/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 25 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:18] <Hixie> www-html:
  6. # [00:18] <Hixie> I /expect/ it to be shaped by my participation, alongside others, in
  7. # [00:18] <Hixie> the /standardization organization/ tasked with creating it the
  8. # [00:18] <Hixie> specification.
  9. # [00:19] * Hixie wonders if Tina is aware that she is not participating in the right group
  10. # [00:20] <othermaciej> I wonder if Tina knows that she is using /too much/ punctuation to indicate *emphasis*
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  12. # [00:25] <Dashiva> othermaciej: It's probably proprietary markup to indicate semantically different kinds of emphasis
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  16. # [01:05] <Dashiva> acid3 got brutal overnight...
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  19. # [01:08] <Philip`> At least it looks much better in Opera than when I last looked - it's very broken, but not so broken that you can't see how broken it is :-)
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  21. # [01:09] <Philip`> (I think the rendering in IE6 counts as 'too broken' - it just looks like a really boring and slightly buggy page, and doesn't tempt you with the promise of interestingness if only a few small browser bugs were fixed)
  22. # [01:10] * Joins: sgillies (n=chatzill@dsl-179-116.dynamic-dsl.frii.net)
  23. # [01:10] <Hixie> i'm not really targetting IE
  24. # [01:10] <Hixie> they have bigger fish to fry, imho
  25. # [01:10] <Hixie> i'd be very interested in suggestions for more tests
  26. # [01:10] <Hixie> i've run out of the things i wanted to test :-)
  27. # [01:11] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  28. # [01:12] <Philip`> (Konqueror gives an Opera-like level of very-brokenness)
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  33. # [01:22] <Philip`> (Ooh, KDE4's Konqueror does surprisingly well - it appears to get the whole layout correct, and it just fails the 1st and 3rd buckets and says "0%" at the end)
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  35. # [01:23] <zcorpan_> time to hunt for khtml bugs then? :)
  36. # [01:23] <Hixie> click the "Acid3" text to get a report of what failed
  37. # [01:25] <Philip`> 34, 35, 37, it says
  38. # [01:26] <Philip`> but half the time it asks me if I want to Save As / Open / Cancel the empty.txt file
  39. # [01:27] <Philip`> (The other half the time, it fails doesn't ask but it fails 48 and 49)
  40. # [01:27] <othermaciej> WebKit gets to 95%, positions the boxes slightly wrong, gets two box colors wrong, and gets the color of the text "Acid 3" wrong
  41. # [01:27] <Philip`> s/fails//
  42. # [01:28] <othermaciej> fails 34, 35, 37, 48, 49
  43. # [01:28] <othermaciej> I feel like it would be cheating to start fixing before the test is done
  44. # [01:29] <nlogax> where can i find the test? (sorry, new in here)
  45. # [01:31] <othermaciej> I bet 34 is because comments are not preserved in the DOM
  46. # [01:31] <othermaciej> http://hixie.ch/tests/evil/acid/003/
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  48. # [01:40] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: presuming that the test uses sgml parsing rules as the spec -- what does sgml say about comments? (may they be dropped as in xml?)
  49. # [01:41] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: I think the DOM spec says that implementations may include comment nodes in the DOM or not
  50. # [01:43] <othermaciej> SGML does not say anything about parsing into a DOM afaik
  51. # [01:43] <othermaciej> HTML5 may require preserving comment nodes; not sure if this is a compat issue
  52. # [01:43] * Joins: polin8 (n=brian@ool-18b8cc06.dyn.optonline.net)
  53. # [01:45] <zcorpan_> ok... surprised that the dom spec would say anything about it
  54. # [01:46] <Dashiva> Is the reference rendering updated?
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  57. # [01:52] <Hixie> hm, good point, the test shouldn't rely on comments
  58. # [01:52] <Hixie> feel free to fix the bugs, btw
  59. # [01:52] <Hixie> for the love of kittens don't _not_ fix bugs because acid3's early versions trigger them :-P
  60. # [01:53] * Dashiva promotes test as an example of 'corner cases with no relevance to the real web, which can safely be ignored'
  61. # [01:53] <Hixie> oh?
  62. # [01:54] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: SGML (and I think XML) predate the existence of the DOM spec, so I don't think they had the opportunity to talk about parsing into a DOM
  63. # [01:54] <Dashiva> Just to be the first to do so ;)
  64. # [01:55] <zcorpan> othermaciej: yeah, but the xml spec says that comments may be dropped
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  66. # [01:55] <Hixie> removed the comment thing from the test
  67. # [01:56] <zcorpan> Hixie: will there be 100 tests when it's done?
  68. # [01:56] <othermaciej> zcorpan: yeah, I think it is talking about processing in a more general way
  69. # [01:56] <othermaciej> WebKit is borking the layout much worse now, though still failing the same number of tests
  70. # [01:56] <Hixie> really?
  71. # [01:56] <Hixie> that's weird
  72. # [01:57] <Hixie> i only removed the comment
  73. # [01:57] <Hixie> zcorpan: if y'all give me enough things to test :-)
  74. # [01:57] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok :)
  75. # [01:57] <Lachy> good morning
  76. # [01:57] <zcorpan> Lachy: morning
  77. # [01:57] <othermaciej> Hixie: it's pretty weird to me too - I have a saved copy of the older test though, so pretty sure it's a real phenomenon
  78. # [01:57] <Hixie> odd
  79. # [01:57] <Hixie> wonder what i did
  80. # [01:58] <Hixie> reload?
  81. # [01:58] <Hixie> i put the comment back
  82. # [01:58] <Hixie> does it render right now?
  83. # [01:58] <othermaciej> Hixie: yes
  84. # [01:58] * Lachy wonders how a comment could be used in a test
  85. # [01:58] <othermaciej> I wonder if this is a parsing bug of some sort
  86. # [01:58] <Hixie> othermaciej: looks like your html parser fails to imply <head> or something
  87. # [01:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: that's possible
  88. # [01:59] <Hixie> brb, getting food
  89. # [01:59] <othermaciej> I bet looking for browser-specific quirks in Dojo, Prototype, MochiKit and similar would be a good source of tests
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  92. # [02:18] <Lachy> Hixie, your definition of the placeholder attribute conflicts with the <input placeholder> attribute implemented by Safari
  93. # [02:19] <zcorpan> <input placeholder> is something that should be part of html5 imho, the lack of that feature is worked around all over the place (mostly abusing value="")
  94. # [02:20] <othermaciej> we plan to submit <input type="search"> and related stuff for consideration in HTML5
  95. # [02:20] <othermaciej> I asked someone on my team to write it up
  96. # [02:21] <Lachy> class="search" was predefined for that, but type=search has a cool rendering in safari
  97. # [02:22] <othermaciej> class="search" is for search forms, not search fields, afaik
  98. # [02:22] <Lachy> zcorpan, placeholder was discussed back in 2004 or 2005, and I think Hixie said it would be considered for Web Forms 3
  99. # [02:22] <othermaciej> "It must only be used on the following elements: aside, body, form, p, section, span"
  100. # [02:23] <Lachy> oh, I thought it could be used on input too
  101. # [02:23] <othermaciej> <input type="search"> and placeholder on non-search fields (which we originally intended only for search but accidentally enabled for text fields too) are both in some actual use on the web
  102. # [02:23] <othermaciej> mostly Apple-oriented sites but not exclusively
  103. # [02:24] <Lachy> I would love to use placeholder, but I've been forced to fake it with js in the past
  104. # [02:24] <Hixie> Lachy: d'oh!
  105. # [02:26] <Lachy> hixie, maybe try relevant=""
  106. # [02:27] <Hixie> placeholder="" had the great property that it would sound silly to put it on a hidden tab panel
  107. # [02:27] <Hixie> relevant="" doesn't really hav ethat
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  109. # [02:31] <zcorpan> "Well-formed document requirement—HTML5 defines a well-formed document according to the requirements specified in section 4 Appendix C of the XHTML 1.0 specification." -- http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/34389/0/page/2
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  111. # [02:37] <othermaciej> I think hyatt is just emotionally attached to a doctype that looks the way doctypes do today
  112. # [02:38] <othermaciej> because his post on the matter makes a hash of the relevant arguments
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  116. # [02:47] <Philip`> Does SGML/XML/anything care about the actual content of the "-//W3C//DTD ..." string in the doctype, and become unhappy if it was e.g. "5.0"? (If not, has anybody suggested any reasons why there's any point in using that string, given that it's impossible to remember and is confusing since there's no DTD?)
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  119. # [02:52] <othermaciej> Philip`: I don't know if it is needed or not - some other people commented on it, but I think there are strong reasons to prefer a version attribute over a doctype anyway
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  147. # [07:42] <othermaciej> hmm, I still can't figure out why the missing comment in Acid3 breaks our display
  148. # [07:42] <annevk> you do reparsing?
  149. # [07:43] <annevk> if that doesn't make much sense in this context, feel free to ignore
  150. # [07:44] <annevk> Maybe the innerHTML parsing mode should be renamed to HTML fragment with context parsing
  151. # [07:45] <annevk> so people don't get the feeling it has to do with scripting...
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  153. # [07:48] <othermaciej> that could be good yeah
  154. # [07:54] <othermaciej> hmm, looks like WebKit does in fact keep comments in the DOM (though strictly speaking it is optional)
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  156. # [08:17] <othermaciej> annevk: it is a parsing issue, but not due to reparsing - <script> in an implicit head ends up between head and body
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  158. # [08:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: what does your dom look like below <html?
  159. # [08:28] <othermaciej> Hixie: I made a reduction which illustrates the issue
  160. # [08:28] <othermaciej> just a sec
  161. # [08:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: http://paste.lisp.org/display/40272
  162. # [08:29] <othermaciej> weird bug
  163. # [08:29] <othermaciej> I'm not sure why that hoses the rendering though
  164. # [08:30] * Hixie looks
  165. # [08:30] <Hixie> there's a style rule
  166. # [08:30] <Hixie> that matches head + body > div > p
  167. # [08:30] <Hixie> so you'll start/stop matching it
  168. # [08:30] <annevk> whoa, that's some quirky parsing right there :)
  169. # [08:31] <othermaciej> annevk: I think Opera puts both of those scripts between head and body
  170. # [08:31] <othermaciej> firefox puts both in head
  171. # [08:31] <Hixie> opera doesn't have a head
  172. # [08:31] <Hixie> in that document
  173. # [08:31] <annevk> right
  174. # [08:31] <Hixie> it doesn't imply <head> tags at all
  175. # [08:31] <othermaciej> ok, that, then
  176. # [08:31] <annevk> who needs <head> anyway
  177. # [08:31] <Hixie> (causes all kinds of subtle problems, that's why acid3 has an implied <head>)
  178. # [08:31] <othermaciej> my test is not very discriminating, just tells me if it went in <head> or <html>
  179. # [08:32] <Hixie> the live dom viewer is probably what you want to be using
  180. # [08:32] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
  181. # [08:33] <othermaciej> mainly I'm interested in the WebKit bug which I can figure out w/ the built-in Web Inspector, but that is indeed useful for comparisons
  182. # [08:33] <annevk> Hixie, placeholder clashes with <input placeholder> from WebKit, do you need an e-mail on that?
  183. # [08:33] <Hixie> yeah lachy said
  184. # [08:33] <Hixie> what i need is a better name :-)
  185. # [08:35] <othermaciej> what is it supposed to do?
  186. # [08:36] <annevk> irrelevant, not-relevant-now, hidden
  187. # [08:37] <othermaciej> so placeholder is basically a presentational attribute for display: none
  188. # [08:38] <annevk> othermaciej, http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=776&to=777
  189. # [08:38] <annevk> othermaciej, made "semantic" and only for specific use cases, yes
  190. # [08:41] <othermaciej> it seems like "placeholder" is the wrong meaning for the given example
  191. # [08:41] <othermaciej> the input is a placeholder for the video
  192. # [08:41] <othermaciej> the video isn't a placeholder for anything while hidden
  193. # [08:41] <othermaciej> at least as I understand placeholder (temporary substitute for something else)
  194. # [08:42] <othermaciej> it seems like "hidden" would be the best word, but then you have to wonder why not just use the CSSOM, or a user-defined class that styles to display: none
  195. # [08:44] <othermaciej> placeholder does seem like it captures a common use case, but it's pretty limited, since it is harder to hook in author-controlled animation of the new content appearing/disappearing, which might be desirable
  196. # [08:44] <othermaciej> it's also hard to tell the cases where it should be used from ones where it shouldn't so it seems easy to abuse
  197. # [08:45] <othermaciej> I assume it would be considered wrong to use this for hover menus, for instance
  198. # [08:45] <annevk> it does mention that at the end
  199. # [08:47] <annevk> animations are a good point
  200. # [08:53] <othermaciej> so yeah, it doesn't sound like a compelling feature to me just yet
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  203. # [08:58] <Hixie> othermaciej: we need a way to do what the examples show without any css (i.e. non-presentational hiding of content that isn't usable/relevant)
  204. # [08:59] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm all in favour of having ways to hook animation to it
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  206. # [09:00] <othermaciej> Hixie: can you clarify why being able to do it without CSS is a requirement? (I don't necessarily disagree, I am just unaware of the reasoning behind it)
  207. # [09:00] <Hixie> because css is a presentation-layer thing, not semantic
  208. # [09:00] <Hixie> but this is a semantic
  209. # [09:01] <Hixie> or more pragmatically, because css can be disabled
  210. # [09:01] <Hixie> because lync has no css
  211. # [09:01] <Hixie> lynx
  212. # [09:01] <Hixie> etc
  213. # [09:01] <othermaciej> does lynx have JavaScript?
  214. # [09:01] <Hixie> it could do
  215. # [09:02] <Hixie> the point is css is the wrong way to do this
  216. # [09:02] <Hixie> it's a semantic thing
  217. # [09:02] <Hixie> i need to say here's a section that isn't relevant, hide it
  218. # [09:02] <Hixie> it's not a stylistic thing
  219. # [09:03] <annevk> non-stylistic-hidden
  220. # [09:03] <othermaciej> I guess I'm not sure how to tell what reasons to make something hidden are semantic and which aren't
  221. # [09:05] <Hixie> if you can think of a way to apply an alternate style sheet that would show that section, then it's stylistic
  222. # [09:05] <Hixie> if you would never want to show it, it's semantic
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  225. # [09:06] * annevk wonders if these type of explanations should be in the spec
  226. # [09:07] <annevk> maybe a section that explains markup semantics...
  227. # [09:07] <othermaciej> seems to me like something that's hidden in the markup could just be in a comment, if it is truly not part of the semantics of the document, and if your UA has JS it probably has CSS too
  228. # [09:08] <Hixie> the problem is that a comment isn't parsed
  229. # [09:08] <Hixie> you want something that's in the DOM
  230. # [09:08] <Hixie> e.g. so it can be conformance checked
  231. # [09:10] <othermaciej> maybe the attribute should name should be "irrelevant" or "notrelevant"
  232. # [09:11] <othermaciej> it still doesn't sound terribly compelling to me, but I can see why you want it
  233. # [09:12] <Hixie> i've switched it to irrelevant for now
  234. # [09:13] <Hixie> i would love to make it more useful
  235. # [09:13] <annevk> so with animations you would set this after the animation has run I suppose
  236. # [09:13] <othermaciej> I'm trying to think how you'd make it tie in well with animation approaches, which are generally CSS-based
  237. # [09:13] <Hixie> we basically need a Core Animation of Web technologies
  238. # [09:14] <Hixie> i suppose SMIL is intended to be it, but i'm not impressed by SMIL
  239. # [09:14] <othermaciej> I sure hope someone works on such a completely hypothetical thing
  240. # [09:14] <Hixie> indeed
  241. # [09:15] <annevk> othermaciej, was that sarcastic?
  242. # [09:15] <othermaciej> it was a fancy way of saying "no comment"
  243. # [09:15] <annevk> if it was, I don't get it
  244. # [09:16] <annevk> Hixie, the problem is that SVG inflicts SMIL upon the world
  245. # [09:17] <annevk> And SVG animation is being implemented (supported)...
  246. # [09:17] <Hixie> there's room for more than one solution
  247. # [09:17] <Hixie> especially when one is as bad as SVG
  248. # [09:18] * Joins: hsivonen (n=hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi)
  249. # [09:22] <annevk> I suppose
  250. # [09:22] <annevk> I think it would have to be significantly better though to persuade implementors, but maybe that's not hard
  251. # [09:24] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@IP-193-159-214-250.y-lan.t-online.net)
  252. # [09:25] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  253. # [09:26] <annevk> Well, having two sets of technologies to do the same thing doesn't seem very desirable
  254. # [09:27] <annevk> IE already has SMIL working for HTML (HTML+Time proposal to the W3C)
  255. # [09:27] <annevk> otoh, they had VML too...
  256. # [09:27] <annevk> s/had/have/
  257. # [09:32] <othermaciej> they also have WPF/E now
  258. # [09:33] <annevk> Yeah, this Flash competitor
  259. # [09:33] <annevk> Silverlight iirc
  260. # [09:36] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@dhcp-246-11.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  261. # [09:43] <hsivonen> Is Flash still bundled with Vista?
  262. # [09:44] * hsivonen is very surprised about hyatt's opinions on versioning
  263. # [09:44] <othermaciej> Flash is not in fact bundled with Vista
  264. # [09:45] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ooh. radical
  265. # [09:45] <hsivonen> othermaciej: that means MS is ready to break the Web!
  266. # [09:46] <hsivonen> Silverlight in Windows-only and IE/Firefox-only, right?
  267. # [09:46] <annevk> I think Safari too
  268. # [09:46] <hsivonen> does the Firefox version work with Opera?
  269. # [09:46] <hsivonen> annevk: oh. where do I get a Mac version?
  270. # [09:46] <annevk> Maybe I was misinformed
  271. # [09:47] <annevk> I only read about it in w3c-svg-wg archives
  272. # [09:47] <othermaciej> I think they intend to have it work on Safari, dunno if that has been released yet
  273. # [09:48] <hsivonen> it seems that there is a "Silverlight CTP for Macintosh"
  274. # [09:50] <hsivonen> the Silverlight FAQ uses user-unfriendly styling/scripting. have to use Lynx to read
  275. # [09:52] <hsivonen> apparently, "/E" in the MS world view means Windows and Mac
  276. # [09:52] * Joins: bzed (n=bzed@dslb-084-059-125-190.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  277. # [09:55] <annevk> The '<' doesn't seem to be specialcased at all in IE's tokenizer
  278. # [09:56] <annevk> For element names, attribute names and unquoted attribute values that is
  279. # [10:06] <othermaciej> hsivonen: it means that at least as long as it takes them to kill Flash
  280. # [10:10] <annevk> This basically means that the SHORTTAG TAGC OMISSION feature of SGML is obsolete...
  281. # [10:11] <othermaciej> what's the SHORTTAG TAGC OMISSION feature?
  282. # [10:11] <annevk> <test</test> being parsed as <test></test>
  283. # [10:11] <annevk> <p><img src=""</p> like <p><img src=""></p> etc.
  284. # [10:12] <annevk> it basically means special casing <
  285. # [10:12] <virtuelv> heh, I now have a new showcase of how to make shiny accessible JS+DOM-based UI, http://www.satama.nl/ </offtopic>
  286. # [10:14] <othermaciej> ah
  287. # [10:14] <othermaciej> does any browser do that?
  288. # [10:15] <annevk> Firefox
  289. # [10:15] <annevk> maybe Safari?
  290. # [10:16] <annevk> It also means that <p</p>test will give you a 'p<' element with a 'p' attribute with 'test' as textContent
  291. # [10:28] * Joins: ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@d51A5CE12.access.telenet.be)
  292. # [10:39] <annevk> othermaciej, what's the DOM view in Safari for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Ctest%3C/test%3E
  293. # [10:39] <othermaciej> annevk: in webkit trunk, it's HTML --> BODY --> TEST
  294. # [10:40] <othermaciej> with no text content
  295. # [10:41] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz)
  296. # [10:42] <annevk> IE has a "TEST<" element which has a "test" attribute
  297. # [10:43] <annevk> "TEST<" also occurs before "HTML" but we shouldn't follow that I think
  298. # [10:43] <annevk> This is pretty trivial to fix in the html5lib tokenizer though it breaks a bunch of tests
  299. # [10:44] <othermaciej> it
  300. # [10:44] <annevk> maybe http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cbody%3E%3Cp%20%3C/p%3Etest is a better test
  301. # [10:44] <othermaciej> it's really hard to tell how much of IE's crazier parsing rules should be followed
  302. # [10:45] <othermaciej> annevk: the text is sibling to the P and the P has no funny attributes
  303. # [10:46] <annevk> Well, cwilso is right with suggesting there's an IE web and an "other browser" web I think. Some application frameworks are relying on the IE namespaced DOM for instance and have some patched version for other browsers.
  304. # [10:46] <annevk> othermaciej, I think WebKit supports the SGML feature in that case, at least partially
  305. # [10:46] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@adsl-70-231-234-224.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  306. # [10:47] <annevk> In IE "test" is a child text node of <p> which has <="" and p="" attributes
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  308. # [10:49] <othermaciej> it is sometimes hard to withhold my aesthetic judgment on these parsing oddities
  309. # [10:50] <annevk> I would personally prefer IEs behavior
  310. # [10:50] <annevk> Less work for Opera and simplifies the code of html5lib
  311. # [10:51] <annevk> As the affect of having less characters that do something special
  312. # [10:52] <othermaciej> the only part that seems nasty is having an attribute named "<"
  313. # [10:52] <othermaciej> "<" is clearly already a special character, question is only whether this is also true while parsing a tag or only when parsing text
  314. # [10:59] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  315. # [11:12] <annevk> Hixie, the spec points to http://lists.whatwg.org/admin.cgi/commit-watchers-whatwg.org
  316. # [11:12] <annevk> Hixie, it should point to http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/commit-watchers-whatwg.org
  317. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> annevk - just tried to subscribe to the list but got a non-delivery message:
  318. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> [[
  319. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> <commit-watchers-request@lists.whatwg.org>: host
  320. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> lists.whatwg.org[66.33.216.179] said: 550
  321. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> <commit-watchers-request@lists.whatwg.org>: Recipient address rejected:
  322. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> User unknown in virtual alias table (in reply to RCPT TO command)
  323. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> ]]
  324. # [11:17] <annevk> Through the interface?
  325. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> anne - yeah. sent me a confirm message, I replied, got the non-delivery notification
  326. # [11:18] <annevk> Interesting. I'd suggesting waiting a couple of hours (like nine, ten) for Hixie so he can fix it
  327. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> k
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  336. # [12:20] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju
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  340. # [13:43] <zcorpan> anyone know spanish?
  341. # [13:45] <nlogax> a little
  342. # [13:45] <citoyen> Only enough to order beer and dinner
  343. # [13:45] <zcorpan> can you translate this to spanish? :) "This is not correct. Well-formedness is a concept defined in XML 1.0, and namespace-well-formedness is a concept defined in Namespaces in XML 1.0. The concepts do not apply to HTML, and HTML5 does not introduce such a concept for text/html."
  344. # [13:45] <annevk> cerveza
  345. # [13:46] <zcorpan> (which is a response to "HTML5 define como documento bien formado según las especificaciones de la section 4 Appendix C of the XHTML 1.0 specification." -- http://mistervertigo.es/blogs/introduccion-html-5-i-2/ )
  346. # [13:46] * citoyen agrees with annevk's translation
  347. # [13:46] <citoyen> it's all you'll ever need
  348. # [13:46] <annevk> I believe he got that from somewhere else (in English)
  349. # [13:46] <zcorpan> annevk: yes
  350. # [13:47] <annevk> in which case replying in English should cause no problems
  351. # [13:47] * zcorpan wanted to reply in spanish mostly for fun :P
  352. # [13:48] <zcorpan> but ok
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  354. # [13:50] <zcorpan> commented in english
  355. # [13:58] * hsivonen just talked to a reporter about the conformance checker project; wonders what will end up in print
  356. # [14:03] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154)
  357. # [14:04] <annevk> A promising student has been doing his master thesis on a conformance checker for XHTML2, a technology frequently used on the web.
  358. # [14:11] <Dashiva> Oh yes
  359. # [14:12] <Dashiva> hsivonen is a role="model" for web-interested people everywhere
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  368. # [16:02] <krijnh> annevk, Philip`: I think it's fixed now
  369. # [16:04] <Lachy> Hixie should rename placeholder="" to role="placeholder"!
  370. # [16:04] * Lachy ducsk
  371. # [16:04] <Lachy> *ducks
  372. # [16:06] <Philip`> krijnh: Looks to me like it's working - thanks!
  373. # [16:06] <krijnh> Np
  374. # [16:06] <krijnh> Can't test too much now, so if it breaks somewhere, let me know :)
  375. # [16:06] <Lachy> oh, there's an XHTML2 WG telcon going on! This should be fun to watch :-)
  376. # [16:07] <Lachy> in #xhtml on w3 IRC server
  377. # [16:07] <krijnh> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20070425 ;)
  378. # [16:08] <krijnh> Oki, bye :)
  379. # [16:08] <Philip`> You should add extra AJAX for live streaming IRC logs ;-)
  380. # [16:08] <Philip`> (I suppose anybody who wants live streaming IRC could just join the channel, but that's no fun)
  381. # [16:09] <Lachy> just reload every ~30 seconds
  382. # [16:10] <Lachy> I'll let you know when something interesting happens
  383. # [16:10] <Philip`> "when" rather than "if"?
  384. # [16:11] <Lachy> yeah, sorry. I meant "if"
  385. # [16:12] <Lachy> they're not typing the minutes :-(
  386. # [16:12] <Lachy> oh, now they are
  387. # [16:20] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  388. # [16:27] <virtuelv> we should stream the logs using server-sent events
  389. # [16:27] <Lachy> that'd be awesome
  390. # [16:30] <Philip`> "[16:24] * Zakim Steven, you typed too many words without commas" - Zakim seems like quite a peculiar bot
  391. # [16:31] <Lachy> I didn't understand that message either. I had no idea zakim was a grammar checker
  392. # [16:32] <Lachy> wow, IE will apparently be implementing role=""
  393. # [16:33] <virtuelv> I could point out that words themselves don't have commas
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  399. # [16:48] <annevk> Zakim is the telcon bot
  400. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> that message from Zakim prolly just means it was expecting the word "to"
  401. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> q+ to talk about blah
  402. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> instead of
  403. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> q+ talk about blah
  404. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> (q+ is command to tell Zakim you want to added to the speaker queue during a telcon)
  405. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> s/to added/to be added/
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  408. # [16:58] <annevk> This RDF nonsense makes role= confusing
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  419. # [17:38] <Philip`> Hmm, how odd - Safari (at least in old versions) seems to fail if I define a "function native(...)", while no other browser minds :-(
  420. # [17:39] <annevk> -> #webkit
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  422. # [17:42] <hasather> Philip`: they probably don't allow future reserved words either then
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  430. # [19:21] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[Away]
  431. # [19:28] * Hixie looks at the responses to his e-mail on www-html and decides to just leave it alone
  432. # [19:29] <Hixie> i don't understand why people think that something that the spec says is non-conformant is somehow a "feature"
  433. # [19:31] <annevk> Bjoern had a nice response
  434. # [19:31] <Hixie> not really
  435. # [19:31] <Hixie> it was a "look at me, i'm so clever" response that totally missed the point
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  439. # [19:37] * annevk filed a bug on something Acid3 tests today
  440. # [19:37] <Hixie> heh
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  442. # [19:37] <Hixie> which one?
  443. # [19:37] <annevk> exposing DOCTYPE in text/html
  444. # [19:37] <Hixie> ah
  445. # [19:38] <annevk> I think we got bugs on the other failures
  446. # [19:38] <Hixie> probably filed by me :-P
  447. # [19:39] <Hixie> * Presentational elements are kept. This includes the HR element,
  448. # [19:39] <Hixie> SMALL, B, and I. This is 2007; NONE of them should be kept.
  449. # [19:39] * Hixie wonders how those are presentational anymore
  450. # [19:40] <Hixie> mind you the same person thought <m> was presentational
  451. # [19:40] <Hixie> so...
  452. # [19:41] <Hixie> maybe they're confused and think "presentational" means "easy" and "semantic" means "hard"
  453. # [19:41] <Hixie> that would explain it
  454. # [19:41] <Hixie> lol the same person wants us to remove indeterminate progress bars
  455. # [19:42] <annevk> I was just reading that e-mail
  456. # [19:42] <annevk> I think I agree with his last point
  457. # [19:42] <annevk> but I don't have a better solution
  458. # [19:43] <annevk> (last point of the list)
  459. # [19:43] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/mid/tkrat.c998060f76b1e71c@greytower.net is the e-mail, fwiw
  460. # [19:44] <Hixie> not sure why APIs shouldn't be defined
  461. # [19:44] <Hixie> it's not a markup language
  462. # [19:44] <Hixie> it's "web apps 1.0"
  463. # [19:45] <annevk> The APIs that are markup language neutral
  464. # [19:46] <Hixie> i guess i don't really care about "language neutral". the web is html.
  465. # [19:47] <Philip`> It's not WA1 - it's WA1-in-the-context-of-becoming-HTML5 (at least in that email discussion), so the HTML name gives some justification for wanting it to be a markup language
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  468. # [19:51] <Hixie> i guess my point of view on that is that i have bigger fish to fry than trying to get the ideal specification silos sorted out
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  470. # [19:53] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  471. # [20:02] <annevk> Just got an e-mail that says the following:
  472. # [20:02] <annevk> Would save the trouble of going through and adding alt="" to all the
  473. # [20:02] <annevk> non-content elements when validating. The alt attribute should be
  474. # [20:02] <annevk> automatically applied to <object> and <img> at least.
  475. # [20:02] <annevk> (plus quoting my last message to whatwg@whatwg.or
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  487. # [21:04] <annevk> Hixie, Google was a typo? :)
  488. # [21:04] <annevk> being picky, that comment should probably say icon="y.png" now you changed / fixed the name of the company
  489. # [21:05] <annevk> oh, and it's "Yahoo!"
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  492. # [21:29] <Philip`> Hixie: Was "Fix a couple of typos" really meant to change the hex pattern to say "<!1DOCTYPE HTML"?
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  507. # [22:26] <Hixie> annevk: it's a comment. deal with it. :-P (i only changed it to help track down a bug with the postprocessor)
  508. # [22:30] <Hixie> i love this sentence from htm5: "Implementations that use ECMAScript to implement the APIs defined in this specification must implement them in a manner consistent with the ECMAScript Bindings for DOM Specifications specification, as this specification uses that specification's terminology. [EBFD]"
  509. # [22:30] * Hixie notes EBFD doesn't exist yet
  510. # [22:32] <annevk> House on ice
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  515. # [22:42] <nickshanks> what was with that Tina woman?
  516. # [22:42] <nickshanks> on the mailing list
  517. # [22:44] <bewest> opinionated
  518. # [22:44] <bewest> like everyone else :-)
  519. # [22:47] <annevk> hah, encoding error on http://www.greytower.net/about/
  520. # [22:48] <bewest> she does seem to have strange notions of "pragmatic" and what consitutes a sane solution
  521. # [22:48] <bewest> evidently billions of previously authored pages don't constitute evidence suitable for decision making
  522. # [22:50] <nickshanks> bewest: i think a combination of carrot and stick is needed to get web developers to fix things like raw ampersands in documents.
  523. # [22:51] <nickshanks> of course that depends on your definition of 'broken' and 'fixed' in this context
  524. # [22:51] * Joins: webben (n=benh@82.153.134.109)
  525. # [22:52] <nickshanks> people here seem to prefer the view that the web is correct and the specs are broken, not the other way around.
  526. # [22:53] <annevk> I would think that most people here think both are broken
  527. # [22:53] <Hixie> indeed
  528. # [22:53] <annevk> But realize the web is way harder to fix
  529. # [22:53] <Hixie> surely to fix the web we just have to educate the web developers
  530. # [22:54] <annevk> They're not the only people creating content, but yes
  531. # [22:54] <annevk> Reducing the need to rely on browser specific features is another important thing
  532. # [22:54] <jgraham> Everything is broken / everyone is broken...
  533. # [22:55] <annevk> Fostering interop and such
  534. # [22:55] <Hixie> (i was being sarcastic)
  535. # [22:55] <annevk> oh, duh :)
  536. # [22:55] * annevk was wondering about it
  537. # [22:56] <Hixie> you should get your sarcasm detector checked, i think it's off-calibration ;-)
  538. # [22:56] <annevk> in my defense, I still feel jetlagged
  539. # [22:56] * annevk should probably get some more sleep
  540. # [22:57] <Hixie> :-)
  541. # [22:57] <jgraham> So, if I wanted to find out how a HTML5 DOM tree for some content looked in an existing browser what would be the most sane way to do it?
  542. # [22:57] * jgraham was thinking generating a script that built the DOM
  543. # [22:57] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
  544. # [22:57] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
  545. # [22:57] <Hixie> hah
  546. # [22:57] <annevk> I'm still fast though
  547. # [22:57] <annevk> :p
  548. # [22:57] <Hixie> i beat you that time
  549. # [22:58] <annevk> oh, not in my client...
  550. # [22:58] <annevk> weird
  551. # [22:58] <Hixie> oh, actually, the logs say you did
  552. # [22:58] <Hixie> nevermind :-)
  553. # [22:58] <bewest> yeah, annevk won over here too
  554. # [22:58] <Hixie> clearly google should upgrade from our modem connection to dsl
  555. # [22:59] <bewest> btw, I read some of annevk's and maciej's work on sunday... it was pretty good
  556. # [22:59] <bewest> Window
  557. # [22:59] <bewest> and
  558. # [22:59] <bewest> uh
  559. # [22:59] <jgraham> Does that actually do what I want? I want to take some content, parse it with the HTML5 algorithm and then see how the browser redering of the resulting tree would compare with the rendering of the same source using the browser's native parser
  560. # [22:59] <bewest> evidenty by "read" I mean scanned
  561. # [22:59] <Hixie> jgraham: oh, i misunderstood
  562. # [22:59] <othermaciej> I need to update Window RSN
  563. # [23:00] <jgraham> I don't know if it's a *useful* think to want to do but it seems like one way to see how much HTML5 parsing breaks
  564. # [23:00] <jgraham> s/think/thing/
  565. # [23:00] <Hixie> jgraham: you'd want something similar, but which had two iframes, one which just got the given markup rendered straight in, and the other which round-tripped through an html5lib script to convert it to valid markup and sent that back
  566. # [23:00] <Hixie> jgraham: it would be extremely useful to have, yes
  567. # [23:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: fwiw i've collapsed most of the window spec back into the html5 spec
  568. # [23:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: there were many things that i needed to define that were just too closely tied to things Window defined
  569. # [23:01] <annevk> we should have html5lib in ECMAScript...
  570. # [23:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: e.g. session history, navigation, content sniffing, etc
  571. # [23:01] <Hixie> browsing contexts
  572. # [23:01] <Hixie> javascript security model
  573. # [23:02] <othermaciej> Hixie: yeah, that makes me feel less concerned, OTOH I still would like to help SVG and CDF with crack removal
  574. # [23:02] <othermaciej> (then the trick is making sure what they say is compatible)
  575. # [23:02] <othermaciej> if Web Apps 1.0 becomes a W3C spec, I can freely plagiarize
  576. # [23:02] <Hixie> yeah, dunno how to solve it really. maybe they should just require html support ;-)
  577. # [23:02] <Hixie> or they should keep out of that level altogether
  578. # [23:03] <annevk> so the thing is that "HTML5" not just defines a markup language but also the web navigation, security etc. model
  579. # [23:04] <Hixie> it _is_ called Web Applications 1.0
  580. # [23:04] <annevk> right
  581. # [23:04] <othermaciej> Hixie: btw, have you thought about the tension between history state objects and ability to have a URI for your current state that you can bookmark or send to others?
  582. # [23:04] <othermaciej> it seems like they solve the back problem, but not the bookmark or send problem
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  584. # [23:04] <annevk> I suppose this ok since to support the web you have to support all of that, but some people would like those features to be implementable without having to implement HTML5
  585. # [23:04] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, there's a red box in there about it. i think pushState() will need two more arguments, URL and title
  586. # [23:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: the problem is with whether it raises any security or usability issues, since the URI might not represent the state at all
  587. # [23:05] <Hixie> annevk: yeah, i'd love it if they weren't so closely related
  588. # [23:06] <Hixie> annevk: that doesn't mean it's easy to do
  589. # [23:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: not being able to change the protocol, host or port from the real one probably addresses the security issues
  590. # [23:06] <Hixie> probably
  591. # [23:06] <othermaciej> agreed there could be usability issues
  592. # [23:06] <Hixie> but i need to make sure i look at it very closely before i spec it
  593. # [23:07] <Hixie> and i havnen't gotten around to it yet
  594. # [23:07] <jgraham> Hixie: just rendering the output of html5lib doesn't work in general e.g. http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py?uri=&source=%3C%21Doctype+html%3E%0D%0A%3Chtml%3E%0D%0A%3Chead%3E%0D%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0D%0Afoo+p+%7Bcolor%3Agreen%3B%7D%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Fhead%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%3E%0D%0A%3Cfoo%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3EThis+should+be+green%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Ffoo%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Fbody%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Fhtml%3E (click View in B
  595. # [23:07] <jgraham> rowser)
  596. # [23:07] <othermaciej> the current de facto approach to this is using a fragment ID
  597. # [23:07] <Hixie> it's on my radar for this quarter, fwiw
  598. # [23:07] <annevk> you can also have usability issues by just giving someone a URL which does browser sniffing
  599. # [23:07] <othermaciej> Hixie: ok, noted
  600. # [23:07] <jgraham> (In firefox)
  601. # [23:07] <Hixie> (but let me know if it becomes more urgent for you and it'll become on my radar for the week in question)
  602. # [23:08] <othermaciej> it's not immediately urgent, I just thought of it because you mentioned session history
  603. # [23:08] <Hixie> jgraham: good point
  604. # [23:08] <Hixie> jgraham: maybe write a script that recreates the DOM using JS?
  605. # [23:09] <jgraham> Right. I guess that's the way forward :)
  606. # [23:09] <Hixie> let me know if there's anything i can do to help, short of actually writing it, because this is something i'd really love to have
  607. # [23:09] <Hixie> i encourage you to check it into the html5 repo :-)
  608. # [23:10] <annevk> does <video> already cover video-support-disabled, can't-do-video, etc.?
  609. # [23:10] <annevk> it doesn't seem like it, but maybe I missed something
  610. # [23:10] <Hixie> what do you mean by "cover"?
  611. # [23:10] <annevk> tell implementors what to do
  612. # [23:10] <annevk> it seems to just say that video should always be rendered
  613. # [23:11] <Hixie> if the implementor supports <video>, then yes, it has to be rendered (though it might not play until the user starts it).
  614. # [23:11] <annevk> where for Lynx it might make sense to offer a download link or something
  615. # [23:12] <Hixie> if you think the spec isn't clear enough, or requires something bad, send a mail with your suggestion, i'll add it to the list
  616. # [23:12] <Hixie> i think you're right and i haven't yet really taken care of handling alternative <video>/<audio> modes
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  618. # [23:25] <annevk> btw, you could also modify Hixie's dom viewer script to output the same serialization as html5lib
  619. # [23:26] <annevk> yet another way would be adding a new flag to html5lib to output the hixie html format
  620. # [23:27] <annevk> that shouldn't be that hard either
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  630. # [23:54] <fantasai> "User agents should net render elements" s/net/not/
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  633. # Session Close: Thu Apr 26 00:00:00 2007

The end :)