/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 22 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:37] <jgraham> Distinctly under tested, underoptimized, only html4 implemented (and with bugs, I'm sure): http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/table_inspector.html
  8. # [00:39] <kingryan> jgraham: error: http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ftheryanking.com%2Fmicroformats%2Fwebzine.html&scope=1&headers=1
  9. # [00:39] <jgraham> That was quick :)
  10. # [00:39] <kingryan> first try :)
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  14. # [01:00] <zcorpan> http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Farticles%2Fmobile-results&scope=1&headers=1 hmm, the first row doesn't seem right
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  16. # [01:12] <jgraham> zcorpan: I'm not sure whether HTML4 expects th cells to have headers
  17. # [01:13] <jgraham> it doesn't make sense in lots of cases but I'm trying to do what it _says_ not what makes sense
  18. # [01:14] * jgraham notes that there seems to be a bug in html5lib's etree treewalker which screws up the results for pages with multiple tables
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  21. # [01:21] * Hixie doesn't understand why he randomly has php5.cgi scripts running when he has no php on his site
  22. # [01:27] <Hixie> ohhhhh the whatwg forums are under my account
  23. # [01:27] <Hixie> that explains it
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  31. # [02:04] <webben_> jgraham: I think it's pretty clear (when you read it carefully) that HTML4 does not expect th cells to have headers. The DTD notes say to use td when a cell is both data and header.
  32. # [02:04] * webben_ thinks for a moment
  33. # [02:04] <webben_> actually, maybe not so clear
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  35. # [02:04] <webben_> i guess you can have header headers that aren't data
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  68. # [04:44] <Lachy> I wonder what the objection is to having any tool hosted on whatwg.org instead of w3.org http://www.w3.org/mid/46CB1C8B.7010208@Rhul.Ac.Uk
  69. # [04:44] <Lachy> it just seems that some people will find the smallest and most irrelevant issue to complain about
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  71. # [04:45] <Philip`> whatwg.org involves insufficient bureaucracy
  72. # [04:48] <Lachy> some people just need to realise that the barrier between the 2 groups is very artificial, since we're working toegether on the spec
  73. # [04:50] * Philip` hosts stuff on the old box on the floor next to him, through a residential ADSL connection, on someone else's domain name, since he isn't really into either bureaucracy or uptime and prefers to just stick stuff wherever is convenient
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  75. # [04:51] <Philip`> Even when system administrators are being cooperative and helpful, it seems much easier to be your own instead of trying to organise deployment with someone else
  76. # [04:52] <Lachy> yeah, I'd set up and run my own server, though my connection is not suitable enough for it - it's far too slow
  77. # [04:53] <Philip`> I get 50KB/s upload speed, which seems plenty since I only have to access it over the local network and never notice the bandwidth limit :-)
  78. # [04:54] <Lachy> what's you're download speed?
  79. # [04:56] <Philip`> Theoretically it's 1MB/sec maximum; in practice I get up to about 500KB/s and more commonly below 250KB/s
  80. # [04:57] * Philip` prefers being at university where the network bandwidth is greater than his hard disk bandwidth :-)
  81. # [04:57] <Lachy> so that's an 8 megabit connection, which is the theoretical maximum for ADSL
  82. # [04:57] <Lachy> (not ADSL2 or 2+)
  83. # [04:57] <Philip`> Yep
  84. # [04:58] <Philip`> (I've not seen either of those being available anywhere around here)
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  87. # [04:59] <Lachy> I'm stuck on a slow 1500/512kbps
  88. # [05:00] <Lachy> I was supposed to be upgraded to ADSL2 soon, but I've just noticed that they've delayed the phone exchange upgrade for another 3 months :-|
  89. # [05:03] <Philip`> If I remember correctly, I had something like 512/256 at first, then it got upgraded to 2048/512, then later to 8192/512
  90. # [05:04] <Philip`> It's nice when all these free upgrades happen :-)
  91. # [05:04] <Philip`> (Well, "free" as in "still ÂŁ30/month like it was before")
  92. # [05:04] <Lachy> at my previous place, last year, I was on 24000/1000, which was awesome!
  93. # [05:05] <Lachy> though, it practice I never got above about 8000
  94. # [05:07] <Philip`> Oops, I should go to sleep
  95. # [05:09] <karlUshi> Lachy: outside of the controversy of "ownership", there is a general policy of W3C of keeping the stuff online. It's why we usually encourage WGs to collect every documents and information on the W3C web site. To not have a 404 in 5 years from now.
  96. # [05:10] <Lachy> yeah, the persistence policy is nice
  97. # [05:12] <Lachy> however, I just find it odd that complaints come as soon as anything is hosted on whatwg.org, but no-one has complained, for example, about these logs been on krijnhoetmer.nl
  98. # [05:12] <karlUshi> :))) I would complain but I don't have energy to do so ;) or let's say I prefer to put my energy elsewhere instead ;)
  99. # [05:12] <karlUshi> question of priorities
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  104. # [06:03] <Hixie> yeah the persistence thing doesn't really apply here though since the whole point of the web app is to show what the status today is
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  115. # [08:17] <Hixie> i wish roy would actually read the sniffing part of hte spec
  116. # [08:18] <Hixie> he seems to have this idea that the spec defines an ungodly sniffing algorithm
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  118. # [08:18] <Hixie> when in fact it's barely enough to make browser vendors happy (all of them have complained about some part of it)
  119. # [08:18] <Hixie> (though ironically not the same part, which amuses me)
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  121. # [08:29] <Hixie> I hope othermaciej and anne have fun with the task force
  122. # [08:29] <othermaciej> "fun"
  123. # [08:29] <othermaciej> that is totally what I'm expecting
  124. # [08:30] <Hixie> i've subscribed to the list already
  125. # [08:30] <othermaciej> there's a list already?
  126. # [08:30] <Lachy> what's the new list?
  127. # [08:31] <Hixie> i look forward to reading it avidly and not being allowed to post
  128. # [08:31] <Hixie> the list was created months ago
  129. # [08:31] <Hixie> public-forms.tg
  130. # [08:31] <Hixie> er
  131. # [08:31] <Hixie> public-forms-tf
  132. # [08:32] <othermaciej> I will be impressed if the task force can even reach a consensus decision on what its actual job is
  133. # [08:32] <Hixie> me too!
  134. # [08:32] <Lachy> it doesn't have subscribe/unsubscribe links next to it. Is anyone allowed to subscribe?
  135. # [08:32] <Hixie> it's a public list
  136. # [08:32] <Hixie> anyone can subscribe to any w3c public list
  137. # [08:32] <Lachy> ok
  138. # [08:33] <Hixie> from a productivity point of view i am really happy i'm not going to be allowed to be involved in those discussions
  139. # [08:33] <Hixie> from the point of view of my argumentative self, though, i'm jealous :-P
  140. # [08:34] <Lachy> are only the 6 TF members allowed to discuss on that list?
  141. # [08:34] <Hixie> i think it would be pointless to have officially appointed members if other people are allowed to take part in the discussion
  142. # [08:35] <Hixie> but i guess i'm just assuming we're not allowed to post
  143. # [08:35] <Hixie> seems like it would be rude to post
  144. # [08:35] <Hixie> for us
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  146. # [08:37] <Lachy> oops, I sent my subscription request to public-forms-tf instead of public-forms-tf-request by mistake, though it still worked :-)
  147. # [08:37] <Hixie> heh
  148. # [08:41] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/46CB83B1.7040506@ramin.com.au is an interesting mail to see cross-posted to public-html and wai-xtech
  149. # [08:41] <Lachy> Hixie, on the top issues list, could you add a vote count for the issues beside the names, so one doesn't have to open them up to see
  150. # [08:42] <Lachy> someone should advise him that he should be using the title attribute
  151. # [08:51] <othermaciej> karlUshi: should I find a new IRC channel where I am free to express my opinions honestly and have a sense of humor?
  152. # [08:52] <Hixie> Lachy: done
  153. # [08:52] <Hixie> whatwg is such a channel, if you feel otherwise please let me know by private IM and i will deal with the problem
  154. # [08:52] <Lachy> Hixie, thanks
  155. # [08:53] <Lachy> othermaciej, what did karlUshi complain about?
  156. # [08:53] <Hixie> lachy: (i'd already written all the backend code for that, just had to code in the client side)
  157. # [08:54] <othermaciej> Lachy: about my comments above circa 11:30 PM
  158. # [08:55] <Lachy> the "fun" and "that is totally what I'm expecting" comments?
  159. # [08:55] <othermaciej> and "I will be impressed if the task force can even reach a consensus decision on what its actual job is"
  160. # [08:58] <Lachy> Hixie, if I open http://www.whatwg.org/issues/listen directly in Firefox, it freezes and crashes. I wonder if that's a bug in FF or a problem with one of my extensions.
  161. # [08:59] <karlUshi> othermaciej: I have no issues with what you are saying for yourself. I have issues with WG loosing time on arguments about what you are saying. And as long as you are free to express yourself in public, you have to accept in return that people are free to express negative comments about your statements. :) that is the price of your free expression. It's not one way.
  162. # [09:00] <othermaciej> karlUshi: you are free to express anything you want, but knowing that you may forward any random thing I say here to the HTML Working Group chairs with a complaint, and without even talking to me about it first, makes this not a comfortable place to converse
  163. # [09:01] <karlUshi> it /is/ a public place. it /is/ logged online. it /is not/ a comfortable place by its nature. Wake up :)
  164. # [09:01] <Lachy> othermaciej, indeed. I've had karlUshi and DanC both do that with previous things I've said
  165. # [09:01] * karlUshi is always amazed at the lack of maturity of people with regards to public expression and its consequences
  166. # [09:02] <othermaciej> karlUshi: well, my alternative is to find a place of private expression where you are not invited
  167. # [09:03] <othermaciej> karlUshi: but I would instead prefer to converse with relative comfort and in semi-obscurity, as is the norm on most public IRC channels
  168. # [09:03] <Hixie> Lachy: could be a problem accessing window.parent or something
  169. # [09:03] <karlUshi> semi-obscurity doesn't exist.
  170. # [09:03] <karlUshi> specifically when the logs are available
  171. # [09:04] <karlUshi> note that it is not about me.
  172. # [09:04] <othermaciej> it is the social norm of most IRC channels to not make a big deal of things said in the channel outside the channel (unless there is an unresolvable personal conflict)
  173. # [09:04] <karlUshi> it is about expressing one-self in a public environment which is recorded. Requesting free expression and not giving the right to other to react is... very surprising
  174. # [09:04] <othermaciej> while I can't force you to respect this social norm, I think it is rude not to do so
  175. # [09:05] <Lachy> karlUshi, others do have the right to react, but they should take it up with the person directly before involving anyone else
  176. # [09:05] <othermaciej> I'm not denying you any rights
  177. # [09:06] <karlUshi> Lachy: this specific channels is big wide open -> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/
  178. # [09:06] <Lachy> karlUshi, so?
  179. # [09:06] * karlUshi remembers suddenly the discussion about old usenet suddenly archived by Google
  180. # [09:06] <Lachy> karlUshi, that doesn't mean that one should involve higher authorities as soon as someone takes offense by what was said, without first discussing it with the offender
  181. # [09:07] <karlUshi> people willing to fight for the semi-obscurity
  182. # [09:07] <karlUshi> Lachy: I didn't take offense
  183. # [09:07] <karlUshi> read my comment above
  184. # [09:07] <karlUshi> "I have issues with WG loosing time on arguments about what you are saying."
  185. # [09:08] <Hixie> could someone clarify exactly what it is that is being complained about?
  186. # [09:09] <othermaciej> by me or by Karl?
  187. # [09:09] <Hixie> both
  188. # [09:09] <karlUshi> me: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070822#l-132
  189. # [09:09] <karlUshi> maciej: that I sent the sentence to danc and chris and maciej to say that it was not appropriate
  190. # [09:10] <Lachy> karlUshi, I don't think it was appropriate either
  191. # [09:10] <othermaciej> I'm complaining that Karl quoted a snippet of our conversation and sent it to the HTML working Group chairs with his comment that he thinks it makes me unsuitable as a Forms Task Force participant
  192. # [09:11] <karlUshi> not what I said othermaciej
  193. # [09:11] <othermaciej> which, personally, I think is nonsense; being pessimistic about the outcome doesn't in any way mean that I won't participate in good faith
  194. # [09:11] <karlUshi> "I'm note sure that is a positive statement on your will to achieve work in this task force. I find it quite sad, personally. Either you participate to something because you think it will be fruitful, either you don't participate."
  195. # [09:12] <Hixie> ok.
  196. # [09:12] <Hixie> karlUshi: please resist forwarding conversations from this channel to the chairs without discussing it with the people you are quoting first.
  197. # [09:12] <othermaciej> I participate in web standards because it is part of my job to make them good and to make the process succeed, not because it necessarily fills my heart with joy
  198. # [09:12] <karlUshi> hixie: I'm willing to do that.
  199. # [09:13] <Hixie> thank you.
  200. # [09:13] <Lachy> karlUshi, thanks
  201. # [09:13] <othermaciej> thanks, karlUshi
  202. # [09:13] <karlUshi> the funny thing
  203. # [09:13] <Lachy> does that apply to #html-wg too?
  204. # [09:13] <karlUshi> is that at first I sent it in private specifically to make a recorded mess online
  205. # [09:13] <karlUshi> which maciej just did ;)
  206. # [09:13] <Hixie> #html-wg is danc's problem
  207. # [09:14] <karlUshi> to not make
  208. # [09:14] <Hixie> you know, public-html is amusing
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  210. # [09:14] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
  211. # [09:14] <othermaciej> karlUshi: well, if you asked me about my comments here in the first place, then the public record would have our conversation, not just my out-of-context remarks
  212. # [09:15] <Hixie> many threads start with one message that i save because it has good feedback in it, followed by a lot of messages that really don't help much either way
  213. # [09:15] <Hixie> as an example:
  214. # [09:15] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/E99FD39C-9AE3-491C-B5EE-1405AF70A7A7@googlemail.com - useful feedback
  215. # [09:15] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/46CB1808.1010701@Rhul.Ac.Uk - quibbling feedback
  216. # [09:15] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/op.txe6ftgzidj3kv@hp-a0a83fcd39d2 - feedback repeating the first point for the benefit of the second poster
  217. # [09:15] <othermaciej> karlUshi: I stand behind them, but I will note that I participate in good faith and make a strong effort in many endeavors despite pessimism about the outcome
  218. # [09:16] <othermaciej> the HTML Working Group itself is one such example
  219. # [09:16] <othermaciej> but I would like to be free to voice my cynicism once in a while
  220. # [09:19] <Lachy> hmm. I still haven't received the confirmation email to confirm my subscription to public-forms-tf was successful.
  221. # [09:19] <Hixie> maybe we're on a waiting list
  222. # [09:20] <karlUshi> I'm not the moderator
  223. # [09:21] <othermaciej> good night everyone
  224. # [09:21] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  225. # [09:24] <Hixie> nn
  226. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> Hixie - does your admonishment about forwarding links to comments in the public log for this channel apply only to forwarding such links to chairs, or to anybody?
  227. # [09:26] * Parts: karlUshi (n=karl@dhcp-247-173.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Leaving")
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  229. # [09:31] <Hixie> MikeSmith: it was merely a request, to karl, that he not forward conversations from this channel to the chairs without discussing them with the people involved first
  230. # [09:32] <Hixie> it is naturally common courtesey to speak to someone before you quote them in any case
  231. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> I agree completely.
  232. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> It's just that this is first time I can every remember seeing you make any request from anybody on this channel about what their behavior should be.
  233. # [09:35] <Hixie> it's the first time i've had someone say they were starting to feel uncomfortable talking openly in this channel
  234. # [09:43] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@dhcp-247-173.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
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  242. # [10:49] <krijnh> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070822#l-97
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  244. # [10:49] <krijnh> After this Karl has sent me a mail to ask if the irc logs could be moved to w3.org
  245. # [10:50] <krijnh> Good idea? :)
  246. # [10:50] * zcorpan couldn't care less
  247. # [10:54] <krijnh> Me neither
  248. # [10:54] <krijnh> I'm not about to take my site down any time soon
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  250. # [10:58] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju
  251. # [10:58] <Hixie> the w3c is certainly very welcome to host irc logs
  252. # [10:58] <Hixie> as is everyone else
  253. # [10:59] <Hixie> at least as far as this channel goes
  254. # [10:59] <Hixie> now if they want to argue that they don't want you logging their network's channels, that's between them and you on their network :-)
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  257. # [10:59] <krijnh> Of course
  258. # [11:00] <krijnh> But they could just let me know, if they don't want me to do that :)
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  261. # [11:07] <zcorpan> ok. <object>. time for me to create tests on that i think
  262. # [11:07] <krijnh> Didn't Robert Burns make those already? :)
  263. # [11:08] <zcorpan> they weren't tests
  264. # [11:08] <Lachy> his tests weren't good
  265. # [11:08] <krijnh> I'm running almost 1337 mails behind, so I wouldn't know :(
  266. # [11:08] <zcorpan> 1337 :)
  267. # [11:08] <krijnh> 1332 tbe :)
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  273. # [12:01] <Lachy> I'm surprised by how many people have objected to "Solve Real Problems"
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  277. # [12:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070821#l-666
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  283. # [13:40] <zcorpan> hmm, why does http://validator.nu/ give me the About page?
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  285. # [13:57] <zcorpan> Hixie: "Whenever the data attribute changes" -- does this also apply when the data attribute is removed?
  286. # [13:57] <zcorpan> on <object>
  287. # [13:58] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/semantics/object/dynamic/001.htm
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  300. # [16:01] <Lachy> what does this mean from Karl against Well-Defined Behaviour: "Dangerous. Typical example the search form with the magnifier of Safari, which led people to create invalid markup." http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results#xwdb
  301. # [16:02] <Lachy> how can one blame the search form for the invalid markup on the web?
  302. # [16:04] <Lachy> I don't understand Sander's response either: "Given that the last sentence lists specific exceptions, this Design Principle appears to close the door for a UA to for instance render tables with fixed thead and tfoot and scrollable tbody; respect Content-Type; display equivalents side by side; not support javascript; etc."
  303. # [16:05] <zcorpan> i thought karl was in favor of well-defined behavior: http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/07/why-html-5-matters.html
  304. # [16:06] <Lachy> well, they're the only 2 that disagreed, and since their responses don't make sense, they don't really count.
  305. # [16:13] <Philip`> It seems unfair to say they don't count - it's more useful to say that they don't make sense and should clarify their position
  306. # [16:14] <Lachy> oh, I just meant for my purposes. I'm going through the entire results, looking for why people do and don't agree, in order to write my own responses
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  308. # [16:15] <Philip`> Ah, okay
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  314. # [16:39] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=66#400 -- spam in sig?
  315. # [16:41] <hasather> zcorpan: yes
  316. # [16:44] <zcorpan> user now-or-never begone
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  326. # [17:11] <aja> did conformance checker move, or just temporarily unavailable?
  327. # [17:12] <zcorpan> aja: i would guess a mistake on hsivonen's part; you could email him and ask
  328. # [17:13] * aja was hoping to catch him here
  329. # [17:14] <Philip`> The site was offline yesterday for maintenance (at least I think that's what it said), so it looks like some glitch when it came back up
  330. # [17:15] <aja> Philip`: saw that yesterday
  331. # [17:16] * aja doesn't speak any Nordic languages, either :)
  332. # [17:16] * Philip` wonders how hard it is to run a mirror of the validator
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  415. # [23:53] * Parts: [YaaL] (i=yaal@hell.pl) ("Nuda, panie. Aż się chce wyjść z kina. I wychodzę.")
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  417. # [23:56] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@152.80-202-164.nextgentel.com)
  418. # [23:57] * Quits: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben) (Remote closed the connection)
  419. # [23:58] * Joins: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@17.255.111.87)
  420. # Session Close: Thu Aug 23 00:00:00 2007

The end :)