Added paraphrase of JSON vs parsed property comparison
# [19:18] <tommorris> tantek: hCard for OSM venues may be a hard sell.
# [19:18] <@tantek> really? seems like an easy fit
# [19:18] <@tantek> why is that?
# [19:18] <tommorris> tantek: the OSM community are rightfully rather conservative about what gets put on the website.
# [19:19] <@tantek> sure - that's one of the reasons we've minimized what markup you need to add to add microformats
# [19:19] <@tantek> microformats are the most conservative of the options as compared to RDFa or microdata for example
# [19:19] <tommorris> no, it isn't that. it's more that the mapping of OSM tags to the semantics of microformats (or microdata or RDFa etc.) isn't necessarily something they want in the core code
# [19:19] <@tantek> and microformats2 makes that even *more* conservative (less makrup)
# [19:19] <tommorris> because of loose coupling.
# [19:20] <@tantek> but they've already got geo, somehow that was acceptable?
# [19:20] <tommorris> so, the OSM website tries hard to not make assumptions about the tags used. there's only a few hard-coded tag.
# [19:20] <tommorris> well, geo is kind of rather a primitive one
# [19:20] <@tantek> right, so is name, and url
# [19:20] <tommorris> you can't have nodes in a GIS database without geo.
# [19:21] <@tantek> and for starters, name, url, geo are sufficient for useful hCards
# [19:21] <tommorris> I mean, it may be possible, but it won't be a five minute patch, it'll require a bit of thinking
# [19:21] <@tantek> really?
# [19:21] <@tantek> show me the file
# [19:21] <@tantek> or is this drupal-like where 20+ files all combine to create bits and pieces of one web page?
# [19:22] <@tantek> (a horrible development practice IMHO)
# [19:22] <tommorris> yup, but that's not that big of an issue
# [19:22] <tommorris> it's that the OSM community has a certain feeling about the "freedom to tag as you like"
# [19:22] <tommorris> so, for instance, there was a big debate back in the day over postal_code vs. postcode
# [19:23] <@tantek> sure that's fine, and for OSMXML they should make up whatever tags they want :)
# [19:23] <tommorris> it's very cowpath-pavey. so, when basically canonicalizing a set of OSM->microformats (or RDF or whatever) mappings, you need to basically do it in a way the community can change later without being programmers
# [19:23] <@tantek> so let's just start with hCards with url, geo, name then
# [19:24] <@tantek> and postpone figuring out address-compat for later
# [19:24] <tommorris> yup, that's what I will probably do.
# [19:24] <@tantek> this is an important constraint: "do it in a way the community can change later without being programmers"
# [19:24] <@tantek> and very useful to keep in mind
# [19:25] <tommorris> so, would something like this: <div class="h-card p-name">Market Street</div> be valid? ;-)
# [19:25] <@tantek> for that matter then, you could markup all the OSM specific properties with p-osm-whatevertag
# [19:25] <@tantek> where whatevertag is their thing
# [19:25] <barnabywalters> tommorris: you can even leave out the p-name in that one
# [19:25] <@tantek> tommorris - no that's bad because then the geo won't get included
# [19:25] <tommorris> barnabywalters: was more thinking in terms of the semantics of what an hCard is.
# [19:25] <@tantek> you need the hCard somewhere higher up
# [19:25] <tommorris> tantek: the geo would be included later on
# [19:25] <@tantek> heck, put it on body
# [19:25] <@tantek> if there happens to be a name
# [19:26] <Loqi> [[Postcard Printing - Chopping Costs, Obtaining Low-cost Residence Cellphone Solutions Thru VOIP (Part one)]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Postcard_Printing_-_Chopping_Costs%2C_Obtaining_Low-cost_Residence_Cellphone_Solutions_Thru_VOIP_%28Part_one%29&rcid=65509 * DavidwysiqgjltbScali * (+19846) New page: The use of postcards has risen tremendously over the previous couple
# [19:26] <tommorris> I'm asking a more Pedantic Web question: would a street be a valid hCard?
# [19:26] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:DavidwysiqgjltbScali]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
# [19:26] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[Postcard Printing - Chopping Costs, Obtaining Low-cost Residence Cellphone Solutions Thru VOIP (Part one)]]": content was spam
# [19:26] <tommorris> or an unnamed park bench?
# [19:26] <@tantek> tommorris - no I think those would not be things you put in your address book / contacts list.
# [19:27] <@tantek> though there may be exceptions
# [19:27] <@tantek> e.g. Bourbon Street
# [19:27] <@tantek> Wall Street
# [19:27] <tommorris> so, there is already a process for specifying some loosely coupled tag rules.
# [19:27] <tommorris> I've just got to figure it out
# [19:27] <tommorris> I know the Wikipedia links have some special magic, for instance.
# [19:27] <@tantek> the point with the "p-osm-*" properties is that now that we have a way of doing vendor/site specific properties in microformats2, we might as well use it.
# [19:28] <barnabywalters> would using the -osm- prefix on the root class get around the "not everything OSM has is an h-card" issue?
# [19:29] <tommorris> so, <div class="h-card h-osm-node">…</div>
# [19:36] <@tantek> well it wouldn't get around it
# [19:36] <@tantek> it would just give you another object
# [19:37] <@tantek> the hard part is to somehow only put hCards on things with names that are venues
# [19:37] <@tantek> rather than just streets
# [19:37] <@tantek> e.g. I'd say if you can check into it (per indieweb.com/checkin ) then it's a venue and it likely makes sense as an hCard
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# [19:37] <@tantek> can you check into a street? no.
# [19:38] <@tantek> can you check into an unamed park bench? no.
# [19:38] <tommorris> people do. street carnivals. pride parades. ;-)
# [19:38] <barnabywalters> can you check into a named park bench?
# [19:38] <@tantek> I've checked into named drinking fountains (e.g. during a run in the park)
# [19:39] <@tantek> yes, you could check into a named park bench, because you could certainly create it as a venue (e.g. in foursquare)
# [19:39] <Loqi> [[tayt modelleri]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=tayt_modelleri&rcid=65512 * Ddeniz * (+768) New page: 2012-2013 Bayan tayt modelleri Son 10 yılda bayanlar tarafından sıkça kullanılan bayan '''tayt modelleri''', özellikle 2012 yılında kadınların ilgi odağı olmaya başladı. Her...
# [19:39] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:Ddeniz]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
# [19:39] <tommorris> that's why it's a bit more complicated than just rolling it out: I need to hack together some way of allowing the community to self-describe the relation between OSM tags and microformats
# [19:39] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[tayt modelleri]]": content was spam
# [19:39] <barnabywalters> when I map park benches on OSM I always give them a name :)
# [19:40] <@tantek> also, people do check into neighborhoods / intersection
# [19:40] <tommorris> and, as with all such communities, sell the participants on the idea.
# [19:40] <@tantek> e.g. https://foursquare.com/v/haightashbury/4aaa7f6df964a520375620e3
# [19:41] <tommorris> I could see people checking in to, say, "Tottenham Court Road" in London, because they may wish to signal to the world that they are flitting between shops on said street.
# [19:41] <@tantek> note that it has an hCard :D
# [19:42] <@tantek> right tommorris
# [19:42] <@tantek> however I think the semantic that those people are expressing is a particular meaning of "the area around Tottenham Court Road" rather than "anywhere on a street named Tottenham Court Road"
# [19:42] <tommorris> yup
# [19:52] <Loqi> [[microformats2-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-faq&diff=49110&oldid=48871&rcid=65515 * Tantek * (+1578) How do you use experimental microformats and property names
# [19:53] <@tantek> barnabywalters, well that's one FAQ answered: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-faq#how_do_you_use_experimental_microformats_and_property_names
# [19:54] <barnabywalters> hurrah!
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# [20:17] <Loqi> [[validator-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=validator-brainstorming&rcid=65516 * Tantek * (+682) stub with a few ideas from IRC
# [20:18] <@tantek> barnabywalters - I started this page http://microformats.org/wiki/validator-brainstorming since you were suggesting some good ideas for what parsers *could* do that was really above and beyond what parsers *should* do.
# [20:18] <@tantek> however, all your ideas were excellent ideas for what a validator *could* do that was built on top of a parser.
# [20:19] <@tantek> please feel free to braindump there!
# [20:19] <barnabywalters> by that you mean all the datetime interpreting stuff?
# [20:22] <Loqi> [[validator-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=validator-brainstorming&diff=49112&oldid=49111&rcid=65517 * Tantek * (+147) lat long
# [20:22] <Loqi> [[validator-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=validator-brainstorming&diff=49113&oldid=49112&rcid=65518 * Tantek * (-1) /* ... = */
# [20:22] <Loqi> [[validator-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=validator-brainstorming&diff=49114&oldid=49113&rcid=65519 * Tantek * (+53) =
# [20:23] <@tantek> barnabywalters and more
# [20:23] * @tantek is attempting to parse that github issue once more
# [20:23] <@tantek> we should collect all that kind of validation-like features here: http://microformats.org/wiki/validator-brainstorming
# [20:24] <Loqi> yea!
# [20:24] <@tantek> and then when building validation functionality, if it makes sense to put hooks into the parsers to get more info, then we can discuss that then
# [20:28] <barnabywalters> that sounds like a much more robust solution
# [20:28] <barnabywalters> and makes for more parser compatibility between languages and parsers
# [20:29] <barnabywalters> e.g. a cassis validator function could be used with either PHP or JS parsers
# [20:29] <barnabywalters> or (if I ever figured out how one could be made), a php+js parser
# [20:29] <@tantek> exactly!
# [20:29] <@tantek> yes it is totally doable
# [20:30] <@tantek> parsing is just string processing
# [20:30] <@tantek> which CASSIS already has a bunch of
# [20:30] <@tantek> just need to add more :)
# [20:31] <@tantek> !tell gjones I've wrapped up an answer on https://github.com/microformats/tests/issues/1 as best I could, please feel free to close it if you think the issues/questions have been answered, or preferably if there are outstanding issues/questions, please start a new github issue for each. Thanks! cc: barnabywalters
# [20:31] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# [20:38] <Loqi> [[test-suite]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=test-suite&diff=49115&oldid=49107&rcid=65520 * Tantek * (+237) /* FAQ */ clarify that native language objects are sadly deficient at representing dates/times/durations as published on the real world web.
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# [22:12] <Loqi> [[Main Page-tr]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page-tr&diff=49118&oldid=49117&rcid=65523 * Ismatkurt * (+0)
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# [23:08] <Loqi> [[Believing On The Different HCG Drops Reviews3982594]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Believing_On_The_Different_HCG_Drops_Reviews3982594&rcid=65524 * VanirradcilacLugar * (+3281) New page: In the event that danger, 500 calories/day is a lower amount. Just compare it a concern . daily required amount of calories for a trustworthy person, it is truly well below generally id
# [23:42] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/TMobileProvider :: Chamber Growth and The hCard! | Spotlight on US Local Micro ...
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# Session Close: Mon Dec 03 00:00:00 2012

The end :)