/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 06 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <Philip`> os.environ['QUERY_STRING']?
  4. # [00:01] <jgraham> Lachy: httplib is built in but httplib2 is supposed to be better
  5. # [00:02] <jgraham> Where builtin = standard-lib
  6. # [00:02] <gsnedders> ah well, I'm going, g'nite
  7. # [00:02] <jgraham> goodnight
  8. # [00:02] <gsnedders> I'll try to stay out of sweet shops, though, jgraham :)
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  12. # [00:16] <jgraham> Lachy: Did you find what you wanted?
  13. # [00:16] <Lachy> I think so, os.environ gives me the query string from GET requests, and I think stdin will give me post data
  14. # [00:18] <Lachy> hmm. stdin didn't work for me
  15. # [00:21] * jgraham wonders if there is a sane way of setting up python on dreamhost
  16. # [00:21] <Lachy> oh, it works. but not when I try to read stdin after I import cgi, which already reads it
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  19. # [00:25] <jgraham> http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/tables/table_inspector.html now with "smart colspan" option
  20. # [00:26] <annevk> audio on ubuntu works again after a reboot
  21. # [00:26] <annevk> bizarre
  22. # [00:26] <jgraham> Er, I meant to link to the html5.org copy there
  23. # [00:26] <annevk> just like windows :)
  24. # [00:26] <jgraham> http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.html
  25. # [00:32] <annevk> "smart colspan" meaning I can omit scope= entirely on my table?
  26. # [00:33] <annevk> feature request: what you probably also want is a view where all algorithms are applied so you can easily see the differences for a single table; no real suggestions for the UI though
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  34. # [01:02] <jgraham> annevk: "smart colspan" is what Ben Millard described on the list. It allows you to emit scope="" on your table entirely, yes.
  35. # [01:02] <annevk> awesome
  36. # [01:03] <annevk> I was thinking about that when I wrote the table
  37. # [01:03] <jgraham> I agree about the multiple algorithms thing; I think I can make it work technically but I'm not sure how to present it either
  38. # [01:03] <annevk> Now in theory the first column should maybe have scope=row for each row but I don't really like that. I'm not sure how to solve that issue
  39. # [01:04] <annevk> (Don't really like the typing.)
  40. # [01:04] <annevk> Making the table XML well-formed so I could enter it in my blog system was already a pain
  41. # [01:04] <annevk> I should probably have used html5lib or something...
  42. # [01:05] <takkaria> fwiw, mobile IE seems to render pages OK though is rather terrible at fitting things on-screen decently
  43. # [01:06] <jgraham> annevk: I think special casing rows or columns that are entirely heading cells to be like scope="column" or scope="row" respectively should work
  44. # [01:07] <annevk> the problem is that they're not headings
  45. # [01:07] <annevk> well, they're both (as HTML4 seems to allow)
  46. # [01:08] <jgraham> I don't understand why html 4 suggests cells that are both data and headings should be marked as data
  47. # [01:08] <jgraham> It seems much more useful to mark them as headings
  48. # [01:08] <annevk> would you say they're headings?
  49. # [01:08] <annevk> the location column
  50. # [01:08] <jgraham> Arguably, yes.
  51. # [01:09] <jgraham> Although I think the table makes sense if you don't mark them as such
  52. # [01:10] <jgraham> Anyway, bedtime
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  54. # [01:11] <annevk> prolly a good idea
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  57. # [01:51] <Philip`> Hmm, Opera 9.5 has fixed the BGRA vs RGBA ordering in getImageData, but it looks like it's still the wrong way round in putImageData
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  60. # [01:53] <annevk> ouch
  61. # [01:53] <annevk> I still haven't gotten around testing those methods yet (thoroughly at least); also because I don't really like how they're currently defined
  62. # [01:54] <annevk> If you could file a bug that'd be nice
  63. # [01:54] * annevk -> bed
  64. # [01:54] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/putimgdata_rgb.html
  65. # [01:55] * Philip` will do
  66. # [02:13] <Hixie> heh
  67. # [02:13] <Hixie> i just discovered something
  68. # [02:13] <Hixie> the first mention of smell-o-vision in the htmlwg and whatwg irc archives that i can find is actually from DanC
  69. # [02:13] <Hixie> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070426#l-517
  70. # [02:14] <Lachy> ha!
  71. # [02:16] <hober> Yeah, but he's not a cabal member, so it's not offensive when he does it. :/
  72. # [02:16] <Lachy> who keeps the membership lists for the cabal?
  73. # [02:18] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.144)
  74. # [02:18] <Hixie> i wonder if S. Mike Dierken and Mike Dierken are the same person
  75. # [02:19] <kingryan> Lachy: we developed a microformat for cabal lists, so the list can be distributed
  76. # [02:22] <Lachy> oh right, so to join, I just markup my membership details using hCard and rel=cabal?
  77. # [02:22] <Lachy> :-)
  78. # [02:22] <kingryan> yeah
  79. # [02:29] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.144)
  80. # [02:34] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/radial.html is an interestingly crazy effect in O9.5
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  95. # [03:16] <Hixie> i have got to stop responding to john's e-mails
  96. # [03:16] <Hixie> (responses in www-archive for the morbidly curious)
  97. # [03:17] <Hixie> (his e-mails aren't publicly archived as far as i can tell -- he only cc'ed the secret html4all cabal -- membership list at http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/Special:Listusers )
  98. # [03:22] <othermaciej> omg, he has an *actual* secret cabal!
  99. # [03:23] <Philip`> (Isn't just the list of people who've bothered to register on the wiki (which doesn't appear to be restricted)?)
  100. # [03:23] <Philip`> s/ / that /
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  102. # [03:32] <Philip`> It seems a bit of a waste of time to write <acronym title="information and communication technology">ICT</acronym> when JAWS apparently reads it like "icked"
  103. # [03:34] <Philip`> (At least that suggests that people are happy to write things that are unhelpful today, in the hope that they will be helpful in the future when the tools catch up)
  104. # [03:38] <karlUshi> interesting
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  111. # [04:15] * Philip` guesses http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/ is the relevant list
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  118. # [04:28] <Lachy> Philip`, how did you find that URL?
  119. # [04:29] <Lachy> did you just guess it? I was looking for it earlier
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  122. # [04:43] <Philip`> Lachy: http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/New_Logos_Archive_and_discussion_page points to list@html4all.org, so it's just the public archives from that
  123. # [04:44] <Lachy> yeah, I knew about the mailing list. Didn't know how to find the archives
  124. # [04:44] <Philip`> (Note to whoever's reading the logs: if you don't want to work in the open, I think Mailman's "Archiving Options" -> archive_private is the relevant setting)
  125. # [04:44] <Lachy> you shouldn't tell them that!
  126. # [04:45] <Lachy> if they do, we won't be able to follow their discussions
  127. # [04:46] <Philip`> We shouldn't follow their discussions if they don't want us to
  128. # [04:48] <Philip`> Incidentally, I like some of their logos - I think the WHATWG's "(?)" is rather too plain and boring
  129. # [04:50] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  130. # [04:52] <Lachy> the current whatwg logo was an improvement from the original one that Hixie had made
  131. # [04:53] <Philip`> Was the original one a cat?
  132. # [04:53] <Lachy> no
  133. # [04:55] <Philip`> Oh :-(
  134. # [04:57] <Lachy> http://web.archive.org/web/20040529190138/http://www.whatwg.org/
  135. # [04:57] <Lachy> http://web.archive.org/web/20040714070149/http://www.whatwg.org/
  136. # [04:59] <Philip`> The red circled question mark isn't bad, but the tiny writing and oddly sloped "Working Group" beside it look a bit suspect :-)
  137. # [05:26] <gavin> http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000197.html
  138. # [05:26] <gavin> haha
  139. # [05:28] <gavin> it's like a game of hide and seek with mailing lists and IRC
  140. # [05:29] * gavin goes off to start a secret list@web-futures-for-cats.org mailing list
  141. # [05:37] <Philip`> It's great how modern technology lets you have a conversation where each message goes from IRC to web-based log to mailing list to web archive then round the circle again, probably with some diversions through other mailing lists every so often
  142. # [05:38] <Philip`> We just need to integrate it with Twitter somehow
  143. # [05:38] <Lachy> quick, someone twitter it as well!
  144. # [05:38] <Hixie> what was the e-mail in which we were accused of being a cabal?
  145. # [05:39] <gavin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/1006.html
  146. # [05:40] <Hixie> thx
  147. # [05:40] <Philip`> http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-August/000074.html has various cabal-related bits
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  149. # [05:42] <Philip`> (http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-August/000004.html too - they're not denying its existence)
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  151. # [05:44] <Lachy> Hixie, why did you take the twitter form off whatwg.org?
  152. # [05:44] <Lachy> oh, no, it's still there
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  154. # [05:58] <Hixie> http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000164.html
  155. # [06:01] <Hixie> (http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/mailman/listinfo/list_html4all.org to subscribe, apparently)
  156. # [06:02] <Hixie> eep, i'm on the archives of that mailing list!
  157. # [06:08] <Lachy> if we subscribed, would they kick us off?
  158. # [06:08] <Hixie> dunno :-)
  159. # [06:08] <Hixie> i have no intention of subscribing
  160. # [06:08] <Hixie> ooo
  161. # [06:08] <Hixie> an e-mail from freedom scientifir
  162. # [06:08] <Hixie> freedom scientific
  163. # [06:08] * Hixie reads
  164. # [06:08] <Lachy> nor do I, I follow enough mailing lists :-)
  165. # [06:09] <Hixie> ooo, they forwarded my e-mail on to someone
  166. # [06:09] <Lachy> Hixie, was it a private email or archived somewhere?
  167. # [06:09] <Hixie> private
  168. # [06:09] <Lachy> ok
  169. # [06:09] <Hixie> i e-mailed them my set of tests earlier
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  171. # [06:11] <Lachy> Hixie, did you see this? http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/access/ScreenReadersAWebDeveloperFailure
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  174. # [06:18] <Hixie> i'm replying to it now
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  184. # [08:29] <Lachy> Hey Hixie, to create a persistent connection, e.g. for <event-source), is the best way to do that with a loop like this: while (true) { sleep(10); /* check for new events and send them ... */ }
  185. # [08:32] <Hixie> no
  186. # [08:32] <Lachy> ok, how would I do it then?
  187. # [08:32] <Hixie> you'd want some sort of select() loop or other os-supported mechanism like waiting on a semaphor
  188. # [08:32] <Hixie> or other signalling mechanism
  189. # [08:33] <Hixie> a loop would be very cpu intensive
  190. # [08:33] <marcosc> you really should not need a loop
  191. # [08:33] <marcosc> as hixie said
  192. # [08:34] <Lachy> ok, how do you do it with your whatwg.org/status/ app?
  193. # [08:34] <Hixie> you mean issues/listen ?
  194. # [08:34] <Hixie> or?
  195. # [08:34] <Lachy> yes
  196. # [08:35] <othermaciej> Lachy: how/where are you trying to implement it?
  197. # [08:35] <Lachy> I was just wanting to do a few experements
  198. # [08:35] <Lachy> on my own server
  199. # [08:36] <Hixie> it uses blocking I/O
  200. # [08:36] <marcosc> seems that the server is not closing the connection...
  201. # [08:36] <Hixie> i can put the code up somewhere hold on
  202. # [08:37] <Lachy> is it in perl?
  203. # [08:37] <Hixie> yeah
  204. # [08:38] <Lachy> perl is very cryptic, but ok :-(
  205. # [08:38] <othermaciej> Lachy: you want to make a server-side script that's meant to connect to an event-source?
  206. # [08:38] <marcosc> my mum codes in perl :)
  207. # [08:38] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/temp/listen and http://damowmow.com/temp/common.pm
  208. # [08:39] <Lachy> othermaciej, yeah, just wanted to test out <event-source> in opera
  209. # [08:39] <othermaciej> a loop that sleeps won't hog the CPU
  210. # [08:39] <othermaciej> but it won't be that responsive, if it is polling for events somewhere
  211. # [08:39] <Hixie> a loop that sleeps will not scale
  212. # [08:40] <Lachy> yeah, I didn't think it would
  213. # [08:40] <Hixie> it will quickly hog the cpu if you have many
  214. # [08:40] <Hixie> which is what i meant
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  216. # [08:40] <Hixie> even one alone is bad practice, since it prevents the cpu from stepping down, etc
  217. # [08:40] <othermaciej> how to do it depends on where your events are coming from
  218. # [08:40] <Hixie> yes
  219. # [08:41] <Hixie> Lachy: did the code help?
  220. # [08:41] <othermaciej> sleep() doesn't prevent the CPU from stepping down afaik
  221. # [08:41] <othermaciej> sleep yields the CPU until the interval has passed
  222. # [08:41] <Lachy> Hixie, I'm just trying to decrypt it :-)
  223. # [08:41] <Hixie> hehe
  224. # [08:41] <Hixie> othermaciej: it doesn't prevent it from stepping down while sleeping, no
  225. # [08:42] <othermaciej> but yeah, if events are infrequent, you don't want your process to wake all the time
  226. # [08:42] <Hixie> othermaciej: but it forces the cpu to run every Nms even if nothing has happened
  227. # [08:42] <Hixie> right
  228. # [08:44] <othermaciej> if your event-source script is ultimately getting events from a network connection, you can just read off of that network connection
  229. # [08:44] <othermaciej> if it is a single connection, just blocking I/O should do
  230. # [08:44] <othermaciej> if you are multiplexing, you'd want to use select(), or multithreading
  231. # [08:46] <othermaciej> if it's just for testing purposes, you could just send a fixed set of events with predetermined intervals in between
  232. # [08:47] <Lachy> othermaciej, that's what I was thinking about doing, but I was curious how else it could be done
  233. # [08:48] <othermaciej> well if it's just a test case, using sleep is fine
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  265. # [12:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: yt?
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  267. # [13:02] <Philip`> I like Twisted for asynchronous network IO (in Python)
  268. # [13:02] <Philip`> (though I've not tried using it for event-source in particular)
  269. # [13:03] <Philip`> (and it does take quite a while to work out how Twisted works)
  270. # [13:04] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-242-169.pool.emnet.ne.jp)
  271. # [13:05] <virtuelv> Philip`: twisted works great for event-source
  272. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> new SVG viewer for MSIE released here today in Japan
  273. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> http://blog.svg-map.com/2007/09/svg_map_toolkit.html
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  275. # [13:12] <Philip`> Is there meant to be a decent two-way communication system somewhere (e.g. for real-time multiplayer games)? event-source only seems to cover one direction, and I couldn't find a reliable way to go the other way
  276. # [13:18] <annevk> I think the idea was to extend TCPConnection to P2P at some point (and also let it cover bluetooth and such) but that's just an idea
  277. # [13:18] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-211-80-64.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  278. # [13:19] <othermaciej> TCPConnection could be used as a two-way protocol to talk to a server
  279. # [13:19] <Philip`> I wouldn't expect P2P to be too useful in most cases, since firewalls tend to get in the way
  280. # [13:19] <othermaciej> now that I think about it, TCPConnection and event-source do awfully similar things but in almost completely different ways
  281. # [13:19] <othermaciej> seems kinda random
  282. # [13:20] <othermaciej> P2P in the browser == instant botnet
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  297. # [15:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: ping
  298. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> annevk - when is XHR spec expected to go to CR?
  299. # [15:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: btw, I'm implementing text output now
  300. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - cool. very happy to hear that
  301. # [15:51] <zcorpan> text output?
  302. # [15:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: validator output in text/plain as opposed to text/html
  303. # [15:58] <annevk> MikeSmith, needs to go to LC first and there are some outstanding issues
  304. # [16:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: aha
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  309. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> annevk - so any idea how soon it might go to LC?
  310. # [16:12] <annevk> "when it's ready"
  311. # [16:12] <annevk> this likely involves someone creating lots of additional testcases to make sure we're ready although maybe we just try to go to LC again like last time...
  312. # [16:12] <annevk> dunno
  313. # [16:16] * zcorpan should do that some time
  314. # [16:17] <Philip`> Hmm, I can (in Opera) do <canvas width=0> and it stays 0, but if I do setAttribute('width', 0) then it goes to 300
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  319. # [16:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fabout.validator.nu%2F&out=text
  320. # [16:50] * MikeSmith trying now
  321. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> sweet
  322. # [16:50] <hsivonen> whew. that was a slow deployment. still fallout of the outage from the 21st of last month to fix
  323. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - hmm, any way to put the error message and line numbers on one line?
  324. # [16:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I guess I could do that, but this format is supposed to be human-readable as opposed to machine-parseable
  325. # [16:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the service will requild itself in a moment
  326. # [16:54] <hsivonen> (I need to figure out how to make these updates less disruptive by using mod_jk load balancing)
  327. # [16:54] <Lachy_> hsivonen, that looks like it's quite well designed for machine parsing anyway
  328. # [16:56] <Lachy_> shouldn't it output the erroneous code for reference? e.g. for the bad attribute value, so users can easily see what the mistake is before going and looking at the markup
  329. # [16:57] <hsivonen> Lachy_: yes, once I first implement support for that feature in any output format at all
  330. # [16:57] <hsivonen> Lachy_: on my near-future todo list
  331. # [16:57] <Lachy_> oh, ok
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  335. # [17:04] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: fixed
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  337. # [17:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: when the document passes, it might be useful to know if it was html or xhtml
  338. # [17:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah
  339. # [17:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: umm. it alread tells it
  340. # [17:14] <zcorpan> ah. indeed
  341. # [17:15] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  342. # [17:15] <hsivonen> only on the (X)HTML5 side, though
  343. # [17:15] <hsivonen> the generic side should emit Info: blah blah
  344. # [17:16] <zcorpan> yeah, looks good
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  346. # [17:26] <hsivonen> annevk: POSTing doc in entity body now supported by validator.nu
  347. # [17:26] <hsivonen> annevk: curl -d 'uoeua' -H 'Content-Type: text/html' 'http://html5.validator.nu/?out=text'
  348. # [17:27] <hsivonen> annevk: compare with: curl -d '<!DOCTYPE html><title></title>' -H 'Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8' 'http://html5.validator.nu/?out=text'
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  354. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - now I'm getting the error message on first line, line number on next, column number on next
  355. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> 3 lines instead of 1 ...
  356. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> that is by design?
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  359. # [18:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sorry. I misread your request
  360. # [18:11] <hsivonen> I'd rather not put the line and col on the same line as the message
  361. # [18:11] <hsivonen> if I put them after, the message may be so long that the numbers are hard to glance at
  362. # [18:12] <hsivonen> if I put them before, the text before the message will vary
  363. # [18:12] <hsivonen> as it is possible to have no number, only line or both line and col
  364. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I see the issues with that. Wondering if in spite of that, if there's any way you could you provide single-line output as an option.
  365. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> I understand the need to make the output human-readable
  366. # [18:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: would xml or JSON be overkill for your use case?
  367. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - yeah, for the use case I had in mind, it would be
  368. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> The use case behind my original request was to make the output easily consumable by editing apps
  369. # [18:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. I'll change the format
  370. # [18:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: for that use case, XML or JSON should be used
  371. # [18:16] <hsivonen> this format is too ambiguous and unstable
  372. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - ideally, yeah. But there is a certain standard format that many *nix apps at least already have support for parsing out
  373. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> Emacs-style or something
  374. # [18:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you have a spec for the desired output?
  375. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - looking now
  376. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - couldn't find anything right away now, but will look again later
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  378. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> I'm headed off to sleep (1:19am here now)
  379. # [18:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
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  393. # [19:12] <hsivonen> isn't there a way to make the python httplib handle redirects?
  394. # [19:14] <annevk> there should be...
  395. # [19:14] <hober> httplib2 does it...
  396. # [19:14] <Lachy_> hsivonen, you can just do redirects like this in python:
  397. # [19:14] <Lachy_> print "Status: 302 Found"
  398. # [19:14] <Lachy_> print "Location: ..."
  399. # [19:14] <annevk> it's not about making, it's about handling
  400. # [19:14] <hsivonen> Lachy_: on the client
  401. # [19:16] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  402. # [19:17] <hsivonen> hober: I'm trying to make a simple script that works with the standard lib
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  406. # [19:19] <hsivonen> http://about.validator.nu/html5check.py
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  408. # [19:22] <hsivonen> annevk: well, now there is a way to upload files. still not through the browser, though
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  410. # [19:23] <annevk> you should probably add .htm and .xht
  411. # [19:23] <Lachy> wow, this is a very nice response from John Foliot! http://www.w3.org/mid/004301c7f0a7$bdc00070$643d42ab@Piglet
  412. # [19:24] <hsivonen> annevk: they are *so* last century :-)
  413. # [19:24] <hsivonen> annevk: but yeah
  414. # [19:25] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net)
  415. # [19:26] <annevk> and .xml
  416. # [19:26] <annevk> and maybe others...
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  421. # [19:40] <Lachy> hsivonen, you should output the validation results to stdout instead of stderr. stderr should be for errors in the program itself
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  424. # [19:50] * annevk is afraid his pictures will remain inaccessible
  425. # [19:50] <annevk> adding alt= is just too much work
  426. # [19:52] <takkaria> anyone else find it amusing that the first thing in the list archives for html4all is making a logo?
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  429. # [20:02] <Lachy> hsivonen, have you added Content-Access-Control: allow <*> to the validator response so it can be done from XHR?
  430. # [20:03] <annevk> that should be Access-Control:allow <*>
  431. # [20:03] <annevk> please code to the standards!
  432. # [20:03] <annevk> (well, editor drafts)
  433. # [20:03] <Lachy> oh, why did it change?
  434. # [20:03] <Lachy> I was looking at the /TR/ page
  435. # [20:04] <annevk> because people wanted it to be shorter and I agreed
  436. # [20:05] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2007Aug/0010.html
  437. # [20:05] <Philip`> takkaria: That sounds like an unusual definition of "first" - the earliest messages are about it being a new list and wondering what to do about the old one
  438. # [20:06] <Lachy> ok. I've updated my own script that uses it now :-)
  439. # [20:07] <takkaria> Philip`: logo idea is 13th post, on the second day of the list's archived posts
  440. # [20:08] <takkaria> that's close enough to first for me
  441. # [20:09] <Philip`> It'd be great if someone could compete in the Olympics and get a gold medal for coming 13th since it's close enough to first ;-)
  442. # [20:09] <takkaria> :)
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  444. # [20:10] <takkaria> I've just been in groups of various sorts before where one of the first things people have talked about is getting a good logo
  445. # [20:10] <takkaria> I mean really, what kind of cabal needs a logo? it goes against the grain
  446. # [20:13] <Philip`> A cabal with a wiki with a logo like http://html4all.org/wiki/skins/common/images/wiki.png needs one
  447. # [20:15] <kingryan> a cabal needs a secret handshake before a logo
  448. # [20:17] <Philip`> What's up with http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.css&action=raw&ctype=text/css&smaxage=18000 ? That doesn't really look like sensible CSS
  449. # [20:17] * annevk needs history.pushState()
  450. # [20:17] <annevk> bookmarks like http://anne.is.weggeweest.nl/image-viewer#2006,madrid-waf,1 are dubious
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  453. # [20:27] <Hixie> sweet, they actually are going to try to fix the bugs i reported, in jaws9
  454. # [20:28] <annevk> nice
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  458. # [20:37] <Hixie> people need to stop seeing statements of fact and assuming that i forgot to make them requiremenets
  459. # [20:39] <annevk> that would probably require pointers to the place where the requirement is made
  460. # [20:39] <Philip`> People should assume you never make mistakes and trust that everything is perfect without needing to ask questions? :-)
  461. # [20:40] <Hixie> yes! :-P
  462. # [20:41] <Dashiva> Philip`: Not much point in being sinister overlord of the cabal otherwise, is there?
  463. # [20:41] <kingryan> Hixie: I think you need to be more sinister in order to get people to stop asking questions. ;)
  464. # [20:44] * Quits: grimboy (n=grimboy@85-211-253-25.dsl.pipex.com) (Connection timed out)
  465. # [20:45] <Hixie> annevk: ping
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  468. # [20:50] <annevk> Hixie, pong
  469. # [20:51] <Hixie> hey
  470. # [20:51] <Hixie> so i'm looking at xhr2
  471. # [20:51] <Hixie> regarding the constructor
  472. # [20:52] <Hixie> would it make snese to have var x = new XMLHttpRequest(url, method, data, onreadystatechange); ?
  473. # [20:53] <annevk> sounds interesting
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  479. # [21:10] <virtuelv_> Hixie: I'd like to see that as well
  480. # [21:13] <annevk> would you still be able to do var x = new XHR(...); x.onload = ...; as in, would the request be done after the current script block is executed?
  481. # [21:14] * Joins: grimboy_uk (n=grimboy@85-211-251-122.dsl.pipex.com)
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  484. # [21:16] <jgraham> Am I right in thinking that screenreaders don't read display:none content?
  485. # [21:16] <billmason> That is correct.
  486. # [21:17] <virtuelv_> annevk: possibly?
  487. # [21:17] <jgraham> Thanks
  488. # [21:18] <virtuelv_> I'd still like to be able to actually specify and send it in one operation
  489. # [21:18] <annevk> virtuelv_, I believe that's the case with img.src = ...; img.onload = ...; for instance...
  490. # [21:18] <annevk> although not necessarily so in all implementations...
  491. # [21:18] <annevk> well yeah, Hixie's constructor allows that already
  492. # [21:20] <Dashiva> It looks quite a similar to the one I suggested, so I'm all for it
  493. # [21:23] <takkaria> 6
  494. # [21:23] <takkaria> er, sorry, cat on keyboard
  495. # [21:25] <Hixie> annevk: well, that's why i included the handler in the constructor
  496. # [21:25] * Joins: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  497. # [21:26] <hsivonen> annevk: extension fixed in my local copy
  498. # [21:26] <hsivonen> Lachy: stderr fixed in my local copy
  499. # [21:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: what are the implications of Access-Control?
  500. # [21:27] * Quits: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben) (Remote closed the connection)
  501. # [21:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: should I allow XHR only to XML and JSON?
  502. # [21:28] <hsivonen> hmm. RFC 2616 tells me I MUST NOT silently follow redirects on POST
  503. # [21:28] * Joins: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@17.255.99.217)
  504. # [21:28] <hsivonen> should I care?
  505. # [21:28] * annevk wonders what the scenario is
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  507. # [21:29] <hsivonen> annevk: the html5check.py script
  508. # [21:30] <hsivonen> annevk: if html5.validator.nu stops being the preferred location of the service
  509. # [21:30] <annevk> ah, I see
  510. # [21:31] <annevk> you probably should, so they don't send their data to some weird place instead if html5.validator.nu is hijacked
  511. # [21:31] <hsivonen> ok
  512. # [21:31] <hsivonen> (or on a bad WLAN setup)
  513. # [21:32] <annevk> actually, if html5.validator.nu is hijacked they're screwed anyway
  514. # [21:32] <hsivonen> yes
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  516. # [21:37] <annevk> prolly most practical is just to distribute a new script and give some sort of stable link where they can find updates for the script
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  525. # [22:05] <hsivonen> http://about.validator.nu/html5check.py now does redirects but the code is ugly
  526. # [22:07] <annevk> shouldn't it handle 303 and 307 too?
  527. # [22:07] <Hixie> if anyone wants to reply to http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000198.html (also at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/0014.html) then feel free to, i can't see what else i can say to explain why his approach isn't going to have the best accessibility impact.
  528. # [22:08] <kingryan> Hixie: I don't see what more could be said.
  529. # [22:08] <Hixie> jgraham: http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fgoogle.com%2F&algorithm=experimental&scope=1&headers=1&b_headings=1&strong_headings=1 crashes
  530. # [22:09] <Hixie> kingryan: yeah me either, and my replying is taking time away from editing the spec
  531. # [22:09] <kingryan> Hixie: yeah, it's time to give up
  532. # [22:10] <hsivonen> annevk: 303, no
  533. # [22:10] <annevk> Hixie, he does seem to claim that some alt= text (even really bad alt text) is better than none
  534. # [22:11] <annevk> I'm not sure what that's based on, but then I'm not sure what the current text in the HTML5 spec is based on either
  535. # [22:11] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-118-51.karoo.KCOM.COM) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  536. # [22:11] <hsivonen> annevk: added 307
  537. # [22:11] <Hixie> he seemes to be suggesting that duplicating content elsewhere on the page is good alt text, which seems clearly untrue to me
  538. # [22:11] <kingryan> Hixie: here's the part that gets me: "...but making it too easy to invoke the exception dilutes the rule. ". As if stronger rules are more likely to be followed, just because they're stronger, more stringent.
  539. # [22:11] <kingryan> its a very legalistic view of conformance
  540. # [22:11] <Hixie> kingryan: yeah, i didn't understand that either
  541. # [22:12] <hsivonen> kingryan: many people have a legalistic view of conformance
  542. # [22:12] <kingryan> to follow his analogy, some people just won't wear seatbelts, no matter how strong the laws
  543. # [22:12] <hober> I liked the part about free beer.
  544. # [22:12] <kingryan> hsivonen: I agree. Unfortunately that's counter productive.
  545. # [22:13] <Dashiva> I want free candy instead
  546. # [22:13] <Dashiva> Stop the beer monopoly on analogies
  547. # [22:13] <kingryan> I don't remember when, but I at one point, finally, came to realize that conformance is just like lint-checking.
  548. # [22:13] * annevk missed the free beer
  549. # [22:13] <kingryan> it's just a tool for building better tools
  550. # [22:15] <hsivonen> kingryan: validator.nu is two-point-ohey in a participatory way: it lets you load in your own rules (if they are describable as RNG or Schematron) and it lets you turn off any Java-based checker
  551. # [22:16] <kingryan> hsivonen: that's nice
  552. # [22:16] <kingryan> ironically, /me just finished porting html5lib's python validator to ruby
  553. # [22:16] <hsivonen> does html5lib now have a validator? what does it do?
  554. # [22:17] <kingryan> yes, markp wrote it: http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/python/src/html5lib/filters/validator.py
  555. # [22:17] <annevk> it checks content models
  556. # [22:17] <annevk> maybe more
  557. # [22:17] <kingryan> tags, attributes (required and forbidden), attribute formats
  558. # [22:18] <kingryan> by tags I mean allowed and forbidden elements
  559. # [22:18] <kingryan> enumerated attribute values
  560. # [22:19] <hsivonen> hmm. that looks more compact than the RNC schema
  561. # [22:20] <kingryan> lunchtime, bbiab
  562. # [22:21] <Hixie> at some point i'll need to write a validator
  563. # [22:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: why?
  564. # [22:24] <Hixie> i want to try an approach that doesn't use data tables
  565. # [22:25] <Hixie> and see if it is better or worse than the more common approach of data tables with exceptions
  566. # [22:25] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  567. # [22:32] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  568. # [22:36] <jgraham> Hixie: Thanks for the bug report. That's what I get for accidentally rolling untested changes into updates :)
  569. # [22:37] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  570. # [22:43] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.195)
  571. # [22:50] <jgraham> Hixie: Crash is fixed
  572. # [22:50] * jgraham needs to check if the <td><b> stuff actually works
  573. # [23:01] <zcorpan> anyone have jero (ph5p) 's email address?
  574. # [23:03] * annevk posted about the table inspector
  575. # [23:04] <annevk> http://jero.net/contact
  576. # [23:04] <annevk> oh, nm
  577. # [23:05] <zcorpan> or anyone know how to use ph5p?
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  580. # [23:06] <Dashiva> ph5p?
  581. # [23:06] <zcorpan> http://jero.net/lab/ph5p/
  582. # [23:06] * Joins: jonbarnett (n=jbarnett@71.159.54.54)
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  584. # [23:10] <kingryan> Hixie: i'm a validator n00b, what other approaches are there besides data tables?
  585. # [23:20] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-6b91e9da7ed031cf)
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  589. # [23:42] * Philip` tries reporting quite a few Opera canvas bugs, and apologises for any that are dupes
  590. # [23:43] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  591. # [23:45] <Dashiva> Philip`: Maybe you should run it through zcorpan or annevk?
  592. # [23:45] <Dashiva> I'm going to bed, so can't help right now :)
  593. # [23:45] <zcorpan> don't worry about reporting dups :)
  594. # [23:45] <zcorpan> better safe than sorry :)
  595. # [23:46] <Dashiva> Poor first-line QA, nobody thinks about their feelings
  596. # [23:47] * zcorpan does some of that
  597. # [23:47] <Philip`> I hope it doesn't matter that most of my "Describe in 3 steps or more how to reproduce this bug" only have two steps
  598. # [23:47] <zcorpan> no
  599. # [23:47] <Dashiva> That's pure filler
  600. # [23:48] <zcorpan> 1. Look at TC
  601. # [23:48] <zcorpan> 2. See the bug!!11
  602. # [23:48] <zcorpan> :)
  603. # [23:48] <Dashiva> I have at least one bug with description "Words fail me, see testcase"
  604. # [23:49] <Philip`> Bah, I only got consecutive bug numbers once :-(
  605. # [23:49] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  606. # [23:49] <zcorpan> Philip`: hmm?
  607. # [23:50] <Philip`> I got 282997 and 282998, but the next was 283001 and none of the subsequent ones were consecutive numbers
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  610. # [23:56] <zcorpan> aha
  611. # [23:57] <zcorpan> you're not fast enough ;)
  612. # Session Close: Fri Sep 07 00:00:00 2007

The end :)