/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-26 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 26 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@host86-139-126-38.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  4. # [00:01] <Philip`> Gmail really isn't very good at keeping track of unread message counts when a message has multiple labels
  5. # [00:03] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  6. # [00:06] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@68-248-62-130.ded.ameritech.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  7. # [00:10] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  8. # [00:11] <Hixie> gsnedders: feature freeze with the caveat that issues that had been raised before the feature freeze would still get resolved
  9. # [00:16] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-157-18-65.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  10. # [00:19] * Quits: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@host86-139-126-38.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) (Connection timed out)
  11. # [00:21] * Quits: dbloom (n=futurama@12-217-120-80.client.mchsi.com)
  12. # [00:24] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip235.unival.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  13. # [00:24] * tommorris wonders whether the lack of compatibility with the GRDDL specification counts as a raised issue
  14. # [00:25] * Joins: qwert666__ (n=qwert666@acbk15.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  15. # [00:25] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@adsl-76-203-72-98.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Connection timed out)
  16. # [00:31] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  17. # [00:32] * jgraham guesses phillips problem with gmail is less annoying than the random number that thunderbird occasionally displays over the dock icon on OSX
  18. # [00:32] <jgraham> s/phillips/Philip`'s/
  19. # [00:33] <jgraham> Presumably they are supposed to be unread message counts but random numbers might work just as well
  20. # [00:43] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@etr59.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Connection timed out)
  21. # [00:47] * Joins: dbloom (n=futurama@64.22.217.2)
  22. # [00:54] * Quits: dbloom (n=futurama@64.22.217.2) (Remote closed the connection)
  23. # [00:54] * Joins: dbloom (n=futurama@64.22.217.2)
  24. # [00:56] * om_afk is now known as othermaciej
  25. # [01:09] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  26. # [01:18] * Quits: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
  27. # [01:18] * Quits: qwert666__ (n=qwert666@acbk15.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  28. # [01:20] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  29. # [01:34] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  30. # [01:35] * Quits: dbloom (n=futurama@64.22.217.2)
  31. # [01:42] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-fd4b4cff51f72fd6) ("The computer fell asleep")
  32. # [01:57] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.49)
  33. # [01:59] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  34. # [02:01] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-32-184.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  35. # [02:04] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Nick collision from services.)
  36. # [02:04] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  37. # [02:07] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  38. # [02:10] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  39. # [02:16] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  40. # [02:16] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  41. # [02:27] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-29db4ec08ba2a82b) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  42. # [02:27] <dglazkov> hey, I have webforms2.org domain sitting still
  43. # [02:27] <dglazkov> anybody need it?
  44. # [02:33] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@68-240-53-151.area5.spcsdns.net)
  45. # [02:35] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@68-240-53-151.area5.spcsdns.net) (Client Quit)
  46. # [02:49] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@68.24.86.180)
  47. # [02:53] * Joins: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-5-224.twcny.res.rr.com)
  48. # [03:04] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@68.24.86.180)
  49. # [03:09] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  50. # [03:12] * Quits: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-5-224.twcny.res.rr.com)
  51. # [03:53] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-231.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  52. # [04:07] * Joins: Thezilch (n=fuz007@cpe-76-170-22-179.socal.res.rr.com)
  53. # [04:11] * Joins: Thezilch[FH] (i=fuz007@cpe-76-170-20-41.socal.res.rr.com)
  54. # [04:16] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  55. # [04:21] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  56. # [04:28] * Quits: Thezilch (n=fuz007@cpe-76-170-22-179.socal.res.rr.com) (Connection timed out)
  57. # [04:41] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  58. # [04:42] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Nick collision from services.)
  59. # [04:42] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  60. # [04:50] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  61. # [04:57] * Quits: ianloic (i=yakk@glub.dreamhostps.com) (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  62. # [04:58] * Joins: ianloic (i=yakk@glub.dreamhostps.com)
  63. # [05:00] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-231.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Excess Flood)
  64. # [05:00] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-231.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  65. # [05:13] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  66. # [05:14] * Joins: aroben__ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  67. # [05:19] * Joins: aroben____ (n=aroben@nat/apple/x-37c8cb6099fcc975)
  68. # [05:19] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Nick collision from services.)
  69. # [05:19] * aroben____ is now known as aroben
  70. # [05:20] * Quits: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Nick collision from services.)
  71. # [05:20] * Quits: aroben__ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Nick collision from services.)
  72. # [05:52] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  73. # [06:36] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  74. # [06:37] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  75. # [06:41] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  76. # [06:49] * Joins: roc (n=roc@247.93.233.220.exetel.com.au)
  77. # [06:53] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  78. # [06:56] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  79. # [06:57] * weinig is now known as weinig|zZz
  80. # [06:58] * Quits: weinig|zZz (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  81. # [07:07] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@247.93.233.220.exetel.com.au)
  82. # [07:07] * Quits: roc (n=roc@247.93.233.220.exetel.com.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  83. # [07:07] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Ex-Chat")
  84. # [07:30] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  85. # [07:34] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  86. # [07:37] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@247.93.233.220.exetel.com.au) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  87. # [07:43] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  88. # [07:54] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  89. # [08:14] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  90. # [08:16] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@adsl-63-199-241-42.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net)
  91. # [08:17] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@adsl-63-199-241-42.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  92. # [08:17] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@adsl-63-199-241-42.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net)
  93. # [08:18] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@adsl-63-199-241-42.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net)
  94. # [08:20] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@adsl-63-199-241-42.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net)
  95. # [08:28] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  96. # [08:30] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  97. # [08:31] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  98. # [08:38] <hsivonen> " <oedipus> zcorpan, xhtml2 and xforms have been artificially
  99. # [08:38] <hsivonen> suppressed by implementors
  100. # [08:38] <hsivonen> argh
  101. # [08:38] <hsivonen> slip of paste
  102. # [08:44] <virtuelv> still an interesting quote
  103. # [08:45] <annevk> implementors are evil
  104. # [08:45] <othermaciej> artificially suppressed!
  105. # [08:45] <othermaciej> because after all, every spec has an intrinsic right to be implemented
  106. # [08:48] <hsivonen> anyway, what I thought I had on the clipboard was something different from www-style
  107. # [08:48] <hsivonen> "The WHATWG seems to be more receptive to ideas than the other w3c
  108. # [08:48] <hsivonen> groups. I wish they had a CSS module or something."
  109. # [08:49] <othermaciej> maybe if you wish hard enough :-)
  110. # [08:53] <Hixie> i've been saying for some times that we should open a css branch
  111. # [08:55] <hsivonen> I found it interesting that some of the Apple CSS stuff got shipped on iPhone but not in desktop Safari
  112. # [08:59] <vlad_> anyone know if www-style allows posts from non-members?
  113. # [09:00] <vlad_> I'd like to reply in support of the apple CSS proposals being in-scope for the CSS WG, but fear for my inbox if I subscribe to www-style
  114. # [09:00] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  115. # [09:01] <annevk> vlad_, should be accepted
  116. # [09:01] <vlad_> sweet, thanks
  117. # [09:01] <othermaciej> vlad_: I subscribed at least temporarily
  118. # [09:02] <othermaciej> vlad_: and thanks for the support btw
  119. # [09:02] <vlad_> yeah, I guess I can just unsub later
  120. # [09:16] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  121. # [09:17] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  122. # [09:22] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  123. # [09:22] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  124. # [09:23] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  125. # [09:26] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  126. # [09:28] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  127. # [09:38] * Joins: zudex (n=chatzill@202-74-215-149.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  128. # [09:41] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  129. # [09:44] * Quits: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  130. # [09:53] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  131. # [09:53] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  132. # [09:59] <hsivonen> http://www.adobe.com/products/player_census/flashplayer/
  133. # [09:59] <hsivonen> can the SVG number be right? Firefox + Opera + Safari totalling under 10%?
  134. # [10:00] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  135. # [10:02] <virtuelv> hsivonen: it's possible to pull any number out of a random orifice if you work in marketing
  136. # [10:02] <virtuelv> http://www.adobe.com/products/player_census/methodology/ is quite telling
  137. # [10:03] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  138. # [10:03] <virtuelv> it's an opt-in survey
  139. # [10:03] <hsivonen> and tracking plug-in tech
  140. # [10:07] <annevk> they leave out HTML entirely...
  141. # [10:07] <annevk> hmm
  142. # [10:20] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  143. # [10:24] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-231.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  144. # [10:25] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  145. # [10:25] * Joins: roc (n=roc@203-158-42-104.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  146. # [10:34] * Joins: Camaban (n=adrianle@81.133.236.188)
  147. # [10:42] <othermaciej> hsivonen: there are some people on older versions of Safari, Opera or Firefox, but certainly not over half
  148. # [10:46] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  149. # [10:55] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  150. # [11:05] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  151. # [11:06] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  152. # [11:07] * Joins: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  153. # [11:08] * Joins: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  154. # [11:16] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  155. # [11:23] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-748d1cb6ba7e6ea3)
  156. # [11:24] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  157. # [11:28] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbk15.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  158. # [11:29] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  159. # [11:34] * Quits: roc (n=roc@203-158-42-104.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  160. # [11:46] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  161. # [11:47] <annevk> hmm, forgot to submit <form><p>...</form> as Acid3 test
  162. # [11:49] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-32-184.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  163. # [11:49] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  164. # [11:49] <othermaciej> annevk: who has a bug on that, and what is the bug?
  165. # [11:50] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  166. # [11:50] <BenMillard> annevk, the search box on Opera.com seems broken. A search for "chat" takes me here: http://www.opera.com/search/search.cgi?start=1&end=10&words=chat
  167. # [11:50] <annevk> Firefox ignores </form>
  168. # [11:55] <annevk> thanks BenMillard
  169. # [11:56] <jgraham> annevk: Oh that's quite bad.
  170. # [11:59] <jgraham> Out of interest, is it a known issue that Opera doesn't shrink table cells containing an image to the displayed width of the image but only to the pixel size?
  171. # [11:59] <jgraham> e.g. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ctable%20border%3D1%3E%0D%0A%3Ctd%3E%3Cimg%20height%3D40%20src%3Dimage%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Ftable%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3EThe%20table%20should%20be%20narrower%20than%20the%20full%20image%20width%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3Cimg%20src%3Dimage%3E
  172. # [12:00] * jgraham assumes this has been noticed before but doesn't know how to tell
  173. # [12:00] <annevk> i've no idea
  174. # [12:00] <annevk> I'd suggest you use https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/
  175. # [12:01] <jgraham> OK
  176. # [12:01] * jgraham is naturally disinclined from filing bugs without a way of checking for dupes
  177. # [12:07] <BenMillard> jgraham, I guess they check for dupes on your behalf?
  178. # [12:08] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2008JanMar/0083.html
  179. # [12:08] <jgraham> BenMillard: Sure, but I still don't like doing it
  180. # [12:09] <BenMillard> jgraham, that's understandable. I guess this approach works for them, though
  181. # [12:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: I guess my definition of clear is somewhat different from her's
  182. # [12:11] <annevk> it does work for us, though I agree it's not the best system for everyone
  183. # [12:13] <BenMillard> hsivonen, I'm not sure what is more interesting out of the content itself; the lack of punctuation; the errononeous punctuation; the lacking capitalisation; the irregular spacing of paragraphs; etc
  184. # [12:13] <BenMillard> especially bearing in mind the sensitivity to these things which text-to-speech adaptation tends to have
  185. # [12:14] <BenMillard> I suggest it was not a carefully thought out response
  186. # [12:16] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/19-webapi-minutes.html is public right?
  187. # [12:17] <BenMillard> annevk, that works for me
  188. # [12:17] <annevk> k, MS commits itself to implementing DOM Level 3 Events there
  189. # [12:18] <annevk> (and some more rambling on mousewheel which schepers apparently didn't tested as he told me he did...)
  190. # [12:35] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  191. # [12:48] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-45-39.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  192. # [13:06] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-32-184.karoo.KCOM.COM) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  193. # [13:08] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  194. # [13:11] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  195. # [13:12] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  196. # [13:28] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  197. # [13:28] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  198. # [13:29] * Quits: zudex (n=chatzill@202-74-215-149.ue.woosh.co.nz) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 3.0b4/2008030714]")
  199. # [13:53] * Joins: dbloom (n=futurama@12-217-120-80.client.mchsi.com)
  200. # [13:56] * Quits: Thezilch[FH] (i=fuz007@cpe-76-170-20-41.socal.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  201. # [14:04] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  202. # [14:05] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  203. # [14:21] * Joins: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  204. # [14:35] * Quits: dbloom (n=futurama@12-217-120-80.client.mchsi.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  205. # [14:35] * Joins: dbloom (n=futurama@12-217-120-80.client.mchsi.com)
  206. # [14:37] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@142.150.154.101)
  207. # [14:45] <shepazu> hsivonen: it's a plug-in survey, not a survey of technology deployment... they are looking only at ASV, probably, not Firefox + Opera + Safari+(IE+SVG plugin)
  208. # [14:46] <shepazu> annevk: I did test, it's possible my test wasn't comprehensive or test all the right things
  209. # [14:51] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  210. # [14:51] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  211. # [14:51] <hsivonen> shepazu: hence, the survey gives a bogus picture of the technology deployment landscape
  212. # [14:52] <shepazu> hsivonen: no, Adobe would never do that
  213. # [14:53] <shepazu> you need to adjust your reality to match their findings
  214. # [14:54] <shepazu> now, that's not to say that Flash isn't more widely deployed than SVG
  215. # [14:54] <shepazu> it is
  216. # [14:54] <shepazu> just not as skewed as they present
  217. # [14:54] <shepazu> on desktops anyway
  218. # [14:54] <hsivonen> It'll be interesting to see what iPhone does to SVG vs. Flash deployment scenarios
  219. # [14:55] <shepazu> and if you bring mobiles onto the scene, SVG destroys FlashLite... on the order of 4 to 1, iirc
  220. # [14:55] <shepazu> iPhone numbers are tiny.... but influential
  221. # [14:55] <hsivonen> FlashLite is pointless (but so is walled-garden SVG)
  222. # [14:56] <hsivonen> I have no idea if my phone has some kind of SVG
  223. # [14:56] <hsivonen> it has FlashLite, but it is useless for browsing the Web
  224. # [14:56] <shepazu> I know mine doesn't... but it's 6 years old
  225. # [14:56] <hsivonen> I know WebKit on my phone doesn't have the SVG bits
  226. # [14:56] <hsivonen> Opera neither
  227. # [14:57] <shepazu> my phone was marketed to homo neanderalis
  228. # [15:02] * Joins: Tayuke (n=chatzill@C-59-100-102-243.bri.connect.net.au)
  229. # [15:03] <Tayuke> anyone know where I can find a website with website standards...
  230. # [15:03] <Tayuke> I can't come up with anything on Google..
  231. # [15:07] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  232. # [15:07] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  233. # [15:09] * Quits: Tayuke (n=chatzill@C-59-100-102-243.bri.connect.net.au) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.13/2008031114]")
  234. # [15:14] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-b9fd20c673c83d4d)
  235. # [15:20] * Quits: dbloom (n=futurama@12-217-120-80.client.mchsi.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  236. # [15:23] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-748d1cb6ba7e6ea3) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  237. # [15:25] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip235.unival.com)
  238. # [15:33] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-30167e45c36f6457)
  239. # [15:34] <Lachy> heh, the xhtml2 wg are discussing whether or not DTDs and DOCTYPEs are necessary in their telcon.
  240. # [15:36] <Lachy> ... they still don't get it.
  241. # [15:39] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-38e45a1f63c60510)
  242. # [15:39] <shepazu> Lachy: what do you mean?
  243. # [15:40] <shepazu> are you saying there aren't people and toolchains that rely on DTDs and DOCTYPEs, especially for authoring?
  244. # [15:44] <itpastorn> Opera devs around? I found a small bug: http://keryx.se/dev/acid3/red-green-dot.pdf and http://keryx.se/dev/acid3/bg-in-negative-margin.html
  245. # [15:46] <annevk> interesting
  246. # [15:46] <annevk> itpastorn, if you could file it that would be much appreciated https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/
  247. # [15:46] <itpastorn> Should I file it?
  248. # [15:46] <annevk> :)
  249. # [15:47] <itpastorn> You are too fast for me!
  250. # [15:47] <annevk> btw, Opera post-Kestrel builds hit 98/100 on Acid3
  251. # [15:47] <itpastorn> Source? (You know, for WP....)
  252. # [15:48] <annevk> my blog soonish... though I'm missing the screen shot at this poin
  253. # [15:48] <itpastorn> maybe this log...
  254. # [15:49] <itpastorn> OK, I have your blog in my feed aggregator (Thanks for all the stuff you've taught me BTW)
  255. # [15:50] <itpastorn> Any rendering issues? Do you download the AcidAhemTest font?
  256. # [15:50] <itpastorn> And my I ask what two tests that you still are missing?
  257. # [15:51] <itpastorn> my=may
  258. # [15:52] <annevk> we support @font-face
  259. # [15:55] <hsivonen> annevk: post-Kestrel? cross-platform?
  260. # [15:56] <itpastorn> Bug filed: 319878
  261. # [15:57] <annevk> hsivonen, yes, dunno
  262. # [16:01] <Lachy> shepazu, their discussion was about whether or not their specs should require conforming documents to have doctypes and they wrongly claimed that validation would require a DTD
  263. # [16:02] <annevk> itpastorn, zcorpan tells me 'cursor' and data:,%20 are still failing
  264. # [16:02] <shepazu> maybe some of their target toolchains do require that, Lachy
  265. # [16:03] <Lachy> I didn't see any mention of specific tools in their discussion.
  266. # [16:03] <Lachy> but check the logs for yourself. http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20080326
  267. # [16:04] <shepazu> why would they need to mention specific tools if it's understood? don't think you know everything that was said or understood because you read the logs, scribes are notoriously lax
  268. # [16:05] <Lachy> shepazu, I realise it's difficult to follow from the logs
  269. # [16:06] <Lachy> also, I never claimed to know everything
  270. # [16:06] <shepazu> your comment just seemed rather unfair and uncharitable
  271. # [16:07] <itpastorn> annevk: "cursor" and "data:,%20" - You are going to make me read the code again! Let's see. Test 47 and... 97?
  272. # [16:07] <Lachy> but, my interpretation of these logs seems fairly consistent with the results of past discussions.
  273. # [16:08] <annevk> itpastorn, yup
  274. # [16:09] <shepazu> Lachy, that's your interpretation, and I seriously doubt you're giving them the benefit of the doubt, even given their experiences
  275. # [16:09] <hsivonen> shepazu: folks from the XHTML2 WG have made some pretty wild assumptions of the need of DTDs in the past
  276. # [16:09] <hsivonen> assumtions that the XML community in general no longer shares
  277. # [16:12] <shepazu> and they are discussing removing that requirement... what's the problem?
  278. # [16:14] <eseidel> annevk: congrats :)
  279. # [16:15] <shepazu> just seems to me that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't, in your book...
  280. # [16:16] <hsivonen> shepazu: I was commenting on your assumptions about them considering tools. I don't make statements about damnedness.
  281. # [16:16] <Lachy> shepazu, it's good that they were discussing removing it. My issue is that some were arguing they should be kept
  282. # [16:17] <shepazu> hsivonen: I was replying to Lachy, not you
  283. # [16:17] <hsivonen> shepazu: ah. ok
  284. # [16:18] <shepazu> he'd made a derogatory statement about their discussion, calling them clueless, and I thought that was uncalled-for
  285. # [16:18] <Lachy> I never called them clueless
  286. # [16:19] <Lachy> (at least not today)
  287. # [16:19] <shepazu> but I guess this isn't my fight, I just wish there could be more positive discussion and less tension and infighting... we are all fighting against proprietary formats, after all
  288. # [16:19] <shepazu> "they still don't get it" reads to me as pretty much the same, Lachy
  289. # [16:20] * Philip` isn't fighting against proprietary formats
  290. # [16:20] <shepazu> ok, all of us except Philip` ;)
  291. # [16:21] <shepazu> ok, well... me. :D
  292. # [16:21] <Philip`> I wouldn't mind a proprietary format that worked better for me than any alternatives :-)
  293. # [16:21] <Lachy> shepazu, no, it just means they fail to understand some of the issues related to DTDs and DOCTYPEs
  294. # [16:21] <eseidel> hum... sadly the latest opera snapshot won't even load google for me :(
  295. # [16:21] * Lachy leaves
  296. # [16:21] <shepazu> ok, Lachy
  297. # [16:22] <shepazu> and by "they" I guess you didn't mean the group as a whole, just those select individuals
  298. # [16:22] <shepazu> glad to know you aren't being narrowminded
  299. # [16:23] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  300. # [16:23] <annevk> could you please stay friendly on this channel shepazu?
  301. # [16:24] <shepazu> sure, I'm happy to stay as friendly as everyone else, annevk
  302. # [16:24] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  303. # [16:24] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Client Quit)
  304. # [16:26] <shepazu> sorry if you feel that defending people who aren't here to defend themselves is unfriendly
  305. # [16:28] * Quits: Camaban (n=adrianle@81.133.236.188) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  306. # [16:32] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  307. # [16:34] <annevk> I think that "glad to know you aren't being narrowminded" and your last remark are rather unfriendly
  308. # [16:35] <shepazu> this channel seems pretty open to mockery, annevk
  309. # [16:35] <shepazu> am I incorrect in that assessment?
  310. # [16:36] <itpastorn> annevk: WP updated... Now I must go back to work. Thanks for the tip.
  311. # [16:36] <shepazu> are you asking me to match a different standard of behavior?
  312. # [16:38] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  313. # [16:38] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  314. # [16:39] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  315. # [16:40] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  316. # [16:41] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  317. # [16:46] * Joins: jgraham_mibbit (i=836f44b5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cec5ba2a0e197680)
  318. # [16:49] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  319. # [16:50] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net)
  320. # [16:54] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  321. # [16:54] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  322. # [16:55] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Client Quit)
  323. # [16:58] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-176.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  324. # [16:59] <gsnedders> silly power cuts.
  325. # [17:02] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  326. # [17:03] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  327. # [17:05] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  328. # [17:07] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net)
  329. # [17:08] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  330. # [17:09] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net)
  331. # [17:10] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@adsl-63-199-241-42.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  332. # [17:10] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  333. # [17:14] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  334. # [17:17] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.49)
  335. # [17:24] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@dsl093-034-068.snd1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  336. # [17:40] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  337. # [17:40] <hsivonen> HTML 5 should probably say how the native semantics map to MSAA/IAccessible2/ATK/UX
  338. # [17:41] <annevk2> that'd be part of the rendering section
  339. # [17:42] * annevk2 is now known as annevk
  340. # [17:42] <annevk> BenMillard, thanks, search is fixed
  341. # [17:45] <jgraham_mibbit> hsivonen: Alternatively that could go in a seperate, normative document
  342. # [17:46] <jgraham_mibbit> (dunno if that has significant advantages or not)
  343. # [17:46] <hsivonen> jgraham_mibbit: yeah, but given the ARIA situation, the features of HTML5 that are supposed to have accessibility benefits should be documented to have them with processing reqs
  344. # [17:46] <annevk> jgraham_mibbit, if someone is willing to edit :p
  345. # [17:48] <hsivonen> jgraham_mibbit: btw, it isn't just aria-level that doesn't have processing reqs. *none* of the states and properties come with processing reqs
  346. # [17:48] <BenMillard> annevk, yay :)
  347. # [17:49] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@host86-145-190-77.range86-145.btcentralplus.com)
  348. # [17:49] <BenMillard> hsivonen, is this of any use: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_UA_Best_Practices
  349. # [17:49] * annevk normally uses "g site:opera.com bar"
  350. # [17:50] <hsivonen> BenMillard: that's the kind of stuff that I'd like to see in W3C docs
  351. # [17:50] <annevk> BenMillard, that's for ARIA, not HTML5
  352. # [17:50] <jgraham_mibbit> hsivonen: Yeah, I had kind of noticed that aria is processing-requirment-deficient
  353. # [17:50] <hsivonen> BenMillard: so yes, that doc is useful, but by not having it in the ARIA spec, de facto normativeness is moved from the W3C doc to the Mozilla wiki.
  354. # [17:50] <BenMillard> hsivonen, I see
  355. # [17:51] <BenMillard> Aaron told me he wrote it about a week ago, and that it's a draft, so maybe there are plans to fold it in at some point
  356. # [17:53] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-176.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) (Nick collision from services.)
  357. # [17:54] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  358. # [17:57] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  359. # [17:57] * Quits: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  360. # [17:57] <zcorpan> i'll still have to review that doc
  361. # [17:58] <zcorpan> making it a w3c doc has been discussed
  362. # [17:58] <othermaciej> I think the proposal was to make it a non-normative w3c doc which is possibly still a wiki
  363. # [17:59] <hsivonen> even if the API-specific stuff is better on a wiki, the spec still could have processing requirements without naming the concrete API identifiers
  364. # [17:59] <zcorpan> making it a rec-track document at this point is expected to slow down development of the doc
  365. # [17:59] <zcorpan> it can still become a rec-track document later on
  366. # [18:00] <hsivonen> I don't see the benefit of ARIA itself becoming a REC if as a REC it can't serve as a basis for interoperable implementations
  367. # [18:00] <zcorpan> me neither
  368. # [18:00] <annevk> From what I know the idea is to gather implementor feedback first until it's sort of done and then rubberstamp it.
  369. # [18:00] <hsivonen> that is, I think shipping interoperable software is more interesting that marking a spec done
  370. # [18:01] <annevk> re above ^^
  371. # [18:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: agree
  372. # [18:06] <hsivonen> anyway, I think I'm going to take a second attempt at integrating ARIA into HTML5 on the document conformance level
  373. # [18:06] <hsivonen> since it now appears that aria-owns doesn't really arbitrarily reparent stuff
  374. # [18:11] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  375. # [18:21] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  376. # [18:22] <hsivonen> hmm. ARIA has script-managed alternatives for HTML5 contextmenu, draggable and irrelevent
  377. # [18:25] * Philip` finds a bug in HTML5
  378. # [18:25] <Philip`> People misspell 'irrelevant'
  379. # [18:26] <Philip`> Something like "inactive" would be less likely to go wrong
  380. # [18:26] <annevk> yeah, it should be renamed
  381. # [18:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: can irrelevent be misspelled by know knowing the spelling? or just typoing?
  382. # [18:27] <hsivonen> hah. I typoed it just there
  383. # [18:28] <hsivonen> anyway, it seems about as typoable as any word of that length
  384. # [18:29] <annevk> contextmenu is way easier
  385. # [18:29] <annevk> no confusing over double r/l or single, no e/a issue at the end
  386. # [18:29] <annevk> confusion, even
  387. # [18:29] <hsivonen> we might as well drop the semantic fig leaf and call it 'hidden'
  388. # [18:29] <annevk> Hixie claims it's not equivalent
  389. # [18:32] <Philip`> Why should we listen to him?
  390. # [18:32] <BenMillard> fwiw, irrelevant is a difficult word, even for an Englishman, for precisely the reasons Anne gives
  391. # [18:36] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  392. # [18:36] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  393. # [18:37] <BenMillard> Philip` and hsivonen, both inactive and hidden are easier than irrelevant for me
  394. # [18:39] <webben> latent maybe?
  395. # [18:39] <virtuelv> not that I think anyone'll miss it, but, http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/03/acid3-opera-98
  396. # [18:40] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-322d4aed50b3d339)
  397. # [18:41] <BenMillard> irrelevant seems to be about revealing new parts of a page which weren't relevant when the user originally visited the page
  398. # [18:42] <BenMillard> putting such things on a different page seems like a better idea to me
  399. # [18:43] <zcorpan_> in practice, having a different page is too cumbersome and authors instead just use display:none
  400. # [18:44] <Philip`> Disabling stylesheets on gmail.com was suggested as a demonstration where critical semantics of the page are only encoded in its CSS
  401. # [18:45] * Joins: Camaban_ (n=adrianle@81.133.236.188)
  402. # [18:46] <Philip`> (and it seems it would be infeasible to split it into multiple pages, because that would destroy the performance)
  403. # [18:46] <Philip`> (hence it's good to have a way to encode the display:none semantics in HTML instead)
  404. # [18:46] <BenMillard> style="display:none;"
  405. # [18:48] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La89a.l.pppool.de)
  406. # [18:48] <Camaban_> annevk: what's meant by 'post-Kestrel'? is it just internal build that isn't public yet?
  407. # [18:48] <Philip`> That doesn't help the hypothetical UAs that want to render sites like Gmail without having to implement CSS
  408. # [18:48] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  409. # [18:48] * Philip` isn't sure it's actually solving a real problem
  410. # [18:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: in the past X-Smiles and Prince have supported style='' without supporting the cascade
  411. # [18:50] <hsivonen> IIRC Prince for SVG and X-Smiles for XForms
  412. # [18:50] <annevk> Camaban_, it means it won't be part of the Kestrel release
  413. # [18:50] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  414. # [18:51] * Quits: jgraham_mibbit (i=836f44b5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cec5ba2a0e197680) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
  415. # [18:52] <zcorpan_> i wonder if it would be feasable to just make style='display:none' mean irrelevant=''
  416. # [18:52] <BenMillard> irrelevant has some strange restrictions, such as not using it for tabbed views
  417. # [18:52] <Camaban_> annevk: ah, so this is part of dev for 10? or would we see it between 9.5 and 10?
  418. # [18:53] <Philip`> BenMillard: It's (arguably) not strange - the other tabs are still relevant to the current application state, they're just not visible in the current view
  419. # [18:54] <BenMillard> Philip`, authors are not going to care about such distinctions
  420. # [18:55] <BenMillard> if the user is viewing the tab about e.g. product specification, the other tabs are currently irrelevant to them
  421. # [18:55] <annevk> Camaban_, we'll see
  422. # [18:55] * Quits: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  423. # [18:55] <annevk> Camaban_, it's likely there'll be a public build demonstrating it
  424. # [18:56] <Philip`> BenMillard: It does seem like a fairly subtle issue for authors to understand
  425. # [18:57] <Philip`> and I don't think practical experience of HTML gives much hope of authors getting subtleness right
  426. # [18:57] <Camaban_> annevk: ok, thanks, sorry, I realise answering those kinds of questions can lead to problems. I'd forgotten that Kestrel was just 9.5, that's fine
  427. # [18:57] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  428. # [18:58] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.49) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  429. # [18:58] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.49)
  430. # [19:00] <BenMillard> zcorpan, display:none by any means (not just style) could be given the semantics irrelevant has. some widgets change a class attribute rather than set a style attribute. hiding navigation in print preview is usually done by an external stylesheet.
  431. # [19:01] <BenMillard> (print preview is just a UA using media="print" so I think that should work)
  432. # [19:02] * Parts: Camaban_ (n=adrianle@81.133.236.188)
  433. # [19:03] * Joins: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  434. # [19:03] <BenMillard> in effect, I think irrelevant should be dropped. if something is hidden, it is obviously not relevant to the user at that time
  435. # [19:05] <zcorpan_> but css is (supposed to be) optional
  436. # [19:05] <annevk> Yet, lets not try to change fundamental assumptions about CSS
  437. # [19:05] <annevk> s/Yet/Yes/
  438. # [19:07] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@host86-137-238-103.range86-137.btcentralplus.com)
  439. # [19:07] <BenMillard> if those assumptions don't match what authors do, maybe they should change
  440. # [19:08] <annevk> maybe
  441. # [19:08] <annevk> I rather not
  442. # [19:09] <zcorpan_> ATs can't ignore css in order to be usable, i think
  443. # [19:10] <BenMillard> browsing the web visually without CSS is not really usable, either
  444. # [19:10] <BenMillard> unless you only browse our blogs :)
  445. # [19:11] <zcorpan_> i browse a lot of the web without css
  446. # [19:11] <zcorpan_> via feeds
  447. # [19:11] <hsivonen> optional technologies become de facto required over time
  448. # [19:13] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  449. # [19:18] <Philip`> zcorpan_: irrelevant is only useful for dynamic scripted applications, and you don't get those in feeds
  450. # [19:19] <zcorpan_> Philip`: true
  451. # [19:19] <zcorpan_> moreover, i get style='' applied in feeds
  452. # [19:21] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@dsl093-034-068.snd1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  453. # [19:21] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@pool-70-107-89-132.ny325.east.verizon.net)
  454. # [19:22] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.49) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  455. # [19:22] * Joins: gsnedders__ (n=gsnedder@host217-44-36-180.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  456. # [19:22] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-145-190-77.range86-145.btcentralplus.com) (Nick collision from services.)
  457. # [19:22] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.49)
  458. # [19:24] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  459. # [19:25] * gsnedders__ is now known as gsnedders
  460. # [19:32] <hsivonen> WIP: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/aria-html5-bis/
  461. # [19:35] * Quits: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@host86-137-238-103.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) (Success)
  462. # [19:41] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.49) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  463. # [19:42] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  464. # [19:42] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.49)
  465. # [19:46] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  466. # [19:47] <webben> the point is (perhaps) less whether UAs should or shouldn't implement CSS, but whether it should be necessary to use publisher CSS to read a page. There are major disadvantages to forcing publisher CSS on users (because it's very hard to design a skin everyone can use, and very few people trye).
  467. # [19:47] <webben> *try
  468. # [19:47] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@pool-70-107-89-132.ny325.east.verizon.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  469. # [19:47] <webben> and in practice, once you're allowed users to set their own skin, presentation has become separated from content and it doesn't really make much sense to require UA support of CSS.
  470. # [19:48] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@70.107.89.132)
  471. # [19:48] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@70.107.89.132) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  472. # [19:49] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@pool-70-107-89-132.ny325.east.verizon.net)
  473. # [19:49] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@pool-70-107-89-132.ny325.east.verizon.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  474. # [19:49] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@pool-70-107-89-132.ny325.east.verizon.net)
  475. # [19:54] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  476. # [19:58] <BenMillard> webben, good point
  477. # [20:00] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.49) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  478. # [20:00] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.49)
  479. # [20:01] * Quits: aroben|lunch (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  480. # [20:05] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-237aa7cbf6b742a1)
  481. # [20:11] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  482. # [20:12] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  483. # [20:14] <annevk> small update: http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/03/26/opera-and-the-acid3-test
  484. # [20:14] <annevk> 100/100
  485. # [20:14] <annevk> there's a small rendering glitch left
  486. # [20:15] <hober> wow, awesome
  487. # [20:15] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@pool-70-107-89-132.ny325.east.verizon.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  488. # [20:16] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net)
  489. # [20:16] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net)
  490. # [20:16] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@pool-70-107-89-132.ny325.east.verizon.net)
  491. # [20:17] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  492. # [20:18] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@static-71-249-177-143.nycmny.east.verizon.net)
  493. # [20:20] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.49) (Connection timed out)
  494. # [20:22] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  495. # [20:24] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) (Client Quit)
  496. # [20:30] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@dsl093-034-068.snd1.dsl.speakeasy.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  497. # [20:33] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@pool-70-107-89-132.ny325.east.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  498. # [20:35] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  499. # [20:50] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  500. # [20:50] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  501. # [20:56] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  502. # [21:02] <itpastorn> annevk: ping
  503. # [21:03] * Parts: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-38e45a1f63c60510)
  504. # [21:07] * Joins: csarven- (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  505. # [21:08] <annevk> yo
  506. # [21:08] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.109.49)
  507. # [21:08] <itpastorn> Do you think I could get Tim A's screenshot for WP?
  508. # [21:09] <annevk> I'd think so
  509. # [21:10] <itpastorn> Is he reachable?
  510. # [21:10] <annevk> @opera.com
  511. # [21:10] <itpastorn> firstname.lastname@
  512. # [21:11] <virtuelv> itpastorn: the acid3 screenshot?
  513. # [21:11] <itpastorn> Yes
  514. # [21:11] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  515. # [21:12] <virtuelv> I doubt anyone will shoot you if you grab the full-screen version off of somewhere
  516. # [21:12] <virtuelv> I blogged it too
  517. # [21:12] <virtuelv> http://virtuelvis.com/download/2008/03/acid3/acid3_100.png
  518. # [21:12] <hasather> congrats all Opera people :)
  519. # [21:13] <itpastorn> WP has a strict liicense policy. If not explicitly CC or similar it will be removed.
  520. # [21:13] <virtuelv> bwah
  521. # [21:14] <itpastorn> is the last small rendering glitch visible?
  522. # [21:14] * Quits: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  523. # [21:14] <annevk> itpastorn, no, firstname
  524. # [21:14] * csarven- is now known as csa
  525. # [21:14] * csa is now known as csarven
  526. # [21:15] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  527. # [21:15] <Hixie> virtuelv: that is not a perfect pass, though it is a good step forward
  528. # [21:15] <annevk> we realize
  529. # [21:16] <Hixie> yeah, not sure virtuelv does though :-)
  530. # [21:16] <virtuelv> Hixie: I do realise
  531. # [21:16] <virtuelv> unfortunately, other people don't neccesarily realise that
  532. # [21:17] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-30167e45c36f6457)
  533. # [21:17] <virtuelv> (see the reddit headline, for instance)
  534. # [21:17] <itpastorn> virtualelv: Could you write a note on your blog that the image is CC?
  535. # [21:18] <itpastorn> In a comment perhaps. Derivative works must be allowed.
  536. # [21:18] <hsivonen> itpastorn: doesn't the English wikipedia allow graphical quotations as fair use? (IANAL, TINLA)
  537. # [21:19] <virtuelv> itpastorn: the screenshot is the exact same as Tim's
  538. # [21:19] <virtuelv> these are from some blessed developer's machine
  539. # [21:19] <itpastorn> better safe than sorry. I've gotten a load of grey hairs over the Acid3 article already
  540. # [21:22] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-237aa7cbf6b742a1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  541. # [21:23] <virtuelv> itpastorn: I believe Tim Altman's screenshot is already under a CC license
  542. # [21:23] <virtuelv> see footer on http://weblog.timaltman.com/
  543. # [21:23] <virtuelv> and it's actually already on Wikipedia
  544. # [21:24] * Joins: aroben|lunch (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  545. # [21:24] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  546. # [21:24] <itpastorn> Wrong one. Derivative must be allowed.
  547. # [21:25] <Hixie> really?
  548. # [21:25] <Hixie> that's surprising
  549. # [21:25] <Hixie> i approve, but i didn't realise wikipedia required that
  550. # [21:26] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  551. # [21:26] <itpastorn> Yeah, they do. I've been burned once because the W3C license was not allowed.
  552. # [21:26] <virtuelv> itpastorn: [Citation needed]
  553. # [21:27] <itpastorn> Hold on a second...
  554. # [21:28] <itpastorn> here is one of mine with license: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Osi-vz-ip-model.svg
  555. # [21:28] <itpastorn> Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike 3.0 Unported
  556. # [21:29] <itpastorn> "Share alike" is not required
  557. # [21:30] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@static-71-249-177-143.nycmny.east.verizon.net)
  558. # [21:30] <annevk> pff, would me saying here that it's under that license be enough?
  559. # [21:31] <itpastorn> Yeah, I suppose so
  560. # [21:32] <Philip`> What if I say here that it's copyrighted to me and nobody may use it for anything?
  561. # [21:32] <itpastorn> Then it's a matter of authority I guess...
  562. # [21:33] * Philip` declares that he is authoritative
  563. # [21:35] * hsivonen thought Hixie was the author of the visual appearance of the successful rendering
  564. # [21:35] <hsivonen> (IANAL, TINLA again)
  565. # [21:35] <Hixie> i honestly think that even talking about copyrighting anything relating to acid3 is bogus
  566. # [21:36] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  567. # [21:36] <itpastorn> I can't find the TINLA page
  568. # [21:36] <Hixie> since it's all about interoperability, which is fair use, etc
  569. # [21:37] <itpastorn> I'll go for the fair use argument
  570. # [21:38] <hsivonen> itpastorn: TINLA page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fair_Use
  571. # [21:40] <annevk> I asked if someone could put a share-alike notice on the my.opera.com blog post
  572. # [21:40] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La89a.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  573. # [21:40] <annevk> Not sure when that'll happen given the local time in Europe
  574. # [21:40] <annevk> BTW: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc351024(VS.85).aspx
  575. # [21:41] * Philip` will make his own browser that rips off WinGogi's UI and sell it for lots of money, once it is share-alike
  576. # [21:42] * Joins: epeus (n=KevinMar@72.14.224.1)
  577. # [21:43] <itpastorn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fair_Use#Images point 6 applies to screenshots someone has made hi-/herself AFAIK
  578. # [21:43] * Joins: mitsuhiko (n=nmitsuhi@ubuntu/member/mitsuhiko)
  579. # [21:44] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@142.150.154.101)
  580. # [21:44] <itpastorn> Local time in Europe is 21.40 and it is halftime between Sweden and Brazil (0-0)
  581. # [21:45] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Connection timed out)
  582. # [21:45] <Philip`> Depends which part of Europe you're in :-)
  583. # [21:48] <itpastorn> Opera folks? Suppose most of them would be in Norway... Same TZ as Sweden! It's those Fins that are a bit ahead (in Scandinavia)
  584. # [21:48] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  585. # [21:49] <annevk> and the British that are behind...
  586. # [21:50] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  587. # [21:50] <itpastorn> When I look at the images - where is the glitch?
  588. # [21:52] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  589. # [21:52] <annevk> after the first comma we need a space
  590. # [21:53] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  591. # [21:53] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@dsl093-034-068.snd1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  592. # [21:53] <itpastorn> Is that not *my* bug? ...
  593. # [21:54] <annevk> it is
  594. # [21:54] <annevk> well, yours was a duplicate
  595. # [21:54] <annevk> as it turned out
  596. # [21:55] <itpastorn> But I did find it on my own. And you have not got a public bug database...
  597. # [21:55] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  598. # [21:56] <annevk> we were happy with the report :)
  599. # [21:57] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-322d4aed50b3d339) ("a")
  600. # [21:59] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@17.255.105.195)
  601. # [22:01] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.84.250.9)
  602. # [22:02] <itpastorn> BTW, someone has uploaded Tims image now. It wasn't me...
  603. # [22:04] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.109.49) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  604. # [22:04] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.49)
  605. # [22:07] <Hixie> i have blogged updates to acid3
  606. # [22:07] <Hixie> ln.hixie.ch
  607. # [22:12] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  608. # [22:16] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  609. # [22:16] <virtuelv> Hixie: why am I only seeing Osama pictures from your automated flickr selection?
  610. # [22:16] <Hixie> ask flickr and yahoo
  611. # [22:18] * Joins: a-ja (n=chatzill@adsl-70-237-201-197.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net)
  612. # [22:21] <itpastorn> www.annevankesteren.nl Connection Interrupted The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading.
  613. # [22:22] * annevk blames dreamhost
  614. # [22:22] <a-ja> annevk: acid3 congrats
  615. # [22:23] <tomg> yes
  616. # [22:23] <tomg> acid3 love
  617. # [22:24] <a-ja> annevk: /.'ed?
  618. # [22:24] <annevk> don't think so
  619. # [22:24] * Joins: Junyor (n=roynuj@pool-71-179-9-153.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  620. # [22:24] <annevk> that typically doesn't make it go down either
  621. # [22:24] <Junyor> itpastorn: you around?
  622. # [22:25] <itpastorn> Yep
  623. # [22:25] <Junyor> <- Tim Altman
  624. # [22:25] <Hixie> annevk: i replied to the xdr thing, i hope you can make use of my comments to once and for al put an end to this xdr nonsense
  625. # [22:25] <itpastorn> So I guessed
  626. # [22:25] <Junyor> what would be the appropriate license for the Opera Acid3 screenshot?
  627. # [22:25] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  628. # [22:26] <itpastorn> Someone has taken the law into his own hands and uploaded the image already
  629. # [22:26] <annevk> Hixie, next week or the week after I'll make the final edits to integrate the header proposal and declare it "done"
  630. # [22:26] * Joins: qwert666__ (n=qwert666@acbg239.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  631. # [22:26] <annevk> Hixie, thanks btw
  632. # [22:26] <Hixie> np
  633. # [22:26] <itpastorn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Operacid3.jpeg
  634. # [22:26] <Hixie> i think we need to move forward on xxx and get it to LC/CR asap
  635. # [22:26] <Hixie> to take the wind out of xdr's sails
  636. # [22:27] <annevk> yes
  637. # [22:27] <Junyor> itpastorn: I noticed. But I can make the full-size available under a CC license. Unfortunately, I'm not very familiar with the licenses, so I'm not sure what is appropriate
  638. # [22:27] <Hixie> cool
  639. # [22:27] <Hixie> ok, gotta go
  640. # [22:27] <Hixie> bbl
  641. # [22:27] <Dashiva> Did you get slashdotted, annevk?
  642. # [22:27] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-130.range81-156.btcentralplus.com)
  643. # [22:27] <itpastorn> Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License.
  644. # [22:28] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-36-180.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) (Nick collision from services.)
  645. # [22:28] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  646. # [22:28] * Quits: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  647. # [22:29] <annevk> Dashiva, I don't think so, it's just dreamhost
  648. # [22:29] <annevk> maybe I should register annevankesterenstatus.nl and host it somewhere else :p
  649. # [22:29] <itpastorn> Hixie gone? Sub pixels as in http://ejohn.org/blog/sub-pixel-problems-in-css/ ???
  650. # [22:29] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  651. # [22:30] <annevk> yes
  652. # [22:31] <itpastorn> I hope the FFox way will be spec'd
  653. # [22:32] <gsnedders> itpastorn: which FF way?
  654. # [22:32] <Junyor> itpastorn: so, something like "This screenshot (and the screenshot it links to) are copyright Opera Software ASA and released under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License" would be accurate?
  655. # [22:32] <itpastorn> gsnedders: Round some up and some down
  656. # [22:32] <itpastorn> Junyor: yes
  657. # [22:32] <gsnedders> itpastorn: at quick glance, FF 2 and 3 are quite different
  658. # [22:33] <Junyor> itpastorn: done
  659. # [22:33] <Junyor> http://weblog.timaltman.com/archive/2008/03/26/the-acid3-test
  660. # [22:34] <itpastorn> Thanks. I'll upload it to WP commons.
  661. # [22:34] <Junyor> yw
  662. # [22:35] <itpastorn> FFox 3 seems most natural to me.
  663. # [22:35] * gsnedders thinks we need to start work on Acid4 now
  664. # [22:35] <annevk> /. are idiots: "Update: 03/26 21:21 GMT by Z : Safari is now at 100%, apparently, with Safari close behind at 98%."
  665. # [22:36] <gsnedders> annevk: what do you really expect of /. editors, though?
  666. # [22:36] <itpastorn> ./ idiots - no way!
  667. # [22:36] <gsnedders> they're good at living up to their reputation
  668. # [22:37] <tomg> haha
  669. # [22:37] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  670. # [22:38] * Parts: Junyor (n=roynuj@pool-71-179-9-153.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  671. # [22:43] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbk15.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Connection timed out)
  672. # [22:44] * Joins: epeus (n=KevinMar@72.14.224.1)
  673. # [22:45] <virtuelv> annevk: have you tried ssh-ing in to your server and looked at the load?
  674. # [22:45] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@72.14.224.1) (Nick collision from services.)
  675. # [22:45] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  676. # [22:46] <annevk> no
  677. # [22:47] <annevk> I don't know how that works :)
  678. # [22:47] <itpastorn> Out of battery - gotta go! (Brazil won -sigh!)
  679. # [22:48] * Joins: Junyor (n=roynuj@pool-71-179-9-153.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  680. # [22:49] <Junyor> itpastorn: regarding the Acid3 Wikipedia article, it now says the reference screenshot is the only possible correct rendering of the test, but that's not correct
  681. # [22:50] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  682. # [22:51] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-d49a047da23c66f0)
  683. # [22:52] <hsivonen> are subpixel text rendering differences allowed or is there more permitted variability?
  684. # [22:52] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  685. # [22:53] <andersca> Hixie: I wonder if the cache would work well with multipart resources
  686. # [22:54] * Parts: Junyor (n=roynuj@pool-71-179-9-153.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  687. # [22:56] <Pavlov_> hsivonen: the reference for acid3 is a html page that uses whatever text rendering your browser renders it in
  688. # [22:57] <Pavlov_> one could argue you should require kerning
  689. # [22:57] <Pavlov_> but i don't think antialiasing should matter
  690. # [22:57] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  691. # [22:59] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  692. # [22:59] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  693. # [23:03] <hsivonen> Pavlov_: the text does say "pixel for pixel", though.
  694. # [23:04] <Pavlov_> pixel to pixel to the reference
  695. # [23:04] <Pavlov_> which you have to view in the same browser
  696. # [23:05] <hsivonen> whoa! I didn't realize the reference wasn't a bitmap :-)
  697. # [23:06] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-b9fd20c673c83d4d)
  698. # [23:07] * Quits: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  699. # [23:10] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@72.14.224.1) ("The computer fell asleep")
  700. # [23:11] * Joins: epeus (n=KevinMar@72.14.224.1)
  701. # [23:12] * Joins: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  702. # [23:12] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  703. # [23:14] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  704. # [23:17] <hsivonen> which browser fails test 99 sanity?
  705. # [23:18] <annevk> IE
  706. # [23:19] <hsivonen> somehow I'm not surprised
  707. # [23:22] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  708. # [23:23] * Joins: andersca_ (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-9420e95152e91753)
  709. # [23:25] * Quits: andersca_ (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-9420e95152e91753) (Client Quit)
  710. # [23:31] * othermaciej is now known as om_hack
  711. # [23:34] * Quits: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  712. # [23:35] * Joins: andersca_ (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-278133f37e143b07)
  713. # [23:36] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  714. # [23:37] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  715. # [23:38] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Nick collision from services.)
  716. # [23:38] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  717. # [23:38] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@17.255.105.195) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  718. # [23:40] * Parts: webben (n=benh@91.84.250.9)
  719. # [23:44] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  720. # [23:45] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  721. # [23:45] <annevk> MULTIFAIL, nice
  722. # [23:47] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  723. # [23:51] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  724. # [23:51] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-156-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  725. # [23:56] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-205-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  726. # [23:59] * qwert666__ is now known as qwert666
  727. # [23:59] <om_hack> what's MULTIFAIL
  728. # Session Close: Thu Mar 27 00:00:00 2008

The end :)